Re: [time-nuts] Z3812 Diag port data? RE: time-nuts Digest, Vol 124, Issue 26
Bob It's possible that what you're seeing might well be normal operation when they're operating as a pair, since Ref-0, what we've been calling the slave because it has no GPS receiver, is actually the default master in operational terms. I only have Ref-1 units operating stand alone so perhaps someone else with an operational pair can confirm whether or not any routine communication exists with Ref-1 once the boot up sequence is finished? In particular, when you say you can't communicate are you referring to the J6 RS422/1PPS port, the J8 diagnostic port, or both? A good test might be to set up your Ref-1 to operate stand alone. Remove the interface cable and just fit two links to the Ref-1 J5 diagnostic connector, pin 2 to 8 and pin 3 to 13, and then power it up as normal. It won't be outputting 15MHz and 1 PPS until the fault light goes off and the on light is on, but you should be able to communicate with the J8 diagnostics port as soon as it's powered up. I've used SatStat and other HP series Z3xx compatible software and all worked fine, and that should continue after the boot up period ends and the outputs are enabled. I haven't so far tried the J6 RS422 port with the Lucent software as I've been more interested in the GPS side of things and didn't want to dig into the box itself before I've had time to study the RFTG-m manual re the software commands and better understand the implications. Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 03/11/2014 03:16:35 GMT Standard Time, b...@evoria.net writes: Hi Bob, I am only able to communicate with my system through the REF-0/slave unit. I had thought this was normal behavior till someone, you perhaps, posted that that was not correct. So, I've emailed Aecis to request a replacement REF-1. Bob From: Bob Camp kb...@n1k.org To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Sunday, November 2, 2014 8:20 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Z3812 Diag port data? RE: time-nuts Digest, Vol 124, Issue 26 HI So at least there is one way communications from the GPS box to the slave box. Bidirectional com would be a bit complex given the lack of UART’s on the pc board. I’d bet it just runs through a standard set of messages on the GPS and watches the results. The way to quickly prove I’m wrong would be to issue a command to the GPS from the slave that it must respond to. Something like go into survey mode or set the location to xxx yyy zzz. I’ve certainly been wrong before. I suppose they could do dual source TTL com directly at the GPS module level. I’d think that would drive the GPS unit a bit nuts when the slave started switching things around…. Bob On Nov 2, 2014, at 4:16 PM, n2lym n2...@optonline.net wrote: Yes the diagnostic port on the slave unit diaplay's gps data just like the Z3811. Therefore there must be serial data being exchanged on the 15 pin interconnect. Mike N2LYM Message: 5 Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2014 15:58:20 -0500 From: gandal...@aol.com To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812... Message-ID: 868c5.58494d20.4187f...@aol.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Just another thought though, does the diagnostic port on the slave also communicate with SatStat etc? That would imply at least a transfer of serial data in one direction, even if not for the control functions. Regards Nigel GM8PZR ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to htt ps://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Mercury Ion Clock
On 3 Nov 2014 02:59, Bert Kehren via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote: I respectfully disagree. Before getting totally submerged in time nuts issues I did extensive work on signal sources up to 40 GHz as a hobby. So I have since the early 90's sweeper, synthesizer, power meter, mixer for the HP 7 series, attenuates and most important frequency counter and non fall off the cliff at 40 GHz. 40.5 is still doable the limiting factor is wave guide cut off frequency. One of the reasons I still hold on to the 5345 frequency counter the best for high resolution frequency counting in that range. Yes it was not cheap but more and more equipment and components become available last year I helped a friend sell eight HP mixers for frequencies above 50 GHz. The big question is phase noise and how much power and no it will not be $ 200 but $ 2500 depending on power and phase noise.is attainable. Bert Kehren I doubt that you could assemble either a spectrum analyzer or signal generator at just over 40 GHz for $2500. A frequency counter one could easily do. I puchased a used 20 GHz sweeper in the UK last week for the US equivalent of $900. I think that was particularly cheap and probably helped by the fact that the seller had poor feedback and didn't do a good job of describing it. But that was only at 20 GHz. A US dealer, who is kindly going to give me a software code to enable a step size of 1 Hz, rather than 1 kHz said it was worth more than that in just parts. Waveguide modes should not be a problem if you use either the right size coax or waveguide. In coax that means using 2.4 mm connectors, as both SMA and 3.5 mm can't work at 40 GHz. But anything in 2.4 mm is going to be expensive. A simple female-female adapter is like to cost nearly $100. I just looked quickly on eBay and could not see any working 40 GHz signal or sweep generator for less than $15,000. Neither could I find a non working 40 GHz signal or sweep generator for $2500. As I wrote earlier, 40 GHz tends to be one of the frequencies that commercial gear stops at, so getting to 41 GHz is likely to be substantially more expensive than 40 GHz. There's now quite a bit of modestly Chinese test equipment up to a few GHz, but I don't see anything modestly priced at 40 GHz. So I don't think $2500 is likely to buy you a lab of 40 GHz test equipment. I am sure if one waits enough, one will find a cheaper unit on eBay, but I think that one is still going to be paying serious amounts of money. Dave ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lord Vetinari wall clock
Mike Baker mp...@clanbaker.org wrote: I have been tempted to build a (hacked) wall clock (after Lord Vetinari) that has an erratic second hand that sometimes skips ticks and sometimes ticks several times very rapidly but still keeps correct time. Sounds a bit like the Corpus Clock http://fanf.livejournal.com/98545.html Tony. -- f.anthony.n.finch d...@dotat.at http://dotat.at/ Trafalgar: Cyclonic in northwest, otherwise mainly northerly or northwesterly 5 or 6. Slight or moderate. Showers in northwest. Good. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Z3812 Diag port data? RE: time-nuts Digest, Vol 124, Issue 26
Hi Ok, on the slave you have, are you talking to the Diag (HP) port or to the RS-422 / PPS (Lucent) port? Bob On Nov 2, 2014, at 10:15 PM, Bob Stewart b...@evoria.net wrote: Hi Bob, I am only able to communicate with my system through the REF-0/slave unit. I had thought this was normal behavior till someone, you perhaps, posted that that was not correct. So, I've emailed Aecis to request a replacement REF-1. Bob From: Bob Camp kb...@n1k.org To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Sunday, November 2, 2014 8:20 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Z3812 Diag port data? RE: time-nuts Digest, Vol 124, Issue 26 HI So at least there is one way communications from the GPS box to the slave box. Bidirectional com would be a bit complex given the lack of UART’s on the pc board. I’d bet it just runs through a standard set of messages on the GPS and watches the results. The way to quickly prove I’m wrong would be to issue a command to the GPS from the slave that it must respond to. Something like go into survey mode or set the location to xxx yyy zzz. I’ve certainly been wrong before. I suppose they could do dual source TTL com directly at the GPS module level. I’d think that would drive the GPS unit a bit nuts when the slave started switching things around…. Bob On Nov 2, 2014, at 4:16 PM, n2lym n2...@optonline.net wrote: Yes the diagnostic port on the slave unit diaplay's gps data just like the Z3811. Therefore there must be serial data being exchanged on the 15 pin interconnect. Mike N2LYM Message: 5 Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2014 15:58:20 -0500 From: gandal...@aol.com To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812... Message-ID: 868c5.58494d20.4187f...@aol.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Just another thought though, does the diagnostic port on the slave also communicate with SatStat etc? That would imply at least a transfer of serial data in one direction, even if not for the control functions. Regards Nigel GM8PZR ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Z3812 Diag port data?
I found a reference to the Lucent documentation for the RFTG-u/KS-24361: 401-660-129 Base Station CDMA Reference Frequency Timing Generator (Universal) (RFTG-u) and GPS Antenna System Description, Operation, Installation, and Maintenance I haven't found the documentation itself, though it's probably available to registered users of the Alcatel-Lucent website. --Glen Hoag h...@hiwaay.net ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Z3812 Diag port data?
Hi That document would be a very nice thing to see. It might be 4 pages long or it might be 400 pages … Either way, worth digging for. Bob On Nov 3, 2014, at 7:17 AM, Glen Hoag h...@hiwaay.net wrote: I found a reference to the Lucent documentation for the RFTG-u/KS-24361: 401-660-129 Base Station CDMA Reference Frequency Timing Generator (Universal) (RFTG-u) and GPS Antenna System Description, Operation, Installation, and Maintenance I haven't found the documentation itself, though it's probably available to registered users of the Alcatel-Lucent website. --Glen Hoag h...@hiwaay.net ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Mercury Ion Clock
Do not want to get off list subject but again have to disagree. First I was not referring to $ 2500 spectrum analyzer but a single frequency source. As to equipment available some of the equipment on ebay is not visible to offshore buyers. It also helps to know your sellers and I am not talking actually have talked to them but understand their listing. Just checked my buys and on July 1st 2012 I bought a Wiltron 6740B 40 GHz excellent condition for $332 total cost. You could not have bid on it. All I am saying that 40.5 GHz should not be hindrance to pursue Mercury Ion there may be more challenging issues and if time nuts want to do something I may be able to furnish that source. Like I said before I commit I would have to better understand the requirements. Bert Kehren In a message dated 11/3/2014 5:09:08 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, drkir...@kirkbymicrowave.co.uk writes: On 3 Nov 2014 02:59, Bert Kehren via time-nuts _time-nuts@febo.com_ (mailto:time-nuts@febo.com) wrote: I respectfully disagree. Before getting totally submerged in time nuts issues I did extensive work on signal sources up to 40 GHz as a hobby. So I have since the early 90's sweeper, synthesizer, power meter, mixer for the HP 7 series, attenuates and most important frequency counter and non fall off the cliff at 40 GHz. 40.5 is still doable the limiting factor is wave guide cut off frequency. One of the reasons I still hold on to the 5345 frequency counter the best for high resolution frequency counting in that range. Yes it was not cheap but more and more equipment and components become available last year I helped a friend sell eight HP mixers for frequencies above 50 GHz. The big question is phase noise and how much power and no it will not be $ 200 but $ 2500 depending on power and phase _noise.is_ (http://noise.is/) attainable. Bert Kehren I doubt that you could assemble either a spectrum analyzer or signal generator at just over 40 GHz for $2500. A frequency counter one could easily do. I puchased a used 20 GHz sweeper in the UK last week for the US equivalent of $900. I think that was particularly cheap and probably helped by the fact that the seller had poor feedback and didn't do a good job of describing it. But that was only at 20 GHz. A US dealer, who is kindly going to give me a software code to enable a step size of 1 Hz, rather than 1 kHz said it was worth more than that in just parts. Waveguide modes should not be a problem if you use either the right size coax or waveguide. In coax that means using 2.4 mm connectors, as both SMA and 3.5 mm can't work at 40 GHz. But anything in 2.4 mm is going to be expensive. A simple female-female adapter is like to cost nearly $100. I just looked quickly on eBay and could not see any working 40 GHz signal or sweep generator for less than $15,000. Neither could I find a non working 40 GHz signal or sweep generator for $2500. As I wrote earlier, 40 GHz tends to be one of the frequencies that commercial gear stops at, so getting to 41 GHz is likely to be substantially more expensive than 40 GHz. There's now quite a bit of modestly Chinese test equipment up to a few GHz, but I don't see anything modestly priced at 40 GHz. So I don't think $2500 is likely to buy you a lab of 40 GHz test equipment. I am sure if one waits enough, one will find a cheaper unit on eBay, but I think that one is still going to be paying serious amounts of money. Dave ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
Z3811A ON LED flashing.problem solved! If only it was always this easy:-) It turns out this is what happens if you switch the Output Level from 17 to 23, obviously an advisory indication to draw attention to the higher output. Switching it back reduces the level, as expected, and returns the LED function to normal. Phew:-) I can't remember switching it but don't suppose it arrived like that so guess I must have done. Regards Nigel GM8PZR ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] NPR Story I heard this morning
This morning, as I was driving to work, I heard this really cool story on NPR radio here in NYC. This is the link to the story: http://www.npr.org/2014/11/03/361069820/what-time-is-it-it-depends-where-you-are-in-the-universe What a nice way to start the week. Past stories with similar headlines. http://www.npr.org/2014/01/24/265247930/tickety-tock-an-even-more-accurate-atomic-clock Cheers, George Hrysanthopoulos, N2FGX ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 10MHz Rubidium reference source for frequency counter
Hi, yes, it is my fault - my set up (connections) for TI mode was not correct. According your advices I went back to the frequency mode and set gate / sample time to 1 second for CNT-91 and TimeLab. Then I switched on Smart Frequency and Interpolator Calibration option on CNT-91 1. Setting - Misc - Smart Meas - Smart Frequency - ON Smart Frequency (valid only if the selected measurement function is Frequency or Period Average). By means of continuous timestamping and regression analysis, the resolution is increased for measuring times between 0.2 s and 100 s. 2. Setting - Misc - Smart Meas - Interp Calib ON Interpolatator Calibration - By switching off the interpolator calibration, you can increase the measurement speed at the expense of accuracy. Please see the result with and without these CNT-91's options (Smart Frequency and Interpolator Calibration) https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21338179/hamradio/OCXO_Adev/morion%20ocxo%20adev%20freq%20mode%20smartfreq%20sample_1s%20interpcalib_on.jpg . This result is for the internal CNT-91 reference source. I will check with external reference second Morion OCXO shortly. Thanks, Karen ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP5334 parport linux tool
VERY HELPFUL. I just picked up this counter and have done a lot of time just staring at that D shell connector with a slight tinge of despondence. NS On Sun, Nov 2, 2014 at 6:54 PM, Tom Wimmenhove tom.wimmenh...@gmail.com wrote: I just recently got myself a HP 5334B universal counter and wanted to communicate with it using my PC. I don't have any GPIB hardware but I found GLExPIB (https://code.google.com/p/glexpib/source/checkout) that uses a standard parport. I hacked and modified the library slightly and wrote a simple interactive command line tool to communicate with the counter. It's a simple command line tool that has an interactive mode to send commands and receive measurements. It also includes a wiring diagram for the (passive) cable drawn by the author of GLExPIB. I thought I might share this with you guys because I'm sure there are people on this list that have the same counter. (It might work with general GPIB equipment, but I have no way to test it). Download link: http://www.tomwimmenhove.com/otherstuff/ ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Z3812 Diag port data? RE: time-nuts Digest, Vol 124, Issue 26
Hi Bob, Talking on J8-Diagnostic port. All I see on the RS-422 port is a timestamp. Bob From: Bob Camp kb...@n1k.org To: Bob Stewart b...@evoria.net; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Monday, November 3, 2014 6:17 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Z3812 Diag port data? RE: time-nuts Digest, Vol 124, Issue 26 Hi Ok, on the slave you have, are you talking to the Diag (HP) port or to the RS-422 / PPS (Lucent) port? Bob On Nov 2, 2014, at 10:15 PM, Bob Stewart b...@evoria.net wrote: Hi Bob, I am only able to communicate with my system through the REF-0/slave unit. I had thought this was normal behavior till someone, you perhaps, posted that that was not correct. So, I've emailed Aecis to request a replacement REF-1. Bob From: Bob Camp kb...@n1k.org To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Sunday, November 2, 2014 8:20 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Z3812 Diag port data? RE: time-nuts Digest, Vol 124, Issue 26 HI So at least there is one way communications from the GPS box to the slave box. Bidirectional com would be a bit complex given the lack of UART’s on the pc board. I’d bet it just runs through a standard set of messages on the GPS and watches the results. The way to quickly prove I’m wrong would be to issue a command to the GPS from the slave that it must respond to. Something like go into survey mode or set the location to xxx yyy zzz. I’ve certainly been wrong before. I suppose they could do dual source TTL com directly at the GPS module level. I’d think that would drive the GPS unit a bit nuts when the slave started switching things around…. Bob On Nov 2, 2014, at 4:16 PM, n2lym n2...@optonline.net wrote: Yes the diagnostic port on the slave unit diaplay's gps data just like the Z3811. Therefore there must be serial data being exchanged on the 15 pin interconnect. Mike N2LYM Message: 5 Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2014 15:58:20 -0500 From: gandal...@aol.com To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812... Message-ID: 868c5.58494d20.4187f...@aol.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Just another thought though, does the diagnostic port on the slave also communicate with SatStat etc? That would imply at least a transfer of serial data in one direction, even if not for the control functions. Regards Nigel GM8PZR ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Mercury Ion Clock
On 3 November 2014 12:58, Bert Kehren via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote: Do not want to get off list subject but again have to disagree. Lets's leave it there. Just checked my buys and on July 1st 2012 I bought a Wiltron 6740B 40 GHz excellent condition for $332 total cost. That was good. You could not have bid on it. Well if it was on eBay, there are ways around the fact I am not in the USA - a member of this list has helped me out on that. But of course if it was at some place else, quite possibly so. Good luck to anyone making such a standard. Dave ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, diag ports
Regarding comms through the diag ports on the two units, I was using this post by Stewart Cobb as my reference to what works and what does not. Bob From: Stewart Cobb stewart.c...@gmail.com To: time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Sunday, November 2, 2014 3:42 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812A GPSDO system I have now tested 3 pairs of these units (full Z3810AS system), always in pairs. One Z3811 box was DOA. It drew power at the appropriate level, but the lights did not light up and there was no response on the SatStat port. AECI quickly swapped it for a working unit, and even paid return shipping for the dud. Can't complain about the service. One pair was built in the US in approximately March 1999; it has serial numbers in the old HP style: 3844A41xxx. The others were built later, in Korea, and have new-style serial numbers like KR92840xxx. They all seem to have the same software. My lab uses a dual USB-to-serial converter to talk to both boxes at once. This does not use FTDI chips. One side seems to talk perfectly both ways through the RS-422 hack wiring; the other side seems to receive perfectly but the GPSDO complains about erroneous commands about once or twice an hour. If anyone wants to duplicate my setup, the converter comes from Microconnectors and can be found here: http://www.amazon.com/Micro-Connectors-Serial-Adapter-E07-162/dp/B0032325LE (Link provided for information only; I have no connection with any of these people.) It is NOT TRUE that only the box with the green light on will talk over its diagnostic port. Both boxes can be interrogated simultaneously with SatStat, starting immediately after power-up. The J8 diagnostic ports on both units speak only when spoken to. If you're using a scope to look for activity on the diagnostic port, you won't see any unless a PC is connected. If you're switching one serial cable back and forth between two boxes, be sure to close the port (menu CommPort/PortOpen unchecked) before removing the cable from the first box, and open the port again (menu CommPort/PortOpen checked) after connecting the cable to the second box. The PortOpen command seems to do more than merely opening the serial port; it seems to be necessary to get communications going with the box. If you watch the window title, you can see that it's sending a *IDN? command and interpreting the results, but it may be doing other things as well. On the Z3812A, the front panel 10 MHz test point J1 connects to a group of three 100-ohm SMT (0805?) resistors and one SMT (0805 again?) ceramic capacitor. These are next to U206, a 74ACT14 in a SO-14 package, on the bottom of the board behind J6. On the Z3811A, these three resistors and one capacitor are missing. It is quite probable that adding them would send a 10 MHz signal to the SMA jack footprint buried under the GPS antenna input TNC jack. One could presumably solder a small coax cable to that footprint and route it around to a convenient location on the front panel. (The capacitor is not marked with a value, but it's probably small. It connects from the 10 MHz output to ground, and its purpose is probably just to slow down the edge rates of the 10 MHz output to reduce EMI.) The 10 MHz output seems to have a duty cycle of about 55% high / 45% low. This may be related to the synthesis technique, or it may simply be due to asymmetrical thresholds in the 74ACT14 schmitt-trigger driver. The firmware in the Z3811 and Z3812 boxes appears to be exactly the same. The PCBs are stuffed slightly differently, and of course the Z3812 has no GPS receiver. It is possible that one could add a GPS receiver speaking the correct protocol to a Z3812, and turn it into a GPSDO. It would be necessary to find out how the firmware detects what sort of box it is. Perhaps it simply looks for a GPS receiver, or perhaps there is a pullup resistor somewhere on the board that is only stuffed on one version of the box. The GPS receivers in these boxes use fairly old technology. In particular, they can only track 8 channels at a time, and they cannot make use of the WAAS signals. WAAS transmits corrections for satellite ephemeris errors and for the changing ionosphere. These are two of the most prominent error sources for GPS timing. (The others are antenna position error and multipath, both of which are potentially under the control of the user, and troposphere delay, which is small but can't easily be measured or removed.) It is theoretically possible to build a plug-compatible board carrying a modern GPS timing receiver and a small microcontroller to translate its communications into Motorola Oncore language. With a well-sited antenna, such a system might display noticeably improved performance. The current GPS receivers in these boxes take a remarkably long time to settle down after power-up. The GPS satellites transmit their full almanac every 12.5 minutes, which is
Re: [time-nuts] Z3812 Diag port data?
Yes indeed you need a login. Will attempt later. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Mon, Nov 3, 2014 at 7:22 AM, Bob Camp kb...@n1k.org wrote: Hi That document would be a very nice thing to see. It might be 4 pages long or it might be 400 pages … Either way, worth digging for. Bob On Nov 3, 2014, at 7:17 AM, Glen Hoag h...@hiwaay.net wrote: I found a reference to the Lucent documentation for the RFTG-u/KS-24361: 401-660-129 Base Station CDMA Reference Frequency Timing Generator (Universal) (RFTG-u) and GPS Antenna System Description, Operation, Installation, and Maintenance I haven't found the documentation itself, though it's probably available to registered users of the Alcatel-Lucent website. --Glen Hoag h...@hiwaay.net ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Z3812 Diag port data?
Attempted to get access. No go. On Mon, Nov 3, 2014 at 10:02 AM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: Yes indeed you need a login. Will attempt later. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Mon, Nov 3, 2014 at 7:22 AM, Bob Camp kb...@n1k.org wrote: Hi That document would be a very nice thing to see. It might be 4 pages long or it might be 400 pages … Either way, worth digging for. Bob On Nov 3, 2014, at 7:17 AM, Glen Hoag h...@hiwaay.net wrote: I found a reference to the Lucent documentation for the RFTG-u/KS-24361: 401-660-129 Base Station CDMA Reference Frequency Timing Generator (Universal) (RFTG-u) and GPS Antenna System Description, Operation, Installation, and Maintenance I haven't found the documentation itself, though it's probably available to registered users of the Alcatel-Lucent website. --Glen Hoag h...@hiwaay.net ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, diag ports
Hi, It's possible that my REF-1 had a software fault. I power-cycled both units, and now I can talk to both. However, I see that there is at least one difference. During the survey period, REF-0 mode only says SURVEY. REF-1 gives the percentage complete as shown on page 1-10 in the Z3801 users guide. So, now I don't know whether or not to trust REF-1. They have just let me know they are shipping the replacement, so this is all going to work out somehow. Bob ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] NPR Story I heard this morning
Yes, A story about time and frequency standards. They actually used numbers like 10E16 in the story. Apparently at that level your clock can measure a change in elevation of a few centimeters because of the relativistic effects of the reduced gravity field in just a few cm. On Mon, Nov 3, 2014 at 6:28 AM, xaos x...@darksmile.net wrote: This morning, as I was driving to work, I heard this really cool story on NPR radio here in NYC. This is the link to the story: http://www.npr.org/2014/11/03/361069820/what-time-is-it-it-depends-where-you-are-in-the-universe What a nice way to start the week. Past stories with similar headlines. http://www.npr.org/2014/01/24/265247930/tickety-tock-an-even-more-accurate-atomic-clock Cheers, George Hrysanthopoulos, N2FGX ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Hydrogen Maser KIT! Update #1
Coating the bulb with Teflon involves coating the inside with a Teflon liquid aqueous dispersion, letting it dry, and then curing it in an oven at 380 to 400 degrees C for around 30 minutes while circulating dry air through the bulb. A little bit intricate but doable. Main concern is getting the bulb surface absolutely clean before coating. A hydrofluoric acid rinse is a must! Cheers, Corby ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Hydrogen Maser KIT! Update #1
I guess I have to wonder why Corby felt it necessary to remove the coating. I think it was always motley looking. And, If it was very easy to remove, and I suspect it would be, it is probably equally easy to apply. -Chuck Harris Bob Camp wrote: Hi On Nov 2, 2014, at 9:49 PM, Chuck Harris cfhar...@erols.com wrote: In retrospect, it looks like their teflon coating is even simpler done. It looks like what they did is take very finely sectioned teflon powder, and make a slurry in probably acetone. They cleaned the vessel very well first with acetone and second, probably a little distilled water to etch the glass slightly, and then put the teflon/acetone slurry in the bulb, slooshed it around a bit to cover the walls, and then drained it all out. When the acetone evaporated, the teflon powder would remain on the walls. If it’s that simple, then going crazy over the coating as I was suggesting isn’t really needed. Bob ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Hydrogen Maser KIT! Update #1
Good god, be core full with that. Did you find any references to sputtering the coating. I would think this would give you a more even and more adhesive coating. Some chemical engineering labs at universities do that and would probably coat it for free. I know Dr. Viljoen at Nebraska-Lincoln has a setup for that. He usually sputters metal but I think a Teflon target would work the same. Sent from mobile On Nov 3, 2014, at 10:09 AM, cdel...@juno.com cdel...@juno.com wrote: Coating the bulb with Teflon involves coating the inside with a Teflon liquid aqueous dispersion, letting it dry, and then curing it in an oven at 380 to 400 degrees C for around 30 minutes while circulating dry air through the bulb. A little bit intricate but doable. Main concern is getting the bulb surface absolutely clean before coating. A hydrofluoric acid rinse is a must! Cheers, Corby ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] NPR Story I heard this morning
Small correction: The numbers were 10E-16. One important concept that was discussed was this: If the next generation clock was even more accurate (maybe by an order or two), then no two clocks can ever agree on the time. Minute changes in gravity and other factors will always make each clock completely different. So, to that I said: WOW! Wait just a damn minute. I got into this so I can tell time precisely. Now I'm back to to the beginning. I know I am exaggerating a bit here but still. -GKH On 11/03/2014 11:09 AM, Chris Albertson wrote: Yes, A story about time and frequency standards. They actually used numbers like 10E16 in the story. Apparently at that level your clock can measure a change in elevation of a few centimeters because of the relativistic effects of the reduced gravity field in just a few cm. On Mon, Nov 3, 2014 at 6:28 AM, xaos x...@darksmile.net wrote: This morning, as I was driving to work, I heard this really cool story on NPR radio here in NYC. This is the link to the story: http://www.npr.org/2014/11/03/361069820/what-time-is-it-it-depends-where-you-are-in-the-universe What a nice way to start the week. Past stories with similar headlines. http://www.npr.org/2014/01/24/265247930/tickety-tock-an-even-more-accurate-atomic-clock Cheers, George Hrysanthopoulos, N2FGX ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] NPR Story I heard this morning
Have you read Tom's story about his family trip up Mount Ranier with a Cesium clock? Project GREAT: General Relativity Einstein/Essen Anniversary Test Bob From: xaos x...@darksmile.net To: time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Monday, November 3, 2014 10:17 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] NPR Story I heard this morning Small correction: The numbers were 10E-16. One important concept that was discussed was this: If the next generation clock was even more accurate (maybe by an order or two), then no two clocks can ever agree on the time. Minute changes in gravity and other factors will always make each clock completely different. So, to that I said: WOW! Wait just a damn minute. I got into this so I can tell time precisely. Now I'm back to to the beginning. I know I am exaggerating a bit here but still. -GKH ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Hydrogen Maser KIT! Update #1
Our standard cleaning regimen for glass (as I recall from when I was in gradual school), was: 1) wash in detergent in hot water 2) dip (not soak!) in 10% HF/distilled water solution 3) neutralize in dilute NaOH (KOH) water solution 4) rinse in distilled water And for a final clean: 1) scrub with detergent in hot water 2) rinse in very hot water 3) rinse with distilled water 4) rinse with pure methanol Aqueous and teflon don't seem to go together in my mind. I think my first choice would be vacuum deposition, which is very easy. Second choice would be acetone and teflon dispersion followed by a 200C high vacuum bake. I have a strong feeling that simply spraying from a can of teflon dry lubricant followed by a 200C high vacuum bake would work just as well. It seems to be a hexane/butane dispersion of teflon powder, and nothing else. -Chuck Harris cdel...@juno.com wrote: Coating the bulb with Teflon involves coating the inside with a Teflon liquid aqueous dispersion, letting it dry, and then curing it in an oven at 380 to 400 degrees C for around 30 minutes while circulating dry air through the bulb. A little bit intricate but doable. Main concern is getting the bulb surface absolutely clean before coating. A hydrofluoric acid rinse is a must! Cheers, Corby ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] NPR Story I heard this morning
You know, I was thinking that exact same thing as the story went on. The one (important) thing I got from Tom's story was that kids might like the idea of the trip, but the details might seem boring. Although, I'm sure, Tom had a blast. I was planning a similar trip from Astoria Queens, NYC which is sea level, to Adirondack Mountains, upstate New York. Never found enough friends to make it tho :( -GKH On 11/03/2014 11:40 AM, Bob Stewart wrote: Have you read Tom's story about his family trip up Mount Ranier with a Cesium clock? Project GREAT: General Relativity Einstein/Essen Anniversary Test Bob From: xaos x...@darksmile.net To: time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Monday, November 3, 2014 10:17 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] NPR Story I heard this morning Small correction: The numbers were 10E-16. One important concept that was discussed was this: If the next generation clock was even more accurate (maybe by an order or two), then no two clocks can ever agree on the time. Minute changes in gravity and other factors will always make each clock completely different. So, to that I said: WOW! Wait just a damn minute. I got into this so I can tell time precisely. Now I'm back to to the beginning. I know I am exaggerating a bit here but still. -GKH ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP5334 parport linux tool
Soldering cables is always annoying, just make sure you don't accidentally wire it in mirror image like I first did :) The parport's specs don't comply with GPIB, but it works (atleast for one device, when you connect more than one, you'll likely run in to trouble) On Mon, Nov 3, 2014 at 12:07 AM, Neil Schroeder gign...@gmail.com wrote: VERY HELPFUL. I just picked up this counter and have done a lot of time just staring at that D shell connector with a slight tinge of despondence. NS On Sun, Nov 2, 2014 at 6:54 PM, Tom Wimmenhove tom.wimmenh...@gmail.com wrote: I just recently got myself a HP 5334B universal counter and wanted to communicate with it using my PC. I don't have any GPIB hardware but I found GLExPIB (https://code.google.com/p/glexpib/source/checkout) that uses a standard parport. I hacked and modified the library slightly and wrote a simple interactive command line tool to communicate with the counter. It's a simple command line tool that has an interactive mode to send commands and receive measurements. It also includes a wiring diagram for the (passive) cable drawn by the author of GLExPIB. I thought I might share this with you guys because I'm sure there are people on this list that have the same counter. (It might work with general GPIB equipment, but I have no way to test it). Download link: http://www.tomwimmenhove.com/otherstuff/ ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
GandalfG8 at aol.com GandalfG8 at aol.com Sun Nov 2 09:08:30 EST 2014 wrote: Ooh err, whoops, and oh dear !! Arthur, I've only just had a chance to look at your latest photos, and unless I've really got my wires crossed, if you'll pardon the expression:-), your links on J5 are not shown on pins 2, 10, 12, and 15, but on pins 4, 6, 11, and 13. + Darn-I'm glad someone was paying more attention than I was when I wrote that years ago. Apparently when I was documenting what modifications I had made I just picked up a 15 pin D plug shell to get the numbers instead of looking at the obvious numbers on the RFTG socket connector and those connectors being mirror images have the numbers reversed. I was out geocaching yesterday and didn't catch up on the new posts until this morning so I'm a little late in responding. I also checked to see if I had any other scribbles on the changes I made and found this: If pin 2 is held low the 'ON' LED will flash. A pulse low will turn it on. The RC timer holds pin 2 low to flash for about 6 seconds so you can see it actually happens then pin 2 returns high and the 'ON' LED stays on solid. So apparently some of the parts I added were to just make the light look like they were working correctly (can you spell OCD?) and may not be necessary. As I originally said, this was a hack and I wanted others to duplicate what I had done to see if any of it made sense to them. At least it appears that by adding the circuit I came up with and/or adding jumpers you can get the RFTG-u REF 1 unit to work without the slave unit. I just ordered another RFTG-u REF 1 and will see if I can modify that and get it to output 10Mhz instead of 5Mhz like my original unit. Sorry about the screw up on the numbers. -Arthur ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
It turns out this is what happens if you switch the Output Level from 17 to 23, obviously an advisory indication to draw attention to the higher output. Switching it back reduces the level, as expected, and returns the LED function to normal. Phew:-) I can't remember switching it but don't suppose it arrived like that so guess I must have done. My pair came with Ref-0 set at 17 and Ref-1 at 23. -- These are my opinions. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
Hi Arthur Thanks for your further comments, and certainly no need for the sorry. It was your pioneering work that inspired recent efforts to start with, and the confusion over the pin numbers that led Gotz to the, just grounding pins 2 and 3, 2 link solution we have now. Overall, I'd say, not a bad result:-) Good luck with the 10 MHz conversion, I'll probably do that soon as well, after bringing out the 5 Mhz, but for now I'm just letting them cook whilst monitoring the 15MHz. As has been previously commented, aside from the GPS module, there seems to be very little difference between the Ref-0 and Ref-1 modules, and I'm quite tempted to make up my own patch lead, whip out the GPS module from one of my Ref-1 units, and then couple the two Ref-1s together to see how they cope with that:-) Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 03/11/2014 17:13:15 GMT Standard Time, golgarfrinc...@gmail.com writes: GandalfG8 at aol.com GandalfG8 at aol.com Sun Nov 2 09:08:30 EST 2014 wrote: Ooh err, whoops, and oh dear !! Arthur, I've only just had a chance to look at your latest photos, and unless I've really got my wires crossed, if you'll pardon the expression:-), your links on J5 are not shown on pins 2, 10, 12, and 15, but on pins 4, 6, 11, and 13. + Darn-I'm glad someone was paying more attention than I was when I wrote that years ago. Apparently when I was documenting what modifications I had made I just picked up a 15 pin D plug shell to get the numbers instead of looking at the obvious numbers on the RFTG socket connector and those connectors being mirror images have the numbers reversed. I was out geocaching yesterday and didn't catch up on the new posts until this morning so I'm a little late in responding. I also checked to see if I had any other scribbles on the changes I made and found this: If pin 2 is held low the 'ON' LED will flash. A pulse low will turn it on. The RC timer holds pin 2 low to flash for about 6 seconds so you can see it actually happens then pin 2 returns high and the 'ON' LED stays on solid. So apparently some of the parts I added were to just make the light look like they were working correctly (can you spell OCD?) and may not be necessary. As I originally said, this was a hack and I wanted others to duplicate what I had done to see if any of it made sense to them. At least it appears that by adding the circuit I came up with and/or adding jumpers you can get the RFTG-u REF 1 unit to work without the slave unit. I just ordered another RFTG-u REF 1 and will see if I can modify that and get it to output 10Mhz instead of 5Mhz like my original unit. Sorry about the screw up on the numbers. -Arthur ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] NPR Story I heard this morning
On Mon, Nov 3, 2014 at 8:17 AM, xaos x...@darksmile.net wrote: Small correction: The numbers were 10E-16. No I think it was one part in 10E16 ;) But the interesting thing was they used numbers rather then saying something like really super ultra tiny. But you are right, no two clocks will ever agree at that level because they will experience different gravitational fields. At this level the reason to have a clock is no longer to tell time. It is to measure the gravitational field. With an array of many clocks like these we might be able to map the density of the interior of the earth or detect black holes or who knows what. I think it opens up a new area of observation. When ever this happens we discover things we never would have thought of. Maybe in 40 years these Strontium oscillators will be mass produced for $2 each. Does anyone know how much g changes per cm of altitude? I'm to lazy to figure it out. One important concept that was discussed was this: If the next generation clock was even more accurate (maybe by an order or two), then no two clocks can ever agree on the time. Minute changes in gravity and other factors will always make each clock completely different. So, to that I said: WOW! Wait just a damn minute. I got into this so I can tell time precisely. Now I'm back to to the beginning. I know I am exaggerating a bit here but still. -GKH On 11/03/2014 11:09 AM, Chris Albertson wrote: Yes, A story about time and frequency standards. They actually used numbers like 10E16 in the story. Apparently at that level your clock can measure a change in elevation of a few centimeters because of the relativistic effects of the reduced gravity field in just a few cm. On Mon, Nov 3, 2014 at 6:28 AM, xaos x...@darksmile.net wrote: This morning, as I was driving to work, I heard this really cool story on NPR radio here in NYC. This is the link to the story: http://www.npr.org/2014/11/03/361069820/what-time-is-it-it-depends-where-you-are-in-the-universe What a nice way to start the week. Past stories with similar headlines. http://www.npr.org/2014/01/24/265247930/tickety-tock-an-even-more-accurate-atomic-clock Cheers, George Hrysanthopoulos, N2FGX ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] NPR Story I heard this morning
x...@darksmile.net said: I was planning a similar trip from Astoria Queens, NYC which is sea level, to Adirondack Mountains, upstate New York. You will need clocks that are better than Tom's. :) He parked at 5,000 feet. Do any roads go that high in the Adirondacks? How high can you park? What's the efficiency of the generator in a parked car compared to a portable generator? What's the right unit? kilo-watt-hours per gallon? How does a normal car compare to a hybrid? -- These are my opinions. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] NPR Story I heard this morning
In a normal car, bring a generator. Using a big 6 cyl. engine to drive a tiny 20 amp alternator is not so good. And that alternator is not designed to run 24x7 at full load.The Prius is on the other hand a very good generator and with some add on equipment can power your house. The Prius engine turns itself on and off to keep the large battery charged to you can take out lots of power with the engine off. So the engine never runs at an inefficient speed. Normal cars are very poor at this because the engine must run full time. On Mon, Nov 3, 2014 at 10:02 AM, Hal Murray hmur...@megapathdsl.net wrote: x...@darksmile.net said: I was planning a similar trip from Astoria Queens, NYC which is sea level, to Adirondack Mountains, upstate New York. You will need clocks that are better than Tom's. :) He parked at 5,000 feet. Do any roads go that high in the Adirondacks? How high can you park? What's the efficiency of the generator in a parked car compared to a portable generator? What's the right unit? kilo-watt-hours per gallon? How does a normal car compare to a hybrid? -- These are my opinions. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] NPR Story I heard this morning
albertson.ch...@gmail.com said: But you are right, no two clocks will ever agree at that level because they will experience different gravitational fields. What if I adjust the elevation (aka gravity) of one of them until it matches? Or at least gets within the resolution and ADEV of the pair? Suppose you had two super-accurate clocks that were next to each other. Would they phase lock? -- These are my opinions. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z381...
Ah, that's interesting, perhaps it wasn't me after all then. Did you have the same flashing ON light symptoms? Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 03/11/2014 17:56:56 GMT Standard Time, hmur...@megapathdsl.net writes: It turns out this is what happens if you switch the Output Level from 17 to 23, obviously an advisory indication to draw attention to the higher output. Switching it back reduces the level, as expected, and returns the LED function to normal. Phew:-) I can't remember switching it but don't suppose it arrived like that so guess I must have done. My pair came with Ref-0 set at 17 and Ref-1 at 23. -- These are my opinions. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] NPR Story I heard this morning
Why Strontium over Caesium? Is it because it just sounds more hi-tech ? LOL Maybe stupid question to most here, but I do not know the answer. -GKH On 11/03/2014 12:59 PM, Chris Albertson wrote: On Mon, Nov 3, 2014 at 8:17 AM, xaos x...@darksmile.net wrote: Small correction: The numbers were 10E-16. No I think it was one part in 10E16 ;) But the interesting thing was they used numbers rather then saying something like really super ultra tiny. But you are right, no two clocks will ever agree at that level because they will experience different gravitational fields. At this level the reason to have a clock is no longer to tell time. It is to measure the gravitational field. With an array of many clocks like these we might be able to map the density of the interior of the earth or detect black holes or who knows what. I think it opens up a new area of observation. When ever this happens we discover things we never would have thought of. Maybe in 40 years these Strontium oscillators will be mass produced for $2 each. Does anyone know how much g changes per cm of altitude? I'm to lazy to figure it out. One important concept that was discussed was this: If the next generation clock was even more accurate (maybe by an order or two), then no two clocks can ever agree on the time. Minute changes in gravity and other factors will always make each clock completely different. So, to that I said: WOW! Wait just a damn minute. I got into this so I can tell time precisely. Now I'm back to to the beginning. I know I am exaggerating a bit here but still. -GKH On 11/03/2014 11:09 AM, Chris Albertson wrote: Yes, A story about time and frequency standards. They actually used numbers like 10E16 in the story. Apparently at that level your clock can measure a change in elevation of a few centimeters because of the relativistic effects of the reduced gravity field in just a few cm. On Mon, Nov 3, 2014 at 6:28 AM, xaos x...@darksmile.net wrote: This morning, as I was driving to work, I heard this really cool story on NPR radio here in NYC. This is the link to the story: http://www.npr.org/2014/11/03/361069820/what-time-is-it-it-depends-where-you-are-in-the-universe What a nice way to start the week. Past stories with similar headlines. http://www.npr.org/2014/01/24/265247930/tickety-tock-an-even-more-accurate-atomic-clock Cheers, George Hrysanthopoulos, N2FGX ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Hydrogen Maser KIT! Update #1
On Mon, 03 Nov 2014 00:39:24 +0100 Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org wrote: It is worth knowing that active masers have a span for how the hydrogen in-flux will make it oscillate or not. Too little or too high, and the oscillation will die off. It may be one of the things to tune up if you got an older one which needs a bit of good old Love, Tender and Care. BTW: I always ment to ask, what makes H-Masers stop when there is too much hydrogen? I can understand too little H causes the system not having enough atoms to probe (or not getting enough energy into the system for active masers), but i don't understand the too many case. Attila Kinali -- I pity people who can't find laughter or at least some bit of amusement in the little doings of the day. I believe I could find something ridiculous even in the saddest moment, if necessary. It has nothing to do with being superficial. It's a matter of joy in life. -- Sophie Scholl ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Hydrogen Maser KIT! Update #1
On Sun, 02 Nov 2014 21:49:34 -0500 Chuck Harris cfhar...@erols.com wrote: They cleaned the vessel very well first with acetone and second, probably a little distilled water to etch the glass slightly, Distilled water etches glass? Really? Attila Kinali -- I pity people who can't find laughter or at least some bit of amusement in the little doings of the day. I believe I could find something ridiculous even in the saddest moment, if necessary. It has nothing to do with being superficial. It's a matter of joy in life. -- Sophie Scholl ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] NPR Story I heard this morning
It's surprisingly large. I have a scale that can measure 20g down to a microgram (and worked on one that can do a gram at nanogram resolution). Taking the microgram scale up one floor in a building was easily detectable... I don't remember the exact number but it think it was in the 1 ppm/meter range. Does anyone know how much g changes per cm of altitude? I'm to lazy to figure it out ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] NPR Story I heard this morning
Found it on page 17 of Mettler's excellent article: Adverse Influences and Their Prevention in Weighing http://us.mt.com/dam/mt_ext_files/Editorial/Generic/2/Weigh_Uncertain_Number1_0x0003d6750003db6700091746_files/adverse_influences.pdf It works out to be -0.3 ppm/meter. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Hydrogen Maser KIT! Update #1
Yes, really. Ever see a double pane insulated glass door that looks white and frosted on the inside? That is due to water vapor that found its way between the panes, and condensed. Because the inside glass is about as clean and free of dirt (minerals) as the manufacturer could make it, the condensed (distilled) water leaches out silicon, etching the glass. Nature abhors a vacuum. In the case of putting a teflon coating inside of the bottle, you want the sides of the bottle to have lots of nooks and crannies (at a molecular level) for the teflon to mechanically grip onto... So, it helps to etch it a little bit. HF will do the job very quickly, but if you have a source of well polished distilled/dionized water, you can etch it that way as well... it just takes a little longer. -Chuck Harris Attila Kinali wrote: On Sun, 02 Nov 2014 21:49:34 -0500 Chuck Harris cfhar...@erols.com wrote: They cleaned the vessel very well first with acetone and second, probably a little distilled water to etch the glass slightly, Distilled water etches glass? Really? Attila Kinali ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Hydrogen Maser KIT! Update #1
I would presume the usual reason is you want enough hydrogen to resonate at the desired microwave frequency, but not so much that you wreck the Q (spread the line width) with excess collisions. -Chuck Harris Attila Kinali wrote: On Mon, 03 Nov 2014 00:39:24 +0100 Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org wrote: It is worth knowing that active masers have a span for how the hydrogen in-flux will make it oscillate or not. Too little or too high, and the oscillation will die off. It may be one of the things to tune up if you got an older one which needs a bit of good old Love, Tender and Care. BTW: I always ment to ask, what makes H-Masers stop when there is too much hydrogen? I can understand too little H causes the system not having enough atoms to probe (or not getting enough energy into the system for active masers), but i don't understand the too many case. Attila Kinali ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Hydrogen Maser KIT! Update #1
I'd be tempted to experiment with other methods of bulb coating but the time and effort in disassembly, re assembly and testing is so great that I'm going to use a tried and true method to increase the chances of success! It's definitely NOT just as simple as screwing in a different light bulb and trying again! Cheers, Corby ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Hydrogen Maser KIT! Update #1
Hello, Monday, November 3, 2014, 5:40:30, Chuck Harris wrote: C I would think that making the teflon coating would be pretty easy. C What I would try is to put a nichrome boat, and some teflon into the C vessel, and pull it down to a good vacuum. Then heat up the boat, C and the teflon should sublime, and condense on the walls of the C vessel. C The nichrome boat could be something as simple as wrapping the nichrome C into a solenoid form around some teflon rod. C -Chuck Harris Teflon decomposes at high temperatures, releasing some sublimate and a lot of really nasty chemicals, like fluorfosgen. There is a chance that really thin even coating can be produced this way, but a lot of experimentation would be needed. I would try to take samples of PTFE-insulated hookup wire (from different manufacturers, say white Alfa or Belden wire and russian MGTF wire that use slightly different PTFE formula) and try to make coating inside glass tube samples, using copper wire as heater by itself. I doubt that there will be good results, though. Classic way with thin slurry application and heating to teflon melt point to make solid film may be more realistic. C Bob Camp wrote: Hi It’s been way too many years since my last Maser play session … Will it fire up *without* the Teflon coating on the bulb? Yes it works *better* with the Teflon (less wall interaction). Getting the bulb re-coated might be a major pain. It does look ugly in it’s current state. I’m wondering about just stripping the bulb and then seeing what works and what does not. Bob C ___ C time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com C To unsubscribe, go to C https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts C and follow the instructions there. -- Best regards, Yuri mailto:y...@ostry.ru ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] NPR Story I heard this morning
Chris Albertson writes: But you are right, no two clocks will ever agree at that level because they will experience different gravitational fields. At this level the reason to have a clock is no longer to tell time. It is to measure the gravitational field. I have a question about that. If I understand correctly, recent IAU resolutions have decoupled the definition of the SI second from the terrestrial geoid, which is too fuzzy to be used for a definition. Instead the geoid potential is held fixed by (or defined by) a constant. Potential with respect to what exactly? At infinity is all very well, but there are local gravity sources (solar, even galactic) that would seem to complicate any operational realization of this definition. Sorry if this is a bit off-topic. I'd like a simple, clear explanation for the layman that drills down on exactly how the current definitional scheme can be realized to arbitrary precision. For example, assume that we must go off-earth at some point to get a better timescale. How fuzzy is the solar potential (soloid)? Cheers, Peter ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] NPR Story I heard this morning
On Mon, Nov 3, 2014 at 10:15 AM, Hal Murray hmur...@megapathdsl.net wrote: albertson.ch...@gmail.com said: But you are right, no two clocks will ever agree at that level because they will experience different gravitational fields. What if I adjust the elevation (aka gravity) of one of them until it matches? Or at least gets within the resolution and ADEV of the pair? You adjust it but then how long does it stay adjusted. The Earth, Moon and Sun are in constant motion. The gravity field is no static. OK maybe you could compute this and place the clocks n moving platforms? They will never agree, not at the lowest level. Here is another question: Is time a continuous function? It may not be at some scale. Suppose you had two super-accurate clocks that were next to each other. Would they phase lock? -- These are my opinions. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Hydrogen Maser KIT! Update #1
Hi Corby, Just curious, how did you remove the original coating, and why? -Chuck Harris cdel...@juno.com wrote: I'd be tempted to experiment with other methods of bulb coating but the time and effort in disassembly, re assembly and testing is so great that I'm going to use a tried and true method to increase the chances of success! It's definitely NOT just as simple as screwing in a different light bulb and trying again! Cheers, Corby ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Hydrogen Maser KIT! Update #1
Hi Yuri, It would be a very good idea to keep the temperature of the nichrome wire low, and that might be the biggest problem with the vacuum deposition technique... the wire could get too hot in some places, and stay too cool in others. A really uncontrolled experiment, aka: a thermal wire stripper, gets covered with white snow from the teflon vapor released while stripping teflon wire. -Chuck Harris Yuri Ostry wrote: Hello, Monday, November 3, 2014, 5:40:30, Chuck Harris wrote: C I would think that making the teflon coating would be pretty easy. C What I would try is to put a nichrome boat, and some teflon into the C vessel, and pull it down to a good vacuum. Then heat up the boat, C and the teflon should sublime, and condense on the walls of the C vessel. C The nichrome boat could be something as simple as wrapping the nichrome C into a solenoid form around some teflon rod. C -Chuck Harris Teflon decomposes at high temperatures, releasing some sublimate and a lot of really nasty chemicals, like fluorfosgen. There is a chance that really thin even coating can be produced this way, but a lot of experimentation would be needed. I would try to take samples of PTFE-insulated hookup wire (from different manufacturers, say white Alfa or Belden wire and russian MGTF wire that use slightly different PTFE formula) and try to make coating inside glass tube samples, using copper wire as heater by itself. I doubt that there will be good results, though. Classic way with thin slurry application and heating to teflon melt point to make solid film may be more realistic. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] NPR Story I heard this morning
___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] NPR Story I heard this morning
Yes, A story about time and frequency standards. They actually used numbers like 10E16 in the story. Apparently at that level your clock can measure a change in elevation of a few centimeters because of the relativistic effects of the reduced gravity field in just a few cm. Hi Chris, That's correct. When it comes to frequency standards the official SI second is defined only for sea level. We know time and frequency are bent by speed or gravity; time is the integral of frequency; and frequency is a function of height (h) by approximately gh/c². It's that simple. But it's a very tiny effect. Planet gravity fields decrease quadratically over large distances (1/R²) but approximately linearly near the surface. So here on Earth, with g = ~9.8 m/s² and c = ~300,000 km/s, frequency increases by about 1e-18/cm, or 1e-16/m, or 1e-13/km. This is called gravitational time dilation, or blueshift. Now, for amateurs like us who just make things at home or buy and repair atomic clocks on eBay, numbers like 1e-18 and 1e-16 are completely out of range: that's what government labs are for. But the 1e-13 number is interesting, and approachable -- especially if you live near a tall mountain. If you take a 1e-14 stable cesium clock up 1 km, it will run fast by about 1e-13 (in frequency) and thus it will gain about 10 ± 1 ns per day (in time, or phase) compared to a clock left down at home. These days, time differences at the nanosecond level are easily measurable -- so that's what I did with http://leapsecond.com/great2005/ Of course, NIST USNO always have much better clocks than we do, so they can measure the effect of smaller elevation changes, over smaller time scales. Just amazing. Maybe we'll be able to buy an optical clock on eBay 20 years from now. Note that their clocks are not (yet) portable and consequently you can make a more accurate gravitational time dilation / general relativity measurement at home by taking vintage hp 5071A cesium beam microwave clocks up a tall mountain than they can with record-setting strontium optical clocks inside a NIST building. Essentially, if you take a clock to high altitude for a weekend you create a super-duper blueshift microscope. Instead of unimaginably small numbers like 1e-18, I went up about 1340 meters (instead of just 1 cm) and I stayed up there about 42 hours (instead of one second). Thus my cm-second magnification factor was 1340 * 100 * 42 * 3600 = 20 billion! That reduces a crazy tiny number like 1e-18 to a real, tangible, measurable, fun-with-family, DIY time dilation number like 2e-8, or 20 ns. /tvb ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] NPR Story I heard this morning
OK, I am going to show my ignorance now. Being in my 70th year, I forgot an awful lot of what I learned in school. Anyway, regarding time and gravity, I certainly believe the mathematics of Einstein and others, however, I have a hard time believing that man-made instruments to measure the effects of gravity on time is valid. For example in a Cesium clock, time is a function of the transition time between two hyperfine lines of Cesium atoms. So, does gravity affect this transition time within the Cesium atoms? It may very well, but, I am not smart enough to know that. Maybe someone can help. Also, when someone mentioned moving a very sensitive scale up in elevation and noting the difference due to gravitational effects, also seems odd to me. Seems like even in the most sensitive scales, weight is measured as the difference between the weighing platform and the body of the instrument. Here again, moving the whole assembly up in elevation it would seem to me that gravity would affect both the platform and the body, and the relative weight indicated should remain the same. What am I missing besides gray matter? Thanks - Mike Mike B. Feher, EOZ Inc. 89 Arnold Blvd. Howell, NJ, 07731 732-886-5960 office 908-902-3831 cell -Original Message- From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Tom Van Baak Sent: Monday, November 03, 2014 3:55 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] NPR Story I heard this morning Yes, A story about time and frequency standards. They actually used numbers like 10E16 in the story. Apparently at that level your clock can measure a change in elevation of a few centimeters because of the relativistic effects of the reduced gravity field in just a few cm. Hi Chris, That's correct. When it comes to frequency standards the official SI second is defined only for sea level. We know time and frequency are bent by speed or gravity; time is the integral of frequency; and frequency is a function of height (h) by approximately gh/c². It's that simple. But it's a very tiny effect. Planet gravity fields decrease quadratically over large distances (1/R²) but approximately linearly near the surface. So here on Earth, with g = ~9.8 m/s² and c = ~300,000 km/s, frequency increases by about 1e-18/cm, or 1e-16/m, or 1e-13/km. This is called gravitational time dilation, or blueshift. Now, for amateurs like us who just make things at home or buy and repair atomic clocks on eBay, numbers like 1e-18 and 1e-16 are completely out of range: that's what government labs are for. But the 1e-13 number is interesting, and approachable -- especially if you live near a tall mountain. If you take a 1e-14 stable cesium clock up 1 km, it will run fast by about 1e-13 (in frequency) and thus it will gain about 10 ± 1 ns per day (in time, or phase) compared to a clock left down at home. These days, time differences at the nanosecond level are easily measurable -- so that's what I did with http://leapsecond.com/great2005/ Of course, NIST USNO always have much better clocks than we do, so they can measure the effect of smaller elevation changes, over smaller time scales. Just amazing. Maybe we'll be able to buy an optical clock on eBay 20 years from now. Note that their clocks are not (yet) portable and consequently you can make a more accurate gravitational time dilation / general relativity measurement at home by taking vintage hp 5071A cesium beam microwave clocks up a tall mountain than they can with record-setting strontium optical clocks inside a NIST building. Essentially, if you take a clock to high altitude for a weekend you create a super-duper blueshift microscope. Instead of unimaginably small numbers like 1e-18, I went up about 1340 meters (instead of just 1 cm) and I stayed up there about 42 hours (instead of one second). Thus my cm-second magnification factor was 1340 * 100 * 42 * 3600 = 20 billion! That reduces a crazy tiny number like 1e-18 to a real, tangible, measurable, fun-with-family, DIY time dilation number like 2e-8, or 20 ns. /tvb ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] NPR Story I heard this morning
The highest accessible peak in the Adirondacks I think would be Whiteface at 4,867 ft, though that would be by ski lift and not all the way to the top. The highest point accessible by car in the Northeast would be Mt. Washington here in New Hampshire at 6288 ft. Hmm... David On 11/3/14 1:02 PM, Hal Murray wrote: x...@darksmile.net said: I was planning a similar trip from Astoria Queens, NYC which is sea level, to Adirondack Mountains, upstate New York. You will need clocks that are better than Tom's. :) He parked at 5,000 feet. Do any roads go that high in the Adirondacks? How high can you park? What's the efficiency of the generator in a parked car compared to a portable generator? What's the right unit? kilo-watt-hours per gallon? How does a normal car compare to a hybrid? ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] NPR Story I heard this morning
On Mon, Nov 3, 2014 at 1:18 PM, Mike Feher mfe...@eozinc.com wrote: Anyway, regarding time and gravity, I certainly believe the mathematics of Einstein and others, however, I have a hard time believing that man-made instruments to measure the effects of gravity on time is valid. For example in a Cesium clock, time is a function of the transition time between two hyperfine lines of Cesium atoms. So, does gravity affect this transition time within the Cesium atoms? It may very well, but, I am not smart enough to know that. Maybe someone can help. This may not be a very satisfactory explanation, but in a nutshell it's not the atomic transition time that changes with gravitational potential, but *time itself*. And remember, it's a *relative* effect - you can only measure it when you compare two clocks at different heights, never just by looking at one by itself, no matter how good it is. Also, when someone mentioned moving a very sensitive scale up in elevation and noting the difference due to gravitational effects, also seems odd to me. Seems like even in the most sensitive scales, weight is measured as the difference between the weighing platform and the body of the instrument. Here again, moving the whole assembly up in elevation it would seem to me that gravity would affect both the platform and the body, and the relative weight indicated should remain the same. What am I missing besides gray matter? Thanks - Mike Weighing scales do not work by measuring the gravitational attraction between the scale and the object to be measured. They measure the attraction between the earth and the object to be measured. When you go up a hill, you move the apparatus and the object, but not the earth. Henry ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Hydrogen Maser KIT! Update #1
Chuck, The coating opposite the entrance to the bulb was degraded to the point that it was missing over a large area and the tiny particles of loose Teflon were free to move about in the bulb. (Rolling the bulb you could see a little pile of particles moving about) Since a majority of the hydrogen atoms entering the bulb impact first at the opposite end that would cause a large majority of the atoms in the correct state to be perturbed as well as recombine into molecules. So since the end needed recoating it's best to do the whole thing. Per the question of aqueous dispersions here is an excerpt from Dupont: DuPont Teflon® aqueous dispersions are milky white dispersions of PTFE particles in water, stabilized by wetting agents. Cheers, Corby ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 10MHz Rubidium reference source for frequencycounter
Tom wrote: As I understand it, his project is to use the high frequency output of a ublox NEO-7M to discipline a MV89 with a James Miller-style analog PLL. * * * (perhaps someone can post an English translation for us) Tom, I have a machine-translated PDF (~2.5MB), but nowhere to put it up. If you have web space for it, please feel free to do so (assuming that Karen does not object). I have reservations about the potential of any Miller-style GPSDO, because using an analog PLL essentially guarantees that the crossover to GPS will be at a tau orders of magnitude lower than it should be -- the Miller unit crosses over about 3 OOM too low (see attached plot, from http://www.leapsecond.com/pages/gpsdo/). The beloved Thunderbolt also crosses over about 2.5 OOM too early, if you use the factory loop settings (id.). But it has an ADPLL with adjustable parameters, so a time nut can tune the loop for best performance with the particular OCXO in the unit. (See http://www.ke5fx.com/tbolt.htm.) Best regards, Charles ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] NPR Story I heard this morning
I have a question about that. If I understand correctly, recent IAU resolutions have decoupled the definition of the SI second from the terrestrial geoid, which is too fuzzy to be used for a definition. Instead the geoid potential is held fixed by (or defined by) a constant. Potential with respect to what exactly? At infinity is all very well, but there are local gravity sources (solar, even galactic) that would seem to complicate any operational realization of this definition. Sorry if this is a bit off-topic. I'd like a simple, clear explanation for the layman that drills down on exactly how the current definitional scheme can be realized to arbitrary precision. For example, assume that we must go off-earth at some point to get a better timescale. How fuzzy is the solar potential (soloid)? Cheers, Peter Hi Peter, Based on mass and radius, a clock here on Earth ticks about 6.969e-10 slower than it would at infinity. The correction drops roughly as 1/R below sea level and 1/R² above sea level. For practical and historical reasons we define the SI second at sea level. The non-local gravity perturbations you speak of are 2nd or 3rd order and so you probably don't need to worry about them. Then again, if you want to get picky, it's easy to compute how much the earth recoils when you stand up vs. sit down. So it's best to avoid the notion of arbitrary precision; that's for mathematicians. For normal people, including scientists, we know that precision and accuracy have practical limits. The most obvious gravitational perturbation is that of the Moon. You can predict, and even measure, that g changes in the 7th decimal place as the moon orbits the earth. This is so minor it cannot as yet be measured by the best atomic clocks, but it has been measured by the best pendulum clocks (because pendulum clock make better gravimeters than atomic clocks). For details, see: http://leapsecond.com/hsn2006/ Your fuzzy question is good. When error or noise is constant one can simply use standard deviation or rms to quantify the amount of fuzz. But when the perturbations are not simple and fixed in time you want a statistic that incorporates not just accuracy, but stability. For this you need something like ADEV and its log-log plots of stability as a function of tau. As an example, here is the ADEV of Earth: http://leapsecond.com/museum/earth/ /tvb ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] NPR Story I heard this morning
David, Let's talk. It is not impossible that I could drive my clocks to the East Coast for a Mt. Washington experiment. /tvb - Original Message - From: David McGaw n1...@dartmouth.edu To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Monday, November 03, 2014 1:07 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] NPR Story I heard this morning The highest accessible peak in the Adirondacks I think would be Whiteface at 4,867 ft, though that would be by ski lift and not all the way to the top. The highest point accessible by car in the Northeast would be Mt. Washington here in New Hampshire at 6288 ft. Hmm... David ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] NPR Story I heard this morning
On 11/3/2014 3:54 PM, Tom Van Baak wrote: When it comes to frequency standards the official SI second is defined only for sea level. We know time and frequency are bent by speed or gravity; According to the BIPM: At its 1997 meeting the CIPM affirmed that: This definition refers to a caesium atom at rest at a temperature of 0 K. - http://www.bipm.org/en/publications/si-brochure/second.html Isn't weight equivalent to acceleration, and it's therefore not at rest when sitting on a table at sea level? I don't see anything in the BIPM definition of the second regarding sea level. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Hydrogen Maser KIT! Update #1
BTW, be careful with micronized teflon... it is a very powerful oxidizer and forms highly combustible/explosive/nasty mixtures with things like powdered or finely divided metals. Particularly magnesium, aluminum, and titanium. More than one machinist has been surprised by exploding swarf. Magnesium/teflon thermite has three times the heat output per gram than iron oxide/aluminum plus releases HF on ignition. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] NPR Story I heard this morning
I'd be happy to volunteer my 5061 for such an experiment! Located in Troy, N.Y., I can get it down to about 15' ASL, possibly as low as 12' if I go to the basement in a downtown building. The river is at 13' ASL iirc. Bob On Mon, Nov 3, 2014 at 4:53 PM, Tom Van Baak t...@leapsecond.com wrote: David, Let's talk. It is not impossible that I could drive my clocks to the East Coast for a Mt. Washington experiment. /tvb - Original Message - From: David McGaw n1...@dartmouth.edu To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Monday, November 03, 2014 1:07 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] NPR Story I heard this morning The highest accessible peak in the Adirondacks I think would be Whiteface at 4,867 ft, though that would be by ski lift and not all the way to the top. The highest point accessible by car in the Northeast would be Mt. Washington here in New Hampshire at 6288 ft. Hmm... David ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] NPR Story I heard this morning
I don't see anything in the BIPM definition of the second regarding sea level. Hi Mike, The usual wording for the definition of the SI second also includes the word unperturbed. That little word covers a host of physics and engineering effects and can keep graduate students busy for years. You either have to eliminate them from your clock or your lab, or extra carefully measure then and back-out their effects on your clock's operating frequency. For a really good example of the sort of corrections that are made inside a cesium clock see: http://tf.nist.gov/general/pdf/1497.pdf By the time you read to page 30, you'll see table 3 and 4 which summarize the perturbing corrections. /tvb ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] NPR Story I heard this morning
Not to put too fine a point on it, but my practical understanding is that any two or more clocks generally do *not* agree (that is - yield identical phase/frequency information) ever, anyway. So atomic horology - and beyond - means that we continue to ?adjust? ?compensate? clocks of whatever stability and accuracy to the current, agreed upon ideal - even as the ideal may move or evolve. On Mon, Nov 3, 2014 at 4:27 PM, Tom Van Baak t...@leapsecond.com wrote: I don't see anything in the BIPM definition of the second regarding sea level. Hi Mike, The usual wording for the definition of the SI second also includes the word unperturbed. That little word covers a host of physics and engineering effects and can keep graduate students busy for years. You either have to eliminate them from your clock or your lab, or extra carefully measure then and back-out their effects on your clock's operating frequency. For a really good example of the sort of corrections that are made inside a cesium clock see: http://tf.nist.gov/general/pdf/1497.pdf By the time you read to page 30, you'll see table 3 and 4 which summarize the perturbing corrections. /tvb ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] NPR Story I heard this morning
Hi Ken, That's correct. No two clocks ever agree. If they look like they do, you are not looking close enough or not waiting long enough. That's also why UTC is based on the combined stability of hundreds of clocks. The weighted average of many cesium clocks is known to be better than any one cesium clock. So a big part of the UTC infrastructure is the inter-comparison of clocks all around the world. Another part is then slowly adjusting local standards to follow the more accurate global mean. You'll notice too, that many postings to this list are not just about clocks, but also precise time measurement, and about disciplining. Whether UTC at a national lab or a GPSDO at home, there is clock, measurement, and gradual adjustment. /tvb - Original Message - From: ken hartman To: Tom Van Baak ; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Sent: Monday, November 03, 2014 2:52 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] NPR Story I heard this morning Not to put too fine a point on it, but my practical understanding is that any two or more clocks generally do *not* agree (that is - yield identical phase/frequency information) ever, anyway. So atomic horology - and beyond - means that we continue to ?adjust? ?compensate? clocks of whatever stability and accuracy to the current, agreed upon ideal - even as the ideal may move or evolve. On Mon, Nov 3, 2014 at 4:27 PM, Tom Van Baak t...@leapsecond.com wrote: I don't see anything in the BIPM definition of the second regarding sea level. Hi Mike, The usual wording for the definition of the SI second also includes the word unperturbed. That little word covers a host of physics and engineering effects and can keep graduate students busy for years. You either have to eliminate them from your clock or your lab, or extra carefully measure then and back-out their effects on your clock's operating frequency. For a really good example of the sort of corrections that are made inside a cesium clock see: http://tf.nist.gov/general/pdf/1497.pdf By the time you read to page 30, you'll see table 3 and 4 which summarize the perturbing corrections. /tvb ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] NPR Story I heard this morning
Because for optical clocks Strontium is better suited than Caesium. Caesium was at one time judged as the best suited for atomic beam designs, but is not considered the best for fountain clocks, since caesium has larger cross-section than rubidium, so the effect of collisions becomes larger. For optical clocks strontium and aluminium is among several possible choices. There is nothing magic about caesium, it was just the chosen reference at one time. There where actually a better choice from certain aspects, but for several reasons judged as harder to design a clock from. Cheers, Magnus On 11/03/2014 07:16 PM, xaos wrote: Why Strontium over Caesium? Is it because it just sounds more hi-tech ? LOL Maybe stupid question to most here, but I do not know the answer. -GKH On 11/03/2014 12:59 PM, Chris Albertson wrote: On Mon, Nov 3, 2014 at 8:17 AM, xaos x...@darksmile.net wrote: Small correction: The numbers were 10E-16. No I think it was one part in 10E16 ;) But the interesting thing was they used numbers rather then saying something like really super ultra tiny. But you are right, no two clocks will ever agree at that level because they will experience different gravitational fields. At this level the reason to have a clock is no longer to tell time. It is to measure the gravitational field. With an array of many clocks like these we might be able to map the density of the interior of the earth or detect black holes or who knows what. I think it opens up a new area of observation. When ever this happens we discover things we never would have thought of. Maybe in 40 years these Strontium oscillators will be mass produced for $2 each. Does anyone know how much g changes per cm of altitude? I'm to lazy to figure it out. One important concept that was discussed was this: If the next generation clock was even more accurate (maybe by an order or two), then no two clocks can ever agree on the time. Minute changes in gravity and other factors will always make each clock completely different. So, to that I said: WOW! Wait just a damn minute. I got into this so I can tell time precisely. Now I'm back to to the beginning. I know I am exaggerating a bit here but still. -GKH On 11/03/2014 11:09 AM, Chris Albertson wrote: Yes, A story about time and frequency standards. They actually used numbers like 10E16 in the story. Apparently at that level your clock can measure a change in elevation of a few centimeters because of the relativistic effects of the reduced gravity field in just a few cm. On Mon, Nov 3, 2014 at 6:28 AM, xaos x...@darksmile.net wrote: This morning, as I was driving to work, I heard this really cool story on NPR radio here in NYC. This is the link to the story: http://www.npr.org/2014/11/03/361069820/what-time-is-it-it-depends-where-you-are-in-the-universe What a nice way to start the week. Past stories with similar headlines. http://www.npr.org/2014/01/24/265247930/tickety-tock-an-even-more-accurate-atomic-clock Cheers, George Hrysanthopoulos, N2FGX ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z381...
Hi I got a chance to look at phase noise today. I’ll try to post the plots later. Quick summary: 10 MHz - ugly. Lots of spurs, many of them close in. Poor phase noise floor. 15 MHz - pretty good. Noise floor is not as good as a TBolt (by 5 to 15 db). Far fewer spurs than the 10 MHz, fewer spurs than the TBolts I’ve looked at. ADEV on a short run looks better than an un-tuned TBolt. I’ll need a much longer run to see what it’s really doing. Bob On Nov 3, 2014, at 1:20 PM, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote: Ah, that's interesting, perhaps it wasn't me after all then. Did you have the same flashing ON light symptoms? Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 03/11/2014 17:56:56 GMT Standard Time, hmur...@megapathdsl.net writes: It turns out this is what happens if you switch the Output Level from 17 to 23, obviously an advisory indication to draw attention to the higher output. Switching it back reduces the level, as expected, and returns the LED function to normal. Phew:-) I can't remember switching it but don't suppose it arrived like that so guess I must have done. My pair came with Ref-0 set at 17 and Ref-1 at 23. -- These are my opinions. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] NPR Story I heard this morning
(I noticed earlier in the thread, folks writing 10E-16 when I think they meant 1E-16, at least based on the Fortran notation I learned a long time ago. I am living proof, that a good Fortran programmer can write spaghetti code in any language!) On time quantization: Planck Time is 3.59E-44 seconds: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planck_time Caldirola's model gives the chronon for the electron to be 6.27E-24 seconds: http://dinamico2.unibg.it/recami/erasmo%20docs/SomeRecentSCIENTIFICpapers/Chronon(QuantumOfTime)/RRuyAIEP2010Ch2.pdf On Mon, Nov 3, 2014 at 3:05 PM, Chris Albertson albertson.ch...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Nov 3, 2014 at 10:15 AM, Hal Murray hmur...@megapathdsl.net wrote: albertson.ch...@gmail.com said: But you are right, no two clocks will ever agree at that level because they will experience different gravitational fields. What if I adjust the elevation (aka gravity) of one of them until it matches? Or at least gets within the resolution and ADEV of the pair? You adjust it but then how long does it stay adjusted. The Earth, Moon and Sun are in constant motion. The gravity field is no static. OK maybe you could compute this and place the clocks n moving platforms? They will never agree, not at the lowest level. Here is another question: Is time a continuous function? It may not be at some scale. Suppose you had two super-accurate clocks that were next to each other. Would they phase lock? -- These are my opinions. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] NPR Story I heard this morning
On 11/3/14, 1:50 PM, Tom Van Baak wrote: I have a question about that. If I understand correctly, recent IAU resolutions have decoupled the definition of the SI second from the terrestrial geoid, which is too fuzzy to be used for a definition. Instead the geoid potential is held fixed by (or defined by) a constant. Potential with respect to what exactly? At infinity is all very well, but there are local gravity sources (solar, even galactic) that would seem to complicate any operational realization of this definition. Sorry if this is a bit off-topic. I'd like a simple, clear explanation for the layman that drills down on exactly how the current definitional scheme can be realized to arbitrary precision. For example, assume that we must go off-earth at some point to get a better timescale. How fuzzy is the solar potential (soloid)? Cheers, Peter Hi Peter, Based on mass and radius, a clock here on Earth ticks about 6.969e-10 slower than it would at infinity. The correction drops roughly as 1/R below sea level and 1/R² above sea level. For practical and historical reasons we define the SI second at sea level. The non-local gravity perturbations you speak of are 2nd or 3rd order and so you probably don't need to worry about them. Then again, if you want to get picky, it's easy to compute how much the earth recoils when you stand up vs. sit down. So it's best to avoid the notion of arbitrary precision; that's for mathematicians. For normal people, including scientists, we know that precision and accuracy have practical limits. The most obvious gravitational perturbation is that of the Moon. You can predict, and even measure, that g changes in the 7th decimal place as the moon orbits the earth. This is so minor it cannot as yet be measured by the best atomic clocks, but it has been measured by the best pendulum clocks (because pendulum clock make better gravimeters than atomic clocks). For details, see: http://leapsecond.com/hsn2006/ Sun and Moon are of about the same gravity magnitude, and, of course, you get approx one cycle/day for both. Wikipedia says about 2E-6 m/sec^2 (e.g. 7th digit, as Tom said) Wikipedia also provides some math models for variation with latitude, etc. Interestingly, they say that the variation among different cities amounts to about 0.5% (Anchorage high, Kandy low) for height.. g(h) = g(0) * (Re/(Re+h))^2 Change of 0.08% for 0 to 9000 meters Since the period of a pendulum goes as Sqrt(1/g), the sun/moon effect is about 1E-7.. Set up a 10 meter long pendulum, which will have a period a bit longer than 6 seconds.Set it swinging, and time it for 200 swings (about 20 minutes) (I think it will run that long if you've got a nice heavy bob, etc.) Accurately(!) time that 1200 second interval with 100 microsecond precision and you might *just* be able to see the effect. I started down this measurement path in the 70s in high school, but encountered several logistics problems. - big pendulums are subject to environmental effects. You might do better with a shorter pendulum in a vacuum, which would eliminate air drag and reduce temperature effects. - this kind of timing implies that you've got a counter stable to 1E-8 over the measurement period (notionally 12 hrs) And at this precision, there's all kinds of other effects one should take into account (for instance, the period is only approximately = 2*pi*sqrt(L/g).. that depends on the sin(theta)=theta small angle approximation. However, i've always wanted to set up a rig where there's one of those big Foucault pendulums and see if you can do it. I suspect the drive system on the big ones would perturb the system, but maybe you could do an off hours experiment and let it just swing down to zero. - ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Hydrogen Maser KIT! Update #1
Hi Corby, I figured that you had a good reason, but from casual viewing of the pictures you provided the coating looked pretty reasonable, so I wondered. The stabilizing agents are the key. Teflon particles don't like water sticking to them all that well, hence their use in things like gortex. The stabilizing agents are probably just a surfactant. I think I might try an experiment with some of the teflon spray lube relative to outgassing... If I can find a few spare hours. I would suggest, that unless you are well experienced in handling such coatings, you try it out on something easier to evaluate, like perhaps a flask. -Chuck Harris cdel...@juno.com wrote: Chuck, The coating opposite the entrance to the bulb was degraded to the point that it was missing over a large area and the tiny particles of loose Teflon were free to move about in the bulb. (Rolling the bulb you could see a little pile of particles moving about) Since a majority of the hydrogen atoms entering the bulb impact first at the opposite end that would cause a large majority of the atoms in the correct state to be perturbed as well as recombine into molecules. So since the end needed recoating it's best to do the whole thing. Per the question of aqueous dispersions here is an excerpt from Dupont: DuPont Teflon® aqueous dispersions are milky white dispersions of PTFE particles in water, stabilized by wetting agents. Cheers, Corby ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Hydrogen Maser KIT! Update #1
I wonder how well Viton would work? Viton is soluble in acetone and should make coating much easier. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
Hi On Nov 3, 2014, at 12:00 PM, Arthur Dent golgarfrinc...@gmail.com wrote: GandalfG8 at aol.com GandalfG8 at aol.com Sun Nov 2 09:08:30 EST 2014 wrote: Ooh err, whoops, and oh dear !! Arthur, I've only just had a chance to look at your latest photos, and unless I've really got my wires crossed, if you'll pardon the expression:-), your links on J5 are not shown on pins 2, 10, 12, and 15, but on pins 4, 6, 11, and 13. + Darn-I'm glad someone was paying more attention than I was when I wrote that years ago. Apparently when I was documenting what modifications I had made I just picked up a 15 pin D plug shell to get the numbers instead of looking at the obvious numbers on the RFTG socket connector and those connectors being mirror images have the numbers reversed. I was out geocaching yesterday and didn't catch up on the new posts until this morning so I'm a little late in responding. I also checked to see if I had any other scribbles on the changes I made and found this: If pin 2 is held low the 'ON' LED will flash. A pulse low will turn it on. The RC timer holds pin 2 low to flash for about 6 seconds so you can see it actually happens then pin 2 returns high and the 'ON' LED stays on solid. So apparently some of the parts I added were to just make the light look like they were working correctly (can you spell OCD?) and may not be necessary. As I originally said, this was a hack and I wanted others to duplicate what I had done to see if any of it made sense to them. At least it appears that by adding the circuit I came up with and/or adding jumpers you can get the RFTG-u REF 1 unit to work without the slave unit. I just ordered another RFTG-u REF 1 and will see if I can modify that and get it to output 10Mhz instead of 5Mhz like my original unit. The 15 MHz “chain” in the units is *much* cleaner than what ever they did to get 10 MHz. It looks like the 15 MHz has some sort of push pull amp driving a fairly involved filter. Best guess is they have a 3X stage and a fairly involved filter to take out the 5, 10 and 20 MHz signals. Turning the 3X into a 2X (assuming you can find it) should be fairly easy. The doubler should be cleaner than the 3X, so less filtering would be needed. Working out their filter circuit might be easier than it looks. Right now it looks pretty complex to me. Sorry about the screw up on the numbers. Sorry I could not find any of these when you first posted about them…. Bob -Arthur ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Z3812 Diag port data? RE: time-nuts Digest, Vol 124, Issue 26
Hi On my pair of boxes, the slave is the one that is active. The GPS is the one that is inactive (standby). Plugging into the RS-422 / PPS port, I see a pps and a GPS timestamp, and the status bits. That tells me that the slave box *must* be seeing the GPS data strings from the GPS box. It still leaves the question of “can you talk back to the GPS from the slave?” open. My boxes were flakey at first. What I finally figured out was that the interface cable was the weak link. I’d bet that the short pins don’t mate quite well enough with their sockets. After some wiggling all has been ok for a while. Bob On Nov 3, 2014, at 10:12 AM, Bob Stewart b...@evoria.net wrote: Hi Bob, Talking on J8-Diagnostic port. All I see on the RS-422 port is a timestamp. Bob From: Bob Camp kb...@n1k.org To: Bob Stewart b...@evoria.net; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Monday, November 3, 2014 6:17 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Z3812 Diag port data? RE: time-nuts Digest, Vol 124, Issue 26 Hi Ok, on the slave you have, are you talking to the Diag (HP) port or to the RS-422 / PPS (Lucent) port? Bob On Nov 2, 2014, at 10:15 PM, Bob Stewart b...@evoria.net wrote: Hi Bob, I am only able to communicate with my system through the REF-0/slave unit. I had thought this was normal behavior till someone, you perhaps, posted that that was not correct. So, I've emailed Aecis to request a replacement REF-1. BobFrom: Bob Camp kb...@n1k.org To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Sunday, November 2, 2014 8:20 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Z3812 Diag port data? RE: time-nuts Digest, Vol 124, Issue 26 HI So at least there is one way communications from the GPS box to the slave box. Bidirectional com would be a bit complex given the lack of UART’s on the pc board. I’d bet it just runs through a standard set of messages on the GPS and watches the results. The way to quickly prove I’m wrong would be to issue a command to the GPS from the slave that it must respond to. Something like go into survey mode or set the location to xxx yyy zzz. I’ve certainly been wrong before. I suppose they could do dual source TTL com directly at the GPS module level. I’d think that would drive the GPS unit a bit nuts when the slave started switching things around…. Bob On Nov 2, 2014, at 4:16 PM, n2lym n2...@optonline.net wrote: Yes the diagnostic port on the slave unit diaplay's gps data just like the Z3811. Therefore there must be serial data being exchanged on the 15 pin interconnect. Mike N2LYM Message: 5 Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2014 15:58:20 -0500 From: gandal...@aol.com To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812... Message-ID: 868c5.58494d20.4187f...@aol.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Just another thought though, does the diagnostic port on the slave also communicate with SatStat etc? That would imply at least a transfer of serial data in one direction, even if not for the control functions. Regards Nigel GM8PZR ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Z3812 Diag port data?
Hi Ok, who do we know in the Chinese military? They are *sure* to have several copies …. (Somebody *must* have a copy somewhere ….) Bob On Nov 3, 2014, at 10:26 AM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: Attempted to get access. No go. On Mon, Nov 3, 2014 at 10:02 AM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: Yes indeed you need a login. Will attempt later. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Mon, Nov 3, 2014 at 7:22 AM, Bob Camp kb...@n1k.org wrote: Hi That document would be a very nice thing to see. It might be 4 pages long or it might be 400 pages … Either way, worth digging for. Bob On Nov 3, 2014, at 7:17 AM, Glen Hoag h...@hiwaay.net wrote: I found a reference to the Lucent documentation for the RFTG-u/KS-24361: 401-660-129 Base Station CDMA Reference Frequency Timing Generator (Universal) (RFTG-u) and GPS Antenna System Description, Operation, Installation, and Maintenance I haven't found the documentation itself, though it's probably available to registered users of the Alcatel-Lucent website. --Glen Hoag h...@hiwaay.net ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, diag ports
Hi If the GPS box is the one in control of the survey process (maybe) then the slave box is just watching what’s happening. I would trust the GPS box far more than the slave when it comes down to fine grain GPS goings on. Bob On Nov 3, 2014, at 10:52 AM, Bob Stewart b...@evoria.net wrote: Hi, It's possible that my REF-1 had a software fault. I power-cycled both units, and now I can talk to both. However, I see that there is at least one difference. During the survey period, REF-0 mode only says SURVEY. REF-1 gives the percentage complete as shown on page 1-10 in the Z3801 users guide. So, now I don't know whether or not to trust REF-1. They have just let me know they are shipping the replacement, so this is all going to work out somehow. Bob ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] NPR Story I heard this morning
On Tue, Nov 4, 2014 at 4:28 AM, Tim Shoppa tsho...@gmail.com wrote: (I noticed earlier in the thread, folks writing 10E-16 when I think they meant 1E-16, at least based on the Fortran notation I learned a long time ago. I am living proof, that a good Fortran programmer can write spaghetti code in any language!) Or, like me, be unable to learn any other language again. Variable names starting from I to N are integers, all others are floats. How much simpler do you wish to go? -- Sanjeev Gupta +65 98551208 http://www.linkedin.com/in/ghane ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812A GPSDO system
I've been able to get the GPS unit running standalone by attaching J5-P2 to J5-P8 with a 470 ohm resistor and J5-P3 directly to J5-P8. I am still completely stumped getting any data out of J6 or J8 into a PC serial port. With a scope on the Rx and Tx lines of the RS232 to RS422 cable, I can see commands being sent and can capture the data coming back, but can't get the PC to pick up any of the signals, so I know the unit is not at fault. Hopefully I'll have success with the RS422 to RS232 convertor I've ordered. Anthony -Original Message- From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Roby Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2014 9:12 PM To: Bob Stewart; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812A GPSDO system Yes I did, with XP running in VirtualBox on Win7 with COM1 mapped to the hardware port and a serial cable connected to another cable that does the pin conversion. I also tried it via a USB cable connected to an FTDI serial to USB convertor. I'll play around with it some more this weekend. Anthony Original message From: Bob Stewart b...@evoria.net Date: 2014/10/30 21:04 (GMT-06:00) To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812A GPSDO system Hi Anthony, When you ran Satstat, did you open the serial port? Click Commport-Settings and set it 9600,8,N,1. Then click Commport-Port open. Works OK under XP for me. I haven't tried it under Wine as I'm out of serial ports on the server and have the laptop to use. Bob From: Anthony Roby ar...@antamy.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2014 8:17 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812A GPSDO system I was finally able to get my units to lock and behave as described below. I am still unable to get any data into the PC, either via the RS422 to RS232 hack or through Götz Romahn's modification of the RS422 output. This issue must be to do with the voltage levels. I did connect my scope up to the RS422/1PPS output and was able to capture the serial data coming out of that (see the screenshot at http://goo.gl/87e8GG). I could see two of the numbers incrementing every second, so that must be a timestamp. I have ordered a USB to RS422 cable, so hopefully that will resolve the issue of communicating via J8. Thanks Bob for letting me know that the active J8 is on the unit with the green ON light illuminated. Anthony ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Z3812 Diag port data? RE: time-nuts Digest, Vol 124, Issue 26
Just loaded Satstat and found that it would not work with windoze 7 64 bit. Is there a 64 bit version around or do I dig out an old xp machine - or what program has been found to work? Bill, WA2DVU Cape May --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
The photos I posted at http://goo.gl/87e8GG show the differences between the two boards - there is more to it than just adding a GPS board. The underside has a bunch of additional components beneath the antenna connector. Anthony -Original Message- From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of GandalfG8--- via time-nuts Sent: Monday, November 03, 2014 12:00 PM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812... Hi Arthur Thanks for your further comments, and certainly no need for the sorry. It was your pioneering work that inspired recent efforts to start with, and the confusion over the pin numbers that led Gotz to the, just grounding pins 2 and 3, 2 link solution we have now. Overall, I'd say, not a bad result:-) Good luck with the 10 MHz conversion, I'll probably do that soon as well, after bringing out the 5 Mhz, but for now I'm just letting them cook whilst monitoring the 15MHz. As has been previously commented, aside from the GPS module, there seems to be very little difference between the Ref-0 and Ref-1 modules, and I'm quite tempted to make up my own patch lead, whip out the GPS module from one of my Ref-1 units, and then couple the two Ref-1s together to see how they cope with that:-) Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 03/11/2014 17:13:15 GMT Standard Time, golgarfrinc...@gmail.com writes: GandalfG8 at aol.com GandalfG8 at aol.com Sun Nov 2 09:08:30 EST 2014 wrote: Ooh err, whoops, and oh dear !! Arthur, I've only just had a chance to look at your latest photos, and unless I've really got my wires crossed, if you'll pardon the expression:-), your links on J5 are not shown on pins 2, 10, 12, and 15, but on pins 4, 6, 11, and 13. + Darn-I'm glad someone was paying more attention than I was when I wrote that years ago. Apparently when I was documenting what modifications I had made I just picked up a 15 pin D plug shell to get the numbers instead of looking at the obvious numbers on the RFTG socket connector and those connectors being mirror images have the numbers reversed. I was out geocaching yesterday and didn't catch up on the new posts until this morning so I'm a little late in responding. I also checked to see if I had any other scribbles on the changes I made and found this: If pin 2 is held low the 'ON' LED will flash. A pulse low will turn it on. The RC timer holds pin 2 low to flash for about 6 seconds so you can see it actually happens then pin 2 returns high and the 'ON' LED stays on solid. So apparently some of the parts I added were to just make the light look like they were working correctly (can you spell OCD?) and may not be necessary. As I originally said, this was a hack and I wanted others to duplicate what I had done to see if any of it made sense to them. At least it appears that by adding the circuit I came up with and/or adding jumpers you can get the RFTG-u REF 1 unit to work without the slave unit. I just ordered another RFTG-u REF 1 and will see if I can modify that and get it to output 10Mhz instead of 5Mhz like my original unit. Sorry about the screw up on the numbers. -Arthur ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812A GPSDO system
I've been able to get the GPS unit running standalone by attaching J5-P2 to J5-P8 with a 470 ohm resistor and J5-P3 directly to J5-P8. I am still completely stumped getting any data out of J6 or J8 into a PC serial port. With a scope on the Rx and Tx lines of the RS232 to RS422 cable, I can see commands being sent and can capture the data coming back, but can't get the PC to pick up any of the signals, so I know the unit is not at fault. Hopefully I'll have success with the RS422 to RS232 convertor I've ordered. Anthony -Original Message- From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Roby Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2014 9:12 PM To: Bob Stewart; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812A GPSDO system Yes I did, with XP running in VirtualBox on Win7 with COM1 mapped to the hardware port and a serial cable connected to another cable that does the pin conversion. I also tried it via a USB cable connected to an FTDI serial to USB convertor. I'll play around with it some more this weekend. Anthony Original message From: Bob Stewart b...@evoria.net Date: 2014/10/30 21:04 (GMT-06:00) To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812A GPSDO system Hi Anthony, When you ran Satstat, did you open the serial port? Click Commport-Settings and set it 9600,8,N,1. Then click Commport-Port open. Works OK under XP for me. I haven't tried it under Wine as I'm out of serial ports on the server and have the laptop to use. Bob From: Anthony Roby ar...@antamy.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2014 8:17 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812A GPSDO system I was finally able to get my units to lock and behave as described below. I am still unable to get any data into the PC, either via the RS422 to RS232 hack or through Götz Romahn's modification of the RS422 output. This issue must be to do with the voltage levels. I did connect my scope up to the RS422/1PPS output and was able to capture the serial data coming out of that (see the screenshot at http://goo.gl/87e8GG). I could see two of the numbers incrementing every second, so that must be a timestamp. I have ordered a USB to RS422 cable, so hopefully that will resolve the issue of communicating via J8. Thanks Bob for letting me know that the active J8 is on the unit with the green ON light illuminated. Anthony ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Z3812 Diag port data?
Yes it appears that I am unworthy even though Alcatel Lucent is a company that we partner with. Not giving up yet. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Mon, Nov 3, 2014 at 8:48 PM, Bob Camp kb...@n1k.org wrote: Hi Ok, who do we know in the Chinese military? They are *sure* to have several copies …. (Somebody *must* have a copy somewhere ….) Bob On Nov 3, 2014, at 10:26 AM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: Attempted to get access. No go. On Mon, Nov 3, 2014 at 10:02 AM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: Yes indeed you need a login. Will attempt later. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Mon, Nov 3, 2014 at 7:22 AM, Bob Camp kb...@n1k.org wrote: Hi That document would be a very nice thing to see. It might be 4 pages long or it might be 400 pages … Either way, worth digging for. Bob On Nov 3, 2014, at 7:17 AM, Glen Hoag h...@hiwaay.net wrote: I found a reference to the Lucent documentation for the RFTG-u/KS-24361: 401-660-129 Base Station CDMA Reference Frequency Timing Generator (Universal) (RFTG-u) and GPS Antenna System Description, Operation, Installation, and Maintenance I haven't found the documentation itself, though it's probably available to registered users of the Alcatel-Lucent website. --Glen Hoag h...@hiwaay.net ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 10MHz Rubidium reference source for frequencycounter
Charles, You can always upload time-related material to my Manuals page: www.ko4bb.com/manuals Didier KO4BB On November 3, 2014 2:43:47 PM CST, Charles Steinmetz csteinm...@yandex.com wrote: Tom wrote: As I understand it, his project is to use the high frequency output of a ublox NEO-7M to discipline a MV89 with a James Miller-style analog PLL. * * * (perhaps someone can post an English translation for us) Tom, I have a machine-translated PDF (~2.5MB), but nowhere to put it up. If you have web space for it, please feel free to do so (assuming that Karen does not object). I have reservations about the potential of any Miller-style GPSDO, because using an analog PLL essentially guarantees that the crossover to GPS will be at a tau orders of magnitude lower than it should be -- the Miller unit crosses over about 3 OOM too low (see attached plot, from http://www.leapsecond.com/pages/gpsdo/). The beloved Thunderbolt also crosses over about 2.5 OOM too early, if you use the factory loop settings (id.). But it has an ADPLL with adjustable parameters, so a time nut can tune the loop for best performance with the particular OCXO in the unit. (See http://www.ke5fx.com/tbolt.htm.) Best regards, Charles ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Sent from my Motorola Droid Razr HD 4G LTE wireless tracker while I do other things. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Z3812 Diag port data? RE: time-nuts Digest, Vol 124, Issue 26
Hi I’ve been trying to get ahold of some / any of the sources for these programs. Several of them need to be re-compiled (and possibly re-written) for the modern world of 64 bits and Net (what ever it’s up to).(the rev coming out tomorrow). The whole structure of accessing com ports changed a lot from the early XP days to the way they do it now. As support drops off, the old stuff will get harder and harder to keep running. Much easier (hopefully) to move the software forward. Even Windows 7 is getting into the “old” category. Windows 8 will be superseded next year. I know this is a bit traumatic in the PC world. If you are on a Mac, it all seems pretty slow :) Bob On Nov 3, 2014, at 2:23 PM, Bill Riches bill.ric...@verizon.net wrote: Just loaded Satstat and found that it would not work with windoze 7 64 bit. Is there a 64 bit version around or do I dig out an old xp machine - or what program has been found to work? Bill, WA2DVU Cape May --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
Some of the parts on the underside are to provide power to the antenna. It does not use the GPS rx to do that. I guess they also detect any antenna fault. - Original Message - From: Anthony Roby ar...@antamy.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Monday, November 03, 2014 2:23 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A,Z3811A, Z3812... The photos I posted at http://goo.gl/87e8GG show the differences between the two boards - there is more to it than just adding a GPS board. The underside has a bunch of additional components beneath the antenna connector. Anthony -Original Message- From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of GandalfG8--- via time-nuts Sent: Monday, November 03, 2014 12:00 PM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812... Hi Arthur Thanks for your further comments, and certainly no need for the sorry. It was your pioneering work that inspired recent efforts to start with, and the confusion over the pin numbers that led Gotz to the, just grounding pins 2 and 3, 2 link solution we have now. Overall, I'd say, not a bad result:-) Good luck with the 10 MHz conversion, I'll probably do that soon as well, after bringing out the 5 Mhz, but for now I'm just letting them cook whilst monitoring the 15MHz. As has been previously commented, aside from the GPS module, there seems to be very little difference between the Ref-0 and Ref-1 modules, and I'm quite tempted to make up my own patch lead, whip out the GPS module from one of my Ref-1 units, and then couple the two Ref-1s together to see how they cope with that:-) Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 03/11/2014 17:13:15 GMT Standard Time, golgarfrinc...@gmail.com writes: GandalfG8 at aol.com GandalfG8 at aol.com Sun Nov 2 09:08:30 EST 2014 wrote: Ooh err, whoops, and oh dear !! Arthur, I've only just had a chance to look at your latest photos, and unless I've really got my wires crossed, if you'll pardon the expression:-), your links on J5 are not shown on pins 2, 10, 12, and 15, but on pins 4, 6, 11, and 13. + Darn-I'm glad someone was paying more attention than I was when I wrote that years ago. Apparently when I was documenting what modifications I had made I just picked up a 15 pin D plug shell to get the numbers instead of looking at the obvious numbers on the RFTG socket connector and those connectors being mirror images have the numbers reversed. I was out geocaching yesterday and didn't catch up on the new posts until this morning so I'm a little late in responding. I also checked to see if I had any other scribbles on the changes I made and found this: If pin 2 is held low the 'ON' LED will flash. A pulse low will turn it on. The RC timer holds pin 2 low to flash for about 6 seconds so you can see it actually happens then pin 2 returns high and the 'ON' LED stays on solid. So apparently some of the parts I added were to just make the light look like they were working correctly (can you spell OCD?) and may not be necessary. As I originally said, this was a hack and I wanted others to duplicate what I had done to see if any of it made sense to them. At least it appears that by adding the circuit I came up with and/or adding jumpers you can get the RFTG-u REF 1 unit to work without the slave unit. I just ordered another RFTG-u REF 1 and will see if I can modify that and get it to output 10Mhz instead of 5Mhz like my original unit. Sorry about the screw up on the numbers. -Arthur ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
Hi Feeding antenna bias through the “stuff” on the module does not let you handle shorts and strange stuff as well as an outboard solution. I guess they wanted it built tough. The crazy deal with re-stuffing a slave is that there probably are 7 0402 sized resistors on the board that control some aspect of the changeover. I’m sure that finding six of them will be easy. Finding the 7th never seems to work out for me. I’ve seen a lot of troubleshooting and inspection done on boards far less complex. Without some sort of automated system … it’s a lot of time. Bob On Nov 3, 2014, at 9:49 PM, Tom Miller tmiller11...@verizon.net wrote: Some of the parts on the underside are to provide power to the antenna. It does not use the GPS rx to do that. I guess they also detect any antenna fault. - Original Message - From: Anthony Roby ar...@antamy.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Monday, November 03, 2014 2:23 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A,Z3811A, Z3812... The photos I posted at http://goo.gl/87e8GG show the differences between the two boards - there is more to it than just adding a GPS board. The underside has a bunch of additional components beneath the antenna connector. Anthony -Original Message- From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of GandalfG8--- via time-nuts Sent: Monday, November 03, 2014 12:00 PM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812... Hi Arthur Thanks for your further comments, and certainly no need for the sorry. It was your pioneering work that inspired recent efforts to start with, and the confusion over the pin numbers that led Gotz to the, just grounding pins 2 and 3, 2 link solution we have now. Overall, I'd say, not a bad result:-) Good luck with the 10 MHz conversion, I'll probably do that soon as well, after bringing out the 5 Mhz, but for now I'm just letting them cook whilst monitoring the 15MHz. As has been previously commented, aside from the GPS module, there seems to be very little difference between the Ref-0 and Ref-1 modules, and I'm quite tempted to make up my own patch lead, whip out the GPS module from one of my Ref-1 units, and then couple the two Ref-1s together to see how they cope with that:-) Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 03/11/2014 17:13:15 GMT Standard Time, golgarfrinc...@gmail.com writes: GandalfG8 at aol.com GandalfG8 at aol.com Sun Nov 2 09:08:30 EST 2014 wrote: Ooh err, whoops, and oh dear !! Arthur, I've only just had a chance to look at your latest photos, and unless I've really got my wires crossed, if you'll pardon the expression:-), your links on J5 are not shown on pins 2, 10, 12, and 15, but on pins 4, 6, 11, and 13. + Darn-I'm glad someone was paying more attention than I was when I wrote that years ago. Apparently when I was documenting what modifications I had made I just picked up a 15 pin D plug shell to get the numbers instead of looking at the obvious numbers on the RFTG socket connector and those connectors being mirror images have the numbers reversed. I was out geocaching yesterday and didn't catch up on the new posts until this morning so I'm a little late in responding. I also checked to see if I had any other scribbles on the changes I made and found this: If pin 2 is held low the 'ON' LED will flash. A pulse low will turn it on. The RC timer holds pin 2 low to flash for about 6 seconds so you can see it actually happens then pin 2 returns high and the 'ON' LED stays on solid. So apparently some of the parts I added were to just make the light look like they were working correctly (can you spell OCD?) and may not be necessary. As I originally said, this was a hack and I wanted others to duplicate what I had done to see if any of it made sense to them. At least it appears that by adding the circuit I came up with and/or adding jumpers you can get the RFTG-u REF 1 unit to work without the slave unit. I just ordered another RFTG-u REF 1 and will see if I can modify that and get it to output 10Mhz instead of 5Mhz like my original unit. Sorry about the screw up on the numbers. -Arthur ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
Re: [time-nuts] Z3812 Diag port data? RE: time-nuts Digest, Vol 124, Issue 26
Bob and all: Haven't hookedd upmy units yet. Marlon P Jones (MPJA) has some Real Cheap 15 pin m-m cables that are 1 ft long, might be useful. no clipped pins, whatever they're for. I don't think many of us want to hot-plug that cable? Don Bob Camp My boxes were flakey at first. What I finally figured out was that the interface cable was the weak link. I’d bet that the short pins don’t mate quite well enough with their sockets. After some wiggling all has been ok for a while. -- The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it. -George Bernard Shaw Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL Six Mile Systems LLC 17850 Six Mile Road Huson, MT, 59846 mail: POBox 404 Frenchtown MT 59834-0404 VOX 406-626-4304 Skype: buffler2 www.lightningforensics.com www.sixmilesystems.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Z3812 Diag port data? RE: time-nuts Digest, Vol 124, Issue 26
If they are straight wired pin 1 to pin 1, pin 2 to pin 2, etc, they will not work. - Original Message - From: Don Latham d...@montana.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2014 1:23 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Z3812 Diag port data? RE: time-nuts Digest, Vol 124, Issue 26 Bob and all: Haven't hookedd upmy units yet. Marlon P Jones (MPJA) has some Real Cheap 15 pin m-m cables that are 1 ft long, might be useful. no clipped pins, whatever they're for. I don't think many of us want to hot-plug that cable? Don Bob Camp My boxes were flakey at first. What I finally figured out was that the interface cable was the weak link. I’d bet that the short pins don’t mate quite well enough with their sockets. After some wiggling all has been ok for a while. -- The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it. -George Bernard Shaw Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL Six Mile Systems LLC 17850 Six Mile Road Huson, MT, 59846 mail: POBox 404 Frenchtown MT 59834-0404 VOX 406-626-4304 Skype: buffler2 www.lightningforensics.com www.sixmilesystems.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Hydrogen Maser KIT! Update #1
Eesesh Viton is really bad stuff to play with. When it burns, even a little, it releases HF, and will corrode your bones if you handle it. That said, I love viton O-rings for lots of weird chemicals. I didn't know it was sensitive to acetone, and would have bet it wasn't... learn something new every day. -Chuck Harris Mark Sims wrote: I wonder how well Viton would work? Viton is soluble in acetone and should make coating much easier. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
