Re: [time-nuts] Loran

[paul swed]

Paul
Yes indeed lots of thinking. Thinking is good when you are paid by the hour.
Unfortunately it doesn't create an alternate time and frequency reference
should GNNS fail.
I have been following this for a long time and hope that eLoran returns. I
always enjoyed it as a reference here in Boston.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Tue, Aug 8, 2017 at 7:27 AM, REEVES Paul 
wrote:

> And a link to a recent article about the possibility of Loran coming
> backor, at least, you are thinking about it over there.
>
> https://arstechnica.co.uk/gadgets/2017/08/radio-
> navigation-set-to-make-global-return-as-gps-backup-because-cyber/
>
> Paul Reeves, G8GJA
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[time-nuts] Loran

[REEVES Paul]

And a link to a recent article about the possibility of Loran coming back   
 or, at least, you are thinking about it over there.

https://arstechnica.co.uk/gadgets/2017/08/radio-navigation-set-to-make-global-return-as-gps-backup-because-cyber/

Paul Reeves, G8GJA
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Re: [time-nuts] Loran Europe Lessay seems to be back on air?

[GandalfG8--- via time-nuts]

> It seems to me that the code they use for the 6731M signal is  botched,
> anybody who can confirm ?
 
Indeed, see the attached plot (from a recording I made earlier  this
evening): the master signal is totally lacking the 180 degree  phase
code modulation, while the slave signal does have it.
 
Regards,
Pieter-Tjerk, PA3FWM
 

 
I didn't get a chance to check yesterday but am currently locked  onto both 
the "Lessay" Master and the Anthorn Y station so I assume  these problems 
are resolved, for now at least:-)
 
Regards
 
Nigel
GM8PZR
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Re: [time-nuts] Loran Europe Lessay seems to be back on air?

[GandalfG8--- via time-nuts]

> It seems to me that the code they use for the 6731M signal is  botched,
> anybody who can confirm ?
 
Indeed, see the attached plot (from a recording I made earlier  this
evening): the master signal is totally lacking the 180 degree  phase
code modulation, while the slave signal does have  it.
Regards,
Pieter-Tjerk, PA3FWM
 
-
This explains exactly what I've been seeing here on the FS700s.
 
By default the FS700 runs in an "Auto" mode, where given a valid GRI  it 
searches and locks to the station with the highest signal strength,  but with 
both Master and Y channels now having the same amplitude this obviously  
becomes a very close call.
This wasn't an issue until yesterday afternoon, but  with both operational 
units producing errors I eventually  realised this was only when they were 
trying to lock to the  Master and that they would still lock ok to the Y  
channel, manually selecting the Y channel resolved the problem.
 
Whether or not the current situation is deliberate or unintended,  having 
the Master present again, even in a restricted fashion, does at  least 
restore proper channel identification:-)
 
Regards
 
Nigel
GM8PZR
 
 
 
 
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Re: [time-nuts] Loran Europe Lessay seems to be back on air?

[Brian Inglis]

The 2015 shutdown was of the Research Information Network, but I guess the OP 
may have meant the Royal Institute of Navigation? Hard to believe anyone 
responsible from the latter would decry eLoran, unless perhaps the operational 
cost was seen to be unreasonable.

On 2016-01-06 18:39, Alan Melia wrote:

Yeah well its all done by computers now you dont need qualified navigators, the 
Captain can easily run it aground on his own :-)) It took a little longer than 
dumping ROs but not much.

Alan
G3NYK

- Original Message - From: "Brian Inglis" 
<brian.ing...@systematicsw.ab.ca>
To: <time-nuts@febo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2016 9:44 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Loran Europe Lessay seems to be back on air?



On 2016-01-04 14:11, Alan Melia wrote:

I remember being told by a senior member of the RIN that he thought it was a "dead 
duck" and a waste of money.


It appears someone also thought RIN was a "dead duck" and a waste of money as 
it too shut down at the end of 2015!


--
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Re: [time-nuts] Loran Europe Lessay seems to be back on air?

[paul swed]

I will say that this is the case that Time-nuts can actually help.
I suspect no one knows there are people out here that can tell the
difference in the Master signals. I learned that lesson when I built up the
Loran C simulator. The first one did not do the flips. Then when the
Austrons would not lock I figured it out. Yes I should have read the spec
more carefully.
If you can find contacts that care they most likely will appreciate you
help.
Good luck
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Thu, Jan 7, 2016 at 6:55 AM, Alan Melia <alan.me...@btinternet.com>
wrote:

> Hi Brian Yes I did mean the Royal Inst. of Navigation.  I think the hard
> facts were that there seemed no support from Governments for systems for
> which the users could not be billed . That hastened the demise of our own
> Decca Nav system in the late 90s also hastened by the end of the Cold War.
> My contact may have been jaundiced as he had been a Decca man. I had a
> contact whilst the Loop Head gear was operating from Rugby, but not after
> the contract passed to Babcock and Anthorn..but there were ex BT staff
> working there.I will enquire.
>
> Alan
> G3NYK
> - Original Message - From: "Brian Inglis" <
> brian.ing...@systematicsw.ab.ca>
> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" <
> time-nuts@febo.com>
> Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2016 6:26 AM
>
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Loran Europe Lessay seems to be back on air?
>
>
> The 2015 shutdown was of the Research Information Network, but I guess the
>> OP may have meant the Royal Institute of Navigation? Hard to believe anyone
>> responsible from the latter would decry eLoran, unless perhaps the
>> operational cost was seen to be unreasonable.
>>
>> On 2016-01-06 18:39, Alan Melia wrote:
>>
>>> Yeah well its all done by computers now you dont need qualified
>>> navigators, the Captain can easily run it aground on his own :-)) It took a
>>> little longer than dumping ROs but not much.
>>>
>>> Alan
>>> G3NYK
>>>
>>> - Original Message - From: "Brian Inglis" <
>>> brian.ing...@systematicsw.ab.ca>
>>> To: <time-nuts@febo.com>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2016 9:44 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Loran Europe Lessay seems to be back on air?
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2016-01-04 14:11, Alan Melia wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I remember being told by a senior member of the RIN that he thought it
>>>>> was a "dead duck" and a waste of money.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It appears someone also thought RIN was a "dead duck" and a waste of
>>>> money as it too shut down at the end of 2015!
>>>>
>>>
>> --
>> Take care. Thanks, Brian Inglis, Calgary, Alberta, Canada
>> ___
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Re: [time-nuts] Loran Europe Lessay seems to be back on air?

[paul swed]

The norm right now is 1 year. Enjoy while you can.

On Tue, Jan 5, 2016 at 1:50 PM, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts <
time-nuts@febo.com> wrote:

> Yes, they've been switching back and forth between one or two channels  all
> day, with the one channel state always being just the usual Anthorn Y
> channel and the two channels always being Master plus the Y  channel.
> Sometimes the overall signal levels have been fluctuating quite a bit  at
> 100 Miles from Anthorn, more so than usual, and when in the  two channel
> state both channels have always been at the same signal  level, although
> on a
> few occasions the signal has shut down  altogether for several minutes at a
> time.
>
> As it's now nearly 1850, and still transmitting Master and slave  rather
> than reverting to just the slave as it did at the end of the day
> yesterday,
> I'm even more encouraged to hope this might become the norm for some  time
> at
> least.
>
> Regards
>
> Nigel
> GM8PZR
>
>
> In a message dated 05/01/2016 17:29:11 GMT Standard Time,
> p...@phk.freebsd.dk writes:
>
> 
>
> I see both a master and slave on 6731 from Denmark  now.
>
> Same signal strength:
>
> http://phk.freebsd.dk/misc/_.svg
>
> --
> Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
> p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
> FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
> Never attribute to malice  what can adequately be explained by
> incompetence.
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Loran Europe Lessay seems to be back on air?

[paul swed]

Right but they are both the same station.
Note the levels are pretty much the same.

On Tue, Jan 5, 2016 at 12:29 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp 
wrote:

> 
>
> I see both a master and slave on 6731 from Denmark now.
>
> Same signal strength:
>
> http://phk.freebsd.dk/misc/_.svg
>
> --
> Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
> p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
> FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
> Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
> ___
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>
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Re: [time-nuts] Loran Europe Lessay seems to be back on air?

[Iain Young]

Hi All,

On 05/01/16 20:03, paul swed wrote:

The norm right now is 1 year. Enjoy while you can.

On Tue, Jan 5, 2016 at 1:50 PM, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts <
time-nuts@febo.com> wrote:


Yes, they've been switching back and forth between one or two channels  all
day, with the one channel state always being just the usual Anthorn Y
channel and the two channels always being Master plus the Y  channel.
Sometimes the overall signal levels have been fluctuating quite a bit  at
100 Miles from Anthorn, more so than usual, and when in the  two channel
state both channels have always been at the same signal  level, although
on a
few occasions the signal has shut down  altogether for several minutes at a
time.

As it's now nearly 1850, and still transmitting Master and slave  rather
than reverting to just the slave as it did at the end of the day
yesterday,
I'm even more encouraged to hope this might become the norm for some  time
at
least.



I happen to receive the "GNSS Edition of Chronos Times" from
chronos.co.uk. While a "newsletter" (read advertisement) style email,
the like of which I'm sure we all get from various sources, the
following paragraph contained a sentence about the recent European LORAN 
shutdown.


I won't quote the entire "newsletter", but the paragraph in question
reads:

---BEGIN QUOTE---
We wish you a happy and prosperous 2016 and welcome to the first GNSS 
edition of the Chronos Times. Apart from a number of new exciting 
products shown below, the best news we had just before Christmas was 
that eLoran transmissions for timing and data services will be 
maintained going forward. Whilst the rest of Europe has decided to close 
down its old Loran-C transmitters, the UK has confirmed that eLoran 
transmissions from Anthorn will continue. This is early days for this 
new service

---END QUOTE---

So, that's some good news at least. How long for, as Paul says is to be
determined, but at least it's positive news


Best Regards

Iain
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Re: [time-nuts] Loran Europe Lessay seems to be back on air?

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

It seems to me that the code they use for the 6731M signal is botched,
anybody who can confirm ?

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
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Re: [time-nuts] Loran Europe Lessay seems to be back on air?

[Brian Inglis]

On 2016-01-04 14:11, Alan Melia wrote:

I remember being told by a senior member of the RIN that he thought it was a "dead 
duck" and a waste of money.


It appears someone also thought RIN was a "dead duck" and a waste of money as 
it too shut down at the end of 2015!

--
Take care. Thanks, Brian Inglis, Calgary, Alberta, Canada
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Re: [time-nuts] Loran Europe Lessay seems to be back on air?

[Pieter-Tjerk de Boer]

On Wed, Jan 06, 2016 at 05:05:37PM +, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:

> It seems to me that the code they use for the 6731M signal is botched,
> anybody who can confirm ?

Indeed, see the attached plot (from a recording I made earlier this
evening): the master signal is totally lacking the 180 degree phase
code modulation, while the slave signal does have it.

Regards,
  Pieter-Tjerk, PA3FWM

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Re: [time-nuts] Loran Europe Lessay seems to be back on air?

[Alan Melia]

Yeah well its all done by computers now you dont need qualified navigators, 
the Captain can easily run it aground on his own :-)) It took a little 
longer than dumping ROs but not much.


Alan
G3NYK

- Original Message - 
From: "Brian Inglis" <brian.ing...@systematicsw.ab.ca>

To: <time-nuts@febo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2016 9:44 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Loran Europe Lessay seems to be back on air?



On 2016-01-04 14:11, Alan Melia wrote:
I remember being told by a senior member of the RIN that he thought it 
was a "dead duck" and a waste of money.


It appears someone also thought RIN was a "dead duck" and a waste of money 
as it too shut down at the end of 2015!


--
Take care. Thanks, Brian Inglis, Calgary, Alberta, Canada
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Re: [time-nuts] Loran Europe Lessay seems to be back on air?

[paul swed]

I would give Anthorn some time to settle down. It will.
Its a shame no one here has actual contacts with the people that run it.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Wed, Jan 6, 2016 at 4:44 PM, Brian Inglis <
brian.ing...@systematicsw.ab.ca> wrote:

> On 2016-01-04 14:11, Alan Melia wrote:
>
>> I remember being told by a senior member of the RIN that he thought it
>> was a "dead duck" and a waste of money.
>>
>
> It appears someone also thought RIN was a "dead duck" and a waste of money
> as it too shut down at the end of 2015!
>
> --
> Take care. Thanks, Brian Inglis, Calgary, Alberta, Canada
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Loran Europe Lessay seems to be back on air?

[GandalfG8--- via time-nuts]

It seems to me that the code they use for the 6731M signal is  botched,
anybody who can confirm ?
 

 
Something's certainly not right at the moment.
This morning all was working fine with both Master and Y stations locked on 
 different receivers, but I had to go out for a few hours and when I 
returned  sometime after 1400, although I could still see a loran transmission 
on  
100KHz, nothing would lock and I was getting various errors reported,  
including "Can't match phase code".
 
As of 1815 this situation continues, although I'm still seeing  occasional 
signal dropouts and then recovery, so perhaps they're still working  on it.
 
Regards
 
Nigel
GM8PZR
 
 
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Re: [time-nuts] Loran Europe Lessay seems to be back on air?

[GandalfG8--- via time-nuts]

It seems to me that the code they use for the 6731M signal is  botched,
anybody who can confirm ?

 
Ah well, as of 1915 the FS700s seem to be locking ok again but  still with 
the monitored signal dropping out from time to time so I guess we  just need 
to be patient and treat it as work in progress.
 
Regards
 
Nigel
GM8PZR
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Re: [time-nuts] Loran Europe Lessay seems to be back on air?

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

In message <5ce6d0.616cac05.43bec...@aol.com>, gandal...@aol.com writes:
>--part1_5ce6d0.616cac05.43bec318_boundary

>It seems to me that the code they use for the 6731M signal is  botched,
>anybody who can confirm ?
>
> 
>Ah well, as of 1915 the FS700s seem to be locking ok again but  still with 
>the monitored signal dropping out from time to time so I guess we  just need 
>to be patient and treat it as work in progress.

I can lock too, but best lock is to the 3rd pulse in the master
signal using the slave-code...

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
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Re: [time-nuts] Loran Europe Lessay seems to be back on air?

[David J Taylor]

FOlks,

Whilst it's not e-LORAN, and it may not be of much help, I can at least now 
look for signals here in Edinburgh give the GRI.  I'm using:


- e-field vertical mounted in the loft (yes, it would be far better outside)
- SpyVerter/Airspy receiver hardware
- SDR# receiver software
- Virtual Audio Cable to send the audio from SDR# to;
- NDBfinder software from www.coaa.co.uk

This doesn't do anything ultra clever, just shows the signals like you would 
see on a 'scope, but integrated to improve the S/N.


Cheers,
David
--
SatSignal Software - Quality software written to your requirements
Web: http://www.satsignal.eu
Email: david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk
Twitter: @gm8arv 


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Re: [time-nuts] Loran Europe Lessay seems to be back on air?

[David J Taylor]

I'm receiving pulses on 100 kHz with AirSpy and a SpyVerter, but I have no 
Windows software to decode the signal and determine just which LORAN it is. 
Can anyone recommend suitable Windows software?


Being located in Edinburgh the signal is reasonable strong.

Thanks,
David
--
SatSignal Software - Quality software written to your requirements
Web: http://www.satsignal.eu
Email: david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk
Twitter: @gm8arv 


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Re: [time-nuts] Loran Europe Lessay seems to be back on air?

[John Seamons]

On LoranView (http://www.df6nm.bplaced.net/LoranView/LoranGrabber.htm) you can 
easily see various outages on Anthorn beginning at about 1500Z 4-Jan.

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Re: [time-nuts] LORAN Activity in the US

[paul swed]

Stan,
Yes this is the test I sent the email out on last week and will run to the
15th.
I accidentally put 2015. But that said I am also locked.
Curious why are you using a battery at the antenna??
Regards
Paul.
WB8TSL

On Tue, Jan 5, 2016 at 9:53 AM, Stan W1LE  wrote:

> Hello The Nets:
>
> currently my receiver is locked and I am tracking the LORAN emitter in the
> US.
> Rx is a SRS FS700, Austron LF Multifilter #2084, a pair of orthogonal
> delta loops, and a ARR preamplifier at the antenna.
> A deep cycle battery is at the antenna for DC power.
>
> Stan, W1LECape Cod   FN41sr
>
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Loran Europe Lessay seems to be back on air?

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

I see both a master and slave on 6731 from Denmark now.

Same signal strength:

http://phk.freebsd.dk/misc/_.svg

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
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Re: [time-nuts] Loran Europe Lessay seems to be back on air?

[paul swed]

Well this is indeed a good new year.
It would appear that Anthorn will be active for a year to 2017.
It will be dual rated as a master and slave same sight. Much like the US.
The ups and downs you are seeing are the process to dual rate the Master.
Should settle out soon as Master and Y.
So It would appear that at least one country sees the value in an alternate
time and frequency distribution method. Hats off to the UK.

OK now I may have to go back to building the 10' square loop. Do a bit of
eLORAN DX.

Enjoy
Paul
WB8TSL


On Tue, Jan 5, 2016 at 7:36 AM, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts <
time-nuts@febo.com> wrote:

> Hi David,
>
> I've only used Loran specific hardware receivers for actual decoding,  so
> no doubt others will be better able to answer your question re suitable
> software, but one thing to watch out for is that the stations don't
> actually
> transmit a named identifier.
>
> With all stations transmitting at 100KHz, identification depends on the
> pre-allocated group repetition interval (GRI), with the secondary
> stations in
> a particular group being identified by their time relationship  to the
> master.
> Purpose made receivers that identify stations by name do so from internally
>  stored data, which is why my FS700s always insist that Anthorn is really
> Loop  Head in Ireland, SRS jumped the gun a bit but never issued an updated
> PROM after  the proposed station at Loop Head didn't go into service:-)
>
> It's certainly fun just monitoring today though, both Master and Y  station
> are back at the moment but the modulation's been changing about  enough to
> suggest someone might even be trying to play tunes on  it:-)
>
> Regards
>
> Nigel
> GM8PZR
>
> I'm receiving pulses on 100 kHz with AirSpy and a SpyVerter, but I have no
> Windows software to decode the signal and determine just which LORAN it is.
>
> Can anyone recommend suitable Windows software?
> Being located in  Edinburgh the signal is reasonable  strong.
> Thanks,
> David
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[time-nuts] LORAN Activity in the US

[Stan W1LE]

Hello The Nets:

currently my receiver is locked and I am tracking the LORAN emitter in 
the US.
Rx is a SRS FS700, Austron LF Multifilter #2084, a pair of orthogonal 
delta loops, and a ARR preamplifier at the antenna.

A deep cycle battery is at the antenna for DC power.

Stan, W1LECape Cod   FN41sr



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Re: [time-nuts] Loran Europe Lessay seems to be back on air?

[GandalfG8--- via time-nuts]

Yes, they've been switching back and forth between one or two channels  all 
day, with the one channel state always being just the usual Anthorn Y  
channel and the two channels always being Master plus the Y  channel.
Sometimes the overall signal levels have been fluctuating quite a bit  at 
100 Miles from Anthorn, more so than usual, and when in the  two channel 
state both channels have always been at the same signal  level, although on a 
few occasions the signal has shut down  altogether for several minutes at a 
time.
 
As it's now nearly 1850, and still transmitting Master and slave  rather 
than reverting to just the slave as it did at the end of the day  yesterday, 
I'm even more encouraged to hope this might become the norm for some  time at 
least.
 
Regards
 
Nigel
GM8PZR
 
 
In a message dated 05/01/2016 17:29:11 GMT Standard Time,  
p...@phk.freebsd.dk writes:



I see both a master and slave on 6731 from Denmark  now.

Same signal strength:

http://phk.freebsd.dk/misc/_.svg

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice  what can adequately be explained by  
incompetence.

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Re: [time-nuts] Loran Europe Lessay seems to be back on air?

[GandalfG8--- via time-nuts]

The experiment continues.
 
Earlier today both the Master and Y channels were showing again, then at  
1200 the signal disappeared completely, to be back at 1206 but not long  
enough for the FS700 to lock before it went again.
 
All good fun:-)
 
Regards
 
Nigel
GM8PZR
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Re: [time-nuts] Loran Europe Lessay seems to be back on air?

[GandalfG8--- via time-nuts]

Hi David,
 
I've only used Loran specific hardware receivers for actual decoding,  so 
no doubt others will be better able to answer your question re suitable  
software, but one thing to watch out for is that the stations don't actually  
transmit a named identifier.
 
With all stations transmitting at 100KHz, identification depends on the  
pre-allocated group repetition interval (GRI), with the secondary  stations in 
a particular group being identified by their time relationship  to the 
master.
Purpose made receivers that identify stations by name do so from internally 
 stored data, which is why my FS700s always insist that Anthorn is really 
Loop  Head in Ireland, SRS jumped the gun a bit but never issued an updated 
PROM after  the proposed station at Loop Head didn't go into service:-)
 
It's certainly fun just monitoring today though, both Master and Y  station 
are back at the moment but the modulation's been changing about  enough to 
suggest someone might even be trying to play tunes on  it:-)
 
Regards
 
Nigel
GM8PZR
 
I'm receiving pulses on 100 kHz with AirSpy and a SpyVerter, but I have no  
Windows software to decode the signal and determine just which LORAN it is. 
 
Can anyone recommend suitable Windows software?
Being located in  Edinburgh the signal is reasonable  strong.
Thanks,
David
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Re: [time-nuts] Loran Europe Lessay seems to be back on air?

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

In message <576b98.2a1f5672.43bc0...@aol.com>, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts 
writes:

>As of 1725, 4th January, Lessay seems to have been transmitting  again for 
>at least 30 minutes, and showing the same or a slightly stronger  signal 
>here on the west coast of Scotland than Anthorn.

Are you sure it's not UK trying to rig something up for their eLoran trials ?

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
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Re: [time-nuts] Loran Europe Lessay seems to be back on air?

[GandalfG8--- via time-nuts]

I'm pretty sure it was Anthorn.
 
It was showing as the Master and Y stations, and the individual signal  
levels as indicated on an FS700 were within 1dB, which would seem a reasonable  
tolerance on equal signal levels given that the FS700 only reports to  the 
nearest 1dB anyway:-)
 
Still just showing Anthorn's "own" signal for now but I'll check again  
during working hours tomorrow.
 
Although I've seen it claimed otherwise I never found anything to  suggest 
Anthorn would be closing down with the other stations anyway so  wasn't 
surprised when it didn't.
I hadn't considered this latest scenario but it does make sense if  they 
intend to keep going for now.
 
Regards
 
Nigel
GM8PZR
 
 
In a message dated 04/01/2016 19:19:30 GMT Standard Time,  
paulsw...@gmail.com writes:

 
I  somewhat may guess its Anthorn.
My 2  cents from across the ocean.


The  Brits are pretty good about shutting things down. The fact that 
Anthorn stayed  operational was pretty odd even if you thought the new years 
parties got in  the way. Lets face it drink beer with friends or shut a 
transmitter in some  far away place. I know my choice.


They  can easily dual rate Anthorn. But then the signal level should be 
equal.
On  eLORAN tests in the US its a Master and the Y station. But its one  
transmitter. The same transmitter has no problem with some other rate running  
at the same time.


Regards
Paul
WB8TSL




On Mon, Jan 4, 2016 at 1:19 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp <_phk@phk.freebsd.dk_ 
(mailto:p...@phk.freebsd.dk) > wrote:


In  message <_576b98.2a1f5672.43bc052e@aol.com_ 
(mailto:576b98.2a1f5672.43bc0...@aol.com) >,  GandalfG8--- via time-nuts writes:

>As of 1725, 4th January,  Lessay seems to have been transmitting  again for
>at least 30  minutes, and showing the same or a slightly stronger   signal
>here on the west coast of Scotland than  Anthorn.

Are you sure it's not UK trying to rig something up  for their eLoran 
trials ?

--
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX  since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org |  TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD  since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be  explained by incompetence.

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Re: [time-nuts] Loran Europe Lessay seems to be back on air?

[paul swed]

I somewhat may guess its Anthorn.
My 2 cents from across the ocean.

The Brits are pretty good about shutting things down. The fact that Anthorn
stayed operational was pretty odd even if you thought the new years parties
got in the way. Lets face it drink beer with friends or shut a transmitter
in some far away place. I know my choice.

They can easily dual rate Anthorn. But then the signal level should be
equal.
On eLORAN tests in the US its a Master and the Y station. But its one
transmitter. The same transmitter has no problem with some other rate
running at the same time.

Regards
Paul
WB8TSL


On Mon, Jan 4, 2016 at 1:19 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp 
wrote:

> 
> In message <576b98.2a1f5672.43bc0...@aol.com>, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts
> writes:
>
> >As of 1725, 4th January, Lessay seems to have been transmitting  again for
> >at least 30 minutes, and showing the same or a slightly stronger  signal
> >here on the west coast of Scotland than Anthorn.
>
> Are you sure it's not UK trying to rig something up for their eLoran
> trials ?
>
> --
> Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
> p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
> FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
> Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
> ___
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>
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Re: [time-nuts] Loran Europe Lessay seems to be back on air?

[GandalfG8--- via time-nuts]

>As of 1725, 4th January, Lessay seems to have been transmitting   again 
for 
>at least 30 minutes, and showing the same or a slightly  stronger  signal 
>here on the west coast of Scotland than  Anthorn.
 
Are you sure it's not UK trying to rig something up for their eLoran trials 
 ?
 
=
 
I'm pretty sure now that's exactly what it was, and keeping my fingers  
crossed it'll be permanent once they finish playing:-)
 
Regards
 
Nigel
GM8PZR
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Re: [time-nuts] Loran Europe Lessay seems to be back on air?

[GandalfG8--- via time-nuts]

This could just be wishful thinking but I'm still hoping it might stay  for 
some time yet.
 
The UK General Lighthouse Authorities have been running their eLoran trials 
 since 2007 so perhaps they found sufficient incentive within that time to 
keep  going.
 
Time will tell, but as you suggest I'm just going to enjoy it for as long  
as it lasts or, with a bit of luck, for as long as I do:-)
 
Nigel
GM8PZR
 
 
In a message dated 04/01/2016 20:06:16 GMT Standard Time,  
paulsw...@gmail.com writes:

 
Nigel
In  the US at least for the eastern half of the country the test station 
has been  on lately for several weeks at a shot. Not exactly the old days but 
a great  resource besides GPS to check my various references and note 
offsets and such  using the austrons and SRS.
I  would agree 1 db difference is nothing and its the same station.Enjoy it 
while  you have it.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL


On Mon, Jan 4, 2016 at 2:26 PM, GandalfG8--- via  time-nuts 
<_time-nuts@febo.com_ (mailto:time-nuts@febo.com) > wrote:

>As  of 1725, 4th January, Lessay seems to have been transmitting   again
for
>at least 30 minutes, and showing the same or a  slightly  stronger  signal
>here on the west coast of  Scotland than  Anthorn.

Are you sure it's not UK trying to rig  something up for their eLoran  
trials
?

=

I'm pretty sure now  that's exactly what it was, and keeping my fingers
crossed it'll be  permanent once they finish  playing:-)

Regards

Nigel
GM8PZR

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Re: [time-nuts] Loran Europe Lessay seems to be back on air?

[paul swed]

Nigel
In the US at least for the eastern half of the country the test station has
been on lately for several weeks at a shot. Not exactly the old days but a
great resource besides GPS to check my various references and note offsets
and such using the austrons and SRS.
I would agree 1 db difference is nothing and its the same station.Enjoy it
while you have it.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Mon, Jan 4, 2016 at 2:26 PM, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts <
time-nuts@febo.com> wrote:

> >As of 1725, 4th January, Lessay seems to have been transmitting   again
> for
> >at least 30 minutes, and showing the same or a slightly  stronger  signal
> >here on the west coast of Scotland than  Anthorn.
>
> Are you sure it's not UK trying to rig something up for their eLoran trials
>  ?
>
> =
>
> I'm pretty sure now that's exactly what it was, and keeping my fingers
> crossed it'll be permanent once they finish playing:-)
>
> Regards
>
> Nigel
> GM8PZR
> ___
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Re: [time-nuts] Loran Europe Lessay seems to be back on air?

[paul swed]

But speculations half the fun.
Interesting chart.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Mon, Jan 4, 2016 at 7:03 PM, Pieter-Tjerk de Boer  wrote:

>
> On http://websdr.ewi.utwente.nl:8901/fullday/ , one can see that the extra
> LORAN signal has been on the air roughly from 16:26 till 17:30 UTC: the
> waterfall clearly shows that the total received power around 100 kHz was
> higher during that time.
>
> One also sees that just _before_ the start of the "extra" signal, the total
> power was _lower_ than the "usual" value, implying that Anthorn (which is
> now the strongest signal here) was off-air; it seems to have been on the
> air only intermittently between 15:00 and 16:26 UTC.
>
> So whatever it was that happened this afternoon, it wasn't just the switch
> on of Lessay (if at all), something was (also) going on at Anthorn...
> That might be a hint that the extra signal also came from Anthorn, e.g.
> a dual-rate test. But this is of course just speculation.
>
> Regards,
>   Pieter-Tjerk, PA3FWM
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 04, 2016 at 02:19:29PM -0500, paul swed wrote:
> > I somewhat may guess its Anthorn.
> > My 2 cents from across the ocean.
> >
> > The Brits are pretty good about shutting things down. The fact that
> Anthorn
> > stayed operational was pretty odd even if you thought the new years
> parties
> > got in the way. Lets face it drink beer with friends or shut a
> transmitter
> > in some far away place. I know my choice.
> >
> > They can easily dual rate Anthorn. But then the signal level should be
> > equal.
> > On eLORAN tests in the US its a Master and the Y station. But its one
> > transmitter. The same transmitter has no problem with some other rate
> > running at the same time.
> >
> > Regards
> > Paul
> > WB8TSL
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Jan 4, 2016 at 1:19 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > 
> > > In message <576b98.2a1f5672.43bc0...@aol.com>, GandalfG8--- via
> time-nuts
> > > writes:
> > >
> > > >As of 1725, 4th January, Lessay seems to have been transmitting
> again for
> > > >at least 30 minutes, and showing the same or a slightly stronger
> signal
> > > >here on the west coast of Scotland than Anthorn.
> > >
> > > Are you sure it's not UK trying to rig something up for their eLoran
> > > trials ?
> > >
> > > --
> > > Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
> > > p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
> > > FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
> > > Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by
> incompetence.
> > > ___
> > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> > > To unsubscribe, go to
> > > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > > and follow the instructions there.
> > >
> > ___
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Re: [time-nuts] Loran Europe Lessay seems to be back on air?

[Pieter-Tjerk de Boer]

On http://websdr.ewi.utwente.nl:8901/fullday/ , one can see that the extra
LORAN signal has been on the air roughly from 16:26 till 17:30 UTC: the
waterfall clearly shows that the total received power around 100 kHz was
higher during that time.

One also sees that just _before_ the start of the "extra" signal, the total
power was _lower_ than the "usual" value, implying that Anthorn (which is
now the strongest signal here) was off-air; it seems to have been on the
air only intermittently between 15:00 and 16:26 UTC.

So whatever it was that happened this afternoon, it wasn't just the switch
on of Lessay (if at all), something was (also) going on at Anthorn...
That might be a hint that the extra signal also came from Anthorn, e.g.
a dual-rate test. But this is of course just speculation.

Regards,
  Pieter-Tjerk, PA3FWM



On Mon, Jan 04, 2016 at 02:19:29PM -0500, paul swed wrote:
> I somewhat may guess its Anthorn.
> My 2 cents from across the ocean.
> 
> The Brits are pretty good about shutting things down. The fact that Anthorn
> stayed operational was pretty odd even if you thought the new years parties
> got in the way. Lets face it drink beer with friends or shut a transmitter
> in some far away place. I know my choice.
> 
> They can easily dual rate Anthorn. But then the signal level should be
> equal.
> On eLORAN tests in the US its a Master and the Y station. But its one
> transmitter. The same transmitter has no problem with some other rate
> running at the same time.
> 
> Regards
> Paul
> WB8TSL
> 
> 
> On Mon, Jan 4, 2016 at 1:19 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp 
> wrote:
> 
> > 
> > In message <576b98.2a1f5672.43bc0...@aol.com>, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts
> > writes:
> >
> > >As of 1725, 4th January, Lessay seems to have been transmitting  again for
> > >at least 30 minutes, and showing the same or a slightly stronger  signal
> > >here on the west coast of Scotland than Anthorn.
> >
> > Are you sure it's not UK trying to rig something up for their eLoran
> > trials ?
> >
> > --
> > Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
> > p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
> > FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
> > Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
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Re: [time-nuts] Loran Europe Lessay seems to be back on air?

[Alan Melia]

If I remember correctly the GLA(Trinity Ho.) has a contact with Babcock who 
run Anthorn which goes through to 2019 or 2020. The notice to mariners did 
not mention Anthorn but it did request that nav. receivers be turned off. If 
TH terminate that contact they will presumably have to pay Babcock anyway so 
they may as well continue "playing". From the papers it would seem the North 
Sea study has been completed.


I am just surprised that, naively, they did not get assurance from the 
French that they would keep Lessay running, because the move to eLoran was 
very much promoted by the French though they did not get a lot of support 
from other European countries.


I remember being told by a senior member of the RIN that he thought it was a 
"dead duck" and a waste of money.


Alan
G3NYK
- Original Message - 
From: "GandalfG8--- via time-nuts" <time-nuts@febo.com>

To: <time-nuts@febo.com>
Sent: Monday, January 04, 2016 7:26 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Loran Europe Lessay seems to be back on air?



>As of 1725, 4th January, Lessay seems to have been transmitting   again
for

at least 30 minutes, and showing the same or a slightly  stronger  signal
here on the west coast of Scotland than  Anthorn.


Are you sure it's not UK trying to rig something up for their eLoran 
trials

?

=

I'm pretty sure now that's exactly what it was, and keeping my fingers
crossed it'll be permanent once they finish playing:-)

Regards

Nigel
GM8PZR
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[time-nuts] Loran Europe Lessay seems to be back on air?

[GandalfG8--- via time-nuts]

As of 1725, 4th January, Lessay seems to have been transmitting  again for 
at least 30 minutes, and showing the same or a slightly stronger  signal 
here on the west coast of Scotland than Anthorn.
 
I've never seen this before, Anthorn is much closer and has always been a  
stronger signal so I'm quite intrigued, and tempted to wonder whether  
Anthorn is now also transmitting the master signal.
 
Regards
 
Nigel
GM8PZR
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Re: [time-nuts] Loran Europe Lessay seems to be back on air?

[GandalfG8--- via time-nuts]

Definitely something unusual going on, overall signal level as monitored on 
 an SDR is significantly lower than normal and seems to have dropped out 
from  time to time, and as of approximately 1750 the master signal is no 
longer  present.
 
Regards
 
Nigel
GM8PZR
 
 
In a message dated 04/01/2016 17:26:06 GMT Standard Time, gandal...@aol.com 
 writes:

As of 1725, 4th January, Lessay seems to have been transmitting  again for 
at least 30 minutes, and showing the same or a slightly stronger  signal 
here on the west coast of Scotland than Anthorn.
 
I've never seen this before, Anthorn is much closer and has always been a  
stronger signal so I'm quite intrigued, and tempted to  wonder whether 
Anthorn is now also transmitting the master signal.
 
Regards
 
Nigel
GM8PZR

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[time-nuts] Loran-C Norway/France/Germany shutdown

[John Seamons]

Looks like Sylt went off-air in addition to the Norway and France stations. 
Perhaps it is not a permanent decommissioning.
http://www.jks.com/signals/loran/LV.shutdown1.jpg

The above capture from the Loran-C Live Grabber site of Markus Vester, DF6NM:
http://www.df6nm.bplaced.net/LoranView/LoranGrabber.htm

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Re: [time-nuts] Loran-C Norway/France/Germany shutdown

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

In message , John Seamons writes:

>Looks like Sylt went off-air in addition to the Norway and France
>stations. Perhaps it is not a permanent decommissioning.

Yup, I have all NELS LORSTAs off the air here.

But interestingly Anthorn, 6731Y, is still up.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
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Re: [time-nuts] Loran-C Europe

[paul swed]

Yes indeed interesting that Anthorn's going at 0300 UTC.
Our friends in the UK celebrating perhaps? Or something else cooking?
You only need one station for frequency with the ole austrons.
By the way when I could get lock it was the Lessay station 6371 I think.
Only ever did that in the winter and when the sun was down in both
locations. It was tough.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Thu, Dec 31, 2015 at 9:07 PM, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts <
time-nuts@febo.com> wrote:

> As far as I can tell, in the 6731 chain there is just one  station still
> operating, this at 0200 on 1st January 2016.
>
> My FS700s are reporting no master found so Lessay has gone, and I suspect
> Soustons also.
> Without the master I'm not seeing any identification of the one station I'm
>  now receiving but I'm sure from its monitored signal that it's Anthorn.
> Let's hope this one keeps going for a while.
>
> Regards, and best wishes to all for 2016
>
> Nigel
> GM8PZR
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Re: [time-nuts] Loran-C Norway/France/Germany shutdown

[GandalfG8--- via time-nuts]

Looks like Sylt went off-air in addition to the Norway and France stations.
Perhaps it is not a permanent decommissioning.


 
It might just be coincidence, but at around 0145 on Jan 1st the  Sylt web 
site link on the Loran-C Europe web site was reporting a 404 not found  
error:-(
 
Regards
 
Nigel
GM8PZR
 
 
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Re: [time-nuts] Loran-C Norway/France/Germany shutdown

[Thomas S. Knutsen]

FWIW, Loran-C at Jan-Mayen was shut down at 1200NT (1100UTC).
Info from: http://jan.mayen.no/nyheter/en-aera-er-forbi/

I will check with a friend at Bø station on monday regarding the rest of
the norwegian stations.

BR.
Thomas.

2016-01-01 3:16 GMT+01:00 GandalfG8--- via time-nuts :

>
> Looks like Sylt went off-air in addition to the Norway and France stations.
> Perhaps it is not a permanent decommissioning.
>
> 
>
> It might just be coincidence, but at around 0145 on Jan 1st the  Sylt web
> site link on the Loran-C Europe web site was reporting a 404 not found
> error:-(
>
> Regards
>
> Nigel
> GM8PZR
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Loran-C Norway/France/Germany shutdown

[paul swed]

Here is a comment I had made on one thread.
Yes indeed interesting that Anthorn's going at 0300 UTC.
Our friends in the UK celebrating perhaps? Or something else cooking?
You only need one station for frequency with the ole austrons.
By the way when I could get lock it was the Lessay station 6371 I think.
Only ever did that in the winter and when the sun was down in both
locations. It was tough.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Thu, Dec 31, 2015 at 9:16 PM, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts <
time-nuts@febo.com> wrote:

>
> Looks like Sylt went off-air in addition to the Norway and France stations.
> Perhaps it is not a permanent decommissioning.
>
> 
>
> It might just be coincidence, but at around 0145 on Jan 1st the  Sylt web
> site link on the Loran-C Europe web site was reporting a 404 not found
> error:-(
>
> Regards
>
> Nigel
> GM8PZR
>
>
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>
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[time-nuts] Loran-C Europe

[GandalfG8--- via time-nuts]

As far as I can tell, in the 6731 chain there is just one  station still 
operating, this at 0200 on 1st January 2016.
 
My FS700s are reporting no master found so Lessay has gone, and I suspect  
Soustons also.
Without the master I'm not seeing any identification of the one station I'm 
 now receiving but I'm sure from its monitored signal that it's Anthorn.
Let's hope this one keeps going for a while.
 
Regards, and best wishes to all for 2016
 
Nigel
GM8PZR
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Re: [time-nuts] LORAN on the air 89700 been a good day so far

[Alexander Pummer]

Hi Bill,
it is very dependent which is closer to the receiver
here in the Bay Area sometimes you can't hear local AM stations either.
73
Alex KJ6UHN

On 7/21/2015 3:15 PM, billriches wrote:

Hi Alex,

100 Khz is not protected however the interference from SMPS is annoying but
will not bother loran transmissions as it is much stronger than that
interference.

73,

Bill, WA2DVU

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Alex Pummer
Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2015 11:58 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] LORAN on the air 89700 been a good day so far



Hi Bill ,
is the Loran frequency 100kHz protected? because there are may switching
mode power supplies which generate lots of Loran replacementsthe same is
with wwvb 's 60kHz
73
Alex KJ6UHN

On 7/21/2015 4:26 AM, billriches wrote:

Alex - are you referring to the test of eloran in progress from Wildwood

NJ?

That of course is on 100 Khz.  There is no Loran in California at this

time.

73,

Bill, WA2DVU
Cape May

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Alex
Pummer
Sent: Monday, July 20, 2015 9:03 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] LORAN on the air 89700 been a good day so far

Hi Paul
where could I find the frequency of our Loran [the Californian Loran
] I have an old HP3586 radio receiver
73
Alex

llow the instructions there.


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Re: [time-nuts] LORAN on the air 89700 been a good day so far

[billriches]

Alex - are you referring to the test of eloran in progress from Wildwood NJ?
That of course is on 100 Khz.  There is no Loran in California at this time.

73,

Bill, WA2DVU
Cape May

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Alex Pummer
Sent: Monday, July 20, 2015 9:03 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] LORAN on the air 89700 been a good day so far

Hi Paul
where could I find the frequency of our Loran [the Californian Loran ] I
have an old HP3586 radio receiver
73
Alex

llow the instructions there.


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Re: [time-nuts] LORAN on the air 89700 been a good day so far

[paul swed]

Several answers
I am located in boston ma

How do I know its the 3586. All other systems are working and not failing.
Using the same austron 2100 with another stable reference source has no
problem.

Alex there is only 1 station on the east coast the gri is 89700. But simply
tune the 3586 to 100 Khz. Not to likely you will hear the pulses.
Sorry for the brief answer
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL


On Mon, Jul 20, 2015 at 9:02 PM, Alex Pummer a...@pcscons.com wrote:

 Hi Paul
 where could I find the frequency of our Loran [the Californian Loran ] I
 have an old HP3586 radio receiver
 73
 Alex


 On 7/20/2015 1:50 PM, paul swed wrote:

 The system came up at 9 am and has been working well the austrons and SRS
 fs 700 are doing very well. Some static crashes and such.

 This test has however revealed something I did not want to know. The HP
 z3801 seems to have a problem of jumping phase. So the trusty box is
 finally showing its age. It will be quite a job to dig into.
 Regards
 Paul.
 WB8TSL
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Re: [time-nuts] LORAN on the air 89700 been a good day so far

[Bob Camp]

Hi

The Loran-C frequency allocation is standard pretty much over the entire globe. 

Switching power supply noise will eventually take out all RF communication …

Bob

 On Jul 21, 2015, at 11:58 AM, Alex Pummer a...@pcscons.com wrote:
 
 
 
 Hi Bill ,
 is the Loran frequency 100kHz protected? because there are may switching mode 
 power supplies which generate lots of Loran replacementsthe same is with wwvb 
 's 60kHz
 73
 Alex KJ6UHN
 
 On 7/21/2015 4:26 AM, billriches wrote:
 Alex - are you referring to the test of eloran in progress from Wildwood NJ?
 That of course is on 100 Khz.  There is no Loran in California at this time.
 
 73,
 
 Bill, WA2DVU
 Cape May
 
 -Original Message-
 From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Alex Pummer
 Sent: Monday, July 20, 2015 9:03 PM
 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] LORAN on the air 89700 been a good day so far
 
 Hi Paul
 where could I find the frequency of our Loran [the Californian Loran ] I
 have an old HP3586 radio receiver
 73
 Alex
 
 llow the instructions there.
 
 
 ---
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Re: [time-nuts] LORAN on the air 89700 been a good day so far

[Alex Pummer]

Hi Bill ,
is the Loran frequency 100kHz protected? because there are may switching 
mode power supplies which generate lots of Loran replacementsthe same is 
with wwvb 's 60kHz

73
Alex KJ6UHN

On 7/21/2015 4:26 AM, billriches wrote:

Alex - are you referring to the test of eloran in progress from Wildwood NJ?
That of course is on 100 Khz.  There is no Loran in California at this time.

73,

Bill, WA2DVU
Cape May

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Alex Pummer
Sent: Monday, July 20, 2015 9:03 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] LORAN on the air 89700 been a good day so far

Hi Paul
where could I find the frequency of our Loran [the Californian Loran ] I
have an old HP3586 radio receiver
73
Alex

llow the instructions there.


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Re: [time-nuts] LORAN on the air 89700 been a good day so far

[billriches]

Hi Alex,

100 Khz is not protected however the interference from SMPS is annoying but
will not bother loran transmissions as it is much stronger than that
interference.

73,

Bill, WA2DVU

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Alex Pummer
Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2015 11:58 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] LORAN on the air 89700 been a good day so far



Hi Bill ,
is the Loran frequency 100kHz protected? because there are may switching
mode power supplies which generate lots of Loran replacementsthe same is
with wwvb 's 60kHz
73
Alex KJ6UHN

On 7/21/2015 4:26 AM, billriches wrote:
 Alex - are you referring to the test of eloran in progress from Wildwood
NJ?
 That of course is on 100 Khz.  There is no Loran in California at this
time.

 73,

 Bill, WA2DVU
 Cape May

 -Original Message-
 From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Alex 
 Pummer
 Sent: Monday, July 20, 2015 9:03 PM
 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] LORAN on the air 89700 been a good day so far

 Hi Paul
 where could I find the frequency of our Loran [the Californian Loran 
 ] I have an old HP3586 radio receiver
 73
 Alex

 llow the instructions there.


 ---
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[time-nuts] LORAN on the air at 0900 local 1300 UTC 89700

[paul swed]

Regards
Paul.
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[time-nuts] LORAN on the air 89700 been a good day so far

[paul swed]

The system came up at 9 am and has been working well the austrons and SRS
fs 700 are doing very well. Some static crashes and such.

This test has however revealed something I did not want to know. The HP
z3801 seems to have a problem of jumping phase. So the trusty box is
finally showing its age. It will be quite a job to dig into.
Regards
Paul.
WB8TSL
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Re: [time-nuts] LORAN on the air 89700 been a good day so far

[billriches]

Thanks for your report Paul,  What is your QTH?

73,

Bill

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of paul swed
Sent: Monday, July 20, 2015 4:50 PM
To: Time-nuts
Subject: [time-nuts] LORAN on the air 89700 been a good day so far

The system came up at 9 am and has been working well the austrons and SRS fs
700 are doing very well. Some static crashes and such.

This test has however revealed something I did not want to know. The HP
z3801 seems to have a problem of jumping phase. So the trusty box is finally
showing its age. It will be quite a job to dig into.
Regards
Paul.
WB8TSL
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Re: [time-nuts] LORAN on the air 89700 been a good day so far

[Alex Pummer]

Hi Paul
where could I find the frequency of our Loran [the Californian Loran ] 
I have an old HP3586 radio receiver

73
Alex

On 7/20/2015 1:50 PM, paul swed wrote:

The system came up at 9 am and has been working well the austrons and SRS
fs 700 are doing very well. Some static crashes and such.

This test has however revealed something I did not want to know. The HP
z3801 seems to have a problem of jumping phase. So the trusty box is
finally showing its age. It will be quite a job to dig into.
Regards
Paul.
WB8TSL
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Re: [time-nuts] LORAN on the air 89700 been a good day so far

[Bob Camp]

Hi

Before you *assume* the 3801 is the problem, check and see if the Loran signal 
is 
hopping around. Who knows what they might be doing on the transmit end ….

Exactly *how* you check the Loran other than finding somebody else on the list 
… no idea. 

Bob

 On Jul 20, 2015, at 4:50 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 The system came up at 9 am and has been working well the austrons and SRS
 fs 700 are doing very well. Some static crashes and such.
 
 This test has however revealed something I did not want to know. The HP
 z3801 seems to have a problem of jumping phase. So the trusty box is
 finally showing its age. It will be quite a job to dig into.
 Regards
 Paul.
 WB8TSL
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Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...

[billriches]

FYI Wildwood eLoran will be fired up 1300Z Saturday (today) and 1900Z Monday
thru Thursday.  Happy listening.  Any reports would be appreciated and I
will pass them along to the engineer that is driving the train.

73,

Bill, WA2DVU
Cape Mahy

-Original Message-
From: billriches [mailto:bill.ric...@verizon.net] 
Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2015 10:04 PM
To: 'billriches'; 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
Subject: RE: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...


FYI GRI for Wildwood is 8970.

Bill, WA2DVU
Cape May


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Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...

[billriches]

Correction on times for Mon - thurs - start 900 edst - 1300Z


-Original Message-
From: billriches [mailto:bill.ric...@verizon.net] 
Sent: Saturday, July 18, 2015 7:05 AM
To: 'billriches'; 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
Subject: RE: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...

FYI Wildwood eLoran will be fired up 1300Z Saturday (today) and 1300Z Monday
thru Thursday.  Happy listening.  Any reports would be appreciated and I
will pass them along to the engineer that is driving the train.

73,

Bill, WA2DVU
Cape Mahy

-Original Message-
From: billriches [mailto:bill.ric...@verizon.net]
Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2015 10:04 PM
To: 'billriches'; 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
Subject: RE: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...


FYI GRI for Wildwood is 8970.

Bill, WA2DVU
Cape May


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Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...

[paul swed]

OK LORAN is on the air up in Boston.
I had just turned off various equipment this morning.
So starting it back up after testing it yesterday.
Lots of large static crashes.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Sat, Jul 18, 2015 at 7:04 AM, billriches bill.ric...@verizon.net wrote:

 FYI Wildwood eLoran will be fired up 1300Z Saturday (today) and 1900Z
 Monday
 thru Thursday.  Happy listening.  Any reports would be appreciated and I
 will pass them along to the engineer that is driving the train.

 73,

 Bill, WA2DVU
 Cape Mahy

 -Original Message-
 From: billriches [mailto:bill.ric...@verizon.net]
 Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2015 10:04 PM
 To: 'billriches'; 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
 Subject: RE: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...


 FYI GRI for Wildwood is 8970.

 Bill, WA2DVU
 Cape May


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Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...

[Scott McGrath]

What GRI is in use I'll fire up my austron as well Central NH location

Content by Scott
Typos by Siri

 On Jul 18, 2015, at 1:42 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 Bill I will let you know what the Austrons say for signal level. Fact is
 they locked up fast.
 My FS700 is taking its time.
 
 Graham it will sound different as there are no competing stations on other
 GRIs. Thats the very first thing that hits you. Additionally its only 1
 station. But that same station is sending the master and secondary delayed
 emission. Its simply not the same ole sound. But it still works very well
 for checking frequency.
 
 Regards
 Paul
 WB8TSL
 
 On Sat, Jul 18, 2015 at 12:52 PM, billriches bill.ric...@verizon.net
 wrote:
 
 Correction on times for Mon - thurs - start 900 edst - 1300Z
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: billriches [mailto:bill.ric...@verizon.net]
 Sent: Saturday, July 18, 2015 7:05 AM
 To: 'billriches'; 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
 Subject: RE: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...
 
 FYI Wildwood eLoran will be fired up 1300Z Saturday (today) and 1300Z
 Monday
 thru Thursday.  Happy listening.  Any reports would be appreciated and I
 will pass them along to the engineer that is driving the train.
 
 73,
 
 Bill, WA2DVU
 Cape Mahy
 
 -Original Message-
 From: billriches [mailto:bill.ric...@verizon.net]
 Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2015 10:04 PM
 To: 'billriches'; 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
 Subject: RE: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...
 
 
 FYI GRI for Wildwood is 8970.
 
 Bill, WA2DVU
 Cape May
 
 
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Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...

[billriches]

Hi Paul - how do you figure boston?  The only station up is Wildwood, NJ

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of paul swed
Sent: Saturday, July 18, 2015 1:15 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...

OK LORAN is on the air up in Boston.
I had just turned off various equipment this morning.
So starting it back up after testing it yesterday.
Lots of large static crashes.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Sat, Jul 18, 2015 at 7:04 AM, billriches bill.ric...@verizon.net wrote:

 FYI Wildwood eLoran will be fired up 1300Z Saturday (today) and 1900Z 
 Monday thru Thursday.  Happy listening.  Any reports would be 
 appreciated and I will pass them along to the engineer that is driving 
 the train.

 73,

 Bill, WA2DVU
 Cape Mahy

 -Original Message-
 From: billriches [mailto:bill.ric...@verizon.net]
 Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2015 10:04 PM
 To: 'billriches'; 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
 Subject: RE: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...


 FYI GRI for Wildwood is 8970.

 Bill, WA2DVU
 Cape May


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Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...

[paul swed]

Bill I will let you know what the Austrons say for signal level. Fact is
they locked up fast.
My FS700 is taking its time.

Graham it will sound different as there are no competing stations on other
GRIs. Thats the very first thing that hits you. Additionally its only 1
station. But that same station is sending the master and secondary delayed
emission. Its simply not the same ole sound. But it still works very well
for checking frequency.

Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Sat, Jul 18, 2015 at 12:52 PM, billriches bill.ric...@verizon.net
wrote:

 Correction on times for Mon - thurs - start 900 edst - 1300Z


 -Original Message-
 From: billriches [mailto:bill.ric...@verizon.net]
 Sent: Saturday, July 18, 2015 7:05 AM
 To: 'billriches'; 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
 Subject: RE: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...

 FYI Wildwood eLoran will be fired up 1300Z Saturday (today) and 1300Z
 Monday
 thru Thursday.  Happy listening.  Any reports would be appreciated and I
 will pass them along to the engineer that is driving the train.

 73,

 Bill, WA2DVU
 Cape Mahy

 -Original Message-
 From: billriches [mailto:bill.ric...@verizon.net]
 Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2015 10:04 PM
 To: 'billriches'; 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
 Subject: RE: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...


 FYI GRI for Wildwood is 8970.

 Bill, WA2DVU
 Cape May


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Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...

[Graham]

As expected, loud and clear near Ottawa Canada, approximately 380 
nautical miles.


It does sound different from my recollection of Loran. However, this is 
only one station transmitting where as before it would have been several 
at the same time with different GRI's.


cheers, Graham ve3gtc



On 2015-07-18 11:04, billriches wrote:

FYI Wildwood eLoran will be fired up 1300Z Saturday (today) and 1900Z Monday
thru Thursday.  Happy listening.  Any reports would be appreciated and I
will pass them along to the engineer that is driving the train.

73,

Bill, WA2DVU
Cape Mahy

-Original Message-
From: billriches [mailto:bill.ric...@verizon.net]
Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2015 10:04 PM
To: 'billriches'; 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
Subject: RE: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...


FYI GRI for Wildwood is 8970.

Bill, WA2DVU
Cape May


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Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...

[Brian Inglis]

Look at how well a couple of projects have gone:

o  privatize NIST NTP server operation - the NTP pool is recommended everywhere
and good enough for most; separate providers supply high accuracy, precision,
and stability timing for financial markets internationally; and GPS serves the 
rest

o  provide WWVB PM decoders - older precision timing equipment no longer works; 
but
compatibility for RC Atomic clocks and watches was maintained; does not appear
that there is any commercial interest in developing decoders; the new PM 
features
might as well be dropped, or they could go back to the old AM format.

See also the UT1 NTP service 
http://www.nist.gov/pml/div688/grp40/ut1_ntp_description.cfm
which states it will use IERS schedule A data, and may offer only the weekly 
official
projections rather than the daily rapid predictions, which vary by 0.1ms; they 
also
mention providing DUT1 and EOP data as a text string from a separate service.
They may be looking at this for a UTC like backup if the ITU drops the 
leapsecond.

But the US, EU, Russia, China, and Japan can each afford a GNSS constellation,
with upgraded features as desired.
If a country can not provide an adequate market for products, then they will 
have to
either do without a backup, ormake do with what markets elsewhere demand - 
eLoran.

OTOH the civil business focus of currently successful projects leads me to hope 
that the
ITU will be told to leave UTC alone as a legal and political requirement for 
solar civil
time, use TAI or GPS time if they want to keep to a uniform time scale, or come 
up with
a better time scale of their own.

--
Take care. Thanks, Brian Inglis


On 2015-07-14 16:49, Bob Camp wrote:

Not to be to much of a downer here but …..

Loran for timing and an “Eastern WWVB” are two projects that seem to each have a
life of their own. They seem to come up on some sort of cycle related to sun 
spots.
Both have zero (or possibly less than that) percent mind share among those who
would need to implement them into systems. Since there is major cost on the 
systems
end, it would take “mandatory use” legislation to get them designed in. Without 
those
design in’s, *having* a backup system is pretty useless. You are talking about 
billions of
dollars and years of effort to hook them up ….

If you are talking about “infinite budget” military systems, some of that may 
happen. I
notice in the papers that “infinite budget” does not seem to apply to the US 
DOD these
days. For commercial systems, nobody will significantly cut into profits to do 
something like this.

Should they do this - sure. Will they do it - nope.



On Jul 14, 2015, at 4:49 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote:



The reason to stay with the LORAN C style pulses is very very simple. It
allows our time-nuts Austrons and SRS to work. Its the only way I get any
of my tax dollars back. :-)
The good news is no official government person reads time-nuts.



On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 12:16 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp p...@phk.freebsd.dk
wrote:



In message 55a4ac81.1030...@rubidium.dyndns.org, Magnus Danielson
writes:

The safety is
relative, in that it takes quite a bit of more infrastructure compared
to the jamming of GPS, and that lies in the wavelength of the signal
than anything else.


If the goal is a reliable backup for GPS, there are smarter ways to
use the 100kHz band than Loran-C pulses, and there really isn't much
reason to stay compatible with Loran-C receivers.

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Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...

[David McGaw]

Loran-C had absolute accuracy to 500nS but repeatability much better, 
usually to about 20 meters position or 60 nS (if you mark the position 
of a buoy you can get back to it very closely).  eLoran is a significant 
improvement and appears to be able to get to 8 meters absolute position 
or about 25 nS timing.  Each transmitter would have its own cesium clock 
instead of the slaves relying on the master and propagation corrections 
would be cataloged and disseminated.


David N1HAC


On 7/15/15 12:29 PM, paul swed wrote:

John
I don't know if there was. But the timing receivers like the Austrons and
SRS could really derive very accurate frequencies especially if you lived
60 miles from the transmitter. :-)
Regards
Paul.
WB8TSL

On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 4:23 AM, John C. Westmoreland, P.E. 
j...@westmorelandengineering.com wrote:


Time-Nuts,

Was better than 500 nS accuracy ever achieved with Loran?

73's,
John Westmoreland
AJ6BC


On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 10:18 PM, Dale Cannon dalec...@cfl.rr.com wrote:


Folks,



I know that there is a longing for LORAN-C to return, but this weekend, I
did a Google Maps flyover of each of the US LORAN-C stations (takes less
than an hour). Almost all of the antennas are gone and there are no cars

in

the parking lots (except at Seneca which became an Army depot). This

means

that the equipment is probably gone, too. Or maybe this stuff will show

up

at auction or on E-Bay and that would solve the Austron receiver

problem..



 Dale Cannon, KS4FA







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Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

In message 07538A701D6E4F8D804BD567DD794693@gnat, Alan Melia writes:

I mean that a Loran-C signal designed as I proposed in a previous
email would not do that, because it wouldn't have the groups and
GRI-peridodicties which cause the splatter up and down the band.

It just depends what you mean by that :-) I could lock to Lessay and Anthorn 
at frequencies in the 136kHz amateur band, using some S/N DSP software 
writen by Peter Matinez G3PLX.

If you look at the spectral width of the existing Loran-C (or
similar) waveform, it’s a massive thing. You would have a hard time
coming up with something that spreads more crud around the VLF range.

 The reason Loran-C spreads crud is *only* the combinationa of the
 pulse-groups and the periodicity of the GRI.

 The pulses themselves are entirely contained inside the allocated
 frequency band.


-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
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Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...

[Bob Camp]

Hi

I think the WWVB PM stuff is relevant to Loran in the US. We have (pretty much) 
the most
involved group of “customers” for that signal here on the list. As far as I 
have seen, the only
project that has gone past the talk stage is the converter to drive the old(er) 
WWVB gear. 
Even with our level of interest, there are no working decoder projects out 
there. We may not
be the main target audience, but we are the ones most likely to toss together a 
home built
receiver. 

Dropping something like Loran into an already working system faces the same 
sort of 
barriers. If the system is working (now) - why bother? If it’s not working, do 
the minimum 
cost (time / risk / labor) fix for the issue. Explaining to the boss why the 
(say) 5X higher cost
solution is the one you picked is not going to get very far. Giving the same 
explanation to 
grandmother (when her bill goes up)  is going to be a bit harder still. 

I would not be surprised if the number of GPS equipped devices US exceeded the 
population by
some signifiant factor. They get used. The total population of Loran gear that 
was in use (not in 
storage, not in a rack powered down) in the US in 2000 probably would fit in my 
garage. The market
speaks…..

Bob

 On Jul 15, 2015, at 10:33 PM, Brian Inglis brian.ing...@systematicsw.ab.ca 
 wrote:
 
 Look at how well a couple of projects have gone:
 
 o  privatize NIST NTP server operation - the NTP pool is recommended 
 everywhere
 and good enough for most; separate providers supply high accuracy, precision,
 and stability timing for financial markets internationally; and GPS serves 
 the rest
 
 o  provide WWVB PM decoders - older precision timing equipment no longer 
 works; but
 compatibility for RC Atomic clocks and watches was maintained; does not 
 appear
 that there is any commercial interest in developing decoders; the new PM 
 features
 might as well be dropped, or they could go back to the old AM format.
 
 See also the UT1 NTP service 
 http://www.nist.gov/pml/div688/grp40/ut1_ntp_description.cfm
 which states it will use IERS schedule A data, and may offer only the weekly 
 official
 projections rather than the daily rapid predictions, which vary by 0.1ms; 
 they also
 mention providing DUT1 and EOP data as a text string from a separate service.
 They may be looking at this for a UTC like backup if the ITU drops the 
 leapsecond.
 
 But the US, EU, Russia, China, and Japan can each afford a GNSS constellation,
 with upgraded features as desired.
 If a country can not provide an adequate market for products, then they will 
 have to
 either do without a backup, ormake do with what markets elsewhere demand - 
 eLoran.
 
 OTOH the civil business focus of currently successful projects leads me to 
 hope that the
 ITU will be told to leave UTC alone as a legal and political requirement for 
 solar civil
 time, use TAI or GPS time if they want to keep to a uniform time scale, or 
 come up with
 a better time scale of their own.
 
 -- 
 Take care. Thanks, Brian Inglis
 
 
 On 2015-07-14 16:49, Bob Camp wrote:
 Not to be to much of a downer here but …..
 
 Loran for timing and an “Eastern WWVB” are two projects that seem to each 
 have a
 life of their own. They seem to come up on some sort of cycle related to sun 
 spots.
 Both have zero (or possibly less than that) percent mind share among those 
 who
 would need to implement them into systems. Since there is major cost on the 
 systems
 end, it would take “mandatory use” legislation to get them designed in. 
 Without those
 design in’s, *having* a backup system is pretty useless. You are talking 
 about billions of
 dollars and years of effort to hook them up ….
 
 If you are talking about “infinite budget” military systems, some of that 
 may happen. I
 notice in the papers that “infinite budget” does not seem to apply to the US 
 DOD these
 days. For commercial systems, nobody will significantly cut into profits to 
 do something like this.
 
 Should they do this - sure. Will they do it - nope.
 
 On Jul 14, 2015, at 4:49 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 The reason to stay with the LORAN C style pulses is very very simple. It
 allows our time-nuts Austrons and SRS to work. Its the only way I get any
 of my tax dollars back. :-)
 The good news is no official government person reads time-nuts.
 
 On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 12:16 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp p...@phk.freebsd.dk
 wrote:
 
 In message 55a4ac81.1030...@rubidium.dyndns.org, Magnus Danielson
 writes:
 The safety is
 relative, in that it takes quite a bit of more infrastructure compared
 to the jamming of GPS, and that lies in the wavelength of the signal
 than anything else.
 
 If the goal is a reliable backup for GPS, there are smarter ways to
 use the 100kHz band than Loran-C pulses, and there really isn't much
 reason to stay compatible with Loran-C receivers.
 ___
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Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...

[billriches]

No sigs yet - I am friends with the tech at Wildwood and also have a monitor 
(with squelch) on the fx.  Will advise list when they fire up.

73,

Bill, WA2DVU
Cape May, NJ - Just a few miles away from Wildwood.

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of David McGaw
Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2015 11:32 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...

The word is that eLoran IS on in the US from Wildwood as of June 19.  
Has anyone noticed the signal?

http://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/news/loran-navigation-signal-back-on-and-better-than-before/article_21d19298-16d0-11e5-9a69-1343edc2e90b.html

There is also a bill in the US House to reinstate Loran-C as eLoran.

David N1HAC


On 7/14/15 6:49 PM, Bob Camp wrote:
 Hi

 Not to be to much of a downer here but …..

 Loran for timing and an “Eastern WWVB” are two projects that seem to 
 each have a life of their own. They seem to come up on some sort of cycle 
 related to sun spots.
 Both have zero (or possibly less than that) percent mind share among 
 those who would need to implement them into systems. Since there is 
 major cost on the systems end, it would take “mandatory use” 
 legislation to get them designed in. Without those design in’s, 
 *having* a backup system is pretty useless. You are talking about billions of 
 dollars and years of effort to hook them up ….

 If you are talking about “infinite budget” military systems, some of 
 that may happen. I notice in the papers that “infinite budget” does 
 not seem to apply to the US DOD these days. For commercial systems, nobody 
 will significantly cut into profits to do something like this.

 Should they do this - sure. Will they do it - nope.

 Bob

 On Jul 14, 2015, at 4:49 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote:

 Poul-Henning,
 The reason to stay with the LORAN C style pulses is very very simple. 
 It allows our time-nuts Austrons and SRS to work. Its the only way I 
 get any of my tax dollars back. :-) The good news is no official 
 government person reads time-nuts.
 Regards
 Paul


 On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 12:16 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp 
 p...@phk.freebsd.dk
 wrote:

 
 In message 55a4ac81.1030...@rubidium.dyndns.org, Magnus Danielson
 writes:

 The safety is
 relative, in that it takes quite a bit of more infrastructure 
 compared to the jamming of GPS, and that lies in the wavelength of 
 the signal than anything else.
 If the goal is a reliable backup for GPS, there are smarter ways to 
 use the 100kHz band than Loran-C pulses, and there really isn't much 
 reason to stay compatible with Loran-C receivers.

 --
 Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
 FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
 Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
 ___
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Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...

[billriches]

Station in Wildwood, California, and mid west are sort of intact.

Bill, WA2DVU

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Dale Cannon
Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2015 1:18 AM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...

Folks,

 

I know that there is a longing for LORAN-C to return, but this weekend, I
did a Google Maps flyover of each of the US LORAN-C stations (takes less
than an hour). Almost all of the antennas are gone and there are no cars in
the parking lots (except at Seneca which became an Army depot). This means
that the equipment is probably gone, too. Or maybe this stuff will show up
at auction or on E-Bay and that would solve the Austron receiver problem..

 

Dale Cannon, KS4FA

 

 

 

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Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...

[Alan Melia]

It just depends what you mean by that :-) I could lock to Lessay and Anthorn 
at frequencies in the 136kHz amateur band, using some S/N DSP software 
writen by Peter Matinez G3PLX.


Alan
G3NYK
- Original Message - 
From: Poul-Henning Kamp p...@phk.freebsd.dk
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
time-nuts@febo.com; Bob Camp kb...@n1k.org

Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2015 7:41 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...




In message 3e8a4741-f565-4d2f-834f-62eca1ca1...@n1k.org, Bob Camp 
writes:



If you look at the spectral width of the existing Loran-C (or
similar) waveform, it’s a massive thing. You would have a hard time
coming up with something that spreads more crud around the VLF range.


The reason Loran-C spreads crud is *only* the combinationa of the
pulse-groups and the periodicity of the GRI.

The pulses themselves are entirely contained inside the allocated
frequency band.


--
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by 
incompetence.

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[time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...

[Dale Cannon]

Folks,

 

I know that there is a longing for LORAN-C to return, but this weekend, I
did a Google Maps flyover of each of the US LORAN-C stations (takes less
than an hour). Almost all of the antennas are gone and there are no cars in
the parking lots (except at Seneca which became an Army depot). This means
that the equipment is probably gone, too. Or maybe this stuff will show up
at auction or on E-Bay and that would solve the Austron receiver problem..

 

Dale Cannon, KS4FA

 

 

 

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Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...

[paul swed]

John
I don't know if there was. But the timing receivers like the Austrons and
SRS could really derive very accurate frequencies especially if you lived
60 miles from the transmitter. :-)
Regards
Paul.
WB8TSL

On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 4:23 AM, John C. Westmoreland, P.E. 
j...@westmorelandengineering.com wrote:

 Time-Nuts,

 Was better than 500 nS accuracy ever achieved with Loran?

 73's,
 John Westmoreland
 AJ6BC


 On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 10:18 PM, Dale Cannon dalec...@cfl.rr.com wrote:

  Folks,
 
 
 
  I know that there is a longing for LORAN-C to return, but this weekend, I
  did a Google Maps flyover of each of the US LORAN-C stations (takes less
  than an hour). Almost all of the antennas are gone and there are no cars
 in
  the parking lots (except at Seneca which became an Army depot). This
 means
  that the equipment is probably gone, too. Or maybe this stuff will show
 up
  at auction or on E-Bay and that would solve the Austron receiver
 problem..
 
 
 
  Dale Cannon, KS4FA
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

In message cad2jfai8ykhzqyci++pr8cezmgwy+fh3edusgwfysde50ff...@mail.gmail.com
, paul swed writes:

I don't know if there was. But the timing receivers like the Austrons and
SRS could really derive very accurate frequencies especially if you lived
60 miles from the transmitter. :-)

Distance makes a lot of difference.

Short is good, in particular if there is no major variable water
(lakes or groundwater) between you and the transmitter.

The only downside to really short distance is that the sky-wave
comes crashing down in no time, so tracking on the 3rd zero-crossing
is very important.

I have an animation showing typical skywaves at around 200km distance
from Sylt here:

http://phk.freebsd.dk/AducLoran/animation2.gif

When skywaves are bad, they are as high or higher amplitude as the
grounwave and arrive earlier than usual, but I have not managed to
capture that and the capture process I use is to resource intensive
to run constantly.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
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Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...

[Doug Ronald]

 Speaking of which, here is a  typical Loran-C item the government is selling 
 for virtually scrap prices. There are a couple of these big-boy feedthroughs 
 in this sale alone:
http://www.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=9831977

-Doug W6DSR

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Dale Cannon
Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2015 10:18 PM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...

Folks,

I know that there is a longing for LORAN-C to return, but this weekend, I did a 
Google Maps flyover of each of the US LORAN-C stations (takes less than an 
hour). Almost all of the antennas are gone and there are no cars in the parking 
lots (except at Seneca which became an Army depot). This means that the 
equipment is probably gone, too. Or maybe this stuff will show up at auction or 
on E-Bay and that would solve the Austron receiver problem..

Dale Cannon, KS4FA

 

 

 

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Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

In message 3e8a4741-f565-4d2f-834f-62eca1ca1...@n1k.org, Bob Camp writes:

If you look at the spectral width of the existing Loran-C (or
similar) waveform, it’s a massive thing. You would have a hard time
coming up with something that spreads more crud around the VLF range.

The reason Loran-C spreads crud is *only* the combinationa of the
pulse-groups and the periodicity of the GRI.

The pulses themselves are entirely contained inside the allocated
frequency band.


-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
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Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Time-Nuts,

Was better than 500 nS accuracy ever achieved with Loran?

73's,
John Westmoreland
AJ6BC


On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 10:18 PM, Dale Cannon dalec...@cfl.rr.com wrote:

 Folks,



 I know that there is a longing for LORAN-C to return, but this weekend, I
 did a Google Maps flyover of each of the US LORAN-C stations (takes less
 than an hour). Almost all of the antennas are gone and there are no cars in
 the parking lots (except at Seneca which became an Army depot). This means
 that the equipment is probably gone, too. Or maybe this stuff will show up
 at auction or on E-Bay and that would solve the Austron receiver problem..



 Dale Cannon, KS4FA







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Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...

[paul swed]

I did fire up the srs last week and did not here it?
I will fire up a LF receiver and listen. Perhaps my preamp is sick.
Regards
Paul.

On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 11:32 PM, David McGaw n1...@dartmouth.edu wrote:

 The word is that eLoran IS on in the US from Wildwood as of June 19.  Has
 anyone noticed the signal?


 http://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/news/loran-navigation-signal-back-on-and-better-than-before/article_21d19298-16d0-11e5-9a69-1343edc2e90b.html

 There is also a bill in the US House to reinstate Loran-C as eLoran.

 David N1HAC



 On 7/14/15 6:49 PM, Bob Camp wrote:

 Hi

 Not to be to much of a downer here but …..

 Loran for timing and an “Eastern WWVB” are two projects that seem to each
 have a
 life of their own. They seem to come up on some sort of cycle related to
 sun spots.
 Both have zero (or possibly less than that) percent mind share among
 those who
 would need to implement them into systems. Since there is major cost on
 the systems
 end, it would take “mandatory use” legislation to get them designed in.
 Without those
 design in’s, *having* a backup system is pretty useless. You are talking
 about billions of
 dollars and years of effort to hook them up ….

 If you are talking about “infinite budget” military systems, some of that
 may happen. I
 notice in the papers that “infinite budget” does not seem to apply to the
 US DOD these
 days. For commercial systems, nobody will significantly cut into profits
 to do something like this.

 Should they do this - sure. Will they do it - nope.

 Bob

  On Jul 14, 2015, at 4:49 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote:

 Poul-Henning,
 The reason to stay with the LORAN C style pulses is very very simple. It
 allows our time-nuts Austrons and SRS to work. Its the only way I get any
 of my tax dollars back. :-)
 The good news is no official government person reads time-nuts.
 Regards
 Paul


 On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 12:16 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp p...@phk.freebsd.dk
 wrote:

  
 In message 55a4ac81.1030...@rubidium.dyndns.org, Magnus Danielson
 writes:

  The safety is
 relative, in that it takes quite a bit of more infrastructure compared
 to the jamming of GPS, and that lies in the wavelength of the signal
 than anything else.

 If the goal is a reliable backup for GPS, there are smarter ways to
 use the 100kHz band than Loran-C pulses, and there really isn't much
 reason to stay compatible with Loran-C receivers.

 --
 Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
 FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
 Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by
 incompetence.
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Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

In message 73568e39-9467-4192-aeb8-c9c14a2bb...@n1k.org, Bob Camp writes:

I notice in the papers that “infinite budget” does not seem to
apply to the US DOD these days.

*cough* F-35 *cough* B61-mod12 *cough*

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
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Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...

[Magnus Danielson]

Hi,

There is indeed investigations going on about what the cost of receivers 
would be etc. A benefit of Loran-C is that relative jamming/spoofing 
resistance can be had without the need of opening up for keyed 
receivers. This helps for non-military and non-government operations. 
Now, there is tamper-proof GPS receivers that can use the keyed signal 
for increased signal stability, but I wonder to what degree they are 
deployed. Then, naturally the military can have use for these receivers. 
Work is in progress, but we do not yet know the outcome, but they do ask 
about what it would cost and what performance one would get. It will be 
interesting to follow.


While LORAN-C is sold as jamming/spooing resistant, that is based on 
the assumption that nobody would raise a 200 m tower undetected. True, 
but we now know that it was done for that purpose. The safety is 
relative, in that it takes quite a bit of more infrastructure compared 
to the jamming of GPS, and that lies in the wavelength of the signal 
than anything else.


Cheers,
Magnus

On 07/14/2015 04:56 AM, skipp Isaham via time-nuts wrote:

Does anyone know of any other genuinely useful purpose to which the
Austron 2100F, SRS FS700, etc receivers can be put in the US since the
demise of Loran?


I've heard Loran C in some form will be returning.  GPS is not jam proof and 
that
seems to have caught the attention of our government. Although some locations
have already been dismantled to some large degree, a hold that tiger has been
issued as the wheels have started to turn backwards and Loran C starts to make
a comeback.
cheers,
skipp
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Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...

[paul swed]

Skip
It certainly keeps trying to return. It will not be the navigation system
formerly known as Loran C (Wasn't that also some singer?) it will be
eLoran. Most eLORAN systems add an additional pulse for data. They stick
somewhat to the old format to avoid possible interference with operating
systems in Europe.
But it seems in general LORAN is one big question.
I know we shut down LORAN C to save $36M/year. A drop in the bucket.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 10:56 PM, skipp Isaham via time-nuts 
time-nuts@febo.com wrote:

  Does anyone know of any other genuinely useful purpose to which the
  Austron 2100F, SRS FS700, etc receivers can be put in the US since the
  demise of Loran?

 I've heard Loran C in some form will be returning.  GPS is not jam proof
 and that
 seems to have caught the attention of our government. Although some
 locations
 have already been dismantled to some large degree, a hold that tiger has
 been
 issued as the wheels have started to turn backwards and Loran C starts to
 make
 a comeback.
 cheers,
 skipp
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Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

In message 55a4ac81.1030...@rubidium.dyndns.org, Magnus Danielson writes:

The safety is 
relative, in that it takes quite a bit of more infrastructure compared 
to the jamming of GPS, and that lies in the wavelength of the signal 
than anything else.

If the goal is a reliable backup for GPS, there are smarter ways to
use the 100kHz band than Loran-C pulses, and there really isn't much
reason to stay compatible with Loran-C receivers.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
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Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...

[Magnus Danielson]

Poul-Henning,

On 07/14/2015 06:16 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:


In message 55a4ac81.1030...@rubidium.dyndns.org, Magnus Danielson writes:


The safety is
relative, in that it takes quite a bit of more infrastructure compared
to the jamming of GPS, and that lies in the wavelength of the signal
than anything else.


If the goal is a reliable backup for GPS, there are smarter ways to
use the 100kHz band than Loran-C pulses, and there really isn't much
reason to stay compatible with Loran-C receivers.



True. I would look at PRN-codes if I where to do such a system today.
What may be an issue is the amount of sidebands allowed, as it would put 
limits on the chipping-rate of PRN-codes or for that matter other forms 
of modulations.


I think another approach was being considered for the LORAN-rebuild in 
the US. I don't remember from the top of my head when it was discussed 
or link to the article.


Cheers,
Magnus
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Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

In message 55a53a67.7010...@rubidium.dyndns.org, Magnus Danielson writes:

 If the goal is a reliable backup for GPS, there are smarter ways to
 use the 100kHz band than Loran-C pulses, and there really isn't much
 reason to stay compatible with Loran-C receivers.

True. I would look at PRN-codes if I where to do such a system today.
What may be an issue is the amount of sidebands allowed, as it would put 
limits on the chipping-rate of PRN-codes or for that matter other forms 
of modulations.

I would probably stay with the pulses, they have some very desirable
properties in terms of transmitter and antenna design and bandwidth.

But I would get rid of the current spread-spectrum design and do
something like this:

We pick a basic period as a prime number of microseconds, for
instance 262139µs (just below 2^18) and we define an epoch for this.
This means that all transmitters are autonomous based on a local
TAI reference.

Each transmitter emits an individual PRN-spaced pattern of 32 pulses
in the basic period.  The exact pulse patterns for a transmitter
will be picked based on vectors to neighboring transmitters.

The pulse polarity is plus, minus, data where every 3rd pulse is
used to implement a serial data-channel which communicates
chain-configuration data, TAI/UTC info with some bits left
over for civil defence warnings.

Using one global GRI means that there no longer any chains.
This eliminates a host of failure-modes on the transmitter side and
the receivers will automatically be all-in-view.

With all transmitters autonomous and independent, RAIM is possible.

The basic period is relatively long to attenuate any CW interference
for time/frequency purposes but the higher pulse-per-period count
compensates this for location purposes.

Making the pulse-pattern per transmitter and PRN-like eliminates
all the shadow effects (baseline extension etc) and makes for
quick (re)acquisition based on pattern-matching.

The PRN pattern will also dramatically attenuate the loran-lines
which polluted nearby VLF and LF bands.

The +/-/data pulse polarity makes it possible to detect the start
of the period by tracking where in the potential basic period pulses
do not change polarity:  3 doesn't divide 32, so there is a + - + -
sequence from all transmitters around the start of the period.

But then again, I have spent far more of my life on Loran-C than
can ever be justified :-)

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
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Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...

[paul swed]

Poul-Henning,
The reason to stay with the LORAN C style pulses is very very simple. It
allows our time-nuts Austrons and SRS to work. Its the only way I get any
of my tax dollars back. :-)
The good news is no official government person reads time-nuts.
Regards
Paul


On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 12:16 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp p...@phk.freebsd.dk
wrote:

 
 In message 55a4ac81.1030...@rubidium.dyndns.org, Magnus Danielson
 writes:

 The safety is
 relative, in that it takes quite a bit of more infrastructure compared
 to the jamming of GPS, and that lies in the wavelength of the signal
 than anything else.

 If the goal is a reliable backup for GPS, there are smarter ways to
 use the 100kHz band than Loran-C pulses, and there really isn't much
 reason to stay compatible with Loran-C receivers.

 --
 Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
 FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
 Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
 ___
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Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...

[Bob Camp]

Hi

Not to be to much of a downer here but …..

Loran for timing and an “Eastern WWVB” are two projects that seem to each have 
a 
life of their own. They seem to come up on some sort of cycle related to sun 
spots. 
Both have zero (or possibly less than that) percent mind share among those who 
would need to implement them into systems. Since there is major cost on the 
systems
end, it would take “mandatory use” legislation to get them designed in. Without 
those
design in’s, *having* a backup system is pretty useless. You are talking about 
billions of 
dollars and years of effort to hook them up ….

If you are talking about “infinite budget” military systems, some of that may 
happen. I 
notice in the papers that “infinite budget” does not seem to apply to the US 
DOD these 
days. For commercial systems, nobody will significantly cut into profits to do 
something like this. 

Should they do this - sure. Will they do it - nope. 

Bob

 On Jul 14, 2015, at 4:49 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 Poul-Henning,
 The reason to stay with the LORAN C style pulses is very very simple. It
 allows our time-nuts Austrons and SRS to work. Its the only way I get any
 of my tax dollars back. :-)
 The good news is no official government person reads time-nuts.
 Regards
 Paul
 
 
 On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 12:16 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp p...@phk.freebsd.dk
 wrote:
 
 
 In message 55a4ac81.1030...@rubidium.dyndns.org, Magnus Danielson
 writes:
 
 The safety is
 relative, in that it takes quite a bit of more infrastructure compared
 to the jamming of GPS, and that lies in the wavelength of the signal
 than anything else.
 
 If the goal is a reliable backup for GPS, there are smarter ways to
 use the 100kHz band than Loran-C pulses, and there really isn't much
 reason to stay compatible with Loran-C receivers.
 
 --
 Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
 FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
 Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
 ___
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 To unsubscribe, go to
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Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

In message cad2jfah+spv23kgizgmnjdh9ea1wksogn03y0icje2edpzt...@mail.gmail.com
, paul swed writes:

The reason to stay with the LORAN C style pulses is very very simple. It
allows our time-nuts Austrons and SRS to work. Its the only way I get any
of my tax dollars back. :-)

Considering how much better performance you can get with a trivial
ARM CPU on a sub $100 development board, I as a time-nut find that
an incredibly silly argument...


-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
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Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...

[Bob Camp]

Hi

 On Jul 14, 2015, at 12:35 PM, Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org 
 wrote:
 
 Poul-Henning,
 
 On 07/14/2015 06:16 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
 
 In message 55a4ac81.1030...@rubidium.dyndns.org, Magnus Danielson writes:
 
 The safety is
 relative, in that it takes quite a bit of more infrastructure compared
 to the jamming of GPS, and that lies in the wavelength of the signal
 than anything else.
 
 If the goal is a reliable backup for GPS, there are smarter ways to
 use the 100kHz band than Loran-C pulses, and there really isn't much
 reason to stay compatible with Loran-C receivers.
 
 
 True. I would look at PRN-codes if I where to do such a system today.
 What may be an issue is the amount of sidebands allowed, as it would put 
 limits on the chipping-rate of PRN-codes or for that matter other forms of 
 modulations.

If you look at the spectral width of the existing Loran-C (or similar) 
waveform, it’s a massive thing. You would have a hard time coming up with 
something that spreads
more crud around the VLF range.

Bob

 
 I think another approach was being considered for the LORAN-rebuild in the 
 US. I don't remember from the top of my head when it was discussed or link to 
 the article.
 
 Cheers,
 Magnus
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Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...

[David McGaw]

The word is that eLoran IS on in the US from Wildwood as of June 19.  
Has anyone noticed the signal?


http://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/news/loran-navigation-signal-back-on-and-better-than-before/article_21d19298-16d0-11e5-9a69-1343edc2e90b.html

There is also a bill in the US House to reinstate Loran-C as eLoran.

David N1HAC


On 7/14/15 6:49 PM, Bob Camp wrote:

Hi

Not to be to much of a downer here but …..

Loran for timing and an “Eastern WWVB” are two projects that seem to each have a
life of their own. They seem to come up on some sort of cycle related to sun 
spots.
Both have zero (or possibly less than that) percent mind share among those who
would need to implement them into systems. Since there is major cost on the 
systems
end, it would take “mandatory use” legislation to get them designed in. Without 
those
design in’s, *having* a backup system is pretty useless. You are talking about 
billions of
dollars and years of effort to hook them up ….

If you are talking about “infinite budget” military systems, some of that may 
happen. I
notice in the papers that “infinite budget” does not seem to apply to the US 
DOD these
days. For commercial systems, nobody will significantly cut into profits to do 
something like this.

Should they do this - sure. Will they do it - nope.

Bob


On Jul 14, 2015, at 4:49 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote:

Poul-Henning,
The reason to stay with the LORAN C style pulses is very very simple. It
allows our time-nuts Austrons and SRS to work. Its the only way I get any
of my tax dollars back. :-)
The good news is no official government person reads time-nuts.
Regards
Paul


On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 12:16 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp p...@phk.freebsd.dk
wrote:



In message 55a4ac81.1030...@rubidium.dyndns.org, Magnus Danielson
writes:


The safety is
relative, in that it takes quite a bit of more infrastructure compared
to the jamming of GPS, and that lies in the wavelength of the signal
than anything else.

If the goal is a reliable backup for GPS, there are smarter ways to
use the 100kHz band than Loran-C pulses, and there really isn't much
reason to stay compatible with Loran-C receivers.

--
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
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Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...

[Tim Shoppa]

How much money was saved by not sending NIST time codes over GOES
satellites? I'm sure that was much less than $36M/year to continue,
probably not even 1% of that.

I'm strongly for high diversity in time distribution. GPS is great, but
putting all our eggs in the GPS basket seems very unwise. At the moment I
have GPS, CHU, WWV, and WWVB, but more diversity would be better, and I
hope I can add some variant of LORAN back to the list soon.

Tim N3QE

On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 9:07 AM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote:

 Skip
 It certainly keeps trying to return. It will not be the navigation system
 formerly known as Loran C (Wasn't that also some singer?) it will be
 eLoran. Most eLORAN systems add an additional pulse for data. They stick
 somewhat to the old format to avoid possible interference with operating
 systems in Europe.
 But it seems in general LORAN is one big question.
 I know we shut down LORAN C to save $36M/year. A drop in the bucket.
 Regards
 Paul
 WB8TSL

 On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 10:56 PM, skipp Isaham via time-nuts 
 time-nuts@febo.com wrote:

   Does anyone know of any other genuinely useful purpose to which the
   Austron 2100F, SRS FS700, etc receivers can be put in the US since the
   demise of Loran?
 
  I've heard Loran C in some form will be returning.  GPS is not jam proof
  and that
  seems to have caught the attention of our government. Although some
  locations
  have already been dismantled to some large degree, a hold that tiger
 has
  been
  issued as the wheels have started to turn backwards and Loran C starts to
  make
  a comeback.
  cheers,
  skipp
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[time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...

[skipp Isaham via time-nuts]

 Does anyone know of any other genuinely useful purpose to which the
 Austron 2100F, SRS FS700, etc receivers can be put in the US since the
 demise of Loran? 

I've heard Loran C in some form will be returning.  GPS is not jam proof and 
that 
seems to have caught the attention of our government. Although some locations 
have already been dismantled to some large degree, a hold that tiger has been 
issued as the wheels have started to turn backwards and Loran C starts to make 
a comeback. 
cheers, 
skipp 
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Re: [time-nuts] LORAN-C reception in the UK

[Magnus Danielson]

It is given somewhat indirectly.
Initially plans was for 200 km.
The final system map had 100 km and 400 km marks.

Read the linked PDF.

Cheers,
Magnus

On 07/12/2015 12:48 AM, Björn wrote:

Did you check the jamming radius?

div Originalmeddelande /divdivFrån: Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org 
/divdivDatum:2015-07-11  18:00  (GMT+01:00) /divdivTill: time-nuts@febo.com /divdivKopia: mag...@rubidium.se 
/divdivRubrik: Re: [time-nuts] LORAN-C reception in the UK /divdiv
/divHi,

On 07/11/2015 03:18 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:


In message CAPbEEQJxn+R5AvCenfyXjFU=WOjFbYxZd2EC_hX=c6muyev...@mail.gmail.com
, ken hartman writes:


the European Radio Navigation Plan having twice been drafted
but never published. The view seems to bee that the introduction of Galileo
will achieve resilient PNT, which it will not.”


The reason the ERNP wasn't published, was that it concluded that 40% of
*all* benefits came from Loran-C, at a yearly cost only a fraction of
a single Galileo launch vehicle.


Someone should have dreamed up the aggregate robustness of eLoran,
GALILEO and EGNOS.

LORAN-C and eLORAN would be an interesting combination to GPS and GALILEO.

Sweden essentially had it's own set of LORAN/Chayka transmitters, with a
ever evolving jamming/spoofing ability. RT-02 Fredriksson was the system
name, often just referred to as Fredriksson.
http://www.antus.org/RT02.html
http://www.fht.nu/fv_bilder_radio_rasandare_rt_02.html
http://www.fht.nu/Dokument/Flygvapnet/flyg_publ_rapport_rt_02.pdf

So much for jamming-resistant.

Cheers,
Magnus
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Re: [time-nuts] Loran and SRS FS700 in the UK

[GandalfG8--- via time-nuts]

Hi Poul-Henning
 
I agree that option 01 is stated to just mean a better oscillator,  and I 
was a bit confused by what I found, but my second and third  units, neither 
marked as option 01, have exactly the same oscillator  fitted, according to 
the SRS label on the oscillator, as my first unit which is  marked as 
having option 01.
 
The only obvious difference is that both the second and third units have  
higher serial numbers than the first, which is why I suggested that perhaps  
fitting the option 01 oscillator became standard with later production.
 
Another possibility of course is that the first unit was incorrectly  
marked and none of them have the option 01 oscillator:-)
 
Regards
 
Nigel
GM8PZR
 
 
 
 
In a message dated 11/07/2015 06:45:30 GMT Daylight Time,  
p...@phk.freebsd.dk writes:


In message 10c4f9.7d4eacfb.42d19...@aol.com,  GandalfG8--- via time-nuts 
write
s:

All three of my units seem  to have the Option 01 oscillator fitted,  
although only one  states this on the option label, 

I belive option 01 doesn't mean has  an OCXO but rather has a better 
OCXO

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org   | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to  malice what can adequately be explained by  
incompetence.
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Re: [time-nuts] Loran and SRS FS700 in the UK

[GandalfG8--- via time-nuts]

Hi Iain
 
I was also expecting a separate chain and GRI, but yes, 63710 seems to  be 
all there is.
 
Had me scratching my head for a while but for timing purposes at least it's 
 just business as usual:-)
 
Those extra stations provide the localised corrections that are then  
transmitted via the exiasting transmitters.
 
Regards
 
Nigel
GM8PZR
 
 
In a message dated 11/07/2015 07:27:09 GMT Daylight Time, i...@g7iii.net  
writes:

On  10/07/15 22:39, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts wrote:
 This is a reply to  the topic Loran-C reception in the UK with specific
 emphasis on the  Stanford Research FS700.
 Apologies for starting a fresh topic but I'm  still not able to take 
emails
 from the list due to incompatibility  problems with AOL and I don't see 
how
 to  reply to an existing  subject directly from the archive, if anyone 
knows
 how  to do  this please let me know.

 There is an excellent reference to  eLoran in the UK, including 
downloadable
   publications,  starting here..
  http://www.gla-rrnav.org/radionavigation/eloran/index.html

 As  far as I can tell, the Lessay chain, which includes the UK station at
  Anthorn, is currently transmitting eLoran, with the extra data   channel,
 rather than Loran-C but this is totally backwards compatible  and  the 
FS700 runs
 fine here, as does the Austron 2100  series.
 This is why it's difficult to find specific GRIs quoted for  eLoran as
 opposed to Loran-C, it's effectively the same network, using  the same
 transmitters and GRIs.

Right, so GRI 63710. I had  heard a while back that there were some
extra transmitters on the south  coast specifically for eLORAN, but
finding the ED's or if they are on the  same GRI has proved fruitless
so  far.


Iain

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Re: [time-nuts] Loran and SRS FS700 in the UK

[Iain Young]

On 10/07/15 22:39, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts wrote:

This is a reply to the topic Loran-C reception in the UK with specific
emphasis on the Stanford Research FS700.
Apologies for starting a fresh topic but I'm still not able to take emails
from the list due to incompatibility problems with AOL and I don't see how
to  reply to an existing subject directly from the archive, if anyone knows
how  to do this please let me know.

There is an excellent reference to eLoran in the UK, including downloadable
  publications, starting here..
http://www.gla-rrnav.org/radionavigation/eloran/index.html

As far as I can tell, the Lessay chain, which includes the UK station at
Anthorn, is currently transmitting eLoran, with the extra data  channel,
rather than Loran-C but this is totally backwards compatible and  the FS700 runs
fine here, as does the Austron 2100 series.
This is why it's difficult to find specific GRIs quoted for eLoran as
opposed to Loran-C, it's effectively the same network, using the same
transmitters and GRIs.


Right, so GRI 63710. I had heard a while back that there were some
extra transmitters on the south coast specifically for eLORAN, but
finding the ED's or if they are on the same GRI has proved fruitless
so far.


Iain
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Re: [time-nuts] LORAN-C reception in the UK

[Björn]

I think Denmark will also cease operation of their one station in line with 
Norway and France. 

What is the plan for Germany and the UK - not enough stations for a full chain? 
New  controlling station - since Lessay leaves?

--
     Björn

div Originalmeddelande /divdivFrån: ken hartman 
k...@hartmans.org /divdivDatum:2015-07-10  22:46  (GMT+01:00) 
/divdivTill: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
time-nuts@febo.com /divdivRubrik: Re: [time-nuts] LORAN-C reception in 
the UK /divdiv
/divfrom:

http://gpsworld.com/eloran-progresses-toward-gps-back-up-role-in-u-s-europe/


“Both Norway and France have declared an intention to cease Loran
transmissions at the end of 2015. Moreover, France intends to dismantle its
Loran infrastructure in 2016. Arrangements for the commercial operation of
the infrastructure are being investigated, but this depends on some form of
regional agreement. The European Union appears to have no policy for
resilient PNT, the European Radio Navigation Plan having twice been drafted
but never published. The view seems to bee that the introduction of Galileo
will achieve resilient PNT, which it will not.”

On Fri, Jul 10, 2015 at 7:14 AM, Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd) 
drkir...@kirkbymicrowave.co.uk wrote:

 How good/bad would a LORAN-C frequency reference such as the Stanford
 Research FS700 work in the UK?  I live about 60 km to the east of central
 London.

 Is there any future for LORAN-C in the UK?

 I am looking for a frequency reference that is not GPS - I already have a
 GPS frequency reference but would like to compare it with something
 independent of GPS.  Just having two GPS receivers provides two signals
 which are probably highly correlated.

 Dave.
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Re: [time-nuts] LORAN-C reception in the UK

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

In message CAPbEEQJxn+R5AvCenfyXjFU=WOjFbYxZd2EC_hX=c6muyev...@mail.gmail.com
, ken hartman writes:

the European Radio Navigation Plan having twice been drafted
but never published. The view seems to bee that the introduction of Galileo
will achieve resilient PNT, which it will not.”

The reason the ERNP wasn't published, was that it concluded that 40% of
*all* benefits came from Loran-C, at a yearly cost only a fraction of
a single Galileo launch vehicle.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
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Re: [time-nuts] Loran and SRS FS700 in the UK

[Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd)]

On 11 Jul 2015 03:28, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com
wrote:

 This is a reply to the topic Loran-C reception in the UK with specific
 emphasis on the Stanford Research FS700.

 Points to note.

 All three of my units seem to have the Option 01 oscillator fitted,
 although only one states this on the option label, so perhaps this became
 standard with later production. I don't know and wouldn't take it for
granted  but
 thought it worth a mention. The fitted oscillator in each unit is an
 identically specified SRS SC10.

 Mine are off air right now as I swap about stuff in the timing rack,  and
 haven't really been run for much more than initial tests, albeit for quite
 long periods. My general impression so far is that the reported frequency
 offset  might be a bit optimistic, this is compared with Thunderbolt
GPSDOs,
 but I need  to do more work on this.

Useful to know, but of course it could be the errors are on the
Thunderbolts! The problem with having multiple GPS units is that they are
not exactly independent of each other.

 The latest FS700 firmware I have seen is version 1.20.
 I can make the 1.20 firmware available if anyone would like a  copy.

I might take you up on that if I get an FS700.

 FS700s have become available on Ebay at very good prices since the USA
 Loran-C chain was closed down, that's why I have three:-), but it needs
to be
 noted that these are mainly from recycling outfits, what we might once
 have  referred to as scrap yards in the UK, and usually untested and with
no
 warranty.

 On average mine have cost me about 200GBP each, including shipping and
tax,
  but beware of some sellers still asking anything up to 1000USD before
 shipping  and import tax.

I have never seen them at anything like the price you see. About the
cheapest I have seen is $600. I did notice one or two on eBay that are
rusty, which struck me as odd.

 That small mains transformer runs really hot, not too surprising perhaps,
 and I've seen at least one online photo showing two larger transformers
 mounted  in the space towards the front of the unit. One or two probably
depends
 on  what's to hand but I would suggest a very worthwhile change. Mains
 voltage here  is generally over 245 volts, so a bit on the high side, but
I do
 believe that  transformer is underrated.

Are there multiple secondries? If not getting a replacement should not be
hard but otherwise it could be tricky.

I know someone who run his whole house on an autotransformer because his
mains voltage was too high.

 Small point, but a nuisance, there's no backlighting on the LCD  display.

 Overall impression, an excellent unit with programmable output frequency
 and built in phasemeter, and I can't wait to get mine back on the air:-)

If I could get one for £200 imported into the UK I would definitely get
one. I thought I would need to pay considerably more than that.

I have seen some in Hong Kong and China. I don't know if the system ever
worked there,  but if not then
 Regards

 Nigel
 GM8PZR

Cheers Nigel.

Dave G8WRB.
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Re: [time-nuts] Loran and SRS FS700 in the UK

[Bob Camp]

Hi





 On Jul 11, 2015, at 1:02 AM, Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd) 
 drkir...@kirkbymicrowave.co.uk wrote:
 
 On 11 Jul 2015 03:28, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com
 wrote:
 
 This is a reply to the topic Loran-C reception in the UK with specific
 emphasis on the Stanford Research FS700.
 
 Points to note.
 
 All three of my units seem to have the Option 01 oscillator fitted,
 although only one states this on the option label, so perhaps this became
 standard with later production. I don't know and wouldn't take it for
 granted  but
 thought it worth a mention. The fitted oscillator in each unit is an
 identically specified SRS SC10.
 
 Mine are off air right now as I swap about stuff in the timing rack,  and
 haven't really been run for much more than initial tests, albeit for quite
 long periods. My general impression so far is that the reported frequency
 offset  might be a bit optimistic, this is compared with Thunderbolt
 GPSDOs,
 but I need  to do more work on this.
 
 Useful to know, but of course it could be the errors are on the
 Thunderbolts! The problem with having multiple GPS units is that they are
 not exactly independent of each other.
 
 The latest FS700 firmware I have seen is version 1.20.
 I can make the 1.20 firmware available if anyone would like a  copy.
 
 I might take you up on that if I get an FS700.
 
 FS700s have become available on Ebay at very good prices since the USA
 Loran-C chain was closed down, that's why I have three:-), but it needs
 to be
 noted that these are mainly from recycling outfits, what we might once
 have  referred to as scrap yards in the UK, and usually untested and with
 no
 warranty.
 
 On average mine have cost me about 200GBP each, including shipping and
 tax,
 but beware of some sellers still asking anything up to 1000USD before
 shipping  and import tax.
 
 I have never seen them at anything like the price you see. About the
 cheapest I have seen is $600. I did notice one or two on eBay that are
 rusty, which struck me as odd.
 
 That small mains transformer runs really hot, not too surprising perhaps,
 and I've seen at least one online photo showing two larger transformers
 mounted  in the space towards the front of the unit. One or two probably
 depends
 on  what's to hand but I would suggest a very worthwhile change. Mains
 voltage here  is generally over 245 volts, so a bit on the high side, but
 I do
 believe that  transformer is underrated.
 
 Are there multiple secondries? If not getting a replacement should not be
 hard but otherwise it could be tricky.
 
 I know someone who run his whole house on an autotransformer because his
 mains voltage was too high.
 
 Small point, but a nuisance, there's no backlighting on the LCD  display.
 
 Overall impression, an excellent unit with programmable output frequency
 and built in phasemeter, and I can't wait to get mine back on the air:-)
 
 If I could get one for £200 imported into the UK I would definitely get
 one. I thought I would need to pay considerably more than that.
 
 I have seen some in Hong Kong and China. I don't know if the system ever
 worked there,  but if not then



Loran is very much a “real thing” in China. There have a variety of Loran 
chains 
in that part of the world over the many decades that Loran C/e has been a going 
concern.

Bob 



 Regards
 
 Nigel
 GM8PZR
 
 Cheers Nigel.
 
 Dave G8WRB.
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Re: [time-nuts] LORAN-C reception in the UK

[Iain Young]

On 10/07/15 21:46, ken hartman wrote:

from:

http://gpsworld.com/eloran-progresses-toward-gps-back-up-role-in-u-s-europe/


“Both Norway and France have declared an intention to cease Loran
transmissions at the end of 2015. Moreover, France intends to dismantle its
Loran infrastructure in 2016. Arrangements for the commercial operation of
the infrastructure are being investigated, but this depends on some form of
regional agreement. The European Union appears to have no policy for
resilient PNT, the European Radio Navigation Plan having twice been drafted
but never published. The view seems to bee that the introduction of Galileo
will achieve resilient PNT, which it will not.”


Hmm.I knew about Norway (to be honest, the Noreweigan stations being so 
far away that I can't hear them anyway), but France ceasing

transmissions is new.

That might be interesting with Anthorn currently a slave to Lessay. I
suspec the Arrangements for the commercial operation of the
infrastructure are being investigated means France wants to privatise 
the operations.


Anthorn is already privately operated. Hopefully a deal can be done


Iain


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Re: [time-nuts] Loran and SRS FS700 in the UK

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

In message 10c4f9.7d4eacfb.42d19...@aol.com, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts write
s:

All three of my units seem to have the Option 01 oscillator fitted,  
although only one states this on the option label, 

I belive option 01 doesn't mean has an OCXO but rather has a better OCXO

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
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