[tw5] Re: Creating and Selling Software Tools based on Tiddlywiki

[Jed Carty]

I think that this points to some fundamental philosophical disagreements about 
what we are trying to make with tiddlywiki that would take up more space than 
is appropriate here.

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[tw5] Re: Creating and Selling Software Tools based on Tiddlywiki

[TonyM]

Jed,

Then I am curious why you are not celebrating with me that there is nothing 
on my *"list that is both not implemented and do able within the framework 
of tiddlywiki."*

I believe, I did state clearly a range of features that we need. If you 
look into what I have said for example, you will see that If we can develop 
a manifest *below* that will enable tiddlywiki install to devices, we can 
leverage the universal install possibilities to mobile and desktop. If we 
can Get tiddlywiki to operate just as PWA's operate but under our terms, 
even without compliance we may have a better alternative.   

I am happy to develop the details more to generate actions but my first 
step was to point out this is where the technology is going and TiddlyWiki 
is in a great place to respond. It did not feel I had any supporters, only 
critics.

Regards
Tony

*Manifest*

*The web app manifest is a W3C 
 specification 
defining a JSON -based manifest 
(usually labelled manifest.json)[13] 

 to 
provide developers a centralized place to put metadata 
 associated with a web application 
including:*

   - *The name of the web application*
   - *Links to the web app icons or image objects*
   - *The preferred URL to launch or open the web app*
   - *The web app configuration data*
   - *Default orientation of the web app*
   - *The option to set the display mode, e.g. full screen*

*This metadata is crucial for an app to be added to a home screen or 
otherwise listed alongside native apps.*

On Monday, July 8, 2019 at 7:52:38 PM UTC+10, Jed Carty wrote:
>
> I am not trying to prove you wrong, I am asking what on the list is 
> actionable. I don't see anything on your list that is both not implemented 
> and doable within the framework of tiddlywiki.
>
> If you are asking for features than we need to have a clear understanding 
> of what those features are in order to do anything about implementing them. 
> As it is I think that I am missing some fundamental part of what you are 
> describing.
>

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[tw5] Re: Creating and Selling Software Tools based on Tiddlywiki

[Jed Carty]

I am not trying to prove you wrong, I am asking what on the list is 
actionable. I don't see anything on your list that is both not implemented 
and doable within the framework of tiddlywiki.

If you are asking for features than we need to have a clear understanding 
of what those features are in order to do anything about implementing them. 
As it is I think that I am missing some fundamental part of what you are 
describing.

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[tw5] Re: Creating and Selling Software Tools based on Tiddlywiki

[TonyM]

Jed

With respect I wonder if you read my last post. I go to lengths to separate my 
comments from the PWA standard, I demonstrate I understand your perspective on 
local storage. Please try and read my words with generosity not just to prove 
me wrong. 

Tony

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[tw5] Re: Creating and Selling Software Tools based on Tiddlywiki

[Jed Carty]

Tony,

Which of those things (which I addressed in my previous post) is both 1) 
not already part of tiddlywiki and 2) something that would be done in the 
tiddlywiki core?

What is preventing your evaluation app from being successful in an App 
Store?

As an aside:

localStorage that we have been talking about isn't persistent memory on a 
device, it is a specific browser technology that can be used for temporary 
caching. It can be cleared or overwritten at any time and is explicitly not 
for persistent data. Saving to localstorage will not work as a saving 
solution. This is completely different from what the node-based servers 
(including Bob) use. The two things have absolutely nothing to do with each 
other. Progressive web apps explicitly list localstorange, which is, as 
noted before, explicitly temporary caching used by browsers to hold 
temporary information. They have no special access to the file system aside 
from the very limited access provided by the browsers that we currently 
have and solve none of the problems tiddlywiki has with saving.

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[tw5] Re: Creating and Selling Software Tools based on Tiddlywiki

[TonyM]

Folks,

Jeremy and Jed specifically. When I mentioned Progressive WebAps, I think 
you took me too literally, perhaps that comes with the territory from 
coders.. My point is there is an expectation building and tiddlywiki is 
already well setup to respond to these expectations. Here are the key 
functionalities and I would find it hard to imagine you think any of these 
are not worthy aims.

I must say I am nervous speaking my mind here, but please consider what I 
am saying with the generosity in which it is offered. I may just have 
something worth listening to.

When I mentioned PWA's it is with a view to capabilities for example;

   - *Progressive* — Works for every user, regardless of browser choice,
   - *Responsive* — Fits any form factor: desktop, mobile, tablet, or forms 
   yet to emerge.
   - *Connectivity independent* — Service workers *are one way but we do 
   not need them do we?* allow offline uses, or on low quality networks. *But 
   there are uses out there for which we have methods such as using servers, 
   and tiddlywiki naturally uses the browser cache, and offline works.*
   - *App-like* — Feels like an app to the user with app-style interactions 
   and navigation.
   - *Fresh* — Always up-to-date *(this is a designers choice) and less 
   important when we do not use a server backend, or a **continuous** 
deployment 
   **method**.* 
   - *Safe* — Served via HTTPS  to 
   prevent snooping and ensure content hasn't been tampered with.
   - *Discoverable* — Identifiable as an “application” by manifest.json[13] 
   

 and 
   *service worker registration (if it **necessary**?)*, and discoverable 
   by search engines *(good idea if it means can be appified, optional 
   extra)*
   - *Re-engageable* — Ability to use push notifications 
    to maintain engagement 
   with the user. *Nice optional extra can be implemented via **various*
   * means *
   - *Installable* — Provides homescreen icons without the use of an App 
   Store. *Important in today's world.*
   - *Linkable* — Can easily be shared via a URL, and does not require 
   complex installation. *Almost there except for savers, would if we 
   adopted the approach.*

On the subject of Local Storage, I do not care what the technology is 
called, we need to allow people to obtain this with the minimum effort. The 
current best method for me is Using Timimi and saving files, but since 
there is an increasing dependency on locally stored content, I am sure the 
solutions either are, or will be there for persistence even if there is a 
interactive step that demands authority to do so. Even just an easy install 
node package effectively grants this persistence, not to mention 
tiddlyserver, desktop and Bob, and we can move between folder and file 
versions.


Personally, it’s pretty clear that PWAs are not a universal panacea for 
> TiddlyWiki. Everything about them is designed to work as a cache for an 
> online service, with some limited and crazy support for going offline. So 
> they could have a role with an online TW5 service like Xememex, but don’t 
> help the single file configuration. As I have to say regularly, there’s no 
> way on earth I would commit anything important to browser local storage, 
> nor could I in all good conscience recommend it to anyone else.
>

I not sure anyone, especially me suggested it was *a universal panacea for 
TiddlyWiki* but we do depend on the computers local storage. You may have 
good reason not to trust this mechanism but surely if we find an effective 
solution all the better. Imagine for example, just to propose and 
exception, we packaged a Pouch DB server for every OS and the ability to 
point any wiki to a named database, whilst also able to export to a single 
file. This would provide a reliable and persistent "local storage", one 
that could be connected to from any wiki at any url if desired.
 

> I don’t think the heart of it is even a technology problem. It’s a much 
> deeper philosophical question. In the deepest possible sense, TiddlyWiki is 
> the way that it is because of the context in which it was built and used. 
> It is designed from the ground up as an open source application trying to 
> accommodate the needs of hundreds of thousands of diverse users. Almost 
> every decision I’ve ever taken about TiddlyWiki’s development would have 
> been completely different had I been working on a commercial shrink wrapped 
> product.
>

On this I agree, I am not contesting this, and that is what we should stick 
to. 
 

> What I’m trying to say is that the technology and the business model of 
> TiddlyWiki are intimately intertwined. Change the business model too much 
> and suddenly many of those technology choices become liabilities.
>

I agree and do not suggest anything differently, You continue to maintain 

[tw5] Re: Creating and Selling Software Tools based on Tiddlywiki

[TonyM]

Folks,

Jeremy and Jed specifically. When I mentioned Progressive WebAps, I think 
you took me too literally. My point is there is an expectation building and 
tiddlywiki is already well setup to respond to these expectations. Here are 
the key functionalities and I would find it hard to imaging you think any 
of these are not wotrhy aims.


   - *Progressive* — Works for every user, regardless of browser choice, 
   using progressive enhancement 
    principles.
   - *Responsive* — Fits any form factor: desktop, mobile, tablet, or forms 
   yet to emerge.
   - *Connectivity independent* — Service workers *are one way but we do 
   not need them do we?* allow offline uses, or on low quality networks.
   - *App-like* — Feels like an app to the user with app-style interactions 
   and navigation.
   - *Fresh* — Always up-to-date (this is a designers choice) and less 
   importiant when we do not use a server backend. 
   - *Safe* — Served via HTTPS  to 
   prevent snooping and ensure content hasn't been tampered with.
   - *Discoverable* — Identifiable as an “application” by manifest.json[13] 
   

 and 
   service worker registration, and discoverable by search engines.
   - *Re-engageable* — Ability to use push notifications 
    to maintain engagement 
   with the user.
   - *Installable* — Provides homescreen icons without the use of an App 
   Store.
   - *Linkable* — Can easily be shared via a URL, and does not require 
   complex installation.


On Monday, July 8, 2019 at 6:04:40 AM UTC+10, Mohammad wrote:
>
> Thank you all for your time and useful points!
> It seems the conclusion by now and is
>
> Sell your time, it is hard if not impossible to sell TW based apps.
>
>
> Best
> Mohammad
>
>
> On Saturday, July 6, 2019 at 7:00:35 AM UTC-7, passingby wrote:
>>
>> Out of the many plus points of tiddlywiki, I want to point out these:
>>
>> 1. Subscription based software: Everything today has become greedier than 
>> before. Every software out there is subscription based now. If I have to 
>> use MS Office I pay around a CAD 100 and this when I am not even using it 
>> for business.
>> 2. Data with corporations: One not only buys the service but hands over 
>> the data
>>
>> Now there is a Tiddlywiki developer. You pay him, he hacks out a solution 
>> for you. One time fee. You keep the app. If you wish you can hack it 
>> yourself but if you want a professional job you pay a one time fee to a 
>> developer.  
>>
>> There should be a market for this in small business sector. Especially in 
>> context of monthly subscriptions which a small business takes on.
>>
>>
>> On Thursday, July 4, 2019 at 4:36:43 AM UTC-7, Mohammad wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>1. Do you think Tiddlywiki is enough mature to create applications 
>>>(Apps) based on it for commercial use cases?
>>>2. Do you think it is possible to sell such applications  for 
>>>commercial use cases (not for academic or individuals)?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>

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[tw5] Re: Creating and Selling Software Tools based on Tiddlywiki

[Mohammad]

Thank you all for your time and useful points!
It seems the conclusion by now and is

Sell your time, it is hard if not impossible to sell TW based apps.


Best
Mohammad


On Saturday, July 6, 2019 at 7:00:35 AM UTC-7, passingby wrote:
>
> Out of the many plus points of tiddlywiki, I want to point out these:
>
> 1. Subscription based software: Everything today has become greedier than 
> before. Every software out there is subscription based now. If I have to 
> use MS Office I pay around a CAD 100 and this when I am not even using it 
> for business.
> 2. Data with corporations: One not only buys the service but hands over 
> the data
>
> Now there is a Tiddlywiki developer. You pay him, he hacks out a solution 
> for you. One time fee. You keep the app. If you wish you can hack it 
> yourself but if you want a professional job you pay a one time fee to a 
> developer.  
>
> There should be a market for this in small business sector. Especially in 
> context of monthly subscriptions which a small business takes on.
>
>
> On Thursday, July 4, 2019 at 4:36:43 AM UTC-7, Mohammad wrote:
>>
>>
>>1. Do you think Tiddlywiki is enough mature to create applications 
>>(Apps) based on it for commercial use cases?
>>2. Do you think it is possible to sell such applications  for 
>>commercial use cases (not for academic or individuals)?
>>
>>
>>
>>

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[tw5] Re: Creating and Selling Software Tools based on Tiddlywiki

[passingby]

Out of the many plus points of tiddlywiki, I want to point out these:

1. Subscription based software: Everything today has become greedier than 
before. Every software out there is subscription based now. If I have to 
use MS Office I pay around a CAD 100 and this when I am not even using it 
for business.
2. Data with corporations: One not only buys the service but hands over the 
data

Now there is a Tiddlywiki developer. You pay him, he hacks out a solution 
for you. One time fee. You keep the app. If you wish you can hack it 
yourself but if you want a professional job you pay a one time fee to a 
developer.  

There should be a market for this in small business sector. Especially in 
context of monthly subscriptions which a small business takes on.


On Thursday, July 4, 2019 at 4:36:43 AM UTC-7, Mohammad wrote:
>
>
>1. Do you think Tiddlywiki is enough mature to create applications 
>(Apps) based on it for commercial use cases?
>2. Do you think it is possible to sell such applications  for 
>commercial use cases (not for academic or individuals)?
>
>
>
>

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Re: [tw5] Re: Creating and Selling Software Tools based on Tiddlywiki

[Jeremy Ruston]

I fear the discussion has slightly been sidetracked into gnarly technical 
considerations, but it’s hard not to take the bait!

Personally, it’s pretty clear that PWAs are not a universal panacea for 
TiddlyWiki. Everything about them is designed to work as a cache for an online 
service, with some limited and crazy support for going offline. So they could 
have a role with an online TW5 service like Xememex, but don’t help the single 
file configuration. As I have to say regularly, there’s no way on earth I would 
commit anything important to browser local storage, nor could I in all good 
conscience recommend it to anyone else.

I don’t think the heart of it is even a technology problem. It’s a much deeper 
philosophical question. In the deepest possible sense, TiddlyWiki is the way 
that it is because of the context in which it was built and used. It is 
designed from the ground up as an open source application trying to accommodate 
the needs of hundreds of thousands of diverse users. Almost every decision I’ve 
ever taken about TiddlyWiki’s development would have been completely different 
had I been working on a commercial shrink wrapped product.

What I’m trying to say is that the technology and the business model of 
TiddlyWiki are intimately intertwined. Change the business model too much and 
suddenly many of those technology choices become liabilities.

For example, TiddlyWiki allows deep customisation by end users, down to adding 
new JavaScript modules. The only way to get that level of customisation on a 
commercial service would be to buy a low level service like a virtual machine, 
and run something like TiddlyWiki within it. For a business model like, say, 
Evernote’s it is completely impractical to offer that level of customisation 
while taking care of security and keeping support costs reasonable.

I can and do imagine building a shrink wrapped, mass-market product that did 
what TiddlyWiki does, but I’m pretty confident that it’s not possible to turn 
TiddlyWiki 5 into that product in any direct way.

So, that’s why I’m so keen to focus on the opportunities presented by the 
architecture we have now, and the investments we’ve made in it to date. In 
particular, TiddlyWiki 5 has shown how people who are not conventional software 
developers can create intricate custom applications that meet the needs of 
arbitrarily specific niches.

Best wishes

Jeremy



> On 6 Jul 2019, at 05:48, Jed Carty  wrote:
> 
> I am a bit lost about what we would gain by adding the parts of a progressive 
> web app as defined on wikipedia to what already exists with tiddlywiki. 
> 
> Progressive enhancement doesn't fit very well with tiddlywiki as the 
> framework for the wiki has to be loaded before content can be displayed, 
> responsiveness is already part of tiddlywiki even if it could be improved, 
> tiddlywiki has always been connectivity independent, in fact adding service 
> workers would make it more complex and I don't see what they would add
> applike is already true, fresh is a concept that assumes that there is a 
> remote server providing updates and doesn't really apply to tiddlywiki
> Tiddlywiki is independent of the mechanism used to read it, so the safe 
> component is part of the server used and you can't set https as a universal 
> component of tiddlywiki, and it has no real meaning when you are using a 
> local file
> Discoverable doesn't have much meaning for a local application like tiddlywiki
> Re-engagable is something that will result in a rather long rant from me 
> about the relationship between people and technology and privacy. The short 
> bit is that in my opinion push notifications are one of the worst parts of 
> the current iteration of the internet. Also tiddlywiki doesn't have events 
> that would use push notifications without some significant changes and a 
> server implementation beyond what currently exists.
> Installable already fits
> linkable doesn't have meaning if it is a local file, otherwise it is already 
> true.
> 
> So everything in that list is either already part of tiddlywiki or doesn't 
> apply to tiddlywiki as the core wiki. I don't know what benefit we would be 
> getting by adopting 're-engagable' as part of the core with push 
> notifications other than me forking the project to remove push notifications. 
> The same for service workers, there is no reason to make tiddlywiki dependent 
> on a remote server and that would just put limits on it.
> 
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[tw5] Re: Creating and Selling Software Tools based on Tiddlywiki

[Jed Carty]

I am a bit lost about what we would gain by adding the parts of a 
progressive web app as defined on wikipedia to what already exists with 
tiddlywiki. 

Progressive enhancement doesn't fit very well with tiddlywiki as the 
framework for the wiki has to be loaded before content can be displayed, 
responsiveness is already part of tiddlywiki even if it could be improved, 
tiddlywiki has always been connectivity independent, in fact adding service 
workers would make it more complex and I don't see what they would add
applike is already true, fresh is a concept that assumes that there is a 
remote server providing updates and doesn't really apply to tiddlywiki
Tiddlywiki is independent of the mechanism used to read it, so the safe 
component is part of the server used and you can't set https as a universal 
component of tiddlywiki, and it has no real meaning when you are using a 
local file
Discoverable doesn't have much meaning for a local application like 
tiddlywiki
Re-engagable is something that will result in a rather long rant from me 
about the relationship between people and technology and privacy. The short 
bit is that in my opinion push notifications are one of the worst parts of 
the current iteration of the internet. Also tiddlywiki doesn't have events 
that would use push notifications without some significant changes and a 
server implementation beyond what currently exists.
Installable already fits
linkable doesn't have meaning if it is a local file, otherwise it is 
already true.

So everything in that list is either already part of tiddlywiki or doesn't 
apply to tiddlywiki as the core wiki. I don't know what benefit we would be 
getting by adopting 're-engagable' as part of the core with push 
notifications other than me forking the project to remove push 
notifications. The same for service workers, there is no reason to make 
tiddlywiki dependent on a remote server and that would just put limits on 
it.

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[tw5] Re: Creating and Selling Software Tools based on Tiddlywiki

[TonyM]

Folks,

Can I respectfully suggest Once we have the software platform and the 
distribution mechanisms in place all that remains is imagination. I have 
dozens, if not hundreds of ideas for apps and solutions.

Quinoid and Tiddloid are great "wrappers" of tiddlywiki, but they list one 
or more wikis and they need a wiki installed. This is perfect for 
TiddlyWiki enthusiasts. It is not what we want for application deployment 
everytime. Mobiles apps often fit a defined need, this need should be 
reflected in the name/icon so it is simple to click when needed. A way to 
package a single wiki (Progressive Wed app is one way), users do not need 
to know the back story, they need to know what it does, but this will be 
acknowledged in the apps.

I think the current lack of applicability of mobile apps to desktop apps 
and visa versa is not due to a lack of user need but a lack of imagination 
or capabilities of the app developers. who would not like to capture ideas 
for their book on their phone then write a chapter on their desktop or 
tablet?

If you design a good app, and sell it for a few dollars, if that is popular 
you can start a business. For get the swamp, make a mangrove tree.

It is also the period in time where businesses not only need a website but 
need an app or they do not exist in many peoples mind. Similarly people 
"understand" apps now they are learning what to ask for in an app, and even 
bespoke needs can be catered for. Far too often an app solution is hidden 
in indecipherable code so if you commission one you have to return to the 
original developer or get a new one, TiddlyWiki allows them not to trust 
the developer, because they can resort to open source code fixes, curiously 
they trust developers more who offer them this flexibility.

If you do not know what is behind the PWA or Progressive Web App I urge you 
to find out. It is possibly the most important recent trend and defines 
what people will expect.

If you ask me TiddlyWiki was born to succeed in this.


*Progressive web applications (PWAs) 
 are a type 
of mobile app  delivered through 
the web, built using common web technologies including HTML 
, CSS 
 and JavaScript 
. They are intended to work on 
any platform that uses a standards-compliant browser. Functionality 
includes working offline, push notifications 
, and device hardware 
access, enabling creating user experiences similar to native applications 
on mobile devices. Since they are a type of webpage 
 or website 
 known as a web application 
, there is no requirement 
for developers or users to install the web apps via digital distribution 
systems like Apple App Store 
 or Google Play 
.*


*While web applications have been available for mobile devices for as long 
as mobile devices have existed, they had generally lagged behind native 
apps in terms of speed, features, and user adoption, especially on mobile 
devices. Direct access to hardware and the ability to work offline, 
previously only available to native apps, allows PWAs to perform much 
faster and to provide more features in line with native apps.*


*PWAs do not require separate bundling or distribution. Publication of a 
progressive web app is as it would be for any other web page. PWAs work in 
any browser, but "app-like" features such as being independent of 
connectivity, install to home screen and push messaging depend on browser 
support. As of April 2018, those features are supported to varying degrees 
by the Microsoft Edge 
, Google Chrome 
, Mozilla Firefox 
 and Apple Safari 
 browsers, but more 
browsers may support the features needed in the future.[1] 
[2]
 
*

Regards
Tony


On Saturday, July 6, 2019 at 5:19:44 AM UTC+10, @TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>
> Mark S. wrote:
>
>> ... I can imagine a wrapper kit for Android that would allow any 
>> mobile-themed TW to be turned into an application. 
>> The problem is, there are just so many apps already. 
>>
>
> I got to thinking about "Quinoid". Its an example of "enabling software." 
> A wrapper for TW that can give added functions and could potentially be 
> expanded
>
> Its, I think, a good example of 

[tw5] Re: Creating and Selling Software Tools based on Tiddlywiki

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Mark S. wrote:

> ... I can imagine a wrapper kit for Android that would allow any 
> mobile-themed TW to be turned into an application. 
> The problem is, there are just so many apps already. 
>

I got to thinking about "Quinoid". Its an example of "enabling software." A 
wrapper for TW that can give added functions and could potentially be 
expanded

Its, I think, a good example of where the money may be. 

FWIW, one of the most profitable businesses in the mobile phone sector are 
the companies who manufacture the boxes for phones.

I'm NOT suggesting Quidoid is that, But its an example of you "need a 
wrapper" for best presentation. You need Quidoid + the App(s). That's a 
product.

Thoughst
Josiah

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[tw5] Re: Creating and Selling Software Tools based on Tiddlywiki

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Mat wrote:
>
> Announcing TiddlyWiki365! It features: an editor for tiddlers, it can 
> calculate a number, it can present one tiddler after the other.
>
> This will revolutionize the corporate world!
>

I take that with a pinch of salt :-) 

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[tw5] Re: Creating and Selling Software Tools based on Tiddlywiki

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Mark S. wrote:
>
> ... I can imagine a wrapper kit for Android that would allow any 
> mobile-themed TW to be turned into an application. 
>
The problem is, there are just so many apps already. 
>

I think that astute. 

Its true Android is a swamp of apps. But TW is particularly strong on 
flexibility of function. And Android users are not looking for bells and 
whistles, but much narrower functions than weighty desktop software, I 
think. 

I suspect in the hands of someone who understands Android usage turning out 
TW's with simple functions could work well.

Anyway, as far as "shrink-wrapped" goes, Android looks like a possible 
market, despite competition. 

But its a "penny economy". Your app needs thousands of users to afford to 
maintain it.

Best wishes
Josiah

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[tw5] Re: Creating and Selling Software Tools based on Tiddlywiki

[Jed Carty]

I made some tools to track expense reports and make invoices that can be nicely 
sorted and spit out weekly/monthly/yearly reports.

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[tw5] Re: Creating and Selling Software Tools based on Tiddlywiki

[passingby]

Something like data entry for small business, which can be export data to 
quickbooks might be an option. This might prove attractive to the small 
business owner/operator by saving monthly costs for bookkeeping. They can 
periodically export for emailing the file to their accountant.

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[tw5] Re: Creating and Selling Software Tools based on Tiddlywiki

[Mat]

Announcing TiddlyWiki365! It features: an editor for tiddlers, it can 
calculate a number, it can present one tiddler after the other.

This will revolutionize the corporate world!

<:-)

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[tw5] Re: Creating and Selling Software Tools based on Tiddlywiki

['Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki]

A vertical market application for the desktop is unlikely. But I can 
imagine a wrapper kit for Android that would allow any mobile-themed
TW to be turned into an application. The problem is, there are just so many 
apps already. 

But if some small family business wanted to make an a Menu app for their 
Falafel and Pizza shop, that might be the ticket.  

On Thursday, July 4, 2019 at 4:36:43 AM UTC-7, Mohammad wrote:
>
>
>1. Do you think Tiddlywiki is enough mature to create applications 
>(Apps) based on it for commercial use cases?
>2. Do you think it is possible to sell such applications  for 
>commercial use cases (not for academic or individuals)?
>
>
>
>

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[tw5] Re: Creating and Selling Software Tools based on Tiddlywiki

[passingby]

Hello Mohammed,

Disclaimer: I am not a programmer, and have no experience from real world 
pov. 
Maybe we need some advanced tools like:

1. An advanced plugin which will turn TW into a RAD environment for CRUD 
applications. Easily customization of forms for entering, editing data. 
Displaying data in tables, graphs, pie charts etc.
2. Easy integration of CSS and javascript libraries
3. Advanced SQL like capabilities for complex data situation in multi level 
parent child relationships.
4. easy Spreadsheet functions in tables.
5. Pagination
2. Better integration or connecting with other platforms out there such as 
social media.

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[tw5] Re: Creating and Selling Software Tools based on Tiddlywiki

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao TonyM

TonyM wrote:
>
> 1. ... however building a set of tools and practices to support rapid and 
> structured development is nessasary, it would also help to reduce 
> maintenance costs later.
>

I'm not sure about that in one way. And I think its worth saying.

What I mean, is you refer to the* tools *not the *person *making them for 
their purpose. 

TW is an animal that can live a thousand ways so my, feeling, maybe wrong, 
is that YOU (*the person*) have a vision, know it, and pursue it in the 
context of your practice. I think that is very healthy. 

But I'm a bit doubtful it will generalise because I'm not sure what a 
generic "structured development" for TW could be other than what it is 
already. Which is so open to possibles its a kinda endless mess of diverse 
intent. There is *nothing* wrong with that. 

But its bricolage, not Henry Ford.

In brief: commercial gains, I think, come from matching ones skills to 
markets for whom YOU develop structure.

Just thoughts
Josiah

>

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[tw5] Re: Creating and Selling Software Tools based on Tiddlywiki

[@TiddlyTweeter]

TonyM wrote:

>... There are great plusses to building solutions on open source ...


Absolutely true. 

If one looks at the real history of TW its been a back-n-forth fruitful 
confluence between commerce and open-source.

I doubt Jeremey could ever have done it otherwise. I mean, who'd pay for 
his work?

Best wishes
Josiah 

>

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[tw5] Re: Creating and Selling Software Tools based on Tiddlywiki

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Mohammad again ...

Its a very interesting topic.

I was trying to think out a very simple way of presenting the issue ...

   -  I do think its about *people*. 

Being able to identify and develop markets is *not *the same thing as being 
a good coder.

So maybe the question could be: What are the market needs where TW PLUS a 
good developer could solve real world problems?

Best wishes
Josiah

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[tw5] Re: Creating and Selling Software Tools based on Tiddlywiki

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Mohammad

Yes. Absolutely.

But the "product" on sale is not off-the-shelf software. Its a software 
framework that a developer sells and *develps into a context for a purpose*.

That is exactly what Jeremy did and does. 

*So in a way your question is misleading*, as if it were now "mature 
enough", as if it wasn't before. 

In fact, its commercial application and development (for instance for 
British Telecom in the past) has fed back and helped the develpment of the 
free version.

TBH, I don't think the issue is "maturity of product" at all. The maturity 
is well there. 

Its more normal commercial things like: What is my market? Who am I selling 
to whom for what? 

In other words *about people who would know how to leverage it for 
commercial aims*. Jeremy is one of them.

Best wishes
Josiah

On Thursday, 4 July 2019 13:36:43 UTC+2, Mohammad wrote:
>
>
>1. Do you think Tiddlywiki is enough mature to create applications 
>(Apps) based on it for commercial use cases?
>2. Do you think it is possible to sell such applications  for 
>commercial use cases (not for academic or individuals)?
>
>
>
>

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[tw5] Re: Creating and Selling Software Tools based on Tiddlywiki

[Mat]

Interesting question.

I'd guess "Yes" but then you'd have to come up with applications that are 
implementable with TW. My point is that modern applications are quite 
sophisticated in what they do (...multi user, login in via facebook 
account, "does it work with our intranet?", etc etc).

Of course, Jeremy does use TW as commercial applications (...as far as I 
know) but my guess - not based on anything - is that they're tweaked quite 
a bit to suit the customer. The only example I know of is the Ambit project 
(unsure of url for their tiddlywiki).

<:-)

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