Re: number padless?

[ChiGuy]

oh, duh, not the function key, that makes more sense.

Well I tried that here in FF, and did not work, but did in Wordpad, so I
guess it's another MS or Windows situation, right?

Well that is better than before, and it led me to find out much more about
Unicode.  So thanks again!

On 6 August 2010 22:19, Murray Sargent wrote:

>  Type F1 alt+x, where F1 means the letter F key followed by the 1 key, not
> Function key 1. U+00F1 is the Unicode value of ñ. In general to type in a
> character by its Unicode value, type in the hex value and then alt+x. E.g.,
> to type in math italic a, type 1D44E alt+x , which gives 𝑎.
>
>
>
> Murray
>

Re: number padless?

[Lorna Priest]

>> Quickie question-
>> I got a new laptop, but there is no number pad.  Not even one integrated
>> with the function keys.
>> Any idea how I can make special characters for which the number pad is
>> required?
>> Example:  In Spanish, tomorrow is mañana.  How can I make the enye (code
>> was alt-0241, made now with the charmap) with the keyboard?

You could turn on a Spanish keyboard. It is generally on the key where the 
semicolon is.

Lorna

RE: number padless?

[Murray Sargent]

Type F1 alt+x, where F1 means the letter F key followed by the 1 key, not 
Function key 1. U+00F1 is the Unicode value of ñ. In general to type in a 
character by its Unicode value, type in the hex value and then alt+x. E.g., to 
type in math italic a, type 1D44E alt+x , which gives 𝑎.

Murray

Re: number padless?

[ChiGuy]

Hey all,
Thanks for your replies.  I am running Windows XP.
But the characters and shortcuts I refer to (such as the enye, the ñ,
alt-0241) can be typed in any program.  I even just did so in Firefox's
address bar.
Murray, I tried your options, but they did not work.  I tried them again in
WordPad, and the ctrl-shift-~-n works.  But the F! alt-x does not, I can't
avoid the help screen.  Can you elaborate on that one?  Or are there any
other ideas?
BTW, I saw on the unicode website that the code is 00F1.  How is that to be
interpreted?

thanks!

On 6 August 2010 19:23, Murray Sargent wrote:

>  In some Microsoft products, e.g., Word, WordPad, OneNote and Outlook, you
> can type ctrl+~ followed by n to get ñ. Or you can type F1 alt+x to get ñ.
> The alt+x conversion of hex Unicode values is easier than the alt+numpad
> approach, since the Unicode Standard is in hex.
>
>  nn
>
> Murray
>
>
>
> *From:* unicode-bou...@unicode.org [mailto:unicode-bou...@unicode.org] *On
> Behalf Of *ChiGuy
> *Sent:* Friday, August 06, 2010 2:55 PM
>
> *To:* unicode@unicode.org
> *Subject:* number padless?
>
>
>
> Hey all,
>
>
> Quickie question-
> I got a new laptop, but there is no number pad.  Not even one integrated
> with the function keys.
> Any idea how I can make special characters for which the number pad is
> required?
> Example:  In Spanish, tomorrow is mañana.  How can I make the enye (code
> was alt-0241, made now with the charmap) with the keyboard?
>
> thanks!
>

Re: number padless?

[David Perry]

It all depends on what language(s) you need, how often you need to enter
non-English characters, and what software you use.

For occasional use, there's charmap (as you have discovered) or, if you
use a word processor such as MS Word or OpenOffice WRiter that provides
an Insert/Symbol type of function, you can get the characters that way.
 But that's too slow for frequent use.  Or, in Word, type the Unicode
hex value for the character you want and then Alt-x.  There's also an
OpenOffice add-in that provides this functionality.

Install the US-International keyboard, which provides access to
characters needed for western European languages and is quite convenient.

If you need characters non on the US-International kbd, install one of
the many language-specific keyboards that ship with Windows, or if
necessary make your own using the Microsoft Keyboard Layout Creator.

You can set it up so that Alt-Left Shift will cycle through the various
keyboards you have installed.  Consult the Windows help system if you
don't know how to install additional languages and keyboards.

David

ChiGuy wrote:

Hey all,

Quickie question-
I got a new laptop, but there is no number pad.  Not even one integrated 
with the function keys.
Any idea how I can make special characters for which the number pad is 
required?
Example:  In Spanish, tomorrow is mañana.  How can I make the enye (code 
was alt-0241, made now with the charmap) with the keyboard?


thanks!

RE: number padless?

[Murray Sargent]

In some Microsoft products, e.g., Word, WordPad, OneNote and Outlook, you can 
type ctrl+~ followed by n to get ñ. Or you can type F1 alt+x to get ñ. The 
alt+x conversion of hex Unicode values is easier than the alt+numpad approach, 
since the Unicode Standard is in hex.

Murray

From: unicode-bou...@unicode.org [mailto:unicode-bou...@unicode.org] On Behalf 
Of ChiGuy
Sent: Friday, August 06, 2010 2:55 PM
To: unicode@unicode.org
Subject: number padless?

Hey all,

Quickie question-
I got a new laptop, but there is no number pad.  Not even one integrated with 
the function keys.
Any idea how I can make special characters for which the number pad is required?
Example:  In Spanish, tomorrow is mañana.  How can I make the enye (code was 
alt-0241, made now with the charmap) with the keyboard?

thanks!

number padless?

[ChiGuy]

Hey all,

Quickie question-
I got a new laptop, but there is no number pad.  Not even one integrated
with the function keys.
Any idea how I can make special characters for which the number pad is
required?
Example:  In Spanish, tomorrow is mañana.  How can I make the enye (code was
alt-0241, made now with the charmap) with the keyboard?

thanks!

Re: Indian new rupee sign

[Tulasi]

On 8/3/10, Mahesh T. Pai  wrote:
> Peter Constable said on Wed, Aug 04, 2010 at 01:09:32AM +,:
>  >
>  > > a claim of IPR of any kind, and unhindered use are incompatible.
>  >
>  > Are you saying that in your capacity as an IPR lawyer? ;-)
>
> No.  I am no longer a laweyr for past 5 years, I am in employment.
>
>  > If the owner of IP grants unhindered use, they are not incompatible.
>
> Definitely, you are correct.
>
> Question is, is such an explicit permission necessary?
>
> If I call myself "Mahesh", do I need to grant an explicit license to
> enable you to address me as  "Mahesh" in a public forum?
>
> If "Mahesh" was substituted with a symbol, would it make any
> differentce? There is no need, IMHO.
>
> Philippe was suggesting otherwise, in spite of Govt. of India's
> proposal.
>
>  >  Of course, the statement also implicitly assumes that unhindered
>  > use is what is desirable. It may be in some situations, but not in
>  > others.

Thank you Mahesh!
For explaining this complex thing.
Can you help understand following as well.

Suppose you design something using Hindi-alphabet "Ra" as the basis.
Then someone else calls your design basis is Latin-letter "R" and
re-designs what you designed and then publishes accordingly.

Where does this fall exactly?
(meaning plagiarism Copyright abuse, etc)

Thanks again,

Tulasi

Re: [OT]: a strange language name abbreviation (was: How to encode reversed section sign?)

[Kenneth Whistler]

> Exploring the dictionary with the search engine (which is operational
> since today morning ...) I discovered two occurences of an unexplained
> abbreviation which refers to a language in which "silvir" means
> "silver" and "ses" means "six". The name of the language is
> abbreviated as "Kimr."
> 
> Any ideas what the abbreviation is supposed to mean?

Well, one possibility would be Crimean Gothic. The corpus
does indeed include a word for six "seis" and a word for
silver "siluir".

See:

http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/eieol/gotol-10-R.html

--Ken

Re: [OT]: a strange language name abbreviation

[António MARTINS-Tuválkin]

On 2010.08.06, 21:42, Janusz S. Bien  wrote:

> two occurences of an unexplained abbreviation which refers to a 
> language in which "silvir" means "silver" and "ses" means "six". The 
> name of the language is abbreviated as "Kimr."
>
> Any ideas what the abbreviation is supposed to mean?

Welsh? (probably not Gimr < http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kimr_people >.)

-- 
António MARTINS-Tuválkin.
  |  ()|
 Não me invejo de quem tem ||
PT-1500-111 LISBOA   carros, parelhas e montes  |
+351 934 821 700, +351 212 463 477   só me invejo de quem bebe  |
ICQ:193279138  http://tuvalkin.web.pt/   a água em todas as fontes  |
-
De sable uma fonte e bordadura escaqueada de jalde e goles, por timbre a 
bandeira, por mote o 1º verso acima, e por grito de guerra "Mi rajtas!".
-

Re: Draft Proposal to add Variation Sequences for Latin and Cyrillic letters

[Michael Everson]

Yeah, well, I am not convinced of the merits of your proposal. Sorry.


On 6 Aug 2010, at 22:20, Karl Pentzlin wrote:

> Am Dienstag, 3. August 2010 um 09:45 schrieb Michael Everson:
> 
> ME> ... In particular the implications
> ME> for Serbian orthography would be most unwelcome.
> 
> As I have outlined in the revised introduction of my proposal,
> there are *no* implications for Serbian orthography.
> Admittedly, this was a little bit implicit in my first draft.
> 
> - Karl Pentzlin
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/

Re: long s

[Karl Pentzlin]

Am Donnerstag, 5. August 2010 um 18:34 schrieb Janusz S. Bień:

JSB> Would you be so kind to give an example of a real-life application
JSB> when it is really needed?

Fraktur was in widespread use in Germany until 1941 (when the Nazis
forbade it due to a perceived similarity to the Hebrew script) and in
the German-speaking parts fo Switzerland until 1946. It is still used
by hobbyists, revival activists, and as an "old-fashioned" style.
Thus, there are texts displayable in Fraktur (i.e. containing long s).
When you want to display these (modern) texts in Roman (Antiqua), you
usually do not want to see the long s. If then you devise a variation
sequence coming into effect which devises the long s to be displayed
like a round s in when using Roman/Antiqua script variant implicitly
by a higher-level protocol, you can obtain this without recoding.
(The "implicit application" was somewhat hidden in my first draft,
it is described more concise in my final version. However, in that
version I have dropped the s variants; maybe they will appear in a
later separate proposal.)

JSB> BTW, is "round s" in the meaning used in your proposal an official or
JSB> widespread term?

It is a literally translation of German "Rund-S" which means the
common "s" form in opposition to a "Lang-S" (long s).

- Karl Pentzlin

Re: long s (was: Draft Proposal to add Variation Sequences for Latin and Cyrillic letters)

[Karl Pentzlin]

Am Mittwoch, 4. August 2010 um 22:44 schrieb ich:

KP> However, in my next version, I will replace the "s" variants by "long s" 
variants:
KP> 017F FE00 ...LONG S VARIANT-1  ... STANDARD FORM
KP>  · will be displayed long in any script variants
KP> 017F FE01 ...LONG S VARIANT-1 FLEXIBLE FORM (naming provisionally)
KP>  · will be displayed long in Fraktur, Gaelic, and similar script 
variants
KP>  · will usually be displayed round when used with Roman type
KP> This has the advantage, especially when implicit application of variation 
sequences
KP> is possible, it can be applied to existing data without change.

In the final version of my proposal, I have completely dropped this,
as this subject obviously needs a separate discussion in a separate proposal.

- Karl Pentzlin

Re: Draft Proposal to add Variation Sequences for Latin and Cyrillic letters

[Karl Pentzlin]

Am Donnerstag, 5. August 2010 um 12:31 schrieb William_J_G Overington:

WO> Yet what if one wants to use the precomposed g circumflex character?

To search in the text of the Unicode standard for "canonical
equivalence" is helpful in this case for end users as well as for font
designers and for programmers of rendering systems.

- Karl Pentzlin

Re: Draft Proposal to add Variation Sequences for Latin and Cyrillic letters

[Karl Pentzlin]

Am Dienstag, 3. August 2010 um 09:45 schrieb Michael Everson:

ME> ... In particular the implications
ME> for Serbian orthography would be most unwelcome.

As I have outlined in the revised introduction of my proposal,
there are *no* implications for Serbian orthography.
Admittedly, this was a little bit implicit in my first draft.

- Karl Pentzlin

Re: [OT]: a strange language name abbreviation

[Mark E. Shoulson]

On 08/06/2010 04:42 PM, Janusz S. Bień wrote:

Exploring the dictionary with the search engine (which is operational
since today morning ...) I discovered two occurences of an unexplained
abbreviation which refers to a language in which "silvir" means
"silver" and "ses" means "six". The name of the language is
abbreviated as "Kimr."
   


I don't know about "silvir", but "ses" is six in Esperanto, and in 
Esperanto, Welsh is "kimra" (from Cymro/Cymraeg).  Does that fit the 
context?


~mark

Re: [OT]: a strange language name abbreviation

[Mark E. Shoulson]

On 08/06/2010 04:42 PM, Janusz S. Bień wrote:

Exploring the dictionary with the search engine (which is operational
since today morning ...) I discovered two occurences of an unexplained
abbreviation which refers to a language in which "silvir" means
"silver" and "ses" means "six". The name of the language is
abbreviated as "Kimr."

Any ideas what the abbreviation is supposed to mean?
   

Uuh... Another possibility is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kimr_people which 
says they speak a language called Gimr, which perhaps is spelled with a K 
sometimes...  I think I'll stop now.

~mark

Re: Draft Proposal to add Variation Sequences for Latin and Cyrillic letters

[Karl Pentzlin]

Am Freitag, 6. August 2010 um 11:08 schrieb "Martin J. Dürst":

MJD> The Web may finally get to solve this problem, although it may still
MJD> take some time to be fully deployed. Please see http://www.w3.org/Fonts/
MJD> for more details and pointers.

Variation sequences are a means to support this goal, as they provide
font developers with a standardized and easy understandable means,
which unburdens the font designers as well as the site designers who
decide which font they offer for their intended users of their content.

- Karl Pentzlin

Re: Draft Proposal to add Variation Sequences for Latin and Cyrillic letters

[Karl Pentzlin]

Am Dienstag, 3. August 2010 um 02:04 schrieb ich:

KP> I have compiled a draft proposal:
KP> Proposal to add Variation Sequences for Latin and Cyrillic letters

In the meantime, I have submitted a final version to the UTC
(L2/10-280), as the UTC starts upcoming Monday (2010-08-09).
For those who do not have access to L2, it is also found at:
http://www.pentzlin.com/Variation-Sequences-Latin-Cyrillic.pdf (4.4 MB).

Thank you to all who participated on the discussions on this list.
According to your hints, I have:
· dropped the proposed variants for Latin small letter s
  (addressing Fraktur/Blackletter), as the special aspects of these
  are to be handled in a separate proposal (if such will be done).
· dropped the "unspecific" variants for Latin small letter a and g,
· rewritten substantial parts of the introduction, to be more concise
  at the points which had raised questions on this list and elsewhere.

- Karl Pentzlin

[OT]: a strange language name abbreviation (was: How to encode reversed section sign?)

[Janusz S. Bień]

On Fri, 06 Aug 2010  jsb...@mimuw.edu.pl (Janusz S. Bień) wrote:

> An important 19th century dictionary of Polish uses two kinds of
> section sign, illustrated in the attachment, there is over 5000
> occurrences of the characters. Dirty OCR interpreted both of them as
> the letter g, so you can see most of them visiting
>
>http://poliqarp.wbl.klf.uw.edu.pl/slownik-lindego
>
> switching on graphical concordances and using the query
>
>g "\." within body

Exploring the dictionary with the search engine (which is operational
since today morning ...) I discovered two occurences of an unexplained
abbreviation which refers to a language in which "silvir" means
"silver" and "ses" means "six". The name of the language is
abbreviated as "Kimr."

Any ideas what the abbreviation is supposed to mean?

The question is obviously off of the topic of the list but my
curiosity is so strong that I was unable to resist...

Best regards

Janusz

-- 
 ,   
dr hab. Janusz S. Bien, prof. UW -  Uniwersytet Warszawski (Katedra Lingwistyki 
Formalnej)
Prof. Janusz S. Bien - Warsaw University (Department of Formal Linguistics)
jsb...@uw.edu.pl, jsb...@mimuw.edu.pl, http://fleksem.klf.uw.edu.pl/~jsbien/

Re: Accessing alternate glyphs from plain text (from Re: Draft Proposal to add Variation Sequences for Latin and Cyrillic letters)

[John H. Jenkins]

On Aug 6, 2010, at 3:03 AM, William_J_G Overington wrote:

> The standards organizations have a great opportunity to advance typography by 
> defining some of the Latin letter plus variation selector pairs so that 
> alternate glyphs within a font may be accessed directly from plain text.
> 

This is another case of a solution in search of a problem.  It isn't Unicode's 
business to advance typography, and in any event, typesetting plain text isn't 
the path to good typography.  Other technologies, such as OpenType, AAT, and 
Graphite, *do* have the job of making good typography easy and accessible.  
And, mirabile dictu, they can already do what you are suggesting here for plain 
text.  

Unicode's responsibility is to deal with existing needs.  If it is common for 
poets to use various letter shapes at the end of words to convey some semantic 
meaning, and if they do this in their emails or tweets, or if they're 
complaining that this is something that they want to do but can't, then Unicode 
and plain text provide a proper way to help them.  

=
Hoani H. Tinikini
John H. Jenkins
jenk...@apple.com

Re: Accessing alternate glyphs from plain text (from Re: Draft Proposal to add Variation Sequences for Latin and Cyrillic letters)

[Asmus Freytag]

On 8/6/2010 2:03 AM, William_J_G Overington wrote:

On Thursday, 5 August 2010, Kenneth Whistler  wrote:
 
  

I am thinking of where a poet might specify an ending version of a glyph at the 
end of the last word on some lines, yet not on others, for poetic effect. I 
think that it would be good if one could specify that in plain text.
  
 
  

Why can't a poet find a poetic means of doing that, instead of depending on a 
standards organization to provide a standard means of doing so in plain text? 
Seems kind of anti-poetic to me. ;-)

 
  

--Ken

 
Well, I was just suggesting an example. I am not an expert on poetry.
  

What you mean are artistic or stylistic variants.

These have certain problems, see here for an explanation: 
http://www.unicode.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=221#p221


A./
 
  

Re: How to encode reversed section sign?

[Janusz S. Bień]

On Fri, 6 Aug 2010  Joó Ádám  wrote:

> Nevertheless, our typesetter had those types for some reason. Or do
> you think that – given its different style – it was only a glyph
> variant of some other font?

That's what André suggested and it might be true.

Looks like nobody was interested in this question before so I have to
make my own investigations :-) I've located only one book prepared by
the same typesetter, but it seems it does not contain any form of the
section sign.

Best regards

Janusz

-- 
 ,   
dr hab. Janusz S. Bien, prof. UW -  Uniwersytet Warszawski (Katedra Lingwistyki 
Formalnej)
Prof. Janusz S. Bien - Warsaw University (Department of Formal Linguistics)
jsb...@uw.edu.pl, jsb...@mimuw.edu.pl, http://fleksem.klf.uw.edu.pl/~jsbien/

Re: How to encode reversed section sign?

[André Szabolcs Szelp]

I have indicated already in my first mail that having those characters
in his typecase might mean something. However I'd be wary to encode a
character based on a single usage which does not even make a
distinction to the ordinary section sign.

Nonetheless, it seems quite probable that other documents using that
printer's type will surface. However, until then we cannot determine,
whether it was just an error made by the type cutter (which might
happen), or intentional and used in contrast.

/Sz

2010/8/6 Joó Ádám :
> Nevertheless, our typesetter had those types for some reason. Or do
> you think that – given its different style – it was only a glyph
> variant of some other font?
>
>
> Ádám
>

Re: How to encode reversed section sign?

[Joó Ádám]

Nevertheless, our typesetter had those types for some reason. Or do
you think that – given its different style – it was only a glyph
variant of some other font?


Ádám

Fwd: How to encode reversed section sign?

[André Szabolcs Szelp]

Please see Janusz' answers. (He pressed "reply" instead of "reply  
all", I suppose).

/Sz

Begin forwarded message:


From: jsb...@mimuw.edu.pl (Janusz S. Bień)
Date: 2010. augusztus 6. 14:50:58 GMT+02:00
To: André Szabolcs Szelp 
Subject: Re: How to encode reversed section sign?
Reply-To: jsb...@mimuw.edu.pl

On Fri, 6 Aug 2010  André Szabolcs Szelp   
wrote:



Hi, Janusz,


it would be valueable information whether the reversed section sign
encodes any other semantic than the normal one.


It seemed to me that they are semantically different but now I think I
was wrong. I've checked the first edition of the dictionary and it
uses only one form of section sign.



It would help looking at the "key" of the dictionary which explains
symbols and their usage,


The very dictionary has practically no explicit explanations of  
symbols

used.


as it might well be, that the typesetter ran
out of normal section signs composing a page, and used that one
instead.


I think now it was probably the case.



On the other hand, if he had the reversed one at hand, that could  
mean

that it was used otherwhere as well... but then, looking at the
glyphs, this reversed one is definitely from a different typeface, so
it still might be a "character substitution", to speak in digital
manners of an analogue process


Thanks for you valuable comments.

Janusz

--
,
dr hab. Janusz S. Bien, prof. UW -  Uniwersytet Warszawski (Katedra  
Lingwistyki Formalnej)
Prof. Janusz S. Bien - Warsaw University (Department of Formal  
Linguistics)

jsb...@uw.edu.pl, jsb...@mimuw.edu.pl, http://fleksem.klf.uw.edu.pl/~jsbien/

Re: CSUR Tonal

[Andrew West]

On 6 August 2010 11:03, Kent Karlsson  wrote:
>
> Den 2010-08-06 11.02, skrev "Andrew West" :
>> Looking at the examples shown on
>> , it seems to me that
>> 0-8 are ordinary digits, and the symbols for 9 through 15 are inverted
>> or inverted+modified forms of the digits '7' through '1', so that
>> there is some sort of imperfect bilateral symmetry on the clock and
>> compass faces, with '0' and '8' as the axis of symmetry. Thus the '9'
>> is an inverted '6' (as 16-6=10) not an ordinary '9'. So except for the
>> odd glyph forms for 9, 11, 12 and 15 (would be be expected to be
>> simple inversions of '7', '5', '4' and '1') it makes sense as a system
>> to me.
>
> Nyström himself writes
> (http://books.google.com/books?id=aNYGYAAJ&pg=PA105&source=gbs_selected_
> pages&cad=0_1#v=onepage&q&f=false):
>
> "In the Tonal System it is proposed to add six new figures to the 10
> arabic"... (page 15)
> and
> "Although the old figures in the Tonal System bears the old value (except 9)
> one by one"... (page 17)

This simply means that he is adding six new glyphs (or types), and
that he considered that there was no need to cast a new type for the
symbol corresponding to decimal 10 as it is looks the same as the
pre-existing digit '9' -- however it is clear (e.g. from the rulers on
the plate before the title page at
http://books.google.com/books?id=aNYGYAAJ) that this '9' is
logically an inverted '6' and therefore should not be unified with
U+0039.

Andrew

Re: CSUR Tonal

[André Szabolcs Szelp]

> Looking at the examples shown on
> , it seems to me that
> 0-8 are ordinary digits, and the symbols for 9 through 15 are inverted
> or inverted+modified forms of the digits '7' through '1', so that
> there is some sort of imperfect bilateral symmetry on the clock and
> compass faces, with '0' and '8' as the axis of symmetry. Thus the '9'
> is an inverted '6' (as 16-6=10) not an ordinary '9'. So except for the
> odd glyph forms for 9, 11, 12 and 15 (would be be expected to be
> simple inversions of '7', '5', '4' and '1') it makes sense as a system
> to me.

Very good observation!

/Sz

Re: CSUR Tonal

[Kent Karlsson]

Den 2010-08-06 11.02, skrev "Andrew West" :

> On 6 August 2010 05:14, Doug Ewell  wrote:
>> 
>> What makes this troublesome for me is that, on the one hand, there are the
>> perfectly ordinary-looking 0 through 8, and on the other hand there are the
>> invented digits for 9 and 11 through 15, and then in the middle there's this
>> bizarre use of an ordinary 9-glyph to mean decimal 10. That's what messes it
>> up for me and makes me think the '9' isn't really a 9, and what the heck,
>> maybe none of the "ordinary" digits are what they appear to be, so let's
>> CSUR-encode all of them.
> 
> Looking at the examples shown on
> , it seems to me that
> 0-8 are ordinary digits, and the symbols for 9 through 15 are inverted
> or inverted+modified forms of the digits '7' through '1', so that
> there is some sort of imperfect bilateral symmetry on the clock and
> compass faces, with '0' and '8' as the axis of symmetry. Thus the '9'
> is an inverted '6' (as 16-6=10) not an ordinary '9'. So except for the
> odd glyph forms for 9, 11, 12 and 15 (would be be expected to be
> simple inversions of '7', '5', '4' and '1') it makes sense as a system
> to me.
> 
> Anyhow, I do not think the ordinary digits '0' through '8' should be
> encoded in the CSUR.

Nyström himself writes
(http://books.google.com/books?id=aNYGYAAJ&pg=PA105&source=gbs_selected_
pages&cad=0_1#v=onepage&q&f=false):

"In the Tonal System it is proposed to add six new figures to the 10
arabic"... (page 15)
and 
"Although the old figures in the Tonal System bears the old value (except 9)
one by one"... (page 17)

/kent k

Re: How to encode reversed section sign?

[André Szabolcs Szelp]

Hi, Janusz,


it would be valueable information whether the reversed section sign
encodes any other semantic than the normal one.

It would help looking at the "key" of the dictionary which explains
symbols and their usage, as it might well be, that the typesetter ran
out of normal section signs composing a page, and used that one
instead.

On the other hand, if he had the reversed one at hand, that could mean
that it was used otherwhere as well... but then, looking at the
glyphs, this reversed one is definitely from a different typeface, so
it still might be a "character substitution", to speak in digital
manners of an analogue process


/Sz

2010/8/6 Janusz S. Bień :
>
> An important 19th century dictionary of Polish uses two kinds of
> section sign, illustrated in the attachment, there is over 5000
> occurrences of the characters. Dirty OCR interpreted both of them as
> the letter g, so you can see most of them visiting
>
>   http://poliqarp.wbl.klf.uw.edu.pl/slownik-lindego
>
> switching on graphical concordances and using the query
>
>   g "\." within body
>
> Are you familiar with the reversed section sign? It is highly
> improbable that the character has been designed especially for the
> dictionary, but I am not aware of any other use of it.
>
> Does it deserve to be included in the standard, directly or through a
> variant selector?
>
> Best regards
>
> JSB
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>                     ,
> dr hab. Janusz S. Bien, prof. UW -  Uniwersytet Warszawski (Katedra 
> Lingwistyki Formalnej)
> Prof. Janusz S. Bien - Warsaw University (Department of Formal Linguistics)
> jsb...@uw.edu.pl, jsb...@mimuw.edu.pl, http://fleksem.klf.uw.edu.pl/~jsbien/
>
>



-- 
Szelp, André Szabolcs

+43 (650) 79 22 400

Re: Draft Proposal to add Variation Sequences for Latin and Cyrillic letters

[Martin J. Dürst]

On 2010/08/05 2:56, Asmus Freytag wrote:

On 8/2/2010 5:04 PM, Karl Pentzlin wrote:

I have compiled a draft proposal:
Proposal to add Variation Sequences for Latin and Cyrillic letters
The draft can be downloaded at:
http://www.pentzlin.com/Variation-Sequences-Latin-Cyrillic2.pdf (4.3 MB).
The final proposal is intended to be submitted for the next UTC
starting next Monday (August 9).

Any comments are welcome.

- Karl Pentzlin


This is an interesting proposal to deal with the glyph selection problem
caused by the unification process inherent in character encoding.

When Unicode was first contemplated, the web did not exist and the
expectation was that it would nearly always be possible to specify the
font to be used for a given text and that selecting a font would give
the correct glyph.


The Web may finally get to solve this problem, although it may still 
take some time to be fully deployed. Please see http://www.w3.org/Fonts/ 
for more details and pointers.


Regards,Martin.

--
#-# Martin J. Dürst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp   mailto:due...@it.aoyama.ac.jp

Re: How to encode reversed section sign?

[Michael Everson]

Janusz,

Sounds like you need a new character. Recently I wrote a proposal to encode TOP 
HALF SECTION SIGN. See http://std.dkuug.dk/jtc1/sc2/wg2/docs/n3740.pdf

If you want to contact me off-line we can put a proposal together quickly 
enough, I think.

Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/

Re: CSUR Tonal

[Andrew West]

On 6 August 2010 05:14, Doug Ewell  wrote:
>
> What makes this troublesome for me is that, on the one hand, there are the
> perfectly ordinary-looking 0 through 8, and on the other hand there are the
> invented digits for 9 and 11 through 15, and then in the middle there's this
> bizarre use of an ordinary 9-glyph to mean decimal 10. That's what messes it
> up for me and makes me think the '9' isn't really a 9, and what the heck,
> maybe none of the "ordinary" digits are what they appear to be, so let's
> CSUR-encode all of them.

Looking at the examples shown on
, it seems to me that
0-8 are ordinary digits, and the symbols for 9 through 15 are inverted
or inverted+modified forms of the digits '7' through '1', so that
there is some sort of imperfect bilateral symmetry on the clock and
compass faces, with '0' and '8' as the axis of symmetry. Thus the '9'
is an inverted '6' (as 16-6=10) not an ordinary '9'. So except for the
odd glyph forms for 9, 11, 12 and 15 (would be be expected to be
simple inversions of '7', '5', '4' and '1') it makes sense as a system
to me.

Anyhow, I do not think the ordinary digits '0' through '8' should be
encoded in the CSUR.

> I'd like some opinions on these "real" Unicode questions from some of
> the experts who normally stay away from PUA issues, and especially
> from the CSUR.

I'm sure that Philippe will be more than happy to share some of his
weighty opinions on this matter.

Andrew

Accessing alternate glyphs from plain text (from Re: Draft Proposal to add Variation Sequences for Latin and Cyrillic letters)

[William_J_G Overington]

On Thursday, 5 August 2010, Kenneth Whistler  wrote:
 
> > I am thinking of where a poet might specify an ending version of a glyph at 
> > the end of the last word on some lines, yet not on others, for poetic 
> > effect. I think that it would be good if one could specify that in plain 
> > text.
 
> Why can't a poet find a poetic means of doing that, instead of depending on a 
> standards organization to provide a standard means of doing so in plain text? 
> Seems kind of anti-poetic to me. ;-)
 
> --Ken
 
Well, I was just suggesting an example. I am not an expert on poetry.
 
It would not be a matter of a poet depending on a standards organization, it 
would be a matter of a standards organization noting that adding alternate 
glyphs to fonts is a modern trend and doing what it can to facilitate access to 
those alternate glyphs from plain text in a standardized way.
 
For example, suppose that an alternate ending glyph for a letter e is desired 
at the end of a line of a poem. I am thinking that U+0065 U+FE0F could be used 
to do that.
 
It seems to me that as U+0065 U+FE0F is presently unused and that there are 
also other variation selectors not used with U+0065, that it would do no harm 
and would be useful for U+0065 U+FE0F to be officially standardized as 
requesting an alternate ending glyph for a letter e, yet using the ordinary 
glyph of U+0065 of the font if an alternate ending glyph of the letter e is not 
available within the font.
 
The standards organizations have a great opportunity to advance typography by 
defining some of the Latin letter plus variation selector pairs so that 
alternate glyphs within a font may be accessed directly from plain text.
  
William Overington
 
6 August 2010
 

How to encode reversed section sign?

[Janusz S. Bień]

An important 19th century dictionary of Polish uses two kinds of
section sign, illustrated in the attachment, there is over 5000
occurrences of the characters. Dirty OCR interpreted both of them as
the letter g, so you can see most of them visiting

   http://poliqarp.wbl.klf.uw.edu.pl/slownik-lindego

switching on graphical concordances and using the query

   g "\." within body

Are you familiar with the reversed section sign? It is highly
improbable that the character has been designed especially for the
dictionary, but I am not aware of any other use of it.

Does it deserve to be included in the standard, directly or through a
variant selector?

Best regards

JSB


<><>

-- 
 ,   
dr hab. Janusz S. Bien, prof. UW -  Uniwersytet Warszawski (Katedra Lingwistyki 
Formalnej)
Prof. Janusz S. Bien - Warsaw University (Department of Formal Linguistics)
jsb...@uw.edu.pl, jsb...@mimuw.edu.pl, http://fleksem.klf.uw.edu.pl/~jsbien/