subject:"Re\: \[ubuntu\-studio\-devel\] Elementary OS"

>
> Many users act as if they had paid for the distro/SW/whatever and must be
> served on a 24/7 basis within seconds of saying "hello". They are not
> willing to read anything, but rather expect to talk to some real person.
> Then they expect that person to guess their setup (ESP?) and do not like to
> be told "that won't work". Many of these queries can only be answered by
> people who understand the technical side of things... and these people get
> worn out.
>
> We need tools to help ease this.
>

Right ! That is why I propose to have everything in the same place instead
of having to go on many websites.
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Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] "elementary OS" ... ONE Ubuntustudio user's thoughts ...

I don't think we need to blacklist.

Maybe we should just recommend some hardware and software that we know are
using. Less is more.


Antoine THOMAS
Tél: 0663137906

2015-09-07 20:03 GMT+02:00 Ralf Mardorf :

> What about a 2 pages on the Ubuntu Studio website. One to black and
> whitelist plugins and another to balck and whitelist hardware.
>
> Plugin name:
> Host name
> Ubuntu release:
> Package version host:
> Package version plugin:
> Description:
>
> Hardware:
> Ubuntu Release:
> Kernel version:
> Firmware version:
> Description:
>
> Without the need to have an account to post such a report.
>
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Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] "elementary OS" ... ONE Ubuntustudio user's thoughts ...

On Tue, 8 Sep 2015 10:51:46 +0200, ttoine wrote:
>I don't think we need to blacklist.
>
>Maybe we should just recommend some hardware and software that we know
>are using. Less is more.

The problem could be exotic revisions of hardware. Revision 1, 2, 3 and
4a might work, but revision 4b doesn't work for all purposes. This might
happen not that often. Right off the bat I remember a Microlink 56k
modem, a donation from a Windows user. I could use the modem for
Internet access, but for some usage it didn't work. Perhaps I couldn't
use it for fax, I don't remember, but I remember that revision 1, 2, 3
and 4 (or similar) were mentioned to work with Linux. It exposed that
revision 4 was split into an a and b version and neither Vendor nor the
Linux community cared about the chipset of this revision.

Regarding hardware recommendations it's important that we not only
mention hardware that might work for our individual usage.

My HDSPe's analog IOs can be used with long latency, but still getting
xruns, but anyway the sound quality is better than provided by most, if
not all prosumer cards. On the same machine it can be used with short
latency on a Windows install. On the Windows and a FreeBSD install
everything works, on Linux ADAT doesn't work with jackd.
Users often don't test all abilities. I for example never tested if
AES/EBU works. Another issue is what does work in wich version.

In general RME devices on other platforms support a lot of features
that aren't available for Linux.

What I absolutely can recommend is an Envy24 PCI device I own, but who
is interested in PCI devices?

Could I recommend the KORGnano KONTROL? Yesno! I own the old version.
For the old version a Linux application exists, but this app can't save
settings. AFAIK for new KORGnano KONTROLs no Linux app is available.

Blacklists are more important than Whitelists.

Often people ask for help to improve their mastering. They use all
kinds of EQ available by plugins. Excepted of Fons' parametric EQ, I
would blacklist all other Linux EQs I know, at least for audio
production. Most EQs simply don't do what they should do.

If you follow Linux audio mailing lists, you might have noticed that
each week at least one user reports a crash caused by plugins.
Since plugins are provided bundled by packages, it would be good to get
a list to

sudo rm list_of_plugins

It always takes hours, when I search a clean old school ping pong delay.
IIRC only one delay can provide it and it takes tricky settings to get
it. So even a whitelist should provide a description.

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Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Elementary OS

>
> At least what already is provided for smart phone applications
> that cost less than 10$/10€.
>

 -> you want to create a company to support a basic set of software and
plugins on Linux, for 10$/year/people ? I think we might actually find
interested people for that. But, we can't use the Ubuntu Studio name !
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Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Elementary OS

On Tue, 8 Sep 2015 10:58:17 +0200, ttoine wrote:
>>
>> At least what already is provided for smart phone applications
>> that cost less than 10$/10€.
>>
>
> -> you want to create a company to support a basic set of software and
>plugins on Linux, for 10$/year/people ? I think we might actually find
>interested people for that. But, we can't use the Ubuntu Studio name !

No, I don't want to provide anything, I only mention what users are used
to.

They read "the most flexible mixer architecture in the industry,
hundreds of plugins, and external control surfaces" and expect
improvement when they use it, compared of what they use on other
platforms, but what they actually get is an unfinished mixer, they
need to set up the mixer on their own, a DAW that crashes caused by
bad plugins, tracks that disappear during work etc..

However, the point is, that there is the need to provide something,
that doesn't exist at the moment. What's missing for Ubuntu Studio or
any other distro isn't bad PR, it's software and hardware.

For Linux a lot of software is missing. At best you can use Ardour for
hard disk recording, with a usable latency compensation, but you can't
use it as a sequencer. At best you can use Qtractor as a sequencer, but
it doesn't provide usable latency compensation for audio recordings.
Both apps provide mixers with pitfalls, and no mixer is really a mixer,
they are building blocks. At least an EQ should become default for each
track. Btw. I'm not asking audio engineers, I'm one myself: For an
averaged mixing console's channel, belongs the EQ pre or post fader?
What kind of EQ makes sense for a mixer channel? When do you need pre
and when do you need post aux?

I know the answers, I'm an engineer. Does a musician know the answer
too?

There are professional standards, nobody needs the "the most flexible
mixer", users expect a standard mixer.

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Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Elementary OS

On Tue, 8 Sep 2015 21:50:28 +0200, Jimmy Sjölund wrote:
>So, who or how to decide what is good enough? There is no distinct  
>definition for that.

Would you add something that could be the tone control of a hifi amp
into a mixer channel for audio production?

I would use Fons' parametric EQ for the mixer channels, but avoid
DJ EQ. I won't sort out DJ EQ, but while Fons' EQ should be a
dependency of a meta-package "pro-audio", DJ EQ should belong to a
meta-package "audio". Some EQs likely would fail measurements. I can't
do measurements, but I suspect we hear when EQs behave unexpected when
mixing. I wouldn't sort them out, as long as they don't do something
harmful as making a host crash, but I would sort them to a meta-package
"audio" instead of "pro-audio". Perhaps the plugins that belong to
different meta-packages should be installed to different paths, so that
a user could install all packages, but by selecting the path decide if
they show up in a host. I fear that some packages already bundle useful
and crappy plugins, so assigning packages to meta-packages might not be
enough. Some packages perhaps need to be split into "good" and "bad"
plugins.

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Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Elementary OS

2015-09-08 Thread Jimmy Sjölund

On Tue, Sep 8, 2015 at 4:59 PM, Ralf Mardorf 
wrote:

> On Tue, 8 Sep 2015 15:45:41 +0200, ttoine wrote:
> >So, really, I think instead trying to support everything, package
> >everything, we should focus on what we know is working. And maintain
> >it, make it clear that Ubuntu Studio is now focused to make things
> >working.
>
> Ok, here we agree. For plugins it's not only to consider to sort out
> bad ones, but also to separate plugins usable for production, from those
> who are ok, but not good for audio production.
>
> So, who or how to decide what is good enough? There is no distinct
definition for that.
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Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Elementary OS

>
> However, the point is, that there is the need to provide something,
> that doesn't exist at the moment. What's missing for Ubuntu Studio or
> any other distro isn't bad PR, it's software and hardware.
>

That is totally the puropose of this thread, Ralf. We need to answer what
is available, and with our knowledge (we have a lot of experience and
knowledge).

In term of free software, yes, the offer is poor. But some great stuff are
available:
 - Ardour
 - LMMS (equivalent of Fruity loops, not of Ableton Live)
 - Qtractor
 - Kdenlive
 - Cinerella
 - Blender
 - Gimp
 - Inkscape
 - Scribus
 - Some plugins are very good, some bad, let's highlight the good ones.
Most of people have a lot of free and cracked plugins, but actually are
using only a few ones. And even on Windows and Mac, plugins can make a
sequencer crash, they are used to it.
 - Do someone know if we could package and distribute Open AV apps ?

Those are not finished products, they are open source projects. However, it
is possible to achieve the creation of great content when you know how to
use them. Some projects at the moment are focused on using 100% free
software to achieve a motion picture + soundtrack. Blender Velvets plugins
come from this king of project.

On the non free software side, there are:
 - Mixbus
 - Lightworks
 - Bitwig (equivalent of Live, made by former Ableton employees)
 - Many people own licenses, and have hardware for that. We need to attract
them with a simple and stable system. With a place where they can find
documentation and support.
 - Let's highlight them !

To have spent time in studios and working on a regular basis with sound
engineers, I saw Pro-Tools or Logic crash in record sessions or in live
performance, because of plugins or because people misuse them. At my work,
we have a lot of issues with the latest Mac osX release in term of
stability. No system has no bug/failure.

Nowadays, with the great work achieved around Ubuntu Server, now leader in
the server world, the stability is good and reknown.

Remember that if many multimedia workstations ran on Unix in the past (e.g:
Silicon Graphics O²) had the same hardware than a Unix server, but with a
sound card and a graphic card.

So, really, I think instead trying to support everything, package
everything, we should focus on what we know is working. And maintain it,
make it clear that Ubuntu Studio is now focused to make things working.

Even if we propose a very restricted list of working hardware, it is better
than nothing. And we can also add a disclaimer "try before you buy".

Again please have a look at the Elementary OS website: simple, with a few
doc, including a list of office applications, a dedicated Stackexchange for
support.
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Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] "elementary OS" ... ONE Ubuntustudio user's thoughts ...

> It always takes hours, when I search a clean old school ping pong delay.
> IIRC only one delay can provide it and it takes tricky settings to get
> it. So even a whitelist should provide a description.
>
> That is why having sponsors or money would be great, so we can pay an
audio dev to create some plugins.
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Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Elementary OS

On Tue, 8 Sep 2015 15:45:41 +0200, ttoine wrote:
>So, really, I think instead trying to support everything, package
>everything, we should focus on what we know is working. And maintain
>it, make it clear that Ubuntu Studio is now focused to make things
>working.

Ok, here we agree. For plugins it's not only to consider to sort out
bad ones, but also to separate plugins usable for production, from those
who are ok, but not good for audio production.

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Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Elementary OS

2015-09-08 Thread lukefromdc

Those who expect paid service quality are probably better off paying
for it. On the other hand, Windows 10 is so malicious they will need
to pay for 3ed party tech support to stop the spying.

Maybe direct them to a known good Ubuntu or Mint LTS, then to paid
apps that run on it and have paid tech support?  When you use free 
software you are not paying people to staff call centers and provide
24-7 support. You need to bring your own browser, fire up Startpage
or DuckDuckgo, and look for the solution yourself.

When I got dissatisfied with every desktop in existance, instead of 
complaining I started hacking, now some of my work on MATE might
be going to GIT master.

A free community is based on mutual exchange. With things that have
a zero reproduction cost a lot of free riders is fine, but you get out of
free software what you put into it.

On 9/8/2015 at 4:51 AM, "ttoine"  wrote:
>
>>
>> Many users act as if they had paid for the distro/SW/whatever 
>and must be
>> served on a 24/7 basis within seconds of saying "hello". They 
>are not
>> willing to read anything, but rather expect to talk to some real 
>person.
>> Then they expect that person to guess their setup (ESP?) and do 
>not like to
>> be told "that won't work". Many of these queries can only be 
>answered by
>> people who understand the technical side of things... and these 
>people get
>> worn out.
>>
>> We need tools to help ease this.
>>
>
>Right ! That is why I propose to have everything in the same place 
>instead
>of having to go on many websites.

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Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Elementary OS

yes, we agree

Ok, here we agree. For plugins it's not only to consider to sort out
> bad ones, but also to separate plugins usable for production, from those
> who are ok, but not good for audio production.


Do we do that with wordpress on Ubuntustudio.org ?
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Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Elementary OS

2015-09-07 Thread ttoine

>
> One should not have to be an engineer or coder to use Linux multimedia. (I
> think that means we all agree :)  )
>
-> yes !!!

So... Can we create a new website to gather a community of non
engineer/coder users ?
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Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Elementary OS


On Mon, 7 Sep 2015, Jimmy Sjölund wrote:


I'm sure we could. But how would that help gathering new users? And why
can't we do that where the web site is today?


I don't know. Of course the end user has no clue where (or how) the site 
is being hosted anyway. Most people get to sites via links. However, it 
does seem that any page looking for help in US should be created first to 
appeal to the end user rather than coders. I am thinking someone who can 
code would find their way in regardless. I think showing an active 
interest in the end user would atract people who can do distro 
packaging/configuration.



To bring in more people into the community I think active PR and
communication are key. Making the web site at least responsive I think is
important and I was planning to do that this weekend (but ended up creating
web site and wiki for a refugee initiative instead). I don't see any direct
advantages with moving the web site to other servers. But I could be wrong?


It is all PR, yes. Active for sure. Needs someone who understands what FB, 
twitter, etc. has that email and irc does not. I personally do not have 
any use for these things at all. mail lists and irc fill all my needs and 
already take up more of my time than I (or my wife) like.



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Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] "elementary OS" ... ONE Ubuntustudio user's thoughts ...


On Fri, 4 Sep 2015, C. F. Howlett wrote:

Perhaps I missed it, but I saw precious little consideration or discussion in 
this thread about what Ubuntustudio USERS want/need from a multimedia OS.


Want and need are two different things... But (and this maybe shows my 
lack in PR) to me the whole thread has been about the end user. All of my 
changes have been towards the end user... true, from my POV :)


However, I am very willing to make Studio's setup work for what those who 
understand the end user better than I do come up with. I do maybe have a 
bit of an understanding what can be done or not and how much work a 
feature whould take. Also if a feature request really belongs with Studio 
or upstream. Perhaps I might be able to help word an upstream request so 
that it makes sense to a coder then again.


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Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Elementary OS


On Mon, 7 Sep 2015, ttoine wrote:


  One should not have to be an engineer or coder to use Linux
  multimedia. (I think that means we all agree :)  )

-> yes !!! 

So... Can we create a new website to gather a community of non
engineer/coder users ?


As I am one of those "leave comments here -> []" kind of people. (that is 
PR is not something I understand) I would not know how to start. I would 
think a reasonable large banner on any of our web sites that asks for 
comments could do that. The thing to be aware is that people will ask for 
impossible features... with either mac/win does this or with stuff nothing 
does right now or may nothing ever will do.


Having someone who can answer these politely and translate these thoughts 
to modifications for Studio would be required. The thing also is the 
person(s) answering these ideas needs to have some intuition which of 
these people would be helpful for refining their ideas to a final actual 
solution.


It is also good to remember that those who do know a little about coding 
are working (very) part time and helping useful idea people stay around 
when things are not moving fast enough to keep their interest  :)  is a 
talent too.


All this to say, how do we do that?



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Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Elementary OS

2015-09-07 Thread Ralf Mardorf

On Mon, 7 Sep 2015 08:28:13 -0700 (PDT), Len Ovens wrote:
>It is all PR, yes. Active for sure. Needs someone who understands what
>FB, twitter, etc. has that email and irc does not. I personally do not
>have any use for these things at all.

:D

That's also not my domain.

What I'm missing for modern websites is the old faithful site map.
Nowadays there are tons of flashing and moving pictures and buttons.

One thing that is really bad public relations on
https://ubuntustudio.org/ is the "News Archive".

August 2015

"Your chance to help – Beta Testing

If you would like to lend a hand to the volunteer project Ubuntu
Studio, this is the perfect time. It’s Beta testing time! You’ll need
to at least get yourself an account at launchpad.net, and subscribe to
our devel mail list in order to assist. Read more about how to do
testing in this post […] August 21, 2015 — No comments » News"

Were is the box to add a comment?

Ok,nobody needs it, since nobody who want to get the good OOTB
experience likes to get an account to assist.

The next news is from May 2015.

"Precise and linux-lowlatency-3.2 EOL

Since 3 years has become a new standard as the support period for
Ubuntu flavor LTS releases, we decided to end support for Ubuntu Studio
12.04 Precise Pangolin after 3 years. While we do that, we also end
support for linux-lowlatency 3.2. The most recent update will be the
last one. If you are still […] May 1, 2015 — 3 comments » News, Planet
Ubuntu"

Geek-speak about something that becomes discontinued. Much white space,
but no comment is visible. I'm willing to click the shadowed link.

"12.04 kernel seems to be better lowlatency than the new one. Any
advice for improving the latency performance? It’s still workable, but
makes me nervous…"

Let's continue with the next outdated news, April 2015.

"Ubuntu Studio 15.04 Vivid Vervet released!

Another short term release is out. Not much is new"

Comment:

"I can’t get 15.04 to boot from GRUB after installing. It starts by
saying “ooting in secure mode. B”… kind of disorganized.

14.04 would crash at the GRUB install stage."

OTOH PR that just claims how good the shiny product is will scare away
smart, independent users. A bunch of lies and censorship are a
no-go. Also wording to window-dress weak points is embarrassing, e.g.
from the website of Linux audio software "the most flexible mixer
architecture in the industry, hundreds of plugins, and external control
surfaces", every experienced user, not only experience engineers expect
something practical. A user wants a few plugins that do a good job, a
user wants a mixer, not a box of bricks. This example is
horoscope language. Good PR would claim, to provide a mixer in the
classical sense, no learning curve, a mixer we know how to use. Good PR
describes the features. "We provide a vocoder that can do all you
expect from a vocoder." "We provide 3 kinds of common used delay
effects that adjust delay times automatically to the change in tempo of
your song." "We provide a full orchestra plugin."

At least what already is provided for smart phone applications
that cost less than 10$/10€.

Who want's to read about a kernel? About unfinished mixers and obscure
plugins. What want users? Do they expect to get auto-tune or a Bob Katz
meter?

People are willing to pay hundreds of $/€ to get analog guitar effects.
Nearly nobody will use stand alone digital effects or guitar effects for
Microsoft, Apple or Windows computers for a long time, excepted of a
few expensive digital guitar effects.

The enthusiasm for what we get with Linux is biased.

Before you/we can make PR, we need products ;).

Linux mailing lists are overspammed with requests regarding plugin
hosts that crash.

Good PR would be to eliminate packages that provide plugins that make
the host crash, that cause DC offsets, that are named with something
they don't provide. Terms such as "EQ" and "Vocoder" are often used for
something that not really is an "EQ" or a "Vocoder". I'm not willing to
do this work. I will get a job, pay for a new sound card and mixer,
to get enough I/Os to use my external stand alone gear.

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Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Elementary OS


On Fri, 4 Sep 2015, ttoine wrote:


64 Studio, Dynabolic, AV LInux, ... were not easy to use Linux distros. e.g:


I agree, after trying some of these, I ended back with Slackware and 
AudioSlack. Ubuntu was usable for me. Really, the HW I had was not as good 
as the Atari Megga2 I was using for sequencing along with an F8 fostex 
open reel 8 track.



The fact is I now many sound engineers who are fed up with the way you work
to record and mix in Pro-Tools. The music creation is another workflow, you
do that with Cubase, Logic, or Live. And yes, you are right most of plugins


There are a lot of different styles of recording. Personally, I am very 
linear. I like almost live as second to live. I would never use anything 
from one chorus to the next as I expect them all to be at least slightly 
different. The same words have different meaning because of the verse 
coming before. I do not really understand the Ableton Live/LMMS style of 
stuff, but do know some people and styles of music require it. Finding SW 
that helps just makes sense.



and software are not available for Linux (and I spoke a lot about that with
Steinberg...). However, some industry leaders are taking that in account,
like Harrison. And Harrison customers are industry leaders too in recording,
movie, broadcast, etc. Bitwig, created by former Abletong employee, is also
a very good creative tool.


Pointing people at non-free plugins that we can't include would be good. 
Running win/OSx plugins is still not reliable. Installing Wine wants to do 
bad things to my system too.



  Most people aren't interested in a Bob Katz meter, they want
  mastering
  software that is state-of-the-art.

  Most people want loudness-war mixes.


Any SW that offers K* meters also offers peak meters. Right click (as 
always) is your friend.



You are wrong, it is nearly over. iTunes, Youtube and Spotify are now
requesting specific parameters for the masters, and will automatically lower
music level to match the spec. Just follow that kind of news:
http://dynamicrangeday.co.uk/news/


Good.


  Another issue are the Linux (audio) communities. There unlikely
  is a
  place with more narrow-minded narcissist then Linux (audio)
  communities.

I agree. This has always been a serious issue, from the beginning of Ubuntu
Studio.


Please look at this from both sides. People start friendly and answer 
questions freely, but they do get tired of answering the same questions 
over and over. Having a list of sites to point people at is good. Also, 
some new users are just incredibly rude. The "You have to support this" 
attitude shows up often enough to rub anyone the wrong way. Some of these 
requests make sense even, but require a lot of work and are not going to 
be worked on right now or even in the next year. Some users do not want to 
hear this.


Many users act as if they had paid for the distro/SW/whatever and must be 
served on a 24/7 basis within seconds of saying "hello". They are not 
willing to read anything, but rather expect to talk to some real person. 
Then they expect that person to guess their setup (ESP?) and do not like 
to be told "that won't work". Many of these queries can only be answered 
by people who understand the technical side of things... and these people 
get worn out.


We need tools to help ease this.


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Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] "elementary OS" ... ONE Ubuntustudio user's thoughts ...

2015-09-07 Thread Ralf Mardorf

What about a 2 pages on the Ubuntu Studio website. One to black and
whitelist plugins and another to balck and whitelist hardware.

Plugin name:
Host name
Ubuntu release:
Package version host:
Package version plugin:
Description:

Hardware:
Ubuntu Release:
Kernel version:
Firmware version:
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Without the need to have an account to post such a report.

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Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Elementary OS

2015-09-06 Thread Len Ovens


On Thu, 3 Sep 2015, ttoine wrote:


At that time, Cory took the lead, and it turns out that we were not on the
same spirit at all: 
 - I was focused on making things working, like I did from the start
 - He was focused on having a beautiful look'n feel for the desktop and
other low priority stuff in my opinion


I don't know Cory at all :) so no comment besides, I like functionality 
over looks.



So I stopped being active. I just continued to maintain some base
documentation, testing and report bugs. I also negotiated with Medibuntu to
host alsa-firmware and other restricted packages (e.g: codecs).

When Cory left Ubuntu Studio, a new team started and did a very good job. I
think most of you know the story from there: you are this amazing team.


I don't know about amazing, but thanks anyway. I think I started helping 
in about 1104 or 1110. It seems about the same time as the switch to xfce. 
I did mostly testing at first, But have done most of the menu changes and 
added some of the system setup.


One should not have to be an engineer or coder to use Linux multimedia. (I 
think that means we all agree :)  )


Using two USB Mics is never going to be an optimal solution, but the facts 
are that this situation is going to show up more and more. Using a USB mic 
and monitoring on internal audio is already a fact. I want to make that 
work OOTB.


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Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Elementary OS

2015-09-04 Thread Jimmy Sjölund

On Fri, Sep 4, 2015 at 11:12 AM, ttoine  wrote:

>
>
>> Another issue are the Linux (audio) communities. There unlikely is a
>> place with more narrow-minded narcissist then Linux (audio) communities.
>>
>
> I agree. This has always been a serious issue, from the beginning of
> Ubuntu Studio.
>

Yes and no. Any audio community is like this IMHO, post a question
somewhere on how to do X with Reaper running Windows 7 och you get 12
replies "By a Mac Pro you idiot!". Or vice versa.


> The bottom line is that you need to use Linux the way it is and if you
>> expect an easy way to make music in the way as most people do it
>> nowadays, then don't use Linux. If you want to make music in an old
>> fashion way without experiencing issues, then don't use Linux.
>>
>
> If me and others would have been thinking like that 10 years ago, Ubuntu
> Studio would not have been created at all. We were optimistic,
> enthusiastic, and we did it. The best proof in fact is that you are
> contributing to it.
>

Not sure what is meant here. I use US to record music in an old fashion
way. I want to record like I did on tape. I don't cut and paste in my
tracks. I don't use sequencers. If I record something I play it until
right. But I stopped even that and do one take only, but that's another
story.


>
>
>> What you want stays out of reach.
>>
>
> We can change the game if we promote manufacturers who provide Linux
> support for their hardware. We can also accept to speak clearly about non
> free professional software that are working on Ubuntu Studio.
>
> So, at the moment, you are right. But in the future, it depends on us.
>
> So again, the question: do we do that with Ubuntu Studio ? or does it need
> a new project with another name, like Elementary OS and Mint ?
>
>
Yes, I think Ubuntu Studio is still the way to go forward. We might not be
allowed or able to include propriatery software in the ISOs, but if we make
great documentation on how to install and use for instance Lightworks,
that's reaching a long way. With any luck, since hardware developer in some
areas are opening up to Ubuntu we might get some advantages there being an
official Ubuntu flavour when lobbying hardware creators. Trying to lobby
for XYZ Studio might be harder than to say, "Look you are already
supporting Ubuntu how about just making these updates for Ubuntu Studio?".
Not that I have any experience with lobbying hardware manufactorers but ...

/Jimmy
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Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Elementary OS

2015-09-04 Thread ttoine

64 Studio, Dynabolic, AV LInux, ... were not easy to use Linux distros.
e.g: I tried to install 64 studio on my pc, without success. That is why
Ubuntu was superior for users at this time. And most of these projects
disappear many years ago... Ubuntu Studio, however, is still here, and is
one of the most user friendly.


> A lot of people want to be able to make popular music, so they need the
> wobble bass, supersaw, auto-tune, orchestra, world-music sample player,
> morphing synth, vinyl break etc. that isn't provided by Linux. They
> want to store and restore sessions, they don't want to lose data while
> making music, they don't want to run in one after the other issue.
> Linux is for enthusiasts only. You perhaps can use it to record classic
> music and similar, but not in the way popular computer music is made.
>

The fact is I now many sound engineers who are fed up with the way you work
to record and mix in Pro-Tools. The music creation is another workflow, you
do that with Cubase, Logic, or Live. And yes, you are right most of plugins
and software are not available for Linux (and I spoke a lot about that with
Steinberg...). However, some industry leaders are taking that in account,
like Harrison. And Harrison customers are industry leaders too in
recording, movie, broadcast, etc. Bitwig, created by former Abletong
employee, is also a very good creative tool.

Most people aren't interested in a Bob Katz meter, they want mastering
> software that is state-of-the-art.
>
> Most people want loudness-war mixes.
>

You are wrong, it is nearly over. iTunes, Youtube and Spotify are now
requesting specific parameters for the masters, and will automatically
lower music level to match the spec. Just follow that kind of news:
http://dynamicrangeday.co.uk/news/


> Another issue are the Linux (audio) communities. There unlikely is a
> place with more narrow-minded narcissist then Linux (audio) communities.
>

I agree. This has always been a serious issue, from the beginning of Ubuntu
Studio.


> IOW the problem are missing software and a friendly place for
> communication and support.
>

That is the purpose of this thread, from the beginning.

With Ubuntu Studio, information is split an many places. We definitively
need to create one place with all the resource. Even places like LinuxMAO,
LAU, ... are not what we are looking for. We need to create a nice place if
we want to create a community of users. At the moment, resources provided
by Ubuntu Studio are for advanced users, but advanced users might prefer
other distributions. We don't help beginners the way they need. And
beginners with Linux are fed up to listen to "rtfm", "use google", click on
10 links to find the answer, etc.


> The bottom line is that you need to use Linux the way it is and if you
> expect an easy way to make music in the way as most people do it
> nowadays, then don't use Linux. If you want to make music in an old
> fashion way without experiencing issues, then don't use Linux.
>

If me and others would have been thinking like that 10 years ago, Ubuntu
Studio would not have been created at all. We were optimistic,
enthusiastic, and we did it. The best proof in fact is that you are
contributing to it.


> What you want stays out of reach.
>

We can change the game if we promote manufacturers who provide Linux
support for their hardware. We can also accept to speak clearly about non
free professional software that are working on Ubuntu Studio.

So, at the moment, you are right. But in the future, it depends on us.

So again, the question: do we do that with Ubuntu Studio ? or does it need
a new project with another name, like Elementary OS and Mint ?
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Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] "elementary OS" ... ONE Ubuntustudio user's thoughts ...

2015-09-04 Thread ttoine

Thanks a lot for your email.

Like often with open source projects, users are not enough in the center of
developer mind. We need to make it more easy for users to adopt Ubuntu
Studio !!!


Antoine THOMAS
Tél: 0663137906

2015-09-04 9:40 GMT+02:00 C. F. Howlett :

> Perhaps I missed it, but I saw precious little consideration or discussion
> in this thread about what Ubuntustudio USERS want/need from a multimedia OS.
>
> Ubuntu introduced me to the concept of "using" a computer outside of what
> Windows could do.  Free software?  Online support?  I can actually do cool
> things?  Consider me sold!  And a few years after I first experienced
> Ubuntu, Canonical released Ubuntustudio!? Winning!  I had SO MUCH fun doing
> all kinds of multimedia things that would otherwise have been prohibitively
> expensive under my other OS, and I've happily dualbooted Ubuntustudio since
> its first release.
>
> In a universe of Linux choices, including several multimedia options, I've
> stayed with Ubuntustudio for many reasons, not least being the multiple and
> dynamic support options.  I've not experienced any of the purported
> downsides of Canonical "ownership" of Ubuntustudio.
>
> I have seen and tested other distros.  Should Ubuntustudio die, I have
> selected a well-known alternate, but I truly hope it never comes to that.
>
> What I WOULD like to see is concerted efforts to improve, proof and polish
> the existing product.  I fully support directing the bulk of the efforts
> towards the LTS releases.  I suspect ALL users would enthusiastically
> welcome improved and updated documentation of the various workflows.
> Finally, updating the list of "verified Ubuntu friendly" hardware should be
> ongoing.
>
> As always, nothing I have written should be construed as discouraging
> anyone from creating another OS.  It's just that THIS user would almost
> certainly have no interest in it.
>
> Thanks for reading.  YMMV.
>
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Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] "elementary OS" ... ONE Ubuntustudio user's thoughts ...

2015-09-04 Thread Ralf Mardorf

On Fri, 4 Sep 2015 15:40:54 +0800, C. F. Howlett wrote:
>I had SO MUCH fun doing all kinds of multimedia things that would
>otherwise have been prohibitively expensive under my other OS, and
>I've happily dualbooted Ubuntustudio since its first release.

That's a good evidence that the Linux public relation works. This is
what many Linux users claim, but actually there's a huge scene for free
as in beer software for Windows too, especially for audio and that's the
reason that so many people wish to get native Windows VSTs to work,
since they miss a lot of high quality free as in beer plugins, let a
lone that much software is multi-platform, e.g. GIMP.

I don't like Apple and Microsoft and excepted of a tablet PC (an iPAD),
I got for free as in beer, I don't use it. There are good reasons to be
against those companies, but costs, available free or inexpensive art
applications, user base aren't those reasons.

Regarding the idea of making a new independent audio distro, I would
prefer an Ubuntu independent distro, assumed the user base would be huge
enough. I'm against small distros with small user bases.

A new independent distro would cause additional issues. Ubuntu has got
a clear-cut course, this is an advantage, because making a policy about
the core architecture of a distro is much work, would come with much
bikeshedding, flame wars, IOW it would waste much time.

Thinking of the averaged user, beginner, it makes sense to stay with
Ubuntu. To get something more powerful does mean to restrict some
things, but this is hard to do for a huge community, regarding the
different thinking of the individuals. OTOH Ubuntu has it's
restrictions too. Anyway, balancing pros and cons is easy.

My multi-boot is Arch Linux and Ubuntu. Arch's clear-cut course is to
be _not_ user-friendly, Arch is user-centric. "[Arch Linux] is what you
make it."

IMO to provide a good OOTB experience it's good to stay with Ubuntu. To
avoid the bad side effects I wished there would public relation for
diversity. There's no need for an oath of allegiance, to stay with one
distro, one WM/DE etc. forever. Unfortunately Linux has got a religious
aura.

IMO Ubuntu/Debian, Suse etc. are good for averaged needs, such as
mailing, browsing, office work, for beginners and power users and for
special needs, such as audio work those distros are good for beginners
and perhaps power users too, but power users also can switch to other
distros that are more DIY based.

My last bikeshedding comment to this thread:

The goal to provide a multimedia distro that automagically works with
everybody's hardware and that ships with an OOTB to use default
environment is easier to provide, when being an Ubuntu flavour, then
when being an independent distro.

Something that should appeal to be independent, tuned, optimised,
requires interest of the individual user and can't be the goal of an
OOTB approach distro.

Regards,
Ralf

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Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Elementary OS

2015-09-04 Thread Ralf Mardorf

On Fri, 4 Sep 2015 11:12:36 +0200, ttoine wrote:
>So, at the moment, you are right. But in the future, it depends on us.
>
>So again, the question: do we do that with Ubuntu Studio ? or does it
>need a new project with another name, like Elementary OS and Mint ?

We stay with Ubuntu to provide an OOTB experience, but at the same
time we explain that Linux isn't a church. We can learn and decide to
stay with Ubuntu, but anyway to set up Ubuntu to our individual
needs and/or we even can use other distros, or mix with wine-rt etc..

Hardware is another issue I won't comment now. Btw. I'll read all
mails, but try to continue setting up my Wily install, so I unlikely
will continue writing my opinions regarding this thread.

Regards,
Ralf

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Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] "elementary OS" ... ONE Ubuntustudio user's thoughts ...

2015-09-04 Thread Ralf Mardorf

On Fri, 04 Sep 2015 13:59:51 -0400, lukefro...@hushmail.com wrote:
>For something totally tuned and optimized to one system and one user,
>the usual recommendation is something like Gentoo.

IIRC regarding a poll Ubuntu and Arch are the most used distros by Linux
audio users, so I would recommend Arch Linux instead of Gentoo. This
wasn't the reason that I decided to use Arch instead of Gentoo, but at
least is something to consider, when recommending a distro. Btw. I
don't know if the poll at LAU/LAD does represent reality.

However, this kind of distro is definitively nothing I would recommend
a musician without computer knowledge. Ubuntu likely fits better. 

Regards,
Ralf

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Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] "elementary OS" ... ONE Ubuntustudio user's thoughts ...

2015-09-04 Thread lukefromdc

For something totally tuned and optimized to one system and one user, the
usual recommendation is something like Gentoo. probably better for my uses
but no way in hell I'd want to have to tech support this for someone else. For 
those who are not hackers, Ubuntu-based distros still have a lot going for them,
such as easy online search for help due to the large userbase.

What forced me to Debian was fears that the Snappy transition would screw up 
running a system that is never reinstalled, only update continuously from the 
alpha or rolling release of the day. That sort of thing has no bearing on what 
is
suitable for someone to download and install in the place of their Windows 
install
that got flagged by their ISP for sending spam after being botted.

On 9/4/2015 at 10:43 AM, "Ralf Mardorf"  wrote:
>
>On Fri, 4 Sep 2015 15:40:54 +0800, C. F. Howlett wrote:
>>I had SO MUCH fun doing all kinds of multimedia things that would
>>otherwise have been prohibitively expensive under my other OS, and
>>I've happily dualbooted Ubuntustudio since its first release.
>
>That's a good evidence that the Linux public relation works. This 
>is
>what many Linux users claim, but actually there's a huge scene for 
>free
>as in beer software for Windows too, especially for audio and 
>that's the
>reason that so many people wish to get native Windows VSTs to work,
>since they miss a lot of high quality free as in beer plugins, let 
>a
>lone that much software is multi-platform, e.g. GIMP.
>
>I don't like Apple and Microsoft and excepted of a tablet PC (an 
>iPAD),
>I got for free as in beer, I don't use it. There are good reasons 
>to be
>against those companies, but costs, available free or inexpensive 
>art
>applications, user base aren't those reasons.
>
>Regarding the idea of making a new independent audio distro, I 
>would
>prefer an Ubuntu independent distro, assumed the user base would 
>be huge
>enough. I'm against small distros with small user bases.
>
>A new independent distro would cause additional issues. Ubuntu has 
>got
>a clear-cut course, this is an advantage, because making a policy 
>about
>the core architecture of a distro is much work, would come with 
>much
>bikeshedding, flame wars, IOW it would waste much time.
>
>Thinking of the averaged user, beginner, it makes sense to stay 
>with
>Ubuntu. To get something more powerful does mean to restrict some
>things, but this is hard to do for a huge community, regarding the
>different thinking of the individuals. OTOH Ubuntu has it's
>restrictions too. Anyway, balancing pros and cons is easy.
>
>My multi-boot is Arch Linux and Ubuntu. Arch's clear-cut course is 
>to
>be _not_ user-friendly, Arch is user-centric. "[Arch Linux] is 
>what you
>make it."
>
>IMO to provide a good OOTB experience it's good to stay with 
>Ubuntu. To
>avoid the bad side effects I wished there would public relation for
>diversity. There's no need for an oath of allegiance, to stay with 
>one
>distro, one WM/DE etc. forever. Unfortunately Linux has got a 
>religious
>aura.
>
>IMO Ubuntu/Debian, Suse etc. are good for averaged needs, such as
>mailing, browsing, office work, for beginners and power users and 
>for
>special needs, such as audio work those distros are good for 
>beginners
>and perhaps power users too, but power users also can switch to 
>other
>distros that are more DIY based.
>
>My last bikeshedding comment to this thread:
>
>The goal to provide a multimedia distro that automagically works 
>with
>everybody's hardware and that ships with an OOTB to use default
>environment is easier to provide, when being an Ubuntu flavour, 
>then
>when being an independent distro.
>
>Something that should appeal to be independent, tuned, optimised,
>requires interest of the individual user and can't be the goal of 
>an
>OOTB approach distro.
>
>Regards,
>Ralf
>
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Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Elementary OS

2015-09-04 Thread Len Ovens


On Wed, 2 Sep 2015, Set Hallstrom wrote:


This makes me feel like i'm going to break a leg soon. I've never had
any problem finding hardware. Scanners, AIs, graphic cards,
midicontrolers PCIe-cards What am i doing right?


Running stock as installed? In general things have worked for me too. That 
said I do select what I use reasonablely carefully for the task. In the 
case of audio interfaces, I try before I buy.


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www.ovenwerks.net


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Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Elementary OS

2015-09-03 Thread Ralf Mardorf

Antoine,

there already was Dynabolic, an OOTB working Linux audio
distro, used by many Linux users, at the time when Ubuntu's initial
release wasn't used by many people. Shortly afterwards JAD, a Suse
based audio distro, followed by 64 Studio, first Debian based and later
Ubuntu based were popular. IOW since around 10 years we've got audio
distros that work OOTB.

I started in 2003 with Suse 9.0, when Ubuntu wasn't released. It wasn't
an audio distro, but it shipped with a user manual, with > 450 pages, 50
pages were about ALSA, buffers and latency, qjackconnect, MIDI. In
addition it shipped with a > 600 pages administrator's manual, for
53,48€ including shipping.

At that time even in Germany the Internet already was a better source
than those books and it already was possible to get audio, graphics
etc. working without much issues. And a few month later I discovered
Dynabolic, followed by JAD.

However, from 2006 to 2008 64 Studio existed. At that time already most
of the usable apps we have today, already were usable. Yes, there was
some progress and also some regresses, but Linux isn't state-of-the-art.

The problem isn't that people want a better OOTB experience.
The problem isn't that people want hipper graphic design.

A lot of people want to be able to make popular music, so they need the
wobble bass, supersaw, auto-tune, orchestra, world-music sample player,
morphing synth, vinyl break etc. that isn't provided by Linux. They
want to store and restore sessions, they don't want to lose data while
making music, they don't want to run in one after the other issue.
Linux is for enthusiasts only. You perhaps can use it to record classic
music and similar, but not in the way popular computer music is made.

Sure, you can make a supersaw sound with Linux synth foo and we have
something similar too auto-tune etc., but it's not usable in a sane way
and/or years too late.

Even those who want to record classical music, a garage band or similar
expect that e.g. Fon's parametric EQ is the default for each channel,
that aux sends are default etc., they expect a sequencer such as
Qtractor, with audio latency compensation as provided by Ardour.

Most people aren't interested in a Bob Katz meter, they want mastering
software that is state-of-the-art.

Most people want loudness-war mixes.

Another issue are the Linux (audio) communities. There unlikely is a
place with more narrow-minded narcissist then Linux (audio) communities.

IOW the problem are missing software and a friendly place for
communication and support.

The bottom line is that you need to use Linux the way it is and if you
expect an easy way to make music in the way as most people do it
nowadays, then don't use Linux. If you want to make music in an old
fashion way without experiencing issues, then don't use Linux.

What you want stays out of reach.

2 Cents,
Ralf

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Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Elementary OS

2015-09-03 Thread ttoine

 http://www.motu.com/products/avb/ultralite-avb which while it has a mixer
inside that requires SW, that SW is any browser (firefox/chrome/whatever)

-> nice feature. However, I don't care of internal DSP effects, I won't use
them. For live mixing, I prefer a mixer with pots and faders. That is why I
also won't buy RME stuff anymore: I don't want to pay for the useless
internal DSP.

Actually we could host on our own if we wish.

Ok, didn't know that !


> True. How do Xubuntu do their stuff? They seem to have more, like
> brochures and stickers.
>
Like ubuntu-fr or other local user groups, they have an agreement and
created a non profit organization. And the more Canonical is growing, the
more it is difficult to get such agreements now.


> I don't see how a new distro would help either. I am looking at AVLinux
> and KXStudio and don't see that they really are doing a lot better. They
> are both run by coders and so the difference is mainly technical.

Yes, I understand your point. At Apple, if Woz achieved great hardware, the
company wouldn't have such a success without Job's vision.

Ok, I can agree with that. I would be the first to say I am blind at
> helping with more than the technical aspects. The things I am suggesting in
> that area are from helping new to linux users on IRC, not just in
> #ubuntustudio, but in linux audio lists, irc and forums in general.
>
Having someone with your experience add a great value to the team.

*About refreshing Ubuntu Studio look'n feel:*
 - Change the logo will not help. We can "flat-ize" it you want like the
current Ubuntu logo, or like a lot of logos at the moment. But we should
keep it like that.
 - We need a new website, with a simple and bright theme, pleasant to read
and responsive. And if possible, we should blog more about our ecosystem,
so people can see that the project is active.
 - Again, I don't care too much about the look'n feel of US,  until it is
simple and pleasant to use. I think that what we can do better than what we
have today:
  + Elementary OS is more like Mac os X, simple, nothing to tweak, focused
on use, needs very low resources
  + Mint (Cinnamon) is more like Windows, with customization, but more heavy
  + Unity is the default Ubuntu desktop, it would make US closer to Ubuntu,
and is now very mature and stable
  + XFCE, Mate, etc. are looking old fashioned (I prefer Mate over XFCE, by
the way) but are still popular with many users

-> on a technical side, which one do you think would the more optimized for
multimedia production, or what are the one we should avoid for best
performance ??? if we go for desktop agnostic (a good option), are we still
a distro, or just an "addon" like KXstudio ?
 -> on a look'n feel point of view, why maintain a custom dark theme ? why
not having a basic bright theme, or any light blue theme, and a simple
white background with the blue logo? This way we don't focus too much of
our time on that, and can work on more important stuff (doc, forum
answering, fixing what's under the hood, ...)

*About technical aspects:*
 - We have few contributors and they are not full time. So maybe we should
focus on LTS, provide backports when needed (ex: latest version of Ardour
in 14.04), and intermediate installers.
 - We should not focus on short term support versions of Ubuntu.
 - Do you agree with this idea ? or is there a real interest to support
short term versions ?

*About US website(s):*
 - If we redo a brand new website, do you think it could be interesting to
have our own forum and doc ? Maybe it would be better to have everything in
one place to create an effective community, than to have everything split
over many websites like today.

By the way, I would like to thank each of you for your answers. I now it
takes time to read and type.

Please, be sure that the aim of this thread is not to kill Ubuntu Studio
but to find fresh & new ideas to achieve this idea: "*it should be easy to
produce Multimedia with open source software*".
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Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Elementary OS

2015-09-03 Thread Jimmy Sjölund

On Wed, Sep 2, 2015 at 11:02 PM, Jimmy Sjölund  wrote:

>
>
> On Wednesday, September 2, 2015, Len Ovens  wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 2 Sep 2015, Set Hallström wrote:
>>
>> what it is ATM. Also, this thread made me reflect over our logo, which is
>>> clearly
>>> a mashup between the
>>> firewire logo and ubuntu logo. Now that firewire is getting obsolete,
>>> perhaps it
>>> could be remodeled?
>>>
>>
>> Not having ever used firewire stuff, It has always looked like a mix of
>> ubuntu and an open reel to me (from tape days).
>>
>> Hmm I always thought of the logo as the Ubuntu ring and a speaker... I
> like the logo. I am tired though and will write a longer reply on my
> thoughts on all the discussions today. To be continued...
>

As for the web site I am already planning to redo the theme in time for
15.10 mainly to make it responsive across platforms. I am thinking of using
the new theme Xubuntu made, if they will let us, and modify it to a Ubuntu
Studio graphic profile.

We could probably use some new screenshots but other than that I'm not
thinking of fixing stuff. What is needed to fix?

Sure we could argue that it is bike shedding as well as with the logo, but
there is a reason even Google, Apple and Microsoft change their logos and
design from time to time. Also, this is something I know how to do so I am
doing it. I can't participate in discussions or work about kernels or in
depth Jack so...

I think there are some things we need to grow the community. And we do need
to grow the community. I don't think there are any objections there.

1) A good distribution with good applications.
I think we already have that. Without this nothing else will make by
difference. But continuous improvement is important and which is why we
still work with getting Ubuntu Studio better for each release.

2) Easy and friendly support.
We have great resources and people involved here but as you all also know
we could need a lot more people working with support to users, covering the
forum, irc, mail lists and producing content for the wiki, help pages and
YouTube.

3) Activity on social media.
Yeah, it might seem like a marketing PR thing. Yes, it is. That's why we
need to do it more frequently. To reach out to new users and developers
they need to find out about us, and they are not going do that if we are
invisible. Sure some do, I did, but to receive a larger user base and
growing the team we need to do more than just sit around waiting for them
to show up in IRC. Of course I exaggerate, but you get my point.

In time I think maybe we should redo the logo but I think for 16.04 at the
earliest. If we are to change it at all. As we already see people are
interpreting it differently suiting their needs and beliefs. To me, that is
a good sign of a good design.

I was thinking of included a lot of quotes from earlier emails to give my
view on details, but the thread is growing fast and I can't find the time
right now. These are my broad views on the matter. I'm going with it.

/Jimmy
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Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Elementary OS

2015-09-03 Thread Ralf Mardorf

On Thu, 3 Sep 2015 11:30:04 +0200, ttoine wrote:
>-> nice feature. However, I don't care of internal DSP effects, I
>won't use them. For live mixing, I prefer a mixer with pots and
>faders. That is why I also won't buy RME stuff anymore: I don't want
>to pay for the useless internal DSP.

Those mixers don't replace my analog mixer for studio recording (or if
you prefer a digital mixer or remote for Qtractor/Ardour mixers), those
mixers are useful to handle the audio streams of the DAW, without extra
latency, extra load, the risk to crash, the risk of update
incompatibility issues.

A simple example, excluding monitoring, external master recorder etc.:

###   ###
#analog mixing console#   #virtual mixer#
###   ###
/\  |  /\ |  /\|  /\   |  /\
|  \/  | \/  | \/  |   \/  |
mics   effects  ###   ##
synths  #sound card   #   #software#
etc.###   ##
/\ |  /\
| \/  |
mics  effects
synth
etc.

A /\ and | are for several I/Os, not a just a single I/O.
  | \/

In a home studio you might have a usable analog mixer (or digital mixer
and a remote mixer for software mixers), but neither the money, nor the
space for an analog Neve with Flying Faders (or a digital replacement),
so the way to go is to use a mixed set up.

And btw. alsamixer to control the sound card is a PITA, but that's
another issue.

>Actually we could host on our own if we wish.

Who is we? Can you do it? I'm not aware about any usable Linux FLOSS
software mixer.

Links to a package or to upstream are welcome.

Regards,
Ralf

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Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Elementary OS

2015-09-03 Thread Jimmy Sjölund

On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 11:30 AM, ttoine  wrote:

>
>> Actually we could host on our own if we wish.
>
> Ok, didn't know that !
>

That might give us some freedom and advantages but also other
disadvantages. Like cost and more maintenance.

>
>
>> True. How do Xubuntu do their stuff? They seem to have more, like
>> brochures and stickers.
>>
> Like ubuntu-fr or other local user groups, they have an agreement and
> created a non profit organization. And the more Canonical is growing, the
> more it is difficult to get such agreements now.
>

However, Ubuntu Studio is still an official distribution so I think it
should not be impossible. I could be wrong though.

>
> *About refreshing Ubuntu Studio look'n feel:*
>  - Change the logo will not help. We can "flat-ize" it you want like the
> current Ubuntu logo, or like a lot of logos at the moment. But we should
> keep it like that.
>

I agree. Maybe some refining for 16.04 but otherwise I think it looks damn
good in the different versions.

>  - We need a new website, with a simple and bright theme, pleasant to read
> and responsive. And if possible, we should blog more about our ecosystem,
> so people can see that the project is active.
>

Ongoing. I plan to do a quick overhaul of the web site to make it
responsive, and maybe some other fixes if suggestions come in and they are
easy enough to do. Then a major overhaul for 16.04.

>  - Again, I don't care too much about the look'n feel of US,  until it is
> simple and pleasant to use. I think that what we can do better than what we
> have today:
>   + Elementary OS is more like Mac os X, simple, nothing to tweak, focused
> on use, needs very low resources
>   + Mint (Cinnamon) is more like Windows, with customization, but more
> heavy
>   + Unity is the default Ubuntu desktop, it would make US closer to
> Ubuntu, and is now very mature and stable
>   + XFCE, Mate, etc. are looking old fashioned (I prefer Mate over XFCE,
> by the way) but are still popular with many users
>

These are mostly personal views people have. I don't like either Max OS X
or Windows desktops. I only have older hardware and want to keep the DE out
of it as much as possible. I would still want to do that with a brand new
computer. I want it to do the audio/video stuff I do, not be shiny and hace
fancy swooshing menus or what not. Other people do however, and they should
be able to install whatever DE they think fit their purpose the best.

Sure, Unity would make US more like vanilla Ubuntu, but XFCE makes US more
like Xubuntu which is not a bad thing. You can get support on certain areas
from both the Xubuntu community and xfce community. With Unity it's "just"
Ubuntu.

To make Ubuntu Studio look more modern, if that's what we are aiming for
and can agree what "modern" looks like, I think that would be possible to
create within xfce.

>  -> on a look'n feel point of view, why maintain a custom dark theme ? why
> not having a basic bright theme, or any light blue theme, and a simple
> white background with the blue logo? This way we don't focus too much of
> our time on that, and can work on more important stuff (doc, forum
> answering, fixing what's under the hood, ...)
>

Agree, or perhaps if we have the resources to provide one dark and one
light theme. Myself, I try to set everything to Solarized theme anyway.

>
> *About technical aspects:*
>  - We have few contributors and they are not full time. So maybe we should
> focus on LTS, provide backports when needed (ex: latest version of Ardour
> in 14.04), and intermediate installers.
>  - We should not focus on short term support versions of Ubuntu.
>  - Do you agree with this idea ? or is there a real interest to support
> short term versions ?
>

Sort of. I think it's good to have the inbetween releases to try out things
but focus on LTS. Until the team and community is bigger.

>
> *About US website(s):*
>  - If we redo a brand new website, do you think it could be interesting to
> have our own forum and doc ? Maybe it would be better to have everything in
> one place to create an effective community, than to have everything split
> over many websites like today.
>

No. Why would we do that? There is a lot of advantages to get help on the
Ubuntu forum no matter if it's Ubuntu Studio or other flavours. You go to
one forum and find the answers there. To move away I think it would make it
harder for people to find help and there are several helping out with the
Ubuntu Studio questions who are not part of the US team or in IRC. We might
lose their contributions breaking out to a new forum. And then we would
need to maintain the forum itself and I have managed several forums before.
It's a hassle. There's a reason I have decommissioned them all.

A consistent structure and instructions on where to find help on the
different channels I think is the way to go. Even if we pulled everything
into our own server it would still be several instances to look in: wiki,

Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Elementary OS

2015-09-03 Thread Ralf Mardorf

>On Thu, 3 Sep 2015 11:30:04 +0200, ttoine wrote:
>>Actually we could host on our own if we wish.

Antoine, please try to do proper quoting in the future.

I now noticed this was written by Len and it's not related to the mixer.

In your reply it isn't marked as a quote.

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Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Elementary OS

On 2015-09-01 17:51, ttoine wrote:
> In conclusion, I can tall that, yes, it is possible to compete with
> other more common solution in many fields of multimedia production. I
> just feel that Ubuntu Studio is not anymore the best way to attract
> users. We need something new, fresh and elegant for curious people ;-)

I'm not sure, but i think i'm reading a re-branding suggestion here. Do
we need to cut all past ties to do that? I don't know.

Sometimes, when my converted friends need help (which is incredibly
seldom), i send them the terminal command to cut and paste because it's
faster than writing a how to for the GUI: "open this app, go into that
menu, click on "magicschwizzle button", browse to the voila-tab, enter
value "X" under tudulu, click accept, restart program" Obviously, my
personal experience has NO relevancy to the majority, but my friends
always tell me with pride that they fell like a hacker :D And i like
that. By helping them solve the solution this way, i'm indirectly
teaching them how the terminal works, what a directory looks like in
text, and so guiding them to better understand their own computing.

To be fair, I don't think i have ever tweaked or tuned ubuntustudio more
then the looks of the desktop (place menu where i want it, pick a funky
color). Why would i, the software shipped with it works as is. The most
complicated task i have ever needed to do is install Nvidia drivers or
add a PPA in the software-update GUI. Installing my audio interface was
a matter of plugging it, and set my desired options in jack. But then
again, i looked up the gear before i bought it. In a way this is also a
collateral benefit: with GNU/Linux, you can't just buy stuff. You have
to know what you want to do and research it. You are basicaly being
pushed to learn and to socialise to find your answers. I think this is
an extremely healthy process that stands out in our ever more tear
oriented society.

Having all this written, let me add that i also believe everything could
be simplified and better and i sure hope things will keep on getting
easier acces threshold and better stability. But i don't think over
simplyfying things is something we need to aim for. The ideal situation
as i see it would be having a fair balance between leveling ubuntustudio
down to the masses and lifting the masses up to ubuntustudio. And as of
today, this is what i think Ubuntustudio is very good at.

Perhaps deeper-digging brainstorm around tutoring is a better way to go,
than to make things flat easy.

I guess it's just my opinion. :)

Have a great day y'all!

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Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Elementary OS

Luke,
Kdenlive or other free softwares are ok for editing short or long projects,
with or without compositing and effetcs. However, most the time, open
source video editor can not work with broadcast quality (timecode sync on
video and audio, 4 audio tracks, ...)

Ralph,
I agree with Len, you don't need a pcie sound card, pci is fast enough for
audio (actually, usb2 is fast enough...) RME did new pcie version of their
card likely for the mac pro. And the RME driver has been developed by an
independant guy, not by RME officially. This guy may not have the time
anymore to work on the driver. Or he still have a pci RME soundcard, and he
might find that this is good enough.
About midi jitter with usb sound cards, I don't know. I use an Akai pmd18
without any issue. If there are some tests I can do to check, let me know.
It might also depend on the midi chipset, no ?

Antoine THOMAS
Tél: 0663137906

2015-09-02 4:27 GMT+02:00 Len Ovens :

> On Tue, 1 Sep 2015, ttoine wrote:
>
> Hardware:
>>  - Most of Blackmagic hardware work great with Linux for video
>>  - I would recommand to avoid PCI sound card now, and use USB2 compliant
>> sound
>> card instead: I can work at 3ms of latency without issues with Focusrite,
>> Presonus or Allen & Heath devices, and we can expect to have less with
>> Arturia's
>> Audiofuse (can't wait to test it)
>>
>
> unless you have a working pci IF already. There are still new mother
> boards with working pci slots, mine has three. I don't know about buying a
> pci card though. I might buy a pcie AI like one of the AudioScience boards
> if it fit my needs, but USB would give more bang for the buck for sure.
>
> To take this one step farther, I think it is reasonable to assume that
> most Studio users will have a USB AI and default tweaks/setup in that
> direction. Those with a PCI will likely have some experience setting it up.
>
> Your breadth of experience is very helpful.
>
>
> --
> Len Ovens
> www.ovenwerks.net
>
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Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Elementary OS

2015-09-02 Thread lukefromdc

In my experience if you want to use Linux in general it pays to pre-research
any new or newly purchased hardware and screen out things like Nvidia
graphics that work poorly with FOSS software and drivers. For instance,
I would not accept any camera that wrote only to an internal hard drive
unless I knew for certain it could be connected to without Windoze or Crapple.

If I were stuck with such a camera I would have to sell it unused and use the
proceeds to buy one with removable storage.

On 9/2/2015 at 10:54 AM, "Ralf Mardorf"  wrote:
>
>On Wed, 2 Sep 2015 15:09:55 +0200, ttoine wrote:
>>What is great with usb2 class compliant audio devices, is that any
>>device working with Apple iPad will work out of the box with 
>Linux.
>
>That's nice. OTOH the cheapest RME USB device seems to be the
>Babyface. It's much more expensive than the HDSPe AIO PCIe card 
>and RME
>hides minimal buffer sizes for the Babyface, but the HDSPe AIO is
>advertised with buffer sizes. Why do they hide the buffer sizes?
>
>However, you pay for the card plus the new total mix, a mixer 
>seemingly
>similar to mixbus. It's not available for Linux, so pay for Mixbus 
>or a
>similar solution too.
>
>I wonder if the class compilant modus even allows to use the aged 
>total
>mix we know as hdspmixer?
>
>One reason to use FLOSS is that a lot is available for free as in 
>beer,
>unfortunately software is bundled with the hardware, IOW you pay 
>for
>what you need, but can't use it with Linux. For Linux there aren't
>FLOSS solutions to replace what you already bought.
>
>Linux became a bottomless pit.
>
>Your goal to make an Ubuntu independent Linux audio distro to 
>provide
>something that can compete better to proprietary solutions is the 
>wrong
>track. Hardware companies already bundle what users need and they
>usually provide it for Apple and Microsoft based systems only. An
>exception is Behringer. Behringer nowadays seems to support Linux
>platforms too, but Behringer is bottom quality, you even can't 
>unscrew,
>repair/maintain and screw down Behringer gear without trouble.
>
>Hardware for Linux always was an issue and for audio it becomes a 
>more
>serious issue at the moment.
>
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Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Elementary OS

>
>
> I think i want to try compile something like that. I'm stating this with
> reserve because my schedule is
> what it is ATM. Also, this thread made me reflect over our logo, which is
> clearly a mashup between the
> firewire logo and ubuntu logo. Now that firewire is getting obsolete,
> perhaps it could be remodeled?
> A corporate identity lifting is a lot of work, but that would go in the
> direction ttoine was mentioning:
>
> Yes, for in 2006, Firewire was one of the best option for audio and video
recording and a standard for the industry.

Yes, we have to take care, for changing an identity cost time. That is why
I am considering an entire new project with another name: that might be
faster than to work with Canonical (they will have to register a new logo,
...)
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Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Elementary OS

On 2015-09-02 18:19, ttoine wrote:

> 
> What is important is not what picture we put for the default background,
> or if we should choose XFCE vs Unity. This look'n feel or technical stuff.
> 
> What is important is how to create something to answer user needs. This
> is the foundation of a project.

I think that is clear. But i'm confused about your intentions
statements. On one hand, you state your lack of time and resources. On
the other hand you want to start from scratch. I understand starting
from scratch could allow you to get funds, but how to get those funds
and where? Kickstarter with the promise of something fresher than
ubuntustudio? Or is there a plan as to get funds before you have
something to fund? I feel like i sound super negative and its bothering
me. It's not my intention... I'm really glad this is coming up. It seems
like many old todo's have been left behind and are starting to create a
mess. I would personally prefer try to clean up all the over due things
you state, but how about putting it this way:

*We should probably consider:*

- Fixing the website
- Fixing the wiki
- Propagate links to the studio section in the ubuntuforum
- Help ttoine raise our concerns with canonical about promotional
stuffs, partnership, official recommendation from manufacturers and
editors, and crowdfunding.

Maybe the reason because our wiki, forum and website got left behind is
because things got comfortable on IRC and none of us tryed to get all
the bits and pieces of questions and answers together in one spot? I
don't know, i'm just an enthusiastic n00b-dev trying to understand where
to start. But i feel like we would save ourself a great deal of energy
with a simple list of tasks regarding how to fix what is broken, rather
than abondon ship.

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Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Elementary OS

2015-09-02 Thread Set Hallström

On Wed, Sep 2, 2015 at 5:00 PM, Kaj Ailomaa  wrote:

>
> Having ideas is great, but at some point one needs to figure out how to
> realize them as well.
> Who is going to create this new database you are talking about?

I think i want to try compile something like that. I'm stating this with
reserve because my schedule is
what it is ATM. Also, this thread made me reflect over our logo, which is
clearly a mashup between the
firewire logo and ubuntu logo. Now that firewire is getting obsolete,
perhaps it could be remodeled?
A corporate identity lifting is a lot of work, but that would go in the
direction ttoine was mentioning:

On Tue, Sep 1, 2015 at 5:51 PM, ttoine  wrote:

> . We need something new, fresh and elegant for curious people ;-)
>
>
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Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Elementary OS

@Ralph,
You should have a look at Arturia's new usb2 compliant soundcard, they say
that this is the lowest latency ever without specific driver (however they
will provide an asio driver for windows customers)
http://www.arturia.com/audiofuse/overview
Arturia headquarter is in my area, so I will try to visit them and test how
it is working on Ubuntu Studio when I can find time. It comes with all the
connections you might want, and without useless DSP. If it works well I
will try to buy it. I know that it is expensive. But this is really a game
changer for Linux users ! (Even RME is redesigning its Babyface.)

@Kaj,
The fact is I know well what means starting from scratch a project like
that, for I did it with Ubuntu Studio. So I am confident this is possible:
we already changed the idea of "producing multimedia with GNU/Linux must be
possible out of the box" in something concrete. Know we need to go ahead
and make it really easy to attract new users.

Of course I can update things. You too. But not alone. We can't do it
alone: we can't buy all the hardware, test it, write doc and help debug. I
did that in the past, until 2008, when I had my company, and no family. It
costs a lot!!! If the RME driver and Echo driver are working on Ubuntu,
this is because I bought sound cards, test them and helped to fix the
alsa-firmware package. At the beginning, alsa-firmware was even not
available in Ubuntu repositories at all. But I can not be a sponsor
anymore. So we need new sponsors, and active contributors who own other
equipment.

That is my purpose: how can we attract users, create a more active
community, that would be able to create and maintain useful resources? I am
not sure anymore that Ubuntu Studio is still the best way. This is why I
started this thread on the mailing list.

If you follow professional multimedia production news, you will feel that
the industry is looking at Linux as alternative to OS X. Nowadays, many big
production systems are already running on GNU/Linux, some new cameras are
running a Linux based firmware. Many big studios and broadcasting companies
are using Linux based NAS for storing and sharing the data. Canonical won
several contracts to create multimedia Cloud Storage.

What the industry and users need is to see that there is an active project,
concrete, stable, long term, documented, with a dedicated forum. But nobody
is providing that.

With Ubuntu Studio, we have:
 - A website without a clear editorial line, that we can't host without
Canonical
 - Our wiki is lost on Ubuntu help
 - We have a small section in the huge Ubuntu forum
 - We can't make promotional stuffs, partnership, official recommendation
from manufacturers and editors, crowdfunding or whatever... money is
forbidden. I had to fight for months to have a licence to make our
Spreadshirt shop, and Canonical is still after me from time to time about
it.

What is important is not what picture we put for the default background, or
if we should choose XFCE vs Unity. This look'n feel or technical stuff.

What is important is how to create something to answer user needs. This is
the foundation of a project.

Antoine THOMAS
Tél: 0663137906

2015-09-02 17:00 GMT+02:00 Kaj Ailomaa :

> On Wed, Sep 2, 2015, at 04:47 PM, ttoine wrote:
> > While this is interesting for advanced users, those information are not
> > accurate and not updated...
> >
>
> Please help updating it.
>
> > For beginners this is still complicated. And there is nothing about
> > professional video equipment.
> >
>
> That is because no one has put it there yet. And, if it's too
> complicated, please simplify it.
>
> >
> > Antoine THOMAS
> > Tél: 0663137906
> >
>
> All I'm saying it's not smart having to start from scratch, especially
> if there are already people committed to doing something for existing
> organizations, and that there already is some kind of framework for how
> to do things.
>
> Having ideas is great, but at some point one needs to figure out how to
> realize them as well.
> Who is going to create this new database you are talking about?
>
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Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Elementary OS

On Wed, 2 Sep 2015 21:20:06 +0200, Set Hallstrom wrote:
>To be alarmist, isn't it also a way to garantee that no malicious code
>is being entered? That the download links for ISO's are not edited to
>mirror some zombiepidemic?

Yesno! Ubuntu is known to add spayware! But it's not a secret and
the spyware can be removed. Making an independent distro doesn't mean
to stay away from the Linux/BSD communities. All the serious issues
within the last years were quickly fixed. Who ever fixed such an issue,
upstream quickly released fixed versions and Linux distros and BSD
flavours upgraded their repos/ports. One of the more popular issues
within the last years got it's own corporate design ;),
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heartbleed#/media/File:Heartbleed.svg.
Ubuntu downloads by pushing a button are a PITA. Ubuntu provides the
right way, https://help.ubuntu.com/community/VerifyIsoHowto. The chain
of trust is another issue. I don't call it "web of trust", because the
"chain of trust" is beyond it. I explained it on the Ubuntu user mailing
list. What a web of trust is, is explained by several sources. In
addition do you trust capitalists, e.g. Mark Shuttleworth? Do you trust
yourself or are you e.g. neurotic? What is a link? A link is something
that might be resolved by an NSA nameserver. The NSA most known is
8.8.8.8 ;). However, if you download your ISO from a NSA server and
you can verify it with a trusted key, it's safe. IOW it doesn't matter
if the link is a fake or not. To realise a web of trust is possible,
there's no need to belong to Ubuntu. I guess a lot of people just
download without making a checksum test. A few make a checksum test, but
without taking care of the signature. A few verify the signature, but
they have no key to trust the key that belongs to the signature. A
minority own a key to verify the origin of another keys owner, but then
they still need to trust the owner.

Do you expect that a target group that needs ubuntustudio-controls
application to add/remove users from audio group has the ability to
verify an ISO with a trusted key?

However, an independent distro could grant the same security as Ubuntu.
What an independent distro can't grant is support. Why get Ubuntu and
Debian mailing lists spammed with support requests from Mint users?
Freakish distros such as Mint don't have such a huge user base.

I dislike Ubuntu, but a poll showed that Ubuntu and Arch seems to be the
most used distros for Linux audio by those subscribed to LAU/LAD. For
sure Planet CCRMA, Suse and Debian are not that seldom used, but
already known audio distros for good reasons aren't that popular.

I prefer Arch over Ubuntu, but when contributing something to a distro
that is suitable for newbies, there's no way around Ubuntu.

Btw. there already was a good independent audio distros with a business
concept http://www.64studio.com/team but it's not available
anymore ;) and btw. if you visit Robins website, http://gareus.org/,
you'll notice this link to the LAD archive:
http://lists.linuxaudio.org/pipermail/linux-audio-user/2013-February/thread.html#89924.

Regards,
Ralf

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Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Elementary OS

On 2015-09-02 20:30, Kaj Ailomaa wrote:

> I don't see many closed doors in regard for Ubuntu Studio. Quite the
> opposite. It's very much an open field for people who want to
> contribute. And, if we don't have enough contributors, it's a matter of
> finding a way to get more.
> 
> But, if enough people are interested in doing something new, why not?
> 
> Just, please, if you do packaging work for something based on Debian
> packages, why not also do it in Debian so that the large masses can
> benefit, and not just a select few who users a niche distro.
> 
> The further upstream you make the changes, the more people you will
> benefit. And Ubuntu Studio is a perfect contact point between the large
> masses of users, and the upstream developers
> .
> I can't figure a better place to put your effort than here right now.
> 

I second this. Maybe i'm missing some essential part of the structure of
the organisation? I thought ubuntustudio was sort of a quality filter
for programs that many different independent entities are developing?
Like a bunch of specialist lego builder, drawing a map for each and
everyone to be able to build an almost perfect spaceship. I can't wrap
my head around the issue. However i bend the question i hear something
like: "Going independent from an independent entity."

Ok, we are imposed to respect some rules and procedures stipulated by
canonical. I'm not much of an obeyer, but to some extend I think it's a
good thing. First, because to create something you need to define a
space where this game take place, like Georges Perrec eloquently writes
in "Species of Spaces". Second, because restrictions on what can be
edited on the websites and what can be included in the repository, is a
way to guarantee that we, as a group publish things with regards to the
will of the GROUP. Not just one or a few of us. Heck! To be alarmist,
isn't it also a way to garantee that no malicious code is being entered?
That the download links for ISO's are not edited to mirror some
zombiepidemic?

I think i have emptied my mind on this topic. I encourage anyone to
follow their vision.

Now i'm going to try test the new UbuntuStudio controls.

Yours,

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Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Elementary OS

2015-09-02 Thread Len Ovens


On Wed, 2 Sep 2015, Set Hallström wrote:


what it is ATM. Also, this thread made me reflect over our logo, which is 
clearly
a mashup between the 
firewire logo and ubuntu logo. Now that firewire is getting obsolete, perhaps it
could be remodeled? 


Not having ever used firewire stuff, It has always looked like a mix of 
ubuntu and an open reel to me (from tape days).


I have nothing against a new logo, but do feel that unless there is 
something new "under the hood" it is not time for that. However, as you 
said it may take some time to develop so if you have some ideas (or anyone 
else does) bring them forward. On the other side, the logo we have is well 
known and in the same way as ubuntu vanilla has not changed their logo 
even though the desktop has dramatically changed leaves one to wonder if 
that is the best way forward.



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Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Elementary OS

2015-09-02 Thread Kaj Ailomaa

On Wed, Sep 2, 2015, at 06:19 PM, ttoine wrote:
(...)
> That is my purpose: how can we attract users, create a more active
> community, that would be able to create and maintain useful resources? I
> am
> not sure anymore that Ubuntu Studio is still the best way. This is why I
> started this thread on the mailing list.
> 
(...)

I don't see many closed doors in regard for Ubuntu Studio. Quite the
opposite. It's very much an open field for people who want to
contribute. And, if we don't have enough contributors, it's a matter of
finding a way to get more.

But, if enough people are interested in doing something new, why not?

Just, please, if you do packaging work for something based on Debian
packages, why not also do it in Debian so that the large masses can
benefit, and not just a select few who users a niche distro.

The further upstream you make the changes, the more people you will
benefit. And Ubuntu Studio is a perfect contact point between the large
masses of users, and the upstream developers
.
I can't figure a better place to put your effort than here right now.

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Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Elementary OS

On 2015-09-02 23:02, Jimmy Sjölund wrote:
> I like the logo. I am tired though and will write a longer reply on my
> thoughts on all the discussions today. To be continued... 

I like it too. :) I was just hinting a potential solution to a problem
that I clearly don't understand.

On 2015-09-02 22:53, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> Do you expect that a target group that needs ubuntustudio-controls
> application to add/remove users from audio group has the ability to
> verify an ISO with a trusted key?

No, i don't _expect_ anything from humans. It's too risky. I'd rather
take action. But i do find myself _hoping_ every now and then. :)

Reading through the thread again, I think i should have contented myself
by stating that, as of now, I am not available for getting involved in
another project, being barley capable of contributing to this one. Yet,
and to repeat myself, I sincerely encourage anyone longing for greater
independence to get busy with the necessary actions to obtain it. <3

read ya soon y'all!
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Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Elementary OS

On Wed, 2 Sep 2015 23:02:48 +0200, Jimmy Sjölund wrote:
>I like the logo. I am tired though and will write a longer reply on my
>thoughts on all the discussions today. To be continued...

The logo is perfect for an audio/video distro. It includes the three
people from the Ubuntu logo and an audio/video reel. It's an open
circle, it isn't closed. The open part also shows something that could
be interpreted as sound waves or as a symbol for the computer, a
similarity to the IEEE 1394 interface logo. It also has similarities
with a speaker, slipmat, record, CD, DVD, record player ... The
colouration stands for technology, engineering.

What's missing are hints to art, independence. If covers the technical
aspect of music, but doesn't represent art, let alone photography and
other arts, even while you could claim, that it has got similarities to
a lenses, airbrush nozzle ...

What I usually see in the logo is the same as Len does see. And I agree
with Len's "under the hood" argument. If you are young and start your
first band, you like to think about the band name without being able to
perform a single song. A band without a name, but able to perform 15
good songs likely will become famous as "The band without name", while
nobody will care about the band with the hip name, but without songs.

IOW the logo is good, just not independent from Ubuntu. If you make a
new distro (while Linux audio already sucks regarding too many audio
distros ... please read the link on Robin's website ;) you anyway
shouldn't care too much about the logo, just become the disro without
a logo and without a name, known for what's under the hood.

There are many examples, such as the famous "Silk Cut"
https://s3-eu5.ixquick.com/cgi-bin/serveimage?url=http:%2F%2Fwww.independent.co.uk%2Fmigration_catalog%2Farticle5244553.ece%2Falternates%2Fw620%2FPg-10-saatchi-2.jpeg=d9d07f4bdf4c76b0e8cbf320a87fc496

The brand has got a logo, but they advertised without and even without
a health label in the 80s, so some people didn't know that it has to do
with cigarettes, but those who were aware about it gave them self a pat
on the back.

Logo's and names are less important.

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Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Elementary OS

We are talking more about an audio distro logo, than they talk on LAD
about irregular latencies when using USB audio interfaces.

This is what we are talking about:
https://ixquick-proxy.com/do/spg/show_picture.pl?l=english=https%3A%2F%2Fs3-eu5.ixquick.com%2Fcgi-bin%2Fserveimage%3Furl%3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.uwe-jaekel.de%2Ftypo3temp%2Fpics%2F354f4c079d.jpg%26sp%3Dd6af4d7e47e904ac42bc7e960b5ce535

This is a serious issue:
http://lists.linuxaudio.org/pipermail/linux-audio-dev/2015-September/036074.html

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Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Elementary OS

2015-09-02 Thread Len Ovens


On Wed, 2 Sep 2015, ttoine wrote:


@Ralph,You should have a look at Arturia's new usb2 compliant soundcard, they 
say
that this is the lowest latency ever without specific driver (however they will
provide an asio driver for windows customers)
http://www.arturia.com/audiofuse/overview


The latency they claim has been acheived with other USB2 boxes in the same 
price category. The analog stuff looks nice, but most gets set aside when 
using ADAT/Spdif. It is nice that no analog type things require SW to 
work. However, look also at the MOTU UltraLite AVB. 
http://www.motu.com/products/avb/ultralite-avb which while it has a mixer 
inside that requires SW, that SW is any browser (firefox/chrome/whatever)


There are other similar USB boxes out there too.

The biggest problem I have seen with USB audio is exactly the same as 
with PCI or any other AI. Finding a unique IRQ. This means no other usb 
device on the same hub (external or internal) and no other stuff on the 
same irq as the USB controller. I think it should be possible to detect 
these problems when a USB device is detected and suggest to the user 
another physical USB plug and/or removing another USB device that is 
sharing the same controller. Many MB have one irq that has a number of 
devices connected to it (irq 16 often).


I also use rtirq to separate and raise priority of the USB port that works 
best. So instead of just listing usb, I list "usb3 snd usb" to make sure a 
mouse is not getting higher priority than the AI. I think this is another 
thing that a GUI could assist new users with.



Arturia headquarter is in my area, so I will try to visit them and test how it 
is
working on Ubuntu Studio when I can find time. It comes with all the connections
you might want, and without useless DSP. If it works well I will try to buy it. 
I
know that it is expensive. But this is really a game changer for Linux users !


Buying local is also a great idea.


The fact is I know well what means starting from scratch a project like that, 
for
I did it with Ubuntu Studio. So I am confident this is possible: we already
changed the idea of "producing multimedia with GNU/Linux must be possible out of
the box" in something concrete. Know we need to go ahead and make it really easy
to attract new users.

Of course I can update things. You too. But not alone. We can't do it alone: we
can't buy all the hardware, test it, write doc and help debug. I did that in the


I don't think any of us are in a position to buy a bunch of gear. It would 
make more sense to attract people who already own these things and are 
willing to share their experiences and work to make it better for 
themselves and others. I too have bought some things to use as test boxes 
that I don't use for production. I got lucky with one that I can use as a 
preamp for my production AI.



That is my purpose: how can we attract users, create a more active community,
that would be able to create and maintain useful resources? I am not sure 
anymore
that Ubuntu Studio is still the best way. This is why I started this thread on
the mailing list.


My thought is that US could be as good as any other way. The same problems 
exist either way. Finding people. What I have read here suggests that 
starting something new would loose about half the manpower here now. To go 
forward from there would require finding replacements plus. I think PR is 
the key and I do not think Ubuntu is stopping that. I know that in some 
ways I may be taking what you are saying a different way than you mean  :) 
but I am me and you are you and as with any two people that is the way 
things are.


I do think it is possible for a person to have a dual role as has been 
suggested with packaging for debian as well as working with Studio. While 
working with Studio one can see needs. Then if the fix is not in the 
Studio relm, go where it can be fixed. I have done a number of 
bugfixes/feature additions to Ardour as an example and have written some 
of my own code as well. I have fixed a bug in qmidiroute... if the 
maintainer will just add the one line to the code.


But that is what I happen to be able to do, I am not good with PR at all. 
I am not average in my wants/needs in SW and so what I think is great 
about something may be less than useful to others. When we changed the 
menu, I just realized in configuration what others where able to see 
needed doing. Some of those changes I agree with and others not, but I 
know I have some blind spots and so am ok with doing things I don't always 
agree with. I know that other people add experience that I lack.



With Ubuntu Studio, we have:
 - A website without a clear editorial line, that we can't host without 
Canonical


Actually we could host on our own if we wish.


 - Our wiki is lost on Ubuntu help


We could probably improve this if someone is willing to do the work.


 - We have a small section in the huge Ubuntu forum


But no one to really man anything greater.

Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Elementary OS

On Wed, 2 Sep 2015 10:09:12 +0200, ttoine wrote:
>Ralph,
>I agree with Len, you don't need a pcie sound card, pci is fast enough
>for audio (actually, usb2 is fast enough...) RME did new pcie version
>of their card likely for the mac pro. And the RME driver has been
>developed by an independant guy, not by RME officially. This guy may
>not have the time anymore to work on the driver. Or he still have a
>pci RME soundcard, and he might find that this is good enough.
>About midi jitter with usb sound cards, I don't know. I use an Akai
>pmd18 without any issue. If there are some tests I can do to check,
>let me know. It might also depend on the midi chipset, no ?

I was in contact with RME and with the Linux guy, I'm aware about all
this. You missed the point. At that time Linux developers recommended
the PCIe RME card. With one thing they were right, it nowadays is not
easy to get mobos with PCI slots, so regarding this PCIe was the right
choice, assumed there should be the need to replace my mobo. However,
they were mistaken regarding the support, even the Linux driver
developer is mistaken regarding the quality of his work.

My point is, that it's even nearly impossible for an experienced user
like me to buy Linux compatible hardware. I often got other hardware
that was mentioned as Linux compatible, but some revisions were not and
other hardware didn't work in combination with some other hardware.

Windows and Mac user seldom run into such issues, while a lot of
inexperienced Linux users can't avoid it.

The best test regarding MIDI jitter is listening, another test is

https://github.com/koppi/alsa-midi-latency-test , unfortunately it
measures a loop, the measured system measures itself, so the validity
of this test is limited, but not completely useless.

I didn't read the links, at least I made tests years later that are
available somewhere in the LAU, LAD, Qtractor, Ubuntu Studio, 64 Studio
archives. To make a long story short, my PCI TerraTec cards and my RME
PCIe card have much better test results than my swissonic USB interface.

I'm aware how to unbind evil USB ports, IOW I'm also aware what USB
port to use for MIDI and how to make it head of the USB ports. To do
this you need to launch a terminal emulation. I doubt that there's any
chance that optimising this could be automated. This not only is an
issue for Linux workstations. USB isn't a good choice. I suspect that
the issue with galvanic isolation for expensive USB audio devices is
solved, since the missing galvanic isolation when using USB MIDI was
another argument against USB MIDI.

Years ago "koppi", Jakob Flierl from Augsburg send me a
circuit board with MIDI in to MIDI throu (out). By a tap the MIDI
signal is connected by a resistor to cinch, so it's possible to
record the signal parallel by a MIDI and audio track. For several
reasons I didn't use the circuit board. I might to it in the future.

I didn't remember his email address and wasn't aware that he's the
coder of the ALSA latency test, so I'll try to drop him a note within
the next days.

Regards,
Ralf

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Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Elementary OS

On Wed, 2 Sep 2015 11:02:12 +0200, Set Hallstrom wrote:
>Sometimes, when my converted friends need help (which is incredibly
>seldom), i send them the terminal command to cut and paste because it's
>faster than writing a how to for the GUI: "open this app, go into that
>menu, click on "magicschwizzle button", browse to the voila-tab, enter
>value "X" under tudulu, click accept, restart program" Obviously,
>my personal experience has NO relevancy to the majority, but my friends
>always tell me with pride that they fell like a hacker :D And i like
>that. By helping them solve the solution this way, i'm indirectly
>teaching them how the terminal works, what a directory looks like in
>text, and so guiding them to better understand their own computing.

That's my point of view too.

A user needs to know what GUI to use.
A user needs to know how to use the GUI.

It's the same for the terminal.

A user needs to know what command to use.
A user needs to know how to use the command.

It's the same learning curve and for both the same time is needed to
learn it, but only the command line can really provide all that is
needed.

I remember back when I learned to program computers. It was a C64. It's
easier to program Assembler, than to program BASIC. Nothing is more
powerful than Assembler, Assembler is machine code, just the numbers of
the operation code is translated to three letter abbreviations. E.g.
"mov" is for "move", the real op code for "mov" is a hex
number, something like "10" or "ab", but you don't need to know the
cryptic numbers. FWIW "mov" is not used by the C64 CPU, it provides
"ldx" and "stx", for "load" and "store" instead of "move", to "move"
data. It sounds more abstract, so it's daunting, but de facto it's less
abstract than higher languages such as BASIC and much easier to learn
and to use than BASIC, at least for special tasks, sure a "Hello
world!" can be easier written in BASIC.

It's similar for GUI vs command line on Linux. If you want to write an
email to send "Hello world" it's easier to do using a GUI, than e.g.
using nano and msmtp or any other editor without a GUI and sendmail
replacement. If you want to set up an audio workstation, or even restore
an audio session, command line, respl. scripts are much easier to use.

With a script you simply need to launch all apps, then run aj-snashot
to save or restore all connections and if you like you could use
wmctrl to move the launched apps to different workspaces. Nothing gets
lost, nothing will break by updates, no learning curve for the user who
anyway does use the terminal. For GUIs there's always a new learning
curve, each update could break things and many people lost data when
they used session managers.

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Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Elementary OS

On Wed, 2 Sep 2015 12:09:28 +0200, Set Hallstrom wrote:
>On 2015-09-02 11:55, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
>> My point is, that it's even nearly impossible for an experienced user
>> like me to buy Linux compatible hardware. I often got other hardware
>> that was mentioned as Linux compatible, but some revisions were not
>> and other hardware didn't work in combination with some other
>> hardware.
>> 
>> Windows and Mac user seldom run into such issues, while a lot of
>> inexperienced Linux users can't avoid it.
>
>This makes me feel like i'm going to break a leg soon. I've never had
>any problem finding hardware. Scanners, AIs, graphic cards,
>midicontrolers PCIe-cards What am i doing right?

You just have good luck and much money.

I not necessarily buy my hardware. I use hardware from trash, I borrow
hardware from neighbours.

What you find in a trash can or what your neighbours lend you most
likely can be used with a Windows machine, but not with a Linux machine.


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Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Elementary OS

2015-09-02 Thread Len Ovens


On Wed, 2 Sep 2015, Ralf Mardorf wrote:


On Wed, 2 Sep 2015 12:09:28 +0200, Set Hallstrom wrote:

On 2015-09-02 11:55, Ralf Mardorf wrote:



Windows and Mac user seldom run into such issues, while a lot of
inexperienced Linux users can't avoid it.


This makes me feel like i'm going to break a leg soon. I've never had
any problem finding hardware. Scanners, AIs, graphic cards,
midicontrolers PCIe-cards What am i doing right?


You just have good luck and much money.


Actually, just the oposite. The cheaper AIs are more used and better 
supported.



I not necessarily buy my hardware. I use hardware from trash, I borrow
hardware from neighbours.

What you find in a trash can or what your neighbours lend you most
likely can be used with a Windows machine, but not with a Linux machine.


That has generally not been my experience. Most likely they tossed it 
because windows doesn't work with it any more. There have been times when 
as much as 80% of my running HW was "hand me down".


That said, I was careful with my new MB/CPU purchase... but that is 1 out 
of 6 Linux machines in the house.



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Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Elementary OS

2015-09-02 Thread Set Hallström

On 2015-09-02 12:36, Ralf Mardorf wrote:

> I not necessarily buy my hardware. I use hardware from trash, I borrow
> hardware from neighbours.
>
> What you find in a trash can or what your neighbours lend you most
> likely can be used with a Windows machine, but not with a Linux machine.

Me too, and its not like i can order specific things with a specific
revision from my local trashbins. One of the reasons i thought this was a
non-issue is that EVERYTHING i have found in the trash worked out
of the ehm... trashbox.

So yeah, Luck, it seems so.. (touching wood touching wood twitwitwi)
much moneyleeel :D compared to the average citizen of India,
probably. This said, the few things i have bought new, i researched first and
never had any problem.

There might be a red thread in my "luck": i don't care so much for the
"latest stuff". I'm happy with 24bits 96khz. (Ray Charles made better than
me with an 8 track taperecorder.) or 12 megapixel camera as long as well, it
works on GNU/Linux.

But i can see why others want to be on the edge of equipment.

Sorry for OT, i guess i got a bit provoked by that "much money" thing :D  <3

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Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Elementary OS

I also don't have issue with my hardware (sound card, printer, scanner,
camera, ...), be it brand new or second hand.

I chose to move to usb2 class compliant 3 years ago to avoid issues with
alsa-firmware (I was fed up reporting bugs or having to find one working
device before buying...). For pure audio work, it is great. For midi, I
have to check but I remember playing at 3ms with my Akai pad and Hydrogen,
while recording on Ardour. And 3ms is something we can play: old digital
synth ran around 8ms, and on stage, when you are many meters away from your
amp you have more than 10ms in some cases. What is great with usb2 class
compliant audio devices, is that any device working with Apple iPad will
work out of the box with Linux.

So maybe, what we need is to build a small database of recommended and
tested devices. So people can be sure that it is working well on Ubuntu
Studio. It means also avoiding products with different revisions (if we can
not test all revisions), that kind of things.

Do you think we can do that on Ubuntu Studio website ? or do we need to
create another website ? or Ubuntu wiki, but not sure that a lot of people
will actually read it ? And please, I know alsa-project and ffado, this is
not a great help for beginners with Linux.

Maybe we should try to contact Canonical and see if they could create a
certifying program for multimedia hardware ?

Antoine THOMAS
Tél: 0663137906

2015-09-02 14:19 GMT+02:00 Set Hallström :

> On 2015-09-02 12:36, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
>
> > I not necessarily buy my hardware. I use hardware from trash, I borrow
> > hardware from neighbours.
> >
> > What you find in a trash can or what your neighbours lend you most
> > likely can be used with a Windows machine, but not with a Linux machine.
>
> Me too, and its not like i can order specific things with a specific
> revision from my local trashbins. One of the reasons i thought this was a
> non-issue is that EVERYTHING i have found in the trash worked out
> of the ehm... trashbox.
>
> So yeah, Luck, it seems so.. (touching wood touching wood twitwitwi)
> much moneyleeel :D compared to the average citizen of India,
> probably. This said, the few things i have bought new, i researched first
> and
> never had any problem.
>
> There might be a red thread in my "luck": i don't care so much for the
> "latest stuff". I'm happy with 24bits 96khz. (Ray Charles made better than
> me with an 8 track taperecorder.) or 12 megapixel camera as long as well,
> it
> works on GNU/Linux.
>
> But i can see why others want to be on the edge of equipment.
>
> Sorry for OT, i guess i got a bit provoked by that "much money" thing :D
> <3
>
> --
> Set
>
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Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Elementary OS

While this is interesting for advanced users, those information are not
accurate and not updated...

For beginners this is still complicated. And there is nothing about
professional video equipment.


Antoine THOMAS
Tél: 0663137906

2015-09-02 16:02 GMT+02:00 Kaj Ailomaa :

> On Wed, Sep 2, 2015, at 03:09 PM, ttoine wrote:
> > I also don't have issue with my hardware (sound card, printer, scanner,
> > camera, ...), be it brand new or second hand.
> >
> > I chose to move to usb2 class compliant 3 years ago to avoid issues with
> > alsa-firmware (I was fed up reporting bugs or having to find one working
> > device before buying...). For pure audio work, it is great. For midi, I
> > have to check but I remember playing at 3ms with my Akai pad and
> > Hydrogen,
> > while recording on Ardour. And 3ms is something we can play: old digital
> > synth ran around 8ms, and on stage, when you are many meters away from
> > your
> > amp you have more than 10ms in some cases. What is great with usb2 class
> > compliant audio devices, is that any device working with Apple iPad will
> > work out of the box with Linux.
> >
> > So maybe, what we need is to build a small database of recommended and
> > tested devices. So people can be sure that it is working well on Ubuntu
> > Studio. It means also avoiding products with different revisions (if we
> > can
> > not test all revisions), that kind of things.
> >
> > Do you think we can do that on Ubuntu Studio website ? or do we need to
> > create another website ? or Ubuntu wiki, but not sure that a lot of
> > people
> > will actually read it ? And please, I know alsa-project and ffado, this
> > is
> > not a great help for beginners with Linux.
> >
> > Maybe we should try to contact Canonical and see if they could create a
> > certifying program for multimedia hardware ?
> >
> >
>
> There are plenty of database already, as I'm sure you know.
> Aside from alsa and ffado, this is pretty good for audio devices
> http://wiki.linuxaudio.org/wiki/hardware_matrix.
>
> There's a wiki page dedicated to all sorts of hardware support for
> Ubuntu Studio here
> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio/SupportedHardware.
> Please, feel free to change or edit it in any way you like.
>
> There's no documentation on our website at all at the moment, but that
> is simply because no one is doing it, so if someone wants to set that
> up, please do. I think the help wiki is better for detailed information
> that may require to be changed often, while the website is great for
> general and more static information, with links to more detailed
> information.
>
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Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Elementary OS