Re: [tw5] Re: Stroll updates

[Brady77]

Yes @David Gifford, into the "Markdown" seciton just below the existing 
hint "Autocompletion for linking doesn't work in my Markdown tiddlers!". 
Thanks. Petr

On Wednesday, May 27, 2020 at 5:41:50 PM UTC+2, David Gifford wrote:
>
> I just want to be clear before I add these instructions: this change to 
> the markdown instructions would be in addition to the currently existing 
> instructions at https://giffmex.org/stroll/stroll.html#Troubleshooting, 
> correct?
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 10:35 AM Brady77 > 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi @Saq Imtiaz
>>
>> Now the link renders correctly! @David Gifford It would be nice if you 
>> add this note to the Stroll instructions (to edit the shadow tidder as 
>> well). Thank you all for your help. 
>>
>> On Wednesday, May 27, 2020 at 5:20:22 PM UTC+2, Saq Imtiaz wrote:
>>>
>>> @Brady77 the problem is that [[..]] is not valid markdown syntax for a 
>>> link.
>>>
>>> To enable that format for a link follow these steps:
>>>
>>> edit the following shadow tiddler:
>>> $:/config/markdown/renderWikiTextPragma
>>>
>>> and replace the text with:
>>>
>>> \rules only html image macrocallinline syslink transcludeinline 
>>> wikilink filteredtranscludeblock macrocallblock transcludeblock prettylink
>>>
>>> This is a list of rules as to what wikisyntax should be parsed from 
>>> markdown tiddlers after the markdown parser has gone through it. Note the 
>>> last one, prettylink. That is what you want and is not enabled by default.
>>>
>>> @David would it be worth it to offer a markdown ready version of Stroll?
>>>
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[tw5] Re: Stroll updates

[Brady77]

Hi @Saq Imtiaz

Now the link renders correctly! @David Gifford It would be nice if you add 
this note to the Stroll instructions (to edit the shadow tidder as well). 
Thank you all for your help. 

On Wednesday, May 27, 2020 at 5:20:22 PM UTC+2, Saq Imtiaz wrote:
>
> @Brady77 the problem is that [[..]] is not valid markdown syntax for a 
> link.
>
> To enable that format for a link follow these steps:
>
> edit the following shadow tiddler:
> $:/config/markdown/renderWikiTextPragma
>
> and replace the text with:
>
> \rules only html image macrocallinline syslink transcludeinline wikilink 
> filteredtranscludeblock macrocallblock transcludeblock prettylink
>
> This is a list of rules as to what wikisyntax should be parsed from 
> markdown tiddlers after the markdown parser has gone through it. Note the 
> last one, prettylink. That is what you want and is not enabled by default.
>
> @David would it be worth it to offer a markdown ready version of Stroll?
>

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[tw5] Re: Stroll updates

[Brady77]

Well, I do think so. Saved and reloaded. Not sure if "refresh" means 
something else...

Thanks.

On Wednesday, May 27, 2020 at 5:05:06 PM UTC+2, David Gifford wrote:
>
> Hi Petr
>
> Did you refresh your file? That is a plugin change. I may need to make the 
> instructions clearer. Does refreshing your file work?
>
>
>

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[tw5] Re: Stroll updates

[Brady77]

Sorry, just edited my previous post.

P

On Wednesday, May 27, 2020 at 5:01:41 PM UTC+2, David Gifford wrote:
>
> no screenshot?
>
>

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[tw5] Re: Stroll updates

[Brady77]

Hi David,

thanks for your release. I have a problem with the official Markdown plugin 
and links. Following your instructions I made a system tiddler $:/
config/EditorTypeMappings/text/x-markdown, autocomplete works, but the link 
does not render correctly (see the screenshot). Any suggestions?

Thanks.

Petr

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[tw5] Re: Show tags as full path

[Brady77]

Jed Carty wrote:

Because a tiddler may have more than one parent tag it isn't possible do 
> this simply.
>

Hmm, understand. I thought tags are strictly hierarchical in structure. 
Like a tree.
 

> You can have something like the breadcrumbs I put on 
> inmysocks.tiddlyspot.com where it shows all paths to the root. 
>

I was browsing your wiki a little bit to see how it works and came across 
this tiddler . I seems 
that only one of the two tags got into the breadcrumbs...

Thanks, Jed.

Petr

>

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[tw5] Re: Show tags as full path

[Brady77]

Sorry for not being specific: I meant to show full path on the tag oval 
inside the tiddler header. Instead of "Arcade" pill there will 
"Game/Arcade" tag oval.


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[tw5] Show tags as full path

[Brady77]

Say I have a tiddler "Galaxian" tagged with "Arcade". Then the "Arcade" tag 
is tagged with "Game". I wish I could see all the parent tags (up to the 
root) with every tag used. Thanks.

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Re: [tw5] Re: [TW5] preventing tiddler-links to break by using ids as reference that translate into titles

[Brady77]

Hi Vytas,

I will not comment on the 'technical' side of your solution because I'm 
just an end-user. Nevertheless: in this particular case I would probably 
wait for Jeremy's decision. I'm trying to avoid any direct links between 
tiddlers, now. In other words I'm following Tony's recommendation to use 
tags, only.

Please forgive me my openness but I think that in this phase a birds-eye 
overview or high-level description of your approach to this issue (what, 
why, how, pros, cons) would be more beneficial to coding something not yet 
agreed upon. My reasons for posting this are as follows: not everyone in 
this discussion is a coder (including me) so I/we cannot comment on it even 
if the issue touches my workflow significantly. Another problem is that my 
current wiki may become corrupt soon since I'm trying any proposed 
solutions above (with backups, for sure) without understanding the impact 
on system if combined. 

Thank you for your comments and the proposal.

Petr

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Re: [tw5] Re: Preparing for v5.1.16

[Brady77]

I'm really sorry to hear that, Jeremy. Any inflammation that affects the 
joints area is extremely painful (from my own experience, unfortunately). 
After weeks of agony I luckily found an effective treatment by combining 
prescribed "Western" anti-inflammatory drugs with Traditional Chinese 
Medicine herbs. Should you need some information, drop me a private 
message. Wish you quick relief.

Petr

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Re: [tw5] Re: [TW5] preventing tiddler-links to break by using ids as reference that translate into titles

[Brady77]

@Jeremy, @PMario, @Mark S.

Thank you very much, Jeremy.

According the uni-link plugin: I was using the uni-link macro from the 
bundle, only. Why? It "just" gives you more options for referencing given 
tiddler. In case you change tiddler alias (for whatever reason you may 
have) you end up with broken links, again. I like the idea of aliases but 
only if they would allow for renaming as well. Should Jeremy come with a 
"structural solution" for this topic, aliases may be considered, too.

We have now three components of current workarounds:

   - uni-link plugin (PMario)
   - slant-01 theme (PMario)
   - some direct edits (Mark S.)

What I do miss a lot is a support for captions / subtitles while searching 
or filtering. Is there anyone to help with this, too? Thanks.

Petr

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[tw5] Re: [TW5] preventing tiddler-links to break by using ids as reference that translate into titles

[Brady77]

@PMario
Thank you Mario for all your comments and your plugin. To add a quick note: 
searching and filtering seem the most critical, now. There is no workaround 
I can imagine that can help here without touching the code. Don't know 
about transclusions since I don't use them yet.

Can I (as non-coder) be of any help here? I doubt, but let me know.

Petr

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[tw5] Re: [TW5] preventing tiddler-links to break by using ids as reference that translate into titles

[Brady77]

Hi Tony,

TonyM wrote:

I am confident it is only if you use [[embedded links]] or 
> {{transclusions}} that you are likely to come across this problem because 
> you can rename titles with no loss. 
>

Yes, you are right. Those are the critical spots.
 

>
> A Common technique I use is the new here so lets say you have a "Security" 
> subject, go to the Security tiddler and go new here to add security items, 
> or tag them with Security. By always having a tag of the "parent" tiddler 
> at a minimum you will always be able to list items so tagged. Renaming them 
> changes nothing, except if they are listed in alphabetical order. You can 
> also use the list field and a drag-able list such as a dragable table of 
> Contents. Most of the time I access technical info I first search "titles" 
> and "Text" then open even a related tiddler, then use the tags to refine 
> the tiddlers I am looking at. Eg; I may search for Static IP Address, find 
> a tiddler that mentions their use and is tagged security, open the Security 
> tag/tiddler and review that list to find "Using Static Routes" (for 
> Security).
>

What you proposed here is actually the main reason why I decided to open 
the Faceted search 
 
thread. We had a fruitful discussion with other members on this topic - 
which will hopefully lead to some improvements as well. I feel that both 
the links and tags create the best context for me. Thank you for your hints 
and inspiration.

Petr

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Re: [tw5] Re: [TW5] preventing tiddler-links to break by using ids as reference that translate into titles

[Brady77]

Hi Jeremy again,

Jeremy Ruston wrote:

OK, you’re describing what I think of as the “GUID approach”. It’s a nice 
> pattern, and definitely resonates with a lot of users. I don’t see it as 
> requiring a major change to the TW core design, though: it’s predominantly 
> high level UI entities that would need to change (eg the edit template). 
> Personally, I’m not a huge fan because of the unreadability of link 
> targets, but I’d like TW5 to support it for those that want it.
>

I really appreciate how you approached this issue. Part of user-base has 
found ways around this and don't consider it painful at all. Nevertheless 
you are still listening (to novice voices) and are open to find some 
solution. I would like to kindly ask you for driving (managing) the 
changes. There are many good reasons: you are the father of TiddlyWiki, the 
architect, you can balance between the pros/cons and see the consequences.

This feels like a false dichotomy. “Changing the system” implies that it 
> wouldn’t work in the way that it does currently, which would be a problem 
> from a backwards compatibility perspective. Perhaps the option is better 
> expressed as “augment the system so it can work as described above”.
>

Yes, I know. I intentionally created this high level of contrast to push 
this further. Honestly, I went trough many similar discussions (as @PMario 
points here as well) and get completely lost - there was no real solution, 
ever. Even if many members tried their best to solve it reasonably 
(including you). I felt internally (this is solely my own opinion) that it 
is caused by missing support at the core - the basic building blocks lack 
some functionality. In another words: all the workarounds were trying (with 
some degree of success) to fix something that the core was supposed to do 
by design. Once again - I have no technical knowledge - this is solely 
based on what I read from discussions and what I had a chance to try as a 
solution. I'm telling you this with full respect to your excellent job and 
the brilliant idea that lasts for years. 

But if you want to focus on implementation difficulty, option (a) touches 
> many components of the system while (b) is a self-contained subsystem with 
> well defined inputs and outputs. My experience suggests that the complexity 
> of a software task depends primarily on the number of entities involved, 
> and so I would be inclined to think of option (b) as being less difficult.
>

To ease this discussion: like from a fairy-tale: "Which path you choose is 
solely in your hands. We are with you, captain! The community is hanging on 
your lips to follow you."
 
Best wishes to you, Jeremy.

Petr

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[tw5] Re: Faceted search

[Brady77]

@Miroslav Kalous
Hi Miroslav (your name seems to have roots in Czechia). Thank you for 
sharing your workflow, problems and expectations. Please have a look at the 
next few lines and let me know how you feel about my proposal. I think it 
may help you as well.

@TonyM
Thank you Tony for your detailed description. We are probably trying to 
achieve similar classification. Since both you and me have different needs 
we are using different terms. But the logic behind seems to be comparable. 
Do I understand you correctly that we can use other tiddler fields (beside 
the tags) to create the classification, too? Can I expect the same behavior 
from those extra fields as what the tags offer now (by using GenTags)? 
Please have a look below, too.

===

I'm no coder so bear with me. This is my first mockup attempt ever: no code 
behind (just some pictures). I would like to apply for your help to bring 
something like this to life. @Jed Carty has something similar /see his 
comment above/: 

1) Few notes to start with

   - I was trying to *reuse *most of the components that already exist.
   - From what I know the tags are organized into *tree structure *where 
   just one parent is allowed. There is a root (/) from where the tree 
   expands. 
   - For reference please open the "*Advanced search*" tiddler by clicking 
   on the "magnifying glass" icon (see right-side panel). 
   
2) New search tab called "Facets"
All the features are packed within one new tab called "*Facets*" to keep 
itsimple. Most of the functions come from the existing "Filter" tab. On the 
right side of the tiddler you can find *Related tags* tree (expandable) - 
similar to this one 
. 
After you open the tab for the first time (no user input yet) the tree 
lists all the user-defined tags that exists in the Wiki. By clicking on the 
right arrow you can *explore the tree* as deep as you wish.



2) Narrowing the context by using the tree
*Clicking on the item* within the tree it pushes the *tag into the input 
field* on the right. There is a slight difference on the rendering of tag 
pills: they show the *full path to the root* (I chose the right slash "/" 
as delimiter - more on this later). After the tag has been successfully 
added the *filter is automatically applied*: 

   - The area below the input field *gets populated with filtered tiddlers*. 
   Below each output line there is a *list of tags* that are applied on the 
   tiddler (smaller version of the pills). 
   - The list consists of tiddlers that were found *on the selected tag and 
   all child tags* at the same time (a recursive search). There is a *logical 
   AND* between the tags in the filter.
   - Tags tree on the right shrinks down to show just a portion of its 
   initial structure: the *tree lists tags* that can be found *only on 
   filtered tiddlers* (unique items, indeed)

Please have a look on the second slide: 


Say I want to show all tiddlers tagged with "Software". I go into the tree 
and click on the tag "Software". A new pill "/it/software" appears on the 
input field. Below I can see filtered tiddlers. The tree on the right 
changed the structure to reflect the filter, too. Similarly I added another 
tag "/art/ to the filter. 

3) Changing the context by using input field
The input field allows for direct input, too. This allow for:

   - *Adding *new tag to the list
   
After typing first two letters into the input field a *modal *appears. This 
modal performs a *full-text search within tags* and shows a *list of tags* 
to choose from. I decided for more flexibility here to allow for any tags 
(not just those that are relevant to the actual filter applied). If 
choosing a "non-relevant" tag from the list you may end with "No tiddlers 
found". But it is OK since you can remove or edit the other tags in the 
filter easily (see next bullet points)


   - *Removing *tag from the list

Each tag pill in the input field has a little *cross symbol* attached which 
*removes 
the tag from the filter*. 


   - *Editing *tag in the list

You can also *use your keyboard *within the input field (backspace or 
delete keys, letters, right/slash symbol) to *directly modify listed tags*. 
After the cursor enters certain tag pill it *changes into plain-text* so 
you can edit (remove) it freely. While editing a *modal appears* to offer a 
list by full-text search (similarly to adding new tag).



4) Adding tags from the filtered list of tiddlers
 Another way how to add the 

Re: [tw5] Re: [TW5] preventing tiddler-links to break by using ids as reference that translate into titles

[Brady77]

Jeremy Ruston wrote:
>
>
>1. Can you compare the difficulty of
>   - preparing a new release of TiddlyWiki that deals with tiddlers 
>   (and other building blocks) as objects that can be referenced 
> independently 
>   on the user text-fields? Same functionality as I mentioned above while 
>   talking about Airtable interface.
>
> Are you asking about the ability to refer to a tiddler by a field other 
> than it’s title? 
>

Yes. Let me explain it by workflow. Say I start with a new TiddlyWiki:

1. Create my first tiddler with no title

1a. Hit the plus button

1b. Leave the title field empty

- by empty I mean nothing there - no prefilled title

1c. Type "My first lovely tiddler" into the textarea

1d. Save and close the tiddler

Notes:

- behind the scenes the tiddler gets some system values like an internal 
unique ID, created time-stamp, modified time-stamp, owner ID, last editor 
ID (you name it)

 

2. Want to see what I have now in my Wiki

2a. Go to right-side panel

2b. Visit the list of recent tiddlers

- there is one row on the list with title "*(empty)*" 

Notes: 

- the word "empty" in parentheses and italic indicates that there is no 
tiddler title filled in

 

3. Create another tiddler with a link to the first

3a. Leave the title field empty

3b. Go to the textarea and click the link button (or Ctrl-l)

- the modal shows me input field for searching

- below the input field there is a section called "5 recent tiddlers" with 
one row listed as *(empty)*

3d. Choose the row with title *(empty)*

- the textarea has now a clickable link shown as *(empty)*

3e. Type "My second lovely tiddler" on a row below the link 

3f. Save and close the tiddler

 

4. Revisit the list of recent tiddlers

- there are two rows now

- each row has the same title *(empty)*

 

5. Now I want to find my first tiddler via advanced search

5a. Click the magnifier icon from the right-side panel

5b. Go to the Standard search tab and type "lovely" there

- I get two rows with title *(empty)*

- oops: what to choose? no way to distinguish between those two tiddlers 
just by title *(empty)*

- have to make some corrections...

 

 6. Want to change the title of the first tiddler

6a. Select the tiddler at the bottom of the recent tiddlers list

- should be the first one that I added to my Wiki

6b. Open the tiddler for editing and enter "First one" into the title

6e. Save and close the tiddler

 

 7. Review the link in my second tiddler and change the title as well

7a. Select the only *(empty)* title from the recent tiddlers list

- the link title in the text area has changed already to "First one"

- clicking the link bring me to the tiddler First one - nothing is broken 

7b. Open second tiddler for editing and change the title from nothing to 
"Second"

7c. Save and close the second tiddler

  

>From the user perspective the "key" field remains the tiddler title. Output 
from important functions like searching are filtering remains the same: the 
tiddler title. But internally (for instance links between tiddlers) the 
system uses the tiddler ID for the URI. Should the interface be more geeky 
while creating links to avoid the link button, there could be an autofill 
function as you start typing [[. 

>
>- fixing broken links and functions (filters, lists, macros etc) on 
>   the fly after the tiddler ID changed
>
> Do you mean by using search and replace?
>

No, Jeremy, I'm referring to the auto-correction processes that must run 
behind the scenes each time I decide to change the tag or tiddler title. 
You said that it is very difficult to parse all the wiki tiddlers correctly 
so that only relevant parts are auto-magically changed to reflect the new 
title. Tags are probably much easier to change than the titles. 

So I wanted to know your expert opinion: What is more difficult? 1) Change 
the system so it works as described by the workflow above or 2) Try to find 
the correct algorithm to auto-magically correct what is broken.

Thanks for your time, Jeremy.

Petr

PS: I'm well aware of all the workarounds that already exists (including 
the uni-link plugin, special themes etc). I just want to know whether a 
system change isn't more robust, user-friendly (avoiding errors and 
confusions, installing special plugins), simpler, consistent and 
straightforward and long-lasting than workarounds.

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[tw5] Re: [TW5] preventing tiddler-links to break by using ids as reference that translate into titles

[Brady77]

@PMario: 

I spent some time with the uni-link plugin to see how it works for me. 
First I have to say that it is very close to be a good workaround for 
"broken links" problem. I have a couple of questions. 

   1. In the advanced search
  - Can I use caption / subtitle values in the standard search tab?
  - Is it possible to display the results from the filter as a list of 
  captions / subtitles?
   2. I tried your "stant-01" theme as well. 
  - Is possible in the edit mode to show the tiddler title as a field 
  at the bottom and hide it at the top?
   
@ Mark.S
Point 2 is probably close to what you have mentioned earlier as well.

@ TonyM
Thanks for offering your help as well. I'm building my personal knowledge 
base to so I can be more effective at my job. I work as an network engineer 
and I'm dealing with quite complex information. Partly I have to deeply 
understand some networking topics, partly to remember some workflows 
(tutorials, how-tos, guides etc.). This knowledge changes quite often as 
the technology evolves and so I need my tiddlers to reflect those changes 
as well. This is especially true while studying something new: at the 
beginning I decide for a name of tiddler and later I realize that this name 
is completely wrong (just becase I knew almost nothing about the topic at 
the beginning). To put it simple: I need some flexibility to only at 
modifying the text field, but also by naming the tiddlers. I can certainly 
live with the uni-link plugin regarding the "broken-links" problem. But 
there are some important functions that lack the support for captions / 
subtitles (see my questions at the beginning). So we can discuss it further.

@Jeremy Ruston
Hi Jeremy! 

   1. Sorry I didn't get what you proposed (as well as @Miroslav Kalous). 
   What problem does it solve? Maybe some example will help. Thanks.
   2. Can you compare the difficulty of
  - preparing a new release of TiddlyWiki that deals with tiddlers (and 
  other building blocks) as objects that can be referenced independently on 
  the user text-fields? Same functionality as I mentioned above while 
talking 
  about Airtable interface.
  - fixing broken links and functions (filters, lists, macros etc) on 
  the fly after the tiddler ID changed
   3. Could you explain in more detail what is the difference between 
   changing tiddler title and tag name? What if I use a tiddler as a tag?

Thank you.

Petr

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[tw5] Re: [TW5] preventing tiddler-links to break by using ids as reference that translate into titles

[Brady77]

@TiddlyTweeter wrote:

>
> Part of the issue is the idea of creating a Tiddler gets easily 
> conceptually confused with creating a data record. This is something I have 
> written at length about--that TiddlyWiki is NOT a "card-index"--though you 
> can make it look like one. 
>

Well, Josiah, I wasn't the one who came with the idea of creating a 
TiddlyWiki. Probably the best here would be asking Jeremy Ruston what was 
his initial vision and the intended usage of tiddlers and other basic 
building blocks. From your responses I feel I'm crossing some borders of 
fair-play when questioning basic functionality of the system. I really 
don't want to point at some *dysfunction *of the system that arises 
completely from *my own misuse of TiddlyWiki*. I'm well aware how much 
effort and time you spend to have a perfect system.  

Usually when you create a record in software it creates a unique protected 
> ID for a new record separate from whatever its user fillable fields add.


This is exactly the behavior that I expected from TiddlyWiki. Let's have a 
look at the Airtable  app for instance that I use 
a lot for tabular data: Whenever you create a new record (a row in a table) 
it gets an internal ID that you don't see and cannot access for 
editing. You can even create an empty row in a table (that is perfectly 
correct)  and then create relationships from other tables just by pointing 
to the row. At the same time each table has a "key" column that is used to 
simplify the linking of records, searching or filtering. It is a fully 
functional structure to be modified to my needs. If you overwrite the value 
in the "key" cell than all the linked records in other tables are 
automatically updated as well. 
 

> Not so with Tiddlers. The "title" IS the ID. On the one hand its flexibly 
> lightweight. On the other hand it adds complications. Especially if you 
> need extensive inter-linking and need to change titling as you go along. As 
> far as I understand it, within the current basic architecture, 
> fundamentally changing that behaviour is not possible. So its more about 
> accepting it or finding ways round it.
>

I see. Maybe some quick analysis by the system architect will help to 
express 

   - the amount of work to bring this flexibility
   - the consequences on your plugins etc.

Thanks again for spending your time and the patience you have with me, 
Josiah (and others as well).

Petr

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[tw5] Re: [TW5] preventing tiddler-links to break by using ids as reference that translate into titles

[Brady77]

Jed Carty wrote:
>
> I don't really see the need for it to be immutable, so that point isn't 
> universally agreed upon. There are a number of things in tiddlywiki that 
> are done by overwriting a tiddler based on the name. Almost any time you 
> change a setting that has a default value in the core you create a new 
> tiddler that has the same name as the core tiddler. 
>

You are right Jed. It was premature to state that. 
 

> While tiddlywiki can be used as a database it isn't a database. For 
> everything I do relationships between tiddlers are handled using tags and 
> other fields to generate the needed links or relationships, the names 
> almost never come into it.
>

According to the official documentation (Philosophy of Tiddlers 
 and Structuring 
TiddlyWiki ) there are 
five basic building blocks to structure the Wiki:

   1. Tiddlers  - only 
   field that is required is the title field
   2. TiddlerLinks  - link 
   to a tiddler by title [[Tiddler Title]]
   3. Tagging  - "A tag is in fact just a 
   tiddler (or a potential tiddler), and it can have tags of its own. You can 
   add any number of tags to the same tiddler." - If tag is internally a 
   tiddler then 1. applies
   4. Title Lists  - "A title list is 
   a line of text that presents one or more tiddler titles" - is based on 
   tiddler titles
   5. DataTiddlers  - named 
   properties are accessed by referencing the data tiddler title again

I didn't examine any important functions (like searching etc) but so far it 
is obvious that the tiddler title should not be modified not just because 
of the links, but because of other building blocks as well. It is true at 
the same time that there are special cases when it is desirable to change 
or set the tiddler title (as Josiah stated above).

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[tw5] Re: [TW5] preventing tiddler-links to break by using ids as reference that translate into titles

[Brady77]

Josiah wrote:

I mean, you don't want to backtrack now to a new architectural design do 
> you? 
>

...whatever that sorts this problem I take it
 

> But I do think Jed's point remains true and that some of the issue could 
> be avoided by understanding the architecture of ID's in TW before starting. 
> BUT which you could NOT do because you didn't yet know enough. It is a sort 
> of puzzle. But I think it comes out okay in the end.
>

This is what I wanted to express at the beginning with the analogy to the 
dam on the river. I started to build the Wiki as my note-taking system and 
it broke in a way that I wasn't able to fix it. If you change the title 
once how can you recall it's title a few days later? And I changed many 
titles many times. What I ended with was a mess. Since this is the core 
functionality (linking tiddlers together) I'm still convinced that this is 
a major problem of the system core (or design if you want). 

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[tw5] Re: [TW5] preventing tiddler-links to break by using ids as reference that translate into titles

[Brady77]

Hi Mark,


If you're using the uni-link plugin, it will automatically change how your 
> links are rendered to match either the caption or the subtitle of the 
> linked tiddler. You can then leave the tiddler alone, never renaming it but 
> only changing "caption" or "subtitle" if you want to change how it looks 
> when linked.
>

This is great as it partially solves the problem. I'll give the plugin a 
try a will let you know it works for me.
 

>
> Basically, it allows you to use the title as a true immutable ID, and the 
> caption or subtitle as the title. 
>

How is this ID generated by the uni-link plugin? Or should I provide one by 
hand (from https://www.uuidgenerator.net/ for example?) Or use a system 
that you suggested above (  [])?
 

> It's a partial solution because it doesn't fix existing broken links. You 
> will have to find and fix them. 
>

No big deal with my notes so far cause I just started to use TiddlyWiki.
 

> There's also nothing to prevent you from forgetting and changing a tiddler 
> title. The title of the tiddler that appears will be different than the 
> title someone clicked on. Perhaps the ViewTemplate could be modified to 
> also use the caption or subtitle, reducing confusion.
>

I hope for some guide to help me with this. I wish to share the Wiki with 
other users and cannot imagine to explain everyone that this first editable 
field is NO-NO editable field that breaks all.

Everyone so far admitted that the tiddler should be identified by an 
*immutable* ID (call it how you want) to keep Wiki relationships 
operational. Why not to change the system so it is the default when 
starting a new Tiddlywiki? We should seriously discuss all the PROS and 
CONS.

Thank you, too.
 

>
> -- Mark 
>
> On Tuesday, April 17, 2018 at 8:28:44 AM UTC-7, Brady77 wrote:
>>
>> Hi Josiah,
>>
>> I appreciate your willingness to help. Let's say I will generate some 
>> unique ID for tiddler title. Next I use the "caption" field to as a real 
>> tiddler title. Could you tell me what files to change so I can use it as 
>> you suggest? I'm afraid that current tiddler title is hardcoded in many 
>> places. I'm also awaiting Mario's reply regarding the "partial" solution by 
>> using the "caption" field.
>>
>> Petr
>>
>

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[tw5] Re: [TW5] preventing tiddler-links to break by using ids as reference that translate into titles

[Brady77]

Hi Josiah,

I appreciate your willingness to help. Let's say I will generate some 
unique ID for tiddler title. Next I use the "caption" field to as a real 
tiddler title. Could you tell me what files to change so I can use it as 
you suggest? I'm afraid that current tiddler title is hardcoded in many 
places. I'm also awaiting Mario's reply regarding the "partial" solution by 
using the "caption" field.

Petr

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[tw5] Re: [TW5] preventing tiddler-links to break by using ids as reference that translate into titles

[Brady77]

>
> A tiddler is an object with an internal id, it is the title field. You can 
> add fields to it without changing the identity of the tiddler. Once you 
> change the title of the tiddler you are changing the internal id.
>
> This same argument has been made many times and there has never been a 
> solution presented that doesn't have the same problems as using a title. 
> You need to have a unique identifier on each tiddler, to link to a tiddler 
> you need this id. Regardless of how you twist things around this id is 
> equivalent to the title. I think that in most cases it is much more 
> convenient to have this id be a human readable one.
>

Thanks Jed for your opinion. I think that the internal ID is nothing a user 
is allowed to modify. This should be completely hidden from user interface. 
This is actually my only problem: I changed the internal ID of an object 
but it wasn't my intention at all. I just wanted to edit a text field and 
ended with broken links.

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[tw5] Re: [TW5] preventing tiddler-links to break by using ids as reference that translate into titles

[Brady77]

 

>  
>
Hi,
>> any solution to the problem?
>>
>
> partially. .. I think it can be solved with plugins now. ... My unilink 
> plugin may be an option. 
>

Please can you elaborate on "partially"? What areas of the TiddlyWiki are 
not covered by using your Unilink plugin?
 

>  
>
>> I don't believe that Felix and me are the only TiddlyWiki users who are 
>> struggling with renaming the tiddlers (or tags).
>>
>
> TiddlyWiki contains a new mechanism now, that "batch renames" all existing 
> tags, if you rename a tiddler title. .. So if you change a tag-tiddler the 
> core will do the batch processing. 
>
> This doesn't change links like: [[tag-name-here]] in tiddler text. ... But 
> if you rename your tiddlers a lot you will have a lot of 
> [[prettylinks|tag-name-tiddler]] anyway. Otherwise your text will be hard 
> to read. ... The alias-plugin, which is part of uni-link will help your 
> here. -> No renaming needed!
>

I'm confused here. What is the difference in renaming the tiddler or the 
tag? Tag is just a label, isn't is? So changing it should be super simple = 
there are no links...
 

>  
>
>> Let's go to the roots of TiddlyWiki that positions as a *system of small 
>> pieces of related information*. How does is play with such a basic 
>> operation called "change tiddler title" by breaking all references? There 
>> is probably something I have missed at the beginning but it seems to me 
>> like building a dam on a river from sugar cubes: you have a solid structure 
>> just until you fill it with water...
>>
>
> There are many users, where the existing mechanism works well, for a 
> really long time. ... 
>
> I know, that naming tiddlers is hard! .. That's why I use uni-link ;) and 
> a theme, that doesn't use tiddler titles as a heading. see: 
> https://wikilabs.github.io/editions/slant-01/  My tiddler names look 
> like: this-is-a-tiddler-name, which I don't change anymore. ... 
>
> I use "real headings" at the tiddler body, which allows me to use the 
> tiddler title as an "index" and I can change the heading as often as I 
> want. "caption" and "subtitle" are very handy here.
>
> This works well with the above mentioned plugins, which don't break TWs, 
> that don't use the plugins, if you copy your texts. (but the functionality 
> will be different!)
>
 
So you implemented something what Jeremy suggested in this thread above: 
"...users should be able to use GUIDs for tiddler titles if it suits their 
use case. The missing piece is a way of linking to a tiddler by it's 
GUID/title, but having a specified field displayed as the text of the 
link.". This is exact opposite to what Felix'es suggests by using "IDs" for 
GUIDs. 
 

>  
>
>> Is it a technical problem?
>>
>
> Partially yes. The whole core javascript code and UI uses the tiddler 
> title as a heading.  because it's easy for new users.
>

Well, I am new to TiddlyWiki. After few edits to my Wiki I ended with an 
error: "Missing tiddler "XYZ" – click to create". I cannot agree that it is 
something what makes new users life easier. I thought I have a centrally 
managed system in one HTML file that encourages me to create many tiddlers 
to be connected by links. What I have now is a copy of world wide web 
system in my PC: a mess of 404 error links where only Google robots have 
the power to get some relevant data out of it. TiddlyWiki = big data?
 

>  
>
>> Or a too much work to change the system?
>>
>
> Yes. ... If you really want to have it in a different way, without 
> regressions in functionality, you better start from scratch. It would be 
> much less work. 
>  
>
>> Or a backward compatibility problem?
>>
> A combination of? 
>>
>
> Yes. ... 
>  
>
>> Should we create a plan to untangle it? 
>>
>
> IMO it's a plugin- and not a core-problem. 
>

This is a core problem for sure. Tiddler should be an object with an 
internal ID. Just like in any document database (or NoSQL database). You 
can add fields to it with values but the object doesn't change it's 
identity by changing a field value. 
 

>
> have fun!
> mario
>

Thanks Mario for your informative response.  

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[tw5] Re: [TW5] preventing tiddler-links to break by using ids as reference that translate into titles

[Brady77]

Hi,

any solution to the problem? I don't believe that Felix and me are the only 
TiddlyWiki users who are struggling with renaming the tiddlers (or tags). 
Let's go to the roots of TiddlyWiki that positions as a *system of small 
pieces of related information*. How does is play with such a basic 
operation called "change tiddler title" by breaking all references? There 
is probably something I have missed at the beginning but it seems to me 
like building a dam on a river from sugar cubes: you have a solid structure 
just until you fill it with water...

Is it a technical problem? Or a too much work to change the system? Or a 
backward compatibility problem? A combination of? Should we create a plan 
to untangle it? 

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[tw] Re: Faceted search

[Brady77]

Another bold idea: what if the *storyview* will be an *intelligent list*, 
that get populated with tiddlers based on the faceted search output? You 
may say:

"Hold on! Tiddlywiki has much more to offer than tags: there are *links* as 
the first-class citizens as well as *fields* to create a structure. If I 
click on link a tiddler gets into the storyview. It will collide with your 
faceted search."

Well, i think it can be work together. Imagine that you add "pin" to the 
top of tiddler. A pinned tidddler will not be affected by the filtering. If 
you don't need it anymore, you just close (or unpin) the tiddler.

What do you think?

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[tw] Re: Faceted search

[Brady77]

I would like to discuss another problem that is directly related to the 
search-and-filter topic: I find it difficult to work with hierarchy of 
tags. What i would like to have is a simple and intuitive 
"drag-and-drop" interface, where 
- on the left side will be a tags tree (expandable if you want)
- in the middle there will be the existing storyview
- on the right side the existing info panel (with Tiddlymap if you want)

Say I need to add context by categorizing: I just find my first relevant 
tag in the left tree and just drag-and-drop it on the tiddler in the 
middle. The same should be possible in the other direction (drag a tiddler 
and drop it onto a tag in the tree).

Double-clicking on a tag in the tree will result in adding this tag into 
the above mentioned search-and-filter field (probably on top? - depends on 
Jed's implementation).

Reordering tags within the tree: say I want a subcategory to go one level 
up. Simple drag-and-drop will do.

Regarding the tags tree on the left: what do you think about having a 
"switch" on the top of the tree:

   - If the switch is in the "off" position than all the tags in the tree 
   will be accessible
   - If the switch is "on" than the tree will be show only tags that are 
   used on tiddlers currently listed in the storyview

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[tw] Re: Faceted search

[Brady77]

Hi Tony,

I can see your point. And have to admit that I was focused on tags, only. 
You say that a tag is (technically) just another metadata "field:value" 
pair. Sure, however there is something special about tags: you can find it 
on top of tiddlers with distinct graphics. People tend to use them first. 
If we wanted to add another filtering criteria (beside "keywords" for 
fulltext search and "tags" for category selection) it will be certainly a 
benefit. We should be cautious to keep the interface simple and 
straightforward for regular users (not to discourage them by complexity). 
So some sort of customization of the user interface regarding the filtering 
fields will be great (in plugin settings, for instance). We should discuss 
this with Jed.

Can you elaborate on some of your points? Especially what is the difference 
between "category", "subject", "keyword"? Maybe some examples will help. 
What reason do you have for such a structure?

Thanks.

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[tw] Re: Faceted search

[Brady77]

Thanks, Jed. I did try your interface. Your basic idea (i.e. filtering by 
related tags) is exactly what I am looking for. Should you find the 
mentioned workflow more user-friendly I would be really glad if you can 
bring it to life. I cannot help you with coding, but will be at hand to 
discuss it further / test it.

Thank you Diego for your support. You have read my mind. Every note that I 
take is just a waste of time if I cannot find it within seconds. What is 
also interesting with the proposed workflow: while you filter your contexts 
/by adding and removing related tags/, you may uncover relations that *you 
didn't expect to be there*. "Exploring" your Wiki is probably close-fitting 
term for my workflow. An adventurous expedition while you play with related 
tags. Just a side note: Tiddlywiki is a very powerful system not only for 
storing data, but for searching and filtering as well. The only problem is 
that it is *too complicated* for me to exploit its full potential. 
Thankfully, there is generous community to help me. Maybe the TiddlyWiki 
documentation should exist in two versions: first one for regular users 
like me with little (or none) technical skills and the second version for 
coders like Jed that can make it even better. Diego I will be happy if you 
add your ideas regarding the interface to make it even better.

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