Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools
--- On Sat, 18/2/12, Symeon Breen syme...@gmail.com wrote: I seriously believe most MV people are not programming in ED on telnet (or ssh) and that they are using some form of GUI editor. With respect, I disagree. I work alongside dozens of UniVerse developers and I am in a very small minority who use a GUI based editor. The vast majority use our own custom editor, which runs on a ubiquitous 'green-screen' terminal emulator. Even those like myself who favour editing in a GUI still do all other tasks through command line. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools
Long live telnetwe use a full screen editor for Universe, written in house of course, being used by about 80 developers as I type. Les Sherlock Hewkin Senior Project Manager Finance Systems, I.T. Department T 01604 592289, M 07917 856195 -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Richard Sent: 20 February 2012 13:41 To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools --- On Sat, 18/2/12, Symeon Breen syme...@gmail.com wrote: I seriously believe most MV people are not programming in ED on telnet (or ssh) and that they are using some form of GUI editor. With respect, I disagree. I work alongside dozens of UniVerse developers and I am in a very small minority who use a GUI based editor. The vast majority use our own custom editor, which runs on a ubiquitous 'green-screen' terminal emulator. Even those like myself who favour editing in a GUI still do all other tasks through command line. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users html head meta http-equiv=Content-type content=text/html; charset=UTF-8 /head body P style=MARGIN-TOP: 0pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0ptSPAN style=FONT-SIZE: 8.2pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'MS Sans Serif'This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the addressee only. If you have received this message in error, you must not copy, distribute or disclose the contents; please notify the sender immediately and delete the message. /SPAN/P P style=MARGIN-TOP: 0pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0ptSPAN style=FONT-SIZE: 8.2pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'MS Sans Serif'This message is attributed to the sender and may not necessarily reflect the view of Travis Perkins plc or its subsidiaries (Travis Perkins). Agreements binding Travis Perkins may not be concluded by means of e-mail communication. /SPAN/P P style=MARGIN-TOP: 0pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0ptSPAN style=FONT-SIZE: 8.2pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'MS Sans Serif'E-mail transmissions are not secure and Travis Perkins accepts no responsibility for changes made to this message after it was sent. Whilst steps have been taken to ensure that this message is virus free, Travis Perkins accepts no liability for infection and recommends that you scan this e-mail and any attachments. /SPAN/P P style=MARGIN-TOP: 0pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0ptSPAN style=FONT-SIZE: 8.2pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'MS Sans Serif'Part of Travis Perkins plc. Registered Office: Lodge Way House, Lodge Way, Harlestone Road, Northampton, NN5 7UG. /SPAN/P /BODY /HTML ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools
Share ? -Original Message- From: Les Hewkin les.hew...@travisperkins.co.uk To: 'U2 Users List' u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Mon, Feb 20, 2012 6:04 am Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools Long live telnetwe use a full screen editor for Universe, written in house of course, being used by about 80 developers as I type. Les Sherlock Hewkin Senior Project Manager Finance Systems, I.T. Department T 01604 592289, M 07917 856195 -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Richard Sent: 20 February 2012 13:41 To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools --- On Sat, 18/2/12, Symeon Breen syme...@gmail.com wrote: I seriously believe most MV people are not programming in ED on telnet (or ssh) and that they are using some form of GUI editor. With respect, I disagree. I work alongside dozens of UniVerse developers and I am in a very small minority who use a GUI based editor. The vast majority use our own custom editor, which runs on a ubiquitous 'green-screen' terminal emulator. Even those like myself who favour editing in a GUI still do all other tasks through command line. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users html head meta http-equiv=Content-type content=text/html; charset=UTF-8 /head body P style=MARGIN-TOP: 0pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0ptSPAN style=FONT-SIZE: 8.2pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'MS Sans Serif'This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the addressee only. If you have received this message in error, you must not copy, distribute or disclose the contents; please notify the sender immediately and delete the message. /SPAN/P P style=MARGIN-TOP: 0pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0ptSPAN style=FONT-SIZE: 8.2pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'MS Sans Serif'This message is attributed to the sender and may not necessarily reflect the view of Travis Perkins plc or its subsidiaries (Travis Perkins). Agreements binding Travis Perkins may not be concluded by means of e-mail communication. /SPAN/P P style=MARGIN-TOP: 0pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0ptSPAN style=FONT-SIZE: 8.2pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'MS Sans Serif'E-mail transmissions are not secure and Travis Perkins accepts no responsibility for changes made to this message after it was sent. Whilst steps have been taken to ensure that this message is virus free, Travis Perkins accepts no liability for infection and recommends that you scan this e-mail and any attachments. /SPAN/P P style=MARGIN-TOP: 0pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0ptSPAN style=FONT-SIZE: 8.2pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'MS Sans Serif'Part of Travis Perkins plc. Registered Office: Lodge Way House, Lodge Way, Harlestone Road, Northampton, NN5 7UG. /SPAN/P /BODY /HTML ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools
Share ? Accuterm Wed would be alternative. Good price great service. George -Original Message- From: Wjhonson Sent: Monday, February 20, 2012 1:15 PM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools Share ? -Original Message- From: Les Hewkin les.hew...@travisperkins.co.uk To: 'U2 Users List' u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Mon, Feb 20, 2012 6:04 am Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools Long live telnetwe use a full screen editor for Universe, written in house of course, being used by about 80 developers as I type. Les Sherlock Hewkin Senior Project Manager Finance Systems, I.T. Department T 01604 592289, M 07917 856195 -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Richard Sent: 20 February 2012 13:41 To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools --- On Sat, 18/2/12, Symeon Breen syme...@gmail.com wrote: I seriously believe most MV people are not programming in ED on telnet (or ssh) and that they are using some form of GUI editor. With respect, I disagree. I work alongside dozens of UniVerse developers and I am in a very small minority who use a GUI based editor. The vast majority use our own custom editor, which runs on a ubiquitous 'green-screen' terminal emulator. Even those like myself who favour editing in a GUI still do all other tasks through command line. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users html head meta http-equiv=Content-type content=text/html; charset=UTF-8 /head body P style=MARGIN-TOP: 0pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0ptSPAN style=FONT-SIZE: 8.2pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'MS Sans Serif'This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the addressee only. If you have received this message in error, you must not copy, distribute or disclose the contents; please notify the sender immediately and delete the message. /SPAN/P P style=MARGIN-TOP: 0pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0ptSPAN style=FONT-SIZE: 8.2pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'MS Sans Serif'This message is attributed to the sender and may not necessarily reflect the view of Travis Perkins plc or its subsidiaries (Travis Perkins). Agreements binding Travis Perkins may not be concluded by means of e-mail communication. /SPAN/P P style=MARGIN-TOP: 0pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0ptSPAN style=FONT-SIZE: 8.2pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'MS Sans Serif'E-mail transmissions are not secure and Travis Perkins accepts no responsibility for changes made to this message after it was sent. Whilst steps have been taken to ensure that this message is virus free, Travis Perkins accepts no liability for infection and recommends that you scan this e-mail and any attachments. /SPAN/P P style=MARGIN-TOP: 0pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0ptSPAN style=FONT-SIZE: 8.2pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'MS Sans Serif'Part of Travis Perkins plc. Registered Office: Lodge Way House, Lodge Way, Harlestone Road, Northampton, NN5 7UG. /SPAN/P /BODY /HTML ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools
WED is not an inplace full screen editor. It's merely a hyped up Notepad. Not the same thing. You cannot use WED to say Oh by the way, go grab the cross reference files and show me every OTHER program that also reads the customer file. You could however do that, with an inplace full screen editor -Original Message- From: George R Smith geo...@grsmith.arcoxmail.com To: u2-users u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Mon, Feb 20, 2012 11:43 am Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools Share ? Accuterm Wed would be alternative. Good price great service. George -Original Message- From: Wjhonson Sent: Monday, February 20, 2012 1:15 PM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools Share ? -Original Message- From: Les Hewkin les.hew...@travisperkins.co.uk To: 'U2 Users List' u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Mon, Feb 20, 2012 6:04 am Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools Long live telnetwe use a full screen editor for Universe, written in house of course, being used by about 80 developers as I type. Les Sherlock Hewkin Senior Project Manager Finance Systems, I.T. Department T 01604 592289, M 07917 856195 -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Richard Sent: 20 February 2012 13:41 To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools --- On Sat, 18/2/12, Symeon Breen syme...@gmail.com wrote: I seriously believe most MV people are not programming in ED on telnet (or ssh) and that they are using some form of GUI editor. With respect, I disagree. I work alongside dozens of UniVerse developers and I am in a very small minority who use a GUI based editor. The vast majority use our own custom editor, which runs on a ubiquitous 'green-screen' terminal emulator. Even those like myself who favour editing in a GUI still do all other tasks through command line. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users html head meta http-equiv=Content-type content=text/html; charset=UTF-8 /head body P style=MARGIN-TOP: 0pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0ptSPAN style=FONT-SIZE: 8.2pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'MS Sans Serif'This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the addressee only. If you have received this message in error, you must not copy, distribute or disclose the contents; please notify the sender immediately and delete the message. /SPAN/P P style=MARGIN-TOP: 0pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0ptSPAN style=FONT-SIZE: 8.2pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'MS Sans Serif'This message is attributed to the sender and may not necessarily reflect the view of Travis Perkins plc or its subsidiaries (Travis Perkins). Agreements binding Travis Perkins may not be concluded by means of e-mail communication. /SPAN/P P style=MARGIN-TOP: 0pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0ptSPAN style=FONT-SIZE: 8.2pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'MS Sans Serif'E-mail transmissions are not secure and Travis Perkins accepts no responsibility for changes made to this message after it was sent. Whilst steps have been taken to ensure that this message is virus free, Travis Perkins accepts no liability for infection and recommends that you scan this e-mail and any attachments. /SPAN/P P style=MARGIN-TOP: 0pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0ptSPAN style=FONT-SIZE: 8.2pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'MS Sans Serif'Part of Travis Perkins plc. Registered Office: Lodge Way House, Lodge Way, Harlestone Road, Northampton, NN5 7UG. /SPAN/P /BODY /HTML ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools
Only know do I understand. Thanks George -Original Message- From: Wjhonson Sent: Monday, February 20, 2012 1:47 PM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools WED is not an inplace full screen editor. It's merely a hyped up Notepad. Not the same thing. You cannot use WED to say Oh by the way, go grab the cross reference files and show me every OTHER program that also reads the customer file. You could however do that, with an inplace full screen editor -Original Message- From: George R Smith geo...@grsmith.arcoxmail.com To: u2-users u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Mon, Feb 20, 2012 11:43 am Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools Share ? Accuterm Wed would be alternative. Good price great service. George -Original Message- From: Wjhonson Sent: Monday, February 20, 2012 1:15 PM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools Share ? -Original Message- From: Les Hewkin les.hew...@travisperkins.co.uk To: 'U2 Users List' u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Mon, Feb 20, 2012 6:04 am Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools Long live telnetwe use a full screen editor for Universe, written in house of course, being used by about 80 developers as I type. Les Sherlock Hewkin Senior Project Manager Finance Systems, I.T. Department T 01604 592289, M 07917 856195 -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Richard Sent: 20 February 2012 13:41 To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools --- On Sat, 18/2/12, Symeon Breen syme...@gmail.com wrote: I seriously believe most MV people are not programming in ED on telnet (or ssh) and that they are using some form of GUI editor. With respect, I disagree. I work alongside dozens of UniVerse developers and I am in a very small minority who use a GUI based editor. The vast majority use our own custom editor, which runs on a ubiquitous 'green-screen' terminal emulator. Even those like myself who favour editing in a GUI still do all other tasks through command line. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users html head meta http-equiv=Content-type content=text/html; charset=UTF-8 /head body P style=MARGIN-TOP: 0pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0ptSPAN style=FONT-SIZE: 8.2pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'MS Sans Serif'This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the addressee only. If you have received this message in error, you must not copy, distribute or disclose the contents; please notify the sender immediately and delete the message. /SPAN/P P style=MARGIN-TOP: 0pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0ptSPAN style=FONT-SIZE: 8.2pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'MS Sans Serif'This message is attributed to the sender and may not necessarily reflect the view of Travis Perkins plc or its subsidiaries (Travis Perkins). Agreements binding Travis Perkins may not be concluded by means of e-mail communication. /SPAN/P P style=MARGIN-TOP: 0pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0ptSPAN style=FONT-SIZE: 8.2pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'MS Sans Serif'E-mail transmissions are not secure and Travis Perkins accepts no responsibility for changes made to this message after it was sent. Whilst steps have been taken to ensure that this message is virus free, Travis Perkins accepts no liability for infection and recommends that you scan this e-mail and any attachments. /SPAN/P P style=MARGIN-TOP: 0pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0ptSPAN style=FONT-SIZE: 8.2pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'MS Sans Serif'Part of Travis Perkins plc. Registered Office: Lodge Way House, Lodge Way, Harlestone Road, Northampton, NN5 7UG. /SPAN/P /BODY /HTML ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools - dictionaries
Same here -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Ed Clark Sent: 19 February 2012 00:43 To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools - dictionaries honestly I don't do a lot of dictionary maintenance. I have each attribute defined, and translates to define inter-file associations, but If I need a different width/format/heading or unique expression for a query I use the FMT/CONV/EVAL keywords and create them on the fly. On Feb 18, 2012, at 4:53 PM, Boydell, Stuart wrote: Quick pop quiz. How do people build and maintain dictionaries? I have used Doug's XLr8 tool, SB+ and ED. I haven't found one that allows the use of standard revision control systems (meaning anything appearing in Wikipedia's list of revision control systems) out of the box, though Doug's may get there. (interested too, who does use SCM (including SJ+) for their dicts and file creation scripts and other admin artifacts? Of the three I like using the Xlr8/Eclipse GUI and grid makes for (IMHO) clean, consistent dicts and very easy to look at as opposed to LIST.DICT which in it's original form has to be one of THE most archaic features of the environment. Especially in a 25 x 80 green screen. Stuart. From: Symeon Breen Sent: 18-Feb-12 21:15 To: 'U2 Users List' Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools I seriously believe most MV people are not programming in ED on telnet (or ssh) and that they are using some form of GUI editor. Personally I know a lot of programmers in multiple disciplines - nearly all of them have eclipse installed, not one of them uses it as an ide. There are so many much much better environments for java or .net, or php etc. The BDT is eclipse based and that is a throwback to the IBM days. Please people look beyond eclipse there is a much bigger wider (and easier) world out there. -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Doug Averch Sent: 18 February 2012 02:48 To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools Whether we are talking about Telnet that uses port 23 or UniObjects that uses or 31438 or HTTP that uses 80, it not the port that is the problem. It is not the way packets are transported or what overhead each different protocol has. The fact remains for me it is the presentation. Why do you think the new Metro interface from Microsoft is used ...in order to create a unified and distinctive look across it consumer product and services. It is the presentation that catches our eye. When you are programming with the Telnet interface screen running behind whatever you are using for an editor, then you will catch someone's eye but not in good way. You can couch it with this runs faster, or you are more productive, or it's simple to use: it does not really matter. They have seen that editor does not that elegance. When I fire up Eclipse they notice I have a real workbench with menu bars, tool bars, different perspectives, views, and status bars. My screen looks like a real editor because it is a real editor that Java developers, PHP developer, C developers, C++ developers, and now U2 programmers use. I have built in Search. I have built in Version control. I have built in the ability to have two different accounts open. I have the ability see my variables and internal subroutines. I can close those subroutines by click on the minus and opening up with a plus. I can double click on a variable and see on the ruler bar where it is used throughout the program. The least understood feature I cannot live without anymore is continuous compile. I no longer wait to compile my program to see what typos I make, Universe and Unidata compiler are telling me while I type. If fail to assign a value to a variable, I know as I'm typing. This alone is worth the price of admission. That perception is what I've been preaching about for years. It can impact you as the developer or it can impact the entire organization. Regards, Doug www.u2logic.com/tools.htmlhttp://www.u2logic.com/tools.html XLr8Editor for Universe and Unidata ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.comhttp://www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1424 / Virus Database: 2112/4815 - Release Date: 02/17/12 ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools - dictionaries
I have a simple program that builds them from a script. THat way the scripts form part of the system definition and get version managed like the rest .. As far as I'm concerned dictionaries should be treated like source code. Brian Sent from my iPad On 18 Feb 2012, at 21:53, Boydell, Stuart stuart.boyd...@spotless.com.au wrote: Quick pop quiz. How do people build and maintain dictionaries? I have used Doug's XLr8 tool, SB+ and ED. I haven't found one that allows the use of standard revision control systems (meaning anything appearing in Wikipedia's list of revision control systems) out of the box, though Doug's may get there. (interested too, who does use SCM (including SJ+) for their dicts and file creation scripts and other admin artifacts? Of the three I like using the Xlr8/Eclipse GUI and grid makes for (IMHO) clean, consistent dicts and very easy to look at as opposed to LIST.DICT which in it's original form has to be one of THE most archaic features of the environment. Especially in a 25 x 80 green screen. Stuart. From: Symeon Breen Sent: 18-Feb-12 21:15 To: 'U2 Users List' Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools I seriously believe most MV people are not programming in ED on telnet (or ssh) and that they are using some form of GUI editor. Personally I know a lot of programmers in multiple disciplines - nearly all of them have eclipse installed, not one of them uses it as an ide. There are so many much much better environments for java or .net, or php etc. The BDT is eclipse based and that is a throwback to the IBM days. Please people look beyond eclipse there is a much bigger wider (and easier) world out there. -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Doug Averch Sent: 18 February 2012 02:48 To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools Whether we are talking about Telnet that uses port 23 or UniObjects that uses or 31438 or HTTP that uses 80, it not the port that is the problem. It is not the way packets are transported or what overhead each different protocol has. The fact remains for me it is the presentation. Why do you think the new Metro interface from Microsoft is used ...in order to create a unified and distinctive look across it consumer product and services. It is the presentation that catches our eye. When you are programming with the Telnet interface screen running behind whatever you are using for an editor, then you will catch someone's eye but not in good way. You can couch it with this runs faster, or you are more productive, or it's simple to use: it does not really matter. They have seen that editor does not that elegance. When I fire up Eclipse they notice I have a real workbench with menu bars, tool bars, different perspectives, views, and status bars. My screen looks like a real editor because it is a real editor that Java developers, PHP developer, C developers, C++ developers, and now U2 programmers use. I have built in Search. I have built in Version control. I have built in the ability to have two different accounts open. I have the ability see my variables and internal subroutines. I can close those subroutines by click on the minus and opening up with a plus. I can double click on a variable and see on the ruler bar where it is used throughout the program. The least understood feature I cannot live without anymore is continuous compile. I no longer wait to compile my program to see what typos I make, Universe and Unidata compiler are telling me while I type. If fail to assign a value to a variable, I know as I'm typing. This alone is worth the price of admission. That perception is what I've been preaching about for years. It can impact you as the developer or it can impact the entire organization. Regards, Doug www.u2logic.com/tools.htmlhttp://www.u2logic.com/tools.html XLr8Editor for Universe and Unidata ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.comhttp://www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1424 / Virus Database: 2112/4815 - Release Date: 02/17/12 ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools - dictionaries
[ad] Our product XLr8Editor supports version control for dictionaries as well as programs, procs, VOC items, etc. We have been doing this for some time now. I would be happy to give a webinar this week on it if there is some interest on version control. Regards, Doug www.u2logic.com XLr8Editor still $49.00 with updates every 3 to 4 weeks [/ad] On Sun, Feb 19, 2012 at 7:36 AM, Brian Leach br...@brianleach.co.uk wrote: I have a simple program that builds them from a script. THat way the scripts form part of the system definition and get version managed like the rest .. As far as I'm concerned dictionaries should be treated like source code. Brian Sent from my iPad On 18 Feb 2012, at 21:53, Boydell, Stuart stuart.boyd...@spotless.com.au wrote: Quick pop quiz. How do people build and maintain dictionaries? I have used Doug's XLr8 tool, SB+ and ED. I haven't found one that allows the use of standard revision control systems (meaning anything appearing in Wikipedia's list of revision control systems) out of the box, though Doug's may get there. (interested too, who does use SCM (including SJ+) for their dicts and file creation scripts and other admin artifacts? Of the three I like using the Xlr8/Eclipse GUI and grid makes for (IMHO) clean, consistent dicts and very easy to look at as opposed to LIST.DICT which in it's original form has to be one of THE most archaic features of the environment. Especially in a 25 x 80 green screen. Stuart. From: Symeon Breen Sent: 18-Feb-12 21:15 To: 'U2 Users List' Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools I seriously believe most MV people are not programming in ED on telnet (or ssh) and that they are using some form of GUI editor. Personally I know a lot of programmers in multiple disciplines - nearly all of them have eclipse installed, not one of them uses it as an ide. There are so many much much better environments for java or .net, or php etc. The BDT is eclipse based and that is a throwback to the IBM days. Please people look beyond eclipse there is a much bigger wider (and easier) world out there. -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Doug Averch Sent: 18 February 2012 02:48 To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools Whether we are talking about Telnet that uses port 23 or UniObjects that uses or 31438 or HTTP that uses 80, it not the port that is the problem. It is not the way packets are transported or what overhead each different protocol has. The fact remains for me it is the presentation. Why do you think the new Metro interface from Microsoft is used ...in order to create a unified and distinctive look across it consumer product and services. It is the presentation that catches our eye. When you are programming with the Telnet interface screen running behind whatever you are using for an editor, then you will catch someone's eye but not in good way. You can couch it with this runs faster, or you are more productive, or it's simple to use: it does not really matter. They have seen that editor does not that elegance. When I fire up Eclipse they notice I have a real workbench with menu bars, tool bars, different perspectives, views, and status bars. My screen looks like a real editor because it is a real editor that Java developers, PHP developer, C developers, C++ developers, and now U2 programmers use. I have built in Search. I have built in Version control. I have built in the ability to have two different accounts open. I have the ability see my variables and internal subroutines. I can close those subroutines by click on the minus and opening up with a plus. I can double click on a variable and see on the ruler bar where it is used throughout the program. The least understood feature I cannot live without anymore is continuous compile. I no longer wait to compile my program to see what typos I make, Universe and Unidata compiler are telling me while I type. If fail to assign a value to a variable, I know as I'm typing. This alone is worth the price of admission. That perception is what I've been preaching about for years. It can impact you as the developer or it can impact the entire organization. Regards, Doug www.u2logic.com/tools.htmlhttp://www.u2logic.com/tools.html XLr8Editor for Universe and Unidata ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.comhttp://www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1424 / Virus Database: 2112/4815 - Release Date: 02/17/12
Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools
I seriously believe most MV people are not programming in ED on telnet (or ssh) and that they are using some form of GUI editor. Personally I know a lot of programmers in multiple disciplines - nearly all of them have eclipse installed, not one of them uses it as an ide. There are so many much much better environments for java or .net, or php etc. The BDT is eclipse based and that is a throwback to the IBM days. Please people look beyond eclipse there is a much bigger wider (and easier) world out there. -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Doug Averch Sent: 18 February 2012 02:48 To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools Whether we are talking about Telnet that uses port 23 or UniObjects that uses or 31438 or HTTP that uses 80, it not the port that is the problem. It is not the way packets are transported or what overhead each different protocol has. The fact remains for me it is the presentation. Why do you think the new Metro interface from Microsoft is used ...in order to create a unified and distinctive look across it consumer product and services. It is the presentation that catches our eye. When you are programming with the Telnet interface screen running behind whatever you are using for an editor, then you will catch someone's eye but not in good way. You can couch it with this runs faster, or you are more productive, or it's simple to use: it does not really matter. They have seen that editor does not that elegance. When I fire up Eclipse they notice I have a real workbench with menu bars, tool bars, different perspectives, views, and status bars. My screen looks like a real editor because it is a real editor that Java developers, PHP developer, C developers, C++ developers, and now U2 programmers use. I have built in Search. I have built in Version control. I have built in the ability to have two different accounts open. I have the ability see my variables and internal subroutines. I can close those subroutines by click on the minus and opening up with a plus. I can double click on a variable and see on the ruler bar where it is used throughout the program. The least understood feature I cannot live without anymore is continuous compile. I no longer wait to compile my program to see what typos I make, Universe and Unidata compiler are telling me while I type. If fail to assign a value to a variable, I know as I'm typing. This alone is worth the price of admission. That perception is what I've been preaching about for years. It can impact you as the developer or it can impact the entire organization. Regards, Doug www.u2logic.com/tools.html XLr8Editor for Universe and Unidata ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1424 / Virus Database: 2112/4815 - Release Date: 02/17/12 ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools
Symeon: /Please people look beyond eclipse there is a much bigger wider (and easier) world out there./ Since you ask so nicely, I'll have to take a look! :-) Bill P.S. I don't much like Eclipse either; not too impressed with BDT and could never get Dougs tool to install properly. - Original Message - *From:* syme...@gmail.com *To:* 'U2 Users List' u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org *Date:* 2/18/2012 2:14 AM *Subject:* Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools I seriously believe most MV people are not programming in ED on telnet (or ssh) and that they are using some form of GUI editor. Personally I know a lot of programmers in multiple disciplines - nearly all of them have eclipse installed, not one of them uses it as an ide. There are so many much much better environments for java or .net, or php etc. The BDT is eclipse based and that is a throwback to the IBM days. Please people look beyond eclipse there is a much bigger wider (and easier) world out there. -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Doug Averch Sent: 18 February 2012 02:48 To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools Whether we are talking about Telnet that uses port 23 or UniObjects that uses or 31438 or HTTP that uses 80, it not the port that is the problem. It is not the way packets are transported or what overhead each different protocol has. The fact remains for me it is the presentation. Why do you think the new Metro interface from Microsoft is used ...in order to create a unified and distinctive look across it consumer product and services. It is the presentation that catches our eye. When you are programming with the Telnet interface screen running behind whatever you are using for an editor, then you will catch someone's eye but not in good way. You can couch it with this runs faster, or you are more productive, or it's simple to use: it does not really matter. They have seen that editor does not that elegance. When I fire up Eclipse they notice I have a real workbench with menu bars, tool bars, different perspectives, views, and status bars. My screen looks like a real editor because it is a real editor that Java developers, PHP developer, C developers, C++ developers, and now U2 programmers use. I have built in Search. I have built in Version control. I have built in the ability to have two different accounts open. I have the ability see my variables and internal subroutines. I can close those subroutines by click on the minus and opening up with a plus. I can double click on a variable and see on the ruler bar where it is used throughout the program. The least understood feature I cannot live without anymore is continuous compile. I no longer wait to compile my program to see what typos I make, Universe and Unidata compiler are telling me while I type. If fail to assign a value to a variable, I know as I'm typing. This alone is worth the price of admission. That perception is what I've been preaching about for years. It can impact you as the developer or it can impact the entire organization. Regards, Doug www.u2logic.com/tools.html XLr8Editor for Universe and Unidata ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1424 / Virus Database: 2112/4815 - Release Date: 02/17/12 ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools - dictionaries
Quick pop quiz. How do people build and maintain dictionaries? I have used Doug's XLr8 tool, SB+ and ED. I haven't found one that allows the use of standard revision control systems (meaning anything appearing in Wikipedia's list of revision control systems) out of the box, though Doug's may get there. (interested too, who does use SCM (including SJ+) for their dicts and file creation scripts and other admin artifacts? Of the three I like using the Xlr8/Eclipse GUI and grid makes for (IMHO) clean, consistent dicts and very easy to look at as opposed to LIST.DICT which in it's original form has to be one of THE most archaic features of the environment. Especially in a 25 x 80 green screen. Stuart. From: Symeon Breen Sent: 18-Feb-12 21:15 To: 'U2 Users List' Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools I seriously believe most MV people are not programming in ED on telnet (or ssh) and that they are using some form of GUI editor. Personally I know a lot of programmers in multiple disciplines - nearly all of them have eclipse installed, not one of them uses it as an ide. There are so many much much better environments for java or .net, or php etc. The BDT is eclipse based and that is a throwback to the IBM days. Please people look beyond eclipse there is a much bigger wider (and easier) world out there. -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Doug Averch Sent: 18 February 2012 02:48 To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools Whether we are talking about Telnet that uses port 23 or UniObjects that uses or 31438 or HTTP that uses 80, it not the port that is the problem. It is not the way packets are transported or what overhead each different protocol has. The fact remains for me it is the presentation. Why do you think the new Metro interface from Microsoft is used ...in order to create a unified and distinctive look across it consumer product and services. It is the presentation that catches our eye. When you are programming with the Telnet interface screen running behind whatever you are using for an editor, then you will catch someone's eye but not in good way. You can couch it with this runs faster, or you are more productive, or it's simple to use: it does not really matter. They have seen that editor does not that elegance. When I fire up Eclipse they notice I have a real workbench with menu bars, tool bars, different perspectives, views, and status bars. My screen looks like a real editor because it is a real editor that Java developers, PHP developer, C developers, C++ developers, and now U2 programmers use. I have built in Search. I have built in Version control. I have built in the ability to have two different accounts open. I have the ability see my variables and internal subroutines. I can close those subroutines by click on the minus and opening up with a plus. I can double click on a variable and see on the ruler bar where it is used throughout the program. The least understood feature I cannot live without anymore is continuous compile. I no longer wait to compile my program to see what typos I make, Universe and Unidata compiler are telling me while I type. If fail to assign a value to a variable, I know as I'm typing. This alone is worth the price of admission. That perception is what I've been preaching about for years. It can impact you as the developer or it can impact the entire organization. Regards, Doug www.u2logic.com/tools.htmlhttp://www.u2logic.com/tools.html XLr8Editor for Universe and Unidata ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.comhttp://www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1424 / Virus Database: 2112/4815 - Release Date: 02/17/12 ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools - dictionaries
honestly I don't do a lot of dictionary maintenance. I have each attribute defined, and translates to define inter-file associations, but If I need a different width/format/heading or unique expression for a query I use the FMT/CONV/EVAL keywords and create them on the fly. On Feb 18, 2012, at 4:53 PM, Boydell, Stuart wrote: Quick pop quiz. How do people build and maintain dictionaries? I have used Doug's XLr8 tool, SB+ and ED. I haven't found one that allows the use of standard revision control systems (meaning anything appearing in Wikipedia's list of revision control systems) out of the box, though Doug's may get there. (interested too, who does use SCM (including SJ+) for their dicts and file creation scripts and other admin artifacts? Of the three I like using the Xlr8/Eclipse GUI and grid makes for (IMHO) clean, consistent dicts and very easy to look at as opposed to LIST.DICT which in it's original form has to be one of THE most archaic features of the environment. Especially in a 25 x 80 green screen. Stuart. From: Symeon Breen Sent: 18-Feb-12 21:15 To: 'U2 Users List' Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools I seriously believe most MV people are not programming in ED on telnet (or ssh) and that they are using some form of GUI editor. Personally I know a lot of programmers in multiple disciplines - nearly all of them have eclipse installed, not one of them uses it as an ide. There are so many much much better environments for java or .net, or php etc. The BDT is eclipse based and that is a throwback to the IBM days. Please people look beyond eclipse there is a much bigger wider (and easier) world out there. -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Doug Averch Sent: 18 February 2012 02:48 To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools Whether we are talking about Telnet that uses port 23 or UniObjects that uses or 31438 or HTTP that uses 80, it not the port that is the problem. It is not the way packets are transported or what overhead each different protocol has. The fact remains for me it is the presentation. Why do you think the new Metro interface from Microsoft is used ...in order to create a unified and distinctive look across it consumer product and services. It is the presentation that catches our eye. When you are programming with the Telnet interface screen running behind whatever you are using for an editor, then you will catch someone's eye but not in good way. You can couch it with this runs faster, or you are more productive, or it's simple to use: it does not really matter. They have seen that editor does not that elegance. When I fire up Eclipse they notice I have a real workbench with menu bars, tool bars, different perspectives, views, and status bars. My screen looks like a real editor because it is a real editor that Java developers, PHP developer, C developers, C++ developers, and now U2 programmers use. I have built in Search. I have built in Version control. I have built in the ability to have two different accounts open. I have the ability see my variables and internal subroutines. I can close those subroutines by click on the minus and opening up with a plus. I can double click on a variable and see on the ruler bar where it is used throughout the program. The least understood feature I cannot live without anymore is continuous compile. I no longer wait to compile my program to see what typos I make, Universe and Unidata compiler are telling me while I type. If fail to assign a value to a variable, I know as I'm typing. This alone is worth the price of admission. That perception is what I've been preaching about for years. It can impact you as the developer or it can impact the entire organization. Regards, Doug www.u2logic.com/tools.htmlhttp://www.u2logic.com/tools.html XLr8Editor for Universe and Unidata ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.comhttp://www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1424 / Virus Database: 2112/4815 - Release Date: 02/17/12 ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools
actually your example is pretty easy on current windows versions. Type *.txt into the windows explorer search box, then select and delete. On the upside, when you delete the files, you know for sure what directory you are in because it's in the title bar. On the down side, your search retrieved not just the files in this directory, but in all the sub directories, which could be a plus if that's what you want, but is probably a downside because you still need to narrow the select. I used to use pick on a Stratus computer. The main OS was Stratus' VOS (based on multics, tasted a little like VMS with unix finish). All green-screen but the VOS commands were very verbose. But for every single command you could press a function key which popped up a form which contained every option/flag/default. They had put a lot of effort into making the VOS command line easy. That could probably be done for a pick command line as well (or for windows). I used to work with Motorola Codex communication equipment (multiplexed hundreds of serial connections over a t1 line so users in remote offices could green-screen into the application. The Codex itself had a serial port that you connected a terminal to to issue management commands (they added telnet later). The command set was pretty simple, but they also provided a gui. there was a pc running Windows 1 with a serial connection. The windows app gave you menus and forms, and then types commands to the control port and captured and screen-scraped (just a little) the output. The thing is, when they trained out people to use the system, they never mentioned that you could just use a terminal. The program was godawful and crashed all the time. It was completely in the way of issuing simple commands. My point is that if you know the commands then just typing them is easy, and you probably don't want a gui in the way. If you don't know them, a user interface (either gui or text) can make it easier--or just be a crutch. As for why telnet is still around--don't beat up on telnet. it's just a protocol. If you wanted to, you could write iPad apps that used telnet as a transport. you could put a beautiful gui on the front of an app running on an old pick box that can only do telnet. The real question is why is green-screen still around, and that has been argued endlessly. It's still here and a lot of people like it. On Feb 17, 2012, at 12:09 PM, Wjhonson wrote: Why is DOS still on Windows? Because there are some things you just can't do easily with windows, Just the other day I did a del *.txt pretty trivial to do at the DOS prompt. Rather more cumbersome to do in a Window click click click point, select click click select point click. -Original Message- From: George Gallen ggal...@wyanokegroup.com To: U2 Users List u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Fri, Feb 17, 2012 6:20 am Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox Why? Because it has almost no overhead, and has the most flexibility. Can the 3 year old (assuming they understood the process) select items from one ile based on selection Then pull items from another file using a related ID and save that list. Perform that again on two other files and save that list. Merge those two, and then push that list into an application that emails a file The above would take 2-3 min to do with telnet. IT would take significantly longer to do with a GUI front end. telnet is excellent for administration and development. Once you know what you ant, then you an use the GUI to setup a nice interface for those that want to point and lick. Why is DOS still on Windows? Because there are some things you just can't do asily with windows, r without writing/buying an application. George -Original Message- rom: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] n Behalf Of Doug Averch ent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 10:17 PM o: U2 Users List ubject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox hy are we using telnet in 2 as our main form of communication? In today's world a 3 year old can use an iPad to access a Universe or nidata database application. We sell an Alpaca herd management that runs n the iPad and our granddaughter used the application Who's your daddy? o find out who the alpaca's daddy is. Sorry, another digression. Regards, oug __ 2-Users mailing list 2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org ttp://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools
Ed: Just to let people know, mvNET offer telnet as one of the connection methods (I use uodotnet) but it's fine for external developers for our .NET application. Also, if I'm not mistaken, Fusionware uses telnet as their underlying connection method. Bill - Original Message - *From:* u...@edclark.net *To:* U2 Users List u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org *Date:* 2/17/2012 10:54 AM *Subject:* Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools actually your example is pretty easy on current windows versions. Type *.txt into the windows explorer search box, then select and delete. On the upside, when you delete the files, you know for sure what directory you are in because it's in the title bar. On the down side, your search retrieved not just the files in this directory, but in all the sub directories, which could be a plus if that's what you want, but is probably a downside because you still need to narrow the select. I used to use pick on a Stratus computer. The main OS was Stratus' VOS (based on multics, tasted a little like VMS with unix finish). All green-screen but the VOS commands were very verbose. But for every single command you could press a function key which popped up a form which contained every option/flag/default. They had put a lot of effort into making the VOS command line easy. That could probably be done for a pick command line as well (or for windows). I used to work with Motorola Codex communication equipment (multiplexed hundreds of serial connections over a t1 line so users in remote offices could green-screen into the application. The Codex itself had a serial port that you connected a terminal to to issue management commands (they added telnet later). The command set was pretty simple, but they also provided a gui. there was a pc running Windows 1 with a serial connection. The windows app gave you menus and forms, and then types commands to the control port and captured and screen-scraped (just a little) the output. The thing is, when they trained out people to use the system, they never mentioned that you could just use a terminal. The program was godawful and crashed all the time. It was completely in the way of issuing simple commands. My point is that if you know the commands then just typing them is easy, and you probably don't want a gui in the way. If you don't know them, a user interface (either gui or text) can make it easier--or just be a crutch. As for why telnet is still around--don't beat up on telnet. it's just a protocol. If you wanted to, you could write iPad apps that used telnet as a transport. you could put a beautiful gui on the front of an app running on an old pick box that can only do telnet. The real question is why is green-screen still around, and that has been argued endlessly. It's still here and a lot of people like it. [snipped] -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] on Behalf Of Doug Averch Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 10:17 PM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox Why are we using telnet in 2 as our main form of communication? In today's world a 3 year old can use an iPad to access a Universe or Unidata database application. We sell an Alpaca herd management that runs on the iPad and our granddaughter used the application Who's your daddy? to find out who the alpaca's daddy is. Sorry, another digression. Regards, Doug ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools
Green screen is still around because the dollar is still around. When we get to the society where you can work on what you want, and still get paid a living wage, then green screen will probably go away. Will it works don't break it Johnson -Original Message- From: Ed Clark u...@edclark.net To: U2 Users List u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Fri, Feb 17, 2012 10:55 am Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools actually your example is pretty easy on current windows versions. Type *.txt nto the windows explorer search box, then select and delete. On the upside, hen you delete the files, you know for sure what directory you are in because t's in the title bar. On the down side, your search retrieved not just the iles in this directory, but in all the sub directories, which could be a plus f that's what you want, but is probably a downside because you still need to arrow the select. I used to use pick on a Stratus computer. The main OS was Stratus' VOS (based on ultics, tasted a little like VMS with unix finish). All green-screen but the OS commands were very verbose. But for every single command you could press a unction key which popped up a form which contained every option/flag/default. hey had put a lot of effort into making the VOS command line easy. That could robably be done for a pick command line as well (or for windows). I used to work with Motorola Codex communication equipment (multiplexed hundreds f serial connections over a t1 line so users in remote offices could reen-screen into the application. The Codex itself had a serial port that you onnected a terminal to to issue management commands (they added telnet later). he command set was pretty simple, but they also provided a gui. there was a pc unning Windows 1 with a serial connection. The windows app gave you menus and orms, and then types commands to the control port and captured and creen-scraped (just a little) the output. The thing is, when they trained out eople to use the system, they never mentioned that you could just use a erminal. The program was godawful and crashed all the time. It was completely n the way of issuing simple commands. My point is that if you know the commands then just typing them is easy, and you robably don't want a gui in the way. If you don't know them, a user interface either gui or text) can make it easier--or just be a crutch. As for why telnet is still around--don't beat up on telnet. it's just a rotocol. If you wanted to, you could write iPad apps that used telnet as a ransport. you could put a beautiful gui on the front of an app running on an ld pick box that can only do telnet. The real question is why is green-screen still around, and that has been argued ndlessly. It's still here and a lot of people like it. n Feb 17, 2012, at 12:09 PM, Wjhonson wrote: Why is DOS still on Windows? Because there are some things you just can't do easily with windows, Just the other day I did a del *.txt pretty trivial to do at the DOS prompt. Rather more cumbersome to do in a indow click click click point, select click click select point click. -Original Message- From: George Gallen ggal...@wyanokegroup.com To: U2 Users List u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Fri, Feb 17, 2012 6:20 am Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox Why? Because it has almost no overhead, and has the most flexibility. Can the 3 year old (assuming they understood the process) select items from ne ile based on selection Then pull items from another file using a related ID and save that list. Perform that again on two other files and save that list. Merge those two, and then push that list into an application that emails a ile The above would take 2-3 min to do with telnet. IT would take significantly longer to do with a GUI front end. telnet is excellent for administration and development. Once you know what you ant, then you an use the GUI to setup a nice interface for those that want to point and lick. Why is DOS still on Windows? Because there are some things you just can't do asily with windows, r without writing/buying an application. George -Original Message- rom: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] n Behalf Of Doug Averch ent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 10:17 PM o: U2 Users List ubject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox hy are we using telnet in 2 as our main form of communication? In today's world a 3 year old can use an iPad to access a Universe or nidata database application. We sell an Alpaca herd management that runs n the iPad and our granddaughter used the application Who's your daddy? o find out who the alpaca's daddy is. Sorry, another digression. Regards, oug __ 2-Users mailing list 2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org ttp://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools
Actually, if you are on a newer version of windows the explorer has a search bar where you can filter on anything including extension. From there do your deletions in the current directory only -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users- boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Ed Clark Sent: Saturday, 18 February 2012 7:55 a.m. To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools actually your example is pretty easy on current windows versions. Type *.txt into the windows explorer search box, then select and delete. On the upside, when you delete the files, you know for sure what directory you are in because it's in the title bar. On the down side, your search retrieved not just the files in this directory, but in all the sub directories, which could be a plus if that's what you want, but is probably a downside because you still need to narrow the select. I used to use pick on a Stratus computer. The main OS was Stratus' VOS (based on multics, tasted a little like VMS with unix finish). All green-screen but the VOS commands were very verbose. But for every single command you could press a function key which popped up a form which contained every option/flag/default. They had put a lot of effort into making the VOS command line easy. That could probably be done for a pick command line as well (or for windows). I used to work with Motorola Codex communication equipment (multiplexed hundreds of serial connections over a t1 line so users in remote offices could green-screen into the application. The Codex itself had a serial port that you connected a terminal to to issue management commands (they added telnet later). The command set was pretty simple, but they also provided a gui. there was a pc running Windows 1 with a serial connection. The windows app gave you menus and forms, and then types commands to the control port and captured and screen-scraped (just a little) the output. The thing is, when they trained out people to use the system, they never mentioned that you could just use a terminal. The program was godawful and crashed all the time. It was completely in the way of issuing simple commands. My point is that if you know the commands then just typing them is easy, and you probably don't want a gui in the way. If you don't know them, a user interface (either gui or text) can make it easier--or just be a crutch. As for why telnet is still around--don't beat up on telnet. it's just a protocol. If you wanted to, you could write iPad apps that used telnet as a transport. you could put a beautiful gui on the front of an app running on an old pick box that can only do telnet. The real question is why is green-screen still around, and that has been argued endlessly. It's still here and a lot of people like it. On Feb 17, 2012, at 12:09 PM, Wjhonson wrote: Why is DOS still on Windows? Because there are some things you just can't do easily with windows, Just the other day I did a del *.txt pretty trivial to do at the DOS prompt. Rather more cumbersome to do in a Window click click click point, select click click select point click. -Original Message- From: George Gallen ggal...@wyanokegroup.com To: U2 Users List u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Fri, Feb 17, 2012 6:20 am Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox Why? Because it has almost no overhead, and has the most flexibility. Can the 3 year old (assuming they understood the process) select items from one ile based on selection Then pull items from another file using a related ID and save that list. Perform that again on two other files and save that list. Merge those two, and then push that list into an application that emails a file The above would take 2-3 min to do with telnet. IT would take significantly longer to do with a GUI front end. telnet is excellent for administration and development. Once you know what you ant, then you an use the GUI to setup a nice interface for those that want to point and lick. Why is DOS still on Windows? Because there are some things you just can't do asily with windows, r without writing/buying an application. George -Original Message- rom: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] n Behalf Of Doug Averch ent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 10:17 PM o: U2 Users List ubject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox hy are we using telnet in 2 as our main form of communication? In today's world a 3 year old can use an iPad to access a Universe or nidata database application. We sell an Alpaca herd management that runs n the iPad and our granddaughter used the application Who's your daddy? o find out who the alpaca's daddy is. Sorry, another digression. Regards, oug
Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools
It's still easier from DOS :) -Original Message- From: Phil Walker p...@gnosys.co.nz To: U2 Users List u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Fri, Feb 17, 2012 12:11 pm Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools Actually, if you are on a newer version of windows the explorer has a search bar here you can filter on anything including extension. From there do your eletions in the current directory only -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users- boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Ed Clark Sent: Saturday, 18 February 2012 7:55 a.m. To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools actually your example is pretty easy on current windows versions. Type *.txt into the windows explorer search box, then select and delete. On the upside, when you delete the files, you know for sure what directory you are in because it's in the title bar. On the down side, your search retrieved not just the files in this directory, but in all the sub directories, which could e a plus if that's what you want, but is probably a downside because you still need to narrow the select. I used to use pick on a Stratus computer. The main OS was Stratus' VOS (based on multics, tasted a little like VMS with unix finish). All reen-screen but the VOS commands were very verbose. But for every single command you could press a function key which popped up a form which contained every option/flag/default. They had put a lot of effort into making the VOS command line easy. That could probably be done for a pick command line as well (or for windows). I used to work with Motorola Codex communication equipment (multiplexed hundreds of serial connections over a t1 line so users in remote offices could green-screen into the application. The Codex itself had a serial port that you connected a terminal to to issue management commands (they added telnet later). The command set was pretty simple, but they also provided a gui. there was a pc running Windows 1 with a serial connection. The windows app gave you menus and forms, and then types commands to the control port and captured and screen-scraped (just a little) the output. The thing is, when they trained out people to use the system, they never mentioned that you could just use a terminal. The program was godawful and crashed all the time. It was completely in the way of issuing simple commands. My point is that if you know the commands then just typing them is easy, and you probably don't want a gui in the way. If you don't know them, a user interface (either gui or text) can make it easier--or just be a crutch. As for why telnet is still around--don't beat up on telnet. it's just a rotocol. If you wanted to, you could write iPad apps that used telnet as a transport. you could put a beautiful gui on the front of an app running on an old pick box that can only do telnet. The real question is why is green-screen still around, and that has been argued endlessly. It's still here and a lot of people like it. On Feb 17, 2012, at 12:09 PM, Wjhonson wrote: Why is DOS still on Windows? Because there are some things you just can't do easily with windows, Just the other day I did a del *.txt pretty trivial to do at the DOS prompt. Rather more cumbersome to do in a Window click click click point, select click click select point lick. -Original Message- From: George Gallen ggal...@wyanokegroup.com To: U2 Users List u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Fri, Feb 17, 2012 6:20 am Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox Why? Because it has almost no overhead, and has the most flexibility. Can the 3 year old (assuming they understood the process) select items from one ile based on selection Then pull items from another file using a related ID and save that list. Perform that again on two other files and save that list. Merge those two, and then push that list into an application that emails a file The above would take 2-3 min to do with telnet. IT would take significantly longer to do with a GUI front end. telnet is excellent for administration and development. Once you know what you ant, then you an use the GUI to setup a nice interface for those that want to point and lick. Why is DOS still on Windows? Because there are some things you just can't do asily with windows, r without writing/buying an application. George -Original Message- rom: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] n Behalf Of Doug Averch ent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 10:17 PM o: U2 Users List ubject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox hy are we using telnet in 2 as our main form of communication? In today's world a 3 year old can use an iPad to access a Universe or nidata database
Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools
Without testing...One advantage that I can think of if you use windows to do the delete is it will get Moved to the trashcan, assuming it's local to the PC, and you can always get it back. If you use dos, I don't think it goes to the trashcan. One of the features I use dos for however is to globally rename files Ren *.txt *.doc -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Phil Walker Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 3:11 PM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools Actually, if you are on a newer version of windows the explorer has a search bar where you can filter on anything including extension. From there do your deletions in the current directory only ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools
From: Bill Haskett Just to let people know, mvNET offer telnet as one of the connection methods (I use uodotnet) but it's fine for external developers for our ..NET application. Also, if I'm not mistaken, Fusionware uses telnet as their underlying connection method. (mv.NET also supports SSH) I think some people misunderstand what Telnet is. It's two things in one. Traditionally we recognize Telnet as the mechanism that displays characters on a X-by-Y screen. Telnet clients interpret specific escape sequences as screen positioning and other @(-x) features that we all know (hehe and love). The protocol is disparaged for what we see. Underneath, Telnet is a socket protcol which manages the transport of data. The above description describes the kind of data that's transported, but that same data could be transported over any protocol, even SMTP/email if you don't mind it taking a few minutes for your screen to refresh, or Usenet/NNTP if you don't mind waiting hours or days. All socket protocols wrap data in a sequence of characters, with headers describing the data and a body containing the payload itself. UniObjects uses a proprietary, undocumented protocol - for all we know it could be binary-encoded Telnet! It's ALL characters, and the ALL work pretty much the same way. Some protocols are better suited to some tasks than others. While I personally believe Telnet can be used as a reasonably fast data transport, some would argue that a 1500 character payload limit makes the protocol too chatty, feature handshaking makes the protocol too bulky, and other factors might add to making it inadequate as a modern transport. But when people are arguing against Telnet, I guarantee you they're not looking at the RFC (spec document) and talking about protocol nuances. I wish we could elevate the discussion to that level and away from gut-level telnet sux rhetoric. You can put any client, character or GUI, on any protocol. We don't disparage SMTP because of the Pine text client, because most people use a graphical e-mail client. (Completely OT but I really hate the SMTP protocol and yet we've been irrevocably bound to it for almost 30 years.) We con't disparage FTP for the text interfaces, I'd guess usage of text vs GUI FTP clients is about 50/50 as we rely on text-based FTP for many of our background transfer tasks. So we shouldn't dismiss Telnet as a transport protocol based on its completely unrelated and traditional use with terminal emulation clients. Other arguments may carry weight, not that one. T ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools
Whether we are talking about Telnet that uses port 23 or UniObjects that uses or 31438 or HTTP that uses 80, it not the port that is the problem. It is not the way packets are transported or what overhead each different protocol has. The fact remains for me it is the presentation. Why do you think the new Metro interface from Microsoft is used ...in order to create a unified and distinctive look across it consumer product and services. It is the presentation that catches our eye. When you are programming with the Telnet interface screen running behind whatever you are using for an editor, then you will catch someone's eye but not in good way. You can couch it with this runs faster, or you are more productive, or it's simple to use: it does not really matter. They have seen that editor does not that elegance. When I fire up Eclipse they notice I have a real workbench with menu bars, tool bars, different perspectives, views, and status bars. My screen looks like a real editor because it is a real editor that Java developers, PHP developer, C developers, C++ developers, and now U2 programmers use. I have built in Search. I have built in Version control. I have built in the ability to have two different accounts open. I have the ability see my variables and internal subroutines. I can close those subroutines by click on the minus and opening up with a plus. I can double click on a variable and see on the ruler bar where it is used throughout the program. The least understood feature I cannot live without anymore is continuous compile. I no longer wait to compile my program to see what typos I make, Universe and Unidata compiler are telling me while I type. If fail to assign a value to a variable, I know as I'm typing. This alone is worth the price of admission. That perception is what I've been preaching about for years. It can impact you as the developer or it can impact the entire organization. Regards, Doug www.u2logic.com/tools.html XLr8Editor for Universe and Unidata ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools
500 Megabytes and counting, so I can see where a variable is used That's a non-starter for me. -Original Message- From: Doug Averch dave...@gmail.com To: U2 Users List u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Fri, Feb 17, 2012 6:48 pm Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools Whether we are talking about Telnet that uses port 23 or UniObjects that uses or 31438 or HTTP that uses 80, it not the port that is the problem. It is not the way packets are transported or what overhead each different protocol has. The fact remains for me it is the presentation. Why do you think the new Metro interface from Microsoft is used ...in order to create a unified and distinctive look across it consumer product and services. It is the presentation that catches our eye. When you are programming with the Telnet interface screen running behind whatever you are using for an editor, then you will catch someone's eye but not in good way. You can couch it with this runs faster, or you are more productive, or it's simple to use: it does not really matter. They have seen that editor does not that elegance. When I fire up Eclipse they notice I have a real workbench with menu bars, tool bars, different perspectives, views, and status bars. My screen looks like a real editor because it is a real editor that Java developers, PHP developer, C developers, C++ developers, and now U2 programmers use. I have built in Search. I have built in Version control. I have built in the ability to have two different accounts open. I have the ability see my variables and internal subroutines. I can close those subroutines by click on the minus and opening up with a plus. I can double click on a variable and see on the ruler bar where it is used throughout the program. The least understood feature I cannot live without anymore is continuous compile. I no longer wait to compile my program to see what typos I make, Universe and Unidata compiler are telling me while I type. If fail to assign a value to a variable, I know as I'm typing. This alone is worth the price of admission. That perception is what I've been preaching about for years. It can impact you as the developer or it can impact the entire organization. Regards, Doug www.u2logic.com/tools.html XLr8Editor for Universe and Unidata ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
