from:"michael douglas"

Re: [TruthTalk]

2005-10-27 Thread michael douglas

Judy

My condolences to you and your family on your Mom's going home. May the Lord give you all the comfort and encouragement you need at this time.
God bless you...
Michael.Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hi TT'ers,Does anyone know if DavidM made it through Wilma OK? I saw some TV pplinHollywood and it looked a bit messy to me.If you don't hear from me for a while it's because we are having to takeanother tripto OZ. My mother passed away yesterday there (today here) just twomonths shortof her 100th birthday. I talked with her on Sat night - she had a throatvirus but wasalert enough to lecture me about the war in Iraq and how thick JohnHoward andGeorge W. are still. She could even tell me George W's popularity ratingaccuratelyand for the first time she spoke to me about death in a personal way,always beforeit had been to do with her stuff but this time she said she had beenthinking about itand that she wasn't afraid to die. Apparently she went peacefully in hersleep at aPalliative Care place they
had taken her to because of the other problem;she wasonly there overnight. The Lord is good. Our family will probably leaveon Mondayfor the funeral which is November 3rd.Behave yourselves while I'm gone, no more fussing nowTTYLJudyt--"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
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Re: [TruthTalk] Authority over nature: Guyana

2005-02-18 Thread michael douglas

- Original Message - 

From: michael douglas 
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 12:58 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Authority over nature: Guyana

Michael D: Hey Bill, thanx for the question. This is something we discussed at length last summer into early fall. Browsing the archives might give you a broad picture.I recommend it to you.
Incidentally, I did not pray away the whole Carnival,I just got it out of my area. Why would you assume that I prayed evil into some one else's domain by praying away carnival? 

If it was because of its evil that you prayed it away from your area, why do you not feel a bit shameful for having prayed it into another area? 
Michael D: You are making quite an erroneous assumption there, Bill. The carnival in my area was a community affair which died. It had nothing to do with any other area.

Did it not leave your town and pitch its tents somewhere else? Why not pray it into bankrupcy, that it could not enter another town? Better yet, why not pray the demons out of those people, that you might then save them? 
As a rule, people have to want deliverance before one can administer it to them.
Why, why, why? With powers like this at your/our disposal, why is it so satisfying just to pray it out of town?

And are you suggesting that I should have let it be?

No, I think it is fine to pray about such things. I am suggesting, though,that I see no evidence that it is you who got rid of it. 
Are you saying that although it IS fine to pray about such things, we should not expect God to answer our particular prayer(s)? Or is that He would not answer mine, in particular?

I also detect a suggestion that if I was able to avert a disaster in my area and not in someone else's, that my claim of such averting would be invalid. Am I right there?

No, just curious asto why you did not seize the opportunity to demonstrate these phenomenal powers to your skeptics, the pastors who were"unable to relate to it from [your] point of view." IF you want my "joint" in the body of Christ to get this, I would like to see you demonstrate these powers: why not stand upon your faith and in our presence predict these things with undeniable clarity ahead of time, and not just take credit for them oncethey have happened? -- this seems fair enough to me.
I disagree with this very strongly. Jesus did not go around trying to prove to people that He was the Son of God when they demanded sign. Neither will I. Jesus responded to needs and faith, and when those folks asked for a sign, He said no such sign would be given. To Him,His Word, and the procession of situational manifestations of his power He effected were sufficient for anyone who had an open heart to God to know the truth of whi He was and of His message. I do encourage you to read through old posts on 'Believers' authority over nature', and 'The Eye of The Storm 'and judge for yourself.

Bill

. Bill Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Michael, I have a question for you: If you and you alone prayed away the Carnival, why didn't you and you alone pray away the Gasparilla parade? Is there a territorial principal at play here, something like, you can doit on your own turf but not onanother's? Pleaseshare relevant passages. I'm thinking we don't really do much, if all we can do is pray evil into someone else's domain. With power like this, why not eradicate it? Again, relevant passages please.

Bill

- Original Message - 
From: michael douglas 
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 3:09 PM
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Authority over nature: Guyana

Michael D: Very interesting indeed, Izzy. As you said,if true, what a testimony of divine providence... Thank God for His mercy.

Interesting to read your statement about our not having rights, here. While that may be true, sometimes we hae to resist the bully (enemy) from throwing us off course, or trying to overthrow the will of god in our lives and even in our communities. I'll give an example: Many years ago, after returning home to TnT from Tampa, I found myself confronted with a situation which I found very undesirable. In our community, one of my close neighbours had begun hosting a Carnival parade on our street while I was in the U.S. Now Carnival here is somewhat like Mardi Gras, and seen as very undesirable by most Christians. Well, I decided I needed to stop it. I therefore used the believers authority of what I allow is allowed and what I forbid is forbidden, and the practice was discontinued. Of course, up to today, no one but I (and now TTers) would know why the activities ceased. One thing you know I hold strongly is that we believers have the right to determine what
 kinds of things prevail in our 'garden'. I want to be able to press further and further into that realm and to encourage others to do the same. This is by no means to diminish what God did for those Christians, or any one else. I remember

Re: [TruthTalk] Authority over nature: Guyana

2005-02-18 Thread michael douglas

MD: I thought that this link would be interesting. It's a link to the message preached by the apostle to the Grenadians before Ivan last year. It's not edited,so the reading is not a smooth narrative,but it is manageable.
http://www.geraldgriffith.org/images/Prophetic%20Word%20to%20Grenada.pdf
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Re: [TruthTalk] Authority over nature: Guyana

2005-02-17 Thread michael douglas

Michael D: Hey Bill, thanx for the question. This is something we discussed at length last summer into early fall. Browsing the archives might give you a broad picture.I recommend it to you.
Incidentally, I did not pray away the whole Carnival,I just got it out of my area. Why would you assume that I prayed evil into some one else's domain by praying away carnival? And are you suggesting that I should have let it be?
I also detect a suggestion that if I was able to avert a disaster in my area and not in someone else's, that my claim of such averting would be invalid. Am I right there?


. Bill Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Michael, I have a question for you: If you and you alone prayed away the Carnival, why didn't you and you alone pray away the Gasparilla parade? Is there a territorial principal at play here, something like, you can doit on your own turf but not onanother's? Pleaseshare relevant passages. I'm thinking we don't really do much, if all we can do is pray evil into someone else's domain. With power like this, why not eradicate it? Again, relevant passages please.

Bill

- Original Message - 
From: michael douglas 
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 3:09 PM
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Authority over nature: Guyana

Michael D: Very interesting indeed, Izzy. As you said,if true, what a testimony of divine providence... Thank God for His mercy.

Interesting to read your statement about our not having rights, here. While that may be true, sometimes we hae to resist the bully (enemy) from throwing us off course, or trying to overthrow the will of god in our lives and even in our communities. I'll give an example: Many years ago, after returning home to TnT from Tampa, I found myself confronted with a situation which I found very undesirable. In our community, one of my close neighbours had begun hosting a Carnival parade on our street while I was in the U.S. Now Carnival here is somewhat like Mardi Gras, and seen as very undesirable by most Christians. Well, I decided I needed to stop it. I therefore used the believers authority of what I allow is allowed and what I forbid is forbidden, and the practice was discontinued. Of course, up to today, no one but I (and now TTers) would know why the activities ceased. One thing you know I hold strongly is that we believers have the right to determine what
 kinds of things prevail in our 'garden'. I want to be able to press further and further into that realm and to encourage others to do the same. This is by no means to diminish what God did for those Christians, or any one else. I remember meeting with a group of pastors (invited to attend by David Miller). They were very concerned about the Gasparilla parade commerating the pirates etc that coloured the history or the area. I tried telling them that they have the authority in Christ to come against that celebration, but they seemed unable to relate to it from that point of view, yet they bemoaned the advent of the activities. We have a similar problem in TnT. Believers deplore the carnival celebrations, but don't seem able to come together in one accord and demand that the mountain be removed.
I pray that we all really get it in the Body of Christ.

P.S. I just found out today that the Prime Minister of Grenada was due -last week- to visit the apostle in the U.S. (Baltimore) whom God has been using to call the nation to repentance. I understand that there was alot of pre-visit security checks etc. This is very interesting indeed. God must have have gotten something through to the PM of Grenada through the Ivan disaster. I'll keep you folks up-to-date as I get more info.
ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:







Michael D, Im always so joyful to hear from you! Thank you for the updates. 
Today I received this email from a friend, and if it is true it shows that our Lord 
can still protect His own from the wind and waves today:

Subject: Tsunami testimony

God Protects His own!We know that 80% of the town of Meulaboh in Aceh was destroyed by theTsunami waves and 80% of the people also died. This is one of thetowns that was hit the hardest.But there is a fantastic testimony from Meulaboh. In that town areabout 400 Christians. They wanted to celebrate Christmas on December 25thbutwere not allowed to do so by the Muslims of Meulaboh. They were told ifthey wanted to celebrate Christmas they needed to go outside the city ofMeulaboh on a high hill and there celebrate Christmas.Because the Christians desired to celebrate Christmas the 400believers left the city on December 25th and after they celebratedChristmas
 theystayed overnight on the hill.As we all know the morning of December 26 there was the earthquakefollowed by the Tsunami waves destroying most of the city of Meulaboh andthousands were killed. The 400 believers were on the mountain and were allsavedfrom destruction.Now the Muslims of Meulaboh are saying that the God of the Christianspunished us

RE: [TruthTalk] Authority over nature: Guyana

2005-02-16 Thread michael douglas

Michael D: Very interesting indeed, Izzy. As you said,if true, what a testimony of divine providence... Thank God for His mercy.

Interesting to read your statement about our not having rights, here. While that may be true, sometimes we hae to resist the bully (enemy) from throwing us off course, or trying to overthrow the will of god in our lives and even in our communities. I'll give an example: Many years ago, after returning home to TnT from Tampa, I found myself confronted with a situation which I found very undesirable. In our community, one of my close neighbours had begun hosting a Carnival parade on our street while I was in the U.S. Now Carnival here is somewhat like Mardi Gras, and seen as very undesirable by most Christians. Well, I decided I needed to stop it. I therefore used the believers authority of what I allow is allowed and what I forbid is forbidden, and the practice was discontinued. Of course, up to today, no one but I (and now TTers) would know why the activities ceased. One thing you know I hold strongly is that we believers have the right to determine what
 kinds of things prevail in our 'garden'. I want to be able to press further and further into that realm and to encourage others to do the same. This is by no means to diminish what God did for those Christians, or any one else. I remember meeting with a group of pastors (invited to attend by David Miller). They were very concerned about the Gasparilla parade commerating the pirates etc that coloured the history or the area. I tried telling them that they have the authority in Christ to come against that celebration, but they seemed unable to relate to it from that point of view, yet they bemoaned the advent of the activities. We have a similar problem in TnT. Believers deplore the carnival celebrations, but don't seem able to come together in one accord and demand that the mountain be removed.
I pray that we all really get it in the Body of Christ.

P.S. I just found out today that the Prime Minister of Grenada was due -last week- to visit the apostle in the U.S. (Baltimore) whom God has been using to call the nation to repentance. I understand that there was alot of pre-visit security checks etc. This is very interesting indeed. God must have have gotten something through to the PM of Grenada through the Ivan disaster. I'll keep you folks up-to-date as I get more info.
ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:







Michael D, Im always so joyful to hear from you! Thank you for the updates. 
Today I received this email from a friend, and if it is true it shows that our Lord 
can still protect His own from the wind and waves today:

Subject: Tsunami testimony

God Protects His own!We know that 80% of the town of Meulaboh in Aceh was destroyed by theTsunami waves and 80% of the people also died. This is one of thetowns that was hit the hardest.But there is a fantastic testimony from Meulaboh. In that town areabout 400 Christians. They wanted to celebrate Christmas on December 25thbutwere not allowed to do so by the Muslims of Meulaboh. They were told ifthey wanted to celebrate Christmas they needed to go outside the city ofMeulaboh on a high hill and there celebrate Christmas.Because the Christians desired to celebrate Christmas the 400believers left the city on December 25th and after they celebratedChristmas
 theystayed overnight on the hill.As we all know the morning of December 26 there was the earthquakefollowed by the Tsunami waves destroying most of the city of Meulaboh andthousands were killed. The 400 believers were on the mountain and were allsavedfrom destruction.Now the Muslims of Meulaboh are saying that the God of the Christianspunished us for forbidding the Christians from celebrating Christmasin the city. Others are questioning why so many Muslims died while not evenone of the Christians died there.Had the Christians insisted on their rights to celebrate Christmas inthe city, they would have all died. But because they humbled themselvesand followed the advice of the Muslims they all were spared destructionand can now testify of God's marvelous protection.This is a testimony of the grace of God and the fact that as believerswe
 have no rights in the world. Our right is come before God and commitour lives to Him. Our right is kneeling down before the Lord almighty andcommit our ways to Him. He is our Father and is very capable to care forHischildren. Praise the Name of the Lord.

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[TruthTalk] Authority over nature: Follow-up

2005-02-15 Thread michael douglas

Michael D: TTers, as most of you will recall, we had a very lively debate re the ability of Christians to exercise control over nature. This led further to persons questioning whether God uses these types of disasters to judge nations, and even whether He gets so intimately involved in these areas of our lives atall. Well, I feel it is instructive to give an update on the Ivan situation, and subsequent events regarding some of what I shared at that time.
Not long after Ivan struck, I was talking with a close sister in the Lord about the tragedy of Grenada and the decimation caused by that hurricane. How taken aback was I to learn that a ministry based in the U.S. with which she was very closely associated had an open air meeting in their national stadium in April of last year called on the Prime Minister to have a national day of repentance, stressing that God was willing to forgive the nation for it's evils and that He has a plan for them. Needless to say the Prime Minister never called such a day. It did reaffirm to me though, what I had been saying on TT, that God prefers to get the warning out to people before judgement comes, and also that God does allow these things as judgement over the nations, if they will not repent and if no one stands in the gap for them. The idea is, when judgement comes, the people understand that God is dealing with them.
Quite providentially, I had the opportunity to speak with two teachers from Grenada who were in TnT (Trinidad and Tobago) to collect relief supplies collected for the people there. I asked them about the meeting in the stadium calling for a day of repentance. One confirmed it, and further added that people are always coming to Grenada and calling for repentance, but no one takes them on. She then said that up to two weeks before Ivan struck, a man was walking the streets and calling on people to repent: same reaction!!! How amazing.
The U.S. based preacher returned to Grenada after Ivan and had another public meeting. This time people were packed in their cars outside the meeting grounds to hear what the servant of God had to say to them. Again he stipulated to the Prime Minister the need to call for a day of repentance. When the Prime Minister came to speak, he announced that there will be a day of thanksgiving... The whole crowd shouted him down with "Repentance! Repentance!"
It seems that God got His message accross.
These things are real, and storms et al don't come to clean up nature, or by happenstance but, in addition to judgement, also to clean up men's hearts. Why then should we fight them off? Because God prefers to have the storm of the Gospel going forth in the highways and byways, rather than having to allow the enemy to unleash his broadside against a people. When adequately warned, any attendant catastrophe can more easily be attributed to their hardness of heart and can evoke a wave of contrition as happened in Greneda. And that gospel offensive is the responsibility of those are His.

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Partial Repost: Re: [TruthTalk] Five Million

2005-02-15 Thread michael douglas

michael douglas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Michael D:
Anyway to some serious stuff. Ivan was originally due to hit Barbados flush. THe Lord showed to my prayer partner and me during a time of prayer, three Caribbean nations that were in serious jeopardy. They are Jamaica, Guyana and Barbados. This was at the end of last week (Thursday,I believe). He showed my prayer partner that the pride of the Bajans (Barbadians) had stirred His anger (they are actually a very proud people). Both of my parents are from Barbados, and many of their relatives live their. One of my sisters does as well.
This revelation came to him just as the Lord had me taking a bit of a strange turn as we were winding down a long session of sharing around the things of God aand prayer. The Lord just put Jamaica on my heart, and I started to prophesy over it and to take up a lamentation over it. The Lord had me speaking that He was in sadness over Jamaica, that it was a land that He loved and longed to draw her unto Himself. Alot of sadness was being expressed in that prophesy, but interspersed with joy. It took me by surprise, but I stepped out in faith and strove to flow with the Spirit. He then had me do something similar with Guyana (the only English-speaking Caribbean country located in South America). This was more than a bit unusual the way it happened. When I was done, I thought my prayer partner would have a further confirming word on those countries. Then he shared with me on what the Lord was showing him about Barbados when I was speaking over Jamaica.
Strange thing, this happened before this threat of Ivan materialized in the way that it did. You can imagine how taken aback we were as the events of this week unfolded, and finding that Jamaica, after the initial onslaught of Ivan, was directly in the path of this fella. Never did we realize how dramatic and immanent God's word to us was. Through it all we have prayed for God's mercy and fought the storm for dear life.
It still baffles me how folks can be so apathetic about something so serious. The people of Grenada were that way because they hadn't experienced anything like that for almost fifty years. Now Ivan has left 90% of the buildings either destroyed or badly damaged, down to the Prime Minister's residences (official and private) and the Governor General's. All that was left standing of the latter's is the foundation.
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Re: [TruthTalk] Ben Stein's Final Column

2005-02-09 Thread michael douglas

MD: Stunning, Izzy, just stunning. ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:









About real heroes/values:






Subject: Ben Stein's final column




 For many years Ben Stein has written a biweekly column for the online website called "Monday Night At Morton's." (Morton's is a famous chain of Steakhouses known to be frequented by movie stars and famous people from around the globe.) Now, Ben is terminating the column to move on to other things in his life. Reading his final column is worth a few minutes of your time.



How Can Someone Who Lives in Insane Luxury Be a Star in Today's World?As I begin to write this, I "slug" it, as we writers say, which means I put a heading on top of the document to identify it. This heading is "eonlineFINAL," and it gives me a shiver to write it. I have been doing thiscolumn for so long that I cannot even recall when I started. I loved writingthis column so much for so long I came to believe it would never end.It worked well for a long time, but gradually, my changing as a person and the world's change have overtaken it. On a small scale, Morton's, while better than ever, no longer attracts as many stars as it used to. It still brings in the rich people in droves and definitely some stars. I saw Samuel L. Jackson there a few
 days ago, and we had a nice visit, and right before that, I saw and had a splendid talk with Warren Beatty in an elevator, in which we agreed that Splendor in the Grass was a super movie. But Morton's is not the star galaxy it once was, though it probably will be again.Beyond that, a bigger change has happened. I no longer think Hollywood starsare terribly important. They are uniformly pleasant, friendly people, and they treat me better than I deserve to be treated. But a man or woman who makes a huge wage for memorizing lines and reciting them in front of a camera is no longer my idea of a shining star we should all look up to.How can a man or woman who makes an eight-figure wage and lives in insane luxury really be a star in today's world, if by a "star" we mean someone bright and powerful and attractive as a role
 model? Real stars are not riding around in the backs of limousines or in Porsches or getting trained in yoga or Pilates and eating only raw fruit while they have Vietnamese girls do their nails.They can be interesting, nice people, but they are not heroes to me any longer. A real star is the soldier of the 4th Infantry Division who poked his head into a hole on a farm near Tikrit, Iraq. He could have been met by a bomb or a hail of AK-47 bullets. Instead, he faced an abject Saddam Hussein and the gratitude of all of the decent people of the world.A real star is the U.S. soldier who was sent to disarm a bomb next to a roadnorth of Baghdad. He approached it, and the bomb went off
 and killed him.A real star, the kind who haunts my memory night and day, is the U.S. soldier in Baghdad who saw a little girl playing with a piece of unexploded ordnance on a street near where he was guarding a station. He pushed her aside and threw himself on it just as it exploded. He left a family desolatein California and a little girl alive in Baghdad.The stars who deserve media attention are not the ones who have lavish weddings on TV but the ones who patrol the streets of Mosul even after two of their buddies were murdered and their bodies battered and stripped for the sin of trying to protect Iraqis from terrorists.We put
 couples with incomes of $100 million a year on the covers of our magazines. The noncoms and officers who barely scrape by on military pay butstand on guard in Afghanistan and Iraq and on ships and in submarines and near the Arctic Circle are anonymous as they live and die.I am no longer comfortable being a part of the system that has such poor values, and I do not want to perpetuate those values by pretending that who is eating at Morton's is a big subject.There are plenty of other stars in the American firmament...the policemen and women who go off on patrol in South Central and have no idea if they will return alive; the orderlies and paramedics who bring in people who havebeen in terrible accidents and prepare them for surgery; the teachers and nurses who throw their whole spirits into caring for
 autistic children; the kind men and women who work in hospices and in cancer wards.Think of each and every fireman who was running up the stairs at the World Trade Center as the towers began to collapse. Now you have my idea of a realhero.We are not responsible for the operation of the universe, and what happens to us is not terribly important. God is real, not a fiction; and when we turn over our lives to Him, He takes far better care of us than we could ever do for ourselves. In a word, we make ourselves sane when we fire ourselves as the directors of the movie of our lives and turn the power overto Him.I came to realize that life lived to help others is the only one that matters. This is my highest and best use as a human. I can put

Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me

2005-01-03 Thread michael douglas

Hail David
Greetings and many blessings in the name of the Lord Jesus For this new year, Both to you and your blessed family! Please give a special blessing to The Terry's for me as well.
How is it going? I hope that the new year started with bright hope and great expectations for you all. I also trust that the business thrust that is upon you will find increasing space in your heart and faith for His glory in this new year.
How did your faith sales project turn out in the end? I am curious to find out. I see great victories for you in this new year in that arena. The thought that strikes me now is '...Go get it...'. I'm sure that the Lord will help you overcome the mindset and get things in good balance.
Hey, How did Christine do with the "As the Deer..." verse I gave her at Paul and Nancy's place that night? I know she wanted to play it at her group. I wonder if she practised it?
I am looking foward to this new year for new things from the Lord, and to stop sitting down so much. It's time to get up and get busy. I am looking to tha Lord also regarding school etc. I've not heard anything from USF yet. I'm still waiting.
Well, I have to run now. Stay strong and look for good things around every corner, in every valley and wherever God's will takes you. You are a champion!
Say hello to all of the ladies for me.
God bless
Michael.
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[TruthTalk] Please Ignore Previous E-mail

2005-01-03 Thread michael douglas

TTers
I sent an email intended for David Miller to TT by error. Please ignore. I apologise for any embarrassment caused to David or any one else on TT.
As I am at it I wish God's perfect will for everyone on TT in this year ahead, and may we all come to know Him who is true, as He requires us to know Him.
Michael D.
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RE: [TruthTalk] Eye of the Storm

2004-09-29 Thread michael douglas

Michael D: Hello counsellor . Well, I think the context of my quote below should be reconsidered by you, sir...
You'll need to explain to me how I'm out of context here. James and John wanted to call down fire from heaven and destroy some Samaritans. Jesus rebuked them for their attitude and said He did not come to destroy, but save men's lives. If we send a hurricane to Russia, that would be risking destroying folks, like James and John wanted to do with fire from heaven. Your witness, counsellor...Jonathan Hughes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:




Hi Michael, Johns lawyer here J

Jonathan in Green.





ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:







From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Eye of the Storm
In a message dated 9/26/2004 7:33:07 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
This is interesting, Michael. Much of Florida is calling for a mandatory evacuation of low-lying areas, mobile homes, and manufactured homes. This has been an interesting six weeks with four storms.(PS Izzy did not post this. I think Slade did.)I don't understand why Michael doesn't simply pray these storms into Russia. If we have power over the weather, why not that? Serious as a heart attack, 
John, words are much too powerful for you to be throwing around such serious metaphors, man. I am still wondering why Russia...brother John

Michael D: And why Russia, John? I'm interested in knowing.
A good guideline here may be the words of Jesus '...the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them...'
Blatantly taking verses out of context is not helping your argument here. Nothing in this verse says that Jesus came to save men from the weather. The salvation that Christ offers is much, much different. 

Why on earth would you accuse Michael of wanting to do that??? Was that nice? Do you not realize that God can just dissolve a storm? IzzyYou lost me. I am accusing Michael of what? Does he not believe that Christians have authority over the weather? 

I happen to be a living testimony of this, John. And I am not the only one. Izzy, for example,has shared precious testimony here of experiences that she has had on this front. I have shared the things about storms etc. on TT because I felt I had a responsibility to, in the light of the impending Charley attack. Can you imagine me sitting by, knowing the supernatural protection of God from these things for practically 2 decades, and allowing the TT folks who were in danger to face that, not knowing that there was a greater way available from the Lord? Of course, once I have given two or three witnesses about this, then in God's mind it's enough to establish it. That would be in your mind its enough to establish it, not Gods. Claiming to speak for God where He is silent is not wise. 
I wouldn't want to suggest that you are hard of hearing, counsellor, but I have given more than adequate support from the scriptures to all. God surely isn't silent on this.

I've given alot more. Interestingly, Izzy on TT would be a second human witness for us all. I didn't even know she, or anyone else on TT had that experience before I started sharing. 
It amazes me how folks can sit in the midst of clear evidence and yet reject the reality presented. This is a problem in almost all disagreements. To one side the reality is clear evidence. To the other. The fact is the clear evidence you give is extremely biased and often takes scripture out of context.
Again you accuse me of being out of context. Please give me some clear indications rather than just a blanket statement.

This is what Jesus condemned the Scribes and Phariseesfor. They kept asking for a sign when He was demonstrating it to them every day. He said an evil and adulterous generation seeks a sign. Did He really have problems with signs? Of course not, butafter telling signs have been given, to still seek a sign, God rejects. 
The reality that you see is not near as clear to the rest of us. Nor are its results. Jesus did not condemn the Scribes and Pharisees for not believing that Christians should be dictating weather patterns. 
Well, counsellor, this is what I call out of context. As a counsellor, you should understand my argument, but you totally misapply it here. Jesus made many claims and the works He did were enough evidence that His words/message were true. He rebuked them for not believing the clear evidence. Jesus said that if He had not done the works that no other had done then they would have had no sin...I have recounted real life incidents in my life (as stated in paragraph below) If that is not evidence to you, then you must think I am a deluded storyteller or a baldfaced liar. No big thing to me. The events I have recounted are all true. It's either I have some magical powers that they have happened in my life, or God responded to my faith. Regarding controlling the weather, that's something I do very often,
 sometimes every day based on the season (wet/dry).

RE: [TruthTalk] Eye of the Storm

2004-09-27 Thread michael douglas

ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:















From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Eye of the Storm
In a message dated 9/26/2004 7:33:07 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
This is interesting, Michael. Much of Florida is calling for a mandatory evacuation of low-lying areas, mobile homes, and manufactured homes. This has been an interesting six weeks with four storms.(PS Izzy did not post this. I think Slade did.)I don't understand why Michael doesn't simply pray these storms into Russia. If we have power over the weather, why not that? Serious as a heart attack, brother John
Michael D: And why Russia, John? I'm interested in knowing.
A good guideline here may be the words of Jesus '...the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them...'
Why on earth would you accuse Michael of wanting to do that??? Was that nice? Do you not realize that God can just dissolve a storm? IzzyYou lost me. I am accusing Michael of what? Does he not believe that Christians have authority over the weather? 
I happen to be a living testimony of this, John. And I am not the only one. Izzy, for example,has shared precious testimony here of experiences that she has had on this front. I have shared the things about storms etc. on TT because I felt I had a responsibility to, in the light of the impending Charley attack. Can you imagine me sitting by, knowing the supernatural protection of God from these things for practically 2 decades, and allowing the TT folks who were in danger to face that, not knowing that there was a greater way available from the Lord? Of course, once I have given two or three witnesses about this, then in God's mind it's enough to establish it. I've given alot more. Interestingly, Izzy on
 TT would be a second human witness for us all. I didn't even know she, or anyone else on TT had that experience before I started sharing. 
It amazes me how folks can sit in the midst of clear evidence and yet reject the reality presented. This is what Jesus condemned the Scribes and Phariseesfor. They kept asking for a sign when He was demonstrating it to them every day. He said an evil and adulterous generation seeks a sign. Did He really have problems with signs? Of course not, butafter telling signs have been given, to still seek a sign, God rejects. 
Personally, I've poured out muchfrom my life, supported by copious scriptures to help folks see the truth of what I am exhorting. There is alot more I can share as well, but I would think that what I've shared should be much more than enough. As a matter of fact, TT is the first place I've ever shared of my experiences with storms. Folks have seen me deal with weather before, but not storms. Even David Miller, whom I've known for over 20 years, never knew about what I've shared here before I started. I kept that stuff to myself. My prayer partner, whom I've mentioned heree a few times, only found out about it a couple weeks ago after our prayer about Ivan. What am I saying? God has a purpose for letting me share
 this stuff. God wants those of us who name His name to grow up into the fulness of Christ, and don't remain babies in Christ. I know that soundsharsh, but that's the mind of God here. God is saying to us to grow up. Some may take offense at this, but it's God's truth. I am also included in that need to grow up. Many times God hits me that personally. God wants us to reign in this life through Jesus Christ, but if He can't get His people to believe His word, His hands are tied, and we suffer the loss.. He says, without faith it is impossible to please God. We must believe His word, not our notions, ideas or feelings about His word and His ways. How much plainer can we get than James 5 where he says Elijah was a man of like passions as we, yet he prayed and it did not rain forthree and a half years, and again he prayed and it rained upon the earth. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much 
But now that you mention it, what am I to believe? God can dissolve storms -- so why has He not done this with the four storms to strike Florida -- or is it #5 now? John
Are you aware of how much mercy God dispensed in all of this, John? Things could have been alot worse. FOr example, Ivan was downgraded before it hit the States. Imagine if was not downgraded. Even the media described some of the movements of Ivan as miraculous, as it spared many from direct hits.Folks in Florida need to get hold of this grace, especially based on where they live. God is providing answers, we are encouraged to respond.


What do you believe, John? Does God, or does He not, have that power (to dissolve storms)? Can/should Believers pray for God to do that? Does God do anything on earth without prayer from Believers? Izzy
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RE: [TruthTalk] Eye of the Storm

2004-09-25 Thread michael douglas

Michael D: What do you make of it, Slade? This is very serious business. I feel for you guys. I am fighting with you all. As I write here, it's already at your coast. I am praying for God's mercy while I try to add my fight. Thank God Izzy is in on the battle. May God bless her, and all that add their faith to this defence. I have not noticed anyone in Florida showing willingness to take a position for agreement yet. It may be difficult for some because of the evacuation order. May the people of Florida wake up also to the light and embrace the Lord Jesus an a broad scale. And may God protect His people, always.

Slade Henson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

This is interesting, Michael. Much of Florida is calling for a mandatory evacuation of low-lying areas, mobile homes, and manufactured homes. This has been an interesting six weeks with four storms.

-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of michael douglasSent: Friday, 24 September, 2004 18.40To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Eye of the Storm
Michael D: I'm relieved to see that. This area is to volatile to take lightly. Anyway, another storm threat is looming over the U.S. Florida again is in the firing line according to latest forcasts. How tough a prospect for you folks out there.
I remember sharing some weeks ago that the Lord showed me that the reason the authority over weather was being discussed on TT at this time was that folks would need to have that insight to deal with the things coming their way. That was after Charley. Never did I imagine that what has transpired so far is what He was trying to prepare folks for. I know that we've had alot of back and forth opinions about this area, but I want to reiterate the message. Folks have to take up the fight with authority and faith over their own backyard. I encourage you folks up north to resist the elements and speak death to the system, forbidding it from affecting you. If light comes and we don't walk in it we are left only with darkness, Jesus said. God has brought help. Folks should rise up and avail themselves of it. In all that has happened, God has been merciful in response to the fight of His people. I will continue to join the battle with you folks, but the coalition of
the willing must stand up and be counted for their land, not forgetting to inteercede for those who are lost in the process that they might come to light.
I know some folks have said that they don't believe in this stuff. Well, that's why I've shared volumes of my life experiences with you all that you may know that this is real. Is it that folks don't believe what I am saying and think I am making this stuff up? I have used many passages of scripture to support what I have been sharing. I feel like I've piped to a people all the day long... My hope is that folks will hear, and as Judy eloquently offered,press throughto the next level. It's not necessarily going to be perfect the first time or second ... but God expects us to grow from faith to faith and from glory to glory. One thing I don't want is to get stuck in the same level of faith and glory that former generations had. I want to press deep into the next level of exceeding abundantly above all that we can ask or think. God allows the challenges and threats ofcrises so that He can bring us there. Without it, most if not all of us would not
press into it.
So can we rally the troops one more time for a greatere measure of grace in God's inteervention with this threat. Again, a firm point of agreement will be important. Any takers? Will anyone seriously agree that that God turns the storm away from the U.S. coast and have it dissipate in the sea? If not, then an alternative.Slade Henson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

I do understand where you're coming from, Michael.

-- slade

-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of michael douglasSent: Thursday, 23 September, 2004 21.25To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [TruthTalk] Eye of the Storm
Slade Henson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

It's unbelievable how this concept is not getting through. Let me give an example or two to express my meaning.

Jan said to John, "Quit beating around the bush!"Let me ask you a question... Was John ACTUALLY beating around the bush or was he verbally not getting to the point?
Slade said, "I'm all ears!" Is Slade a walking pair of ears or is he listening intently?

A visual will help with that answer, Slade.. :-)

Re: [TruthTalk] A Call to Pray

2004-09-25 Thread michael douglas

Michael D: Yes Judy, There is much need for prayer. Of course God says, If my people... shall humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land.god requires us to do these things as a Body. May He help each of us to awake to thie necessity. God bless you.

"[EMAIL PROTECTED]" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Thanks Michael for encouraging us to pray about the storm headed for FLA, it's a bit difficult right now for me to be so single minded in the midst of all these kinfolk in AR but I will work on it. Here are some more concerns and reasons for vigilence ... jtBy Larry Tomczak, Senior PastorChrist the King Church of AtlantaLast week I was returning to Atlanta from a ministry trip in another state. Going to the airport, a twenty-something young man seated behind me in the van related the following account of his pregnant wifes recent death. While driving home at night, I simply dozed off for a few seconds. Rebounding, I found myself drifting into the next lane and then it was too late. The truck hit her side and I lost the love of my life and our first child. Tragedies happen. Some can be prevented, others cant. Wisdom dictates we
always be vigilant. In pivotal times, it is imperative that we dont let our guard down.Election 2004 is only a matter of weeks away. Are we ready? Do we grasp the significance of the moment? After 9/11 we knew we had our wake up call but how many have pushed the snooze alarm and drifted back to sleep?Recently I returned from another ministry trip to Amsterdam where I had a second wake up call and a preview of where America is headed if we dont vote our values and mobilize morality-minded masses. To register and then go to the ballot box on November 2nd is our Christian duty as salt and light. Good government comes from good leadership. When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; when the wicked rule, the people groan (Prov 29:2). Consider the following:Amsterdam, Holland is the launch pad for our nation. Remember where our first settlers came from? The Dutch explorer Hudson first came
to New York officially called New Netherlands. New York City was New Amsterdam. Brooklyn Harlem the Hudson. Pennsylvania Dutch derive their names from our early ancestors. And what was Holland known for then which continues today?Tolerance.Tolerance used to mean respect for others beliefs. Today it means respect for others conduct. In other words: there is no absolute standard of morality. Every man does what is right in his own eyes (Jdg 17:6).Taken to an extreme, where does this ideology lead? Presently in Amsterdam I observed:- Abortion legal and promoted- Euthanasia legal and promoted- Same-sex marriage legal and promoted- Drugs - legal and promoted (stop by your Starbucks equivalent and get some hashish with your mocha frappuchino) - Sex shows and pornography legal and promoted- Prostitution legal and promoted (27,000 registered ladies sitting in windows like
display items at Old Navy)- Homosexuality and lesbianism legal and promoted- Age of consent lowered to twelve (12)- Gambling legal and promoted- Sex-change operations (they call them gender reassignments) legal and promoted and subsidized by the government- Burnout or five-year drop out from work (due to depression) totally financed by tax dollars. Rampant and escalating. Most get full salary and can renew in five-year cycles for the rest of their lives!Upon returning from Amsterdam a Christian commented: Thats the future of America.I agree unless we stand strong and pray, fast, elect godly leaders and resist passivity like a plague. Consider the following: According to the Pew Research Center, in 2000 almost half of Americas 59 million evangelical Christians did not even register to vote. And only 15 million of the 35 million who were registered went to the polls.What remains?
The reality: only 25% of evangelical Christians voted in 2000 (an election decided by slightly over 500 votes!). Another reality: we cant prevail in the battle for our nations future, our families and our faith if Christians sit on the sidelines. The stakes are incredibly high!This election is not primarily about Republican versus Democrat. Its about two different worldviews! The two leaders hold completely different positions on the issues below:- War on terror- Sanctity of human life- Protecting the institution of marriage- Judicial appointments- Preserving references to God- Morality based on biblical standards vs. popular positions political correctness TOLERANCEIn Sweden a court recently sentenced a pastor to one month in prison for offending homosexuals in a sermon (citing Bible verses on the subject was called hate speech).In Germany a court recently decided two parents many not
educate their children at home for reasons of faith or conscience, but must send

RE: [TruthTalk] Eye of the Storm

2004-09-24 Thread michael douglas

Michael D: I'm relieved to see that. This area is to volatile to take lightly. Anyway, another storm threat is looming over the U.S. Florida again is in the firing line according to latest forcasts. How tough a prospect for you folks out there.
I remember sharing some weeks ago that the Lord showed me that the reason the authority over weather was being discussed on TT at this time was that folks would need to have that insight to deal with the things coming their way. That was after Charley. Never did I imagine that what has transpired so far is what He was trying to prepare folks for. I know that we've had alot of back and forth opinions about this area, but I want to reiterate the message. Folks have to take up the fight with authority and faith over their own backyard. I encourage you folks up north to resist the elements and speak death to the system, forbidding it from affecting you. If light comes and we don't walk in it we are left only with darkness, Jesus said. God has brought help. Folks should rise up and avail themselves of it. In all that has happened, God has been merciful in response to the fight of His people. I will continue to join the battle with you folks, but the coalition of
the willing must stand up and be counted for their land, not forgetting to inteercede for those who are lost in the process that they might come to light.
I know some folks have said that they don't believe in this stuff. Well, that's why I've shared volumes of my life experiences with you all that you may know that this is real. Is it that folks don't believe what I am saying and think I am making this stuff up? I have used many passages of scripture to support what I have been sharing. I feel like I've piped to a people all the day long... My hope is that folks will hear, and as Judy eloquently offered,press throughto the next level. It's not necessarily going to be perfect the first time or second ... but God expects us to grow from faith to faith and from glory to glory. One thing I don't want is to get stuck in the same level of faith and glory that former generations had. I want to press deep into the next level of exceeding abundantly above all that we can ask or think. God allows the challenges and threats ofcrises so that He can bring us there. Without it, most if not all of us would not
press into it.
So can we rally the troops one more time for a greatere measure of grace in God's inteervention with this threat. Again, a firm point of agreement will be important. Any takers? Will anyone seriously agree that that God turns the storm away from the U.S. coast and have it dissipate in the sea? If not, then an alternative.Slade Henson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

I do understand where you're coming from, Michael.

-- slade

It's unbelievable how this concept is not getting through. Let me give an example or two to express my meaning.

A visual will help with that answer, Slade.. :-)

GOT IT?
Anyway, that would be bad in a situation where the 'eyes' (aye's) have it!!! Oh, oh,I guess I'm getting 'corny' here... sorry guys
Michael D: Hey Slade, I guess If I had use text as huge as yours above in my clarification on the idioms e-mail, you would not have had to indulge...
Anyway I will try and repeat for you. I do use idioms and colloquialisms etc, but I am careful to avoid ones, or terms in them, that embody concepts contrary to my position and covenant in Christ (I'll resist the urge to enlarge that statement :-)) Does that make sense, Slade?
Again, I will not say that some part of my body, or anything for that matter, is killing me. That's careless speech. I don't want to release that concept in reference to myself. That's the enemy's playground. I seek to avoid terms like I am 'sick' of something/someone, or that someone makes me sick. Again, that is releasing raw material into the spirit realm that references me contrary to my covenant in Christ. The enemy seeks to enforce those things.
'Beating around the bush' does not reference contrary to Christ's covenant (as far as I can tell) so I might say that.
Can you see a difference there?
The principle is that our words, particularly when repeated over time, cut a track for the enemy to run on. They cangive him licence to operate. As Proverbs says, they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof. I won't impose another example on you folks, but I have seen the most innocuous utterances repeated over time do have big consequences.
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RE: [TruthTalk] Eye of the Storm

2004-09-23 Thread michael douglas

Slade Henson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

It's unbelievable how this concept is not getting through. Let me give an example or two to express my meaning.

A visual will help with that answer, Slade.. :-)

-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Judith H TaylorSent: Thursday, 22 July, 2004 08.41To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Eye of the Storm

On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 20:26:09 -0400 "Slade Henson" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Michael D: When I've share with believers things (even idiomsand slang) that they need to watch, they've frown on it or dismissed it as nonsense

jt: I'm not understanding what you refer to here Slade - when/where did Jesus the Word of God ever speak a "flowery _expression_" that wasan idiom and nothing more? Why did Jesus say it is by our words that we are justified and by our words we are condemned? Is this a powerless idiom or do these words mean what they say?

To advocate for more is to advocate error... in my (apparently singular opinion on this forum)... and I'm OK with that. I will say this, however, Michael... you are in good company because a good friend of mine (Don) believes identical to you on this point.-- slade

jt: I would be the last one to advocate "magic, or New Age thinking" However, IMO this is a very important principle. God is a God of His Word and Israel because of their own choices were forced to learn this the hard way. Since our purpose in life is to be conformed to the image of Christ who in turn is the "image of Father God" our words shouldbe words of character and integrity. My husband and Iare presently staying with family members who are nominal Christians and I am observingthe use of words to manipulate a high maintenance child. I believe these words will bear some rotten fruitcausing further bitterness and hardness in the life of this child which is very sad. judyt

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Re: [TruthTalk] Eye of the Storm

2004-09-22 Thread michael douglas

Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
michael douglas wrote:

Michael D: I lend my voice here to Judy's and Terry's. As I have repeated often recently, God has made faith the Law by which He intervenes on man's behalf. That's why we are justified by faith. God can do anything He chooses, but our faith/response to Him regulates His response to us. Jesus did said, if we can believe all things shall be possible to us.
Don't these things excite anyone like they do me? I long to see the supreme power of God in demonstration, and let the world see who the true God is. If we only can appreciate how God longs for us to understand this. I am trying to get a greater grasp on this, myself. The apostle Paul actually prayed for the Ephesians as recorded in CH 1, that the eyes of their understanding may be enlightened, that they may know the hope of God's calling... the exceeding greatness of His power towards us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power...
That power is towards us, in every area. I long to be excellent in walking that way in my life. Jesus said, herein is My Father glorified, that you bear much fruit. God set things up this way that the excellency of the power might be of God and not of us. But it is all for us and by us. Does any one shout a resounding amen to that. This thing stirs me so much writing here that I feel like promoting a TT caucus of the willing for the sake of pursuing the extreme manifestation of God's power in our lives, circumstances, nations and globe!!! And I dare pray... May God make that happen many times over accross this globe. May His true children wake up to their heritage, and enter into the fullness of His kingdom, for this is His Kingdom...
Good evening Michael. To answer your question on a personal note, not speaking for the group, but for myself, I can say that these things do not excite me like they do you. I kinda wish they did. I haven't been real excited about anything in a long time. If it were proper for a Christian to envy, I would envy you for your ability to get excited about these things. The fact is however, that God did not make me like you, or you like me. First Corinthians, chapter twelve pretty much spells this out. You get all excited by what God says here, while I simply accept it as truth. That should not be too surprising. The body of Christ can not be all big toes or left ears, or any other single part. You need a whole bunch of different parts doing different things to have a complete body. The ear cannot do the job of the kidney and you cannot drink coffee through your navel. The Lord made
us different so that we could do what He has designed us to do. That does not make one of us more saved or more spiritual than the other, just different. Blessings,TerryMichael D: Thanx for the blessings, Terry. Same to you and yours.
You do make a veryimportant point about giftings and motivations of the Spirit in a very diverse body. I take that point, most definitely.
I do see another side to it though, which is what I am seeking to stir up in folks. Paul prayed that we would all come to know the exceeding greatness of His power towards us who believe, according to His mighty power. Of course he also saw that God can do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think according to the power that is at work in us. I do believe that the Body of Christ has not yet caught a hold of that revelation much like the Ephesians for whom Paul was praying, had not. I do believe that as the end draws nearer God will effect this realization in His people ever increasingly and they will taste of, and manifest, greater and greater dimensions of this kingdom reality.
Now I am aware that there are many other aspects to the reality of God's Kingdom, but I believe that His power for all believers is an integral part of it. I keep remembering Paul's words where he stressed that the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power.
Permit me to quote II Peter 1:3-4 ... According as His divine power has given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who has called usto glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
Now, I do believe there must be balance in all things, but the emphasis of God's power in the kingdom is an underlying reality. Paul said he preached the Gospel to the Corinthians in such a way that their faith will not be in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
I emphasize these things because I believe that the Church has de-emphasized them too much, and in too many instances the Church appears weak to the world. All sorts of forces invade our domains and we seem at a loss re the spiritual power and authority to prevail upon them.
Just last night I saw a British pastor of Nigerian descent. He was relating some amazing details of muslim

RE: [TruthTalk] Eye of the Storm

2004-09-22 Thread michael douglas

Slade Henson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Michael D: When I've share with believers things (even idiomsand slang) that they need to watch, they've frown on it or dismissed it as nonsense

I am one who disagrees with you. Our Master and King used idioms when He was walking the Earth and Our Father in Heaven used idioms(even gross ones from our standards) in his dealings with the Prophets. An idiom is just that... a flowery _expression_. Nothing more. To advocate for more is to advocate error... in my (apparently singular opinion on this forum)... and I'm OK with that.

Michael D: Slade, I hear you, but there is much truth in what I am sharing here, and folks need to reconsider this area. Just remember the scripture say that death and life are in the power of the tongue. And James sys (as Judy quoted) that the tongue sets on fire the course of nature and directs the whole body. When you use idioms that release negative concepts into the real of the spirit (feet killing ... etc) you are releasing raw material for the enemy to bring things into reality against you. I use idioms, myself, but I modify them if they don't conform to my position in Christ or the realities of His covenant.
It's like whatI was sharing with a couple executives last week: there is nothing called coincidence. Everything that happens has a cause that is rooted in spiritual law.Often natural law can be identified in association with it as well. Things might happen that have no apparent logical explanation in the natural, but somewhere there were seeds sown that sprung the fruit, good or bad. I can tell you that whenever something negative happens to me, I make an initial search of my heart and try to tune into the Spirit. Quite often I realize that the Lord allowed it because I was off somewhere. Now, God has taught me to try and approach my walk like this. It has also helped me to understand alot of what is happening around me, and in the world.
For instance, the fact that all of these 'natural disasters are happening around the place are not freaks of nature, but a combination of the enemy attacking through them, God having to lift His hand of protection because of sin and rebellion, and a sleeping Church that needs to awaken to the role of power and authority and reconciliation that God has given it in the world.
To all TTers I say, make no bones about it, natural devastations, or devastations of any kind upon nations or peoples or individuals all contain elements of God's judgement. Sometimes it's just ignorance or unbelief, which God says He rejects among His people (Hosea 4:6, James 1:6-7). If you find that hard to relate to, Check Deut. 28. As is often pointed out, the vast preponderance of emphasis in this passage is on the judgement/curse verses. In fact, only up to vs. 13 talk about blessings, but from 15 down to vs 68 all talk in horrid detail of all the curses/judgements that will comefrom disobedience.
If folks feel that the negative effects of phenomena of all kinds don't reflect measures of God's judgement, then I suggest they take a look at the scriptures again. Proverbs 11:31 says: 'The righteous shall be recompensed in the earth, much more the wicked and the sinner.'
God even says that He recompenses the iniquity of the fathers down to the third and fourth generation. Things happen in families, nations etc, for seemingly no reason, but there is always a reason. It is Prov. 26:2 that stresses that the curse causeless does not come. The encouraging thing for believers isthat God works all things for good to them that love him...

I will say this, however, Michael... you are in good company because a good friend of mine (Don) believes identical to you on this point.
Thanx Slade.I assure you, though, that these are things that the Lord has taught me, at some considerable cost, and with much frustration and trepidation at times. I did not always think this way, even as a faith-conscious person, but as God put more and more before me, I had to adjust my thinking, especially when I saw the fall out. I have had loses so precious and far reaching through this stuff, that to this day after many, many years, my life is still affected. The power of the tongue is the power of God's authority vested in man. Jesus restored it to His Church by giving us the keys of the kingdom of heaven. We need wisdom in using it.

-- slade
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Re: [TruthTalk] Eye of the Storm

2004-09-22 Thread michael douglas

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In a message dated 9/21/2004 9:04:31 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Nor dissent? 
Wow -- I am embarrassed fr some reason. Jnho 
Michael D: One might be excused for wondering why you spelt your name wromg all the time, Jhno... 
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Re: [TruthTalk] Eye of the Storm

2004-09-21 Thread michael douglas

Exactly Terry - couldn't have said it better. Glad to hear that you and Vee were safe through
the storm. jt

On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 22:31:14 -0400 Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Slade Henson wrote:

My point is the difference between the "could" [the inability]and the "would" [the unwillingness].=I don't think that Judy or any other true believer would question God's ability. He is omnipotent. Still ,the Bible says He could not. I take this to mean not that He was impotent, but that He has set boundaries that He will not cross ( rules that even He will not break).Evidently, one of those rules required an attitude on the part of those there, that those there refused to adopt. ( similar to seeking grace without humility or salvation without repentance.)God is unwilling to lower the bar, therefore He is unable to act as He would act if His standards were met.That make sense?Terry

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RE: [TruthTalk] Eye of the Storm

2004-09-21 Thread michael douglas

Slade Henson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

jt said: Hi again Slade; I don't know about others but we do need to watch what comes out of our mouths as we have another Kingdom watching and waiting for a doorpoint of entry into our lives and God will not keep them out, this is our responsibility.
Michael D: I have to concur with Judy here 110%.I have lived this for years... God dealt with meto such an extent, that there were times wherein exasperation,I had to ask God whether there is anything I can say at all... When I've share with believers things (even idiomsand slangs) that they need to watch, they've frown on it or dismissed it as nonsense, and even rebuked me. Sometimes it's very humbling. The fact is, as Judy stated above,that we are living in an enemy occupied territory, and his kingdom holds sway in the main. As a result, negatives/adversity have right of way, without much effort exerted. When folks utter negative things, it's easy for that to be enforced in their circumstances. For positive results, however, one has (as a rule) to have a greater opposing effort of positive inputs (faith) to overthrow the negative forces holding sway... Words are spirit. Jesus said His
words were spirit and life. THat tells me that his words took on an additional characteristic to spirit, i.e. life. Proverbs tells us that death and lifeare in the power of the tongue. So as words can be spirit and life, they can also be spirit and death. Let me share an example... Many years ago when the Lord began to tighten the screws on me in this area, I saw a long-lost friend twice in two days. The second time, I declared to him...when it rains it pours... (idiom Slade?) Immediately, the Spirit of the Lord convicted me. I was very dismayed. I couldn't believe it (one of those times I pleaded ...can't I say anything?) I was to learn a couple serious lesson. The next morning I woke up at 4:30 as was usual. Within 30 seconds, rain started to pound upon the rooftop like I had never heard in my life (I mean that). Immediately I got apprehensive. Again, living in a low-lying area I have to be alert. I was wondering what was going on when I remembered
what I mouthed the evening before. I did'nt know what to do. I immediately repented of my words, after which it occurred to me that God saw me then just as if I had never sinned. I jumped on the devil and bound him over the weather and loosed the angels to stop the rain. Within about 30 seconds it stopped. I went about my day and there was not a drop for the entire day afterwards. I learned alot that morning. Casual words are not necessarily casual in the spirit realm.
One guy said that his foot was killing him, having knocked it. Figurative in his mind, of course, but he does not realize that he is realeasing a concept in the spirit world (killing him) that the enemy would like to sieze upon. Keep saying those things long enough, and the enemy will try to capitalize on them.
I know this is long, but permit me to share one more testimony. Once I was helping a retired teacher tutor some students at her home (she was a neighbourhood friend). I was unemployed at the time. It was voluntary, but she started giving me a token payment for doing it. Now when folks would ask me what I was doing job wise, I would say I was not working, but was giving a 'li'l lessons (tutoring)' and getting a little 'change'. Nontheless every day I was declaring the abundance of God over my life. One day the Spirit of the Lord convicted me and I realized what I was saying. I changed my answer to folks to something like, ' I am giving lessons andI am getting paid for it'. Believe it or not, withinprecious little time, I started receiving from her in one week more than she was giving me for a month. In fact, I was getting 6x what I was getting at the end of the month all along, and I never asked for it, nor expected it. I didn't
even know that she could afford it. I was amazed. My casual words had far more impact on my circumstances than I had any idea of. Thank God for the Holy Spirit who guides us into truth. I try to be very careful about the things I say now. I do not say when it rains... I now seek to determine how much it rains whenever it rains. Storms like Ivan I would never refer to as 'Ivan the terrible' regardless of how muchit is doing, and how much the media trumpets that. The enemy will have a field day with that. I seek to oppose that. As true children of God our lot is to determine outcomes not have them imposed upon us. Have I always prevailed, no, but I know where I want and need to be by God's grace...
slade says: Hello to you too, Judy. I still am referring to idioms. If you are referring to idioms we are in irreconcilable disagreement.jt: I have no idea what "granite like faith" would look like but nowhere in scripture do I see God blessing unbelief and doubt.

slade says: I am referring to "knowing without a shade of doubt." I see faith [or at least a strong form of it perhaps] as being a

RE: [TruthTalk] Five Million

2004-09-17 Thread michael douglas

Michael D: How about ...as many as I love I rebuke and chasten...ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:









Lance, 

We get tornadoes in St. Louis. And floods. Pretty much the same stuff in a different form. 
What does God use to discipline Canadians? Ice? 

My God loves us enough to warn us to repent of sin before it is too late. Doesnt yours?

Also, do you believe the words in the Bible are true? 

Izzy

PS Answers would be most appreciated. 

Psalm 9:7-8 But the LORD [Or sits as king] abides forever; He has established His throne for judgment, 
And He will judge the world in righteousness; He will execute judgment for the peoples with equity. 






From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance MuirSent: Friday, September 10, 2004 9:52 AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Five Million


Maybe God will 'send' a hurricane to St. Louis. Now, that'd get peoples attention. NOT when they occur where there's supposed to occur. 'Message'??Exactly what KIND of god(small 'g' intentional)do you serve, Linda?






- Original Message - 

From: ShieldsFamily 

To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Sent: September 10, 2004 11:36

Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Five Million


BTW, I thought about this and I want to add that I still believe that God can be sending a message about a need to repent from sin (individually, or statewide, or nationwide) when He allows such devastation. Especially when there are 3 hurricanes in 3 weeks! We should all take it to heart, and should all pray for repentance on our part and mercy on His. Izzy





From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of ShieldsFamilySent: Friday, September 10, 2004 6:55 AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Five Million

Terry, You are so very right on. I still do believe that we can pray for Gods direct intervention in His course of Nature. Izzy

At first glance, you would seem to offer a strong argument. I have been known to come up short in the areas of love and humility, so I would, at times, be one of the sinners that God is angry with every day. Further examination though, would show that through all this, Terry has lost nothing but some pears that the wind blew down. Our highest wind gusts were fifty mph, and the sustained wind was only about twenty-five mph. We did not even get all the rain we were hoping for (needed five inches, got two). God knows where to find me, and if He wants to smack me around, His aim is not that bad, so we need to examine other areas to see a possible solution to this dilemma. My own theory is since the rain falls on the just and the unjust at the same time, The Lord has
 pre-programmed the elements to operate in a manner that we call "Nature". After all, He appears to have done the same thing with the orbits of planets, with the seasons, and with the moon. Of course, if He chooses to interrupt those patterns, He could steer a storm as easily as He caused the sun to stand still. I am just not sure that He micro manages in every area. When I was lobster fishing in the keys, those storms scrubbed the reefs and bay bottoms thorougly, flushed out rivers and creeks, and generally improved conditions under the surface of our waters. Sponges and shell fish and the fishery were given a shot in the arm. We don't think about those things being part of God's plan. Our nature is to think only of ourselves.Maybe we need to think more.Thanks for thinking about us. We got another one on the wayHis will be done,Terry
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RE: [TruthTalk] Eye of the Storm

2004-09-17 Thread michael douglas

Michael D: PTL, Judy. Good to hear you're okay. I wonder what's the situation with Terry? Hope he's doing well also. God is a faithful God! HE's worthy of our praise.
Terry was asking for rain all the time. I guess we better be careful about what we ask for...
Did the eye miss him as he was hoping?"[EMAIL PROTECTED]" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hey,Thanks everyone for the encouragement. God is so good. We had wind howling and rain beating on our little camper all night as well as acorns dropping on the roof from the trees all around but when we woke up this morning the storm had abated; still a lot of rain but that is supposed to stop this afternoon. We had one tornado in the county but we learned of it after the fact. He was truly in the fire with us.God Bless You all, you are much appreciated,judyt--"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 and he will be subscribed.
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RE: [TruthTalk] Five Million

2004-09-13 Thread michael douglas

Folks, I sent this on Friday nite, but it seems like it didn't get through. It was in response to Izzy'inquiry in particular.

Michael D: Oh boy, seems like I have to thread carefully on this terrain... I would not want to ruffle Lance's or Izzy's feathers... Go easy guys!!! Is that possible on TT??? H.

Anyway to some serious stuff. Ivan was originally due to hit Barbados flush. THe Lord showed to my prayer partner and me during a time of prayer, three Caribbean nations that were in serious jeopardy. They are Jamaica, Guyana and Barbados. This was at the end of last week (Thursday,I believe). He showed my prayer partner that the pride of the Bajans (Barbadians) had stirred His anger (they are actually a very proud people). Both of my parents are from Barbados, and many of their relatives live their. One of my sisters does as well.
This revelation came to him just as the Lord had me taking a bit of a strange turn as we were winding down a long session of sharing around the things of God aand prayer. The Lord just put Jamaica on my heart, and I started to prophesy over it and to take up a lamentation over it. The Lord had me speaking that He was in sadness over Jamaica, that it was a land that He loved and longed to draw her unto Himself. Alot of sadness was being expressed in that prophecy, but interspersed with joy. It took me by surprise, but I stepped out in faith and strove to flow with the Spirit. He then had me do something similar with Guyana (the only English-speaking Caribbean country located in South America). This was more than a bit unusual the way it happened. When I was done, I thought my prayer partner would have a further confirming word on those countries, but he shared with me on what the Lord was showing him about Barbados when I was speaking over Jamaica.
Strange thing, this happened before this threat of Ivan materialized in the way that it did. You can imagine how taken aback we were as the events of this week unfolded, and finding that Jamaica, after the initial onslaught of Ivan, was directly in the path of this fella. Never did we realize how dramatic and imminent God's word to us was. Usually, one puts these things some distance in the future. Through it all we have prayed for God's mercy and fought the storm for dear life.
It still baffles me how folks can be so apathetic about something so serious. The people of Grenada were that way because they hadn't experienced anything like that for almost fifty years. Now Ivan has left 90% of the buildings either destroyed or badly damaged, down to the Prime Minister's residences (official and private) and the Governor General's. All that was left standing of the latter's is the foundation. Pride and an haughty spirit do precede destruction.
Strange thing about Ivan.It was heading flush for Barbados as category 4. I insisted that I was going to pray against it. My partner was not so convinced, since the Lord showed him the night before the storm's advent (while we were again in prayer - Sunday ) rooftops blowing off and trees falling. That's when I insisted It didn't matter that God's fury waswrapped up in this (revelation that night as well)but that I was going to pray against it. It was similar to the Frances and Florida situation. You allmight recall that I was not getting a witness from the Lord, when it was in the Caribbean, that Frances was going to die, but that I insisted that I was going to push the envelope. Well I didn't tell all, but the Lord was witnessing to me that Frances was not going to die, but God has been known to relent on His determination to execute judgement in the face offervent pleas and faith. That's the zone I was aiming my faith at
then.It was the samein this present scenario.
Thank God thatsuddenly Ivan turned away from Barbados. They still got a blow with some destruction and a death, but they reported that it was alot less than they had anticipated with the original category 4 status and direct hit that were forcast. That was a victory of God's mercy in judgement. Standing in the gap works.
Irony of ironies, it turned towards Trinidad and Tobago (TnT). Well, all of myspiritual systems went into high gear. I have to admit I was in some considerable trepidation, since the Lord was doing some serious dealings with me at the time. I was groping for a sense of His favour and reassurance in order to fight the faith battle. He started giving it bit by bit, and did not allow me to eat any meals all of that Tuesday. I went through a vast array of warfare strategies as I depended on the Lord to guide me, from warfare praise, worship and dancing before the Lord, to repentance and asking God to search my heart and mourning over unchristlike charasterics that I have exhibited. This is something I am going to have to do alot more of. As Joshua had to learn, don't go to battle with anything 'unclean' in the camp.
The result??? The landfall kept being delayed and delayed, and the storm was downgraded to a

Re: [TruthTalk] Eye of the Storm

2004-09-13 Thread michael douglas

Michael D: Hey Slade, I am happy to hear that something shared on the 'weather management theme seemed to benefit you (I am assuming that you're not pulling our legs). Do you care to give some insight into the passage you're referring to. This may be a bit of a selfish request, butjusta hint that someone may have been able to lay hold on some of what I have been sharinggives hope that I have not 'laboured' in vain on this issue.
Incidentally, twice I tried to give an account of God's miraculous deliverance from Ivan for Trinidad, and to a lesser extent Tobago, as requested by Izzy. I did so on Friday night, and also today, and neither shows up on TT. I might try one more time on that one.
Slade Henson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


I would like to thank Michael Douglas for a small Biblical passage he mentioned in one of his last Weather Management emails.

I alsowould like to provide you all a small look at Hurricane Ivan the Terrible... http://www.nrlmry.navy.mil/tc_pages/tc_home.html

May God continue to provide his protection for those under it's "eye."

-- slade
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Re: [TruthTalk] Five Million

2004-09-10 Thread michael douglas

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In a message dated 9/9/2004 4:22:18 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
While I do not agree on this prayer controlling weather thing, I have to let you know that this weekend, while in Pismo Beach, the local news station over there described the dramatic downturn for Frances as "unexplainable." Why do I think Michael will return post with a hearty amen? Michael, you write I trust the believing weather warriors will hang in there. Hey John, I wish you would become a believer. Could you
 explain the last phrase paaaeese. john 
Sorry John. I see the problem.I meant a believer re God's desire for folks to access this area of grace concerning the weather. I did't intend to cause you anguish I am curious, though. Why, in the face of such compelling evidence, and knowing the good that it could do, would you not believe that God is really doing this. 
Let me share with you that since the Lord has led me into this arena full fledged, I have not owned an umbrella. That has been many a year now (about 16in all). I fight to exercise my authority to meet the challenges. 
Do you think, John, that these results (and those Izzy described) would work if God was not directly involved? Personally, I don't know how to work magic. How do you relate to the many scriptures I've shared on it? Don't they bring anything to brear on your position at all? I am curious to know. If not, I would love to hear your reason(s) why not, or anyone else's for that matter.
Now I know folks say they don't agree, but should not our positions be subject to the Word of God, and not be sovereign because we think that God would not do a certain thing? Just a thought...
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RE: [TruthTalk] Five Million

2004-09-10 Thread michael douglas

Michael D: Oh boy, seems like I have to thread carefully on this terrain... I would not want to ruffle Lance's or Izzy's feathers... Go easy guys!!! Is that possible on TT??? H.

Anyway to some serious stuff. Ivan was originally due to hit Barbados flush. THe Lord showed to my prayer partner and me during a time of prayer, three Caribbean nations that were in serious jeopardy. They are Jamaica, Guyana and Barbados. This was at the end of last week (Thursday,I believe). He showed my prayer partner that the pride of the Bajans (Barbadians) had stirred His anger (they are actually a very proud people). Both of my parents are from Barbados, and many of their relatives live their. One of my sisters does as well.
This revelation came to him just as the Lord had me taking a bit of a strange turn as we were winding down a long session of sharing around the things of God aand prayer. The Lord just put Jamaica on my heart, and I started to prophesy over it and to take up a lamentation over it. The Lord had me speaking that He was in sadness over Jamaica, that it was a land that He loved and longed to draw her unto Himself. Alot of sadness was being expressed in that prophesy, but interspersed with joy. It took me by surprise, but I stepped out in faith and strove to flow with the Spirit. He then had me do something similar with Guyana (the only English-speaking Caribbean country located in South America). This was more than a bit unusual the way it happened. When I was done, I thought my prayer partner would have a further confirming word on those countries. Then he shared with me on what the Lord was showing him about Barbados when I was speaking over Jamaica.
Strange thing, this happened before this threat of Ivan materialized in the way that it did. You can imagine how taken aback we were as the events of this week unfolded, and finding that Jamaica, after the initial onslaught of Ivan, was directly in the path of this fella. Never did we realize how dramatic and immanent God's word to us was. Through it all we have prayed for God's mercy and fought the storm for dear life.
It still baffles me how folks can be so apathetic about something so serious. The people of Grenada were that way because they hadn't experienced anything like that for almost fifty years. Now Ivan has left 90% of the buildings either destroyed or badly damaged, down to the Prime Minister's residences (official and private) and the Governor General's. All that was left standing of the latter's is the foundation.
Strange thing about Ivan.It was heading flush for Barbados as category 4. I insisted that I was going to pray against it. He was not so convinced, since the Lord showed him the night before the storm's advent (while we were again in prayer - Sunday ) rooftops blowing off and trees falling. That's when I insisted It didn't matter that God's fury waswrapped up in this (revelation that night as well)but that I was going to pray against it. It wa similar to the Frances and Florida situation. You allmight recall that I was not getting a witness from the Lord, when it was in the Caribbean, that Frances was going to die, but that I was going to push the envelope. Well I didn't tell all, but the Lord was witnessing to me that Frances was not going to die, but God has been known to relent on His determination to execute judgement in the face offervent pleas and faith. That's the zone I was aiming my faith at then.It was the
samein this present scenario.
Thank God thatsuddenly Ivan turned away from Barbados. They still got a blow with some destruction and a death, but they reported that it was alot less than they had anticipated with the original category 4 status and direct hit that were forcast. That was a victory of God's mercy in judgement. Standing in the gap works.
Irony of ironies, it turned towards Trinidad and Tobago (TnT). Well, all of myspiritual systems went into high alert. I have to admit I was in some considerable trepidation, since the Lord was doing some serious dealings with me at the time. I was groping for a sense of His favour and reassurance in order to fight the faith battle. He started giving it bit by bit, and did not allow me to eat any meals all of that Tuesday. I went through a vast array of warfare strategies as I depended on the Lord to guide me, from warfare praise, worship and dancing before the Lord, to repentance and asking God to search my heart and mourning over unchristlike charasterics that I have exhibited. This is something I am going to have to do alot more of. As Joshua had to learn, don't go to battle with anything 'unclean' in the camp.
The result??? The landfall kept being delayed and delayed, and the storm was downgraded to a category 2 (sounds familiar?). It began to veer away from Tobago after many hours... at that point I knew I/we had gotten a breakthrough. I was encouraged and relieved. The Holy Spirit even had me at one point stamp on Ivan's head (figuratively folks, figuratively...).

RE: [TruthTalk] Re:How To Get Someone's Attention/punish someone

2004-09-10 Thread michael douglas

ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:









Your parents, obviously, never spanked you. Too bad. Izzy
Michael D: Why do you say that Izzy? Is it because he seems to have the methodology all wrong???Just being mischievous folks... And to think that I was going to thread carefully around you two...





From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance MuirSent: Friday, September 10, 2004 1:50 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [TruthTalk] Re:How To Get Someone's Attention/punish someone


Hit them up side the head with sufficient force to break their eardrum. Then, go to the other ear. Then, move on to other parts of their anatomy. This may be carried out following bad behavior. It may or may not alter their behavior. It will gain their attention I assure you.



This is a metaphor.
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RE: [TruthTalk] Re:How To Get Someone's Attention/punish someone

2004-09-10 Thread michael douglas

I really thought you needed the help, but since you have now reassured me, I will give you a clear path to the subject... Seems like you're trying your best to liberate a liberal. Hmmm. Tread carefully, Izzy. Anyway, he's all yours. I'll fight with the weather...ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:









No way, Michael, youre knee deep in this, too! J Although I can beat up on Lance quite nicely by myself, Im always looking for helpers!!! Izzy





From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of michael douglasSent: Friday, September 10, 2004 5:40 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Re:How To Get Someone's Attention/punish someone


ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Your parents, obviously, never spanked you. Too bad. Izzy
Michael D: Why do you say that Izzy? Is it because he seems to have the methodology all wrong???Just being mischievous folks... And to think that I was going to thread carefully around you two...




From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance MuirSent: Friday, September 10, 2004 1:50 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [TruthTalk] Re:How To Get Someone's Attention/punish someone

Hit them up side the head with sufficient force to break their eardrum. Then, go to the other ear. Then, move on to other parts of their anatomy. This may be carried out following bad behavior. It may or may not alter their behavior. It will gain their attention I assure you.

This is a metaphor.



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Re: [TruthTalk] Five Million

2004-09-09 Thread michael douglas

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In a message dated 9/7/2004 7:56:47 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Michael D: Well, what do you know?!?!?! Trinidad and Tobago are inder a warning re Ivan. It has concerned me alot. I have been fighting it and praying against. I am doing all that I can to stave off the danger. I'll be continuing as long as the threat looms. I am looking to God for mercy on our land. I am not too surprised that this would present itself. It has also forced me to do some soul searching and have the dealings of God with me personally. Sometimes we can neglect things and only in a real battle do we rise up to deal with them. Well, I will get back to the vigil now, and may God grant us grace and mercy. The fight is on...
While I do not agree on this prayer controling weather thing, I have to let you know that this weekend, while in Pismo Beach, the local news station over there described the dramatic downturn for Frances as "unexplainable." Why do I think Michael will return post with a hearty amen?
Michael D: Amen! Praise the Lord!!! I say that, because the Lord deserves it. I do say it with a bit of a heavy heart, though: seeing what has occurred with Florida, and now what has happened in the Caribbean of late.We have to seek to take authority over Ivan re Jamaica, Cuba and Florida again. I trust the believing weather warriors will hang in there. Hey John, I wish you would become a believer. God wants you to. In fact, the reason this discussion is on TT isfor that very reason. God wants His people to awake to the broad scope of His grace and providence for them. There is a saying something like this...without God, man cannot, but without man, God will not... Remember God's people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. Can you imagine if Frances remained an its initial strength what would have happened to
Florida? Thank God some folks believed God enough to stand in the gap and attack the enemy. Key thing here, though, is that Floridians need to wake up to the need to protect their land and the authority available to do it.
Now, God Is allowing these storms to send a massage as well, but mercy does triumph over judgement. I think God prefers that His people sound the trumpet from the house tops and call the nations to repentance, and have his prophets warn of specific impending danger, so that if they harden their necks, when that judgement comes, they have an opportunity to know beyond the shadow of a doubt why it's happening and where they can turn to stay the destruction.
I know of a situation in the Phillipines where an evangelist was doing a crusade and the people took him lightly. the next night people were eager to give their lives to the Lord, why??? An earthquake hit the area... The hard hearts suddenly softened to the same gospel from the previous night. It's how many of the prophets of old operated.
Remember, God did tell Ezekiel that if he warned the wicked and he does not turn, then Ezekiel would have been free of blame. If he did not warn, the wicked would die in his wickedness... Ezekiel would be guilty. God help us. Again, I'm saying I believe God's preferred method is serious warning of impending judgement, not just judging because sin exists. But we all know that sin must incur judgement.
When I have some more time, I will share some of the miraculous deliverence God provided from Ivan for Trinidad, and to a lesser extent Tobago. We really had some warfare on our hands...
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RE: [TruthTalk] Five Million

2004-09-09 Thread michael douglas

Michael D: As you all should know by now, There is another threat looming over Florida. This is the worst so far. Jamaica and Cubaare also in serious danger. I encourage those who believe that God intervense in response to faith and authority in these areas, like Izzy has encouraged, to fight this one off. Remember, that the highest name is Jesus, not Ivan. I trust that God will grant favour as folks attack it from now. It has already done untold damage. Again, I encourage folks to agree on a point of attack. There was not much clearly stated agreement re Frances, but thank God he answered in great measure nontheless. I really believe God honoured Izzy's decision to offer a sacrificial fast. A category 4 Frances would have been a near massacre. As usual I will rebuke the storm. I'll do so for Jamaica and the islands, and Florida. Folks should seek to depend on the Holy Spirit to give the mind of Christ. I would suggest that we believe God to bring
 the the storm to nought, and speak that to Ivan directly in the name of Jesus. As I've said before, this is very serious business. I suggest meditating on Mark 4:35-41, and Mark 11:12-14,20-24.ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:









Today I heard that 9 have died as a result of Frances. Seems like a whole lot more were lost due to Charley. Lets pray protection for the Caribbean and all inhabited areas. Izzy





From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Slade HensonSent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 3:21 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Five Million


Sadly, more than ZERO people died from Charley and even more from Frances.



The track for Ivan has been determined more southern than the GIF file given by G, so it actually poses a greater threat to both Trinidad and Florida than before.



Please see the updated GIF forecast.

-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of ShieldsFamilySent: Monday, September 06, 2004 9:55 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Five Million
Slade,

My daughter in law has been alone with her 3 children all weekend in the bad weather in Valdosta GA. Yesterday they had no power for 8 hours. Today for over an hour. My son had to leave the state Friday to evacuate his jet, and may not be able to return tomorrow if the weather hasnt cleared by then.

The good news is that few if any lives were lost in this huge storm in Florida over the weekend. Praise the Lord.

Izzy
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RE: [TruthTalk] Five Million

2004-09-07 Thread michael douglas

Michael D: Well, what do you know?!?!?! Trinidad and Tobago are inder a warning re Ivan. It has concerned me alot. I have been fighting it and praying against. I am doing all that I can to stave off the danger. I'll be continuing as long as the threat looms. I am looking to God for mercy on our land. I am not too surprised that this would present itself. It has also forced me to do some soul searching and have the dealings of God with me personally. Sometimes we can neglect things and only in a real battle do we rise up to deal with them. 
Well, I will get back to the vigil now, and may God grant us grace and mercy. The fight is on...ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:









Slade,

My daughter in law has been alone with her 3 children all weekend in the bad weather in Valdosta GA. Yesterday they had no power for 8 hours. Today for over an hour. My son had to leave the state Friday to evacuate his jet, and may not be able to return tomorrow if the weather hasnt cleared by then.

The good news is that few if any lives were lost in this huge storm in Florida over the weekend. Praise the Lord.

Izzy





From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Slade HensonSent: Monday, September 06, 2004 6:59 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [TruthTalk] Five Million


Over 5,000,000 homes have lost power from Hurricanes Charley and Frances. Will Ivan finish the Floridian power grid at week's end?



-- slade
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RE: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature

2004-09-03 Thread michael douglas

Michael D: Keep fighting the fight, Izzy. I continue to do the same. Thank God Trinidad and Tobago are not affected by the storm. I am curious, Iz, what brought that question up? 
Anyway, Folks have to keep holding faith and taking authority over that threat and the enemy that is tis source.ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:









Right on, Michael. Agreed. Every time I see/hear news reports about it I rebuke the storm in Jesus name and ask the Lord to dispatch His angels to push it back out to sea where it wont hurt anyone, and dissipate it. Michael is there any chance of this storm impacting you if we dont pray against it? Izzy





From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of michael douglasSent: Thursday, September 02, 2004 8:34 AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature


Michael D: Izzy, I am glad to hear that you have taken time to share your stand with us. Personally, I am rebuking the storm and speaking death to it. I am not getting a clear witness from the Holy Spirit about it dying, but I am trying to push the envelope. 

I would say, though, that you folks States side need to take up the initiative here to protect the land. That is where alot of the agreement should be pursued. Maybe the folks in Florida and the east coast could commit to some point of agreement, here. Rebuking the storm from approaching your coast and then speaking death to it would be good targets.aid if we speak to the mountain and believe in our hearts that it will be removed, we will have whatever we say. Put him in remembrance. He will know then that you are taking His Word seriously and believing. Find scriptures that build your faith in God's abulity to do this and meditate on them and declare themover the threat.Some may need to fast, too. Remember this is a battle. 

I will continue to speak death to it and believe God with you all. I will want to know where you all are pitching as well.

Now, lest anyone is mistaken, I am not a know-it-all, nor the ultimate faith person. I have to fight the fight of faith in this like anyone else and depend on the Holy Spirit to help me through. Searching my heart to see if I have any sin or rebellion is also a critical part of this. I encourage folks to do the same.

Anyway, I would like to hear where folks are on this, Izzy, along with your feedback.



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Re: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature

2004-09-03 Thread michael douglas

Michael D: That's a good idea. What are you suggesting exactly? Some clarity to your suggestion may help.Lance Muir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

To all 'storm-rebukers':After you've (in God's name of course) accomplished this may I suggest taking on the crisis in the Middle East. 

- Original Message - 
From: michael douglas 
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: September 02, 2004 10:33
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature

Michael D: Izzy, I am glad to hear that you have taken time to share your stand with us. Personally, I am rebuking the storm and speaking death to it. I am not getting a clear witness from the Holy Spirit about it dying, but I am trying to push the envelope. 
I would say, though, that you folks States side need to take up the initiative here to protect the land. That is where alot of the agreement should be pursued. Maybe the folks in Florida and the east coast could commit to some point of agreement, here. Rebuking the storm from approaching your coast and then speaking death to it would be good targets.aid if we speak to the mountain and believe in our hearts that it will be removed, we will have whatever we say. Put him in remembrance. He will know then that you are taking His Word seriously and believing. Find scriptures that build your faith in God's abulity to do this and meditate on them and declare themover the threat.Some may need to fast, too. Remember this is a battle. 
I will continue to speak death to it and believe God with you all. I will want to know where you all are pitching as well.
Now, lest anyone is mistaken, I am not a know-it-all, nor the ultimate faith person. I have to fight the fight of faith in this like anyone else and depend on the Holy Spirit to help me through. Searching my heart to see if I have any sin or rebellion is also a critical part of this. I encourage folks to do the same.
Anyway, I would like to hear where folks are on this, Izzy, along with your feedback.

ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Michael D,

Thank you for the exhortation, brother! I will stand with you against this storm. (Even though Im a woman, not a man.) Please share with us exactly how you will pray, because I believe we should pray in agreement. I always rebuke the storm in the name of Jesus because of, Matt. 8:26 He said to them, "Why are you afraid, [Matt 6:30; 14:31; 16:8; 17:20] you men of little faith?" Then He got up and rebuked the winds and the sea, and it became perfectly calm. How exactly do you suggest we pray? 

Izzy

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of michael douglasSent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 5:17 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature

Michael D: Folks, here we go again. Another mega threat is heading to the shores of the U.S. Florida is again in the projected firing line. I really hope that folks will take the things that I have been trying to convey seriously. Last week, twice I felt the Spirit of the Lord witness to me that the reason He has had me sharing along these lines, was to spare His people and those around them the effects of these ravages. I am personally a bit pained to see the current threat loom up. It seems that the enemy has trailed His guns at the U.S. (not exclusively, but most definitely). I encourage you folks to please press the resistance.
 Resist the devil and He will flee from you. From what I heard, they are forcasting many more to hit the US this year. I believe that the people of God have the final say with that. Forbid any more storms from coming up.

Let me just say that often I listen to weather reports on local tv and when they forcast stuff, I say within myself, no way. Regularly, the next day they give the 'meteoroligical' reasons for the unexpected occurences, for example, some different wind direction comes and took the precipitation out to sea etc.

Let me give you all a verse that I hope increases our faith and shows how serious God is about this stuff:

Is 45: 11. Thus saith the Lord, the Holy One of Israel and His Maker, Ask Me of things to come concerning My sons, and concerning the work of My hands command ye Me.12. I have created the earth and created man upon it: I, even My hands, have stretched out
 the heavens, and all their host haveI commanded.

Remember that God said He was looking for a man to stand in the gap and make up a hedge... 

I will seek to lend support to any effort to resist the storm(s). Will any one put God in remembrance of His word and make demands on His power?. THere's nothing to lose and all to gain, I would think.

I think God is trying to enforce a paradigm shift here. 

A la Judy... Crush the status quo... 

michael douglas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

jt: True Jesus came to do good and to heal ALL who are oppressed of the devil. I know faith is important but spiritual discernment is vital also Michael. If the enemy has a toehold or doorpoint in our live

Re: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature

2004-09-03 Thread michael douglas

Michael D: I hear you, John. I would encourage you to revisit some of the scriptures I have been sharing that reveal God's attitude towards these things. Believe me, I did not make this up. If God were not for it, then there would never be any consistent results to show for it. The thing is He really wants his people to wake up to it and cooperate with Him so He can so Himself strong on their behalf.
How did you relate to the verses in Isaiah 45 that I shared recently?

11. Thus saith the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, and His Maker, Ask Me of things to come concerning My sons, and concerning the works of My hands command ye Me. 12. I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even My hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.
I would really love you, and other TTers to give their feed- back on the implications of these verses in the light of our ongoing discussion re the weather. Is anyone relating to this the same way I am?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
MichaelD -- you know that I do not agree with the _expression_ of your faith in regards to the weather -- BUT, I certainly respect your point of view. There are many brethren in my church who believe the very same thing. All of us on TT (except that one atheist type) beleiees in prayer and are praying for you folks. The storm is losing force somewhat -- so who is to say who is right. Give God the glory no matter what. The wife and are are off to the coast. See you folks on Tuesday. a brother,JohnIn a message dated 9/3/2004 6:59:34 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Michael D: Keep fighting the fight, Izzy. I continue to do the same. Thank God Trinidad and Tobago are not affected by the storm. I am curious, Iz, what brought that question up? Anyway, Folks have to keep holding faith and taking authority over that threat and the enemy that is tis source.ShieldsFamily
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Right on, Michael. Agreed. Every time I see/hear news reports about it I rebuke the storm in Jesus’ name and ask the Lord to dispatch His angels to push it back out to sea where it won’t hurt anyone, and dissipate it. Michael is there any chance of this storm impacting you if we don’t pray against it? Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of michael douglasSent: Thursday, September 02, 2004 8:34 AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature Michael D: Izzy, I am glad to hear that you have taken time to share your stand with us. Personally, I am rebuking the storm and speaking death to it. I am not getting a clear witness from the Holy Spirit about it dying, but I am trying to push the envelope. I would say, though, that you folks States side need to take up the initiative here to protect the land. That is where alot of the agreement should be pursued. Maybe the folks in Florida and the east coast could commit to some point of agreement, here. Rebuking the storm from approaching your coast and then speaking death to it would be good targets.aid if we speak to the mountain and
believe in our hearts that it will be removed, we will have whatever we say. Put him in remembrance. He will know then that you are taking His Word seriously and believing. Find scriptures that build your faith in God's abulity to do this and meditate on them and declare them over the threat. Some may need to fast, too. Remember this is a battle. I will continue to speak death to it and believe God with you all. I will want to know where you all are pitching as well.Now, lest anyone is mistaken, I am not a know-it-all, nor the ultimate faith person. I have to fight the fight of faith in this like anyone else and depend on the Holy Spirit to help me through. Searching my heart to see if I have any sin or rebellion is also a critical part of this. I encourage folks to do the same.Anyway, I would like to hear where folks are on this, Izzy, along with your feedback.
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RE: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature

2004-09-02 Thread michael douglas

Michael D: Izzy, I am glad to hear that you have taken time to share your stand with us. Personally, I am rebuking the storm and speaking death to it. I am not getting a clear witness from the Holy Spirit about it dying, but I am trying to push the envelope. 
I would say, though, that you folks States side need to take up the initiative here to protect the land. That is where alot of the agreement should be pursued. Maybe the folks in Florida and the east coast could commit to some point of agreement, here. Rebuking the storm from approaching your coast and then speaking death to it would be good targets.aid if we speak to the mountain and believe in our hearts that it will be removed, we will have whatever we say. Put him in remembrance. He will know then that you are taking His Word seriously and believing. Find scriptures that build your faith in God's abulity to do this and meditate on them and declare themover the threat.Some may need to fast, too. Remember this is a battle. 
I will continue to speak death to it and believe God with you all. I will want to know where you all are pitching as well.
Now, lest anyone is mistaken, I am not a know-it-all, nor the ultimate faith person. I have to fight the fight of faith in this like anyone else and depend on the Holy Spirit to help me through. Searching my heart to see if I have any sin or rebellion is also a critical part of this. I encourage folks to do the same.
Anyway, I would like to hear where folks are on this, Izzy, along with your feedback.

ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:









Michael D,

Thank you for the exhortation, brother! I will stand with you against this storm. (Even though Im a woman, not a man.) Please share with us exactly how you will pray, because I believe we should pray in agreement. I always rebuke the storm in the name of Jesus because of, Matt. 8:26 He said to them, "Why are you afraid, [Matt 6:30; 14:31; 16:8; 17:20] you men of little faith?" Then He got up and rebuked the winds and the sea, and it became perfectly calm. How exactly do you suggest we pray? 

Izzy





From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of michael douglasSent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 5:17 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature


Michael D: Folks, here we go again. Another mega threat is heading to the shores of the U.S. Florida is again in the projected firing line. I really hope that folks will take the things that I have been trying to convey seriously. Last week, twice I felt the Spirit of the Lord witness to me that the reason He has had me sharing along these lines, was to spare His people and those around them the effects of these ravages. I am personally a bit pained to see the current threat loom up. It seems that the enemy has trailed His guns at the U.S. (not exclusively, but most definitely). I encourage you folks to please press the resistance.
 Resist the devil and He will flee from you. From what I heard, they are forcasting many more to hit the US this year. I believe that the people of God have the final say with that. Forbid any more storms from coming up.

Let me just say that often I listen to weather reports on local tv and when they forcast stuff, I say within myself, no way. Regularly, the next day they give the 'meteoroligical' reasons for the unexpected occurences, for example, some different wind direction comes and took the precipitation out to sea etc.

Let me give you all a verse that I hope increases our faith and shows how serious God is about this stuff:



Is 45: 11. Thus saith the Lord, the Holy One of Israel and His Maker, Ask Me of things to come concerning My sons, and concerning the work of My hands command ye Me.12. I have created the earth and created man upon it: I, even My hands, have stretched out
 the heavens, and all their host haveI commanded.



Remember that God said He was looking for a man to stand in the gap and make up a hedge... 



I will seek to lend support to any effort to resist the storm(s). Will any one put God in remembrance of His word and make demands on His power?. THere's nothing to lose and all to gain, I would think.

I think God is trying to enforce a paradigm shift here. 

A la Judy... Crush the status quo... 

michael douglas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


jt: True Jesus came to do good and to heal ALL who are oppressed of the devil. I know faith is important but spiritual discernment is vital also Michael. If the enemy has a toehold or doorpoint in our lives with our consent then God's hands are tied in that area. 

I agree. That's where depending on the Holy Spirit to show us why results are falling short, comes in. I have learned that walking in faith means walking with the Holy Spirit. We must strive to be in close communication with him, so that if we are veering off course, He can correct us. But God's promises are yeah and amen, and He will never say no to something He promised. He can't be do

Re: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature

2004-09-01 Thread michael douglas

Michael D: Folks, here we go again. Another mega threat is heading to the shores of the U.S. Florida is again in the projected firing line. I really hope that folks will take the things that I have been trying to convey seriously. Last week, twice I felt the Spirit of the Lord witness to me that the reason He has had me sharing along these lines, was to spare His people and those around them the effects of these ravages. I am personally a bit pained to see the current threat loom up. It seems that the enemy has trailed His guns at the U.S. (not exclusively, but most definitely). I encourage you folks to please press the resistance. Resist the devil and He will flee from you. From what I heard, they are forcasting many more to hit the US this year. I believe that the people of God have the final say with that. Forbid any more storms from coming up.
Let me just say that often I listen to weather reports on local tv and when they forcast stuff, I say within myself, no way. Regularly, the next day they give the 'meteoroligical' reasons for the unexpected occurences, for example, some different wind direction comes and took the precipitation out to sea etc.
Let me give you all a verse that I hope increases our faith and shows how serious God is about this stuff:

Is 45: 11. Thus saith the Lord, the Holy One of Israel and His Maker, Ask Me of things to come concerning My sons, and concerning the work of My hands command ye Me.12. I have created the earth and created man upon it: I, even My hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host haveI commanded.

Remember that God said He was looking for a man to stand in the gap and make up a hedge...

I will seek to lend support to any effort to resist the storm(s). Will any one put God in remembrance of His word and make demands on His power?. THere's nothing to lose and all to gain, I would think.
I think God is trying to enforce a paradigm shift here.
A la Judy... Crush the status quo...
michael douglas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

jt: True Jesus came to do good and to heal ALL who are oppressed of the devil. I know faith is important but spiritual discernment is vital also Michael. If the enemy has a toehold or doorpoint in our lives with our consent then God's hands are tied in that area.
I agree. That's where depending on the Holy Spirit to show us why results are falling short, comes in. I have learned that walking in faith means walking with the Holy Spirit. We must strive to be in close communication with him, so that if we are veering off course, He can correct us. But God's promises are yeah and amen, and He will never say no to something He promised. He can't be doubleminded. In fact He is our Helper, so He will help us to get to the point of faith and receiving if we learn to depend on Him. We have to believe that He will, though,before He will be able to (like everything else with God). '...He that comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him...'
Is this making sense to you at all, Judy, or anyone else for that matter?

My point is that that too often we relegate non results to not being God's will rather that our insufficient application of faith (for what everreason). Whatever God has provided is unreservedly available to usnoquestions asked. AllJesus commands is that we abide inHim and let His words abide in us.

jt: Not too many of us (me included) press in like the importune woman. I know a pastor who will not give up on people with problems and he gets results. However, he is an extreme minority - the only one I know of like this, if there are others out there I don't know about them. Do you have some where you are Michael?

In my own life, the biggest hindrance lies right here. A strong faith life requires great spiritual discipline to keep our hearts filled with the word and revelation of Jesus, who is the author of our faith, and remain in a yielded and obedient state before Him. He is the one who said that then we can ask what we will and it shall be done. God wants us to realize that the only thing that gets done on the earth is what man wills or allows. The enemy works easily with both. God requires the former, that's why He says you ask what you will... The way we avoid missing His agenda is in our abiding/oneness with Him. Then we're in a position to have the mind of Christ.

jt: The devil is shouting much louder in this present world system. He is an oracle of fear in the earth and just about everywhere we look we are encouraged to be fearful about something. Just about all of our TV commercials these days are either pharmaceutical products or exercise equipment... the perils of being fat or sick are in our faces constantly and when we are not being reminded of them we have the threat of storms and/or terrorism.

I think Judy hit the nail on the head:

jt: No attack John, but how about a challenge to the status quo?

jt: Glad we can bein agreement about this Michael

Re: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature

2004-08-30 Thread michael douglas

I think Judy hit the nail on the head:

jt: No attack John, but how about a challenge to the status quo?

jt: Glad we can bein agreement about this Michael.
The reason I've tried to keep this thread alive is to impress upon folks to do just that, Judy and John et al. Challenge the traditional and somewhat casual mindset and have folks look to a greater measure of grace that is available to us. Faith can move mountains. Too often, though, we settle for molehills and even pebbles. God wants us to come up higher and reign as kings on the earth. That means getting your will done! Having what you desire etc. The check valve is our abiding in him and His word abiding in us. One more scripture here: 2 Cor 1:20 - 'For all the promises of God in Him are yea and amen unto the glory of God by us'. Once God promises it, He expects us to believe
it no questions asked, for we know that He is not double minded. Failures then fall into our garden, not God's.

jt: Only thing I find conflicting above is the will/desires. In my understanding things begin to happen when we are so one with Him that His will becomes our will and His desires become our desires. Until then we may receivea few crumbs but we won't be walking in the kind of faith that moves mountains.
Michael D:Judy, I agree with this. This is why I keep using Jn 15:7 ... We have to abide in Him and have His word abide in us. What I keep trying to stress is that it's man's will that God needs to get His will done. The problem is that we have such a minuscule appreciation for the enorminity of what God's will entails and that He wants to do in and through us, that often folks say God did not do such and such because it was not His will.
For fear of being misunderstood, let me state categorically that I know that that happens, but often God is creditted for our unbelief, "lack of knowledge' (Hos.4:6), among other things. Paul exhorts us to understand what the will of the Lord is. That's why I have used so many scriptures so we can see from scripture what Jesus and others say the attitude of God is.
How often do we inquire of God as to why something we expected or were believing for didn't happen?

Re: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature

2004-08-25 Thread michael douglas

Michael D: Judy touched on much that I would offer in response to the questions asked. You see, all through Jesus' walk on earth He kept asking, where is your faith; oh ye of little faith; how come you have no faith? and on and on and on. The biggest problem God has is not as much with whether it is His will or not, but whether we can believe He is able and willing to keep His word for us.
The covenant we are under is a better covenant than the OT saints'. It's a covenant of faith, and we are supposed to live by faith. Now like Judy mentioned, there are many areas where God rebukes me for insufficient faith, but I have to be careful that I don't let what seems like God's choosing notto produce certain results gloss over my inability to believe God for something, or in some situation. WHen Jesus walked the earth, He refused no one who came to Him. In fact, the Syrophonecian woman, jumped the fence of God's timetable to get from Jesus what by right was not hers to have, just because she would not take no for an answer. What did Jesus say, woman GREAT IS THY FAITH, be it unto you as thou wilt... Matt. 15:28
My point is that that too often we relegate non results to not being God's will rather that our insufficient application of faith (for what everreason). Whatever God has provided is unreservedly available to usnoquestions asked. AllJesus commands is that we abide inHim and let His words abide in us. In my own life, the biggest hindrance lies right here. A strong faith life requires great spiritual discipline to keep our hearts filled with the word and revelation of Jesus, who is the author of our faith, and remain in a yielded and obedient state before Him. He is the one who said that then we can ask what we will and it shall be done. God wants us to realize that the only thing that gets done on the earth is what man wills or allows. The enemy works easily with both. God requires the former, that's why He says you ask what you will... The way we avoid missing His agenda is in our
abiding/oneness with Him. Then we're in a position to have the mind of Christ.
I think Judy hit the nail on the head:

jt: No attack John, but how about a challenge to the status quo?The reason I've tried to keep this thread alive is to impress upon folks to do just that, Judy and John et al. Challenge the traditional and somewhat casual mindset and have folks look to a greater measure of grace that is available to us. Faith can move mountains. Too often, though, we settle for molehills and even pebbles. God wants us to come up higher and reign as kings on the earth. That means getting your will done! Having what you desire etc. The check valve is our abiding in him and His word abiding in us.
One more scripture here: 2 Cor 1:20 -
'For all the promises of God in Him are yea and amen unto the glory of God by us'.
Once God promises it, He expects us to believe it no questions asked, for we know that He is not double minded. Failures then fall into our garden, not God's.

.
Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

In a message dated 8/24/2004 2:16:55 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:Remember it is Jesus who said ...be it unto you according to Your faith, not His power etc. When Jesus came down from the mount of transfiguration and the father pleaded with Him to heal his son in this manner '...but if thou canst do anything, have compassion on us and, help us. Jesus said unto him, if thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth...' Mk.
9:22-23.

jt: The rest of the story is that the man humbled himself before the Lord following which Jesus cast a deaf and dumb spirit out of his son. The son was having seizures and this spirit would throw him into the fire. Is nobody afflicted with these kinds of spirits today?

John writes: Faith, our faith, is not the only consideration, is it? I mean, you have the parable of the woman who gets what she wants because of her constant and unrelenting requests.

jt: Persistence is evidence of some kind of faith - in my understanding at least ie: If at first you don't succeed, try, try, try, again.

We have the man, the father, in the above text admitting to a lack of faith ("I believe, help me in my unbelief" v 24).

jt: He believed enough to come in the first place, he was just covering all the bases.

We have the fact that Christians are no more healthy, live no longer, are delivered from the mouths of lions and the wicked no more frequently than others.

jt: Why? This ought not to be. What about our Covenant Promises? We are supposed to have a better Covenant with better Promises than Israel -which should include healing and deliverance becausetheir Covenant included bothso long as theywalked in it. Covenant breakers don't get much from God. Actually God told Israel that if they went whoring after
other Gods and brokethe Covenant they had with Him that they would look worse than the other nations, and people
would walk by and hiss at them saying

Re: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature

2004-08-24 Thread michael douglas

Jeff Powers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:




Thank you Michael,
 I didn't mean to question your faith, 
Michael D: No sweat, Jeff. My comment about stirring a brew should have been followed by a smiley. It was not a serious one. I thought it was a very good one which touched on an important principle (which I offered in my response).

I only wanted to know what you would do when the "fat hit the fan". For reasons we may only learn when we stand before the throne God does not always answer our prayers as WE want them answered. I don't want to open this can of worms, but I know from experience God does answer all our prayers as He sees fit.
Michael D: I would have to say yes and no to that one. Often God is only able to answer our prayers as we allow Him. Remember it is Jesus who said ...be it unto you according to Your faith, not His power etc. When Jesus came down from the mount of transfiguration and the father pleaded with Him to heal his son in this manner '...but if thou canst do anything, have compassion on us and, help us. Jesus said unto him, if thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth...' Mk. 9:22-23. 

Not to be harsh, but often we excuse faith failures by relegating them to God's will holding sway against what we desired in prayer. I have found that when we allow God's word to speak, often it convicts of unbelief. 
Now, I do agree that we don't always get what we want, but there are sometines reasons for that. James says we pray amiss. We didn't take time to find out God's will/mind. 
My point is we ought to be very careful about branding things as God's will when we didn't get what we wanted. 
Next writing I might share a hurricane experience with you similar to the question you asked.


And sometimes,due to selfishness, wefail to see that He gave us theresult we wanted. In which case some never see that God answered their prayer in the affirmitive, and others see it only later.
Jeff

- Original Message ----- 
From: michael douglas 
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Friday, August 20, 2004 6:14 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature

Jeff Powers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Hi Michael,
I see that Slade has giving the forcast and coordinates so I will not bother. Weather of this nature is of concern to me as I have several friends and aquaintences in Florida and the surrounding Gulf states. Also, currently my travels are keeping me in the Gulf region. 
 You mentioned your source, CNN,etc., its too bad they don't use the software I recomended! But thenthe lyrics to a song just came to mind, I think it was Glenn Frey who wrote,"People like it when you lose, they like dirty laundry..." the song reallypoints outhow networks like CNNsell airtime by sensationalizing the news.
 Unfortunately, I can imagine those cities facing the same again. I can also see the complacency of those very same people when it comes to taking storms of this nature seriously. It doesn't seem to impact people's minds that they could be the next ones this happens to. And you are right, too many are fatalistic about it. I'm happy to see your confidance in the power of prayer, but I have to present a scenario and see what your action would be:Suppose that a storm like Hurricane Charley is only about 12 hours from hitting your location and all the weather forcasts for the past 3-7 days repeat this imformation. Local authorities prepair for the worst and have issued mandatory evacuations of coastal areas. Now your home ismaybe 1.5 miles from the coast and maybe 6 feet above high tide.And the storm surge is predicted to be13-18 feet high. Keep praying that God will change the path of the
 storm, I'm not being a jerk Michael, this is just what I would be doing. Butthe clock is ticking. Oh, one more thing, in a storm of this intensity your home is about as sturdy as an empty Pepsi can. 10 hours to landfall now and the stormSTILL has not changed direction (but it was just upgradedfrom a cat. 3 storm to a cat. 4 storm). Michael, your family is looking to you to make a decision, they know that you are a man of strong faith, WHAT WILL YOU DO?
Jeff
Michael D: Well, Jeff, you sure do know how to stir a brew... 
In the type of scenario you painted, I will have to do some quick spirit checks to try and sense the witness of the Spirit to me. In that process, I will also be asking the Lord if we are on course for victory. If I am not getting that clearance or witness, thenI will try to find out why. I will ask God to show me what is the problem. 

{Where there are (potential) faith failures, I believe theproblem is with me/us and not with God.
We know that God is committed to His covenant and cannot lie.} 

I have found that God is committed to giving us insight and wisdom where we lack it if we would really ask in faith. Sometimes I also find thatI don't really want to hear what God has to reveal to me. Crucifixion might be involved... I have found that often we have faith failure

Re: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature

2004-08-20 Thread michael douglas

Jeff Powers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Hi Michael,
I see that Slade has giving the forcast and coordinates so I will not bother. Weather of this nature is of concern to me as I have several friends and aquaintences in Florida and the surrounding Gulf states. Also, currently my travels are keeping me in the Gulf region.
You mentioned your source, CNN,etc., its too bad they don't use the software I recomended! But thenthe lyrics to a song just came to mind, I think it was Glenn Frey who wrote,"People like it when you lose, they like dirty laundry..." the song reallypoints outhow networks like CNNsell airtime by sensationalizing the news.
Unfortunately, I can imagine those cities facing the same again. I can also see the complacency of those very same people when it comes to taking storms of this nature seriously. It doesn't seem to impact people's minds that they could be the next ones this happens to. And you are right, too many are fatalistic about it. I'm happy to see your confidance in the power of prayer, but I have to present a scenario and see what your action would be:Suppose that a storm like Hurricane Charley is only about 12 hours from hitting your location and all the weather forcasts for the past 3-7 days repeat this imformation. Local authorities prepair for the worst and have issued mandatory evacuations of coastal areas. Now your home ismaybe 1.5 miles from the coast and maybe 6 feet above high tide.And the storm surge is predicted to be13-18 feet high. Keep praying that God will change the path of the
storm, I'm not being a jerk Michael, this is just what I would be doing. Butthe clock is ticking. Oh, one more thing, in a storm of this intensity your home is about as sturdy as an empty Pepsi can. 10 hours to landfall now and the stormSTILL has not changed direction (but it was just upgradedfrom a cat. 3 storm to a cat. 4 storm). Michael, your family is looking to you to make a decision, they know that you are a man of strong faith, WHAT WILL YOU DO?
Jeff
Michael D: Well, Jeff, you sure do know how to stir a brew...
In the type of scenario you painted, I will have to do some quick spirit checks to try and sense the witness of the Spirit to me. In that process, I will also be asking the Lord if we are on course for victory. If I am not getting that clearance or witness, thenI will try to find out why. I will ask God to show me what is the problem.

{Where there are (potential) faith failures, I believe theproblem is with me/us and not with God.
We know that God is committed to His covenant and cannot lie.}

I have found that God is committed to giving us insight and wisdom where we lack it if we would really ask in faith. Sometimes I also find thatI don't really want to hear what God has to reveal to me. Crucifixion might be involved... I have found that often we have faith failures because we haven't appreciated how willing God is to give us 'liberrally' and not 'upbraid' us when things aren't working for us (though we are sincerely trying). I've often found myself encouraging believers to stand firm on that promise in faith dilemmas. It can avert many defeats, and save us from accusing God wrongfully for not keeping His word, or for it not being His will to keep His word in a situation.
Please bear with me for an example, Jeff. A close brother in Christ was going through some devasting business failures for seemingly no reason (for the scale involved). I constantly encouraged him to do what I am saying here. After a couple of years of pointing him there over and over, the Lord was able to show him the root which was planted some twenty years ago. He was stunned when the Lord told him about it. He could not believe something so seemingly insignificant could have caused so much distress and faith shortfalls in his life.

Anyway, back to the main question: that was quite a digression.Personally,if I can't discern the mind of God as to why the threat is not letting up, and with the impending danger drawing closer, I'll have to get out of there. Thank God he has been very gracious and faithful over the many years that I've had to countenance the various situations that presented themselves.
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RE: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature

2004-08-20 Thread michael douglas

Michael D: Sorry, Izzy. I realized after sending it. I don't want to add more to your annual count than is due...
Izzy, When I started mypleacrying 'Lord' He immediately countered 'angel', stunning me... To me it's like Moses at the Red Sea.

You asked previously about how do I see angels relative to our prayers. I am of the belief thata great portionof our prayers are answered through the activity of angels under the directorship of the Lord. They are the ones who are sent forth to minister for those who shall beheirs ofsalvation. There are some prayers that require the direct execution of God, Himself, (not that angels may not be involved at some level,too) but I believe that in many instances the angels execute on His behalf.


ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:









Michael D, It was my son. (Oh dear, am I old enough for a 14 year old grandsonNot!) J What did the Lord tell you when you only got one word out of your mouth, exactly? Izzy! 
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RE: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature

2004-08-19 Thread michael douglas

Michael D: Thanks for the info, Slade.
I would count it that God answered the prayers of those who took up the challenge to fight Earl off. The fact that it didn't get to do the damage speaks volumes to me. I see the fate of Danielle as significant also.

Actually, I did a Yahoo search for myself and browsed a couple of sites where they gave some details about Earl. There was one Florida site which stated that they were expecting Earl to hit them again. I was thinking ofquoting/pasting it, but decided not to.

Maybe I can use some Bible to show the significance I see in these things. Think on this folks and see how this strikes you.

In Acts, Herod took James and killed him. God, himself, allowed it. Strange thing, though, when Herod took Peter and tried to do the same thing, God did not allow it. Isn't that amazing.
Anyone care to mention the material difference between the two attempts by Herod??? I see the answer here as critical and supremely instructive.
Next, compare the life of h'cane Charley with Earl's and Daniel's. Does anyone agree that we parallel cases, though different courtrooms here, with similar results???
Believe me, I see no happenstance in the outcomes of these events.

By the way Slade, I remember your response to my suggestion to pray. You stated that evacuation orders were already given. I suggested that prayer be said to spare damage in those areas. Would you say that the Lord answered those prayers, or that it was just nature's freakiness in evidence. I have already stated that I saw it as God confirming his word to us about the need to go on the attack and giveHim something to work with.
Your perspective as asomeone who was in the realtime scenario would be of interest to me. Thanx in advance.

Slade Henson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

As of 16 Aug 2004 09:00, It was 320 nautical miles south-southwest of San Juan, 510 nautical miles west of Barbados, and 945 nautical miles east of Puerto Cabezas. (Coordinates: -67.2 Long, 13.2 Lat.)

Earl was currently traveling WNW at 21 MPH with a wind speed of 46 mph and an internal pressure of 1,009. Earl has reduced itself so much that most forecasters have stopped plotting its course.

Is that information helpful?

-- slade

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RE: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature

2004-08-19 Thread michael douglas

Michael D: John, Like Izzy, I do not pray to angels. I loose them to do God's/my bidding by faith and with the authority God gave us through Christ. Scriptural basis for doing this: Jesus gave us the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Angels are a part of the kingdom of heaven. I can call upon them to act upon the earth I can also call upon God to act upon the earth. Why, I have the keys (access to all of heavens resources). Think of this, the very things that God uses to operate heaven, He gave us to bring heaven to earth,: that's divine authority.
Jesus said to Nathaniel in Jn 1:51.
...Verily, verily, I say unto you, hereafter shall you see heaven open,and theangels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.
Ever wondered how did the heaven open for the angels to ascend and descend? Could it be that the Jesus usedthe keys of the kingdom to open the way for those angels??? The same keys He gave to us? Personally, I use them, and as I shared a few days ago, even the Lord God Himself, directed me to use them in a situation where I felt that allI could do was plead with God for His intervention. I only got one word out before being cut off by the Lord. Very interesting indeed.
I just hope that believers who are unaware will startseeing these things and exercise their faith to benefit fromthem. It's glorious to see the results. Of course, it takes stepping out in faith.
I find the account of Izzy's where her grandson (I believe) saw those angels surrounding the house. How encouraging. It strenghtens one's faith. Thanx for sharing that Izzy.
ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

I have used angels as well when I have lost stuff and got it back. In fact, I have been using angels How do you establish this idea from scripture?Is there scripture that gives us direction or example to pray to angels? John

Izzy says: I dont pray to angels. However, when we pray we loose the Lords angels to do His bidding. I also tell demons where to go now and then: not in my own authority, but in His Name. Do you believe in Gods angels? What do you believe about them? Do you believe you have guardian angels? Have you read the scriptures pertaining to the work angels do? Do you believe in demons?
Matthew 8:
5And (7) when Jesus entered Capernaum, a centurion came to Him, imploring Him, 6and saying, "Lord, my servant is lying (8) paralyzed at home, fearfully tormented." 7Jesus said to him, "I will come and heal him." 8But the centurion said, "Lord, I am not worthy for You to come under my roof, but just say the word, and my servant will be healed.
9"For I also am a man under (9) authority, with soldiers under me; and I say to this one, 'Go!' and he goes, and to another, 'Come!' and he comes, and to my slave, 'Do this!' and he does it." 10Now when Jesus heard this, He marveled and said to those who were following, "Truly I say to you, I have not found such great faith with anyone in Israel. 11"I say to you that many (10) will come from east and west, and [1] recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven; 12but (11) the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into (12) the outer darkness; in
that place (13) there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 13And Jesus said to the centurion, "Go; it shall be done for you (14) as you have believed." And the servant was healed that very moment.
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Re: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature

2004-08-18 Thread michael douglas

Michael D: Hello Jeff, I got my news on hurricane Earl from CNN and a couple other cable news outlets which I was following often since Charley's advent.CNN repeatedly warned that it was forcast to follow Charley's path. I am glad that by Sunday it was way past Trinidad, but it did hit one corner of our sister isle, Tobago, very briefly.
The fact that it did not follow the same path as Charley is a big praise report to me. Again, God has been faithful to respond to the faith of His saints. Can you imagine those cities facing the same thing again.
Personally, I don't know how folks can be so casual and fatalistic about this. The fact that God is willing to work through His people to spare them and others much distress should excite folks, or at least peak their curiosity. Again, I have seen God do this for 16 yrs, well actually 19 yrs.
I was speaking death to Earl, but I have not heard much about it recently. Can you provide an update as to where it went, and its current status?
DId anyone on the list take up the vigil to forbid Earl from coming to the US? I would be interested to know.
Jeff Powers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

My comments in red.

Michael Douglas wrote:
Just on a note of praise, and reemphasis: tropical storm Earl was slated for Trinidad and Tobago this weekend. Of course, seeing what happened with Florida had me quite concerned. I inevitably came against it binding it and speaking death to it (I still keep trying that) Thank God that we were spared but for 15 minutes of high winds in one corner of Tobago, which did root up some trees, but nothing major. My family in the island of Barbados were also spared. I have to thank God for that. I am trusting God to intervene even further. You folks should forbid it from coming to your shores, and speak death to it as well (it was forecast to follow the exact path of Charley.
Really?I Have not seen any evidence of that! Where are you getting your information from? I have been following Earl from it's start.Earl was 2326 nautical miles past Trinidad and has already shown clearly that it was on a different course than Charlie. I saw that Sunday evening.I'm glad that youdidn't have a catastrophe there in Trinidad, but, the forcasts and computer modelshave not shown Earl taking the same course. David are you sure that you didn't hear a radio personality voicing a personal thought? I know that I heard personal thoughts on a radio station that Earl might take the same track. However, I use "Tracking the eye.net"from http://HurricaneSoftware.com to keep on top of these things. I recomend it to everyone interested in these storms.
Jeff

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Re: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature

2004-08-16 Thread michael douglas

Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

In a message dated 8/16/2004 5:13:16 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:Good Morning John: I sat under this teaching for many years. The Authority of the Believer is taught in "faith" circles -
Michael D: That is true, Judy. I like to emphasize that it is taught in theBible, as you mention below. Jesus emphasized it to His disciples, because it is the reality that god wants His children to walk in and manifest in the earth.
rationale being that when Adam chose to go along with his wife rather than obey God he passed the authority/dominion given him in Genesis 1:26 to the adversary by default which then made satan the "god or prince of this world" and this fact Jesus Himself acknowledges in John 12:31 when he says "Now is the judgment of this world; now shall the prince of this world be cast out" and in John 14:30 "Hereafter I will not talk much with you, for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me". So the prince of this world was defeated at Calvary because he had no ground (in Jesus) for doing what he did to Him - he had nothing in Him. Where the premise fails however is in the area of our obedience. He (the prince of this world) has a whole lot in some of us. Jesus had authority to speak peace over nature. The faith teachers say that we also have authority (in His name) to do the same. However, we have problems that he didn't have in that the majority of those who profess to serve Christ have little or no spiritual discernment and the adversary has quite a lot of ground in some of us through unrepented
tradition, generational sin etc. so that our hearts are not pure and neither are our motives. I believe that Jesus paid the price for us to have this kind of authority, it is part of the Covenant we have with God through Him and the real thing should be evident in the lives of overcomers (those conformed to His image).
Above you're suggesting that the premise fails, with which I could not agree. The premise is very sound indeed i.e. Jesus restores God's authority to man in the earth.
It was He who said that what we bind/forbid on earth is forbidden in heaven, and what weloose/allow on earth is allowed in heaven. He understood our frame that we are dust when He said it and made provision for us in the covenant for forgiveness and restoration and strenghtening should we fall short ...Come boldly before the throne of grace...
James said itsomething like this, Elijah was a man of like passions as we, yet he prayed and it did not rain ...Am I saying that we don't need to be conformed to Christ? not at all. In fact we need to be abiding in Christ, as a rule, for His power and authority to be constantlyavailable to us. If we don't abide in the vine, wedon't have power to do anything. But once we are abiding (not necessarily fuly mature in Christ) then levels of power and authority are available according to our faith. Jesus said:
If you abide in me and my words abide in you, you shall ask what youwill and itshall be done. Pat Robertson claimed to have prayed hurricane Gloria away from CBN's sattelite dish in Virginia Beach 15 years ago in 1989 but Gloria went on to destroy a large part of upper State New York - how can a follower of Christ rejoice in that? I have the same problem as Terry with it.
I see a bit of a paradox here, I think. If you see it in the Word, why shy away from it because someone might misuse it, or evidence ignorance in their attempts to use it? God gave it to us for a big blessing, not for us only. Can you imagine if Christians everywhere applied this grace given by Christ, how the world would stand up and take notice? People would get saved like in the records of Acts when they see evidence of the doctrine of Christ and it's practical efficacy.
To me the thing we should do is to ask God to give us the grace to perfect our exercise of His authority.
Consider a place like India where monsoons ravage them year-in year-out. Can you imagine the impact the gospel can have in that deception dominated land if saints were able to demonstrate the divine lordship of Christ to resolve what their 'holy men' and artifacts could not for centuries? Jesus did not give us the authority just for personal security, but He said ...all power (exousia) has been given unto me in heaven and in earth, GO THEREFORE and make disciples of ALL NATIONS... He sent us on the premise of His all encompassing authority (including that over weather conditions). How many people even relate to His statement of His authority when they voice this oft-quoted passage? In Mark's gospel, it ends by relating that ...the went everywhere preaching the Lord working with them, confirming the word with signs following...
What a sign to heathen nations like India, or even Bible-rich America when all the naysaying sceptics see the undeniable power of God attending the message of repentance and salvation... They might just take note that...these men/women were with

RE: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature

2004-08-16 Thread michael douglas

Michael D: I have used angels as well when I have lost stuff and got it back. In fact, I have been using angels since 1983it's very practical and powerful, and the saints of God need to seek to incorporate all of the provisions of the covenant into our walk as God gives us insight. Of course, it all works by faith.
Let me share a neat one with you:
A few years ago I was keeping an income tas return cheque for my sister-in-law who had migrated with my brothere to Canada. It got misplaced and for months I could not find it. I was very concerned, but refrained from mentioning it to her. Eventually my brother (her husband) came for a visit, and I really needed to get it to him so he could handle it for her. I was in some trepidation as his departure time drew near. As God would have it, I was sharing with the home fellowship around that time on the believers' ability to use angels ans some of the experiences I had doing so. One night, I was walking in the house and I went to plead with God to let me find it somehow... All I got out was "Lord..." immediately He said one word back to me very clear in my spirit "angel...".
I was very taken aback. Here Iam going to pray to God and He is telling me not Him but use my angel. It's like Moses at the Red sea... Don't call me, what do you have in your hand??? It's funny, butoften we can pray to God, but God is waiting for us to use the authority He has already given us. That's a good word for me tonight (I am preaching to myself...)
Anyway, I commanded my angel to find that cheque for me (it took faith not having been able to find it for so long). The rest is history. Either the same night, or the next, I almost literelly stumbnled accros a stack of mail. I realized my angel was drawing it to my attention. When I checked, under a stack of roughly scattered letters I saw this thing staring at me. You could imagine my elation, and frustration (I looked there many times before...). God does confirm His word with signs following.ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Michael, thanks so much. I suspect you could teach us a lot! What other goodies do you have in your bag? J I have learned that whenever I lose something I can dispatch angels in the Name of the Lord and, sooner or later, it turns up. Usually right where I have already looked several times. It is so cool! Izzy

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Re: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature

2004-08-15 Thread michael douglas

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

In a message dated 8/13/2004 3:23:03 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I agree with this conclusion. I do not think that it excludes God's interdiction or His cooperative involvement affecting the course of nature. But, I do not believe that He so involves Himself as a rule of action. He is the one who created nature, weather, and the laws of function that govern both venues.
Michael D: Yes, God created the universe etc, but one must remember that an alien invaded the 'universe' and has brought chaos and disorder into the mix. This alien is our enemy, and we would do well to recognize when he is operating or trying to operateand resist him. Paul established that precedent when he mentioned to the Corinthians that he and they weren't ignorant of his devices, and therefore their actions should be guided by that fact.
Remember Jesus gave us power over ALL the power of the enemy. And James said to resist him and he will flee from you.
Now, I'm not sure if folks are suggesting that we allow ourselves to be battered, so that others don't get battered, but if so, I wouldn't see the sense in that. The idea is to pray for others in their plight. Folks can rest assured that if it were not God's will, any attempts to get protection from storms would be futile. So as far as wanting God's will to be done, that makes it very clear where our relating to that is.
The idea is that we should not be fatalistic regarding these serious issues. Hosea said that God's people are destroyed for lack of knowledge, and I realize that this applies to many believers (I say this humbly...). Most folks don't believe that they have that kind of access to God for this kind of intervention. My sharing these things is out of concern for the potential suffering that folks would experience, while knowing there is a way out. I do hope that folks will take up the challenge to press in to this area, and access the faith to where they might be able to kill the storms before they do damage at all.
While I am really sad for the damage that has occurred, I see that God has responded to our faith and spared the very areas we were targeting in prayer. I see this as God confirming His word to us with signs following, showing us all that this is something we all need to awake to and to pass on to the others that we are supposed to love as ourselves so that they too can be spared the ravages of enemy-manipulated nature.
There is some explanation for the fallout that has occurred due to the storm diverting away from Tampa et al, but I can't do that at the moment.
Anyway, it is good to see that Slade co. and Terry are alright. I do hope David and his family are as well. Thank Godfor His mercy.
Why do we have hard times? Why do we get sick and die. Why are loved ones so affected? Why is old age so pervasive as it seemingly seeks our demise? To get us ready to let go -- to move on tp the spiritual destinies God has instore for us. To complete what was not finished with the initial creation of man. John
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RE: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature

2004-08-13 Thread michael douglas

Michael D: Sorry I could not get back into the discussion before now, folks.

To answer your question Izzy, I live in the English-speaking nation of Trinidad and Tobago which is a twin island state in the Caribbean 7 miles north of Venezuela.

To try and address Terry's question: I see storms as from the devil. Additionally, I never take adverse weather conditions for granted. I always seek to exercise Christ's authority over them. I seek never to allow the enemy to have the initiative, because his aim is always to effect the results of 'the thief' as Jesus described in Jn. 10.

What about the adversity bypassing me and afflicting someone else? That was once a big dilemma for me. The first storm I was involved in dealing with in my country veered away from us and proceeded to do untold damage in Jamaica and other countries (that was Gilbert). Of course, that disturbed me alot. The following year, another one, Hugo, was again on course for us, but I was very confident that through faith it was not going to hit us: so much so that I told students of a group I was teaching that I would be showing up for class the next day (the due date ofthe landfall). Faithfully God spared us, but again many others were not benefigiaries. I learned something very important then: although I tried to take authority over the storm proceeding to any country, and to kill it out in the sea by faith (my faith and understanding of those things was not as much then as it is now) I could not spare other lands. I realised that that was left to the believers
in those lands to defend their own security. I could impact my backyard, so to speak, but not necessarily someone else's.
So the key is for those folks to be able to wake up to their authority in Christ, and to understand that these so- called 'acts of God' are not fated occurences, but phenomena that they can control.
Now, in all things, ultimately one must strive to discern the mind of God as to when he does not want to protect in a situation.
I am going to make what will seem like an outrageous statement, here, but it represents a challenge to true believers to ascend to the place of authority that God offers us (it will leave many questions, I know).
I have exercised control over the weather in my country for years (since 1988 when the Lord began to teach me these things). It deals mainly with rain, and the lack thereof, down here. When I want rain I send forth angels to bring it: I did this last week, since we had a string of very hot weeks, and I thought, we need to build up the water levels in our reservoirs. Within a few days, it started, thank God.
Now this is a serious paradigm to operate in, since foul-ups can lead to serious backlash from you-know-whom... I have experienced too many of those, but living in a low-lying area like I do, it is a necessary 'science' for me. There is so much I can share from my experiences over these years,but I am just trying to lay a foundation to allow interested folks to know that they have authority over what takes place in their garden (like Adam did), and can forbid the enemy from executing (like Adam did not), but it involves God granting us His wisdom and understanding as well, like in any other area of life. The key is to start. This could avert winter freezes that destroy crops etc. etc. God wants us to dominate our environment through Him, even in our business situations. It's all encompasing. Just a scripture that reflects this:
Romans 5 said that through the grace of Christ we reign (no pun intended) in Christ in this life. The great thing is that the only time one reigns is when his/her will is being done. This is something we have to strive for through faith. When this becomes more evident in our lives (and that applies to me as well) Christ will draw all men unto Himself: I see this as where He does not necessarily need storms to save folsk, although He might choose to or not have what we are discussing here at His disposal based on where the saints are at re understanding this.
Well, I won't be surprised if you all have alot to say about al of this, so I'm bracing myself

ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Michael, would you mind telling us where you currently live? How would you answer Terrys questions about prayer and storms? Izzy

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[TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature

2004-08-12 Thread michael douglas

Michael D:
I read with serious concern this evening the news of threats to Tampa and other Florida cities posed by the approaching storm. These are truly serious situations. The good thing is that the Lord Jesus has equipped the Church with the necessary spiritual tools to avert these and other serious threats of nature.
I encourage everyone, particularly those from the Tampa/St. Pete and surroundingareas to stand against these storms in faith and rebuke them, just like Jesus did.
Some may wonder how I can say this. Well, I happened to be in Tampa during two hurricane threats of the past. The first being in 1985 (don't recall which one now) much prayer went up to God and the then storm could not come inland. Winds and some rain were experienced, but nothing major, as the forecast had warned about.
The second was August 1992, when Andrew was slated to bring it's predicted devastation through. I remember taking authority over the storm and having the witness of the Spirit that it wasn't going to hit the area. I am sure that many saints all had their faith ti God as well for the averting of the danger. Well,Tampa never got a wiff of andrew, but unfortunately, Other parts of Miami were devastated.
I have learned many lessons about attacks of nature over many years, including earthquakes. The bottom line is that if we can exercise the authority that Christ delegated to His followers we will be spared these things.
Just a reminder to us that Jesus said that whatever we bind or loose (forbid or allow) on earth will be so bound/loosed in heaven. We therefore must press in and believe that when we speak to the mountain (hurricane) that threatens our safety God will act on our behalf, and that we can have what we say.
America is attacked by many natural disasters, and often I've wanted to share these thoughts on TT, but have refrained until now. In my country of Trinidad and Tobago, I do this very often, indeed. God really is faithful in this.

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RE: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature

2004-08-12 Thread michael douglas

Michael D: Sorry I didn't bring this up earlier. I know however that there are more than the proverbial10 righteous folks in Tampa. Even if evacuation is mandated, the battle for averting landfall can still continue. It can spare the place much disaster. ...The righteous cry and the Lord hears and delivers them from their destruction... The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much... a la Elijah.Slade Henson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


By the way...I am a Tampa resident in zone A right now and under mandatory evacuation. "The weather is here,I wish you were beautiful." :)

We're fine, you about you David???

--slade


-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Slade HensonSent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 6:14 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature
This is all assuming that there are at least 10 righteous men in Tampa, FL. My wife thinks they're all on I-4 heading towards Orlando.


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Re: [TruthTalk] When man's law is contrary to God's law

2004-06-01 Thread michael douglas

David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Lance wrote: If you beat a child with a rod he will not  die (in most cases) but you will likely be  'charged'. (Penal code)I have been charged for preaching Christ in public, but never forspanking my child with a rod. Has this been a big problem in Canada?Have you known people arrested for this?If I remember right, someone on this list was arrested for some familylaw violation like this. Zoning laws in many U.S. cities make it illegal to have Bible Studiesand prayer meetings in the home, but they are rarely enforced.Michael D: Really David? I never knew that. What are zoning laws in the U.S. about? Can you elaborate a little?
Incidentally, I met a Canadian woman some years ago who related an account of a guy who spanked his son for possession of a weapon and the son was taken away from him. Ironically, after a couple years and failure to control the son, they called the father for help with him, which he bluntly refused. Interesting state solution I would say...
		  
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Re: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ

2004-05-27 Thread michael douglas

Michael D: Hansen, I think I inadvertently deleted your last response to me. Can you please resend.Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
David Miller wrote:
John S. wrote:

Soo, you are saying that we must be intellectually
correct on the teaching of hell in order to be saved?

No. Salvation is not based upon intellect and understanding. This is
why I was concerned about your perspective about faith being
intellectual. As we grow in Christ, our understanding increases. Just
as good works are a product of faith, so also is proper understanding a
result of faith in Christ.

I'm saying that we cannot reject what Jesus taught about anything. If
we believe in Jesus, we will conform our lives to him in all things, in
how we live, how we think, and how we understand all things. If anyone
says that he does not believe in hell, and then he is shown how Jesus
did believe in hell and taught it to be a place where the wicked are
tormented, then that person would need to conform his ideas of hell to
what Jesus taught. Otherwise, he really does not believe in Jesus.
DAVEH: Hmwith all the conflicting beliefs as to what Jesus taught, it would seem like you are suggesting a lot of folks who think they are believers, really aren't believers and will end up being tossed into the lake of fire for having (some) misconceptions about what Jesus taught. Is that correct, DavidM?
"Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ,
hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both
the Father and the Son." (2 John 1:9 KJV)

Peace be with you.
David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.
--
~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~
If you wish to receive
things I find interesting,
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JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS,
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Re: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ

2004-05-25 Thread michael douglas

Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
michael douglas wrote:

David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

John wrote: I don't understand this observation. Doesn't the reality of hell (whatever that is) exist apart from our consideration? Why would God punish us for being wrong in our understanding of eternal judgment. And if we have to think correctly on this subject,would not correct thinking be required about all of biblical doctrine? David M wrote: Faith is based upon knowledge. We cannot just make-up whatever kind of Jesus we think would be nice and then believe in that made-up Jesus. (I assume that you are asserting this regardless of who comes up with the concept of Jesus one is believing in...)When we believe in Jesus, we abide in his doctrine and in his message.If Jesus taught that there is eternal judgment of the sinner, and we say, "I don't believe that," then we really don't believe in
Jesus. We can't believe in Jesus and not believe in the teaching of Jesus.
Michael D: David, It would be interesting toseeDave H's response to these pronouncements.
DAVEH: I haven't been following this thread too close, so I may not fully understand what comments you are expecting of me, Michael.
Michael D: My main reason for anticipating your response is in the light of David not categorically alleging that your concept of Jesus prevents you from achieving eternal life (as far as I remember in past discussions) whereas others affirmed just that. The statements in view from him here,however,seem to have serious implications for LDS hopes for any salvation if their status remains quo (based on his stated position).
However, it does seem to me that there is such a diversity in opinions as to what various Christians believe about the doctrines of Christ, let alone about the nature of Jesus and God.well, I'm not sure many Christians actually agree on all points.
Clearly, we don't.
So..if Christians think they can be saved by their belief in Jesus, then they must surely believe that congruence of belief (and understanding and keeping his commandments) is not necessary for salvation.
Congruence is not necessary for salvation (as you would have read on TT before).

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RE: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ

2004-05-24 Thread michael douglas

David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

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Re: [TruthTalk] Adams FALL UPWARD

2004-02-12 Thread michael douglas

Michael D: Sorry for the delay in answering this Blainer. I only have time to shoot off a couple quick questions.Blaine Borrowman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Blaine: I will give this another shot, hopefully some light will emerge.

First, Mormonism teaches there is no such thing as an angel that was not one of God's spirit children to begin with.
All angels were one of God's 'spirit children', but not all of God's spirit children are angels, do I get that right?

.
Angels as Spirits
...They may have lived on earth previous to their appearance. Or, they may yet live on the earth--either way, they are not yet resurrected beings (Jesus was the firstfruits of the resurrection). Jehovah, who appeared to Moses, was not an angel but a God??? but was in spirit form. He would later take on flesh and be known as Jesus Christ, the Messiah, the Son of God. When he appears again, however, he will appear in the flesh, as a resurrected being, a personage with a body of flesh and bone, but not blood. He will be spiritual, not carnal, by nature. He will be a purified, sanctified, glorified personage, with the glory of the sun as being typical.

Will he be god, angel or man at this point ???

Such is also the potential of those who seek to become like him, through his grace and his mediation. (See below, angels as resurrected beings.)
Angels as resurrected Beings
JS taught that angels can also be persons who have lived on the earth in the flesh, and have since been resurrected. These cannot have been resurrected before the resurrection of Jesus Christ, the first fruits of the resurrection, however. Such an angel (Moroni) JS saw when given the gold plates to translate, and when given the Priesthood (John the Baptist, and Peter and James)--also when given PH keys to work for the dead, the gathering of Israel, and the keys to the dispensation of Abraham, by such angels as Elijah, Moses, and Elias. These angels appear in glorified form, surrounded by light. They are sanctified and purified, as they speak by the power of the Holy Ghost, and act underGod's command and are therefore subordinate to him. But their powers are similar to those of God, who gives them his powers, since they are not just his servants, but are his proven friends.
Abraham was one such friend.(Isaiah 41:8); so was Moses(Exodus 33:11). So are all those who keep His commandments (John 15:13-14 "Greater love hath no man than this, that he lay down his life for his friends; Ye are my friends, if you do whatsoever I command you").
Also, Blainer, are these 'angels' gods as well? if not when do they become such?
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Re: [TruthTalk] New Moderator for TruthTalk

2004-02-11 Thread michael douglas

Michael D: Congrats perry. You're the new 'master' of the cauldron. I do wish you much grace, since all of the Locke in the world wouldn't be enough for you to face this heatDavid Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
February 11, 2004Dear TruthTalk members,I have asked Perry to take over as moderator of this list and he hasaccepted the responsibility. Therefore, if you have any concerns abouthow discussions are progressing, please write to him privately about itand ask him to take care of it. Perry's email address is[EMAIL PROTECTED].I will continue on the list and post from time to time, but I may belurking more than usual for most of the rest of this year. Thank youPerry for taking this responsibility upon yourself. I appreciate yourwillingness to give back to our little e-community here and serving usin this way.Peace be with you.David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.--"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to
 answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed."
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Re: [TruthTalk] Adams FALL UPWARD

2004-02-07 Thread michael douglas

Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

michael douglas wrote:
Blainer:. But he was denied the privilege of tabernacling in the flesh,
because he made war in heaven, and actually overcame one-third of the
hosts of heaven. The other two-thirds are you and I
(here Blainer is saying that he is an angel/former angel) and all
others who were allowed to take on mortal bodies.17/10/2002 - Michael D to Dave H: Blainer represents this as though the other two thirds have already taken on flesh. DAVEH: He didn't quite say that, but the effect is the same. (IOW.some of those two thirds may yet to be born.)
Michael D: I understand that that is what he is saying now. My point is that in our previous discussions, he wassaying something very different. His statements to Perry stopped me in my tracks, so I had to go back and compare them with what he said back then.Clearlythey are contradictions and probably adjusted views. That's my concern here. Of course, nothing is wrong with adjusted views or erring, but to recognise them as such would be important. LikeDavid M. I will await an explanation on this one (although he takes it in a specific direction).Does this meanthat the only angels now are the ones who have died?
DAVEH: Not necessarily. As I pointed out above, there are likely some (perhaps a lot) who have yet to come into mortality. In fact, if you look below you can see Blaine specifically said that all angels who minister to the peoples of this earth are either former or future inhabitants of this earth.6/02/2004 - Michael D: Hey Blainer, your statement above contradicts the one
immediately below, and the bold, italicized red text further on.
Can you explain this? Perry, I am sure you would want to address this as well
BT
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Re: [TruthTalk] Adams FALL UPWARD

2004-02-07 Thread michael douglas

Michael D: Dave H, incidentally, Blaine made his comments relative to posts that you, he and I were releasing to TT. He offered a summary of the LDS position relative to my questions, and your and his previous answers, as I recall. As you would have realized, I included the date of the post the quotes were taken from, but did not include everything for brevity.

I really would like Blaine to respond, though. Blaine?
Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
DAVEH: My latest comments are in PINK...
michael douglas wrote:

Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

His statements to Perry stopped me in my tracks, so I had to go back and compare them with what he said back then. Clearly they are contradictions and probably adjusted views.
DAVEH: If you think Blaine is making contradictory statements, then why did you ask me about it? They didn't seem contradictory to me, hearing only half the conversation. Seems to me you should be asking Blaine instead of me, Michael
Michael D: Actually, I thought that is what I did. I think you actually responded to the question I asked in Oct, 2002. I really was only quoting it, not asking it now. I don't mind you making an input now, though.
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Re: [TruthTalk] Adams FALL UPWARD

2004-02-06 Thread michael douglas





From: 




[EMAIL PROTECTED]







 


Date: 
Thu, 17 Oct 2002 18:48:49 -0600 Blainer:. But he was denied the privilege of tabernacling in the flesh,becausehe made war in heaven, and actually overcame one-third of the hostsofheaven. The other two-thirds are you and I (here Blainer is saying that he is an angel/former angel) and all others who wereallowed to take on mortal bodies. 17/10/2002 - Michael D to Dave H: Blainer represents this as though the other two thirds have already taken on flesh. Does this mean that the only angels now are the ones who have died?
 6/02/2004 - Michael D: Hey Blainer, your statement above contradicts the one immediately below, and the bold, italicized red text further on. Can you explain this? Perry, I am sure you would want to address this as well17/10/2002 - Blainer) The Big Picture seems to be what is missing here. Maybe this
will help. We have learned from JS--whom we believe to have had many
experiences with angels--that all angels who minister to the peoples of
this earth are either former or future inhabitants of this earth, with
the one exception of evil spirits...
From post 17/10/2002 - Blainer: But he was denied the privilege of tabernacling in the flesh, becausehe made war in heaven, and actually overcame one-third of the hostsofheaven. The other two-thirds are you and I (here Blainer is saying that he is an angel/former angel) and all others who wereallowed to take on mortal bodies. 

17/10/2002 - Michael D to Dave H: Blainer represents this as though the other two thirds have already taken on flesh. Does this mean that the only angels now are the ones who have died? 

- Original Message - 


From: "Charles Perry Locke" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2004 4:56 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adams FALL UPWARD

 Blaine, maybe you can help me understand this. **Blaine:I will try, but will rely on Mormon doctrine to do so--OK?  So, in the pre-life, he was Michael the archangel, but in life, he became  Adam. This implies that you were once an angel, too, doesn't it? But, the  scripture says there is no salvation for angels. How does that work? Are younot saved?

Blaine: JS defines an angel as being a messenger from God, and can either be a spirit, or a resurrected being. I doubt if I was ever an angel but I am sure I was a spiritpersonage in premortal life. (although, my wife sometimes tells me I am an angel, as did my mother when I was good lol) I believe all of us were such.Would you mind giving me ch. and verse where it saysthere is no salvation for angels? I may be in for it if it is true. LOL  In life, then, Adam was a man, but in the book of Daniel he is Michael the  Archangel again. How does that work? I though he would become a god!!! Can  he switch between Michael and Adam at will?

Blaine: In the Book of Daniel, Michael was the same spirit that left Adam's body when he died. He had resumed his former position of honor and glory in God's spiritual realm/kingdom, and apparently also his former identity.
  But, in the after-life, Adam is still a man, right? 
No, he resumed his life as a spirit. Adam/Michael had not yet been resurrected. Jesus Christ was the first fruits of the resurrection. Did he become a god? No, except for Jehovah/Jesus Christ, one does not become a god until after the resurrection. Even then it is iffy! Does he become Michael the Archangel, appear to Daniel, then revert back to  a man, then become a God? Michaelwas an angelinspirit form when he appeared to Daniel.Again, Jesus was the firstfruits of the resurrection.  Michael may well be a god now, since he could be among those who came forth from their graves after the resurrection of Jesus Christ. I have no reason to doubt that he does sit on a throne in God's kingdom, as does Abraham, Mosesand others.
 
 Is there anyone else we know of that Michael becomes during this time? Does  this arrangement seem at all puzzling or odd to you?

Blaine: Actually no. Not the way I have explained it.
You just have to remember that no spirit took a tangible body until after Jesus Christ came forth as the firstfruits of the resurrection. 
In fact, the Jehovah of the OT was basically a spirit--He was the great I AM, whom Jesus identified as himself (John 8: 58 ". . . before Abraham was, I AM.) 
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RE: [TruthTalk] Extra-Biblical Revelation

2004-01-07 Thread michael douglas

The whole matter was a great blessing, andmany good men lived in that house, some men being discipled in the ways of the Lord, and other men who tutored others in the ways of the Lord.In fact, one of those men is a member of this list today (Michael Douglas). :-) 

Oh David, David, why did you do this? You jumped the gun on me!!! Before I got to the bottom of the post I had already decided to indicate that I lived there at one time. You sure beat me to it...Peace be with you.David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.  
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Re: [TruthTalk] False teachers.

2004-01-02 Thread michael douglas

Michael D: Blainer, I am curious... What authoratative LDS scripture do you base this explanation re Jesus et al on. It is particularly interesting because not all hold the same position (as you mentioned). Do they have an LDS scriptural backing for their divergent view?[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Blaine: some thoughts on whether Jesus and Satan were brothers: (I amnot sure all Mormons believe as I do, but I think most do)1) No,Satan is not Jesus's brother, not in the sense that Mormons call one another "brother" as a matter of showing they love andsympathize with one another, but2) I would say Yes, they are brothers in the sense that I believe we wereall literal children of God in the pre-existence, 
and Satan was one of us,
Michael D: Do you care to explain what you mean by this, Blainer? 
as was Jesus.   
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RE: [TruthTalk] just the BIBLE Dave

2003-12-22 Thread michael douglas

Michael D: Dave H, I did not notice a response to David's and my request for your explanation re the pprophecy of J. Smith below and it's non-fulfilment. I am truly eager to hear your reply, as David stated that he is, and I am sure alot of other TTers are as well. Would you oblige?michael douglas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Michael D: Dave H, You asked me earlier when I said J Smith was proven to be a false prophet in the past on TT, what was the occasion of the false prophecy. Well, it has been posted on TT (Thanx David) for some time now.

My question is do you see this prophecy and its non-fulfilment as evidence that Joseph Smith uttered a false prophecy? I would appreciate a direct answer if possible (yes or no). If 'no', what is your reason?
Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

This prophecy was given July 12, 1843. At this time, Emma had found out about the other women and did not agree with the polygamy. She calledit what it was... adultery. Clearly Joseph Smith was bearing downpressure upon her with this prophecy. Well, Joe was killed less than ayear later, on June 27, 1844. Therefore, this prophecy was false. Emma never went with the LDS group that continued to embrace polygamy. She went with the Reorganized Church which their son led, Joe Smith III.Joe never received the houses and lands and wives IN THIS WORLD that hehad prophesied for himself.

Another example of FALSE PROPHECY in this DC 132 is Verse 54
"And I command mine handmaid, Emma Smith, to abide and cleave unto my servant Joseph, and to none else. But if she will not abide this commandment she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord; for I am the Lord thy God, and will destroy her if she abide not in my law."
Since Emma did not recieve, fought against the "PRICIPLE" and denied that Joseph ever Practiced it, according to vs 64 a woman is to BELIEVE and ADMINISTER unto her husband. verse 65 she is to recieve it. Emma lived to a ripe old age. Joe died a young man!
David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Kevin wrote: If the official Church Doctrine is ANTI Polygamy. Then why do they still have DC 132 ?They believe in progressive revelation that actually changes what waspracticed before. So they would say that just as the law was changed toa covenant as grace, so this has changed. Just as sabbath observancewas changed, so has this changed. They might also point out thatpolygamy was practiced before Christ, then abolished for awhile, thencame back again when circumstances warranted it, then abolished again.The DC 132 passage is the one that has the false prophecy of JosephSmith that was brought up before. I don't think anyone quoted it, so Iwill take time to do it again. I had brought this up some time back whenthis subject came up.DC 132:55"But if she [Emma, Joe's wife] will not abide this
commandment, thenshall my servant Joseph do all things for her, even as he hath said; andI will bless him and multiply him and give unto him an hundredfold INTHIS WORLD, of fathers, and mothers, brothers and sisters, HOUSES ANDLANDS, WIVES and children, and crowns of eternal lives in the eternalworlds."This prophecy was given July 12, 1843. At this time, Emma had found outabout the other women and did not agree with the polygamy. She calledit what it was... adultery. Clearly Joseph Smith was bearing downpressure upon her with this prophecy. Well, Joe was killed less than ayear later, on June 27, 1844. Therefore, this prophecy was false. Emmanever went with the LDS group that continued to embrace polygamy. Shewent with the Reorganized Church which their son led, Joe Smith III.Joe never received the houses and lands and wives IN THIS WORLD that hehad prophesied for himself.Peace be with you.David Miller, Beverly
Hills, Florida.

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RE: [TruthTalk] just the BIBLE Dave

2003-12-18 Thread michael douglas

Re: [TruthTalk] The Value of Sin?

2003-12-12 Thread michael douglas

jt: I understand what you are saying but not the point of all of it. Why accuse God? This is just the way it is and if there is more to it that we should know he will reveal this also - in his time. But then I've been doing a little research, and have read that your Church believes that there was some kind of a council of gods in heaven and that Lucifer and Jesus (who are supposedly spirit brothers) both presented their plans. Lucifer's plan was to force men to worship god
Michael D: No wonder LDS can't stand public evangelism...
and Jesus' plan was to show them how to worship god. Lucifer's plan was rejected, and Jesus' plan was accepted. (Pearl of Great Price, Book of Moses 4:103) Is the above what you believe DaveH? DAVEH: Yes.
Michael D: Dave H, What a thing!!! LDS maintains that this 'council of the gods' has resulted in the present scenario that allows man to be tested and subsequently be able to attain godhood. This leads me to a couple serious questions. According to LDS:
i) Which council led to the scenario whereGod the Father had to come through His 'testing' as a man before He could 'become' omnipotent God.
ii) Which 'gods' were involved in that council?
iii) What councils determined the multitude of different scenarios where all of the preceding generations of gods went through their testing and qualified to be 'omnipotent gods'
iv) Who were on those councils?
jt: This is interesting. Do you think that Lucifer's plan would have been the better one?DAVEH: No, not at all. The Lord's plan of "salvation" was infinitely better than the Adversary's plan. (I could explain why, but some in TT would accuse me of preaching Mormonism, or even worse!) To me, the plan of salvation as enveloped in the gospel has a grand an noble purpose that requires all the steps we've/I've discussed (in TT since I've been posting), starting with Adam Eve transgressing..which I believe was a fundamental step in that plan. Without the 'fall', there could be no 'salvation' (as I would think of itwhich is distinctly different from the Protestant definition). Hence, the Lord's work would not be able to progress. BTW..I realize my above explanation might seem convoluted and difficult to follow.sorry
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Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism

2003-12-04 Thread michael douglas

Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
DAVEH: My latest post is in BLUE
michael douglas wrote:

DAVEH: We believe JS was a prophet of God despite his warts, much in the same way Moses was a prophet. I've never heard anybody claim that Wesley was a prophet, but rather merely a reformer.
Consider that a modern Wesleyan may readily repudiate much of what John Wesley taught. For example, a modern Wesleyan may readily reject infant baptism, yet infant baptism was ardently taught and commanded by John Wesley. On the other hand, a Mormon may not reject Joseph Smith.
DAVEH: Correct. It wouldn't make any more sense if they did, than if a Christian or Jew were to believe Moses was a false prophet.
Michael D: Gentlemen, permit me to point out to Hansen, that although Moses is undisputably a true prophet, JS has been time and again proven to be a false prophet here on TT.
DAVEH: I respectfully disagree, Michael.
Michael D: As I expected that you would (respectfully and all), but as I recall, JS was shown to be the one who prophesied that his wife would die, but he instead died after declaring such, while she lived on. Now, that speaks volumes for anyone to see, not so ???
Of course the LDSers cannot afford to countenance such an assertion, so they tend to offer many spurious arguments to explain away the obvious errors of JS's ways.
Stated another way, it seems clear to many of us that despite the name of your church, Joseph Smith is the cornerstone of your faith. Would you agree?
DAVEH: No, I would not agree. Jesus is the cornerstone of our religion. JS was merely a tool in his hands.
Michael D: To the discerning eye, Dave H., neither of those comes close to being the truth.DAVEH: I respectfully disagree with your opinion, Michael.
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Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism

2003-12-03 Thread michael douglas

Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

David Miller wrote: DAVEH wrote: I explained that we have always considered ourselves (members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) to be Christian. Our Church is even named after him. Is yours??? The term "Mormon" was given to us by our detractors, and it kinda stuck. We don't feel ashamed of it as the anti-Mormon folks from the early days had hoped. We still are Christians, as Jesus Christ is the focal point of our religion. We believe in his miraculous birth, death and resurrection. ... Mormons are Christians despite what you may believe or think. Excellent debate point, Dave. The church of the Mormons is named after Christ, while the Wesleyans are named after a man. Nevertheless, surely you must consider that while you claim to be after Christ, your organization is
inexplicablyDAVEH: "Inexplicably"...I don't think so! tied to Joseph Smith, much more so than Wesleyans are tied to John Wesley.DAVEH: We believe JS was a prophet of God despite his warts, much in the same way Moses was a prophet. I've never heard anybody claim that Wesley was a prophet, but rather merely a reformer. Consider that a modern Wesleyan may readily repudiate much of what John Wesley taught. For example, a modern Wesleyan may readily reject infant baptism, yet infant baptism was ardently taught and commanded by John Wesley. On the other hand, a Mormon may not reject Joseph Smith.DAVEH: Correct. It wouldn't make any more sense if they did, than if a Christian or Jew were to believe Moses was a false prophet.
Michael D: Gentlemen, permit me to point out to Hansen, that although Moses is undisputably a true prophet, JS has been time and again proven to be a false prophet here on TT. Of course the LDSers cannot afford to countenance such an assertion, so they tend tooffer many spuriousarguments to explain away the obvious errors of JS's ways. If I considered Joseph Smith to have misrepresented the Book of Abraham and that he falsely claimed to be able to translate it, could I still become a member of your church? If I reject the Book of Mormon as not being Scripture, can I become a member of your church? If I consider several prophecies of Joseph Smith as recorded in the Doctrine Covenants to be false, can I be a good Mormon? Surely you must recognize that the answer to all these questions is no.DAVEH: Similarly, if one thought Moses misrepresented what he wrote in the
Bible, it would be difficult to be a Christian, would it not? This is the dissimulation that strikes many of us as repulsive. You claim to follow Jesus Christ, but in practice your religion is based in Joseph Smith.DAVEH: No, it is based on Jesus Christ. JS was merely a prophet who was an instrument in the Lord's hands in the restoration of the Church. The Bible is full of prophets who some accepted as doing the Lord's work, and others didn't. Lutherans, Wesleyans, and Calvinists might emphasize various teachings of the men who gave them foundation, but ultimately they will lay aside the teachings of these men to emphasize that which Jesus taught.DAVEH: Whether one accepts JS or not, I don't think he claimed to be saying anything other than what he claimed the Lord wanted him to reveal. For instance, baptism for the dead...some TTers (you, if I remember correctly) have assumed he came upwith that
from reading the Bible. I believe the Bible was not the reason we practice it today, but rather because JS received revelation from God commanding it. Please do not misunderstand. I consider it carnality to use these labels of men, and something clearly condemned in 1 Cor. 3. Nevertheless, I recognize that in actual practice, they do not follow a man as closely as the Mormons follow Joseph Smith. Do you disagree?DAVEH: Yes. However, you are comparing JS who claimed (and is believed) to be a prophet to guys who had no inclination to make that claim. I think it would be better if you were to compare him to Biblical prophets, such as Moses. Then your comparison might be more significant.
Michael D: I do hope David takes up this challenge, because there is really no comparison whatsoever. Stated another way, it seems clear to many of us that despite the name of your church, Joseph Smith is the cornerstone of your faith. Would you agree?DAVEH: No, I would not agree. Jesus is the cornerstone of our religion. JS was merely a tool in his hands.
Michael D: To the discerning eye, Dave H., neither of those comes close to being the truth.--~~~Dave Hansen[EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.langlitz.com~~~If you wish to receivethings I find interesting,I maintain Five email lists...JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS,STUFF and MOTORCYCLE.--"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man.." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you

Re: [TruthTalk] Questions

2003-11-14 Thread michael douglas

Slade Henson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:




 I don't see any sabbath in the NT other than the sabbath rest spoken of in Hebrews 4 

Well, keep looking.

shalom

Michael D: Slade,do you often send folks on wild goose chases? It would be nice if you were able to help himout by showing a specific passage...

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RE: [TruthTalk] lesbians don't have real sex...

2003-11-14 Thread michael douglas

ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Michael, What difference does it make? After all, according to many on TT, we are heretics if we keep Gods Commandments. Izzy
Michael D: Nice one Izzy. You should remember though, that the new covenant forbids sexual immorality.

Those of you who are zealous of the law, do you keep all of the commandments listed in the law? Do you attempt to do that Izzy? If not, I would be curious to know why not?

24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.28And
even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of michael douglasSent: Monday, November 10, 2003 12:01 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] lesbians don't have real sex...

Michael D: Iz, A close friend of mine (brother in the Lord) had the same thing dealt to him here in Trinidad by the courts a few years ago. It is stunning indeed.ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Lesbians not guilty of adultery? http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=35496. Izzy

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Re: [TruthTalk] Seventh Day Sabbath Keeping

2003-11-14 Thread michael douglas

Slade Henson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Now please answer my question. According to Torah, is it right or wrong to pick up sticks on Sabbath. Shouldn't we define work on the Sabbath according to God's Word and not according to what we personally think is ok or not?That's been my point... allow the Bible to define the subject. Whether it'sa sin to pick up sticks on the Shbbat is a sin or not depends upon thesituation. Suppose a man didn't prepare enough wood the day before to heathis house on the Shabbat, and a cold snap came through. Does he and hisfamily (including a newborn baby) suffer or does he pick up sticks in orderto make his family comfortable on the most important day of the week? If yousay NO STICK GATHERING, then let be remind you of the ass in the pit, or theman who needed healing on the Shabbat. You object to the translation, "burn a fire"? Please expound upon the Hebrew for us and tell us why you object.I object
because to snuff out every fire before the beginning of Shabbatsuffers those in the high north or south to death and great inconvenience.Instead of looking forward to Shabbat, it becomes a curse because the nextthree to five days (IF they survive) must be spent defrosting their frozenwater pipes. One friend of mine indicates that he believes what is meant isno WORK fires (forges, etc.). I don't completely agree with his perspectivebut it's interesting nonetheless. Exodus 35:3 says, "Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day." (Exodus 35:3 KJV)What about YHVH's house and the perpetually burning Menorah? What about theperpetually burning altar? The Hebrew word translated fire here is "esh," which is usually translated "fire" but also as burning, firey, flaming, and hot. The word is translated as "hot" in Leviticus
13:24 Lev 13:24 Or if there be any flesh, in the skin whereof there is a hot [esh] burning [mikvah], and the quick flesh that burneth have a white bright spot, somewhat reddish, or white; Clearly we do not expect actual flames in this particular context, but rather an intense heat. This is one reason why I think modern electric cooking stoves would be included in the language and intent of this prohibition of work on Sabbath.Interesting how you use multiple definitions of a word to define it use in asingular place. BAD BAD BAD hermeneutics. Try doint that with English wordslike PIT or BREAD, and you will be extremely confused. That's right, and the word "justification" is not just "salvation" according to the western mindset of get saved then move on to other things. Paul is addressing how believers ought to move forward in their justification once they
have come to faith in Jesus Christ. O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? HAVING BEGUN IN THE SPIRIT, ARE YE NOW MADE PERFECT BY THE FLESH? Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? (Galatians 3:1-5 KJV)"Gal 5:4 -- You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by thelaw; you have fallen away from grace." This is the main point of Galatians.Paul was reinstructing the church that justification does NOT come from theLaw (even Moses told us that... like, duh!). This
is the same messagepreached at the Jerusalem Council.
Slade, please wake up... You keep stretching the scriptures to say what you want them to say. The Council did point out that the Justification does not come from the law, but it also emphasized not to command the Gentiles to keep the law of Moses. All of your posts on these topics amount to commanding folks to keep the law of Moses, (regardless of the language in which it happens to be couched) else they will be judged for it. The Holy Ghost must have really pulled a fast one on the Gentiles (if we are to listen to you). Something like, 'Hey guys, I am not commanding you to keep the law, for it is by the grace of the Lord Jesus you will be saved [vs. 11], but if you don't keep the law, I am going to judge you for it...' H. The Jerusalem Council said no such thing, however!!!.
James, on the other hand, gives us atreatise that says faith is not in a valuum but is proven through the workswe do.Izzy and my attempts to SHOW our faith by our works (whether these works aredefined in the Older or in the Newer covenants) are the real issue here...or so it seems. As James says, "Show me your faith without the works, andI'll show you my faith BY my works."Michael D: You are contradicting Paul, here. Paul says a man is justified by faith without the works of the law, you say you and Izzy are showing your faith by obeying the works of the law, and that when we stand

Re: [TruthTalk] lesbians don't have real sex...

2003-11-10 Thread michael douglas

Michael D: Iz, A close friend of mine (brother in the Lord) had the same thing dealt to him here in Trinidad by the courts a few years ago. It is stunning indeed.ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:





Lesbians not guilty of adultery? http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=35496. Izzy

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Re: [TruthTalk] Seventh Day Sabbath Keeping

2003-11-05 Thread michael douglas

Slade Henson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:




UNDER THE LAW = salvation through works
UNDER GRACE = salvation through grace

Nowhere has anyone ever advocated salvation through works. 
Michael D: Slade you are missing me altogether. You have said many times (as well as Izzy) that you don't believe in salvation through the law (let me know if I am wrong). You also said that you let the Holy Spirit deal with folks concerning keeping the Torah (again, correct me if I misread you). So my points are not addressing works for salvation at all.
Let me try and say it plainly: Romans 3:19 tells us the target of the law, and the purpose of the law i.e. 
The target of the law is for those under the law, the purpose of the law is for guilt and condemnation. In fact the term used is quite emphatic '...what things soever the law saith...' 

That tells me that everything contained in the law had a target audience. In Christ, we are no longer under the law, so the what things soever does not speak to us. 

What I hear you and Izzy saying is that although we aren't justified by the law, we still need to keep it(again, please explain if I am missing you here). My question again is, what sense is there in that, if the goal of God is achieved without the law i.e. having sons through the Spirit? 

In Galatians Paul says, If we have begun in the Spirit, are we now made perfect in by the flesh? The obvious emphasis is that we are not, and that we are perfected by by continuing in faith through the Spirit(through which we entered into righteousness in the first place).

If then this is the path to perfection, what good is there in going back to obey the law? It can't perfect us.It can't help us. One might say he dooes it out of love for God, that's fine if he wants top express his love that way. God however makes no universal demand of believers in that regard as Romans 14 tells us. That's why Paul said in Rom 7, and Gal 2, that we are dead to the law - and it's not just for salvation, but for life requirements as well.. Paul obviously lived this way as evidenced by his refusal to circumcise Timothy (and the other Gentiles around whom the controversy at the Jerusalem councilcentred) in response to obligation, but later did it to stop the mouths of his enemies.

You're arguing for argument's sake. Stop it.
Slade, I wouldhave to beg your pardon, here. You are quite misplaced to conclude that I am arguing for argument sake. Please don't ever make that mistake concerning me. Truth is a very serious thing (as I've often stated on TT before you ever arrived...), and few here will spend countless hours of their precious timeoffering perspectives'for argument's sake'. If you choose to characterize your contributions as such, I will concede that that's fair enough.
shalom
slade
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

- Original Message - 
From: michael douglas 
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, 04 November, 2003 11:49
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Seventh Day Sabbath Keeping


Michael D: Izzy and Judith, Exodus 20:9-10 are truly God's word and commandment. However, that same God stated in the New Testament in Rom.3:19 that all things said in the law weremeant for those who are under the law.Therefore, as much as Exodus 20:9-10 are God's word, it was only meant for certain people to whom the covenant related. It was not meant for believing Gentiles. So there is no universal obligation on anyone's part to keep it.Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo!
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RE: [TruthTalk] Seventh Day Sabbath Keeping

2003-11-04 Thread michael douglas

ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:







 [Original Message]
 From: Judith H. Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]
It is here and now while we are living in this world of fear,
 stress,
 anxiety, and unbelief that we need his 'sabbath' rest every day of the
 week
 not just Saturday and/or Sunday.

Exodus 20
8 "Remember (1) the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 
9 "(2) Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 
10 but the seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God; in it (3) you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you.
Michael D: Izzy and Judith, Exodus 20:9-10 are truly God's word and commandment. However, that same God stated in the New Testament in Rom.3:19 that all things said in the law weremeant for those who are under the law.Therefore, as much as Exodus 20:9-10 are God's word, it was only meant for certain people to whom the covenant related. It was not meant for believing Gentiles. So there is no universal obligation on anyone's part to keep it.
Izzy
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RE: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-11-04 Thread michael douglas

ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

-Original Message-Notice how Paul says that the law has DOMINION over a man as long as he
lives. Now he tries to explain a way for us to die that we should no
longer be married to the law and be under its dominion, but rather now
we can be married to Christ. Do you see it in this passage? We cannot
be married to Christ unless we are divorced from the law. Do you see
that in this passage?

David, I see being divorced from the law as not relying upon the law to get (or stay) saved. I do not see it as license to disregard the law and live in rebellion to the law.
It seems that you can agree to that as long as Gods law is considered some foggy, ethereal, touchy-feely (and unwritten) thing all about Luv, luv, luv. J You dont want it to include the literal law for some reason,
Michael D: Hey Iz, it was the Holy Ghost who demanded that the Law not be commandedfor the Gentiles. If this is the case, then what is the benefit of obeying the law?
You tend to differentiate between obeying to be saved and obeying out of an obligation to keep God's commands. My question is ...if obeying the law cannot get you saved, nor do they keep you saved, what's the value of requiring it at all - especially since God said don't require it of the Gentiles?
and yet you say that you believe in keeping the literal law by obeying a higher law. Am I the only one that this makes NO sense to? Youve learned Geometry and Algebra, but thrown away basic math again. IzzyWant to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo!
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RE: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-10-31 Thread michael douglas

Slade wrote:
I understand where you're coming from, Izzy. The Text tells us two things: we cannot have righteousness without faith, but the Text also says the commandments of God are our righteousness.

Michael D: Slade, I say thisnot in contention, but out of concern. It seems that you do not consider some clear statements in the NT in arriving at your position re the law. Paul Says In Romans 3:
19. Now we know that what things soever the law saith it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Now, I know that we all know what what things soever means. I would like it if you would offer an explanation ofwhat you understand this verse to be saying.

I love dichotomies like this because... frankly... there ARE no dichotomies if we practice proper hermeneutics. Unfortunately, most Biblical scholars are too lazy... or they don't like what they see so they skew the results.

You asked "Why is this a problem with anybody?"

Realistically the answer could be simply that divergent thinking in Christianity is generally looked down on (cultic ideals, you know...)
Theother possibility (the one that will get me razed here I'm sure) is that if you believe in keeping the commandments of God and you still have faith in Yeshua... perhaps you're right and their walk is lacking something. Living in a Capitalistic society has given rise to what I call "greatest common denomination." Under this ideal, the idea espoused by the most people must be the right one, and if you can convince more people to believe in your doctrine (no matter how divergent) than who disbelieve, the doctrine is correct. We see this all the time with "testimonial commercials" on television and radio. You, Izzy, have a divergent doctrine, so it must be squashed, otherwise its existence threatens a preconceived notion or existing doctrine.

shalom

slade

Michael D:What an unfortunate offering. Slade, you are making it sound as though because you and Izzy have 'divergent' doctrine(s) those who disagree (inspite of a plethora of scriptural evidence to support their position) are rejecting divergence just because it is divergent. I find this to be very unfortunate, indeed. I do say, there are folks who labour hard here to present cogent positions in their posts. I do wonder how they feel about your indictment...Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo!
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RE: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-10-30 Thread michael douglas

ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Michael D wrote : As you know Iz, I do not disagree with the above statement. It's the notion that this is a requirement for all believers that I, and others, are trying toshow is contrary to the word of God.

Izzy wrote:
Michael, You have to do whatever the Holy Spirit leads you to do.
If you want to disregard the 4th commandment, that is between the two of you.
If you dont think you have replaced Sabbath rest with Sunday rest, that is up to your own conscience.
I must do what the Lord has put on my heart.
Obviously, Michael, you are not heearing me.
Michael D: Iz, I think I am understanding you, but it does seem that somehow we are missing each other.Let me reiterate that I agree with youthat Sabbath keeping is a thing of conscience. Rest assured I have no problem with that whatsoever.
You have said on different occasions, though, that you believe that everyone needs to keep the sabbath commandment along with the other nine (if I remember correctly). Others on TT have emphasized this as well. That is what I am trying to indicate is contradicted by the scripture that declares that the Holy Ghost said don't command the Gentiles to keep the law. Can you understand the point I am trying to make, Izzy?
Izzy Posted:
Just as satan has blinded the Jews to Messiah Yeshua, satan has blinded the church to Torahs eternal truths. Repentance for our ignorance and unbelief is needed on both sides. Then Israel will be restored, and Messiah will return. Maranatha!!!
Izzy wrote: Before you have a stroke, let me re-iterate: We are not saved by obedience to Torah. We are not saved by abstinence from sin. We are saved only by faith in the redeeming sacrifice of Jesus! But we express our faith through obedience to His Word, as faith without works is dead.
The more God leads us into a love of His Word, the more blessed we are! Conversely, the more one distains His word, the more one expresses unbelief/ignorance.
In reading your many posts on this topic, you tend to fluctuate between requiring obedience to the Sabbath commandment as part of God's word and law, and obedience to one's conscience re the Sabbath. (See below).
Izzy

Michael,

Michael D: Can you see how this conflicts with your statement that a person has to do what God tells him (conscience) re sabbath keeping? If God never voided the Sabbath, then our conscience would not come into the picture, would it? It is the fact that He voided it that makes it optional/conscience-based. Can you agree with that? Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo!
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RE: [TruthTalk]What Does Under the Law Really Mean?

2003-10-28 Thread michael douglas

Michael D: I have not been able to keep up with my contributions concerning this topic like I would like. Thank God David is doing a wonderful job at it. I will try to get back to Izzy's reply to my last contribution soon. I am also looking foward to Chris Barr's reply to my response to his Sabbath arguments. Are you there, Chris?David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hi Kay. I can't speak for everyone, but I am definitely not antinomian.When you post general material like you have, it is difficult to respondbecause the authors of that material misunderstand those of us inChristianity who have somewhat of a different perspective. What bothersme the most about the material you quoted is that it assumes twodifferent faiths. It assumes the faith of Christians and the faith ofMessianics are different. This is very divisive and troubling to me.We are either of the same body or we are not. It does not matter howpolite or nice a person is when he distinguishes between Christians andMessianics, but by speaking of them as he does with this nomenclature,he creates a carnal rift whereby some are "of Paul" or "of Apollos." Inthis case, you are either "of Messianics" or "of Christianity." Ofcourse, throughout his
 dialogue, the Christians are blind and call thesky green and the grass blue.I did want to make a few comments about the second article you shared.Kay quoted the following:Most of the Messianics that this writer has encountered turn to theworks of Messianic Jewish theologian David H. Stern, author of severalbooks, including the Jewish New Testament and Jewish New TestamentCommentary. He explains that the Greek phrase "upo nomon," which istranslated as "under Law" in most Bibles, more accurately means "insubjection to the system which results in perverting the Torah intolegalism."[19] Using the example of Romans 6:14-15 given above, the JNTtranslates these verses as:"For sin will not have authority over you; because you are not underlegalism but under grace. Therefore, what conclusion should we reach?'Let's go on sinning, because we're not under legalism but under grace'?Heaven
 forbid!"Justifying this translation, Stern comments in the Jewish New TestamentCommentary that "The word twice translated 'under,' upo, means'controlled by'.or 'in subjection to,"[20] which leads him to concludethat the best translation of nomos (nomoß)[21] is "legalism," ratherthan the traditional translation "Law," which would mean "Torah." --I think Stern has done a great disservice by translating this way. Hechooses to use "Torah" instead of law in many places, and I can acceptthat, but in these important passages where the meaning is veryimportant, he purposefully finds a rationale for changing the word for"Torah" to "Legalism." That is very dangerous. People will miss thetrue meaning of the passage this way. And the excuse that histranslation is not a literal translation is hardly appreciated. That'slike someone objecting to the way the Living Bible translates a passage,and we are
 suppose to think it is ok because the Living Bible is not aliteral translation. Stern is not faithful to his own translation of the individual words.If he translates "hupo" as "being controlled by" or "in subjection to,"then the Romans 6:14 passage should be translated to say, "you are notcontrolled by or in subjection to Torah." He does not translate it thatway because it is contrary to his understanding that we are insubjection to Torah.Kay quoted the following:Are You "Under Torah"?Take to serious heart the words of Devarim/Deuteronomy 27:26:"'Accursed is one who will not uphold the words of this Torah, to perform them.' And the entire people shall say, 'Amen.'" The Hebrew verb translated "accursed" is arar (rra).[37] The Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament tells us"that the majority of 'curse' sayings with arar fall into one of three general categories: (1) the
 declaration of punishments.(2) the utterance of [something]...(3) the proclamation of laws.It is interesting that all these curse-sayings are a reflex of one violating his relationship to God."[38]In other words, it is quite clear that when we violate the commandments of Torah and fail to abide by its statues that we damage the relationship with our Heavenly Father that we should be having. When we understand this, Paul's words in Galatians 3:10 take on a whole new meaning: "For as many as are outside of the works of Torah are under a curse. For it is written, 'Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do all the things written in the scroll of the Torah, to do them.'"This verse quotes directly from Devarim/Deuteronomy 27:26. Those who are "outside works of the Torah," ex ergon nomou (ex ergwn nomou) are "under a curse," hupo kataran (upo kataran). It is important to note that the Greek preposition ek
 (ek), commonly translated as "out of," can also mean "Removalout, from, off, or away."[39] This makes

RE: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-10-22 Thread michael douglas

ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:





Michael, 

Those who attempt to obtain salvation by the obeying the Law are under the law. I am not. 
I do, however, choose to be obedient to the commandment of resting on the Sabbath.

Michael D: Good to hear that you are not under the law Izzy. Listen to what Romans 3 says for your benefit:
19. Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Would I be correct then in saying that the law does not speak to you (seeing you are not under the law)? 
If it does not speak to you, then obeying it is a matter of choice rather than requirement, wouldn't you agree? In fact you did specify that (coloured in red above). No one has a problem with that, Izzy.The question is:
How does one reconcile having to obey the law, when God says it does not speak to those who are not under the law: showing clear choice rather than requirement??? 
I eagerly await your response to these questions, Iz.Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo!
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RE: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-10-22 Thread michael douglas

ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Michael,

Those who attempt to obtain salvation by the obeying the Law are under the law. I am not. I do, however, choose to be obedient to the commandment of resting on the Sabbath. God never voided the Sabbath. Jesus, Paul, and all the apostles observed Sabbath, even after Jesus rose.
Michael D: It is clear Izzy, that Paul never required the Gentiles to keep the Sabbath day commandment. That has nothing to do with the RCC. Acts 15 makes that very clear.
Hey Izzy, did you take up my suggestion to read through Acts 15 carefully re what the apostles and the Holy Ghost said about keeping the law of Moses? What do you think they were emphasizing? I'd love to hear your insights on that.

The RCC voided the Sabbath in 364 AD by replacing it with mans better idea of Sun-day. Originally Sunday through Thursday were just numbered days, counting down to the only named day of the week, the Sabbath. I obey that commandment by faith that the Lord had a good reason for it, that He blesses those who obey it (just like He blesses us in all obedient attitudes), and because it is a picture of the Millennium Reign of Christ in the 7th millennium.

Izzy

Izzy, I think one must understand that worshipping on Sunday, as practised today, is not a replacement for Sabbath keeping per se. It is a day when Christians choose to meet to be edified (really should be to edify each other a la I Cor 14). It could have been Wednesday (if societal normswere organized around that day) the same things would take place. Those who call Sunday the Christian Sabbath are a bit mistaken. The Christian Sabbath has nothing to do with a day. That's why Paul says, one man esteems one day above the others, but another man esteems all alike, and both are OK. The fact that our rest is in Christ, allows those options to be both acceptable.

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RE: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-10-17 Thread michael douglas

Bruce Woodford [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Hi Izzy,You wrote:"Bruce, I am surprised at you for wondering why the issue of the 10 Commandments being banned by our federal government is cause for alarm to God-fearing Americans. It seems that if there is, indeed, a God who judges nations for their attitude towards Him (and His Word) that this alone is enough to make us shudder!"I whole heartedly agree with you that there is tremendous lack of the fear of God in our society, and also that God judges not only nations but men and women for their attitude towards Him and His Word. However, that was not the point I was seeking to make. I was rather trying to emphasize that the 10 Commandments (as a unit) were not given to all mankind inclusively, but rather to the nation of Israel exclusively. (See Exodus 20:2) In fact, the "Ten Commandments" comprised the very covenant that God made with the nation of Israel at Sinai.(Deut 4:13; 5:3) He made no such covenant with any other
people on earth! However many other scriptures clearly indicate that 9 of the 10 ARE required by God of all people.Having a godly attitude toward the Word of God does NOT mean obeying every command given to every person, group or nation in the Book! Parents are not to obey commands given to children. Men are not to obey commands given to women. Women are not to obey commands given to men. Jews are not to obey commands given to Gentiles and Gentiles are not to obey commands given to Jews! For me to love and obey the Word of God means knowing and obeying the commands that God intended for me! Obeying commands that God did not intend for me but rather for someone else may actually be disobedient, IF such obedience violates commands that are for me!BTW, were you aware that while 13 or 14 different designations for "the Ten Commandments" are used in scripture, the term "the law" is NOT one of them?!!"The law" is used
of the Pentateuch (the law of Moses) and it is also used of the entire scriptures from Genesis to Malachi. But nowhere in scripture is the term"the law" used particularly and specificly of just the Ten Commandments.I had asked: "How many Christians that you know, who support keeping the Ten Commandments in Federal Buildings, feel any responsibility to keep the seventh day sabbath (Ex.20:8-11; Deut.5:11-14)?"You responded:"I do. And the Holy Spirit is calling many others, also. Only He knows how many. "Dear Sister, even though you may not be of the nation of Israel, it is certainly your prerogative to observe the 7th day as a sabbath if you so choose. (Romans 14:5,6) However, there is no scripture that indicates that any Gentile or any non-Jewish Christian has any RESPONSIBILITY before God to keep the 7th day sabbath (or any other day!)You wrote to me:"The fact that you think the Ten Commandments were ONLY given
to the nation of Israel makes me realize that you are not quite as enlightened, spiritually, as I assumed you were.
Michael D: Please allow me to reiterate a point I have laboured on for some time relating to this subject. I encourage you,Izzy to read Acts 15 carefully. It states clearly that the Holy Ghost commanded the apostles and other believers not to require obedience to the law of the Gentiles. If one can understand this, it will help clear up alot of the misconceptions re believers having to keep the sabbath etc:
vs 5. But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. vs 24. Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying ye must be circumcised and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment: 28. For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
One should subject his/her feelings about the law to this clear pronouncement of God in the midst of a contentious struggle among the early saints. Those who require the law of believers are said to be subverting their souls... Interesting concept.
Of course Romans 3 says the specific reason for the law being given and to whom it applied. For those who are in Christ, the law can make no legitimate demands.
19. Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Rom 7:
1. know ye not brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law has dominion over a man as long as he liveth? 4.Wherefore my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that you should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit from the dead.
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Re: [TruthTalk] Ten Commandments Support

2003-10-17 Thread michael douglas

Chris Barr [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:






\o/ !HALALUYah! \o/ 


Greetings Marlin et al in the Matchless NameofYahShua!!

- Original Message - 
From: Marlin Halverson 
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 10/01/2003 10:22 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Ten Commandments Support


"you are adding things in to the Romans passage that aren't there"
Some time ago, Slade, I believe, answered the question about Romans 14, and included the O.T. references. 
--Marlin
I find it sad yet amusing that the one making accusation about adding things in to the Romans passage that aren't there is guilty of the very accusation that he has falsely made of you.



- Original Message - 
From: Marlin Halverson 
To: Chris Barr
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 01/11/2003 10:59 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Romans 14

Dear Chris, 

Thanks for your reply to what I shared. Time is so precious. I see that you have already compiled some answers here to questions that were posed to me. Since I do not have the time now myself, I shall share what you have written with the TruthTalk group. I invite you to sign up for the list. I might recommend a separate email address because sometimes the posts can pile up.



- Original Message - 
From: Chris Barr
To: Marlin Halverson 
Sent: Saturday, January 11, 2003 4:53 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Godly diet


\o/ !HALALU Yah! \o/ 



Greetings in the Matchless Name of YahShua [that's the name Jesus was called by His mom, dad, brothers, sisters, disciples and others who loved Him] :) !!


Michael D: I have refrained from touching this lengthy thesis for months, but in as much as it has resurfaced, I think I must address it, lest folks are left with the impression that I think that it accurately handles the issues in question.


In order to understand Romans 14 one FIRST has to KNOW Scripture (ALL OF IT -- not just "New Testament").SECOND one has to OBEY Scripture (Jeremiah 29:13 / II Timothy 2:15). THIRD one has to be HONEST in one's heart toward Scripture and MOST IMPORTANT OF ALL its SOURCE. Agreed!


People who cite Romans 14 as against Sabbath keeping and/or for eating anything one wants are the ones trying to find a way AROUND Scripture rather than seeking to be obedient to Scripture. Not at all

"To the law [torah] and to the testimony [tanak]: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is NO LIGHT IN THEM." Isaiah 8:20 
There are more than a dozen Scripture references to those "doing right in their own eyes" ... there are exactly ZERO of these that are of a positive nature. 
The interpretation given by most to Romans 14 is that of inference. It is a stand alone witness??? that goes against each and every Scriptural and direct reference without so much as a second witness (required by torah and ENDORSED by The SAVIOUR in the ReNEWed Testament). 
This is where you do greatly err. Acts 15 deals with this comprehensively. God says don't command the Gentiles to keep the law!!!
I Corinthians 8:8. But meat (food) commendeth us not to God: for neither if we eat are we the better, neither if we eat not are we the worse.
Those who feel that eating/abstaining fromcertain meats (foods) is important to Godneed to receive the truth of this scripture.
I have given 2 witnesses, but I will give you a third: Jesus':
Mk 7:14. ... hearken unto me everyone of you and understand: 15. There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile him. 16. If any man have ears to hear let him hear.
Jesus says if we have ears to hear we will hear. Now that is three witnessess, which totally contradict your above assertion that Rom. 14 is a stand-alone witness.
"Choose ye this day whom ye will serve ..." etc.
NOW for some REAL answers for those seeking honestly after truth. Remember Deuteronomy 8:3 / Matthew 4:4 / Luke 4:4 ... it is EVERY Word that proceeds from the mouth of Yah that we live by. It does not say by EACH Word. We don't just pick one here and/or there. ALL Scripture will match up and agree if we have the right answer. 
Rav Shaul/Saul/Paul was a master of Torah. The vast majority of his writings are right out of Torah but most people miss that because they are in darkness (Isaiah 8:20 / Matthew 7:13-14).
The subject of Romans 14 is not Sabbath, vegetarianism, and clean foods (as nearly all teach that it does). It is ONLY about ONE THING ... 

"Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition." Matthew 15:6 ... WORDS of The Saviour 
I wish you had continued down to vs 10  11...It says: 
 10. And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear and understand: 11. Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man: but that which cometh out of the mouth defileth a man. This corresponds perfectly with all Paul has said about freedom to eat whatsoever one wishes. It can't defile him. The context of your own quote is a witness against your thesis.

If one is looking for

Re: [TruthTalk] Fw: How do you?

2003-10-10 Thread michael douglas

Michael D: HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA!!!Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

During this lull in the conversation, I thought I would offer some humor for Dave Hanson and anyone else who needs a smile.

Terry
1. How Do You Catch A Unique bird? Unique Up On It. 2. How Do You Catch A Tame bird? Tame Way, Unique Up On It. 3. How Do Crazy People Go Through The Forest? They Take The Psycho Path 4. What Do Eskimos Get From Sitting On The Ice too Long? Polaroids 5. What Do You Call A Boomerang That Doesn't work? A Stick. 6. What Do You Call Cheese That Isn't Yours? Nacho Cheese. 7. What Do You Call Santa's Helpers? Subordinate Clauses. 8. What Do You Call Four Bullfighters In Quicksand? Quatro Sinko. 9. What Do You Get From A Pampered Cow? Spoiled Milk. 10. What Do You Get When You Cross A Snowman With A Vampire? Frostbite. 11. What Lies At The Bottom Of The Ocean And Twitches? A Nervous Wreck. 12. What's The Difference Between Roast Beef And Pea Soup? Anyone Can Roast
Beef. 13. Where Do You Find A Dog With No Legs? Right Where You Left Him. 14. Why Do Gorillas Have Big Nostrils? Because They Have Big Fingers. 15. Why Don't Blind People Like To Sky Dive? Because It Scares The Dog. 16. What Kind Of Coffee Was Served On The Titanic? Sanka. 17. What Is The Difference Between A Harley And A Hoover? The Location Of The Dirt Bag. 18. Why Did Pilgrims' Pants Always Fall Down? Because They Wore Their Belt Buckle On Their Hat. 19. How Are A Texas Tornado And A Tennessee Divorce The Same? Somebody's Gonna Lose A Trailer Now, admit it. At least one of these made you smile! Have a great day God is Good... All the TIme!

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Re: [TruthTalk] Ten Commandments Support

2003-10-02 Thread michael douglas

Marlin Halverson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Marlin, What is the rest that the Israelites did not enter into? Was it the keeping of the seventh day, or something else? Could it have been the entering into the promised land that they were forbidden to do because of their failure to believe the promise of God, and therefore not obey His instructions?
Yes, the instructions, including Sabbath keeping, were disbelieved. They wanted to go out and gather manna on the Sabbath among other issues.
The analogy of entering the rest in the promised land is based upon the concrete truth of the Sabbath, something that the Hebrews all identified with. Abolition of, or changing the day of the Sabbath was never an issue.
The writer clearlydeclares that "Sabbath keeping" [Greek] remains for the people of God while cautioning followers not to fall into the same pitfalls of unbelief that kept the exodus generation from entering the promised land.
"you are adding things in to the Romans passage that aren't there"
Some time ago, Slade, I believe, answered the question about Romans 14, and included the O.T. references.
Michael D: Yes, I believe he offered an answer, but it was the same base of assumptions that have no bearing on the passages in question.
Just read Acts 15 as written, and one can't miss the clear mandate of the Holy Ghost, Himself, that the Gentiles are not to be commanded to keep the law of Moses. All the OT references in the world, can't overrule that clear directive of the Spirit of God Himself. As Paulsays, one man esteemsone day above the other, another esteems all alike. Keeping the sabbath day has nothing of itself to do with pleasing God. If you feel convinced that you should keep it, you are free to do soof course, else it would be sin for you if you didn't. Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo!
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Re: [TruthTalk] Ten Commandments Support

2003-10-01 Thread michael douglas

MD: Hey folks, I've been out of circulation for a while. Been on vacation, among other things... I'll have to try and get caught up a bit.
It is very good to see that Carroll is back on TT, especially since he's crossed my mind lately. I probably should have lifted you up in prayer, Carroll,so I'll try andmake up for that.

Anyway, I thought I should respond to Marlin's statement re the necessity of sabbath-keeping.

Marlin Halverson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

"...If God intended that one day was to be observed by new covenant saintsin a particular way that was distinct from all the rest, Paul could neverhave written Romans 14:5 and 6 under the inspiration of the Spirit of God!Your brother in Christ,BruceDear Bruce,There is an evil power that "shall speak [great] words against the mostHigh, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to changetimes and laws," but the week, ending with the Sabbath, is something that God esteems, as well as the writer of Hebrews.
I definitely differ with this, Marlin.HEB 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh [day] on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.HEB 4:5 And in this [place] again, If they shall enter into my rest.
Marlin, What is the rest that the Israelites did not enter into? Was it the keeping of the seventh day, or something else? Could it have been the entering into the promised land that they were forbidden to do because of their failure to believe the promise of God, and therefore not obey His instructions?
HEB 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:HEB 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
It seems that the day God reserved/limited was today (the now day) as opposed to the seventh day. It's the day on which we hear His voice/word to us that we are to believe and accept and in so doing obey the voice/word of the Lord.
HEB 4:8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
If the argument of Hebrews4 pertained to the seventh day, how could Joshua have been expected to give them rest?HEB 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest [Greek: sabbatismos, sabbath keeping] to the people of God. Amen! one of faith in the finished work of Jesus. Not in keeping of a day.
Marlin, it seems to me that you are not doing justice to the passage. Heb 4 describes the rest that we are to enter in, like God did. You did not mention that. It says that He who enters into the rest of God has ceased from his works like God did from His. How did God rest, By ceasing from all His works. This tells us that If we are to fulfill God's sabbath, we are to cease from all of our works as well. That is not accomplished by 'keeping the sabbath day'. The Romans were being troubled to esteem traditional fast days that Jews held special because of certain historical events. Paul merely points out that it did not matter whether somebody eats on those days or not.
Marlin, surely you are aware that you are adding things in to the Romans passage that aren't there. The passage gives no qualification to the sabbath days as you give here. Neither does it say that he addressed eating on certain days? I would appreciate you pointing out where the passage indicates these things. Would you care to?
These were not commanded observances of the Lord at issue in Romans 14.Sincerely,Marlin--Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo!
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Re: [TruthTalk] What is a new testament church?

2003-07-18 Thread michael douglas

Michael D:
Laura, rest assured that one has not experienced church till he has experienced a proper NT gathering where the Spirit is allowed to move through whomever He chooses. It is a real faith builder and edifier when one realizes that he can flow in the spirit and be used to touch lives in the church meeting. Not only that, but Paul exhorts believers to covet earnestly the best gifts that edifying can be brought to the body.
A couple days ago I asked a brother in Christ about the number of people he knows who are aware that they have at least onegift of the Spirit (of the nine in1 Cor 12), and are actively exercising them in the Church. He could not think of many. That reflects a very sad reality that's plaguing the Church today. The traditional church setting does not encourage the believer to seek and exercise spiritual gifts in the gathering of the saints. Paul advocates just that inI Cor 12-14. Traditional church encourges other areas of gifting and talent, but retain a stiff, exclusionary control when it comes to the meeting of the saints.
It was all too customary, many years ago in my experience, to see believers go up in a prayer line for healing and come back with the same condition after the pastor/elders prayed for them. Sometimes, I would discreetly ask different ones if they got healed and usually they would say no. I would offer to pray for them and they would get healed instantly. (This usually happened in areas where gifts of healing operated in my life).
My point is that the gifts are given for the wholeness of the Body, and if they are not encouraged, then God's answers may be right there, but buried under an exclusionary, sometimes uninformed, tradition and leadership.
Of course, there is more to the NT church than this, but this is just to give a real life example of the shortcomings of the status quo.[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Interesting method of worship. Where do you send your tithe and do you support mission programs? Laura

Yes, I am involved in a home church! But I don't think I have ever experienced a "typical house church meeting" if you know what I mean! But what IS typical is that we never have a preplanned "agenda". order of service, appointed speakers etc People's needs vary, what God has been teaching individuals or the group varies, so we seek to be open to what the Lord may do in our gatherings. Sometimes we have sung for our entire time together, sometimes we have prayed the entire time! But usually there is a variety of singing, sharing, praying, reading and discussing of scriptures. And we usually eat a meal together and remember the Lord as we do so. Even the timing of that is not "set in stone"! Sometimes we eat at the end of our time, at other times we eat at the very beginning! But above all, we desire to allow the Lord to have His way and to be sensitive to minister to needs as they arise.Your brother in
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Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus is Jehovah

2003-07-08 Thread michael douglas

Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Charles Perry Locke wrote: DaveH,  If Jesus was the God of the OT that the Jews worshiped (Jehovah), then it must be for Jesus that they built the temple(s). Yet Jesus calls the Temple his Father's house. Doesn't that create a circular argument?DAVEH: Not in my opinion. I suspect both our Heavenly Father and his Son will feel welcome in the House of the Lord!
Michael D: Hansen, I asked you a few posts ago about the troubling question your view(s) raises. You hold that many Gods exist, but only one is to be worshipped. If jesus is the Jehovah of the OT, in the LDs scheme of things, then only Jesus is to be worshipped, and not the Father. Remember I asked the question re all of the Gods that preceeded Jesus' Father, and down to Jesus Himself, who of them is the one to be worshipped? I see a big dilemma here for the LDS take on this issue. Do you care to clarify?
And again, If God was once man and became God (like all the others before Him I presume) at what point was Jesus a man before He became God, who then became a man and died etc. then became God again (since your teaching is that 'Gods' must overcome as men before they can achieve their divinity...)?Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo!
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Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus is Jehovah

2003-07-02 Thread michael douglas

Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

michael douglas wrote:

Michael D: Dave H, you have stated a few times I believe that you believe that Jesus is the Jehovah of the OT. Can you explain what you mean by that, and how do you figure that? DAVEH: Yes, Michael..I do believe JC was the "God" of the OT.
Michael D: Hansen, I havea couple questions for you in relation to your answer, here.
i) Jehovah means the Eternal One. How then could Jesus have been created by his Father, if He is eternal (having no beginning or ending)? Of course, Jesus alluded directly to the fact of His eternal being when He said '..before Abraham was I am...'
ii) David said in Psalms ...The LORD (Jehovah) said to my Lord, sit at my right hand... In the gospels Jesus identified the second 'Lord' there as referring to Himself. How does He being Jehovah fit in with Jehovah telling Jesus to sit at His right hand?
As you probably already know, I believe most Christians understand the 'oneness' of God incorrectly. And you probably already know that I believe our Father in Heaven created His Only Begotten Son, Jesus. They are two separate entities, IMHO.
Michael D: If the LDS succession of Gods concept is true, are there an innumerable host of heavenly fathers ?
Additionally, You have said, that although there are many gods, only one is to be worshipped. That raises the question of, which of all the succession of Gods might that be?
Jn 1:1-14 clearly points out that Jesus was the creator. I believe he did this at the request of his Father. In the NT we find he paid homage to his Heavenly Father, and insisted that what he (JC) did was to glorify his Father.
To me, the fact that JC was the Jewish God of the OT emphasizes the actions of the Jews when they crucified their Lord. They weren't crucifying a new upstart 'god', but rather the same God who'm they had previously worshipped.
I don't know if that answers your question, Michael. If not, ask again. However, I'm going to be rather busy for the next month or more. I'll try to respond as I can. Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo!
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[TruthTalk] Jesus is Jehovah

2003-06-25 Thread michael douglas

Michael D: Dave H, you have stated a few times I believe that you believe that Jesus is the Jehovah of the OT. Can you explain what you mean by that, and how do you figure that?Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo!
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Re: [TruthTalk] Fw: CLUELESS IN D.C.

2003-06-18 Thread michael douglas

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

[re Rapture]

FTR, _The [(scholarly)] Presence of the Future_ doesn't deal with 'the rapture', but Dr Ladd wroteseveral other books that do deal with it in very clearlanguage; and, quite well, actually, partic relative to thetime line/theology of the NT (that i've mentioned before), e.g. _The Blessed Hope_, _Revelation_ (about the Ap John's NT apocalyptic writing), and _The Last Things_

In a nutshell,GE Ladd's views of 'the rapture', like mine, are post-trib--but the case/s he makes for it 'demolish' the 'strongholds' of (current) alternative opposing views--like hittin' them squarely with aJDAM, m'am :)

(we can discuss this more..i think MD asked about it one time...
Michael D: That's right, G. Try as I might to egg on the discussion, there was not much interest on TT.
so, somebody ask a pertenant theological question:)
Any thing pertinent, Izzy? I would love to get some further inputs into the subject. One request I would make is for you, G, to detail a few of the stronghold demolitions that he delivers in his books. That would be interesting to me.

IOW
'in other words'

And WHY is a 23 year old female allowed to play on the over 50 BB team?
(Need I really ask???)

it's ok--apparently not what you were thinking...her Dad plays center field for that team; also, their team has a couple of former Colorado 'Silver Bullets'--a pro women's bb team

it's interesting; she was anall-statesb player who got into bb (her first /only 'love':) bec of her Dad's interest;she's an excellent pitcher (as well as 1b)who worksas a youth bb instructor at the ColoBaseball and Softball Assoc, housed in a big steel building partitioned with nets/cages, etc. for pitching and batting lessons/practice, etc., where i met her...a bb manager i know let me work out with his teamin the off season; one day outa the blue, she asked me if i know her Dad (i do) (and she's as good a bb player as he is, too:)..now we're arch-rivals--sorta like you and me rof:)
You do have a blast slogging it out with Izzy, don't you. I hope you realize the reason she keeps standing up to you (and others on TT) so successfully... It's because she is full of Shields Oh, oh, Bd joke... Hey, I'm taking liberties on TT that I don't usually allow myself. Maybe it's because I get criticized for my bad jokes enough down here, I don't want to face a TT onslaught as wellSeeing I don't have protection like Izzy, I better just lie low with the humour, right Mrs. Shields???

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Re: [TruthTalk] Introduction.

2003-06-16 Thread michael douglas

Michael D: Welcome to TT, Lon. Enter at your own risk.
Please be aware... TT does not accept liability for any personal injuries suffered on this forum, so make sure your personal insurance(s)is well paid up. The temperatures rise and fall in here with the suddeness of unanticipated air pocketsso, pleasebuckle your seat belt.
Believe me, rarely is it warm and cosy like these lovely cyber hugs that have cushioned your touch downin the truth zone...
Be aware that this surely ain't a place for the faint-hearted. And as far as TT is concerned, there is always a red carpetfor one more lamb to be led to the proverbial slaughter...Extra, Extra thickskin is definitely a must for your survival kit. Crocodiles might be one's best friend in this zone...
Well Lon, to be forewarned is to be forearmed.

Enjoy the ride...
Michael Douglas (Trinidad Tobago)

Lonnie mackley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Hello Everyone,
I am new to Truth Talk and I wanted to briefly intoduce myself.
My name is Lonnie Mackley and I live in Toronto.I am originally from Seattle, Washington.I have served as a prophet, worship leader, and pastor in California.I am looking forward to getting to know you all,and fellowshipping with you through cyberspace, andespecially throughthe wonderful fellowship we have throughthe HolySpirit.

His Word is Truth, and His Spirit bonds us togetherthrough His love,

Lonnie (or just call me Lon)

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Re: [TruthTalk] Paradise

2003-06-13 Thread michael douglas

Michael D: Please permit me a few observations on this topic, gentlemen...Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Terry Clifton wrote:
To DaveH:A short time back, if I remember correctly, you said that in your opinion, people do not die and go to Heaven. I gathered from what you were saying that Paradise and Heaven were two separate places, and that Paradise was sort of a holding place for the spirits of the dead, while their bodies are waiting resurrection. DAVEH: Yes, that is close to what I was explaining before. As we know from the Bible, Jesus said he'd be with the thief in paradise on "that day", or the day they both died. Yet he did not ascend to his Father in Heaven until the 3rd day, as he explained to Mary. (Jn 20:17) If I am a little foggy on this, feel free to correct me, because at the time I simply dismissed the whole matter. In any case, you felt that no one was yet in Heaven. I bring this up again because as I was reading my Bible this morning, I noticed that Paul said in
Phil.1:23, that his desire was to depart and be with Christ. DAVEH: Correct...One would think that is the desire of all Christians. Now we know that Jesus is seated at the right hand of the Father, in Heaven, DAVEH: That may be, but it does not mean he's glued to the chair, so to speak. 1Pet 3:19 mentions that Jesus..
"By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison."
...which would indicate that he 'went' to a place where his Father was not, to preach to somebody.presumably non-believers.
Michael D: Not necessarily, Dave H. You are making the assumption that:
i) Peter is not referring to aone-time occurence
ii) These occurences happen(ed) after Jesus' ascension.
The latter assumption immediately meets with a big problem... Peter's statement in Acts 3:
20. And He shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21. Whom the heaven must retain until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.
Peter says that the heaven must retain Jesus until a certain time arrives. This tells us that after His ascension He is not going to any prison to preach to anyone. He is not leaving heaven till that time. I Thess. 4:16 describes this to us in some detail:
For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout... and the dead in Christ shall rise first...
Hebrews 1:13 further states:
But to which of the angels said He at any time, Sit on My right hand until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
The point here is that after the ascension, Jesus is presented as firmly entrenched in heaven, at the right hand of the Father (as Stephen saw Him when he was being martyred).
Do you think that 'prison' would have been heaven, Terry? I don't.
I agree with you 100% that prison would not be in heaven, and therefore must repeat that Jesus could not go/have gone to that prison since his ascension, since He is held in heaven till His enemies are made His footstool/till the times of restitution of all things spoken by all the holy prophets.
I believe after we die we await the resurrection in the spirit world, which is comprised of believers (so to speak) who are in a realm called paradise, and non believers who are in a spirit prison. There the gospel will be taught (1Pet 4:6) so that all men can face judgement on and equal basis.
and we know that Paul feels that if he dies (is executed) he will be with Jesus,
DAVEH: And that should be the desire of all Christians. However, that does not mean that it has to happen immediately.
I will have to disagree with you Dave H. Paul said he was willing to be absent from the body and be present with the Lord (II Cor 5).He also clearly stated that he wanted to depart and to be with the Lord, but for the sake of the Philippians he would stay. It was an immediate thing(Phil 1). And even if it does happen immediately, it does not necessarily have to happen in heaven.
Based on the scriptures above, it will have no alternative but to happen in heaven. Jesus is stuck there under the Father's directive until the day of His return.
As with the thief, Jesus could meet any of us in the spirit world.
so evidently there is some room for error in your premise. A little further study reveals that Paradise is in the third Heaven, which is up, not down,(2 Cor. 12:1-5).
So, looking in that direction, we find that the tree of life is in Paradise (Rev. 2:7) and we find that the tree of life is in Heaven (Rev.22:2) . To me, the obvious conclusion is that Paradise and Heaven are the same place.How 'bout them apples?DAVEH: Are "them apples" from the tree of life? VBG I believe paradise is used to symbolically denote several garden like realms where Christians exist, just as the tree of life was referred to in both the Garden of Eden and heaven..
Terry-- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain Five

Re: [TruthTalk] Prooftext

2003-06-13 Thread michael douglas

Michael D:Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

ShieldsFamily wrote: Dave H, I too believe in free agency, and therefore would not try to pressure someone into my own beliefs. I know that without the inspiration of the Holy Spirit in their lives there is NOTHING I can do to influence anyone to seek after Jesus. I do NOT believe that we are "all spiritual brothers" (scripture clearly disproves that demonic lie by stating that a very FEW are sons of God who find the path to eternal life.) However I respect everyone's deliberate CHOICE to reject the true Christ, as you unfortunately have done.DAVEH: KNOCK IT OFF, Izzy. You know I have not rejected the true Christso please do not say that again!
Michael D: If you talking about the one that's the brother of satan, who was created by the father, who was god, became a man, then became a god again... Yep, that's the wrong one, not the true, Dave H. Especially since the only way he could have become a god in the first place (acc. to LDs) was by first being a man, as his father supposedly was before he himself becoming a god, and similarly, all of those god's who succeeded his father did in their turn.
The interesting thing about all of this is that your jesus seemed to be the only one who started off as a god and became a man, or did he start as a man (as his father did), become a god (exalted is the LDS-described process), become a man again, died on the cross etc., then became a god again?
I would (and I'm sure other TTers would also) truly appreciate you clearing up that one for me, Dave H. This does NOT mean that I am eager to condemn you to hell (far from it!!!), but have resigned myself to accept your condemnation of yourself, and sadly at that. Izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dave Maybe there is a major difference between the way LDS folks practice their religion, and Protestants practice theirs. We try not to see an adversarial relationship between men and differing theologies. We view all men as being spiritual brothers who have differing paths in their journey of eternal progression. For someone to force another to walk a specific path detracts from the free agency aspect
of the plan of salvation. So I don't think it is of benefit to twist somebody's arm to make them believe like we do. IMO, it is better to let them come to that conclusion on their own.--~~~Dave Hansen[EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.langlitz.com~~~If you wish to receivethings I find interesting,I maintain Five email lists...JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS,STUFF and MOTORCYCLE.--"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.Yahoo! Plus - For a better Internet experience

Re[TruthTalk] Slithering? Hmmm.

2003-06-09 Thread michael douglas

Michael D: I find Dave H's words below to be very interesting in the light of former LDS contributor, Blainer's seeming inability to grasp the simplest of truths, while proudly declaring his teaching role in the LDS organisation. If these are the folks who educate the LDSers, then it sure places Dave H's words below in perspective. (Not that it tells something that most won't already know).Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
DAVEH: Not from you!
Duh!
DAVEH: YeahDuh! You can't even quote me correctly, so why should I think you have the truth?
This explains everything!
DAVEH: Yes it does, Izzy. You your mind is made up, so it doesn't matter what I say, you are going to interpret it incorrectly. I believe you've done the same thing with your understanding of the Bible. It gives a message, and due to your Protestant biases you've interpreted it incorrectly. So.why should I believe what you think to be "truth"!
(Excuse me for thinking otherwise!)
DAVEH: There is no excuse for deliberately misleading people about what I've said, and about what I believe, Izzy. If you are in TT to spread mistruths, then you are a part of the problem. And what is that 'problem'?..the perception that TT is a well of truth. How can that be when you have corrupted it so! No Izzy, if anything.it seems you've poisoned the well with your inaccurate portrayal of me.


From: "Michael Douglas"  
Blainer's words:

However, if she had children younger than Jesus, 
why did the Lord dedicate her to the care and keeping of John the apostle as he was being crucified. This is strong evidence??? he had no children except Jesus, which also indicates the account of her taking a vow of perpetual virginity?? was true.

Michael D: Do you now admit that This strong evidence is indeed error??? (I really want a direct answer) 
...It is amazing how folks come up with their doctrines...
I would submit, it shows great flaws in pursuing Biblical understanding... You show that you are willing to accept very spurious arguments and sources to contradict simple bible truths, reading into the scriptures things that they do not say, and things that contradict what they do say. This indeed is amazing, but unfortunately consistent with LDS practice as evidenced here on TT. 

This is where the fall back to ...as far as it is translated correctly..., and the ...parts that are left out... escape hatches holds its greatest value for those who use it. 

I observedwith some amusement as this same thing happened with your baptism argument. You said Jesus said one had to be baptized to enterthe kingdom, whenHe said no such thing. You automatically assumed that water means baptismand readily read that into the verse without giving it a second thought, the same way you read strong evidence into your assertions above. What you end up doing is that in order to make the Bible say what youwant to assert God means, is to use sources external to the Bible to assert it and as in the Mary example, above, end up contradicting the Bibleto say what you want to assert. Can you see the flaw there?

AsI have often stated on this forum, once something is established by two or three witnesses in the Bible, nothing that is contradictory to, or inconsistent with, it can ever, ever be the truth. Please see your statement below as well. Now, can we agree on that?

Blainer) The Protavangelion makes it clear that Joseph was an older 
widower, who had children before he married Mary. Naturally, they would 
have been thought of as being Jesus' brethren. This is exactly??? what the 
scriptures say--Is not he the brother of so-and-so, along with some sisters? Do you see how you come up with your representation of ...exactly... what the scriptures say? Which has been so easily refuted. Remember you say that you teach others.
If you take time to consider these things, you should be terrified at your propensity for error, and be desparate to review your entire claims to salvation and your whole basis for discerning truth. Glenn advised you to do this before. The evidence today, if you are intellectually honest, should drive you to your knees and a thorough revamping of your belief system.

Now, can we agree on that?

P.S. cf. Glens earlier post reacting to your position that so many writings are inspired, yet left out of the Bible. 
P.P.S I do hope some light breaks through to you today, Blainer. Your soul depends on it.

Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: Click Here












 
On Tue, 6 Aug 2002 19:39:21 -0400 "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
writes: 
  Blaine wrote: 
   The standard wisdom basically says Mary had children from 
   Joseph after she gave birth to the Lord. It is even in my Bible 
   Dictionary. However, if she had children younger than Jesus, 
   why did the Lord dedicate her to the care and keeping of John 
   the apostle as he was being crucified. This is strong evidence??? 
   he had no children except Jesus, which a

Re: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers

2003-03-21 Thread michael douglas


Slade Henson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:




Hello all.

I'm glad to see we have some people in the TruthTalk Email Service who are not motivated by human dogma. The concept of grace plus nothing minus nothing is a great place to start. Grace plus nothing minus nothing in terms of salvation is great. It's wonderful. It's marvelous. I cannot make this pointany CLEARER.

Rebellion against the Will of YHVH is a dangerous prospect. I submit my will to YHVH and I submit my members to the instructions he has laid down in the WHOLE BIBLE. He HIMSELF said He does not change, therefore His WILL does not change either. It was His will for the people called out by His NAME to be obedient to His words in the Old Testament, so it is His will for the people called out by His NAME to be obedient to His words in and after the New Testament. Nothing changed... only dogma.
Michael D: This is a little confusing Slade, do you care to clarify...
There is NO SUCH THING as the dispensation of grace; YHVH's grace is EVERYWHERE in the Bible. 
Two questions: 
1. What do you mean by grace here? 
2. How was that grace(if it existed)accessed in the OT, and in the NT?

Those who are so smart and so defiant and so rebellious that they "know in their heart" they can scoff at the WILL OF YHVH and blaspheme,deny the very powerwho saved their souls. Their faith is DEAD because they have no works. I pity the soul because their faith cannot save them.

Prophesies of the Millennial Kingdom speak of THE Sabbath, The Feasts, SACRIFICE!! Dispensationalism is a dead dogma that preaches a FALSE JESUS. Dispensationalism must ignore the Apostle James, the book of Romans, the words of Jesus, Moses, and the Prophets to survive.
Michael D: Slade, one wonders if glorified bodies like Jesus' which walked through walls, will ever get tired and need to rest John says that when we see Jesus we will be like Him. Paul says that we shall be changed. One wonders what would be the need of a Sabbath??? (Note, I did not say that there wouldn't be one).
-- slade

- Original Message - 
From: "Charles P. Locke" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, 21 March, 2003 12:28
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers
  From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Glenn wrote:   David, your whole comments below are built   upon a false foundation. The false foundation   is that Saturday worship is still a law.   This is a sick foundation.  The reason this is my foundation is because Jesus taught:  Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law  David, it seems you have omitted some parts of this passage that might help  understand it. Here is the preceding verse (v17), and the full version of  the one you quoted (v18):  Matt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destr
oy the law, or the prophets: I  am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.  Matt 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or  one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.  Jesus said he came to fulfil the law in 17, and then in 18 said that nothing  will pass from the law until all be fulfilled. My question is, did Jesus  fulfil the law? If he did, what does that do to the law under the new  covenant? If he did not, then what did he mean when he said he came to  fulfil?  Perry   With Yahoo! Mail you can get a bigger mailbox -- choose a size that fits your needs

Re: Possible_Spam Re: [TruthTalk] differences

2003-03-17 Thread michael douglas

Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Michael:

Sounds as though you agonized over your decision in much the same way that we did. Some in our group are still unable to break away from the institutional setting..
Michael D: It did take some adjustment as I mentioned. The thing with me though, is that I wanted to share all of the things I was learning with 'the Pastor' and have the people 'see the light'. I would try to go to prayer meetings, Bible studies etc, and the Spirit of God would expressly say to me 'No'. I often rejected that, saying that it could not be God, because I was trying to be faithful. He had to show me very dramatically, that I was being disobedient... This was less than two months into my intro to the truths about the Church. Now, God might not deal with every one in exactly the same way as with me. Mine was intense and I believe that He had a purpose for dealing with me this way.
We meet on Tuesday evening, so they can come to home church without missing the traditional Sunday morning thing. I have seen that here in my country as well.I used to meet with some folks who saw the shortcomings of the Church, and would have Sunday night meetings at an assistant Pastor's home.Eventually, nothing came of it, partly because there was no break with the traditional alliances. One thing God stresses is thatnew wine needs new wineskins. The old will burst if the new is poured intothem. Those who know have to pray for the revelations tocome to the rest of the Body. One big key to it, I believe, is the unity of the Church a la NT pattern. In fact,when the Lord brought me into this, I was not seeking it, and had already rejected it from the little exposure I had. Ido pray that God does it for many more.
Last night I painted a picture of home Church and institutional Church that was a fair comparison, but I fear it made the institutional Church look like the villan in the plot and that was not my intention. I have no doubt that it is far from what God would have the coming together of the saints be, but at the same time, He has used what He had to work with in a powerful way. I was saved in a church,I was a teacher in a church (Sunday school), and I was a deacon in a church. I was even allowed to fill the pulpit a few times when they were really desperate for a warm body. I Know that these are not bad people mocking God. They are good people (as good as people ever are) who do not know any better.
Michael D: For the most part they are. God needs voices today to call the Church out of these clutches into the liberty of the Spirit. This is not to sound arrogant or condemning of others, but a realization of where God wants to take us as the Body.

It is what we are all taught, and until you start digging for answers in God's word, you live in ignorant bliss. I think that because most of these folk are operating in ignorance, and not in deliberate disobedience, the Lord continues to bless them and use them. Because He does, missionaries are sent all over the world, and Bibles are distributed wherever they go. Amen!
People are saved that we in the home Church could never reach. I wouldn't say could never... Probably, folks need to see the need for extensive outreach to be a part of the 'Home Church' reality. Actually, I don't too like the label 'Home Church' as an identifier. It is discriptive, but could be limiting. Folks ask me if theChurch should only meet in homes, and I say notnecessarily, but in a situation where proper NT operation is not hindered. To me, the key is thefree expression of the life of theChurch. Location isonly a facilitator.
I am not at all sure that the leaders even know how far off course they are. Agreed. They have been taught to think what they think, by people with titles, who they respect. If a doctor of divinity doesn't have the right answers, they figure,who does?
Many today appreciate that a DDiv is no passport to truth, but because of tradition still interpret the things that the Bible says through the eyes those lenses, not understanding the original context within which they were presented. For instance, when Paul says the ministry gifts is for the perfecting of the saints, folks dont realize that that is supposed to occur right in the regular meeting of the church where the believers utilize their gifts and mature before the Body many times in trial and error, a la Corinthians.
I have been privileged to have a close relationship with a few pastors in my life, and sadly, some of them are more ignorant than the "Lay" people, and are determined to stay that way. Some cannot see the error, and some do not want to.It would end their employment.Because of these relationships, I can tell you that some would keep preaching if they never got a dime for their effort, and some would seek a newjob tomorrow if the paycheck stopped. Some have a calling, and some have a career.
There is no person in the world that I respect more than a street preacher, and no one I

Re: [TruthTalk] hypnotism

2003-03-11 Thread michael douglas

From: michael douglas 

To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Sunday, February 16, 2003 4:55 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] hypnotism

Michael D: 
I understand hypnosis to be a very dangerous thing. Anything that unnaturally suspends your controlover your mind exposes you to spiritual influence. People whom the Lord has led into major deliverence activities discover this phenomenon. As to the apparent absence of physical evidence of demonic possession, well, demonic influence is not always in the form of possession, it often operatesunder cover. If the Lord does not reveal it through spiritual gifts, or one is not aware of the patterns, people can remain bound for years in areas of their lives and not understand why they can't press through. 
It's interesting that Jesus said of the woman with the issue of blood was bound by satan for 18 years . I wonder how many of her contemporaries viewed her sickness as such. Just a thought. 
Having been exposed to a littleof the deliverance ministry among Christians myself, i have learned quite a few things, and have been very amazed at the things the enemy uses to get inroads into people's lives. And believe me, ignorance of his devices is not a protection. In fact the vast majority of instances where he is able to do so, those affected are not even aware of it. ihave come to understand a bitbetter why Jesus said judge not or condemn not. It's partly because folks are under bondage that they often dont know about, and are unable to overcome in their own strength. 
Anyway, I am rambling a bit here. There are many preachers talking about these things these days, and some have written books about it. From time to time I see them on Christain TV. One guy is Pastor Larry Huch(I think that isthe spelling. He used to be on TBN on Sundayevenings around 6:00pm. Don't know if he is still there. Any good book in this area is more than worth the effort. 
"Charles P. Locke" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 

Izzy,About 25 years ago I developed an interest in hypnosis. I read many books on it. I have been hypnotised and have hypnotized, and although there are some trange aspects to it, I was not convinced that it opens one up to evil spirits. I was not a believer at the time, so that aspect of it was not in the forefront of my experimentation. Neither me nor other participants ever appeared to be possessed, and none of it ever seemed "evil". I looked at it as just a strange phenomenon of the mind.I do not dabble in it any more (and haven't since about 1985). I have no reason to. In fact, when I first believed, all of my interests in that type of stuff disappeared. Once I found Christ, I no longer had any reason to seek anything else. Many other beliefs, attitudes, and interests I once held changed almost immediately, too, but that is another topic.The idea about demonic possession, I think, comes into play because many beleive that being i
n such an "altered state of consciousness" opens one up to demonic possession. It may open one up, but I think there is a lot more to it than that. I believe that one must be willing and dabbling in the occult, or inviting possession in some way in order for a possession to occur.
Michael D: Perry, I understand your position above, but one must remember that the devil is not a gentleman, and that his greatest weapon is deception and anonymity. Alot of avenues he is able to infiltrate lives through, are not directly spiritual in nature, i.e. onedoes not have to be dabbling inspiritual/occult thingsto open access to spirits. Many areas of natural breaches create open doors for the enemy's forces. Again, anything that contradicts the principles of Christor the provisions of the covenant of God are breaches in the spirit that can open lives to spiritual infiltration, particularly if it is allowed protracted presence in our lives.I played with a Ouija board, too, when I was a kid. I never saw it move on it's own, but eventually began to think it was a trick to be manipulated, so used to push it around and impress my kid friends. In fact, my original Ouija board is still at my Mother's house. I debated selling it o
n eBay, but decided not to, because that might invite someone to begin to dabble in the occult.I also had a magic 8-ball, but never ever thought it gave anything other than random answers, and viewed it as the toy it was.Hey, what were we being taught in the 60's anyway? My mother bought both of these toys for me (not at my request, but as Christmas or birthday gifts. She thought they were just toys, too, not to be taken seriously. She was a believer, and the organist at church. They just weren't talking about those things in the Methodist church in the 60's.So, my bottom line is that playing with these toys is not inherently dangerous in itself if used with skepticism. But, if one is trying to use them as devices for truly contacting spirits, they just might get what they want! In fact, a close friend of mine in college (coincid

Re: [TruthTalk] hypnotism

2003-02-19 Thread michael douglas

Michael D wrote: I understand hypnosis to be a very dangerous thing. Anything that unnaturally suspends your control over your mind exposes you to spiritual influence.
Are you sure hypnosis suspends control of your mind, or is that just the impression you get from stage hypnotists?
Michael D: I have never done a study on hypnotism, so my exposure would be from observing hypnotists on display. Material from preachers and exposure to deliverance etc. would be my source for the spiritual implications (as regards hypnotism, knowing how spirits surreptitiously infiltrate people.
Are you offering that when one is hypnotized, his conscious ability to make decisions and to determine his behaviour is not necessarily suspended? I would be interested to know.
Our ability to determine our thoughts and actions is a built in defense mechanism. On one level, Proverbs 4 says guard your heart with all diligence for out of it are the issues of life. We are to keep watch over our minds at all times, and hypnosis does not allow one to do that. Someone else is in control and he can't offer spiritual defense for us.
Are you sure it is unnatural?
I would say that sleep is a natural means of suspending control of the mind.
Or is it a natural capability that God has built into us, which, like anything, can be used for good or bad?
Good might come out of it, but do we pay a serious price for taking that path? Is it going into an area where the gifts of the Spirit should be operating?
Can Christians become possessed? I am not definitive, but I suppose it's dependent on how you define possessed. I know that Christians can have demons controlling different aspects of their lives, e.g. temper, pride, greed, fear, lust, poverty, insecurity... any thing that is contrary to the knowledge of Jesus, and who we are in Him, is the domain of the devil. I have been involved in deliverance where a spirit of stubbornness had a hold on a sister, and of course it was tough to expel. Often, personality traits are influenced by spirits. Where we yield to non-Christlike traits/patterns of behaviour, then the enemy finds a door to enter and works to build a stronghold in that area. Some of these can be overcome by our faith and authority in Christ, some through prayer and fasting, sometimes through deliverance help from other believers, o
r any combination of legitimate faith initiatives. Of course, God reserves the right to act sovereignly in response to our pleas/faith.
I was dramatically affected by deliverance myself. It changed my whole life. I couldn't believe at first that I could have evil spirits in/influencing me, but I had to acknowldge the possibility and humble myself before God and submit myself to the process. It is very humbling indeed. Failure to do this (often through ignorance in this area) is part of the reason preachers/believers fall/fail... Folks struggle for years and years and can't get the victory, or have to work real hard to keep heads above water in different areas...
From what I have come to understand now, I would say definitively that every believer needs to submit himself to the process of deliverance with someone(s) who is knowledgeable about this area. I also strongly recommend that everyone exposes himself to material from persons experienced in this are. Of course, there is room for abuse in everything, so one must trust God to be discerning.
Can hypnotized Christians become possessed? I would affirm that they can come under the influence of the enemy. To me a suspended mind is an open door...
When one practices self-hypnosis, are they giving conrol of their mind to themself? I really don't know anything about self-hypnosis but that sounds really crazy...how does it work?
Inquiring minds want to know. Perry

"Charles P. Locke" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Michael D wrote:I understand hypnosis to be a very dangerous thing. Anything that unnaturally suspends your control over your mind exposes you to spiritual influence.Are you sure hypnosis suspends control of your mind, or is that just the impression you get from stage hypnotists? Are you sure it is unnatural? Or is it a natural capability that God has built into us, which, like anything, can be used for good or bad? Can Christians become possessed? Can hypnotized Christians become possessed? When one practices self-hypnosis, are they giving conrol of their mind to themself?Inquiring minds want to know.PerryWith Yahoo! Mail you can get a bigger mailbox -- choose a size that fits your needs

Re: [TruthTalk] hypnotism

2003-02-16 Thread michael douglas

Michael D:
I understand hypnosis to be a very dangerous thing. Anything that unnaturally suspends your controlover your mind exposes you to spiritual influence. People whom the Lord has led into major deliverence activities discover this phenomenon. As to the apparent absence of physical evidence of demonic possession, well, demonic influence is not always in the form of possession, it often operatesunder cover. If the Lord does not reveal it through spiritual gifts, or one is not aware of the patterns, people can remain bound for years in areas of their lives and not understand why they can't press through.
It's interesting that Jesus said of the woman with the issue of blood was bound by satan for 18 years. I wonder how many of her contemporaries viewed her sickness as such. Just a thought.
Having been exposed to a littleof the deliverance ministry among Christians myself, i have learned quite a few things, and have been very amazed at the things the enemy uses to get inroads into people's lives. And believe me, ignorance of his devices is not a protection. In fact the vast majority of instances where he is able to do so, those affected are not even aware of it. ihave come to understand a bitbetter why Jesus said judge not or condemn not. It's partly because folks are under bondage that they often dont know about, and are unable to overcome in their own strength.
Anyway, I am rambling a bit here. There arew many preachers talking about these things these days, and some have written books about it. From time to time I see them on Christain TV. One guy is Pastor Larry Huch(I think that isthe spelling. He used to be on TBN on Sundayevenings around 6:00pm. Don't know if he is still there. Any good book in this area is more than worth the effort.
"Charles P. Locke" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Izzy,About 25 years ago I developed an interest in hypnosis. I read many books on it. I have been hypnotised and have hypnotized, and although there are some strange aspects to it, I was not convinced that it opens one up to evil spirits. I was not a believer at the time, so that aspect of it was not in the forefront of my experimentation. Neither me nor other participants ever appeared to be possessed, and none of it ever seemed "evil". I looked at it as just a strange phenomenon of the mind.I do not dabble in it any more (and haven't since about 1985). I have no reason to. In fact, when I first believed, all of my interests in that type of stuff disappeared. Once I found Christ, I no longer had any reason to seek anything else. Many other beliefs, attitudes, and interests I once held changed almost immediately, too, but that is another topic.The idea about demonic possession, I th
ink, comes into play because many beleive that being in such an "altered state of consciousness" opens one up to demonic possession. It may open one up, but I think there is a lot more to it than that. I believe that one must be willing and dabbling in the occult, or inviting possession in some way in order for a possession to occur.I played with a Ouija board, too, when I was a kid. I never saw it move on it's own, but eventually began to think it was a trick to be manipulated, so used to push it around and impress my kid friends. In fact, my original Ouija board is still at my Mother's house. I debated selling it on eBay, but decided not to, because that might invite someone to begin to dabble in the occult.I also had a magic 8-ball, but never ever thought it gave anything other than random answers, and viewed it as the toy it was.Hey, what were we being taught in the 60's anyway? My mother bought both of these toys for me (not at my request, but as Christmas
or birthday gifts. She thought they were just toys, too, not to be taken seriously. She was a believer, and the organist at church. They just weren't talking about those things in the Methodist church in the 60's.So, my bottom line is that playing with these toys is not inherently dangerous in itself if used with skepticism. But, if one is trying to use them as devices for truly contacting spirits, they just might get what they want! In fact, a close friend of mine in college (coincidentally, the son of a Lutheran minister), and an agnostic as I was in the 70's, told me a few years after college that he had transitioned from agnostic to Christian as a result of contacting spirits via the Ouija board. Not only is his story of contqacting spirits spooky, but his version of the spirit world was collaborated by a guy I heard on a radio talk show 8 years later (yet another topic for another night).Wow, not only does this bring back memories, but is almost like telling
ghost stories around the campfire (one of my designated jobs when I was a cubscout den leader..."It was a dark and stormy night...").PerryFrom: "ShieldsFamily" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Subject: [TruthTalk] hypnotismDate: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 22:52:58 -0600Here's a NEW topic: I hope

RE: [TruthTalk] For the record II

2003-02-14 Thread michael douglas

ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Michael D,

If you dont know that Gods Commandments and Gods Laws are the same thing, I cant even begin to know how to have a discussion with you about this. If the Law no longer applies to you, I am very sorry to hear that you are a lying, adultering, thieving, etc, etc, so and so! (Surely not?) Izzy

Michael D: Surely not, Izzy. The one does not necessarily imply the other.

But let me ask you a question re your concerns about the law/commandments etc. What do you understand the Holy Ghost to be saying in Acts 15 when He says re those who want the Gentiles to keep the Law,

...Don't command them to keep the law...
...I did not send these people to you with this message
...I (God) will not put any additional burden upon you...

I think this is a good way to try and make sense of this...

-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of michael douglasSent: Monday, February 10, 2003 3:04 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] For the record II

Michael D: OK.WhatI am trying to point outis that the passages quoted don't mention the law. Commandments are anything God tells us to do or not to do. They are not restricted to what was in the law.
Also, commandments in the OT don't necessarily equate to commandments in the NT. Most people accept that,because they don't do alot of stuff that was done under the law. Can you relate to that difference?
It is important to understand that Paul says in Galatians 3 that the law was added because of transgression, till Jesus should come. (That tells me that since I am in Christ, the law does not apply to me).
It sets a very definitive time span for the law. That's why the Holy Ghost said, ...don't require it of the Gentiles.
I encourage you to read Acts 15 and Galatians 3, to see that I am not making this stuff up. If you can read the whole of Galatians even better.
Rom 3:19. Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Rom 6:14. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for you are not under law, but under grace.
Please realize that the law doen not speak to those who are under grace.
Again, that's why the Holy Ghost said not to bother the Gentiles with the law.
ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Michael D, I have no idea what you are talking about. Izzy

It should not surprise us that obedience to Gods law is a major part of loving Him. After all, Jesus said, Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. ~ Jerry Bridges in Discipline of Grace

-Original Message-
Well, alll of the scriptures below, tell us to obey God's commandments, but none tell us about the law. Can you see that? If we say they speak about the law, then we are reading something into them that is not there. Can we agree on that?
Even if they were to mean the law, we could not determine that from the literal scriptures quoted, can you see that?

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RE: [TruthTalk] For the Record II

2003-02-10 Thread michael douglas

ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

What do you mean by required? If you mean Will you go to hell if you dont?, the answer is not any more than if you violate any other Commandment.

Do you mean, Does God want you to do this?the answer is yes, if the 4th Commandment still means anything at all today (as He never rescinded it; nor the others).

Michael D: That's if you listen to Marlin and Chris, not if you listen to Paul and the other apostles and the Church at Jerusalem. I encourage you Izzy to read Acts 15 carefully, without the Chris et al spin. Read what Peter and James say, plese. It is so clear if we were to take God at His word, and not peoples superimposed interpretation of it.

When James says that the Holy Ghost said not to put the law on the Gentiles, would you say that the law is synonymous with circumcision, or that the law refers to the requirements of all that God commanded under the Old covenant?

Observe closely, that the Pharisees in Acts 15, requiores them to be circumcised, and to keep the law of Moses, so the whole law was in focus here. Those who want to limit the discussion to circumcision, are not reading the text carefully, truly blinded, or are being intellectually dishonest. That's why James said that those who were requiring the law for the Gentiles, had no such commandment from the apostles and elders at Jerusalem. And the Holy Ghost forbad it.

Those who say it's for young believers, are reading things into the passage that aren't there. I challenge anyone to show me scriptural reference where there is an instruction to put the Gentiles under the law when they are mature in the Lord, or after some time of walking with Jesus.

Remember, Paul said the law was given till the seed (Jesus) should come, and that now that we have come to Jesus, we are no longer under a school master.
Paul said, Cast out the bond woman and her son. How much plainer must God make the scriptures for us. We must reconcile our beliefs to the scripture, and not the scripture to our beliefs. Doing the latter is what is causing Marlin, Chris et al, to come up with so many spurious attempts at explanations for the obvious statements of the scripture.

The issue that they, and you, need to face, is if the law is ended at Jesus, what do we do with the need for obedience? (Remember, Paul said it was not made for a righteous man) The answer is simple, righteousness is now revealed by fatit which worketh by love. See it in Galatians 5. It's all that is required. Paul said, if we walk in love joy peace etc (the fruits of the Spirit) then against such there is no law.

Do you mean, Will you be blessed for being obedient on this?the answer is yes. And all these blessings shall come upon you and overtake you, if you will obey the Lord your God. (Deut. 28:2)

Paul says you're free to keep the sabbath if you wish or not to if you don't wish. You receive no special blessing above a believer who does not.

Izzy
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