Re: [tw5] Re: [Comment] My Ongoing Irritations with Google Groups

[TW Tones]

Soren,
My mistake.

Tones

On Tuesday, 8 June 2021 at 11:09:47 UTC+10 Soren Bjornstad wrote:

> Tones, I think you are confusing Discord and Discourse as happened earlier 
> up the thread 
> . 
> They are totally unrelated and Discourse is for long-form writing and 
> discussions , not chat.
>
> On Monday, June 7, 2021 at 6:32:51 PM UTC-5 TW Tones wrote:
>
>> ha Ha "bad sMellers," Totally agree, I am one of them, not to mention 
>> typos
>>
>> Seriously being able to edit the top post was a great way of summarising 
>> the results that come out in the thread. A Simple standard to update the 
>> top post when a question is answered, and the answer etc... would add great 
>> value.
>>
>> On discourse, Its A chat not likely to have longer more serious content, 
>> thus fragmented and harder to read. Has its place but in my mode not as a 
>> replacement to Git hub.
>>
>> I still hole a light for Yammer, but I do not want to waste my time 
>> explaining why if few people even try it. As a knowledge curator it would 
>> be ideal. Many little groups and blogs can be created with the owners 
>> extracting links and even build collaborative documents. Its only gap was 
>> code blocks.
>>
>> Tones
>>
>>
>> \
>>
>> On Monday, 7 June 2021 at 22:28:09 UTC+10 TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>>
>>>  saq.i...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>
 Jeremy just so you are aware, the issues with posting via the web 
> interface go beyond just difficulty in making monospaced blocks. 
>

>>> IF you ONLY use this GG though EMAIL then you WON'T know what got LOST 
>>> recently ... (and other functions too ...)
>>>
>>>- CODE sections 
>>>- Ability to PRIVATELY REPLY to posters
>>>- Ability to RE-EDIT for spelling errors (a serious disaster for bad 
>>>sMellers, of which there are many, including me)
>>>
>>> Just observations
>>> TT
>>>  
>>>
>>

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Re: [tw5] Re: [Comment] My Ongoing Irritations with Google Groups

[Soren Bjornstad]

Tones, I think you are confusing Discord and Discourse as happened earlier 
up the thread 
. They 
are totally unrelated and Discourse is for long-form writing and discussions 
, not chat.

On Monday, June 7, 2021 at 6:32:51 PM UTC-5 TW Tones wrote:

> ha Ha "bad sMellers," Totally agree, I am one of them, not to mention typos
>
> Seriously being able to edit the top post was a great way of summarising 
> the results that come out in the thread. A Simple standard to update the 
> top post when a question is answered, and the answer etc... would add great 
> value.
>
> On discourse, Its A chat not likely to have longer more serious content, 
> thus fragmented and harder to read. Has its place but in my mode not as a 
> replacement to Git hub.
>
> I still hole a light for Yammer, but I do not want to waste my time 
> explaining why if few people even try it. As a knowledge curator it would 
> be ideal. Many little groups and blogs can be created with the owners 
> extracting links and even build collaborative documents. Its only gap was 
> code blocks.
>
> Tones
>
>
> \
>
> On Monday, 7 June 2021 at 22:28:09 UTC+10 TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>
>>  saq.i...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> Jeremy just so you are aware, the issues with posting via the web 
 interface go beyond just difficulty in making monospaced blocks. 

>>>
>> IF you ONLY use this GG though EMAIL then you WON'T know what got LOST 
>> recently ... (and other functions too ...)
>>
>>- CODE sections 
>>- Ability to PRIVATELY REPLY to posters
>>- Ability to RE-EDIT for spelling errors (a serious disaster for bad 
>>sMellers, of which there are many, including me)
>>
>> Just observations
>> TT
>>  
>>
>

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Re: [tw5] Re: [Comment] My Ongoing Irritations with Google Groups

[Charlie Veniot]

I'm sorry, and squirming such that I can't help myself:  who is Yammer, and 
do his eyes light up when you hole the light ?

Yeah, I'm a bad sMeller too.  And a gudder-heeyoumured tinker too.

This is what happens when folk can't edit their posts.  To me, potential 
for hilarity which just has me loving this version of Google Groups a 
little bit more ...

On Monday, June 7, 2021 at 8:32:51 PM UTC-3 TW Tones wrote:

> ha Ha "bad sMellers," Totally agree, I am one of them, not to mention typos
>
> Seriously being able to edit the top post was a great way of summarising 
> the results that come out in the thread. A Simple standard to update the 
> top post when a question is answered, and the answer etc... would add great 
> value.
>
> On discourse, Its A chat not likely to have longer more serious content, 
> thus fragmented and harder to read. Has its place but in my mode not as a 
> replacement to Git hub.
>
> I still hole a light for Yammer, but I do not want to waste my time 
> explaining why if few people even try it. As a knowledge curator it would 
> be ideal. Many little groups and blogs can be created with the owners 
> extracting links and even build collaborative documents. Its only gap was 
> code blocks.
>
> Tones
>
>
> \
>
> On Monday, 7 June 2021 at 22:28:09 UTC+10 TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>
>>  saq.i...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> Jeremy just so you are aware, the issues with posting via the web 
 interface go beyond just difficulty in making monospaced blocks. 

>>>
>> IF you ONLY use this GG though EMAIL then you WON'T know what got LOST 
>> recently ... (and other functions too ...)
>>
>>- CODE sections 
>>- Ability to PRIVATELY REPLY to posters
>>- Ability to RE-EDIT for spelling errors (a serious disaster for bad 
>>sMellers, of which there are many, including me)
>>
>> Just observations
>> TT
>>  
>>
>

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Re: [tw5] Re: [Comment] My Ongoing Irritations with Google Groups

[TW Tones]

ha Ha "bad sMellers," Totally agree, I am one of them, not to mention typos

Seriously being able to edit the top post was a great way of summarising 
the results that come out in the thread. A Simple standard to update the 
top post when a question is answered, and the answer etc... would add great 
value.

On discourse, Its A chat not likely to have longer more serious content, 
thus fragmented and harder to read. Has its place but in my mode not as a 
replacement to Git hub.

I still hole a light for Yammer, but I do not want to waste my time 
explaining why if few people even try it. As a knowledge curator it would 
be ideal. Many little groups and blogs can be created with the owners 
extracting links and even build collaborative documents. Its only gap was 
code blocks.

Tones


\

On Monday, 7 June 2021 at 22:28:09 UTC+10 TiddlyTweeter wrote:

>  saq.i...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> Jeremy just so you are aware, the issues with posting via the web 
>>> interface go beyond just difficulty in making monospaced blocks. 
>>>
>>
> IF you ONLY use this GG though EMAIL then you WON'T know what got LOST 
> recently ... (and other functions too ...)
>
>- CODE sections 
>- Ability to PRIVATELY REPLY to posters
>- Ability to RE-EDIT for spelling errors (a serious disaster for bad 
>sMellers, of which there are many, including me)
>
> Just observations
> TT
>  
>

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Re: [tw5] Re: [Comment] My Ongoing Irritations with Google Groups

[TiddlyTweeter]

 saq.i...@gmail.com wrote:

> Jeremy just so you are aware, the issues with posting via the web 
>> interface go beyond just difficulty in making monospaced blocks. 
>>
>
IF you ONLY use this GG though EMAIL then you WON'T know what got LOST 
recently ... (and other functions too ...)

   - CODE sections 
   - Ability to PRIVATELY REPLY to posters
   - Ability to RE-EDIT for spelling errors (a serious disaster for bad 
   sMellers, of which there are many, including me)

Just observations
TT
 

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Re: [tw5] Re: [Comment] My Ongoing Irritations with Google Groups

[TiddlyTweeter]

Stobot wrote:

> Oof, I have had *minor* annoyances with Google Groups posting, but sounds 
> like nothing near what you guys (Soren / Saq) have been having.


Never forget ME. I wrote the OP  :-) 
That is RHYMING SLANG too :-)

Issues are very much about HOW to OPTIMIZE search in the GG.

Jeremy & Soren found it more trivial than me.
It is an ongoing saga.

Best wishes
TT

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Re: [tw5] Re: [Comment] My Ongoing Irritations with Google Groups

[Stobot]

Oof, I have had *minor* annoyances with Google Groups posting, but sounds 
like nothing near what you guys (Soren / Saq) have been having. That does 
make things more urgent in my opinion. 

*Plugins*
As we contemplate migrating the community to another platform, aside from 
making it nicer / more stable to post, and making it easier to find posts, 
I'd personally be most interested in the potential for using the same 
platform for "plugins". I bring this up, because this could/would compete 
with the current links.tiddlywiki.com effort. Don't get me wrong, I love 
the concept, but I think it could be improved on, and I think those 
improvements would be easy/built-in on another forum platform. Most notably 
to make it easy for *all* users to upvote to get some ranking going. I 
think this is helpful for the new-user experience. When I start with other 
software that has user-plugin capabilities (image editing software 
paint.net - forums.getpaint.net for instance) I'll usually go to the 
plugins and expect to see the most common popular ones up top and look at 
those first. The thing about *user-generated* plugins is that you *don't 
know* if those plugins work now, or if they'll continue to work. But, as a 
shortcut if you know they're very widely used, and greatly liked you can 
feel a little more confident that someone is either maintaining it, or 
would take it over if it became abandoned. I realize that there is a way 
for people to contribute (reading the "How To Contribute" page now), but 
given that it requires doing a "Github pull request" which even *I* don't 
understand, let's just agree it could be a bit easier for new users without 
developer backgrounds. 

*Maintenance*
On a related note, there's discussion here about some level of maintenance 
of the information - Jeremy has brought it up a couple of times in this 
thread. Obviously one way to get that is to have a good ranking / voting 
system like I mention above. I'm also curious if anyone here has any 
knowledge of "free internships"? At my company we have an intern program 
that's obviously not free, but I feel like I've heard of some voluntary 
open-source software companies having / working with people who are willing 
to work on a free internship - basically just for resume building. Maybe 
that's something that somebody here knows could be an option?


On Monday, June 7, 2021 at 4:05:40 AM UTC-4 saq.i...@gmail.com wrote:

>
>> However, the editing experience, while it used to be tolerable, has 
>> become horrendous since the latest UI “upgrade”. I regularly have the 
>> screen get corrupted or lose data (wtf, how did this become acceptable), 
>> and doing code formatting is a huge pain now.
>>
>>
>> I generally compose via email but my understanding is that it is no 
>> longer straightforward to make monospaced blocks, which does indeed seem 
>> pretty poor.
>>
>  
> Jeremy just so you are aware, the issues with posting via the web 
> interface go beyond just difficulty in making monospaced blocks. Like 
> Soren, I often experience that the UI glitches out and I lose what I have 
> written. Combined with the difficulties in replying from mobile, I find 
> myself rarely having enough motivation to participate in the group now. 
>
> I've tried to attach a screenshot of what writing this post was like... 
>
> [image: Screenshot 2021-06-07 100214.png]
>

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Re: [tw5] Re: [Comment] My Ongoing Irritations with Google Groups

[Saq Imtiaz]

>
>
> However, the editing experience, while it used to be tolerable, has become 
> horrendous since the latest UI “upgrade”. I regularly have the screen get 
> corrupted or lose data (wtf, how did this become acceptable), and doing 
> code formatting is a huge pain now.
>
>
> I generally compose via email but my understanding is that it is no longer 
> straightforward to make monospaced blocks, which does indeed seem pretty 
> poor.
>
 
Jeremy just so you are aware, the issues with posting via the web interface 
go beyond just difficulty in making monospaced blocks. Like Soren, I often 
experience that the UI glitches out and I lose what I have written. 
Combined with the difficulties in replying from mobile, I find myself 
rarely having enough motivation to participate in the group now. 

I've tried to attach a screenshot of what writing this post was like... 

[image: Screenshot 2021-06-07 100214.png]

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Re: [tw5] Re: [Comment] My Ongoing Irritations with Google Groups

[Jeremy Ruston]

Hi Soren

Excellent points, thank you. 
> Jeremy's concerns seem to focus around search, but I actually haven't found 
> Google Groups search to be that bad (you have to pick "sort by relevance" 
> instead of "sort by date" after every search or it is just about useless, 
> though – if you think it's bad and you haven't tried that, do).

Search isn't actually a particular concern of mine; earlier in the thread I was 
trying to tease out TiddlyTweeters concerns about finding things. My point is 
that moving to new forum software is not going to be a panacea for 
TiddlyTweeter's concerns, which I think can only be addressed by human curation.

> However, the editing experience, while it used to be tolerable, has become 
> horrendous since the latest UI “upgrade”. I regularly have the screen get 
> corrupted or lose data (wtf, how did this become acceptable), and doing code 
> formatting is a huge pain now.

I generally compose via email but my understanding is that it is no longer 
straightforward to make monospaced blocks, which does indeed seem pretty poor.

> In terms of migration difficulty...I've been part of the Anki open-source 
> community on and off for many years, and it has moved from Google Groups to 
> TenderApp (actually a tech support system, but it worked OK for discussions 
> too, and had an awesome API back when that was rare) to Discourse, and there 
> don't seem to have been significant problems getting the community to come 
> along with. Unless we have a substantial contingent of core members who 
> refuse to switch platforms, I'm not convinced this is going to be a huge 
> problem. For people who drop in and out, having to learn one new platform 
> over another one doesn't seem like much of a change unless the new platform 
> is significantly harder to use. How many people are actually already familiar 
> with Google Groups nowadays?

I am actually not too concerned about moving the community over. When the time 
comes, we'll close the GG to new posts.

> I'm not a huge fan of Discourse either, though, FWIW, and a pure TW solution 
> would be harder to implement and probably harder for new users to use. So not 
> sure I have much of an opinion on whether we should move. If we decided to, 
> I'd be willing to chip in for hosting costs.

I'm using Discourse a fair amount on other projects. It seems to be a nice, 
well polished piece of engineering, but is conceptually somewhat old fashioned. 
I think it would constitute an improvement, but perhaps not by as much as we 
might hope.

Best wishes

Jeremy

> 
>> On Thursday, June 3, 2021 at 7:07:18 PM UTC-5 flohit...@googlemail.com wrote:
>> Hey all, 
>> this has been annoying for me, too. I thought, discourse isn‘t that old (or 
>> other open source hostable solutions), so probably it’s easier to stay here. 
>> But GG is crap. 
>> I think discourse is a good Solution that can be implemented first on the 
>> side, if some „main“ people are willing to commit to do so. I mean mostly 
>> Jeremy and people who are actively developing and discussing stuff, the core 
>> community. Discourse  can imo be a good discussion forum for people who are 
>> already a bit committed to a project and want to discuss it more deeply. The 
>> better searchability and more asynchronous, forum–not–feed approach quite 
>> naturally allows for deeper accumulation of knowledge which will be 
>> accessible for newbies as well. I also often am afraid that if a question of 
>> mine won’t be answered fastly, it will just drown in the endless feed...
>> so i think a Good first step is moving discussions regarding more specific 
>> projects to discourse which are a bit more technical and not so much of 
>> concern for newer people. For example the developers group, discussion about 
>> next releases, etc. discourse can be helpful bridge between purely technical 
>> GitHub and social media, it has some functions that also enhance that afaik. 
>> If people register that they can get their deeper questions answered more 
>> thoroughly on discourse, because it has a better interface and the more 
>> expert people usually hang out there, they will move there, but not out of 
>> idealism.
>> most discourse forums demand a login, which can be a bit offputting for 
>> complete newbies. So outlets on „mainstream“ Networks should be maintained – 
>> Reddit, the matrix channel (which is a bit undervalued :( ) , maybe this 
>> here... 
>> discord channels are also quite popular – in order to provide easy 
>> accessibility for people that are less experienced.
>> Also I would believe someone in the tiddlycommunity could set up an 
>> instance? There are several projects involving servers, right?There also 
>> already is a tiddlywiki subgroup on fission, but I don’t think that’s for 
>> general purposes (?)
>> TiddlyTweeter schrieb am Sonntag, 30. Mai 2021 um 08:34:37 UTC+2:
>>> This Google Group is OUR main end-user forum. 
>>> 
>>> There are problems with Google Groups. More 

[tw5] Re: [Comment] My Ongoing Irritations with Google Groups

[TW Tones]

This is where a TiddlyWiki solution offers a lot more. 

Having a career in Knowledge and information management, support and 
troubleshooting - one thing I picked us is the questions are as important 
as the answers. The smart way is to capture the questions asked, those 
without answers become needed new knowledge, the quicker a question is 
answered the more the way to ask the question is identified as profitable 
so help the interrogator learn how to ask questions based on successful 
questions before. It is auto-curation. 

GG is a mailing list, it can be used to harvest knowledge, but it not only 
has little to help curate the knowledge it sometimes actively works against 
it, it is not possible to develop even tentative "source of a given truth" 
or the unabridged info.

My use of google groups could be a harvesting/curation process but I cant 
take responsibility for it because I need a living. I thought I would build 
a blog that provides an index into the information posted in GG going 
forward, news and observations, references and commentary, but few were 
interested, perhaps they did not have the same vision I have for a blog.

As Charlie shared IT'S ALL WRONG, especially documents, says Ted in 2011  
tells me we need innovation to 
escape the bounds of a email list. Interesting something google should do 
but does not belying their lack of innovation (at least that they share 
publicly) 

Tones
On Monday, 7 June 2021 at 05:54:12 UTC+10 cj.v...@gmail.com wrote:

> Although I preferred the previous incarnation of Google Groups, I'm liking 
> the simplicity of this incarnation.  I like anything that has a feel of 
> minimalism, even if it has some warts.
>
> For complex searching of the group, I'm quite happy going to advanced 
> Google Search, for example:  
> https://www.google.com/advanced_search?q=site:groups.google.com/g/tiddlywiki+filter+macro=en_qdr=all
>
> And every time a question of any kind happens again, I find it puts the 
> question in a new light, so repetition is good because of the potential for 
> updated insights/features.
>
> The questions are just as valuable as (maybe more so than)  the answers.
>
> To me, Google Groups combined with Advanced Google Search (when needed), 
> strikes a pretty good balance.
>
>
>
> On Sunday, June 6, 2021 at 2:19:18 PM UTC-3 Soren Bjornstad wrote:
>
>> Jeremy's concerns seem to focus around search, but I actually haven't 
>> found Google Groups search to be that bad (you have to pick "sort by 
>> relevance" instead of "sort by date" after every search or it is just about 
>> useless, though – if you think it's bad and you haven't tried that, do). 
>> However, the editing experience, while it used to be tolerable, has become 
>> horrendous since the latest UI “upgrade”. I regularly have the screen get 
>> corrupted or lose data (wtf, how did this become acceptable), and doing 
>> code formatting is a huge pain now.
>>
>> In terms of migration difficulty...I've been part of the Anki open-source 
>> community on and off for many years, and it has moved from Google Groups to 
>> TenderApp (actually a tech support system, but it worked OK for discussions 
>> too, and had an awesome API back when that was rare) to Discourse, and 
>> there don't seem to have been significant problems getting the community to 
>> come along with. Unless we have a substantial contingent of core members 
>> who refuse to switch platforms, I'm not convinced this is going to be a 
>> huge problem. For people who drop in and out, having to learn one new 
>> platform over another one doesn't seem like much of a change unless the new 
>> platform is significantly harder to use. How many people are actually 
>> already familiar with Google Groups nowadays?
>>
>> I'm not a huge fan of Discourse either, though, FWIW, and a pure TW 
>> solution would be harder to implement and probably harder for new users to 
>> use. So not sure I have much of an opinion on whether we should move. If we 
>> decided to, I'd be willing to chip in for hosting costs.
>>
>> On Thursday, June 3, 2021 at 7:07:18 PM UTC-5 flohit...@googlemail.com 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hey all, 
>>> this has been annoying for me, too. I thought, discourse isn‘t that old 
>>> (or other open source hostable solutions), so probably it’s easier to stay 
>>> here. But GG is crap. 
>>> I think discourse is a good Solution that can be implemented first on 
>>> the side, if some „main“ people are willing to commit to do so. I mean 
>>> mostly Jeremy and people who are actively developing and discussing stuff, 
>>> the core community. Discourse  can imo be a good discussion forum for 
>>> people who are already a bit committed to a project and want to discuss it 
>>> more deeply. The better searchability and more asynchronous, forum–not–feed 
>>> approach quite naturally allows for deeper accumulation of knowledge which 
>>> will be accessible for newbies as well. I also often am afraid 

[tw5] Re: [Comment] My Ongoing Irritations with Google Groups

[Charlie Veniot]

Although I preferred the previous incarnation of Google Groups, I'm liking 
the simplicity of this incarnation.  I like anything that has a feel of 
minimalism, even if it has some warts.

For complex searching of the group, I'm quite happy going to advanced 
Google Search, for example:  
https://www.google.com/advanced_search?q=site:groups.google.com/g/tiddlywiki+filter+macro=en_qdr=all

And every time a question of any kind happens again, I find it puts the 
question in a new light, so repetition is good because of the potential for 
updated insights/features.

The questions are just as valuable as (maybe more so than)  the answers.

To me, Google Groups combined with Advanced Google Search (when needed), 
strikes a pretty good balance.



On Sunday, June 6, 2021 at 2:19:18 PM UTC-3 Soren Bjornstad wrote:

> Jeremy's concerns seem to focus around search, but I actually haven't 
> found Google Groups search to be that bad (you have to pick "sort by 
> relevance" instead of "sort by date" after every search or it is just about 
> useless, though – if you think it's bad and you haven't tried that, do). 
> However, the editing experience, while it used to be tolerable, has become 
> horrendous since the latest UI “upgrade”. I regularly have the screen get 
> corrupted or lose data (wtf, how did this become acceptable), and doing 
> code formatting is a huge pain now.
>
> In terms of migration difficulty...I've been part of the Anki open-source 
> community on and off for many years, and it has moved from Google Groups to 
> TenderApp (actually a tech support system, but it worked OK for discussions 
> too, and had an awesome API back when that was rare) to Discourse, and 
> there don't seem to have been significant problems getting the community to 
> come along with. Unless we have a substantial contingent of core members 
> who refuse to switch platforms, I'm not convinced this is going to be a 
> huge problem. For people who drop in and out, having to learn one new 
> platform over another one doesn't seem like much of a change unless the new 
> platform is significantly harder to use. How many people are actually 
> already familiar with Google Groups nowadays?
>
> I'm not a huge fan of Discourse either, though, FWIW, and a pure TW 
> solution would be harder to implement and probably harder for new users to 
> use. So not sure I have much of an opinion on whether we should move. If we 
> decided to, I'd be willing to chip in for hosting costs.
>
> On Thursday, June 3, 2021 at 7:07:18 PM UTC-5 flohit...@googlemail.com 
> wrote:
>
>> Hey all, 
>> this has been annoying for me, too. I thought, discourse isn‘t that old 
>> (or other open source hostable solutions), so probably it’s easier to stay 
>> here. But GG is crap. 
>> I think discourse is a good Solution that can be implemented first on the 
>> side, if some „main“ people are willing to commit to do so. I mean mostly 
>> Jeremy and people who are actively developing and discussing stuff, the 
>> core community. Discourse  can imo be a good discussion forum for people 
>> who are already a bit committed to a project and want to discuss it more 
>> deeply. The better searchability and more asynchronous, forum–not–feed 
>> approach quite naturally allows for deeper accumulation of knowledge which 
>> will be accessible for newbies as well. I also often am afraid that if a 
>> question of mine won’t be answered fastly, it will just drown in the 
>> endless feed...
>> so i think a Good first step is moving discussions regarding more 
>> specific projects to discourse which are a bit more technical and not so 
>> much of concern for newer people. For example the developers group, 
>> discussion about next releases, etc. discourse can be helpful bridge 
>> between purely technical GitHub and social media, it has some functions 
>> that also enhance that afaik. If people register that they can get their 
>> deeper questions answered more thoroughly on discourse, because it has a 
>> better interface and the more expert people usually hang out there, they 
>> will move there, but not out of idealism.
>> most discourse forums demand a login, which can be a bit offputting for 
>> complete newbies. So outlets on „mainstream“ Networks should be maintained 
>> – Reddit, the matrix channel (which is a bit undervalued :( ) , maybe this 
>> here... 
>> discord channels are also quite popular – in order to provide easy 
>> accessibility for people that are less experienced.
>> Also I would believe someone in the tiddlycommunity could set up an 
>> instance? There are several projects involving servers, right?There also 
>> already is a tiddlywiki subgroup on fission, but I don’t think that’s for 
>> general purposes (?)
>> TiddlyTweeter schrieb am Sonntag, 30. Mai 2021 um 08:34:37 UTC+2:
>>
>>> This Google Group is OUR main end-user forum. 
>>>
>>> There are problems with Google Groups. More recently it was 
>>> "dumbed-down" by Google. A lot of tools just 

[tw5] Re: [Comment] My Ongoing Irritations with Google Groups

[Soren Bjornstad]

Jeremy's concerns seem to focus around search, but I actually haven't found 
Google Groups search to be that bad (you have to pick "sort by relevance" 
instead of "sort by date" after every search or it is just about useless, 
though – if you think it's bad and you haven't tried that, do). However, 
the editing experience, while it used to be tolerable, has become 
horrendous since the latest UI “upgrade”. I regularly have the screen get 
corrupted or lose data (wtf, how did this become acceptable), and doing 
code formatting is a huge pain now.

In terms of migration difficulty...I've been part of the Anki open-source 
community on and off for many years, and it has moved from Google Groups to 
TenderApp (actually a tech support system, but it worked OK for discussions 
too, and had an awesome API back when that was rare) to Discourse, and 
there don't seem to have been significant problems getting the community to 
come along with. Unless we have a substantial contingent of core members 
who refuse to switch platforms, I'm not convinced this is going to be a 
huge problem. For people who drop in and out, having to learn one new 
platform over another one doesn't seem like much of a change unless the new 
platform is significantly harder to use. How many people are actually 
already familiar with Google Groups nowadays?

I'm not a huge fan of Discourse either, though, FWIW, and a pure TW 
solution would be harder to implement and probably harder for new users to 
use. So not sure I have much of an opinion on whether we should move. If we 
decided to, I'd be willing to chip in for hosting costs.

On Thursday, June 3, 2021 at 7:07:18 PM UTC-5 flohit...@googlemail.com 
wrote:

> Hey all, 
> this has been annoying for me, too. I thought, discourse isn‘t that old 
> (or other open source hostable solutions), so probably it’s easier to stay 
> here. But GG is crap. 
> I think discourse is a good Solution that can be implemented first on the 
> side, if some „main“ people are willing to commit to do so. I mean mostly 
> Jeremy and people who are actively developing and discussing stuff, the 
> core community. Discourse  can imo be a good discussion forum for people 
> who are already a bit committed to a project and want to discuss it more 
> deeply. The better searchability and more asynchronous, forum–not–feed 
> approach quite naturally allows for deeper accumulation of knowledge which 
> will be accessible for newbies as well. I also often am afraid that if a 
> question of mine won’t be answered fastly, it will just drown in the 
> endless feed...
> so i think a Good first step is moving discussions regarding more specific 
> projects to discourse which are a bit more technical and not so much of 
> concern for newer people. For example the developers group, discussion 
> about next releases, etc. discourse can be helpful bridge between purely 
> technical GitHub and social media, it has some functions that also enhance 
> that afaik. If people register that they can get their deeper questions 
> answered more thoroughly on discourse, because it has a better interface 
> and the more expert people usually hang out there, they will move there, 
> but not out of idealism.
> most discourse forums demand a login, which can be a bit offputting for 
> complete newbies. So outlets on „mainstream“ Networks should be maintained 
> – Reddit, the matrix channel (which is a bit undervalued :( ) , maybe this 
> here... 
> discord channels are also quite popular – in order to provide easy 
> accessibility for people that are less experienced.
> Also I would believe someone in the tiddlycommunity could set up an 
> instance? There are several projects involving servers, right?There also 
> already is a tiddlywiki subgroup on fission, but I don’t think that’s for 
> general purposes (?)
> TiddlyTweeter schrieb am Sonntag, 30. Mai 2021 um 08:34:37 UTC+2:
>
>> This Google Group is OUR main end-user forum. 
>>
>> There are problems with Google Groups. More recently it was "dumbed-down" 
>> by Google. A lot of tools just disappeared. That just made it worse for OUR 
>> needs.
>>
>> And, long term, it has proved to also have NO DECENT MEMORY. 
>> Search here is the Total Pits.
>>
>> WHAT happens as a result of that?
>>
>> A VERY common pattern that happens daily here is RE-CREATION OF THE 
>> WHEEL. 
>> GG lacks any easy, structured, way to interrogate the VAST knowledge-base 
>> that this GG actually IS. 
>> SO, again and again, you see very similar queries come up and be 
>> patiently RE-answered.
>>
>> I think a much BETTER way would be to leverage off the knowledge 
>> accumulated here and direct users first to already EXTANT solutions.
>>
>> I'm not sure it is possible. 
>> But repetition of the variants on the same question is a waste, I think?
>>
>> Just comments
>> TT
>>
>

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[tw5] Re: [Comment] My Ongoing Irritations with Google Groups

['Florian Felix' via TiddlyWiki]

Hey all, 
this has been annoying for me, too. I thought, discourse isn‘t that old (or 
other open source hostable solutions), so probably it’s easier to stay 
here. But GG is crap. 
I think discourse is a good Solution that can be implemented first on the 
side, if some „main“ people are willing to commit to do so. I mean mostly 
Jeremy and people who are actively developing and discussing stuff, the 
core community. Discourse  can imo be a good discussion forum for people 
who are already a bit committed to a project and want to discuss it more 
deeply. The better searchability and more asynchronous, forum–not–feed 
approach quite naturally allows for deeper accumulation of knowledge which 
will be accessible for newbies as well. I also often am afraid that if a 
question of mine won’t be answered fastly, it will just drown in the 
endless feed...
so i think a Good first step is moving discussions regarding more specific 
projects to discourse which are a bit more technical and not so much of 
concern for newer people. For example the developers group, discussion 
about next releases, etc. discourse can be helpful bridge between purely 
technical GitHub and social media, it has some functions that also enhance 
that afaik. If people register that they can get their deeper questions 
answered more thoroughly on discourse, because it has a better interface 
and the more expert people usually hang out there, they will move there, 
but not out of idealism.
most discourse forums demand a login, which can be a bit offputting for 
complete newbies. So outlets on „mainstream“ Networks should be maintained 
– Reddit, the matrix channel (which is a bit undervalued :( ) , maybe this 
here... 
discord channels are also quite popular – in order to provide easy 
accessibility for people that are less experienced.
Also I would believe someone in the tiddlycommunity could set up an 
instance? There are several projects involving servers, right?There also 
already is a tiddlywiki subgroup on fission, but I don’t think that’s for 
general purposes (?)
TiddlyTweeter schrieb am Sonntag, 30. Mai 2021 um 08:34:37 UTC+2:

> This Google Group is OUR main end-user forum. 
>
> There are problems with Google Groups. More recently it was "dumbed-down" 
> by Google. A lot of tools just disappeared. That just made it worse for OUR 
> needs.
>
> And, long term, it has proved to also have NO DECENT MEMORY. 
> Search here is the Total Pits.
>
> WHAT happens as a result of that?
>
> A VERY common pattern that happens daily here is RE-CREATION OF THE WHEEL. 
> GG lacks any easy, structured, way to interrogate the VAST knowledge-base 
> that this GG actually IS. 
> SO, again and again, you see very similar queries come up and be patiently 
> RE-answered.
>
> I think a much BETTER way would be to leverage off the knowledge 
> accumulated here and direct users first to already EXTANT solutions.
>
> I'm not sure it is possible. 
> But repetition of the variants on the same question is a waste, I think?
>
> Just comments
> TT
>

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Re: [tw5] Re: [Comment] My Ongoing Irritations with Google Groups

[TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao TW Tones

I hear you.

AND I do SEE that GG got impoverished ... recently the following  ...

   - Easy ability to email a poster privately went AWOL ...
   - CODE blocks just disappeared
   - Ability to RE-EDIT posts went away
   - Taggery is mainly currently pointless (complex issue in TW on any 
   platform)
   - *and more ...*

That is a LOT practically.

That said, MY view now is focused on *can I FIND what I need when I need 
it?*
 
YOUR EXIT approach is interesting.
Simply from my previous experience I'm inclined to the view we NEED first 
to prove GG is a total heap of problems for OUR needs.
OR provide an additive method to FIND.

Just thoughts
TT

On Wednesday, 2 June 2021 at 09:50:48 UTC+2 TW Tones wrote:

> TT,
>
> I was just reviewing the concept of exit strategy. I am running a test on 
> a group I own. Google permits you to export most information they hold for 
> you and this seems to include ALL mail in a google group. It would most 
> likely be "big data" but it can be done it seems. Then with this available 
> it may be possible to algorithmically or crowd source curation of the data 
> for the backbone of a new solution. The key issue is separating content 
> inside emails, such as with reply and forwarding where a whole or part of 
> the conversation accrues in the text of each email but it is not 
> insurmountable. It may also be possible to get something out of the mail 
> archive. 
>
> I am not pretending this is easy, and a concerted effort and project would 
> need to be mounted.
>
> Regards
> Tones
>
> On Wednesday, 2 June 2021 at 16:22:46 UTC+10 TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>
>> TW Tones wrote:
>>
>>> ... It is true there are a lot of good ideas but its like herding cats 
>>> and always will be unless there were a clear leader as a replacement. 
>>>
>>
>>  Lol! Right! Herding cats? Non-starter!
>>
>> You probably read my last two posts.
>> Actually rather than focus on exit strategies I got kinda interested in 
>> *whether 
>> we can leverage here better?*
>>
>> What does seem very clear is that in the native web interface in this GG 
>> is totally inadequate to easy probe of its own history.
>>
>> I think this is an empirical matter. *HOW do you FIND what you need?*
>>
>> IF we could more accurately probe the archives it would address a big 
>> section of the problematic.
>>
>> Thoughts
>> TT
>>
>

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Re: [tw5] Re: [Comment] My Ongoing Irritations with Google Groups

[TW Tones]

TT,

I was just reviewing the concept of exit strategy. I am running a test on a 
group I own. Google permits you to export most information they hold for 
you and this seems to include ALL mail in a google group. It would most 
likely be "big data" but it can be done it seems. Then with this available 
it may be possible to algorithmically or crowd source curation of the data 
for the backbone of a new solution. The key issue is separating content 
inside emails, such as with reply and forwarding where a whole or part of 
the conversation accrues in the text of each email but it is not 
insurmountable. It may also be possible to get something out of the mail 
archive. 

I am not pretending this is easy, and a concerted effort and project would 
need to be mounted.

Regards
Tones

On Wednesday, 2 June 2021 at 16:22:46 UTC+10 TiddlyTweeter wrote:

> TW Tones wrote:
>
>> ... It is true there are a lot of good ideas but its like herding cats 
>> and always will be unless there were a clear leader as a replacement. 
>>
>
>  Lol! Right! Herding cats? Non-starter!
>
> You probably read my last two posts.
> Actually rather than focus on exit strategies I got kinda interested in 
> *whether 
> we can leverage here better?*
>
> What does seem very clear is that in the native web interface in this GG 
> is totally inadequate to easy probe of its own history.
>
> I think this is an empirical matter. *HOW do you FIND what you need?*
>
> IF we could more accurately probe the archives it would address a big 
> section of the problematic.
>
> Thoughts
> TT
>

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Re: [tw5] Re: [Comment] My Ongoing Irritations with Google Groups

[TiddlyTweeter]

TW Tones wrote:

> ... It is true there are a lot of good ideas but its like herding cats and 
> always will be unless there were a clear leader as a replacement. 
>

 Lol! Right! Herding cats? Non-starter!

You probably read my last two posts.
Actually rather than focus on exit strategies I got kinda interested in 
*whether 
we can leverage here better?*

What does seem very clear is that in the native web interface in this GG is 
totally inadequate to easy probe of its own history.

I think this is an empirical matter. *HOW do you FIND what you need?*

IF we could more accurately probe the archives it would address a big 
section of the problematic.

Thoughts
TT

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Re: [tw5] Re: [Comment] My Ongoing Irritations with Google Groups

[TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Mat

I appreciate your post. Because you have the history to have nice clear 
opinions!

ACTUALLY in my frame of mind NOW, rather than in the past, I actually think 
a FIRST question might be...

* Can we delve the GG better? For the solutions that ARE there users need?*

In other words, can we leverage this GG group better?

Best wishes
TT

On Monday, 31 May 2021 at 18:33:15 UTC+2 Mat wrote:

> If someone is serious about just getting out of GG, then I guess a first 
> thing to do is to put up some comparison table or even a wiki to collect 
> benefits and drawbacks with each solution and pit them against each other. 
> Including GG. One idea would be to put up a google form so people can post 
> in proposals and describe various aspects of them.
>
> As I said though, I'm of the firm belief that there's no point in 
> attempting to move anywhere without the key people, notably Jeremy, coming 
> along. So any such investigation would still only *maybe *convince anyone.
>
> BTW, is there any discussion software with an API that is, or could be, 
> *compatible* with TW? I don't really understand what it is I'm asking 
> about here, but just maybe there'd be some way to interact with an external 
> service via ones own TW? As you may recall, Mark and I recently created a 
> solution to import+convert Google Sheets data into tiddlers 
> . And Jeremys very recent proposal 
> for a JSON formatted 
> tiddler store briefly touches API aspects. Using TW as a front end to 
> external services is a pretty darn cool idea *per se* and should also 
> open up TW for a wider audience, but integrating it with some external 
> discussion service would be a great use case with much practical value for 
> the community.
>
> <:-)
>

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Re: [tw5] Re: [Comment] My Ongoing Irritations with Google Groups

[TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Jeremy

I thought that a great example. Yes you CAN find things IF you know an 
exact string, BUT the issue is you  need to know the exact phrase.
AND you need to use Google for easiest hit. 

The issue that the OP was, maybe not as clear as it should have been, is I 
want to be able to search the vast GG archive to find solutions I DON'T 
know the exact title of.

To give a couple of examples ... 

   - HOW do I find "all but only" what Eric Shulman has done about cloud 
   maps?
   - HOW do I find posts about "NotoWritey" (Or is it "NotoWriterly") that 
   specifically discuss its use of regular expressions?

My contention is that we are losing history here from lack of appropriate 
tagging, lack of upvoting & pretty awful search (i.e. GG's native search, 
not Google per se).

I think the thread kinda inched towards re-hashing shifting groups. BUT my 
intent was not really so concerned with that.
RATHER: *HOW can we make the best of what we have here in GG?*

Finding solutions seems to me the premier concern in this GG. 

I'm wondering if we might in a TW design a better interface to Google that 
will better deliver the results users needs?

Thoughts
TT
'
On Monday, 31 May 2021 at 15:56:12 UTC+2 jeremy...@gmail.com wrote:

> NO, Google Groups search is TERRIBLE.
> And WORSE than it was before.
>
> And that is a MAJOR factor in end-user frustration. 
>
> Please prove me wrong. 
> *Show some complex searches that work? *:-) 
>
>
> I think whether we use Google Groups or Discourse, the best way to search 
> the archives will always be a straightforward web search (OK, Google 
> search). As an experiment, I searched for a literal phrase from a message 
> in the group a month ago, and google found it instantly:
>
>
> https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=+%22winter+2019%2C+when+we+were+working+on+the+Commander+plugin%22=safari=en-gb=ALeKk03Qjh7fZzQxEE2_9X6csk0ZQAX5hA%3A1622469136222=EOq0YJjtDI-NhbIPicKYkAw=+%22winter+2019%2C+when+we+were+working+on+the+Commander+plugin%22_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EANQ8UxY8Uxg705oBHAAeACAAUGIAX2SAQEymAEAoAEBqgEHZ3dzLXdpesABAQ=gws-wiz=0ahUKEwiYtZfEiPTwAhWPRkEAHQkhBsIQ4dUDCA0=5
>
> If the URL doesn't come through, it is just the result of searching for 
> the string (including quotes):
>
> "winter 2019, when we were working on the Commander plugin"
>
> As ever, the difficulty is coming up with the right search phrases.
>
> Best wishes
>
> Jeremy
>
>
>
>

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Re: [tw5] Re: [Comment] My Ongoing Irritations with Google Groups

[TW Tones]

Folks,

I have being reluctant to reenter (and read everyone's detailed responses) 
this discussion, as it has being had many times. It is true there are a lot 
of good ideas but its like herding cats and always will be unless there 
were a clear leader as a replacement. 

I tried to promote the use of Yammer which I believed to meet many of the 
requirements, but too few people tried it to see why I thought it was a 
good solution. Most people argue for the system they are already familiar 
with (as I was with Yammer having helped build a 45,000 person yammer 
network) but then do not look into other peoples suggestions. I have looked 
at a few that have being proposed, but reviewing them is in the dark with 
no clear set of requirements to measure them against.

Going forward;

   1. Build a list of requirements collaboratively
   2. Build a  comparison table (as per Matt)
   3. Community Review fills out the table
   4. If there are some outstanding solutions initiate some trials
   5. Ask Jeremy to support any obvious solution

If necessary set up a fund raising account to help if funding is necessary.
Be carful seeking reviews from people that there are user and developer 
perspectives that can be different.

*Finally:* Since it is taking us so long anyway perhaps we should embark on 
a developing tiddlywiki solution - "drink our own Champaign". In this way 
posts could include tiddlywiki code and other objects. This could fix some 
existing limitations of tiddlywiki.

Regards
Tones
On Tuesday, 1 June 2021 at 02:33:15 UTC+10 Mat wrote:

> If someone is serious about just getting out of GG, then I guess a first 
> thing to do is to put up some comparison table or even a wiki to collect 
> benefits and drawbacks with each solution and pit them against each other. 
> Including GG. One idea would be to put up a google form so people can post 
> in proposals and describe various aspects of them.
>
> As I said though, I'm of the firm belief that there's no point in 
> attempting to move anywhere without the key people, notably Jeremy, coming 
> along. So any such investigation would still only *maybe *convince anyone.
>
> BTW, is there any discussion software with an API that is, or could be, 
> *compatible* with TW? I don't really understand what it is I'm asking 
> about here, but just maybe there'd be some way to interact with an external 
> service via ones own TW? As you may recall, Mark and I recently created a 
> solution to import+convert Google Sheets data into tiddlers 
> . And Jeremys very recent proposal 
> for a JSON formatted 
> tiddler store briefly touches API aspects. Using TW as a front end to 
> external services is a pretty darn cool idea *per se* and should also 
> open up TW for a wider audience, but integrating it with some external 
> discussion service would be a great use case with much practical value for 
> the community.
>
> <:-)
>

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Re: [tw5] Re: [Comment] My Ongoing Irritations with Google Groups

[Mat]

If someone is serious about just getting out of GG, then I guess a first 
thing to do is to put up some comparison table or even a wiki to collect 
benefits and drawbacks with each solution and pit them against each other. 
Including GG. One idea would be to put up a google form so people can post 
in proposals and describe various aspects of them.

As I said though, I'm of the firm belief that there's no point in 
attempting to move anywhere without the key people, notably Jeremy, coming 
along. So any such investigation would still only *maybe *convince anyone.

BTW, is there any discussion software with an API that is, or could be, 
*compatible* with TW? I don't really understand what it is I'm asking about 
here, but just maybe there'd be some way to interact with an external 
service via ones own TW? As you may recall, Mark and I recently created a 
solution to import+convert Google Sheets data into tiddlers 
. And Jeremys very recent proposal 
for a JSON formatted 
tiddler store briefly touches API aspects. Using TW as a front end to 
external services is a pretty darn cool idea *per se* and should also open 
up TW for a wider audience, but integrating it with some external 
discussion service would be a great use case with much practical value for 
the community.

<:-)

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Re: [tw5] Re: [Comment] My Ongoing Irritations with Google Groups

[Jeremy Ruston]

> NO, Google Groups search is TERRIBLE.
> And WORSE than it was before.
> 
> And that is a MAJOR factor in end-user frustration. 
> 
> Please prove me wrong. 
> Show some complex searches that work? :-) 

I think whether we use Google Groups or Discourse, the best way to search the 
archives will always be a straightforward web search (OK, Google search). As an 
experiment, I searched for a literal phrase from a message in the group a month 
ago, and google found it instantly:

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=+%22winter+2019%2C+when+we+were+working+on+the+Commander+plugin%22=safari=en-gb=ALeKk03Qjh7fZzQxEE2_9X6csk0ZQAX5hA%3A1622469136222=EOq0YJjtDI-NhbIPicKYkAw=+%22winter+2019%2C+when+we+were+working+on+the+Commander+plugin%22_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EANQ8UxY8Uxg705oBHAAeACAAUGIAX2SAQEymAEAoAEBqgEHZ3dzLXdpesABAQ=gws-wiz=0ahUKEwiYtZfEiPTwAhWPRkEAHQkhBsIQ4dUDCA0=5

If the URL doesn't come through, it is just the result of searching for the 
string (including quotes):

"winter 2019, when we were working on the Commander plugin"

As ever, the difficulty is coming up with the right search phrases.

Best wishes

Jeremy



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[tw5] Re: [Comment] My Ongoing Irritations with Google Groups

[TiddlyTweeter]

eddi...@gmail.com wrote:

> ... easily searchable and while I am sure there maybe better alternatives 
> out there, I personally just do not see the benefit in moving the entire 
> community to a new platform 


*Very interesting post *except "easily searchable". 

NO, Google Groups search is TERRIBLE.
And WORSE than it was before.

And that is a MAJOR factor in end-user frustration. 

Please prove me wrong. 
*Show some complex searches that work? *:-) 
 

> ... "if it ain't broke don't fix it". 


RIGHT! 
BUT. It is LESS than it WAS. 
The recent changes in GG function removed many functions and added NOTHING 
new.
Basically it is increasingly impoverished on functions.
 

> ... what alternatives are available but are they as time tested and 
> reliable? ... 


Google Groups, in net history, took over from Usenet and also adopted 
ListServ stuff.
I have no doubt that will continue.

That is NOT our primary concern.

The ISSUE now is to what extent the current GG supports what *WE need*.

My (original) question was really about OPTIMISATION 

*IS what we use everyday what we have already, or something new**?*

Just a question,
TT
 

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[tw5] Re: [Comment] My Ongoing Irritations with Google Groups

[Ed Dixon]

This has been an ongoing topic forever! Just my 2 cents but we appear to be 
having a pretty good "discourse" in here on this subject right now. The 
accumulated knowledge and history of TW is right here in one place (other 
than GIT of course) easily searchable and while I am sure there maybe 
better alternatives out there, I personally just do not see the benefit in 
moving the entire community to a new platform even if it were possible to 
move the information stored here with it (possibly losing a few users in 
the process) not to mention the effort it would take to manage some of 
these other alternatives where this is set and forget basically no patching 
required, no server costs or server maintenance, and all eyes are on as far 
as spam monitoring etc? It maybe possible or is being done, but it would be 
good to know all the information contained in this is archived and could be 
moved to another platform if needed but until needed why would we want to 
move to a different platform when this has worked fine for I have no idea 
how many years but plenty I am sure. GG isn't perfect no doubt, "eat your 
own dog food" I have always been a big believer in but more so "if it ain't 
broke don't fix it". Again just my brain damaged humble opinion and 
admittedly ill informed to what alternatives are available but are they as 
time tested and reliable? (not that google isn't capable of just kill  it 
off at any time like they did G+ or what ever it was called but this has 
been around almost as long as Gmail itself I think?  Doubt its going 
anywhere?


On Sunday, May 30, 2021 at 4:03:20 PM UTC-5 Mark S. wrote:

> On Sunday, May 30, 2021 at 11:56:51 AM UTC-7 Mat wrote:
>
>>
>> I don't know the details but I feel there is a general risk in being tied 
>> up in someone elses solution. Critical word is "tied up". Who owns the 
>> data? Even if we own the data, can it be exported? For free? Forever? Etc. 
>>
>
> I'm just saying that if we changed up, rather than going for these 
> semi-broken ad-hoc solutions that were never meant to be a forum (which, as 
> I understand it, includes discord), why not use a resource that was 
> designed as a forum? 
>
> With groups.io you can export data, and based on past experience it will 
> likely warn anyone before they change policies. The "pro" version is 
> $200/year, which is still a lot less than $1200. I'm running a nearly 2000 
> member forum there (it used to be 2000+, but I'm not a great motivator ;-) 
> )  In any event, our data is tied up with GG, so no real change there.
>  
>

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[tw5] Re: [Comment] My Ongoing Irritations with Google Groups

['Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki]

On Sunday, May 30, 2021 at 11:56:51 AM UTC-7 Mat wrote:

>
> I don't know the details but I feel there is a general risk in being tied 
> up in someone elses solution. Critical word is "tied up". Who owns the 
> data? Even if we own the data, can it be exported? For free? Forever? Etc. 
>

I'm just saying that if we changed up, rather than going for these 
semi-broken ad-hoc solutions that were never meant to be a forum (which, as 
I understand it, includes discord), why not use a resource that was 
designed as a forum? 

With groups.io you can export data, and based on past experience it will 
likely warn anyone before they change policies. The "pro" version is 
$200/year, which is still a lot less than $1200. I'm running a nearly 2000 
member forum there (it used to be 2000+, but I'm not a great motivator ;-) 
)  In any event, our data is tied up with GG, so no real change there.
 

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[tw5] Re: [Comment] My Ongoing Irritations with Google Groups

[Saq Imtiaz]

I had written a longer and more detailed reply but par for the course, the 
UI glitched out and I lost part of the post.

On Sunday, May 30, 2021 at 10:34:06 PM UTC+2 Mat wrote:

>
> Yeah, no doubt it would be a substantial effort. But on the other hand 
> there's no particular rush
>

As I said, if you stay within the GG group bubble it's easy to ignore the 
plight of users both current and prospective who are not comfortable with 
using or signing up for GG.
 

> So just "registering a new TW group" somewhere... poor idea.
>

I don't think anyone has suggested that in this thread, otherwise I'd have 
a discourse up and running for TW already. At it's cheapest it costs $10/ 
month to self host it, closer to $20 with a higher user count. Discussion 
around this topic as a community is needed precisely because user 
dissatisfaction with GG is growing and there are actually good options 
available at this time.
 

> IMO eating our own dog food would bring things closer together. 
>

I've been hearing variations of this since 2008. The difference is there 
weren't any really well put together open source alternatives back then, 
there are now. 

> But I know; talk is cheap, especially from someone who doesn't really 
know what it takes.

It is very easy to underestimate the time and resources it would take to 
invent our own forum solution. Not to mention that most of that work 
wouldn't be universally useful and we would still need to pay for hosting 
and maintenance. If as a community we can't pull together $50 a month for 
hosting fees at this time, we *definitely* don't have the resources to take 
this on. Nor would it be the best prioritization of resources even if we 
did.


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Re: [tw5] Re: [Comment] My Ongoing Irritations with Google Groups

[Finn Lancaster]

Hey all!

Just checking out this thread, I would like to add my dissatisfaction with
GG, which I find to be dis-intuitive and old-feeling. Looking at some ideas
for a new platform, I can see that most of them cost either money, or lots
and lots of time. As I feel that much of the community seems to shy-away
from groups such as discord, etc, I would like to add freeflarum
https://freeflarum.com
to the list.
In short, FreeFlarum is a free forum software, which is not super-popular,
but nonetheless extremely powerful. In its free tier, it offers custom
domain via DNS, admins, and sign-ups. Having used it briefly for my own
site a while back, I found it really easy-to-use and functional.
What this would mean is that FreeFlarum could be added directly to
TiddlyWiki.com as a subdomain, and allow anyone to sign-up and post. An
issue that I see off the bat, however, is whether it’ll be around a long
time, since it is hard to judge right now.

On Sun, May 30, 2021 at 4:34 PM Mat  wrote:

> Saq Imtiaz wrote:
>
>> The effort and resources required to implement a good discussion system
>> are *quite substantial, *and personally I think better spent on various
>> other needs in the community.
>>
>
> Yeah, no doubt it would be a substantial effort. But on the other hand
> there's no particular rush AND I think it would bring a lot of enhancement
> to TW itself. A most glaring lack in TW is probably "multi user
> capabilities" and tools for collaboration. I'm sure we lose a lot of people
> because of this, particularly "business" use cases. "Multi use" is of
> course only one aspect for a discussion system but I also think there is a
> lot that is already solved or at least half-solved with TW just with what
> we already have.
>
> Lastly, the user split is already a reality.
>>
>
> Yeah... and that is why I spontaneously dislike these new "let's change
> forums" initiatives. I think they are more destructive than constructive.
> For one, IF a move is to be done it needs the endorsement of Big J. Where
> he goes, the crowd has to go. So just "registering a new TW group"
> somewhere... poor idea.
>
> IMO eating our own dog food would bring things closer together. It would
> be the flagship real life use case for a product that current doesn't
> really have any real official use case demo other than the "TW website".
> Why should a company, or even just someone with high demands, *trust *that
> TW can *perform IRL*?
>
> But I know; talk is cheap, especially from someone who doesn't really know
> what it takes.
>
> <:-)
>
>
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> .
>

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[tw5] Re: [Comment] My Ongoing Irritations with Google Groups

[Mat]

Saq Imtiaz wrote:

> The effort and resources required to implement a good discussion system 
> are *quite substantial, *and personally I think better spent on various 
> other needs in the community.
>

Yeah, no doubt it would be a substantial effort. But on the other hand 
there's no particular rush AND I think it would bring a lot of enhancement 
to TW itself. A most glaring lack in TW is probably "multi user 
capabilities" and tools for collaboration. I'm sure we lose a lot of people 
because of this, particularly "business" use cases. "Multi use" is of 
course only one aspect for a discussion system but I also think there is a 
lot that is already solved or at least half-solved with TW just with what 
we already have. 

Lastly, the user split is already a reality.
>

Yeah... and that is why I spontaneously dislike these new "let's change 
forums" initiatives. I think they are more destructive than constructive. 
For one, IF a move is to be done it needs the endorsement of Big J. Where 
he goes, the crowd has to go. So just "registering a new TW group" 
somewhere... poor idea.

IMO eating our own dog food would bring things closer together. It would be 
the flagship real life use case for a product that current doesn't really 
have any real official use case demo other than the "TW website". Why 
should a company, or even just someone with high demands, *trust *that TW 
can *perform IRL*?

But I know; talk is cheap, especially from someone who doesn't really know 
what it takes.

<:-)


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[tw5] Re: [Comment] My Ongoing Irritations with Google Groups

[Mat]

Mark S. wrote:

> I think a $1200 solution is a non-starter.  There might be enough 
> enthusiasm for it this year, but what happens when it becomes defunded in 
> two years? Three years? Suddenly everything is lost. Not even GG is that 
> bad. 
>
 
We are IMO, unfortunately, *forced *to agree with this.

You might look at groups.io, a professional forum solution which has a free 
> tier which is still very good.
>

I don't know the details but I feel there is a general risk in being tied 
up in someone elses solution. Critical word is "tied up". Who owns the 
data? Even if we own the data, can it be exported? For free? Forever? Etc. 
 

> Interesting topics and solutions could be entered into tiddlylinks.
>

Let's at least explore ideas along these lines.

<:-)

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[tw5] Re: [Comment] My Ongoing Irritations with Google Groups

['Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki]

Interesting topics and solutions could be entered into tiddlylinks.

I think a $1200 solution is a non-starter.  There might be enough 
enthusiasm for it this year, but what happens when it becomes defunded in 
two years? Three years? Suddenly everything is lost. Not even GG is that 
bad.

You might look at groups.io, a professional forum solution which has a free 
tier which is still very good.

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[tw5] Re: [Comment] My Ongoing Irritations with Google Groups

[ludwa6]

Dooh! Thanks @saq for the helpful clarification (  /walt leaves the 
conversation to those who actually know what they are talking about :-)


On Sunday, May 30, 2021 at 2:57:31 PM UTC+1 saq.i...@gmail.com wrote:

> *Some clarification:*
>
> Discord  and Discourse  
> are not the same. The former is primarily a real time chat, while the 
> latter is an open source forum software.
>
... 

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[tw5] Re: [Comment] My Ongoing Irritations with Google Groups

[Saq Imtiaz]

*Some clarification:*

Discord  and Discourse  
are not the same. The former is primarily a real time chat, while the 
latter is an open source forum software.

Discourse is open source and free to self-host. Paying for professional 
hosting is worth it for the reliability it would bring. You own your own 
data, can migrate to other hosts etc, there is no reliance on any central 
authority. You can also extend it with plugins.

The effort and resources required to implement a good discussion system are 
*quite substantial, 
*and personally I think better spent on various other needs in the 
community.

Lastly, the user split is already a reality. Stay within the confines of GG 
you just don't see it. A lot of users end up on reddit or discord precisely 
because they don't want to use GG, and I suspect most of them don't have 
the best experience with the community (and possibly give up on TW early) 
because those channels are not particularly active.

Saq

On Sunday, May 30, 2021 at 3:45:31 PM UTC+2 ludwa6 wrote:

> Not to keep banging the Discord drum- there's a bigger conversation here 
> that needs to run its course -but i have to ask, since there's a question 
> in the air about hosting:  Re this "TiddlyWiki 5" server that i have in my 
> Discord client (has a blue w/ white "T5" icon in server browser): Where is 
> this server hosted? Is it paid or free?  Looks like "saqimtiaz" is one of 
> that server's more active users, so maybe @saq can give some context about 
> this...
>
> For my part: i joined the Discord party to access the Fission server, when 
> i was trying to get my tiddlywiki.fission.app working, and needed support 
> to get that working.  Got some great help in real-time from a few of the 
> good people there, low-latency interaction being one of the great 
> advantages Discord has over GG, and sorted the problem out right quick.  Am 
> guessing that i acquired access to the T5 server around that time, via 
> pointage from one of the Fission channels, but in fact i don't know the 
> source. 
>
> PS: Seeing as how Discord login via Google account is an option, as @TT 
> points out w/ screenshot below, that would seem to make migration easy as 
> can be... And maybe there's even a way to mirror discussion threads from 
> here and topic threads over there to update one another (not blow-by-blow; 
> just name of thread / topic).  Another practical point to consider, if & 
> when the higher-level conversation comes down to How :-)
>
> /walt
>
>
> On Sunday, May 30, 2021 at 10:17:43 AM UTC+1 saq.i...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> ...Moving to Discourse isn't going to be a silver bullet. However it 
>> would give us the opportunity to start building towards something better 
>> with tools that help us, rather than continuing to struggle to work around 
>> the limitations of GG; which only seem to be getting worse. 
>>
>
>> Regards,
>> Saq
>>
>> On Sunday, May 30, 2021 at 10:46:22 AM UTC+2 TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>>
>>> Ciao ludwa6
>>>
>>> As I commented to Saq, it can't be just about "is Discourse better?" It 
>>> IS. BUT it is not the central issue though.
>>> There needs to be DEEP THOUGHT about *HOW you could ever transition* 
>>> from here to there without devastating the membership here?
>>>
>>> FWIW, one BIG UPSIDE with Discourse is that you can logon with GOOGLE 
>>> credentials. 
>>> Might seem like a small thing, but those small things matter in easing 
>>> the case for any potential transfer ...
>>>
>>> Best wishes
>>> TT
>>>
>>> [image: Screenshot 2021-05-30 103742.jpg]
>>>
>>> On Sunday, 30 May 2021 at 10:13:39 UTC+2 ludwa6 wrote:
>>>
 I share your pain, @TT... and am +1 @saq's idea about Discourse and how 
 to fund it.  

 I for one would be happy to chip in a few $/month to support this 
 community, and- from earlier discussion thread @Tones initiated (can't 
 seem 
 to find it now; see the problem? :-) -i gather that there be others 
 likewise inclined to fund the community somehow, if only we could find an 
 equitable way to do so.  As discussed, who or what initiative gets funded, 
 and how that gets decided is not a trivial problem... 

 So funding for an improved collaboration infrastructure seems not only 
 perfectly equitable, it also solves what must be (if TT & i  are at all 
 representative) a problem we all share, and an opportunity for more 
 effective collaboration.

 /walt

 On Sunday, May 30, 2021 at 7:50:46 AM UTC+1 saq.i...@gmail.com wrote:

> I would like to see us move to using Discourse 
>  for discussions. In particular the 
> search feature is very well implemented.
>
> Professional hosting ranges $50-100 per month. Personally I think an 
> Open Collective model for where the community chips in with recurring 
> monthly contributions to support that would be a good way to approach it.

[tw5] Re: [Comment] My Ongoing Irritations with Google Groups

[ludwa6]

Not to keep banging the Discord drum- there's a bigger conversation here 
that needs to run its course -but i have to ask, since there's a question 
in the air about hosting:  Re this "TiddlyWiki 5" server that i have in my 
Discord client (has a blue w/ white "T5" icon in server browser): Where is 
this server hosted? Is it paid or free?  Looks like "saqimtiaz" is one of 
that server's more active users, so maybe @saq can give some context about 
this...

For my part: i joined the Discord party to access the Fission server, when 
i was trying to get my tiddlywiki.fission.app working, and needed support 
to get that working.  Got some great help in real-time from a few of the 
good people there, low-latency interaction being one of the great 
advantages Discord has over GG, and sorted the problem out right quick.  Am 
guessing that i acquired access to the T5 server around that time, via 
pointage from one of the Fission channels, but in fact i don't know the 
source. 

PS: Seeing as how Discord login via Google account is an option, as @TT 
points out w/ screenshot below, that would seem to make migration easy as 
can be... And maybe there's even a way to mirror discussion threads from 
here and topic threads over there to update one another (not blow-by-blow; 
just name of thread / topic).  Another practical point to consider, if & 
when the higher-level conversation comes down to How :-)

/walt


On Sunday, May 30, 2021 at 10:17:43 AM UTC+1 saq.i...@gmail.com wrote:

> ...Moving to Discourse isn't going to be a silver bullet. However it would 
> give us the opportunity to start building towards something better with 
> tools that help us, rather than continuing to struggle to work around the 
> limitations of GG; which only seem to be getting worse. 
>
> Regards,
> Saq
>
> On Sunday, May 30, 2021 at 10:46:22 AM UTC+2 TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>
>> Ciao ludwa6
>>
>> As I commented to Saq, it can't be just about "is Discourse better?" It 
>> IS. BUT it is not the central issue though.
>> There needs to be DEEP THOUGHT about *HOW you could ever transition* 
>> from here to there without devastating the membership here?
>>
>> FWIW, one BIG UPSIDE with Discourse is that you can logon with GOOGLE 
>> credentials. 
>> Might seem like a small thing, but those small things matter in easing 
>> the case for any potential transfer ...
>>
>> Best wishes
>> TT
>>
>> [image: Screenshot 2021-05-30 103742.jpg]
>>
>> On Sunday, 30 May 2021 at 10:13:39 UTC+2 ludwa6 wrote:
>>
>>> I share your pain, @TT... and am +1 @saq's idea about Discourse and how 
>>> to fund it.  
>>>
>>> I for one would be happy to chip in a few $/month to support this 
>>> community, and- from earlier discussion thread @Tones initiated (can't seem 
>>> to find it now; see the problem? :-) -i gather that there be others 
>>> likewise inclined to fund the community somehow, if only we could find an 
>>> equitable way to do so.  As discussed, who or what initiative gets funded, 
>>> and how that gets decided is not a trivial problem... 
>>>
>>> So funding for an improved collaboration infrastructure seems not only 
>>> perfectly equitable, it also solves what must be (if TT & i  are at all 
>>> representative) a problem we all share, and an opportunity for more 
>>> effective collaboration.
>>>
>>> /walt
>>>
>>> On Sunday, May 30, 2021 at 7:50:46 AM UTC+1 saq.i...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>
 I would like to see us move to using Discourse 
  for discussions. In particular the search 
 feature is very well implemented.

 Professional hosting ranges $50-100 per month. Personally I think an 
 Open Collective model for where the community chips in with recurring 
 monthly contributions to support that would be a good way to approach it.

 On Sunday, May 30, 2021 at 8:34:37 AM UTC+2 TiddlyTweeter wrote:

> This Google Group is OUR main end-user forum. 
>
> There are problems with Google Groups. More recently it was 
> "dumbed-down" by Google. A lot of tools just disappeared. That just made 
> it 
> worse for OUR needs.
>
> And, long term, it has proved to also have NO DECENT MEMORY. 
> Search here is the Total Pits.
>
> WHAT happens as a result of that?
>
> A VERY common pattern that happens daily here is RE-CREATION OF THE 
> WHEEL. 
> GG lacks any easy, structured, way to interrogate the VAST 
> knowledge-base that this GG actually IS. 
> SO, again and again, you see very similar queries come up and be 
> patiently RE-answered.
>
> I think a much BETTER way would be to leverage off the knowledge 
> accumulated here and direct users first to already EXTANT solutions.
>
> I'm not sure it is possible. 
> But repetition of the variants on the same question is a waste, I 
> think?
>
> Just comments
> TT
>


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[tw5] Re: [Comment] My Ongoing Irritations with Google Groups

[Mat]

First: Any other solution than what we have is probably more likely to 
split the users than to unite them. This is a main reason why I don't 
participate in any other group than this one (and the gh dev group). 

Second: There is reason to be skeptical of any central system. If they 
decide to X there's probably nothing we can do about it.

*So if we are willing to pay for something, then we don't we just pay for 
storage and then build our own system using TW?* These chats and threads 
are conceptually very close to tiddlers. This would:
- probably unite the community
- obviously further improve TW itself
- be under our full control and we can tailor it to our exact needs

Need a great search feature? - Probably doable. 
Extract great replies to be part of docs? - No prob. 
Google decides to put GG to rest? - Google who!? 
Discord is blocked in China? - Well, our db is mirrored on X. 
I want to upvote PMario to annoy him but also because I think he is 
brilliant. - OK, install the voting plugin in your representation of the 
community TW. 

If some of the big boys were willing to fiddle with this, I'd be happy to 
be one of the financial contributors. I'm not a gazillionaire but after 
having now used TW for almost 15 years I've realized that TW is simply a 
part of my identity and I will likely stick with it for many years to come. 
I might as well spend some money on this as anything else meaningful in my 
life.

<:-)

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[tw5] Re: [Comment] My Ongoing Irritations with Google Groups

[TiddlyTweeter]

PMario wrote:

> TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>
>> Tagging posts proved to be not adequate here.
>>
>
> That's right.
>

 Taggery in the short time I been in this group has gone from virtually 
none to "open-house". "Open-house" was good in  a way in that there was 
more frequent usage of tags. But it was "abused" so it was stopped. AND, 
thereafter, taggery here went back to near silence/irrelevance.

It remains an interesting issue, I think. 
Part of the issue with TW is its potential is so VAST that tags can breed 
to infinitude. 
HOW would you delimit tags to a logical set? 
I'm not sure it is even possible?

Questions only. No answers on this one.
TT

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[tw5] Re: [Comment] My Ongoing Irritations with Google Groups

[TiddlyTweeter]

>
> TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>
>> It is terrible on Search. 
>
> PMario wrote: 

> That's right. ... Most of the time, I have to search for my own name to 
> find threads, where I replied to :/. ... Or I have to filter for "stars". I 
> do "star" every answer or thread, that I think may be interesting in the 
> future for me. ..
>

RIGHT! One THOUGHT I had* (odd as it sounds) *was we might in  TiddlyWiki 
itself make a BETTER search engine/argument for this Google Group than the 
default group search Google provides? GGs take URL arguments for search 
easily, so why don't we think about that more?

I DEFINITELY think that could be worth experimenting with. 

Best wishes
TT


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[tw5] Re: [Comment] My Ongoing Irritations with Google Groups

[TiddlyTweeter]

PMario wrote ...

> I think, this is a strength here in the group, that questions are 
> answered, even if they have been asked in a slightly different way. ... At 
> least we post a link or two. ... I think this is much more welcoming, than "
> RTFM " ...
>

*I AGREE with that 100%.* The level of PROBLEM SOLVING is very high and 
very friendly in this Google Group.
It is* exceptionally* good.

The PROBLEM is TOMORROW!

You simply can't easily find past solutions because the Search is so POOR.

That is RUINING the potential of this group!
Everything goes down the toilet within days.
 
Best wishes
TT

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[tw5] Re: [Comment] My Ongoing Irritations with Google Groups

[TiddlyTweeter]

Ste wrote:

> Just looking at discourse home page it's free but the minimum hosting is 
> $100 a month and they also do free free for open source projects. We is 
> open source. Can we has free? 
> I'm a little confused about what's free and what's worth $100 a month. 
>

I think a far BIGGER issue is "HOW DO WE GET SEVERAL THOUSAND MEMBERS TO 
WANT TO MOVE THERE?" 

Just a comment
TT

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[tw5] Re: [Comment] My Ongoing Irritations with Google Groups

[TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao PMario

I thought your post interesting and reflective ...

I WOULD upvote it IF I could, which I can't :-)

PMario wrote:

> What is this needed for? -- 
>

It CAN signal EXCELLENCE.
 

> I personally think this is discriminating. 
>

Ermmm. Yes! But it is not like "racism". 
It is an expression of "preference".
 

> Why should my answer be worth more or have a higher "counter" than an 
> answer from someone else? ...
>

*Because you are better? :-) *

Best wishes
TT

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[tw5] Re: [Comment] My Ongoing Irritations with Google Groups

[Ste]

Just looking at discourse home page it's free but the minimum hosting is 
$100 a month and they also do free free for open source projects. We is 
open source. Can we has free? 
I'm a little confused about what's free and what's worth $100 a month. 

On Sunday, 30 May 2021 at 12:15:07 UTC+1 PMario wrote:

> On Sunday, May 30, 2021 at 10:04:26 AM UTC+2 TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>
> In past discussions, some quite passionate (I wish I could QUOTE from 
>> them, but OF COURSE* I can't find them!  *Lol -:), led to a number of 
>> initiatives.
>> The most significant long-lasting one being TiddlyWiki on REDDIT, still 
>> run by Riz, https://www.reddit.com/r/TiddlyWiki5/
>>
>
> I'm sorry to say but for me the UI there is even worse than the UI here. 
> ... And reading threads on other groups at /r/ the "tone" of many posts 
> isn't welcoming. eg: A common answer is: "This has been answered already", 
> go search for it. 
>
> I think, this is a strength here in the group, that questions are 
> answered, even if they have been asked in a slightly different way. ... At 
> least we post a link or two. ... I think this is much more welcoming, than "
> RTFM " ...
>  
>
>> It is terrible on Search. 
>>
>
> That's right. ... Most of the time, I have to search for my own name to 
> find threads, where I replied to :/. ... Or I have to filter for "stars". I 
> do "star" every answer or thread, that I think may be interesting in the 
> future for me. .. 
>  
>
>> Upvote does not exist. 
>>
>
> What is this needed for? -- I personally think this is discriminating. Why 
> should my answer be worth more or have a higher "counter" than an answer 
> from someone else? ... 
>
> On an other platform, that starts with "s" and ends wit "overflow" the 
> best answers for me are usually near the middle or the end of the list. ... 
> Because most of the time, my problem isn't 100% the same to the OT but 
> similar enough to find useful hints. ... 
>
> Why should I risk to answer a question, where I'm not 100% sure if I do 
> get upvotes. ... Why should I risk to get "downvoted" for a "wrong" answer, 
> just because I didn't understand the OT right.
>
> --
>
> I would be OK if the original author _only_ has the possibility to "mark 
> an answer" as "This answer made it work for me" .. OR a general "I found a 
> solution. Thanks for helping me out"
>
> Tagging posts proved to be not adequate here.
>>
>
> That's right.
>
> just my thoughts.
> mario
>

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[tw5] Re: [Comment] My Ongoing Irritations with Google Groups

[PMario]

On Sunday, May 30, 2021 at 10:04:26 AM UTC+2 TiddlyTweeter wrote:

In past discussions, some quite passionate (I wish I could QUOTE from them, 
> but OF COURSE* I can't find them!  *Lol -:), led to a number of 
> initiatives.
> The most significant long-lasting one being TiddlyWiki on REDDIT, still 
> run by Riz, https://www.reddit.com/r/TiddlyWiki5/
>

I'm sorry to say but for me the UI there is even worse than the UI here. 
... And reading threads on other groups at /r/ the "tone" of many posts 
isn't welcoming. eg: A common answer is: "This has been answered already", 
go search for it. 

I think, this is a strength here in the group, that questions are answered, 
even if they have been asked in a slightly different way. ... At least we 
post a link or two. ... I think this is much more welcoming, than "RTFM 
" ...
 

> It is terrible on Search. 
>

That's right. ... Most of the time, I have to search for my own name to 
find threads, where I replied to :/. ... Or I have to filter for "stars". I 
do "star" every answer or thread, that I think may be interesting in the 
future for me. .. 
 

> Upvote does not exist. 
>

What is this needed for? -- I personally think this is discriminating. Why 
should my answer be worth more or have a higher "counter" than an answer 
from someone else? ... 

On an other platform, that starts with "s" and ends wit "overflow" the best 
answers for me are usually near the middle or the end of the list. ... 
Because most of the time, my problem isn't 100% the same to the OT but 
similar enough to find useful hints. ... 

Why should I risk to answer a question, where I'm not 100% sure if I do get 
upvotes. ... Why should I risk to get "downvoted" for a "wrong" answer, 
just because I didn't understand the OT right.

--

I would be OK if the original author _only_ has the possibility to "mark an 
answer" as "This answer made it work for me" .. OR a general "I found a 
solution. Thanks for helping me out"

Tagging posts proved to be not adequate here.
>

That's right.

just my thoughts.
mario

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[tw5] Re: [Comment] My Ongoing Irritations with Google Groups

[TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Saq,

VERY interesting, thoughtful, post! 
I would UPVOTE it if Google Groups supported upvoting! :-)

>> start building towards something better with tools that help us, rather 
than continuing to struggle to work around the limitations of GG; which 
only seem to be getting worse. 

It is certainly true that changes Google made to Groups in the recent past 
simply *removed functions* without adding anything useful new.
Using it is increasingly *inefficient*.

TBH, I'm not fully sure what the best workable solution is to this REAL 
problem with GG. 

What IS clear is the case for CHANGE is getting much stronger.

Best wishes
TT

On Sunday, 30 May 2021 at 11:17:43 UTC+2 saq.i...@gmail.com wrote:

> @TT I've been in this group on and off since 2006. I've seen some if not 
> all of the discussions around GG shortcomings and alternatives.
>
> I've been one of the people previously worried about losing membership if 
> we transitioned away from GG. However especially with the recent GG 
> changes, at this point I think GG is stifling growth and not serving 
> existing members well either. It happens a couple of times a week on 
> average that I lose a long post I was writing to address a users questions 
> because the GG UI glitches out in longer posts.
>
> I think we aren't far off the point - if not already there - where the 
> negatives of staying on GG are outweighing the cost of moving to another 
> platform. 
>
> You mentioned reddit, and it is worth keeping in mind that a lot of the 
> reddit users aren't comfortable using a Google product which is difficult 
> to use without a Google account. A solution with multiple sign in options 
> is a plus in this regard. Another requirements for some users on GG has 
> been being able to subscribe via email. Discourse has pretty robust 
> features in this regard as well which would help with a transition. 
>
> Moving to Discourse isn't going to be a silver bullet. However it would 
> give us the opportunity to start building towards something better with 
> tools that help us, rather than continuing to struggle to work around the 
> limitations of GG; which only seem to be getting worse. 
>
> Regards,
> Saq
>
> On Sunday, May 30, 2021 at 10:46:22 AM UTC+2 TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>
>> Ciao ludwa6
>>
>> As I commented to Saq, it can't be just about "is Discourse better?" It 
>> IS. BUT it is not the central issue though.
>> There needs to be DEEP THOUGHT about *HOW you could ever transition* 
>> from here to there without devastating the membership here?
>>
>> FWIW, one BIG UPSIDE with Discourse is that you can logon with GOOGLE 
>> credentials. 
>> Might seem like a small thing, but those small things matter in easing 
>> the case for any potential transfer ...
>>
>> Best wishes
>> TT
>>
>> [image: Screenshot 2021-05-30 103742.jpg]
>>
>> On Sunday, 30 May 2021 at 10:13:39 UTC+2 ludwa6 wrote:
>>
>>> I share your pain, @TT... and am +1 @saq's idea about Discourse and how 
>>> to fund it.  
>>>
>>> I for one would be happy to chip in a few $/month to support this 
>>> community, and- from earlier discussion thread @Tones initiated (can't seem 
>>> to find it now; see the problem? :-) -i gather that there be others 
>>> likewise inclined to fund the community somehow, if only we could find an 
>>> equitable way to do so.  As discussed, who or what initiative gets funded, 
>>> and how that gets decided is not a trivial problem... 
>>>
>>> So funding for an improved collaboration infrastructure seems not only 
>>> perfectly equitable, it also solves what must be (if TT & i  are at all 
>>> representative) a problem we all share, and an opportunity for more 
>>> effective collaboration.
>>>
>>> /walt
>>>
>>> On Sunday, May 30, 2021 at 7:50:46 AM UTC+1 saq.i...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>
 I would like to see us move to using Discourse 
  for discussions. In particular the search 
 feature is very well implemented.

 Professional hosting ranges $50-100 per month. Personally I think an 
 Open Collective model for where the community chips in with recurring 
 monthly contributions to support that would be a good way to approach it.

 On Sunday, May 30, 2021 at 8:34:37 AM UTC+2 TiddlyTweeter wrote:

> This Google Group is OUR main end-user forum. 
>
> There are problems with Google Groups. More recently it was 
> "dumbed-down" by Google. A lot of tools just disappeared. That just made 
> it 
> worse for OUR needs.
>
> And, long term, it has proved to also have NO DECENT MEMORY. 
> Search here is the Total Pits.
>
> WHAT happens as a result of that?
>
> A VERY common pattern that happens daily here is RE-CREATION OF THE 
> WHEEL. 
> GG lacks any easy, structured, way to interrogate the VAST 
> knowledge-base that this GG actually IS. 
> SO, again and again, you see very similar queries come up and be 
> patiently RE-answered.
>
> I 

[tw5] Re: [Comment] My Ongoing Irritations with Google Groups

[Saq Imtiaz]

@TT I've been in this group on and off since 2006. I've seen some if not 
all of the discussions around GG shortcomings and alternatives.

I've been one of the people previously worried about losing membership if 
we transitioned away from GG. However especially with the recent GG 
changes, at this point I think GG is stifling growth and not serving 
existing members well either. It happens a couple of times a week on 
average that I lose a long post I was writing to address a users questions 
because the GG UI glitches out in longer posts.

I think we aren't far off the point - if not already there - where the 
negatives of staying on GG are outweighing the cost of moving to another 
platform. 

You mentioned reddit, and it is worth keeping in mind that a lot of the 
reddit users aren't comfortable using a Google product which is difficult 
to use without a Google account. A solution with multiple sign in options 
is a plus in this regard. Another requirements for some users on GG has 
been being able to subscribe via email. Discourse has pretty robust 
features in this regard as well which would help with a transition. 

Moving to Discourse isn't going to be a silver bullet. However it would 
give us the opportunity to start building towards something better with 
tools that help us, rather than continuing to struggle to work around the 
limitations of GG; which only seem to be getting worse. 

Regards,
Saq

On Sunday, May 30, 2021 at 10:46:22 AM UTC+2 TiddlyTweeter wrote:

> Ciao ludwa6
>
> As I commented to Saq, it can't be just about "is Discourse better?" It 
> IS. BUT it is not the central issue though.
> There needs to be DEEP THOUGHT about *HOW you could ever transition* from 
> here to there without devastating the membership here?
>
> FWIW, one BIG UPSIDE with Discourse is that you can logon with GOOGLE 
> credentials. 
> Might seem like a small thing, but those small things matter in easing the 
> case for any potential transfer ...
>
> Best wishes
> TT
>
> [image: Screenshot 2021-05-30 103742.jpg]
>
> On Sunday, 30 May 2021 at 10:13:39 UTC+2 ludwa6 wrote:
>
>> I share your pain, @TT... and am +1 @saq's idea about Discourse and how 
>> to fund it.  
>>
>> I for one would be happy to chip in a few $/month to support this 
>> community, and- from earlier discussion thread @Tones initiated (can't seem 
>> to find it now; see the problem? :-) -i gather that there be others 
>> likewise inclined to fund the community somehow, if only we could find an 
>> equitable way to do so.  As discussed, who or what initiative gets funded, 
>> and how that gets decided is not a trivial problem... 
>>
>> So funding for an improved collaboration infrastructure seems not only 
>> perfectly equitable, it also solves what must be (if TT & i  are at all 
>> representative) a problem we all share, and an opportunity for more 
>> effective collaboration.
>>
>> /walt
>>
>> On Sunday, May 30, 2021 at 7:50:46 AM UTC+1 saq.i...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> I would like to see us move to using Discourse 
>>>  for discussions. In particular the search 
>>> feature is very well implemented.
>>>
>>> Professional hosting ranges $50-100 per month. Personally I think an 
>>> Open Collective model for where the community chips in with recurring 
>>> monthly contributions to support that would be a good way to approach it.
>>>
>>> On Sunday, May 30, 2021 at 8:34:37 AM UTC+2 TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>>>
 This Google Group is OUR main end-user forum. 

 There are problems with Google Groups. More recently it was 
 "dumbed-down" by Google. A lot of tools just disappeared. That just made 
 it 
 worse for OUR needs.

 And, long term, it has proved to also have NO DECENT MEMORY. 
 Search here is the Total Pits.

 WHAT happens as a result of that?

 A VERY common pattern that happens daily here is RE-CREATION OF THE 
 WHEEL. 
 GG lacks any easy, structured, way to interrogate the VAST 
 knowledge-base that this GG actually IS. 
 SO, again and again, you see very similar queries come up and be 
 patiently RE-answered.

 I think a much BETTER way would be to leverage off the knowledge 
 accumulated here and direct users first to already EXTANT solutions.

 I'm not sure it is possible. 
 But repetition of the variants on the same question is a waste, I think?

 Just comments
 TT

>>>

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[tw5] Re: [Comment] My Ongoing Irritations with Google Groups

[ludwa6]

I share your pain, @TT... and am +1 @saq's idea about Discourse and how to 
fund it.  

I for one would be happy to chip in a few $/month to support this 
community, and- from earlier discussion thread @Tones initiated (can't seem 
to find it now; see the problem? :-) -i gather that there be others 
likewise inclined to fund the community somehow, if only we could find an 
equitable way to do so.  As discussed, who or what initiative gets funded, 
and how that gets decided is not a trivial problem... 

So funding for an improved collaboration infrastructure seems not only 
perfectly equitable, it also solves what must be (if TT & i  are at all 
representative) a problem we all share, and an opportunity for more 
effective collaboration.

/walt

On Sunday, May 30, 2021 at 7:50:46 AM UTC+1 saq.i...@gmail.com wrote:

> I would like to see us move to using Discourse 
>  for discussions. In particular the search 
> feature is very well implemented.
>
> Professional hosting ranges $50-100 per month. Personally I think an Open 
> Collective model for where the community chips in with recurring monthly 
> contributions to support that would be a good way to approach it.
>
> On Sunday, May 30, 2021 at 8:34:37 AM UTC+2 TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>
>> This Google Group is OUR main end-user forum. 
>>
>> There are problems with Google Groups. More recently it was "dumbed-down" 
>> by Google. A lot of tools just disappeared. That just made it worse for OUR 
>> needs.
>>
>> And, long term, it has proved to also have NO DECENT MEMORY. 
>> Search here is the Total Pits.
>>
>> WHAT happens as a result of that?
>>
>> A VERY common pattern that happens daily here is RE-CREATION OF THE 
>> WHEEL. 
>> GG lacks any easy, structured, way to interrogate the VAST knowledge-base 
>> that this GG actually IS. 
>> SO, again and again, you see very similar queries come up and be 
>> patiently RE-answered.
>>
>> I think a much BETTER way would be to leverage off the knowledge 
>> accumulated here and direct users first to already EXTANT solutions.
>>
>> I'm not sure it is possible. 
>> But repetition of the variants on the same question is a waste, I think?
>>
>> Just comments
>> TT
>>
>

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[tw5] Re: [Comment] My Ongoing Irritations with Google Groups

[TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao saq.i ...

I don't how long you been in this group?

What I do know is regularly, over a few years, the inadequacies of Google 
Groups has be re-hashed several times in serious posts about it.

In past discussions, some quite passionate (I wish I could QUOTE from them, 
but OF COURSE* I can't find them!  *Lol -:), led to a number of initiatives.
The most significant long-lasting one being TiddlyWiki on REDDIT, still run 
by Riz, https://www.reddit.com/r/TiddlyWiki5/

*What emerged is the LOGISTICS of fully switching away from  this Google 
Group to a new forum would be VERY complicated and, finally, likely, very 
damaging to the existing membership base. SO, the inertia to change is 
necessarily huge.*

MY query here is really about HOW TO MAKE THE BEST OF WHAT WE HAVE? on 
Google Groups.
BUT, it seems, with additional recent changes by Google to its functioning 
what we have right now is only the FLEETING MOMENT. Meaning, GG is good for 
immediate discussions but NOTHING much else. 
(Basically it is "Usenet" thread format dating back to 1631 :-) 
It is terrible on Search. 
Upvote does not exist. 
Tagging posts proved to be not adequate here.

*WHERE, does that leave us?*
In the same place.
With a forum that throws its own history down the drain every day. :-(

Just comments from a normally sanguine person
TT  
On Sunday, 30 May 2021 at 08:50:46 UTC+2 saq.i...@gmail.com wrote:

> I would like to see us move to using Discourse 
>  for discussions. In particular the search 
> feature is very well implemented.
>
> Professional hosting ranges $50-100 per month. Personally I think an Open 
> Collective model for where the community chips in with recurring monthly 
> contributions to support that would be a good way to approach it.
>
> On Sunday, May 30, 2021 at 8:34:37 AM UTC+2 TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>
>> This Google Group is OUR main end-user forum. 
>>
>> There are problems with Google Groups. More recently it was "dumbed-down" 
>> by Google. A lot of tools just disappeared. That just made it worse for OUR 
>> needs.
>>
>> And, long term, it has proved to also have NO DECENT MEMORY. 
>> Search here is the Total Pits.
>>
>> WHAT happens as a result of that?
>>
>> A VERY common pattern that happens daily here is RE-CREATION OF THE 
>> WHEEL. 
>> GG lacks any easy, structured, way to interrogate the VAST knowledge-base 
>> that this GG actually IS. 
>> SO, again and again, you see very similar queries come up and be 
>> patiently RE-answered.
>>
>> I think a much BETTER way would be to leverage off the knowledge 
>> accumulated here and direct users first to already EXTANT solutions.
>>
>> I'm not sure it is possible. 
>> But repetition of the variants on the same question is a waste, I think?
>>
>> Just comments
>> TT
>>
>

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[tw5] Re: [Comment] My Ongoing Irritations with Google Groups

[Saq Imtiaz]

I would like to see us move to using Discourse  
for discussions. In particular the search feature is very well implemented.

Professional hosting ranges $50-100 per month. Personally I think an Open 
Collective model for where the community chips in with recurring monthly 
contributions to support that would be a good way to approach it.

On Sunday, May 30, 2021 at 8:34:37 AM UTC+2 TiddlyTweeter wrote:

> This Google Group is OUR main end-user forum. 
>
> There are problems with Google Groups. More recently it was "dumbed-down" 
> by Google. A lot of tools just disappeared. That just made it worse for OUR 
> needs.
>
> And, long term, it has proved to also have NO DECENT MEMORY. 
> Search here is the Total Pits.
>
> WHAT happens as a result of that?
>
> A VERY common pattern that happens daily here is RE-CREATION OF THE WHEEL. 
> GG lacks any easy, structured, way to interrogate the VAST knowledge-base 
> that this GG actually IS. 
> SO, again and again, you see very similar queries come up and be patiently 
> RE-answered.
>
> I think a much BETTER way would be to leverage off the knowledge 
> accumulated here and direct users first to already EXTANT solutions.
>
> I'm not sure it is possible. 
> But repetition of the variants on the same question is a waste, I think?
>
> Just comments
> TT
>

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