[time-nuts] WTB: OCXO for Fury

[Don@True-Cal]

Season Greetings to all,

 

I have a Jackson Labs Fury with off-board connectors for the oscillator
which I would like to change it to be self-contained with an on-board OCXO.
Does anyone have an MTI Series 270, 241 or 230 that they would like to sell.
Comments welcome on any other well behaved oscillator model that might fit
on the Fury board. I've used several HP oscillators over time and never been
really happy with the combination compared to a TB with MV89A and also
looking to simplify the Fury arrangement and not have to have separate
mounting and extra 24V for the OCXO.

 

Regards,

Don

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Re: [time-nuts] Question on LH

[Don@True-Cal]

So some more specific detail in how I am running LH with multiple TBs. I am 
actually running three instances of LH all with unique command line input for 
each TB and each with a different COM port specified. The three TBs are running 
from the same antenna using a Symmetricom 5853A 4-way splitter. One of the TBs 
is standard while the other two have MV89A oscillators. All three TBs can 
accept unique commands and I continuously run the three instances of LH on a 
dedicated laptop running Win10. I moved my antenna recently so I started the 
precision antenna survey on the two TBs with the MV89A oscillators. They are 
each about 40% done and I wanted to understand better what to do at the 
conclusion of the run. It is not really a question concerning multiple TBs 
running simultaneous but my question is rather I have to manually enter 
anything or is the precision coordinates entered automatically at the end of 
the run. In my case, each TB will act as if it were running alone. From Chris's 
expl
 anation, it sounds like everything is automatic at the end of the run and the 
new derived double-precision average is enter automatically.

Don

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Mark Sims
Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2016 2:33 PM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] Question on LH

No, the SL keyboard command on TSIP receivers should do the 
"multiple-single-point-surveys-until-it-gets-close" thing to set the 
lat/lon/alt to better than single precision floating point accuracy. .

The advantage of doing a full 48-hour survey is that the surveyed position was 
calculated by the receiver and might have characteristics that are unique to 
that receivers' hardware.

-

> So need to do two long surveys then - what a pain ...
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[time-nuts] Question on LH

[Don@True-Cal]

I'm using the latest version of LH connected to two Thunderbolts. Whenever I
do a precision 48-hour antenna survey, I'm confused on if the derived best
coordinates are automatically loaded into the Lat & Lon registers when it
completes. What is the procedure at the completion of the precision survey
or is it completely automatic?

 

Thanks,

Don

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Re: [time-nuts] SR620 Problem

[Don@True-Cal]

Sure, my original post ask for anyone in the US as I live in Springfield 
Missouri but I will be happy to ship anywhere in the states. I have the 
complete schematics for the unit. Was hoping to find someone specializing in 
SRS equipment or already having repair experience with the SR620. 

Regards,
Don

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Tom Miller
Sent: Monday, August 29, 2016 4:37 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement <time-nuts@febo.com>
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] SR620 Problem

You might say where you are. Maybe someone lives close that can assist you.

Regards,
Tom

- Original Message - 
From: "Don@True-Cal" <truecalservi...@gmail.com>
To: "'Time Nuts Group'" <time-nuts@febo.com>
Sent: Monday, August 29, 2016 5:17 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] SR620 Problem


> Hello All,
>
>
>
> Sorry if this is a repeat but not showing up in my sent mail. Changed the
> list address slightly.
>
>
>
> I'm looking for someone that has repair experience on the SR620 TIC. I 
> have
> a failed unit that has previously worked perfectly for many years while
> running continuously on my lab bench. The failure occurred after a very
> dirty mains power failure during a storm. There was no other evidence of a
> severe lightning strike so I suspect just a major power line glitch. I 
> have
> a second unit so time to repair is not critical. I have checked and
> confirmed all of the power supplies and eliminated all of the easy fix
> scenarios already. The major symptom is absolutely no display of 
> indicators
> or readout (unit looks to be off), -DROPOUT form the PS is ok. I believe 
> the
> loss of LED and display is from the processor stopped U131B flop. I don't
> have sufficient confidence, let alone spare IC to delve into the processor
> chain. Is there someone in the US with this experience that I can send 
> this
> unit to for repair. Being retired and all this just being a major hobby
> makes repair cost a big concern.
>
>
>
> Regards.
>
> Don J.
>
>
>
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[time-nuts] SR620 Problem

[Don@True-Cal]

Hello All,

 

Sorry if this is a repeat but not showing up in my sent mail. Changed the
list address slightly.

 

I'm looking for someone that has repair experience on the SR620 TIC. I have
a failed unit that has previously worked perfectly for many years while
running continuously on my lab bench. The failure occurred after a very
dirty mains power failure during a storm. There was no other evidence of a
severe lightning strike so I suspect just a major power line glitch. I have
a second unit so time to repair is not critical. I have checked and
confirmed all of the power supplies and eliminated all of the easy fix
scenarios already. The major symptom is absolutely no display of indicators
or readout (unit looks to be off), -DROPOUT form the PS is ok. I believe the
loss of LED and display is from the processor stopped U131B flop. I don't
have sufficient confidence, let alone spare IC to delve into the processor
chain. Is there someone in the US with this experience that I can send this
unit to for repair. Being retired and all this just being a major hobby
makes repair cost a big concern.

 

Regards.

Don J.

 

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Re: [time-nuts] SR620 testing

[Don@True-Cal]

Guys,

The SR620 X/Y feature is extremely valuable for my time lab. You probably need 
to rethink the feature after setting up a nice X/Y display and experimenting 
with the different display features. I use an Rb and distribution amp for my 
lab 10MHz standard which feeds the external ref input of the SR620. When the 
TIC is not being used for other things, it has a Thunderbolt with a double-oven 
OCXO (TC=1200) connected to one channel and the 10MHz ref to the other 
measuring zero-crossing time difference. Triggering with the TIC 1KHz output 
and using 1E5 samples sizes makes the horizontal axis approximately 7-hours 
while the vertical axis is set for 20ns/div allowing visibility of plus/minus 
50ns or the whole 100ns phase cycle of the 10MHz after a 50ns reference is set. 
I added an extremely fine external EFC to my Rb reference and this allows me to 
make fine enough ref frequency changes to strive for zero-slope displays of 
many hours and even days. The 20ns/div typically reveals plus/minus 10
 ns GPS bumps but the overall slope over many hours is what's important. You 
could do this through the GPIB but you are tying up a lot more resources during 
the extended runs. My Tektronix 606B display cost me $50 years ago. Take my 
word, it's worth checking out - don't write off the X/Y outputs. Pictures on 
request or can someone give me an upload site.

Don

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Bob Camp
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2016 6:13 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] SR620 testing

Hi

You may have cleaned up a dirty pot wiper as well …

The SR620 has X/Y outputs? Who knew?  … that’s how often that feature gets used 
around here.

Bob

> On Feb 23, 2016, at 12:14 AM, Joseph Gray  wrote:
> 
> Ignore the problem with EXT trigger. I did a factory reset and now it 
> is working. I should have thought to reset it to begin with.
> 
> Joe Gray
> W5JG
> 
> 
> On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 8:14 PM, Joseph Gray  wrote:
>> Finally got an SR620 at a decent price. I'm going through the 
>> Functional Tests and the Performance Tests now. So far, I have two 
>> anomalies.
>> 
>> Pg 62 Functional Test - EXT input. When I vary the EXT trigger knob, 
>> I don't get the trigger LED, except that it flashes briefly at one 
>> spot as I move the knob from high to low.
>> 
>> XY outputs - text at the top is slanted and text near the middle 
>> right is overlaid. I don't know if I care about this, as I am 
>> unlikely to use this feature.
>> 
>> I can't test the printer port. No Epson printer. I probably don't 
>> care about this, either.
>> 
>> Pg 63 Performance Test - Timebase frequency is 15 Hz high. I will adjust 
>> later.
>> 
>> Timebase accuracy +/- 0.0035 Hz passes.
>> 
>> This is far as I have gotten. After I get a bite of dinner, I will proceed.
>> 
>> The EXT trigger test not working worries me. Perhaps I am doing something 
>> wrong?
>> 
>> 
>> Joe Gray
>> W5JG
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Re: [time-nuts] MTI 260-0624-D OCXO

[Don@True-Cal]

It always helps to know a little about the specific design of the temp control 
circuit but let's say counter clockwise CCW reduces the internal oven temp. 
This can be confirmed by letting the temp and frequency stabilize. Using a 
counter with good resolution monitoring the output frequency, turn the pot CCW 
several turns and the frequency should slowly decrease a few cycles (typically 
positive temp coefficient) as the oven cools. Now slowly turn the pot CW about 
1/2 turn on each increment watching the frequency slowly increase due to the 
internal crystal oven slowly getting hotter. Eventually, the frequency will 
peak and further CW turning of the pot will start to lower the frequency. 
That's why it called the turn-over temperature. Now set the pot in the middle 
of two equal frequency points on either side of the frequency peak. Hopefully 
you will see a broad frequency peak allowing for a little more margin in the 
oven temperature. All you need to monitor is the output frequency. This
  process can be a little faster if you have some type of external analog oven 
temperature indication but it not necessary.

Don

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of 
time...@metachaos.net
Sent: Friday, February 19, 2016 9:02 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] MTI 260-0624-D OCXO

I have just about finished trashing this OCXO. I was able to run it outside of 
its case, and I have repaired the case, but I was unable to reinstall it into 
the case because I have to patch it on both the top and bottom. I could, 
perhaps, put it into a larger case and might do that later. For now, I will 
keep it as a potential future resource. The SC crystal is worth that much - 
they aren't cheap and nothing wrong with that. Also, just the bottom circuit 
board has problems, possibly another bad unit could be used for parts.

That leaves one final question. The suggestion that the POT adjusts the 
temperature set point for the crystal sounds very reasonable. It clearly does 
not significantly affect the frequency. At least, not in the range that would 
allow for tuning the output frequency.

However, the POT is clearly designed to be adjusted AFTER everything is 
assembled because it is intended to be adjusted through the hole in the case.
That assumes some sort of feedback. What feedback? What can it affect on the 
available five pins that would let you know when the temperature is set 
correctly? If it is not for setting the temperature, and not for setting the 
frequency, what is it for? Perhaps output voltage level? I would have to get it 
working again, but I could test that. Any ideas?


Mike

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Re: [time-nuts] EZGPIB Question

[Don@True-Cal]

Yes, it has full support in the latest NI 488.2 v3.1.1 drivers and tools
package. From there you can run many application level programs that support
the NI 488.2 API, including the VISA interface. I use Agilent VEE primarily
and I always like to use EZGPIB (thanks Ulrich, great program) for quick
easy projects that I have not developed a VEE program for. Don't use
LabView, too complicated and too dependent on narrow range of O/S version.

I love the NI GPIB-ENET/100 and is why I bought the second one and I
recommend it highly. For many years, I ran my first controller with 14-15
instruments spread out a total of about 40-feet of bus with the controller
near the middle - never a problem. I don't really have any more instruments
now but after a move (retired), my home lab is separated in a
design/prototype area and an electrical/temperature calibration area. The
two separate controllers facilitate these two distinctive areas better than
a long (no lump load) bus run between the two areas. A side advantage is
better ground loop isolation between the two separate areas.

Ulrich, I have a NI GPIB-USB-A controller that I seldom use. You are welcome
to borrow it (could probably be talked out of it) if it would help/motivate
you on the expansion of the EZGPIB DLL.

Don

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of paul swed
Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2013 2:21 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] EZGPIB Question

Thanks everyone. I have some digging to do I see. Would love to use it on a
more modern system.
Regards
Paul.


On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 1:53 PM, John Miles j...@miles.io wrote:

  -Original Message-
  From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts- 
  boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Lizeth Norman
  Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2013 8:43 AM
  To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
  Subject: Re: [time-nuts] EZGPIB Question
 
  The programming of the ENET/100 has to be done with an older ver of 
  Labview
  (7.1 IIRC), something that has no later than win 2k as an operating
 system.
  I had one of these and went through the setup of the ip address. 
  Once it worked, it was like a hardware controller. (using LV 8.0)

 No personal experience, but apparently it can be done with a 
 third-party utility as well.  Search http://www.ke5fx.com/gpib/faq.htm 
 for the term GPIB-ENET and  you'll (eventually) find W2HX's
instructions.

 -- john, KE5FX
 Miles Design LLC


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[time-nuts] EZGPIB Question

[Don@True-Cal]

Hello All,

I recently added a second NI GPIB-ENET/100 to my instrumentation lab. This
addition was a better approach than extending a single GPIB bus into two
separate lab areas separated by ~30-feet. This new setup is working well but
however gives me two GPIB bus segments named GPIB0::xx and GPIB1::xx. I
have always just been able to address the simple GPIB device address xx in
EZGPIB code like:
const HP3458=24;
SR620=16;

Now these two devices are on different segments and have the names GPIB0::16
and GPIB1::24. I can talk to any device on the GPIB0 segment by just using
the simple device address as always, but what code syntax do I have to add
to address devices on the GPIB1 segment. I have not been successful finding
any reference to this GPIB addressing issue.

Thanks...
Don


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Re: [time-nuts] Morion MV89 output level?

[Don @ True-Cal]

I've tried both the MV89a and the Oscilloquartz 8663 (I think UCT is the same 
or very close) with the Thunderbolt. The Oscilloquartz does not fit any of the 
OCXO thru-hole combinations but the MV89a does fit one of the OCXO variations 
that TB accommodates. That makes for a very clean/compact replacement for the 
standard TB oscillator. You have to be s careful when wiring an OCXO 
off-board for ground bounce and other minute disturbances to the EFC. The MV89a 
as a TB on-board replacement is the only way I could get superb PPT stability 
out to TC=1000 sec. Even without active disciplining, either oscillator has 
very good long-term stability.

I have a related question, probably directed to Said, on the Fury OEM board. 
The MV89a seems to work ok at 10.5 V and draws ~970ma on warm-up, settling out 
at ~350ma at this lower supply voltage. Is that initial current draw excessive 
for the Fury OCXO supply? I would like to use the on-board supply so the 
current draw can provide the feedback for TEMPCO. I'm using NTC thermistors 
strapped to the OCXO case otherwise like I have done with an 10811. The current 
approach would seem much better correlated.

Regards...
Don
  - Original Message - 
  From: John Miles 
  To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' 
  Sent: Friday, February 10, 2012 3:28 AM
  Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Morion MV89 output level?


   Did you ever run any tests on those UCT double oven OCXOs?   

  Only to the extent of running a short (10-minute) HDEV test after a ~2 hour
  warmup, to see if it was capable of anything interesting near t=10s to
  t=30s.  It showed about 2E-12, and the PN was nothing special, so I didn't
  do anything else with it.  I'll leave one running for a few days and try it.


  I've found
   them to be freaky-stable long term.   I have retrofitted a lot of Tek
   DC510/5010 counters with them and after over two years,  the last digit is
   still right on.

  They would probably be good for homebrew GPSDOs, given their small size.
  Perhaps a Thunderbolt refit.

  -- john



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[time-nuts] Lady Heather with older f/w TB

[Don @ True-Cal]

LH  TB experts,

I have three Thunderbolts bought over several years. My older unit Mfg: 
29-Sept-2000 has f/w 2.12 and besides working flawlessly providing 10Mhz and 
PPS references, one annoying issue is that this unit has three LH (ver. 3.00 
beta) display fields that are obviously not displaying right. LH displays TC = 
0.0, Damp = 0.000 and Gain = -3.500 (default for the origanal Trimble 
oscillator). The Gain field is displayed in yellow. The actual values I use, 
and that are stored, are TC = 500, Damp = 1.0 and Gain = +1.45 for a Morion 
MV89A. Tboltmon utility works just fine, and is how I have to set or observe 
these fields.

Has anyone seen this behavior and is there a fix or workaround . I have to 
switch utilities if I need to adjust these fields. I would like to use the 
oscillator autotune (A), but LH does not set these fields either. I suspect a 
bit field offset difference between TB f/w 2.12  3.00 for these fields.

Regards...
Don
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Re: [time-nuts] Cycling of Peltier junction

[Don @ True-Cal]

Jerome,

All of the modern temperature calibration dry-wells that support both 
lower-than-ambient and higher-than-ambient set points, within the same well 
cavity, do so by changing the current direction through (typically) several 
Peltier junctions attached to a massive aluminum block. See Hart Scientific 
(Fluke) 9170  9171 Metrology Dry-Well Calibrators. The low and high set point 
temperature ranges are much more limited than say a resistive element type that 
would extent upward 600-1000 C due to the limitation of the Peltier junction.
 
I routinely go from 0.0C to 100C (and back) in typical calibration procedures 
and there is no intentional current limiting ramp necessary other than staying 
within the power envelope of the device.
 
You only need to make sure that thermal conduction on both sides on the 
junction 
device is adequately. In your case, forced air cooled heatsink on one side and 
a 
liquid heat exchanger on the other. With good design, you should be able to 
achieve a liquid coolant temperature range of -10C to +100C very easily. A good 
PID controller, home brew or a Watlow off ebay, will give you very nice 
set-point control and stability. Been there, done that.
 Regards...
Don 





From: Jerome Peters jpet...@nvidia.com
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Thu, September 9, 2010 2:41:52 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] Cycling of Peltier junction

Does anybody know about using the same Peltier junction for both heating and 
cooling?
I'm concerned about thermal/mechanical shock when changing the polarity 
back-n-forth between hot and cold.  Maybe there needs to be a controlled ramp, 
if so then how do I figure out the rate?

Why:
I'm in the process of building a small environmental chamber for my home lab. 
The volume is ~30 liter, target temp range of 0C to 60C.  For the cooling side 
I 
am using water circulation (radiator, pump, reservoir  water block) and 
Peltier 
junctions.  At first I was planning to have two separate systems, one for 
heating and one for cooling, but then I got to thinking that using just the 
water and Peltier could be used for both.  I will be using a PID for temp 
control, and two TEC1-12726 Peltier Qcmax(w)= ~240 △T =0j


Regards,
Jerome
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Re: [time-nuts] Fury - Rubidium

[Don @ True-Cal]

Said,

I would like to take advantage of the Fury TempCo capabilities when using an 
Rb. I have been looking for the thru-hole pad which you say is next to C67 but 
I can't find a C67. Consider that I am over 60 and eyesight is challenged but I 
have found C68 with nearby pads. Can you give us some additional components 
nearby to zero in on this allusive component. Thanks!

Regards...
Don
  - Original Message - 
  From: saidj...@aol.com 
  To: time-nuts@febo.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2010 9:07 PM
  Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Fury - Rubidium


  Hi Scott,
   
  yes the pads are there, you can use the through-hole pad right next to C67  
  and a standard ground pad for the Thermistor. There will be 10.5V across  
  the thermistor. Connect the thermistor to your Rb case.
   
  You should be able to connect two 10K Thermistors in parallel to get a good 
   reading without excessive self-heating of the thermistors, while 
  generating  enough current through them that can be measured by the ADC.
   
  You can check the thermistor current using the meas? command. If the  
  thermistor is not drawing enough current for the ADC, then simply place a 
2.2K  
  resistor in parallel to it.
   
  The software needs to be enabled to support measuring and applying a tempco 
   correction, by default I think the boards were shipped with only aging  
  compensation enabled.
   
  Us the following command to enable tempco correction:
   
  serv:tas 2,288,600,50,0.05
   
  Check the settings with:
   
  serv:tas?
   
  The first number is the mode (0 is all off, 1 is aging only, 2 is aging and 
   tempco correction). The second number is the memory usage, 288 points in 
  this  case. The third number is the sensing frequency in seconds, so 10 
  minute  intervals in this example. 288 points * 10 minutes is 48 hours of 
memory. 
  The  fourth number is the maximum phase offset allowed for a sense point, 
  in this  case +/-50ns. The last item is the required frequency error  
  estimate for a sense point, in this case +/-0.05ppb.
   
  bye,
  Said
   
   
   
   
  In a message dated 7/27/2010 17:07:31 Pacific Daylight Time, sm...@intt.net 
   writes:

  Said,  Did the OEM units (from way back) ship with an open pad for  the 
  thermistor?  I thought that wouldn't work unless it was drawing  oven 
  current from the Fury.  It would be neat to add some tempco into  the mix 
  instead of just trying to shield it from HVAC cycling.  The  particular 
  LPRO-101 that I'm using now, doesn't seem to be as sensitive as  others 
  to temp.  I was using a different LPRO originally and when I  plotted the 
  Fury board temp sensor with GPSCON you could see the impact of  the 
  cycling, now with this one you would be hard pressed to pick it out.  
  The X72 was very sensitive to temp changes, EFC tracked the temp quite  
  well.


  Scott
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Re: [time-nuts] Fury - Rubidium

[Don @ True-Cal]

My experience is very similar to Scott's. I ran many hours with both an 
LPRO-101 
and FE-5680A. The disciplining behavior and Fury settings were the same for 
either Rb. My biggest disappointment was the recovery time due to various 
common 
or intentional bumps or especially, after power loss. I also had to let the 
system settle in for a week before acceptable tracking smoothed out. Any long 
term slope to the EFC trace (gpscon) caused excessive hunting and this didn't 
settle down until the Rb was VERY stable. My gpscon TI and stddev was virtually 
the same as Scott's if I had EFCS set to 1.0 to 1.5 but recovery was 
unacceptable (maybe 24-hours) so I usually ran at 2.0 or 3.0 with 
slight degrading of stddev to around 3.2. This EFCS setting allowed a much 
better settling time around 3-hours.
 
DACG= 1000
EFCS = 2 to 3
EFCD = 50 (25 allows little better settling time)
PHASECO = 15 (I favor 10 Mhz over PPS)
 Regards...
Don 





From: Scott Mace sm...@intt.net
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Tue, July 27, 2010 10:41:16 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Fury - Rubidium

I have done this with several LPRO-101, X72, and a FRS-C.  The FRS-C that I 
used 
was out of a Lucent RFG-RB box.  It had a hot TTL output that was causing 
issues 
with the Fury,  The level was the problem, not the ttl.  The EFC was 
hypersensitive, and it took a long time for the unit to settle down before the 
Fury would handle it.  Same thing with the LPRO, and X72, you have to wait for 
it settle for a week or so before it starts to work well if it's been off for a 
long time.  The X72 was by far the worst, and it would jump from time to time, 
which would make the fury unhappy.  I didn't have a chassis that would fit the 
FRS-C and the fury, so I just went back to the LPRO.  The lpro-101 has been the 
best so far.  I put everything in a 1U chassis and placed it in the bottom of 
my 
rack away from the AC vent.

This is what I use with the LPRO-101.

dac gain: 1000
efc scale: 1.30
efc damping: 35
ocxo slope: positive
phaseco: 35

I test it by changing the antenna delay.  It should recover within a reasonable 
time.  Bumping the coarsedac is typically too much change and takes longer to 
recover.  I run it with a 20ns offset to my z3801a, and they always stay within 
20ns of other.

I've had the Fury running for about 5400 hours since the last reboot, running 
v1.21 firmware.  It stays within +-10ns,  usually it's between +-5ns.  Over 
24hrs, gpscon reports TI average 0.15 or so and stddev around 2.5ns.

    Scott

On 7/27/2010 9:07 AM, Brian Kirby wrote:
 Has anybody on the list interfaced a Fury GPS controller to a rubidium ?
 
 If you have, please advise the rubidium are using and your SERV:DACG ,
 SERV:EFCS , and SERV:EFCD settings.
 
 I am working with a FRS-C at the moment and I have not found the right
 combination to get a stable lock.
 
 Thanks - Brian KD4FM
 
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Re: [time-nuts] HP 3458A schematic/service manual request

[Don @ True-Cal]

Jeff,

Here are the current part numbers and price for the major assemblies of the 
3458A. The A1 board is the most complex and expensive and requires complete 
calibration after replacement or service. As you can see, the A1 module cost is 
$2000. Better plan! Agilent will repair (fixed rate) which includes bringing 
everything up to current ECN, fully margin test, and provide certified 
calibration for ~$2500. The resultant product is a world class DMM and well 
worth the investment.

Regards...
Don


HP 3458A DMM

03458-66501  Rev D  A1 DC Circuitry
  Orderable $2,111

03458-66502  Rev E  A2 AC Circuitry
  Orderable $1,223

03458-69503  Rev C  A3 A/D Converter  Inguard Logic
  Orderable replacement 03458-66513 $1,009 - $201

03458-66504  Rev B  A4 Inguard Power Supply
  Orderable $205

03458-66505  Rev A  A5 Outguard Controller
ROMs 03458-88870 thru 5  Rev 7  REV? 7,1
SRAM DS1230Y-150  (2 ea.)
   DS1220Y-150
  Refurbished $595  **upgrade to opt-001 03458-69515 $659

03458-66506  Rev A  A6 Outguard Power Supply
  Refurbished $595 if available
  Replacement 03458-66516 $666

03458-66509  Rev A  A9 DC Reference
  Orderable $416   **upgrade to opt-002 03458-80003 $667

  - Original Message - 
  From: Robert Benward 
  To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
  Sent: Monday, June 07, 2010 8:27 PM
  Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 3458A schematic/service manual request


  Jeff,
  Based on the completed prices on Ebay, you may want to consider getting it 
repaired by Agilent.  The cheapest on Ebay 
  was $2000, and it went up from there.  I can also give you a few cal labs 
that do repairs as well.

  Bob


  - Original Message - 
  From: Robert Benward rbenw...@verizon.net
  To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
time-nuts@febo.com
  Sent: Monday, June 07, 2010 8:54 PM
  Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 3458A schematic/service manual request


   Hi Jeff,
   I checked the Agilent website, and I assume you did also.  There is no 
schematic to be had.  What I have discovered 
   with Agilent, is that certain instruments are made by particular divisions. 
 Some of those divisions consider those 
   schematics to be proprietary and they will not release them now, not in the 
near future, and may never be released.  I 
   ran across this with an LCR meter I bought on EBAY.  I tried to get 
schematics, as I thought he repair would be 
   relatively simple.  It passed self test, appeared functional, but very 
erratic.  I thought the problem would be within 
   the first few components near the front end.
  
   I called the factory more than once, but the line I got was exactly what I 
described above.  I looked everywhere, but 
   to no avail.  I hope you have better luck than I did.  Maybe you can find a 
parts unit on EBAY cheap.
  
   Bob
  
  
  
   - Original Message - 
   From: jeffh...@comcast.net
   To: time-nuts@febo.com
   Sent: Monday, June 07, 2010 7:26 PM
   Subject: [time-nuts] HP 3458A schematic/service manual request
  
  
  
  
  
  
   Hi,
  
  
  
   I picked up a non-working 3458A at a swapmeet this weekend.
  
   It has err 202 Hardware Failure : Slave test-convergance.
  
  
  
   Assembly-Level Repair Manual says its a problem on the A1 board
  
  
  
   Does anyone have a schematic/service manual for this?
  
  
  
   Thanks
  
   Jeff
  
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Re: [time-nuts] Tektronix TM500 Series Help

[Don @ True-Cal]

Thanks everyone for some good information. Here is what I know for sure from 
testing, observation and more searching.

1) The devices in any of my TM mainframes are NOT Darlingtons.
2) The actual Q12 device in my TM501 is stamped SJE924 (Tek PN 151-0349-00)

These two facts seem contradictory with copied Motorola Data Sheet info but I 
going with what I see in front of me.

3) Another source also cross referenced the MJE2801 as a substitute for the 
SJE924 (NPN) and a MJE2901 for the SJE925 (PNP).

These substitutes will be my next try but I don't have either one so will have 
to order them. I still don't know why the MJE3055 didn't work as it is not that 
different from the MJE2801 in this application.

The substitute MJE... devices come as TO-220 (BCE) with T suffix as in 
MJE2x01T. This is the more common and readily available version. If I can't 
find a good source for the TO-127 MJE2801 (ECB) version, I will have to mount 
it upside down.

Regards...
Don


  - Original Message - 
  From: Don Latham 
  To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
  Sent: Sunday, January 03, 2010 3:28 PM
  Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Tektronix TM500 Series Help


  These external transistors are shown on the PS503 as single transistors,
  and they are driven by a single stage transistor from an op amp.The
  external pass transistors for each plug-in could use NTE182 (NPN) and
  NTE183(PNP). IMHO, the hfe of the NTE devices will be entirely adequate,
  and they're cheap as well. I think I used one of these to repair a 500
  series p/s in the past. It's worth a try.
  Don


  Charles P. Steinmetz
   Mark wrote:
  
  The mainframe power transistors are NOT darlingtons.  They are plain
  NPN/PNP power transistors with non-standard pinouts.
  
   The TO-127 pinout is ECB -- most other plastic power transistor
   packages are BCE.
  
   I just pulled the cover off a TM503, and the 151-0349-00 (and
   151-0373-00) devices in it are NOT darlingtons.
  
   At least some Tek manuals say the 151-0349-00 devices are SJE924s,
   and the information I have on those (which I copied from a now long
   lost Motorola databook of the era) indicates that they are
   darlingtons (there is some corroboration for this on the web, but I
   have not found a web datasheet).  However, a current source of Tek
   parts (see below) says that its 151-0349-00 devices are MJE2801s,
   which I believe are not darlingtons.  So, either Tek was incorrect in
   stating that P/N 151-0349-00 = SJE924, or the Motorola datasheet I
   copied from was wrong that SJE924s are darlingtons, or I copied
   wrong.  (Surely it couldn't be the third?   ;-)   In any case, it
   does not appear that the transistors in TM5xx frames are darlingtons.
  
   If anyone wants original form factor TO-127 transistors (presumably
   Tek old stock, marked 034900), they are available from:
  
   http://www.sphere.bc.ca/test/tek-parts/tekparts2.html
  
   Best regards,
  
   Charles
  
  
  
  
  
  
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  -- 
  Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
  Six Mile Systems LLP
  17850 Six Mile Road
  POB 134
  Huson, MT, 59846
  VOX 406-626-4304
  www.lightningforensics.com
  www.sixmilesystems.com


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[time-nuts] Tektronix TM500 Series Help

[Don @ True-Cal]

Happy New Year to all!

In working on my TM501 which serves as the power supply for my AM503B current 
probe, I had to dismount the 2 series pass transistors from the TM case (heat 
sink). After repair (filter caps) and during remounting the circuit board, Q12 
transistor TO-127 case fractured while bending the leads. This transistor is 
one of the two series pass transistors that some TM-Series modules use as 
external mounted power devices. These two transistors are used mostly with 
PSxxx power supply modules. They are not actually used as active components of 
the TM501 and fortunately for me, not used with the AM503B module so I am up 
and running again. I would like to fix this situation so I could use this TM501 
with any/all modules.

The manual (and device) says Q12 is an NPN, SI, Selected, TO-127 SJE924. For 
completeness, the complementary Q10 is a PNP, SI, TO-127 SJE925. These 
transistors types are the same across any TM-Series mainframe.

I can't find any SJE or MJE 9xx reference. Does anyone have a cross reference 
or know of a substitute device for these transistors? I tried a MJE3055 which 
is very general purpose and it does not work with a PS503A power supply module. 
This, plus the word Selected in the manual, says to me that something (Hfe?) 
must be fairly critical. Another alternative is someone with a junker TM 
mainframe that would be willing to pull one or both of these transistors.

Regards...
Don
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Re: [time-nuts] Tektronix TM500 Series Help

[Don @ True-Cal]

No, MJE3055T is a TO-220 (BCE) but the MJE3055 (or in my case JE3055) is a 
TO-127 (ECB) pinout.
  - Original Message - 
  From: David C. Partridge 
  To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' 
  Sent: Saturday, January 02, 2010 4:22 PM
  Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Tektronix TM500 Series Help


  Isn't the pinout of the MJE3055 (BCE) different from the SJE924 (ECB).

  Dave 

  -Original Message-
  From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
  Behalf Of Don @ True-Cal
  Sent: 02 January 2010 20:33
  To: time-nuts@febo.com
  Subject: [time-nuts] Tektronix TM500 Series Help

  Happy New Year to all!

  In working on my TM501 which serves as the power supply for my AM503B
  current probe, I had to dismount the 2 series pass transistors from the TM
  case (heat sink). After repair (filter caps) and during remounting the
  circuit board, Q12 transistor TO-127 case fractured while bending the leads.
  This transistor is one of the two series pass transistors that some
  TM-Series modules use as external mounted power devices. These two
  transistors are used mostly with PSxxx power supply modules. They are not
  actually used as active components of the TM501 and fortunately for me, not
  used with the AM503B module so I am up and running again. I would like to
  fix this situation so I could use this TM501 with any/all modules.

  The manual (and device) says Q12 is an NPN, SI, Selected, TO-127 SJE924. For
  completeness, the complementary Q10 is a PNP, SI, TO-127 SJE925. These
  transistors types are the same across any TM-Series mainframe.

  I can't find any SJE or MJE 9xx reference. Does anyone have a cross
  reference or know of a substitute device for these transistors? I tried a
  MJE3055 which is very general purpose and it does not work with a PS503A
  power supply module. This, plus the word Selected in the manual, says to
  me that something (Hfe?) must be fairly critical. Another alternative is
  someone with a junker TM mainframe that would be willing to pull one or both
  of these transistors.

  Regards...
  Don
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Re: [time-nuts] TADD-1 Documentation Error

[Don @ True-Cal]

John,

Thought I would ride alond on this email thread and ask about my TAPR 
TADD-1, Enclosure and TB order from back in June. At that time, shipping was 
targeted for Sept.

Order under Don Johnson, True-Cal
 Regards...
Don 





From: John Ackermann j...@febo.com
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 6:34:16 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] TADD-1 Documentation Error

Thanks!  That's the first time that's been noted in the years since the docs 
were written. :-)

John


Brian Kirby said the following on 09/17/2009 05:31 PM:
 John - N8UR
 
 On page 13; titled Initial Test -- 2; there is a documentation error in the 
 middle section; Integrated Circuit Installation -- 2.
 
 Install a MAX477 IC at IC2, IC2, IC3, IC4, IC5, IC6, IC7
 
 Should start with IC1.
 
 Brian - KD4FM
 
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Re: [time-nuts] How do time-nuts measure phase noise?

[Don @ True-Cal]

Joe,

I have the 8560E analyzer with the 85671A utility. I find the utility to be 
fairly slow in taking the numerous measurements and processing the results. The 
PN program from KE5FX EZGPIB does this in about 1/4 the time and has more post 
processing display options. You do need a computer with GPIB access to the 
analyzer but my opinion is this is a much preferred method unless portability 
is needed.

BTW, all of John's software in the EZGPIB kit is first class. The 7470A 
emulator also works great on 8560 series printouts.

Regards...
Don

  - Original Message - 
  From: J. L. Trantham 
  To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' 
  Sent: Monday, August 17, 2009 9:22 AM
  Subject: Re: [time-nuts] How do time-nuts measure phase noise?


  Can anyone provide any information on the usefulness of the Phase Noise
  Utility program (85671A) for the HP 8560 series Spectrum Analyzers?

  Thanks in advance,

  Joe

  -Original Message-
  From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
  Behalf Of Bruce Griffiths
  Sent: Monday, August 17, 2009 7:13 AM
  To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
  Subject: Re: [time-nuts] How do time-nuts measure phase noise?


  Some have commercial phase noise measurement systems like Symmetricoms
  5115A, 5120A. 5125A. Some have older HP phase noise measurement systems like
  the 3048A etc. The rest of us have to build our own systems based around
  sound cards or surplus spectrum analysers together with the necessary
  mixers, low noise amplifiers etc.

  Unless your sources are very noisy you wont be able to measure their phase
  noise with just a selective voltmeter or even an RF spectrum analyser. If
  you cant build it, then you need to acquire something like the HP3048 or the
  NIST phase noise measurement box currently on ebay.(Item:
  260423038423)

  Bruce


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Re: [time-nuts] How do time-nuts measure phase noise?

[Don @ True-Cal]

Uh-Oh, yes I mixed up John's Tool Kit name with Ulrich's software. Sorry to 
both. I now see a clear disadvantage to my installing both into the same 
program files directory. 

Regards...
Don

  - Original Message - 
  From: John Miles 
  To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
  Sent: Monday, August 17, 2009 2:39 PM
  Subject: Re: [time-nuts] How do time-nuts measure phase noise?



  
   Joe,
  
   I have the 8560E analyzer with the 85671A utility. I find the
   utility to be fairly slow in taking the numerous measurements and
   processing the results. The PN program from KE5FX EZGPIB does
   this in about 1/4 the time and has more post processing display
   options. You do need a computer with GPIB access to the analyzer
   but my opinion is this is a much preferred method unless
   portability is needed.
  
   BTW, all of John's software in the EZGPIB kit is first class.
   The 7470A emulator also works great on 8560 series printouts.

  Thanks for the good words, Don... note, however, that Ulrich may justly take
  exception to his EZGPIB program being conflated with a collection of ad-hoc
  utilities and hacks whose motto is Every error is fatal. :)

  -- john, KE5FX


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[time-nuts] Another 3458A problem

[Don @ True-Cal]

Hello,

Seems this is the month for errant 3458A DMMs. I have a unit that was working 
fine and passing both the power on and full Self Tests. The unit has been 
stored away for a few years and is very clean. After several days of continuous 
error free operation, is started kicking out the error:
 
114 System Error – multislope rundown error
 
At first, the error was only every few minutes (all default power on settings) 
but is now almost constant. I can clear the error and proceed for a few more 
seconds. It is also the only error in the stack.
 
Suspicious of electrolytics, I checked all voltages and ripple on both outguard 
and inguard supplies with everything looking good. I did replaced some caps 
that showed barely low values. This unit is 11 years old. At this point, I am 
reasonably sure it is not power supply related. I am also sure it is not a cal 
related condition as I started a procedure and it would not get past the first 
offset section – same error.
 
Does anyone have any documentation of knowledge of this error? ERRSTR 114 is 
not mentioned in the Assembly Level Repair manual. Thanks.
 
DonRegards...
Don





From: Dick Moore rich...@hughes.net
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Sunday, August 2, 2009 2:08:08 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] new request for 3458A info


On Aug 2, 2009, at 5:00 AM, time-nuts-requ...@febo.com wrote:
 
 Message: 4
 Date: Sun, 02 Aug 2009 03:00:06 +0200
 From: Dr. Frank Stellmach drfrank.stellm...@freenet.de
 Subject: [time-nuts] 3458A info
 To: time-nuts@febo.com
 Message-ID: 4a74e516.5020...@freenet.de
 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15; format=flowed
 
 Dick,
 
 did you already try an ACAL DCV, or ACAL ALL from the front panel?
 
 Maybe the false cal constants will be set correctly.
 
 In the calibration manual, its explained, which constants are set by
 atocal (and cured), and which one are set by basic calibration,
 requiring external standards (10 volt, 10kohm).
 I think, DAC Vos and 10V gain are set by ACAL.
 
 Frank

Yes, tried all that. Last night I gave up and opened the box, which I had been 
reluctant to do -- DC board had burned components right in the center. There 
are 2 unrecognizable ICs and a handful of resistors, etc, and a badly charred 
board. Probably unrepairable. Have no idea what could have happened to make it 
so bad without also killing the power supplies, which are AOK. Shouldn't have 
been anything on the input, which is protected against over-voltage/-current. 
Too bad.

Thanks for all the advice and tips.

Dick Moore

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Re: [time-nuts] Another 3458A problem

[Don @ True-Cal]

Noticed I misquoted the ERRSTR. It is:

114 System Error – multislope rundown convergence

 Regards...
Don 





From: Don @ True-Cal true-...@swbell.net
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 4, 2009 9:29:15 AM
Subject: [time-nuts] Another 3458A problem

Hello,

Seems this is the month for errant 3458A DMMs. I have a unit that was working 
fine and passing both the power on and full Self Tests. The unit has been 
stored away for a few years and is very clean. After several days of continuous 
error free operation, is started kicking out the error:
 
114 System Error – multislope rundown error
 
At first, the error was only every few minutes (all default power on settings) 
but is now almost constant. I can clear the error and proceed for a few more 
seconds. It is also the only error in the stack.
 
Suspicious of electrolytics, I checked all voltages and ripple on both outguard 
and inguard supplies with everything looking good. I did replaced some caps 
that showed barely low values. This unit is 11 years old. At this point, I am 
reasonably sure it is not power supply related. I am also sure it is not a cal 
related condition as I started a procedure and it would not get past the first 
offset section – same error.
 
Does anyone have any documentation of knowledge of this error? ERRSTR 114 is 
not mentioned in the Assembly Level Repair manual. Thanks.
 
Regards...
Don





From: Dick Moore rich...@hughes.net
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Sunday, August 2, 2009 2:08:08 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] new request for 3458A info


On Aug 2, 2009, at 5:00 AM, time-nuts-requ...@febo.com wrote:
 
 Message: 4
 Date: Sun, 02 Aug 2009 03:00:06 +0200
 From: Dr. Frank Stellmach drfrank.stellm...@freenet.de
 Subject: [time-nuts] 3458A info
 To: time-nuts@febo.com
 Message-ID: 4a74e516.5020...@freenet.de
 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15; format=flowed
 
 Dick,
 
 did you already try an ACAL DCV, or ACAL ALL from the front panel?
 
 Maybe the false cal constants will be set correctly.
 
 In the calibration manual, its explained, which constants are set by
 atocal (and cured), and which one are set by basic calibration,
 requiring external standards (10 volt, 10kohm).
 I think, DAC Vos and 10V gain are set by ACAL.
 
 Frank

Yes, tried all that. Last night I gave up and opened the box, which I had been 
reluctant to do -- DC board had burned components right in the center. There 
are 2 unrecognizable ICs and a handful of resistors, etc, and a badly charred 
board. Probably unrepairable. Have no idea what could have happened to make it 
so bad without also killing the power supplies, which are AOK. Shouldn't have 
been anything on the input, which is protected against over-voltage/-current. 
Too bad.

Thanks for all the advice and tips.

Dick Moore

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Re: [time-nuts] Efratom MFTD and BFM module

[Don @ True-Cal]

I am looking at this unit with interest also. Is this model intended for 10MHz 
reference and 10MHz distribution.

Can you reply with the spec sheet as an attachment please.
 Regards...
Don 





From: Majdi S. Abbas m...@latt.net
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 8:47:14 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Efratom MFTD and BFM module

On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 07:27:05AM -0400, wje wrote:
 I just snagged one of the MFTD distribution amps with MBF (analog)
 cards. There are two left listed as item 290333003008.
 
 Question: I know what all the modules are except the BFM module. I
 don't get any Google hits on it that say anything useful. Anyone
 know what this module does?

    Based on the spec sheet it's just a monitoring/management card.
Presumably whatever interface is available via RS-232 will at least tell
you when one of the modules has lost sync.

    --msa

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Re: [time-nuts] Trimble Thunderbolt setup optimization and adding a10811 OCXO

[Don @ True-Cal]

Arnold,

I have the same question as well as observations as yours. I have been 
working with both the TBolt and Fury connected to two different 10811s. With 
either the TBolt or Fury, I can't get the TC large enough to only provide a 
nudge to the EFC every few minutes. Both receivers get real unstable and cause 
large Freq and PPS swings with large TC numbers. It seems the EFC is providing 
many corrections per minute even with the TBOLT set to 300 secs. Anything 
larger than 300-500 sec. on the TBolt and EFCD=150 (don't know what the equates 
to in secs.) on the Fury will cause instability. I have better 
luck disabling desciplining on the TBolt or disconnecting the antenna on the 
Fury (no command to disable that I have found) when I need to do a Tau 0.1-10 
sec. low jitter measurement.
 Regards...
Don 





From: Arnold Tibus arnold.ti...@gmx.de
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com; 
Tom Van Baak t...@leapsecond.com
Sent: Monday, July 13, 2009 1:56:56 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Trimble Thunderbolt setup optimization and adding 
a10811 OCXO

Tom,:

 Astonishing for me,
 I found that the 10811 does behave better in undisciplined 
 mode for a limited time:

This is to be expected. An undisciplined high-quality OCXO
like a 10811 will be hundreds or thousands of times better
than the raw output of a GPS receiver at short averaging
times. This is why a GPSDO exists; it allows the OCXO to
run almost free for minutes to hours but allows GPS to rule
for long-term.

yes that is what I thought, but if I do observe correct, TB's 
OCXO does not run at all free for minutes. With a time 
constant of 360s the EFC and thePPS is surfing up and 
down, why, I do not see the need to shift this OCXO within 
2 minutes 80ppbs up and pps15ns as well - with this stable 
oscillatorwhat is the driver, the SATs (I think not so)!

Arnold



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Re: [time-nuts] Trimble Thunderbolt setup optimization and addinga10811 OCXO

[Don @ True-Cal]

John,

Yes, I have changed the gain to exactly your suggested -0.2 V/Hz and I have 
experimented with the damping from .5 to 3 and I'm currently using 1.00. Things 
certainly change with various damping and TC settings but not nearly as slow 
and subtel as I would like to see for an oscillator like the 10811. On the Fury 
I am using DACG=250, EFCS=.8, EFCD=80 and PhaseCO=12 (favoring freq stability 
for 10MHz reference). On both configurations I typically see 3.1 to 3.3 
nSec standard deviation so still much better than a Z3801.
 Regards...
Don 





From: John Miles jmi...@pop.net
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Monday, July 13, 2009 3:32:37 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Trimble Thunderbolt setup optimization and 
addinga10811 OCXO

What are you using for the Kvco constant with your 10811-based Thunderbolt?
If you don't back it down to -0.2 V/Hz, the loop's damping factor will be
very wrong, which might confuse the firmware.  Check the Kvco, and also do a
factory reset after changing the OCXO to make sure it forgets anything it
might be remembering about the OEM part.  (You might try that, too, Arnold.)

-- john, KE5FX

 -Original Message-
 From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com]on
 Behalf Of Don @ True-Cal
 Sent: Monday, July 13, 2009 1:15 PM
 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Trimble Thunderbolt setup optimization and
 addinga10811 OCXO


 Arnold,

 I have the same question as well as observations as yours. I have
 been working with both the TBolt and Fury connected to two
 different 10811s. With either the TBolt or Fury, I can't get the
 TC large enough to only provide a nudge to the EFC every few
 minutes. Both receivers get real unstable and cause large Freq
 and PPS swings with large TC numbers. It seems the EFC is
 providing many corrections per minute even with the TBOLT set to
 300 secs. Anything larger than 300-500 sec. on the TBolt and
 EFCD=150 (don't know what the equates to in secs.) on the Fury
 will cause instability. I have better luck disabling desciplining 
 on the TBolt or disconnecting the antenna on the Fury (no command
 to disable that I have found) when I need to do a Tau 0.1-10 sec.
 low jitter measurement.
  Regards...
 Don






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Re: [time-nuts] Trimble Thunderbolt setup optimization andaddinga10811 OCXO

[Don @ True-Cal]

Tom,

The most direct and quickest way I observe this is from GPScon (also use LH). I 
also constantly monitor one or the other GPSDO setups with an SR620 (zero 
crossing technique) with an LPRO-101 as the reference. I use an Tektronix 
monitor  display on the SR620 so I can watch deviation from reference and ADEV 
(sort of) typically on 24-hour window. A rough visual of the 20ns/div graph or 
a more accurate analysis on the SR620 dump agrees closely with the GPScon 
values. I want to use the best GPSDO setup for the SR620 reference instead of 
the LPRO to improve the PN floor. During these measurements, I currently 
anticipate having to disabling diciplining if I cant get a very long TC.
 Regards...
Don 





From: Tom Van Baak t...@leapsecond.com
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Monday, July 13, 2009 5:09:55 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Trimble Thunderbolt setup optimization andaddinga10811 
OCXO

Don,

When you say you see about 3 nSec standard deviation,
where is this number coming from? As reported by a
program like GPScon or LH, or an actual measurement
of the 1pps or 10 MHz output against a lab standard?

/tvb


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[time-nuts] SR620 Manual

[Don @ True-Cal]

Hi All,

As mentioned in these earlier threads, the Stanford site does not include 
schematics in their online manuals. I have the online version of the manual for 
my SR620 but would love to have the schematics. I am getting ready to install 
the low phase noise SC10 as the high stability reference oscillator option and 
would like to know exactly how the factory install is implemented. Does anyone 
have the schematic of full version manual to share? Alternatively, details of 
the reference oscillator option?

Thanks...
Don
  - Original Message - 
  From: Ulrich Bangert 
  To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' 
  Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 3:09 AM
  Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Ulrich, re PRS10


  Dick,

  sorry I do not have schematics. I was refering to the manual because of
  the well explained math of the regulation loop.

  Best regards
  Ulrich

   -Ursprungliche Nachricht-
   Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
   [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Im Auftrag von Richard Moore
   Gesendet: Montag, 8. Dezember 2008 00:18
   An: time-nuts@febo.com
   Betreff: Re: [time-nuts] Ulrich, re PRS10
   
   
   Ulrich, at the Stanford site, I found the manual for the PRS10 --  
   thanks for the link. The manual has very thorough 
   descriptions of the  
   circuits, but doesn't have schematics -- which I thought was kind of  
   odd. Do you have schematics or does any one here?
   
   Dick Moore
   
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[time-nuts] Test

[Don @ True-Cal]

Test Message

Parden the clutter but having problems posting

Don
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[time-nuts] ADEV and Tau-0 guestion

[Don @ True-Cal]

Fellow Time-Nuts,

I am having great fun with Ulrich's EZGPIB and Plotter programs to automate my 
ADEV and TI measurements. Wow, what a nice set of programs, thanks Ulrich!

I use the SR620 TIC with a Fury board as an external reference. The Fury 
disciplines an 10811-60168 external oscillator. I can go unlocked to improve 
the range around Tau 100s if and when necessary. For a series of tests, I used 
an LPRO-101 10Mhz signal to drive B-Ch (Stop) of the SR620; the A-Ch (Start) 
was set to Ref. for a Zero-Crossing TIME measurement on the TIC. I streamlined 
the EZGPIB SR620 query program and experimented with counter settings to 
minimize the inevitable and inherent latencies of the computer layers, network, 
GPIB-Enet/100 bridge and the counter (counter being the worst). With the 
counter set to 100 samples and the 1KHz Ref being used as the START, I was 
expecting a new, 100 sample TI average, every 0.1 seconds. My first evidence of 
something not being ideal was embedded in the details of the EZGPIB output 
console and accompanying file. Sometimes there were 7, 8 or 9 samples per 
second of time and never 10. Also, the total time span of a large collection of 
samples was always slightly longer than the product of the sample rate and 
count. I used Excel to scan 18000, 0.1s TI samples to determine what the actual 
statistics might be:

Average = 0.122302796 sec
Min = 0.188015099 sec
Max = 0.108984648 sec

Since the ADEV function as well as Ulrich's Plotter program requires a constant 
Tau-0, I experimented with the nominal 0.1s and the real average of 0.1223s 
Tau-0 setting and attached a graph that illustrates the variance across Tau. My 
question is; what is acceptable practice for defining Tau-0 when the 
likelihood of having a stable sampling interval is difficult. It was rather 
simple to specify a more accurate time sample interval once determined by the 
extra step of spreadsheet analysis and the effect on the results is obvious. 
But that is still, only an average. What about the effect of the deviation 
about the average value? It would seem that would be a much more complex issue 
to deal with.

See attached export or Plotter graphic.

Regards...
Don

Tau-0 Correction Variance.pdf
Description: Adobe PDF document
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Re: [time-nuts] ADEV and Tau-0 guestion

[Don @ True-Cal]

Hi Brooke,

Yes, I am aware of appendix B procedure. I am using that exact setup with the 
exception of how I feed A-Ch. Not sure why, but I get less jitter of 5-7ps when 
I use the Source Ref feature to feed the external reference derived 1KHz to 
the A-Ch. When I use the BNC T method, I see about 10-12ps jitter. For all 
practical purposes, I am setup like appendix B and I use the ARMing mode as 
described.

All that said. The problem is when I try to do back to back GPIB MEAS? reads of 
the counter, the request and reply datum and subsequent time stamp is not real 
predictable. The end goal here is not to adjust the UUT to an accurate 
frequency as covered in appendix B but rather to build a list of time 
deviations with a consistent sampling rate to feed to the Plotter program. If I 
use an ARM sample of 1000 (1.0 sec), I see pretty good stability, less at 100 
samples (0.1 sec) and really bad at 10 or 1 sample. This limits my Tau-0 to 0.1 
sec for a reasonable ADEV analysis.

Regards...
Don 
  - Original Message - 
  From: Brooke Clarke 
  To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
  Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 4:48 PM
  Subject: Re: [time-nuts] ADEV and Tau-0 guestion


  Hi Don:

  If you want to average many (100, 1000) reads in one second you need to use 
the 
  ARM function as described in appendix B of the PRS10 manual.
  http://www.prc68.com/I/PRS10.shtml

  Have Fun,

  Brooke Clarke
  http://www.prc68.com/P/Prod.html  Products I make and sell
  http://www.prc68.com/Alpha.shtml  All my web pages listed based on html name
  http://www.PRC68.com
  http://www.precisionclock.com
  http://www.prc68.com/I/WebCam2.shtml 24/7 Sky-Weather-Astronomy Web Cam

  Don @ True-Cal wrote:
   Fellow Time-Nuts,
   
   I am having great fun with Ulrich's EZGPIB and Plotter programs to automate 
my ADEV and TI measurements. Wow, what a nice set of programs, thanks Ulrich!
   
   I use the SR620 TIC with a Fury board as an external reference. The Fury 
disciplines an 10811-60168 external oscillator. I can go unlocked to improve 
the range around Tau 100s if and when necessary. For a series of tests, I used 
an LPRO-101 10Mhz signal to drive B-Ch (Stop) of the SR620; the A-Ch (Start) 
was set to Ref. for a Zero-Crossing TIME measurement on the TIC. I streamlined 
the EZGPIB SR620 query program and experimented with counter settings to 
minimize the inevitable and inherent latencies of the computer layers, network, 
GPIB-Enet/100 bridge and the counter (counter being the worst). With the 
counter set to 100 samples and the 1KHz Ref being used as the START, I was 
expecting a new, 100 sample TI average, every 0.1 seconds. My first evidence of 
something not being ideal was embedded in the details of the EZGPIB output 
console and accompanying file. Sometimes there were 7, 8 or 9 samples per 
second of time and never 10. Also, the total time span of a large coll
  ection of samples was always slightly longer than the product of the sample 
rate and count. I used Excel to scan 18000, 0.1s TI samples to determine what 
the actual statistics might be:
   
   Average = 0.122302796 sec
   Min = 0.188015099 sec
   Max = 0.108984648 sec
   
   Since the ADEV function as well as Ulrich's Plotter program requires a 
constant Tau-0, I experimented with the nominal 0.1s and the real average of 
0.1223s Tau-0 setting and attached a graph that illustrates the variance across 
Tau. My question is; what is acceptable practice for defining Tau-0 when the 
likelihood of having a stable sampling interval is difficult. It was rather 
simple to specify a more accurate time sample interval once determined by the 
extra step of spreadsheet analysis and the effect on the results is obvious. 
But that is still, only an average. What about the effect of the deviation 
about the average value? It would seem that would be a much more complex issue 
to deal with.
   
   See attached export or Plotter graphic.
   
   Regards...
   Don
   
   
   
   
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[time-nuts] Question and help with LPRO-101

[Don @ True-Cal]

Hello,
 
Can anyone guide me or give me a link to internal settings on the Efratom 
LPRO-101 Rb oscillator. I have the User's and Integration Guide but I am 
looking for more detailed information on any optional settings that may be 
available from the many inside jumpers and/or hidden connectors. Specifically, 
all of the units I have provide a 10MHz sine wave output and I am wanting a 
1PPS output on one of the units. I believe there are LPROs that provide a 1PPS 
output but not sure if they are a different part number unit with different 
electronics or just different jumper options inside. I scoped the hidden 
connector J6 but no 1PPS signal.
 
There is a 9-pair J8 jumper block with 2 jumpers and a 7-pair J8 with one 
jumper and a 2-pair J1 with no jumper. There is also a connector block J9 and a 
3-pair J10 but they are back by the Rb lamp/cavity with analog signals on some 
probably for initial test/calibration.
 
My units are Cage Code 55761,  Part Number 102500-001
 
Thanks...
Don
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Re: [time-nuts] Question and help with LPRO-101

[Don @ True-Cal]

Ian,

No problem, more discussion - the better.

Unscrew the two hex standoffs on either side on the connector, pull the 10-pin 
feed-through out of the internal connector. Note the position of the grounded 
pins vs. the capacitive bypass feedthrough pins. This will free up the metal 
cover to snap off of the base plate. A very small screwdriver can be used in 
the small slots at each of the four coners to pry the box cover free from the 
base plate.

Caution, here is where a little will-power is needed to resist tuning the 
several adjustments for better performance.

Have fun,
Don


- Original Message 
From: Ian Sheffield [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 1:34:01 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Question and help with LPRO-101

Hello Don,

Sorry to hijack your question, but how do you get inside an LPRO-101? Does 
the case just spring off?

Thanks,

Ian.


- Original Message - 
From: Don @ True-Cal [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 7:05 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] Question and help with LPRO-101


Hello,

Can anyone guide me or give me a link to internal settings on the Efratom 
LPRO-101 Rb oscillator. I have the User's and Integration Guide but I am 
looking for more detailed information on any optional settings that may be 
available from the many inside jumpers and/or hidden connectors. 
Specifically, all of the units I have provide a 10MHz sine wave output and I 
am wanting a 1PPS output on one of the units. I believe there are LPROs that 
provide a 1PPS output but not sure if they are a different part number unit 
with different electronics or just different jumper options inside. I scoped 
the hidden connector J6 but no 1PPS signal.

There is a 9-pair J8 jumper block with 2 jumpers and a 7-pair J8 with one 
jumper and a 2-pair J1 with no jumper. There is also a connector block J9 
and a 3-pair J10 but they are back by the Rb lamp/cavity with analog signals 
on some probably for initial test/calibration.

My units are Cage Code 55761, Part Number 102500-001

Thanks...
Don
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No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.8.1/1734 - Release Date: 10/20/2008 
07:25


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Re: [time-nuts] PLOTTER EZGPIB

[Don @ True-Cal]

Ulrich,

I have been wanting to try your EZGPIB to control and capture data from various 
instruments I run in my lab. My GPIB bus typically has 3-6 instruments 
connected and I currently use the NI GPIB-ENET/100 as a LAN bridge to any one 
of several windows based computers. Ocassionally, I also use the NI GPIB-USB-A 
connected to a single instrument. In either case, I use the NI drivers and 
NI-488.2 ver 2.1 on WinXP. My control applications to date have been limited to 
Agilent VEE Pro along with the Agilent IO library suite. Can you comment on any 
known problems or issues I might encounter using EZGPIB with the above hardware 
or VISA API configuration/s. The instruments I may have on the bus are:
SR620
HP 53181A
HP 5372A
HP 3457A
HP 8903B
Keithley 2002

Thanks...
Don


- Original Message 
From: Ulrich Bangert [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Time nuts time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 3:11:19 AM
Subject: [time-nuts] PLOTTER  EZGPIB

Gentlemen,

new versions of PLOTTER and EZGPIB are available. Some bugs concerning
the search for Prologix serial  network controllers have been removed
and the possibility has been included to log the messages from the debug
window into a file.

PLOTTER now can compute the mean and the SD of a series only on the part
of the series that is displayed, i.e. you can zoom in to parts of the
series and compute mean  SD for the displayed part only.

Enjoy

Ulrich Bangert
www.ulrich-bangert.de
Ortholzer Weg 1
27243 Gross Ippener 


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[time-nuts] Fury GPSDO servo gain

[Don @ True-Cal]

Hello group,
 
This request is primarily directed to Said concerning the Fury OEM board that 
several of us bought a few months back. I have been working with the board and 
trying several different OCXOs. Is there a table or graph that would help 
determine the SERVO:DATG index if the Hz/volt slope of the oscillator is known. 
The simple table in the Users Manual (rev. 1.4) that lists four different data 
points is a start but it is very difficult to interpolate intermediate points. 
Additionally, the Max Frequency Deviation for the oscillator is a bit ambiguous 
since some are based on -5v to +5V (10811) and others just 0v to +5 (MTI). The 
table lists an index of 250.0 for the 10811 @ 2Hz (-5v to +5v) but Paragraph 
4.7.1.2 states 150 for a +-2v EFC. Several index points referenced to Hz/volt 
would help save a lot of experimentation. 

Regards... 
Don J.
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[time-nuts] Efratom PTB-100

[Don @ True-Cal]

); SAEximRunCond expanded to false
Errors-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Hello Folks,

I am looking for a manual, or at least a schematic for the Ball Efratom PTB-100 
Rubidium Time Base (Tek TM-500 plug-in). The Rb oscillator is working fine but 
there is a problem in the control and TTL conversion circuits.

Thanks for any help...
Don
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