RE: [U2] To Ad or Not to Ad
Amen! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Susan Joslyn Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 8:09 AM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] To Ad or Not to Ad Chuck and Tony and all, When I was a little girl I didn't wake up in my pink and white Barbie bedroom and think Gosh, I hope someday every one thinks of me as the change control and software quality geek ... sigh. It wasn't planned, but it happened. So there I am. Because I am that person, people come to me with questions about problems and even about other solutions. I'm very forthcoming about the options. I give many academic presentations to share what I have learned about software quality / control / audit that have nothing specific to do with my product. But everyone knows that I have that product and everyone knows THAT'S why I know this stuff. So - the key thing that struck a chord with me in Tony's remark is this idea that we must be careful lest we APPEAR to be interested in selling our products or services. Of course we're interested in selling our products! It's what we do! As Chuck B. says, it's important for you to know who I am. I'm sure I speak for Tony and others as well when I tell you that I am not so desperate for gigs that I have to try to TRICK people into them! Nor would I insult the very helpful and kind community of this forum by such underhanded tactics! So I think what hurts us got something to sell folks on the list about the [AD] fray is that it seems to imply that we are trying to trick or sneak our product onto someone's unsuspecting computer or budget. We don't want this list to be flooded with ads. We don't want to offend any users by appearing to pull one over on 'em. But I think that information that we know BECAUSE of what we do is a valid contribution and even if it mentions our product, our services, our experiences, is not really an AD -- is it? I don't always put the [AD] banner on my posts. I didn't put it on this one - although I do mention that I have a product and I even vaguely mention what it does. Should I have put [AD] on this post? I think our signature is the important thing in all of this. I'll make a point to include my full signature on all posts, that way there's disclosure even when it's not marked [AD]. Susan Joslyn Change control and software quality geek (er, guru) SJ+ Systems Associates, Inc. PRC(r) Real software configuration management for u2 --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. ZirMed, Inc. has strict policies regarding the content of e-mail communications, specifically Protected Health Information, any communications containing such material will be returned to the originating party with such advisement noted. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
Re: [U2] To Ad or Not to Ad
Chuck and Tony and all, When I was a little girl I didn't wake up in my pink and white Barbie bedroom and think Gosh, I hope someday every one thinks of me as the change control and software quality geek ... sigh. It wasn't planned, but it happened. So there I am. Because I am that person, people come to me with questions about problems and even about other solutions. I'm very forthcoming about the options. I give many academic presentations to share what I have learned about software quality / control / audit that have nothing specific to do with my product. But everyone knows that I have that product and everyone knows THAT'S why I know this stuff. So - the key thing that struck a chord with me in Tony's remark is this idea that we must be careful lest we APPEAR to be interested in selling our products or services. Of course we're interested in selling our products! It's what we do! As Chuck B. says, it's important for you to know who I am. I'm sure I speak for Tony and others as well when I tell you that I am not so desperate for gigs that I have to try to TRICK people into them! Nor would I insult the very helpful and kind community of this forum by such underhanded tactics! So I think what hurts us got something to sell folks on the list about the [AD] fray is that it seems to imply that we are trying to trick or sneak our product onto someone's unsuspecting computer or budget. We don't want this list to be flooded with ads. We don't want to offend any users by appearing to pull one over on 'em. But I think that information that we know BECAUSE of what we do is a valid contribution and even if it mentions our product, our services, our experiences, is not really an AD -- is it? I don't always put the [AD] banner on my posts. I didn't put it on this one - although I do mention that I have a product and I even vaguely mention what it does. Should I have put [AD] on this post? I think our signature is the important thing in all of this. I'll make a point to include my full signature on all posts, that way there's disclosure even when it's not marked [AD]. Susan Joslyn Change control and software quality geek (er, guru) SJ+ Systems Associates, Inc. PRC(r) Real software configuration management for u2 --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
Re: [U2] To Ad or Not to Ad [not-secure]
chuckle When the original Devcom team was writing INFORMATION, we didn't have job titles or business cards. This was causing one of the chaps some problems in obtaining a loan, so a couple of us had a session of composing the most inflated job descriptions possible. And a lot of people think software engineers don't have any fun... On Dec 5, 2007, at 10:17 AM, Hennessey, Mark F. wrote: Wow, Cliff - Your .SIG made me flip over to wikipedia...Maybe you should add Proud to be a Humble Man... :) --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] To Ad or Not to Ad
What is an AD? Some on this list are well associated with a particular product or service. Does that mean everything they post is an AD? Others may not be so closely identified with a particular product. If I mention a third party product with which I have no fiduciary relationship, is that an AD? On the other hand, if I recommend a product that I happen to sell, I think that pretty clearly qualifies as an AD. Here are my thoughts: Unsolicited ads for products or services should clearly be marked as such. A response to a query, which contains a reference to a product or service, from the sale of which the responder stands to benefit, should disclose that fact. A referral to a third party product or service, where there is no remuneration to the referrer is simply a referral, not an AD. Just my $.02 ($.005 after taxes) Larry Hiscock Western Computer Services --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
Re: [U2] To Ad or Not to Ad
All, This is now starting to clog up the pipe. All comments *pro and con* on list moderation continue on U2-Community. To join U2-Community, you can manage your subscriptions here: http://listserver.u2ug.org/. - Charles Barouch, Moderator U2-Users, U2-Community, SBSolutions --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
Re: [U2] To Ad or Not to Ad
Only if you sell your opinion. Then we get to invoice you for Reuse Fees. On Dec 5, 2007, at 10:26 AM, Kevin King wrote: I agree with Chuck, Brian, Clif, Susan, and anyone else who agrees with me. :-) (Hmmm, does that make this an [AD]?) --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
Re: [U2] To Ad or Not to Ad
On Dec 5, 2007 9:11 AM, Jeff Fitzgerald [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [snip] My point is that the [AD] tags don't add any value for the reader, in my opinion. The world is not so simplistic that a post can be easily classified as [AD] and I find it a bit insulting for someone else to pretend that they can add tags to something that will guide me in my interpretation. [snip] It seems to me that the only relevant [AD] tags are for job openings and product announcements. Note that both of these imply a start of thread or original post. I see no reason to preface legitimate replies with [AD] tags, even if the reply consists of only my product does that. It also seems to me that the only person on this list arguing for more [AD] tags is Charles. Does anyone else actually feel that [AD] tags help to clarify responses in any way; or that that the list has a problem with a lack disclosure of some posters' possible commercial self-interest? I move to stop the [AD] nagging. /Scott Ballinger Pareto Corporation Edmonds WA USA 206 713 6006 --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
Re: [U2] To Ad or Not to Ad
It amazes me how complicated things become when we try to play the don't upset anyone card. We're all in a business, for goodness sake, and continuing whatever it takes to make that business thrive is not only in our own personal best interest, but also the best interests of those we serve. So if that means that we have to put [AD] around everything we say, then so be it. I agree with Chuck, Brian, Clif, Susan, and anyone else who agrees with me. :-) (Hmmm, does that make this an [AD]?) --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] To Ad or Not to Ad [not-secure]
And a lot of people think software engineers don't have any fun... Everyone laughed when I said I was a software engineer, until I started driving a train on weekends. http://www.littletootrailroad.com === Norman Morgan [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.brake.com === Gotta run...the cat's caught in the printer...again. === --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] To Ad or Not to Ad
It's good to see yet another discussion of the [AD] [/AD] stuff although I'm not very optimistic that the discussion will lead to any type of change. However, I will throw in my viewpoint. As a list member I really don't get any value from the [AD] [/AD] tags. If I were bothered by posts that mentioned products I guess I could setup a mailbox rule to delete posts that were tagged with [AD]. However, if I did that I would be missing a lot of valuable information. For example, I am a software vendor -- [AD] I sell a resizing tool named FAST. [/AD] I often respond to posts that have to do with file sizing. My response might be, for instance, a two or three paragraph technical discussion of some aspect of hashing or file maintenance. It might conclude with a statement such as [AD] FAST does a good job of sizing files. [/AD] Should my post be labeled as [AD] in the subject line? Well perhaps -- it does mention the product I sell in a favorable light. But what value does the tag add? If the post is deleted due to the [AD] tag the 90% of the post which contains valuable technical information is tossed out. Or does the reader scan the post and skip the parts delimited by the [AD] [/AD] tags? My point is that the [AD] tags don't add any value for the reader, in my opinion. The world is not so simplistic that a post can be easily classified as [AD] and I find it a bit insulting for someone else to pretend that they can add tags to something that will guide me in my interpretation. Are we so stupid that we cannot properly interpret the world? Perhaps in literature we need to require the authors to tag their writing with [IRONY] [/IRONY] or [METAPHOR] [/METAPHOR] or [SIMILE] [/SIMILE] so that we can properly know how to process what we read! I submit that we are intelligent enough to survive without censorship, abridgement or other externally imposed devices to interpret the world for us. Nearing end of rant... I like Susan's idea of full disclosure via signature information. That shouldn't be a requirement but a voluntary means of increasing one's visibility when posting. In my view the [AD] tags are simply a pain in the ass and not viable. Let the reader figure out his own response -- if Fred writes, Buy my product AstroCybernetic WhizBang and make your life better! the reader can decide whether Fred is to be believed and whether the claim bears further investigation or not. Similarly, if Sally claims, The product AstroCybernetic WhizBang is a piece of sh*t! the reader can decide whether perhaps Sally has an axe to grind or is a reliable witness -- no tags of [ANTI-AD] [/ANTI-AD] are needed. But I have an idea for a really great product! Are any of you old enough to have seen the movie Tron? If so, you will remember that there were bits in the movie -- little hovering balls that floated around and could either say yes or no. So they would hover and say yes yes no yes randomly. My product will be the Auto Ad Announcer. Suppose you are in the bar at a conference and are talking with a group of other computer geeks. As the discussion progresses the Auto Ad Announcer will use heuristic programming to determine whether anyone's comments could be promoting a product. If so, the Auto Ad Announcer will loudly squawk AD! I have absolutely no doubt that this will contribute enormously to the flow and enjoyment of the conversation! Oops, wait, I forgot to tag that sentence with [SARCASM] [/SARCASM] so that you would know how to process it. End of rant... Jeff Fitzgerald Fitzgerald Long, Inc. --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] To Ad or Not to Ad
n-dimensional anomalies a specialty ROTFLOL - ROTFLOL - ROTFLOL Oh, this is genius!!! I want to steal this one ;-) On a more serious note, I think that the majority of the people on this list have come to know the other people on this list over time. It's easy to see who is expert in a specific area, who has a product or service to offer, who contributes excellent material, etc. I'm sure many of the people here read posts, regardless of the subject from certain posters and automatically discard posts from other members (again, regardless of subject). The [AD] will only protect someone that is relatively new to the list because they aren't familiar with the posters yet. Even so, they are getting some pretty useful information and as soon as they see that they need to part with $$$, that in itself puts the information they received into a new category [AD]. It's nice that we are attempting to save someone a little time here but, it isn't all that necessary. I think that the signature block is a really good idea. Otherwise, we should all put [AD] in our posts, because we are all trying to sell the benefit of the n-dimensional anomalies products. Best regards, Jim Canale [usually likes Chuck's tags, but this one from Clif gets first prize] --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] To Ad or Not to Ad
In that case, I agree with Kevin. Only if you sell your opinion. Then we get to invoice you for Reuse Fees. On Dec 5, 2007, at 10:26 AM, Kevin King wrote: I agree with Chuck, Brian, Clif, Susan, and anyone else who agrees with me. :-) (Hmmm, does that make this an [AD]?) --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ _ Your smile counts. The more smiles you share, the more we donate. Join in. www.windowslive.com/smile?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_Wave2_oprsmilewlhmtagline --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] To Ad or Not to Ad
I tend to agree with Brian. If it is an outright advertisement then mark it as an AD but if you just happen to sell a product I wouldn't expect to see an ad reference in the subject line when helping someone out. After all I don't think anyone on this list wants to see an AD reference every time Wally or Stephen helps someone out. Maybe a signature block is all that is necessary. Jerry Banker Sr Programmer Analyst Affiliated Acceptance Corp Sunrise Beach, MO 1-800-233-8483 www.affiliated.org -Original Message- From: Brian Leach [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 8:08 AM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: RE: [U2] To Ad or Not to Ad Susan What brilliant marketing there. I'm truly in awe! grin Seriously though of course, you're right. It is a difficult line... For example, someone may ask 'I need to do [blah]'. I may respond, 'Well, there is a free utility you can download from my website that does [blah]'. Now if the utility is free, and I'm answering a question, and I'm not looking to profit, I'm not marketing. But visiting the website necessarily means being confronted by other stuff that isn't free. And what about those who don't want to spend any money, don't want to see any ads, but do want free stuff? (Hey now, THAT sounds like the MV community...) So I would put my 2c on - posts that are primarily intended to be adverts for products should be so marked. Where they are primarily intended to offer assistance - like Tony's in this case - we should leave it up to the conscience of the poster. After all, having [AD] is not a slur - some people might even *miss* the advert otherwise... Brian --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] To Ad or Not to Ad
I agree with Scott . -Original Message- From: Behalf Of Scott Ballinger I move to stop the [AD] nagging. --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] To Ad or Not to Ad
My last post on this thread. Sorry for consuming techlist bandwidth - I don't subscribe to the community list, I don't have time or interest. Are we okay now? I'd hate to have even a minor problem between us. This is absolutely not a problem between us, my friend. ... I followed your link (while at a client and not able to look closely) and I swear the page it took me to seemed to be partially or totally about DesignBAIS. That was why I responded as I did. I understand entirely. At one extreme, someone will bait with information and lead to a sales pitch - that's what all of us want to avoid and the immediate impression you got. At the other extreme someone here can move helpful videos to Youtube and post helpful information here anonymously, being careful to edit out product names. This is equally unacceptable. Personally I vote for the suggestion to just post with a full signature and disclose intent where appropriate, and if anyone doesn't know where to draw their own line, a moderator can cyber-slap some common sense into them off-list. While it seems to be already decided by fellow vendors, I hope you will post a final summary of your expectations so that we know when You think we're crossing lines. Sincerely, Bugs Bunny --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] To Ad or Not to Ad [not-secure]
SNIP I think our signature is the important thing in all of this. I'll make a point to include my full signature on all posts, that way there's disclosure even when it's not marked [AD]. I think that's an excellent idea. For those of us who are primarily consultants, our product is the very advice that we offer to the list at no charge. So an argument could be made, valid IMO, that anytime we post we are advertising our product and at least as a secondary motivation, looking for leads and potential contracts. -- Clifton Oliver Database Thaumaturgist for Hire n-dimensional anomalies a specialty /SNIP Wow, Cliff - Your .SIG made me flip over to wikipedia...Maybe you should add Proud to be a Humble Man... :) --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] To Ad or Not to Ad
Tony, It does make it rather difficult when perhaps the fix to a person's problem does lie in a product that just happens to be sold by the answerer. I, personally, liked your little demo and showed it to a few people out here. Was it an ad? That's questionable because it does contain advertising material but also some good instruction. I know when someone sends a blatant ad or not so I can delete it if I wish. However, sometimes I find a little nugget of information I was looking for even in the ads. I expect them on a list like this where you have a variety of users that also build products for sale. Jerry -Original Message- From: Tony G [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 3:22 PM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: [U2] To Ad or Not to Ad From: Charles Barouch in the SOAP discussion Tony, Please use [AD] brackets [/AD] when referring to information on a product which you make or sell. Chuck - I didn't reference a product I make or sell. I pointed to my web site where someone can find helpful and context-relevant information. I believe you've made and honest error and I'm sure your eyes read UO.NET and your mind said ...(the other one) That said, this is the gorilla in the room and I'd like to discuss it. I'm getting real tired of this notion that every time a non-end-user makes a post that it's an ad, whether it says so or not. And our moderators are now jumping a little too quickly in a noble effort to keep the peace. I can self-moderate and be judicious about flagging my postings as I hope others do as well. But I'm not going to flag every post and I don't like the idea that I or anyone else here should be paranoid when carrying on a discussion because of some underlying implication that we're trying to sell something. Please keep an eye on my blog. It just occurred to me that I wrote an article on this topic a while back and never posted it. It's time. My best, Tony Gravagno Nebula Research and Development TG@ removethisNebula-RnD.com /blog --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
Re: [U2] To Ad or Not to Ad
Tony, Let me see if I can usher the gorilla out of the room. There seems to be an implication that [AD] and junk-mail are synonymous. That's not the position I am advocating. Here's how I see it: when SCIFI.com sends out an e-mail which reviews an NBC show, they acknowledge that NBC SCI FI Channel are owned by the same people. This has never made me ignore the review. Never. If you run for the U2UG board and you get a paycheck from Cache or you are the largest jBase reseller in Canada, the charter permits you to run so long as you disclose. Disclose and discredit are not the same word. If you post about McDonalds and I post about Wendys, it is appropriate for us to disclose if we are major stockholders. This is not to be little you. I sincerely hope that you know the esteem I have for you individually, and for this group collectively. I've said it before: when someone offers me a remedy for my neck pain, I'd like to know whether they are a fellow sufferer or if they are a product representative. That information gives me a perspective on their answer. The thing is, if someone offers their time and help to me on this list, I will listen to them, [AD] or not. Tony, you have specifically said that you only sell what you believe in - which means that in your case [AD] is an endorsement. It literally says that you have put your money where your mouth is and committed to the course you feel is best. If I were you, I'd wear that [AD] tag proudly. Now, for those of you I haven't bored to death at this point, let me say that in this specific case, I followed your link (while at a client and not able to look closely) and I swear the page it took me to seemed to be partially or totally about DesignBAIS. That was why I responded as I did. Are we okay now? I'd hat to have even a minor problem between us. - Chuck --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
