Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles in lists
2018-06-14 1:49 GMT+02:00 Steve Edmonds : > Thanks, nice article. > It is the right indent that I am having trouble with, referred to as > "After text" in paragraph style. > Ups! Mental note: "do not try to answer complex questions after midnight." Sorry! > steve > > > On 14/06/18 10:29, Ricardo Berlasso wrote: > >> 2018-06-13 23:20 GMT+02:00 Steve Edmonds : >> >> Hi. >>> I must be missing something obvious, but how do I apply to/retain a >>> paragraph style to a list. >>> I have defined a paragraph style I want and a list style I want but when >>> I >>> apply the list style to the paragraph the paragraph style looses the >>> setting for "After text". >>> >>> List styles get control over left indent, overwriting any value set by >> the >> paragraph style, so if for any reason you want to keep the indent of the >> paragraph style you need to modify the list style to mimic that indent. >> I've wrote an article about alignment on lists here >> >> https://frommindtotype.wordpress.com/2018/01/08/numbered- >> and-bulleted-lists-alignment-on-libreoffice-writer/ >> >> Regards, >> Ricardo >> >> >> I can re-apply the setting with direct formatting (right click - >>> paragraph) but that defeats the purpose of using styles. >>> >>> steve >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org >>> Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-un >>> subscribe/ >>> Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundatio >>> n.org/Netiquette >>> List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ >>> Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy >>> >>> > > -- > To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org > Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-un > subscribe/ > Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette > List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ > Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy > -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles in lists
On 14/06/18 12:24, Regina Henschel wrote: Hi Steve, Steve Edmonds schrieb am 13.06.2018 um 23:20: Hi. I must be missing something obvious, but how do I apply to/retain a paragraph style to a list. I have defined a paragraph style I want and a list style I want but when I apply the list style to the paragraph the paragraph style looses the setting for "After text". You miss nothing. It is bug https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=83532 Besides that, if you want to bind paragraph and list together, then select the list style in the Numbering tab of the paragraph style dialog. Thanks Regina. I have bound paragraph and list together as you suggest, but that is not a fix for the bug. I searched in bugzilla first but my search did not find this bug. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles in lists
Hi Steve, Steve Edmonds schrieb am 13.06.2018 um 23:20: Hi. I must be missing something obvious, but how do I apply to/retain a paragraph style to a list. I have defined a paragraph style I want and a list style I want but when I apply the list style to the paragraph the paragraph style looses the setting for "After text". You miss nothing. It is bug https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=83532 Besides that, if you want to bind paragraph and list together, then select the list style in the Numbering tab of the paragraph style dialog. Kind regards Regina -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles in lists
Thanks, nice article. It is the right indent that I am having trouble with, referred to as "After text" in paragraph style. steve On 14/06/18 10:29, Ricardo Berlasso wrote: 2018-06-13 23:20 GMT+02:00 Steve Edmonds : Hi. I must be missing something obvious, but how do I apply to/retain a paragraph style to a list. I have defined a paragraph style I want and a list style I want but when I apply the list style to the paragraph the paragraph style looses the setting for "After text". List styles get control over left indent, overwriting any value set by the paragraph style, so if for any reason you want to keep the indent of the paragraph style you need to modify the list style to mimic that indent. I've wrote an article about alignment on lists here https://frommindtotype.wordpress.com/2018/01/08/numbered-and-bulleted-lists-alignment-on-libreoffice-writer/ Regards, Ricardo I can re-apply the setting with direct formatting (right click - paragraph) but that defeats the purpose of using styles. steve -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-un subscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles in lists
2018-06-13 23:20 GMT+02:00 Steve Edmonds : > Hi. > I must be missing something obvious, but how do I apply to/retain a > paragraph style to a list. > I have defined a paragraph style I want and a list style I want but when I > apply the list style to the paragraph the paragraph style looses the > setting for "After text". > List styles get control over left indent, overwriting any value set by the paragraph style, so if for any reason you want to keep the indent of the paragraph style you need to modify the list style to mimic that indent. I've wrote an article about alignment on lists here https://frommindtotype.wordpress.com/2018/01/08/numbered-and-bulleted-lists-alignment-on-libreoffice-writer/ Regards, Ricardo > > I can re-apply the setting with direct formatting (right click - > paragraph) but that defeats the purpose of using styles. > > steve > > > > -- > To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org > Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-un > subscribe/ > Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette > List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ > Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy > -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles in lists
On 2015-08-13 18:07, Piet van Oostrum wrote: Steve Edmonds wrote: > > > On 2015-08-13 10:27, Bruce Byfield wrote: > >> Original message > >> From: Steve Edmonds > >> Date:08/12/2015 4:15 PM (GMT-05:00) > >> To: elderdanlewis > >> Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles in lists > >> > >> Hi. > >> I am not sure this is what I was after. > >> If I create a list, initially everything is on level one. > >> I would like it so that if I demote an item to level 2 the style is > >> automatically changed to the style defined for level 2. When I tried your > >> suggestion I had to manually apply the List 2 style to the paragraph. Steve > > I'm coming late into this discussion, but if I understand what you want to do, > > you need to create a List style with two or more levels. > > > > Press F11 to open the Styles and Formatting window in the sidebar, then select > > the List Styles button and create or modify a list style with several levels > > using the Options tab. For each level, you will want a different numbering > > system. > > > > When you go to apply the style, press the Tab key to use the level below your > > present one at the cursor position, or Shift+Tab to use the level above your > > current one. > > > Hi. Partly correct. I want to create lists with more than one level (2-3 > generally) and have the paragraph style of the text change to a > predefined style as I demote or promote the level of a paragraph. I.e. a > different paragraph style is associated with each level. > steve Hi Steve, Did you read my answer to your question? I think that solves it. Sorry, missed that. Works great thanks. Cheers, steve -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles in lists
Steve Edmonds wrote: > > > On 2015-08-13 10:27, Bruce Byfield wrote: > >> Original message > >> From: Steve Edmonds > >> Date:08/12/2015 4:15 PM (GMT-05:00) > >> To: elderdanlewis > >> Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles in lists > >> > >> Hi. > >> I am not sure this is what I was after. > >> If I create a list, initially everything is on level one. > >> I would like it so that if I demote an item to level 2 the style is > >> automatically changed to the style defined for level 2. When I tried your > >> suggestion I had to manually apply the List 2 style to the paragraph. > >> Steve > > I'm coming late into this discussion, but if I understand what you want to > > do, > > you need to create a List style with two or more levels. > > > > Press F11 to open the Styles and Formatting window in the sidebar, then > > select > > the List Styles button and create or modify a list style with several > > levels > > using the Options tab. For each level, you will want a different numbering > > system. > > > > When you go to apply the style, press the Tab key to use the level below > > your > > present one at the cursor position, or Shift+Tab to use the level above > > your > > current one. > > > Hi. Partly correct. I want to create lists with more than one level (2-3 > generally) and have the paragraph style of the text change to a > predefined style as I demote or promote the level of a paragraph. I.e. a > different paragraph style is associated with each level. > steve Hi Steve, Did you read my answer to your question? I think that solves it. -- Piet van Oostrum WWW: http://pietvanoostrum.com/ PGP key: [8DAE142BE17999C4] -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles in lists
On 2015-08-13 10:27, Bruce Byfield wrote: Original message From: Steve Edmonds Date:08/12/2015 4:15 PM (GMT-05:00) To: elderdanlewis Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles in lists Hi. I am not sure this is what I was after. If I create a list, initially everything is on level one. I would like it so that if I demote an item to level 2 the style is automatically changed to the style defined for level 2. When I tried your suggestion I had to manually apply the List 2 style to the paragraph. Steve I'm coming late into this discussion, but if I understand what you want to do, you need to create a List style with two or more levels. Press F11 to open the Styles and Formatting window in the sidebar, then select the List Styles button and create or modify a list style with several levels using the Options tab. For each level, you will want a different numbering system. When you go to apply the style, press the Tab key to use the level below your present one at the cursor position, or Shift+Tab to use the level above your current one. Hi. Partly correct. I want to create lists with more than one level (2-3 generally) and have the paragraph style of the text change to a predefined style as I demote or promote the level of a paragraph. I.e. a different paragraph style is associated with each level. steve Original message From: Steve Edmonds Date:08/10/2015 10:41 PM (GMT-05:00) To: users@global.libreoffice.org Subject: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles in lists Hi. I have had a look in the help but can't see if I can achieve my desired effect. Is it possible to assign a paragraph style based on the level in a list. I.e. Level 1 text is regular, level 2 text is italic. Thanks, steve -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles in lists
> Original message > From: Steve Edmonds > Date:08/12/2015 4:15 PM (GMT-05:00) > To: elderdanlewis > Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles in lists > > Hi. > I am not sure this is what I was after. > If I create a list, initially everything is on level one. > I would like it so that if I demote an item to level 2 the style is > automatically changed to the style defined for level 2. When I tried your > suggestion I had to manually apply the List 2 style to the paragraph. Steve I'm coming late into this discussion, but if I understand what you want to do, you need to create a List style with two or more levels. Press F11 to open the Styles and Formatting window in the sidebar, then select the List Styles button and create or modify a list style with several levels using the Options tab. For each level, you will want a different numbering system. When you go to apply the style, press the Tab key to use the level below your present one at the cursor position, or Shift+Tab to use the level above your current one. > > Original message > From: Steve Edmonds > Date:08/10/2015 10:41 PM (GMT-05:00) > To: users@global.libreoffice.org > Subject: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles in lists > > Hi. > I have had a look in the help but can't see if I can achieve my desired > effect. > Is it possible to assign a paragraph style based on the level in a list. > I.e. Level 1 text is regular, level 2 text is italic. > Thanks, steve -- Bruce Byfield 604-421-7189 (on Pacific time) https://brucebyfield.wordpress.com -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles in lists
Now I understand what you want. A paragraph style applies the same formatting to the whole paragraph. A character style can be used within the paragraph, but this must be manually applied to the selected characters. What you want to do is not possible unless perhaps a macro is used. What you can do is to select a special character as the "number" at the beginning of the element when the level is 2. Dan Original message From: Steve Edmonds Date:08/12/2015 4:15 PM (GMT-05:00) To: elderdanlewis Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles in lists Hi. I am not sure this is what I was after. If I create a list, initially everything is on level one. I would like it so that if I demote an item to level 2 the style is automatically changed to the style defined for level 2. When I tried your suggestion I had to manually apply the List 2 style to the paragraph. Steve On 2015-08-13 01:53, elderdanlewis wrote: One thing I forgot to mention: List 2 is found in two different style lists, paragraph and lists (list names here begin with either list or number). Paragraph styles is the one to which I referred. Click the left icon at the top of the styles and formating window to get this list. Dan Original message From: Steve Edmonds Date:08/11/2015 5:54 PM (GMT-05:00) To: elderdanlewis Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles in lists Thanks, what version of LibreOffice do you have. I have 4.3.7.2 and that doesn't have a font tab so it must be a newer feature. Steve On 2015-08-12 02:46, elderdanlewis wrote: Yes, you can. Open the Styles and formatting window (second icon down on the left border of the LibreOffice window). Right click the List 2 style and select Modify. Select the Font tab and then select the italic style. Click OK. Dan Original message From: Steve Edmonds Date:08/10/2015 10:41 PM (GMT-05:00) To: users@global.libreoffice.org Subject: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles in lists Hi. I have had a look in the help but can't see if I can achieve my desired effect. Is it possible to assign a paragraph style based on the level in a list. I.e. Level 1 text is regular, level 2 text is italic. Thanks, steve -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles in lists
Steve Edmonds wrote: > Hi. > I have had a look in the help but can't see if I can achieve my desired > effect. > Is it possible to assign a paragraph style based on the level in a list. > I.e. Level 1 text is regular, level 2 text is italic. > Thanks, steve You can do this with a Conditional Paragraph Style. Look up 'single-style outlining' in the LibreOffice Writers Guide. You would then use the paragraph styles List 1, List 2, etc. or Numbering 1, Numbering 2 etc. for numbered lists. You can adapt these or make your own similar paragraph styles. Create a new paragraph style for example Nested List, make it a conditional style, and couple the Numbering levels to Numbering 1, Numbering 2, or List 1, List 2, etc. -- Piet van Oostrum WWW: http://pietvanoostrum.com/ PGP key: [8DAE142BE17999C4] -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles
A program is intuitive if it matches something in our previous experience. Before computers, business professionals used typewriters. If you want a computer to be intuitive, you need to make it work as much like a typewriter as possible. (I'm still amazed that, after 30+ years, the typewriter remains the model of the word processing user interface, even for those who have never touched a typewriter.) But, by making it intuitive, you lose the power of the computer. To gain the power of the computer, old dogs need to learn new tricks, like paragraph styles, which isn't intuitive. Virgil -Original Message- From: Jean-Francois Nifenecker Sent: Sunday, May 05, 2013 2:16 AM To: users@global.libreoffice.org Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles Hi, Le 05/05/2013 05:14, Andrew K a écrit : I find that most people I know who use word processors as a (barely glorified) typewriter are those who are most resistant to using styles. They are not resistant: they have never been seriously told about styles and their bosses believe software marketting (IT is supposed to be easy and intuitive, which it is *not*). -- Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles
Hello Adrew, Le 05/05/2013 12:29, Andrew K a écrit : I didn't know that you know the same people I know. Typewriter users are still alive and well. This is just because *noone* (myself to begin with) never told them in time that a computer is no typewriter. The secret is well kept and trainers' first job should be to reveal it. -- Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles
Hello Jean-Francois, I didn't know that you know the same people I know. On 05/05/2013, at 4:16 PM, Jean-Francois Nifenecker wrote: > Hi, > > Le 05/05/2013 05:14, Andrew K a écrit : >> >> I find that most people I know who use word processors as a (barely >> glorified) typewriter are those who are most resistant to using >> styles. >> > > They are not resistant: they have never been seriously told about styles and > their bosses believe software marketting (IT is supposed to be easy and > intuitive, which it is *not*). > > -- > Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux > > -- > To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org > Problems? > http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ > Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette > List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ > All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted > -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles
Hi, Le 05/05/2013 05:14, Andrew K a écrit : I find that most people I know who use word processors as a (barely glorified) typewriter are those who are most resistant to using styles. They are not resistant: they have never been seriously told about styles and their bosses believe software marketting (IT is supposed to be easy and intuitive, which it is *not*). -- Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles
Hi, I use styles as much as I can, just to achieve consistent formatting, to say nothing of time saving. I find that most people I know who use word processors as a (barely glorified) typewriter are those who are most resistant to using styles. Andrew On 05/05/2013, at 1:22 AM, Virgil Arrington wrote: > Great idea as long as I'm not the one paying the $25 per document. :) > > Virgil > > -Original Message- From: Ken Springer > Sent: Saturday, May 04, 2013 10:56 AM > To: users@global.libreoffice.org > Subject: [libreoffice-users] Re: Paragraph styles > > On 4/29/13 12:00 PM, Virgil Arrington wrote: >> I'd like to get some general opinions about paragraph styles. >> >> I am a retired lawyer who led a local government law office. When I was >> working at that office, I tried in vain to get my employees to use paragraph >> styles. For them, styles were a bother to set up and maintain. I love using >> them, but then I'm as much a word processor junkie as I am an end-user. >> >> Now, I teach a paralegal course in technology at my local university. I >> recently spent three weeks teaching styles to my students and they have >> resisted me all the way. My sense is that people just trying to get their >> work done see paragraph styles as an nuisance, not appreciating the amount >> of time they can save by investing a little at the beginning. >> >> What about the rest of you. Do you use styles? Do you find that other >> less-techy types avoid them? >> >> It makes me wonder if there is a way to make them more accessible to people >> less inclined to invest time in their technology as opposed to getting a >> task done. > > Hi, Virgil, > > I've just read this entire thread start to finish. > > If I'm correct, you're looking for a way to encourage/convince/cajole/ > (name your poison here!LOL) to use styles and formatting. > > No one has suggested an economic argument. > > Give them a hypothetical scenario of some kind, possibly like this... > > Ask them if anyone is interested in doing some typing and/or document > formatting on the side? Tell them they will be paid "by the piece", not > "by the hour". They will be paid $25 per finished document. > > Now ask them, would they be happy with doing 2 documents an hour and > make $50? My guess is, most will say yes. Now propose this... "What if > I showed you a way to do 4 documents an hour and make $100?" > > I'll bet no one says no, and hopefully you've got them hooked.:-) > > > -- > Ken > > Mac OS X 10.8.3 > Firefox 20.0 > Thunderbird 17.0.5 > LibreOffice 4.0.1.2 > > > -- > To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org > Problems? > http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ > Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette > List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ > All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted > > > -- > To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org > Problems? > http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ > Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette > List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ > All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted > -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles (collaborating on documents)
At 18:56 03/05/2013 -0400, Felmon Davis wrote: I am confused. Oh, don't be! so what is the context of discussion? a) several individuals passing documents to and fro and b) each with a lot of formatting and c) each preferring their own formatting to others'? this indeed is a 'war of all against all' but then it's less a matter of word-processor vs latex or something but a problem of organization and coordination. Yes: that's indeed probably where word processors are less than up to the task. sorry if I was off topic. Not at all: you weren't. It's just that there is less of a problem if the last person is permitted to do whatever s/he wishes. Brian Barker -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles (collaborating on documents)
On Fri, 3 May 2013, Brian Barker wrote: At 16:41 03/05/2013 +, Felmon Davis wrote: I share documents with people all the time because a couple of committees I've been on had me as the 'master of documents', that is, I would take other people's work and bundle it together, edit and produce drafts for them to work on, then I would do up the final report. they almost always are using some version of Word. But surely that's different? You've been appointed to "do up the final report", so you can do what you like with the final text - even just taking it out as plain text and reformatting from scratch. The earlier conversations where about situations where all members of a collaboration had equal rights to impose formatting - and where the formatting itself was perhaps a relevant point of discussion and agreement. I am confused. Wolfgang spoke of two users. but granted that would also be a problem if each user claims the prerogative to determine formatting. most occasions I encounter no one claims such a prerogative, each goes their own way, but also most people I deal with don't do any significant formatting to start with. so what is the context of discussion? a) several individuals passing documents to and fro and b) each with a lot of formatting and c) each preferring their own formatting to others'? this indeed is a 'war of all against all' but then it's less a matter of word-processor vs latex or something but a problem of organization and coordination. Where it is appropriate, what you describe is indeed the way to go: to develop and agree on the content separately from the format. The format is either locked down from the start or imposed separately at the end. That's what intelligent web authoring arrangements use, of course. sorry if I was off topic. F. > Brian Barker -- Felmon Davis Dyslexics have more fnu. -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles
Hi :) Exactly! It's like driving an automatic car rather than a gear-shift one but with the option to use gear-shift if&when you choose to. Most people are more familiar with worrying about what to do right now and with keeping all their previous choices in their head. The idea of surrendering that to an automated process so they can just get on with the writing is even quite scary to people. However, automatics are catching on. One lass at work even has it as 1 of her "must haves" when choosing a new car. Regards from Tom :) > > From: Kevin O'Brien >To: users@global.libreoffice.org >Sent: Thursday, 2 May 2013, 15:11 >Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles > > >On 4/30/2013 4:18 PM, Dave Liesse wrote: >> As an end user, I'd like to ask one follow-up question to your third >> point. This is an "I don't understand" type of question, by the way, >> not a challenge. >> >> Are you implying that if I want to, say, indent one paragraph with no >> other changes, I should create a new style for that? Seems like a lot >> of work since it can be done with one mouse clicks (or, if I ever get >> around to learning how to create shortcut keys, one keystroke >> combination) plus navigating to the paragraph. >> > >Personally, I think this is the wrong way to approach the problem. I >would start with *why* you want to indent the paragraph. What a lot of >people do, without ever being conscious of it, is use visual appearance >to communicate structural information. I start with the structural >information (What is this object doing here on the page? What is its >purpose?), and then I can add any visual formatting to it that I need. >So if the indent is used to denote a quoted passage form another source >(a very common usage), I would create a style for the *quotation*, and >give it the attribute of indentation. And I would save it in my Default >Template because I'm pretty sure this won't be the last time in my life >that I need to do quoted passages. And if I have a long document with a >number of objects, I can change the appearance of the quoted passages >without affecting anything else. This is something the authors of the >Writer documentation really understand, but it is a new way of thinking >for most people. > >Regards, > >-- >Kevin B. O'Brien >zwil...@zwilnik.com >A damsel with a dulcimer in a vision once I saw. > > >-- >For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org >Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ >Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette >List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ >All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted > > > -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles (collaborating on documents)
At 16:41 03/05/2013 +, Felmon Davis wrote: I share documents with people all the time because a couple of committees I've been on had me as the 'master of documents', that is, I would take other people's work and bundle it together, edit and produce drafts for them to work on, then I would do up the final report. they almost always are using some version of Word. But surely that's different? You've been appointed to "do up the final report", so you can do what you like with the final text - even just taking it out as plain text and reformatting from scratch. The earlier conversations where about situations where all members of a collaboration had equal rights to impose formatting - and where the formatting itself was perhaps a relevant point of discussion and agreement. Where it is appropriate, what you describe is indeed the way to go: to develop and agree on the content separately from the format. The format is either locked down from the start or imposed separately at the end. That's what intelligent web authoring arrangements use, of course. Brian Barker -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles
On 05/01/2013 08:44 PM, Michael Reich wrote: I haven't seen this posted yet so here goes. I recognize the benefits/uses of paragraph styles and do use them, but one major drawback for me is the apparently very complicated steps involved in using them in other documents. I know I can save a styled document as a template, but short of that, it's a PITA to share styles (IMO). There ought to be an easier way than the "import" procedure. I think this will work. Copy and paste some text with the style you want to share from the old document to a new one. You should see the style appear in the Styles and Formatting window as a custom style. I did this for a numbered list. In the paragraph styles custom list, the paragraph style use with the list appeared. In the List styles custom list, the list style I use also appeared. In my case, the pasted list appeared as a bullet list, but I think that was because a bullet list was directly above the pasted list. When I highlighted the pasted list and double clicked the copied numbered list style, the list became a numbered list. --Dan On 5/1/13 3:00 PM, users+h...@global.libreoffice.org wrote: Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles From: "Virgil Arrington" Date: 4/30/13 3:53 PM To: , Dave asked, Are you implying that if I want to, say, indent one paragraph with no other changes, I should create a new style for that? Seems like a lot of work since it can be done with one mouse clicks (or, if I ever get around to learning how to create shortcut keys, one keystroke combination) plus navigating to the paragraph. Valid question. Your example demonstrates the tension between using styles and direct formatting. To make such a small change using styles would indeed be more work than using direct formatting. But, in my experience, too many users use that one paragraph as an illustration of why they don't want to learn or use styles at all. In order to keep from spending a few minutes to create a new style, they end up sentencing themselves to hours of unnecessary labor directly formatting paragraphs when they could be much more efficient with styles. Obviously, that one change to that one paragraph isn't going to destroy your document, but small changes like that tend to multiply. Do it too many times in a document, and you will end up with formatting problems, such as remembering which paragraphs were formatted with styles and which were formatted directly. Also, let's say you make that one small change, and then later decide you want to change something more globally. That one directly formatted paragraph could get in the way of a later global change. Also, don't get sucked in to comparing amounts of labor to perform a task. At first, the creation of a paragraph style *always* appears to take more work than direct formatting, which is why many users never cross the styles threshold. But, cross that threshold once, and you will save yourself mountains of labor later by using the styles it took you so much time to create in the first place. Ideally, I will use styles for each and every paragraph in my documents. It provides formatting consistency, and I never have to remember which paragraphs I may have formatted directly. Yes, on occasion, I will spend more time formatting a single paragraph by creating a new style, but I consider that a one-off "cost of doing business" with styles, which will be more than offset by the hours I will save myself later by using styles throughout my documents. I also remember that I'll probably use that same paragraph format later in a different document, so having the style created and saved in my default template saves me more time later. Virgil -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles
On 4/30/2013 4:18 PM, Dave Liesse wrote: As an end user, I'd like to ask one follow-up question to your third point. This is an "I don't understand" type of question, by the way, not a challenge. Are you implying that if I want to, say, indent one paragraph with no other changes, I should create a new style for that? Seems like a lot of work since it can be done with one mouse clicks (or, if I ever get around to learning how to create shortcut keys, one keystroke combination) plus navigating to the paragraph. Personally, I think this is the wrong way to approach the problem. I would start with *why* you want to indent the paragraph. What a lot of people do, without ever being conscious of it, is use visual appearance to communicate structural information. I start with the structural information (What is this object doing here on the page? What is its purpose?), and then I can add any visual formatting to it that I need. So if the indent is used to denote a quoted passage form another source (a very common usage), I would create a style for the *quotation*, and give it the attribute of indentation. And I would save it in my Default Template because I'm pretty sure this won't be the last time in my life that I need to do quoted passages. And if I have a long document with a number of objects, I can change the appearance of the quoted passages without affecting anything else. This is something the authors of the Writer documentation really understand, but it is a new way of thinking for most people. Regards, -- Kevin B. O'Brien zwil...@zwilnik.com A damsel with a dulcimer in a vision once I saw. -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles
I haven't seen this posted yet so here goes. I recognize the benefits/uses of paragraph styles and do use them, but one major drawback for me is the apparently very complicated steps involved in using them in other documents. I know I can save a styled document as a template, but short of that, it's a PITA to share styles (IMO). There ought to be an easier way than the "import" procedure. On 5/1/13 3:00 PM, users+h...@global.libreoffice.org wrote: Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles From: "Virgil Arrington" Date: 4/30/13 3:53 PM To: , Dave asked, Are you implying that if I want to, say, indent one paragraph with no other changes, I should create a new style for that? Seems like a lot of work since it can be done with one mouse clicks (or, if I ever get around to learning how to create shortcut keys, one keystroke combination) plus navigating to the paragraph. Valid question. Your example demonstrates the tension between using styles and direct formatting. To make such a small change using styles would indeed be more work than using direct formatting. But, in my experience, too many users use that one paragraph as an illustration of why they don't want to learn or use styles at all. In order to keep from spending a few minutes to create a new style, they end up sentencing themselves to hours of unnecessary labor directly formatting paragraphs when they could be much more efficient with styles. Obviously, that one change to that one paragraph isn't going to destroy your document, but small changes like that tend to multiply. Do it too many times in a document, and you will end up with formatting problems, such as remembering which paragraphs were formatted with styles and which were formatted directly. Also, let's say you make that one small change, and then later decide you want to change something more globally. That one directly formatted paragraph could get in the way of a later global change. Also, don't get sucked in to comparing amounts of labor to perform a task. At first, the creation of a paragraph style *always* appears to take more work than direct formatting, which is why many users never cross the styles threshold. But, cross that threshold once, and you will save yourself mountains of labor later by using the styles it took you so much time to create in the first place. Ideally, I will use styles for each and every paragraph in my documents. It provides formatting consistency, and I never have to remember which paragraphs I may have formatted directly. Yes, on occasion, I will spend more time formatting a single paragraph by creating a new style, but I consider that a one-off "cost of doing business" with styles, which will be more than offset by the hours I will save myself later by using styles throughout my documents. I also remember that I'll probably use that same paragraph format later in a different document, so having the style created and saved in my default template saves me more time later. Virgil -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles
Hi Dave, Dave Liesse schrieb: As an end user, I'd like to ask one follow-up question to your third point. This is an "I don't understand" type of question, by the way, not a challenge. Are you implying that if I want to, say, indent one paragraph with no other changes, I should create a new style for that? Seems like a lot of work since it can be done with one mouse clicks (or, if I ever get around to learning how to create shortcut keys, one keystroke combination) plus navigating to the paragraph. (Just for the record, the indent and outdent keystrokes are probably the thing I miss most from MS Word, and there's not much that I miss.) Your change in format has a textual reason. Therefore it is likely, that this is not the only paragraph, where you have to use this format. So yes, you should make a style from it. But that is very easy and quickly done: Do all formatting you want to this paragraph as direct (hard) formatting. Then from the drop down list of the right button in the Styles&Formatting window choose "New Style from Selection". Enter the name of the new style, OK. That's all. The item says 'from Selection', but for a paragraph style there is no need to select something. It is sufficient, that the cursor is inside the paragraph. The new style has as parent the old style of the paragraph. It contains only those settings, which you have applied in addition. Therefore it fits well into the parent-child hierarchy. The new style is applied to this paragraph and the formats you had applied are removed as direct formatting. Therefore the formatting of this paragraph will adapt too, if you later on modify the style. Kind regards Regina -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles
Had something similar ages back when teaching a beginning web development class on the topic of CSS. Students went wide-eyed. I then let them play with CSS for the next half hour. They loved it! On 04/30/2013 05:20 AM, Tom Davies wrote: Hi :) I think that is called "a teaching moment" and they are extremely rare. In 20 years of teaching one can expect about 4 of those. Regards from Tom :) Just today, one of my students was stunned to watch that work. "You mean I don't have to make the same change to every paragraph?" she asked. -- David gn...@hawaii.rr.com authenticity, honesty, community http://dancingtreefrog.com http://clanjones.org/david/ http://dancing-treefrog.deviantart.com/ -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles
On 30 April 2013 14:23, Steve Edmonds wrote: > One of the most frustrating things is fixing > other peoples documents that are full of direct formatting. True: (Ctrl+A followed by Ctrl+M) :-) -- T. R. Valentine Your friends will argue with you. Your enemies don't care. 'When I get a little money I buy books; and if any is left I buy food and clothes.' -- Erasmus -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles
On 2013-05-01 08:53, Virgil Arrington wrote: Dave asked, Are you implying that if I want to, say, indent one paragraph with no other changes, I should create a new style for that? Seems like a lot of work since it can be done with one mouse clicks (or, if I ever get around to learning how to create shortcut keys, one keystroke combination) plus navigating to the paragraph. Valid question. Your example demonstrates the tension between using styles and direct formatting. To make such a small change using styles would indeed be more work than using direct formatting. But, in my experience, too many users use that one paragraph as an illustration of why they don't want to learn or use styles at all. In order to keep from spending a few minutes to create a new style, they end up sentencing themselves to hours of unnecessary labor directly formatting paragraphs when they could be much more efficient with styles. Obviously, that one change to that one paragraph isn't going to destroy your document, but small changes like that tend to multiply. Do it too many times in a document, and you will end up with formatting problems, such as remembering which paragraphs were formatted with styles and which were formatted directly. Also, let's say you make that one small change, and then later decide you want to change something more globally. That one directly formatted paragraph could get in the way of a later global change. Also, don't get sucked in to comparing amounts of labor to perform a task. At first, the creation of a paragraph style *always* appears to take more work than direct formatting, which is why many users never cross the styles threshold. But, cross that threshold once, and you will save yourself mountains of labor later by using the styles it took you so much time to create in the first place. Ideally, I will use styles for each and every paragraph in my documents. It provides formatting consistency, and I never have to remember which paragraphs I may have formatted directly. Yes, on occasion, I will spend more time formatting a single paragraph by creating a new style, but I consider that a one-off "cost of doing business" with styles, which will be more than offset by the hours I will save myself later by using styles throughout my documents. I also remember that I'll probably use that same paragraph format later in a different document, so having the style created and saved in my default template saves me more time later. Virgi My preference for that one mouse click to indent the paragraph would be a small prompt "Update Style or create new style". Steve -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles
On 04/30/2013 04:18 PM, Dave Liesse wrote: As an end user, I'd like to ask one follow-up question to your third point. This is an "I don't understand" type of question, by the way, not a challenge. Are you implying that if I want to, say, indent one paragraph with no other changes, I should create a new style for that? Seems like a lot of work since it can be done with one mouse clicks (or, if I ever get around to learning how to create shortcut keys, one keystroke combination) plus navigating to the paragraph. (Just for the record, the indent and outdent keystrokes are probably the thing I miss most from MS Word, and there's not much that I miss.) Dave From a personal perspective,you would not have to create a new style if you are only going to do this one time. However, if you then find that you want to do it more often, you probably should create a new style and use it every time you indent a paragraph this way. Creating such a style involves these steps: Suppose your paragraph style is named TextBody. Remember that this also requires the Styles and Fromatting window open (use the F11 key to open it). 1) Right click TextBody in the Paragraph styles list. 2) Select Modify from the context menu. 3) In the Organizer tab, name this new style (I suggest: TextBody-Indented). 4) Click the Indents & Spacing Tab. 5) Select the amount of the indentation you want in First line. 6) Click OK. Yes, for me this takes 6 steps. But most of it can be done with a mouse. Actually, only naming the style requires using the keyboard. Another point: this new style is identical to the original paragraph style except for the amount of indentation. It is really about moderation. It is also about some planning of what is to be contained in a text document. If you are creating several paragraphs that have the same format, a style that defines that format is a good idea. If you have only one or a very few paragraphs that are different, you might not want to create a style for only a very few paragraphs. Having said that, here is a real example that someone asked about on the OpenOffice.org mailing list several years ago. They were writing a document that contained two languages. Some of the paragraphs contained one language, and the rest contained a second language. How can words in two languages be spell checked? The answer was to create a paragraph style for one language and a second paragraph style for the second language. (This requires similar six steps to what I mentioned above. Step 4 would be to click the Font tab. Step 5 is to select the language desired.) Since the person had already installed the dictionaries for these languages, all that was needed was to assign the proper paragraph style by language. Then to check the spelling, the F7 key is clicked. Both languages have their spelling checked. --Dan On 4/30/2013 12:40, Virgil Arrington wrote: Several of the posts have brought me to thinking a few random thoughts. 1. There's a difference between *using* styles and *creating/editing* them. In the LyX/LaTeX world, as well as the HTML/CSS world, one is indeed forced to used styles (called "environments" in LaTeX speak) because that's the way the system works. The styles/environments are created by supposed experts who create document "classes," or templates. But, neither the classes nor the environments are easy to modify. The end-user selects the environment he wants (\chapter, \section, \quote, etc.) and then lets the program do the work. As one writer mentioned, it truly separates the operations of writing and typesetting/formatting. Markdown editors in the HTML world also allow such clean separation. None of the WYSIWYG word processors (Word, LO, OO, AbiWord, etc.) provide such a clean separation between editing and formatting. And, yet... 2. In the LyX/LaTeX world, it all works very well...until you want to modify a small formatting parameter for a specific paragraph. Yes, it can be done, but it's not intuitive, nor encouraged. Despite the advanced formatting capabilities of LyX or LaTeX, few writers use them, I believe in part because making even a small change from the default settings sometimes requires a massive on-line search for the right command to change. 3. In the Word/LO world, this case of the "one off" paragraph modification is where I see resistance to styles from end-users. I've got paragraph style for just about every possible situation, but there may be a single paragraph where a user wants to change one parameter. If the user doesn't understand styles, he'll just apply direct formatting to the paragraph, without creating and/or modifying a style. Thus, just having users write with templates and styles created by others will only take people so far. At some point in time, they will need to learn how to create and/or modify styles. Otherwise, they'll have documents with a mixture of styles and dir
Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles
Dave asked, Are you implying that if I want to, say, indent one paragraph with no other changes, I should create a new style for that? Seems like a lot of work since it can be done with one mouse clicks (or, if I ever get around to learning how to create shortcut keys, one keystroke combination) plus navigating to the paragraph. Valid question. Your example demonstrates the tension between using styles and direct formatting. To make such a small change using styles would indeed be more work than using direct formatting. But, in my experience, too many users use that one paragraph as an illustration of why they don't want to learn or use styles at all. In order to keep from spending a few minutes to create a new style, they end up sentencing themselves to hours of unnecessary labor directly formatting paragraphs when they could be much more efficient with styles. Obviously, that one change to that one paragraph isn't going to destroy your document, but small changes like that tend to multiply. Do it too many times in a document, and you will end up with formatting problems, such as remembering which paragraphs were formatted with styles and which were formatted directly. Also, let's say you make that one small change, and then later decide you want to change something more globally. That one directly formatted paragraph could get in the way of a later global change. Also, don't get sucked in to comparing amounts of labor to perform a task. At first, the creation of a paragraph style *always* appears to take more work than direct formatting, which is why many users never cross the styles threshold. But, cross that threshold once, and you will save yourself mountains of labor later by using the styles it took you so much time to create in the first place. Ideally, I will use styles for each and every paragraph in my documents. It provides formatting consistency, and I never have to remember which paragraphs I may have formatted directly. Yes, on occasion, I will spend more time formatting a single paragraph by creating a new style, but I consider that a one-off "cost of doing business" with styles, which will be more than offset by the hours I will save myself later by using styles throughout my documents. I also remember that I'll probably use that same paragraph format later in a different document, so having the style created and saved in my default template saves me more time later. Virgil -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles
As an end user, I'd like to ask one follow-up question to your third point. This is an "I don't understand" type of question, by the way, not a challenge. Are you implying that if I want to, say, indent one paragraph with no other changes, I should create a new style for that? Seems like a lot of work since it can be done with one mouse clicks (or, if I ever get around to learning how to create shortcut keys, one keystroke combination) plus navigating to the paragraph. (Just for the record, the indent and outdent keystrokes are probably the thing I miss most from MS Word, and there's not much that I miss.) Dave On 4/30/2013 12:40, Virgil Arrington wrote: Several of the posts have brought me to thinking a few random thoughts. 1. There's a difference between *using* styles and *creating/editing* them. In the LyX/LaTeX world, as well as the HTML/CSS world, one is indeed forced to used styles (called "environments" in LaTeX speak) because that's the way the system works. The styles/environments are created by supposed experts who create document "classes," or templates. But, neither the classes nor the environments are easy to modify. The end-user selects the environment he wants (\chapter, \section, \quote, etc.) and then lets the program do the work. As one writer mentioned, it truly separates the operations of writing and typesetting/formatting. Markdown editors in the HTML world also allow such clean separation. None of the WYSIWYG word processors (Word, LO, OO, AbiWord, etc.) provide such a clean separation between editing and formatting. And, yet... 2. In the LyX/LaTeX world, it all works very well...until you want to modify a small formatting parameter for a specific paragraph. Yes, it can be done, but it's not intuitive, nor encouraged. Despite the advanced formatting capabilities of LyX or LaTeX, few writers use them, I believe in part because making even a small change from the default settings sometimes requires a massive on-line search for the right command to change. 3. In the Word/LO world, this case of the "one off" paragraph modification is where I see resistance to styles from end-users. I've got paragraph style for just about every possible situation, but there may be a single paragraph where a user wants to change one parameter. If the user doesn't understand styles, he'll just apply direct formatting to the paragraph, without creating and/or modifying a style. Thus, just having users write with templates and styles created by others will only take people so far. At some point in time, they will need to learn how to create and/or modify styles. Otherwise, they'll have documents with a mixture of styles and direct formatting, the beginning of what could grow into a mess. I believe AbiWord has (or had) a feature to "lock styles" meaning a person could be locked out of changing formatting directly. All formatting changes would have to go through styles. I'm sure it would be a maddening feature for the uninitiated, but it would encourage people to learn to do use styles in the "right" way. 4. Document collaboration is a real bugaboo. We lawyers share documents repeatedly. I would create a document using styles, and send it off to a colleague for further edits. I would get it back with a mess of styles and direct formatting. I see no answer to this conundrum, simply because our programs allow so many different ways of accomplishing the same tasks, and I couldn't expect a colleague to listen to my styles tutorial when all he wanted to do was make a small edit to my proposed contract. 5. I agree that LO's styles work much better than Word's. With LO, I can list my styles hierarchically, so I can change a parameter in one high level style and have it changed in all lower level styles based on the same higher style. (So, no, you don't have to change each and every style just to change the font throughout a document). Word has styles based on other styles as well, but I have yet to find a clean way to list them in the style box in a hierarchical manner. Virgil -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles
Several of the posts have brought me to thinking a few random thoughts. 1. There's a difference between *using* styles and *creating/editing* them. In the LyX/LaTeX world, as well as the HTML/CSS world, one is indeed forced to used styles (called "environments" in LaTeX speak) because that's the way the system works. The styles/environments are created by supposed experts who create document "classes," or templates. But, neither the classes nor the environments are easy to modify. The end-user selects the environment he wants (\chapter, \section, \quote, etc.) and then lets the program do the work. As one writer mentioned, it truly separates the operations of writing and typesetting/formatting. Markdown editors in the HTML world also allow such clean separation. None of the WYSIWYG word processors (Word, LO, OO, AbiWord, etc.) provide such a clean separation between editing and formatting. And, yet... 2. In the LyX/LaTeX world, it all works very well...until you want to modify a small formatting parameter for a specific paragraph. Yes, it can be done, but it's not intuitive, nor encouraged. Despite the advanced formatting capabilities of LyX or LaTeX, few writers use them, I believe in part because making even a small change from the default settings sometimes requires a massive on-line search for the right command to change. 3. In the Word/LO world, this case of the "one off" paragraph modification is where I see resistance to styles from end-users. I've got paragraph style for just about every possible situation, but there may be a single paragraph where a user wants to change one parameter. If the user doesn't understand styles, he'll just apply direct formatting to the paragraph, without creating and/or modifying a style. Thus, just having users write with templates and styles created by others will only take people so far. At some point in time, they will need to learn how to create and/or modify styles. Otherwise, they'll have documents with a mixture of styles and direct formatting, the beginning of what could grow into a mess. I believe AbiWord has (or had) a feature to "lock styles" meaning a person could be locked out of changing formatting directly. All formatting changes would have to go through styles. I'm sure it would be a maddening feature for the uninitiated, but it would encourage people to learn to do use styles in the "right" way. 4. Document collaboration is a real bugaboo. We lawyers share documents repeatedly. I would create a document using styles, and send it off to a colleague for further edits. I would get it back with a mess of styles and direct formatting. I see no answer to this conundrum, simply because our programs allow so many different ways of accomplishing the same tasks, and I couldn't expect a colleague to listen to my styles tutorial when all he wanted to do was make a small edit to my proposed contract. 5. I agree that LO's styles work much better than Word's. With LO, I can list my styles hierarchically, so I can change a parameter in one high level style and have it changed in all lower level styles based on the same higher style. (So, no, you don't have to change each and every style just to change the font throughout a document). Word has styles based on other styles as well, but I have yet to find a clean way to list them in the style box in a hierarchical manner. Virgil -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles
On 2013-04-30 07:52, T. R. Valentine wrote: On 29 April 2013 13:00, Virgil Arrington wrote: I'd like to get some general opinions about paragraph styles. I am a huge fan of paragraph styles, page styles, and character styles. I wish they were more widely used. It makes me wonder if there is a way to make them more accessible to people less inclined to invest time in their technology as opposed to getting a task done. What I find useful when teaching about styles is to emphasise two things: how it makes it easy to change the formatting of something like section titles (change the style and all occurrences are changed) and that by using styles a consistent look-and-feel is created which makes documents look more professional. I would prefer it if there was no direct formatting. If the buttons Numbering, Bold, etc. actually applied a style on their use. They could all have their own style if need be assigned to the button. For the normal user the fact they are styles is hidden but it would mean that the document is not full of direct formatting. One of the most frustrating things is fixing other peoples documents that are full of direct formatting. steve -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles
On 4/30/2013 2:36 PM, Jean-Francois Nifenecker wrote: Le 30/04/2013 13:47, Kracked_P_P---webmaster a écrit : carried away with their complexity. People having to *write* shouldn't be bothered with any conceptual complexity (the template manufactoring). This should be taken care elsewhere by someone else. But developing Templates and Styles is what lets me concentrate on writing and not formatting. Regards, -- Kevin B. O'Brien zwil...@zwilnik.com A damsel with a dulcimer in a vision once I saw. -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles
Le 30/04/2013 13:47, Kracked_P_P---webmaster a écrit : I no longer need to write in any "required style or page format. SO, I never got into using styles. But you have a valid point in needing students to learn how to use it. The fact that writing "style" requirements change every so often. I went to 4 colleges and received 3 degrees. The problem I had was that every time I went back to college, the "standards" for foot notes, indexing, bibilography, and many other things I learn in one college English/Writing course changed. I ended up taking English and Writing courses several time to learn the new standards that the colleges were teaching and required for any paper to be turned into the professors. Then there are those classes that require specific formatting and styles for their paperwork. This clearly shows that, unless the word processing learning is part of the course, the teachers/professors/whatelse should provide a template for the paperwork they are requesting. The only problem I see with styles is some people may go and make a document so complex with styles for "everything" that it creates problems for an new user to edit/modify the document with new information or reorganize the flow of the document. Yes, sure. Any template should come with a manual and/or a refcard describing the workflow and the styles usage. The tool is the software *and* the template. The point is, styles are great in concepts, but some people can get carried away with their complexity. Sure, too. People having to *write* shouldn't be bothered with any conceptual complexity (the template manufactoring). This should be taken care elsewhere by someone else. -- Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles
Comments inline: On 04/30/2013 11:45 AM, Wolfgang Keller wrote: Do you use styles? The point with OO/LO is that unfortunately, like Word, its style concept does not allow to work in the "structure markup" way. What do you mean by a "structured markup" way? Please be specific. So, even if you tried to use styles consistently, you wouldn't be able to benefit from it the way you can with e.g. LyX/LaTeX or document processors like Wordperfect or Framemaker (or any other document processing application that I know of - except LO/OO and Word). Just look at the official documentation (which would be supposed to be a showcase of how to work with LO) and try to work with it. For example, to make the documents actually readable, try something as simple as replacing the body text typeface with one actually made for readable text. How about some specific answers instead of aaccusations? What font is unreadable? (I have been able to read them easily for more than a decade.) Why is it unreadable? What font would you prefer were used instead. What chapter and Guide are you referring to as official documentation? What version of LibreOffice was used to produce it? (This is found below the Copyright.) What paragraph style was used by LO to define the fount that was used? Why can't a person change the font from what it is to what you would prefer? I actually work with styles beginning first in OOo 1.0.2 and continuing up to today. What is it that I have been doing could have been done easier and quicker? In any document processing application with a well-implemented style concept, this would require the change of one single definition in one style. With LO/OO, just like with Word, you're in for a whole day of work. Because you'll have to modify each and every style individually and besides, due to invisible (and incorrectible) "bugs" in the formatting parts of the documents will still require manual re-formatting. And once you're done with that, besides a seriously strained wrist, you still have an unstructured spaghetti document. Please give us a specific example of what you are talking about. What bugs? Why are they causing problems. What has to be manually re-formatted? How about an example of a structured document and an unstructured spaghetti document? --Dan This is why I wouldn't use LO to teach what structure markup (e.g. "styles") is about in the first place. And why I don't use it for *writing* documents. Only for generating them from databases. Sincerely, Wolfgang -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles
> Do you use styles? The point with OO/LO is that unfortunately, like Word, its style concept does not allow to work in the "structure markup" way. So, even if you tried to use styles consistently, you wouldn't be able to benefit from it the way you can with e.g. LyX/LaTeX or document processors like Wordperfect or Framemaker (or any other document processing application that I know of - except LO/OO and Word). Just look at the official documentation (which would be supposed to be a showcase of how to work with LO) and try to work with it. For example, to make the documents actually readable, try something as simple as replacing the body text typeface with one actually made for readable text. In any document processing application with a well-implemented style concept, this would require the change of one single definition in one style. With LO/OO, just like with Word, you're in for a whole day of work. Because you'll have to modify each and every style individually and besides, due to invisible (and incorrectible) "bugs" in the formatting parts of the documents will still require manual re-formatting. And once you're done with that, besides a seriously strained wrist, you still have an unstructured spaghetti document. This is why I wouldn't use LO to teach what structure markup (e.g. "styles") is about in the first place. And why I don't use it for *writing* documents. Only for generating them from databases. Sincerely, Wolfgang -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles
Hi :) I think that is called "a teaching moment" and they are extremely rare. In 20 years of teaching one can expect about 4 of those. Regards from Tom :) > > >Just today, one of my students was stunned to watch that work. "You mean I >don't have to make the same change to every paragraph?" she asked. > > > -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles
NO it was a Writer file from the 3.4.x days. The file needed a lot of work and additions to reflect the changes from 3.6.x to 4.0.x. I was not the one who created the document, but I had it for over a year and finally had some time to work on that documentation. I almost gave up. The person must have done a lot of "experimentation" with every style option in the document, even where it was not needed. I even found a sentence that has just a few words in it with their own style that was not used anywhere else. I ended up going back to an exported unformatted .txt file and starting over from there. I hope the guy did not write the LO document in Word, but he could of, since he still has Word 2007, if I remember correctly. I use to use both Word 2003 and LO in the early days on a Win XP system, since I had to give others Word documents, so I made sure the LO .doc file looked correctly in Word. Sometimes it was easier to just do the editing in Word when I was using my laptop at their home or office. Now I just use 4.0.x on all my Windows systems, since it is better at dealing with the .doc/.docx files I am getting via email. I never went beyond MSO '03. The KISS standard is something many "experimenters" do not use many times. They want to be to "creative" for my tastes. BUT as for the original posting. . . . I really like the idea of teaching people to use LO in the higher education environments. The younger crowd would be easier to teach since they were not so "frozen" onto the MSO mentality and concepts. Making learning fun and people of all ages might learn more in a faster time and enjoy the learning process more than I found in most of my college courses, and in the high school courses I had to teach as a substitute teacher. Templates vs. Styles is a whole different discussion with pros and cons with each. For the business world, templates might be easier to deal with for the user, since they do not need to remember which styles go with which document[s] they are required to make. Then you do not need to see if the "master document" creator's work with styles gets to work with all of the user's individual desk systems. I really do not know how to import a number style from computer to another so they can be used on different documents. The same problem might come up with one writer including a font in their document that the next person using it does not have that font installed. The document states/displays the correct font in the font drop-down window, but Writer tries to use a different installed font as a substitute. On 04/30/2013 08:30 AM, Tom Davies wrote: Hi :) I think you are thinking of Word rather than Writer. Also you are talking about "House Styles" for different companies, different institutions, different professors. Language and fashions do evolve too as you were also saying. In Word Styles do tend to get very messy very quickly and it's overly complicated. Plus you can never be sure that a style's definition will hold all the way through a document. By contrast LibreOffice Styles "Cascade" (a bit like Css but different) so it's easy to change (for example the font of) one level of headings and find that change ripples out to other relevant styles. KISS for internally consistent documents. Regards from Tom :) From: Kracked_P_P---webmaster To: users@global.libreoffice.org Sent: Tuesday, 30 April 2013, 12:47 Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles I no longer need to write in any "required style or page format. SO, I never got into using styles. But you have a valid point in needing students to learn how to use it. The fact that writing "style" requirements change every so often. I went to 4 colleges and received 3 degrees. The problem I had was that every time I went back to college, the "standards" for foot notes, indexing, bibilography, and many other things I learn in one college English/Writing course changed. I ended up taking English and Writing courses several time to learn the new standards that the colleges were teaching and required for any paper to be turned into the professors. Then there are those classes that require specific formatting and styles for their paperwork. If you create a set of styles, one per class/course/teacher, then you can write the documents and then apply the styles needed by the professor, or even the business reader. I myself have run across times where using styles would work for me, but I never really learned how to use them correctly. Never took the time. Tom's and other postings about getting students to "compete" in how fast it would be to format a "mangled" text to a predefined style and the others doing it the "hard way". Then having
Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles
One additional thought: those who have learnt HTML and CSS should find using styles quite natural — it is the same separation of content from presentation (styles). -- T. R. Valentine Your friends will argue with you. Your enemies don't care. 'When I get a little money I buy books; and if any is left I buy food and clothes.' -- Erasmus -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles
Same experience here; the rules keep changing, so I stick with the Keep It Simple system ;-) On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 6:47 AM, Kracked_P_P---webmaster < webmas...@krackedpress.com> wrote: > I no longer need to write in any "required style or page format. SO, I > never got into using styles. But you have a valid point in needing > students to learn how to use it. The fact that writing "style" > requirements change every so often. I went to 4 colleges and received 3 > degrees. The problem I had was that every time I went back to college, the > "standards" for foot notes, indexing, bibilography, and many other things I > learn in one college English/Writing course changed. I ended up taking > English and Writing courses several time to learn the new standards that > the colleges were teaching and required for any paper to be turned into the > professors. Then there are those classes that require specific formatting > and styles for their paperwork. > > If you create a set of styles, one per class/course/teacher, then you can > write the documents and then apply the styles needed by the professor, or > even the business reader. > > I myself have run across times where using styles would work for me, but I > never really learned how to use them correctly. Never took the time. > > Tom's and other postings about getting students to "compete" in how fast > it would be to format a "mangled" text to a predefined style and the others > doing it the "hard way". Then having the students "compete" in a race to > see who can create a style from scratch for the document. I bet there > would be different version created that do the same end results. > > The only problem I see with styles is some people may go and make a > document so complex with styles for "everything" that it creates problems > for an new user to edit/modify the document with new information or > reorganize the flow of the document. I had to do that a few months ago and > it was not easy. It seemed that every possible portion of the document, > i.e. paragraph text and titles, columns and frames, images and headlines, > were all defined in such a way that when moving text and images around the > document, the styles setup would try to define the wrong text or document > element. The editing and moving of text and images broke the very complex > styling of the document. > > The point is, styles are great in concepts, but some people can get > carried away with their complexity. I have a book editor friend that I > email back and forth with. She has some real horror stories trying to edit > manuscripts that the author wrote using a complex set of styles. So if you > teach and/or use styles, kept them simple enough that it does not get in > the way of the next person needing to modify the document. > > > On 04/30/2013 06:56 AM, Tom Davies wrote: > >> Hi :) >> I am a bit bitter about this sort of thing too. Even back when i was in >> school i could see teachers clearly trying to help people. Unfortunately >> general attitudes of the kids in the classroom meant that even those of us >> that were interested in learning the skill had a tough time. It didn't >> improve at Uni. >> >> >> There have been some excellent suggestions in this list. Perhaps set a >> mini-competition half the class using 1 technique. Perhaps ask for hands up >> if they can't cope with using styles, in order to play to the machismo of >> some. When the results are in ask who can change the formatting of their >> document fastest. >> >> Another idea is to get a horribly mangled paragraph and challenge them to >> insert it into their document to fit the style of their own work. >> >> I frequently have to do this for my company's newsletter and at first >> found it took hours to try to fix people's messes in Word. In LibreOffice >> i just pasted as unformatted and then applied styles taking just a couple >> of minutes at most. >> >> However i still think it's easier to teach people things they want to >> learn. Trying to trick them into wanting to learn about something else is >> a tough challenge. >> >> Regards from >> >> Tom :) >> >> >> >> >> >>> From: T. R. Valentine >>> To: LibreOffice-list >>> Sent: Tuesday, 30 April 2013, 4:08 >>> Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles >>> >>> >>> On 29 April 2013 20:48, Virgil Arrington wrote: >>> >>> It pains me to watch people mouse around a document going from
Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles
On 4/30/2013 6:56 AM, Tom Davies wrote: Hi :) I am a bit bitter about this sort of thing too. Even back when i was in school i could see teachers clearly trying to help people. Unfortunately general attitudes of the kids in the classroom meant that even those of us that were interested in learning the skill had a tough time. It didn't improve at Uni. There have been some excellent suggestions in this list. Perhaps set a mini-competition half the class using 1 technique. Perhaps ask for hands up if they can't cope with using styles, in order to play to the machismo of some. When the results are in ask who can change the formatting of their document fastest. Another idea is to get a horribly mangled paragraph and challenge them to insert it into their document to fit the style of their own work. I frequently have to do this for my company's newsletter and at first found it took hours to try to fix people's messes in Word. In LibreOffice i just pasted as unformatted and then applied styles taking just a couple of minutes at most. However i still think it's easier to teach people things they want to learn. Trying to trick them into wanting to learn about something else is a tough challenge. Regards from Tom :) I first learned about styles and templates with Microsoft Word, and I think it is clear that this is something that all word processors do, for a very good reason. Back in the 1990s I developed a course for our degree completion students (basically people in their 40s who had started on a bachelors degree but never finished it). They needed to demonstrate proficiency with office software programs to graduate, and if they could not pass a test they could take my course and pass it. What almost always happened was that they put it off until the last possible time either because they thought they already knew it all, or because they thought they couldn't learn computer stuff and were afraid. By the time I was done with them, they almost always complained that they should have been given the course at the beginning because it would have saved them so much time. So people can learn this, and people can see the benefit of learning this. I now do training sessions at placed like Ohio LinuxFest, and they are very well received. I just did another this past weekend at Penguicon, and had very enthusiastic participation. These are all people who chose to be there, so there is no possible implication of force involved. These are tools, and every tool works best if you learn how to do it properly. If you pick up the wrong saw and use it the wrong way, you may eventually cut the piece of wood, but it will look bad and take a lot more effort than it should. Regards, -- Kevin B. O'Brien zwil...@zwilnik.com A damsel with a dulcimer in a vision once I saw. -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles
Hi :) I think you are thinking of Word rather than Writer. Also you are talking about "House Styles" for different companies, different institutions, different professors. Language and fashions do evolve too as you were also saying. In Word Styles do tend to get very messy very quickly and it's overly complicated. Plus you can never be sure that a style's definition will hold all the way through a document. By contrast LibreOffice Styles "Cascade" (a bit like Css but different) so it's easy to change (for example the font of) one level of headings and find that change ripples out to other relevant styles. KISS for internally consistent documents. Regards from Tom :) > > From: Kracked_P_P---webmaster >To: users@global.libreoffice.org >Sent: Tuesday, 30 April 2013, 12:47 >Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles > > > >I no longer need to write in any "required style or page format. SO, I never >got into using styles. But you have a valid point in needing students to >learn how to use it. The fact that writing "style" requirements change every >so often. I went to 4 colleges and received 3 degrees. The problem I had was >that every time I went back to college, the "standards" for foot notes, >indexing, bibilography, and many other things I learn in one college >English/Writing course changed. I ended up taking English and Writing courses >several time to learn the new standards that the colleges were teaching and >required for any paper to be turned into the professors. Then there are those >classes that require specific formatting and styles for their paperwork. > >If you create a set of styles, one per class/course/teacher, then you can >write the documents and then apply the styles needed by the professor, or even >the business reader. > >I myself have run across times where using styles would work for me, but I >never really learned how to use them correctly. Never took the time. > >Tom's and other postings about getting students to "compete" in how fast it >would be to format a "mangled" text to a predefined style and the others doing >it the "hard way". Then having the students "compete" in a race to see who >can create a style from scratch for the document. I bet there would be >different version created that do the same end results. > >The only problem I see with styles is some people may go and make a document >so complex with styles for "everything" that it creates problems for an new >user to edit/modify the document with new information or reorganize the flow >of the document. I had to do that a few months ago and it was not easy. It >seemed that every possible portion of the document, i.e. paragraph text and >titles, columns and frames, images and headlines, were all defined in such a >way that when moving text and images around the document, the styles setup >would try to define the wrong text or document element. The editing and >moving of text and images broke the very complex styling of the document. > >The point is, styles are great in concepts, but some people can get carried >away with their complexity. I have a book editor friend that I email back and >forth with. She has some real horror stories trying to edit manuscripts that >the author wrote using a complex set of styles. So if you teach and/or use >styles, kept them simple enough that it does not get in the way of the next >person needing to modify the document. > >On 04/30/2013 06:56 AM, Tom Davies wrote: >> Hi :) >> I am a bit bitter about this sort of thing too. Even back when i was in >> school i could see teachers clearly trying to help people. Unfortunately >> general attitudes of the kids in the classroom meant that even those of us >> that were interested in learning the skill had a tough time. It didn't >> improve at Uni. >> >> >> There have been some excellent suggestions in this list. Perhaps set a >> mini-competition half the class using 1 technique. Perhaps ask for hands up >> if they can't cope with using styles, in order to play to the machismo of >> some. When the results are in ask who can change the formatting of their >> document fastest. >> >> Another idea is to get a horribly mangled paragraph and challenge them to >> insert it into their document to fit the style of their own work. >> >> I frequently have to do this for my company's newsletter and at first found >> it took hours to try to fix people's messes in Word. In LibreOffice i just >> pasted as unformatted and
Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles
I no longer need to write in any "required style or page format. SO, I never got into using styles. But you have a valid point in needing students to learn how to use it. The fact that writing "style" requirements change every so often. I went to 4 colleges and received 3 degrees. The problem I had was that every time I went back to college, the "standards" for foot notes, indexing, bibilography, and many other things I learn in one college English/Writing course changed. I ended up taking English and Writing courses several time to learn the new standards that the colleges were teaching and required for any paper to be turned into the professors. Then there are those classes that require specific formatting and styles for their paperwork. If you create a set of styles, one per class/course/teacher, then you can write the documents and then apply the styles needed by the professor, or even the business reader. I myself have run across times where using styles would work for me, but I never really learned how to use them correctly. Never took the time. Tom's and other postings about getting students to "compete" in how fast it would be to format a "mangled" text to a predefined style and the others doing it the "hard way". Then having the students "compete" in a race to see who can create a style from scratch for the document. I bet there would be different version created that do the same end results. The only problem I see with styles is some people may go and make a document so complex with styles for "everything" that it creates problems for an new user to edit/modify the document with new information or reorganize the flow of the document. I had to do that a few months ago and it was not easy. It seemed that every possible portion of the document, i.e. paragraph text and titles, columns and frames, images and headlines, were all defined in such a way that when moving text and images around the document, the styles setup would try to define the wrong text or document element. The editing and moving of text and images broke the very complex styling of the document. The point is, styles are great in concepts, but some people can get carried away with their complexity. I have a book editor friend that I email back and forth with. She has some real horror stories trying to edit manuscripts that the author wrote using a complex set of styles. So if you teach and/or use styles, kept them simple enough that it does not get in the way of the next person needing to modify the document. On 04/30/2013 06:56 AM, Tom Davies wrote: Hi :) I am a bit bitter about this sort of thing too. Even back when i was in school i could see teachers clearly trying to help people. Unfortunately general attitudes of the kids in the classroom meant that even those of us that were interested in learning the skill had a tough time. It didn't improve at Uni. There have been some excellent suggestions in this list. Perhaps set a mini-competition half the class using 1 technique. Perhaps ask for hands up if they can't cope with using styles, in order to play to the machismo of some. When the results are in ask who can change the formatting of their document fastest. Another idea is to get a horribly mangled paragraph and challenge them to insert it into their document to fit the style of their own work. I frequently have to do this for my company's newsletter and at first found it took hours to try to fix people's messes in Word. In LibreOffice i just pasted as unformatted and then applied styles taking just a couple of minutes at most. However i still think it's easier to teach people things they want to learn. Trying to trick them into wanting to learn about something else is a tough challenge. Regards from Tom :) ________ From: T. R. Valentine To: LibreOffice-list Sent: Tuesday, 30 April 2013, 4:08 Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles On 29 April 2013 20:48, Virgil Arrington wrote: It pains me to watch people mouse around a document going from paragraph to paragraph trying to get formatting consistent when all they need to do is make one change to a paragraph style and "voila", every paragraph having that style is automatically changed. Just today, one of my students was stunned to watch that work. "You mean I don't have to make the same change to every paragraph?" she asked. There is a better way, and since a university pays me to teach students how to take advantage of modern technology, I feel it my duty to at least give it a college try to find a way to explain it to them. Virgil, I think it is great that you are trying to show your students a better way. I don't understand why there was an accusation (using 'Nazi' no less — that post seemed full o
Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles
Hi :) I am a bit bitter about this sort of thing too. Even back when i was in school i could see teachers clearly trying to help people. Unfortunately general attitudes of the kids in the classroom meant that even those of us that were interested in learning the skill had a tough time. It didn't improve at Uni. There have been some excellent suggestions in this list. Perhaps set a mini-competition half the class using 1 technique. Perhaps ask for hands up if they can't cope with using styles, in order to play to the machismo of some. When the results are in ask who can change the formatting of their document fastest. Another idea is to get a horribly mangled paragraph and challenge them to insert it into their document to fit the style of their own work. I frequently have to do this for my company's newsletter and at first found it took hours to try to fix people's messes in Word. In LibreOffice i just pasted as unformatted and then applied styles taking just a couple of minutes at most. However i still think it's easier to teach people things they want to learn. Trying to trick them into wanting to learn about something else is a tough challenge. Regards from Tom :) > > From: T. R. Valentine >To: LibreOffice-list >Sent: Tuesday, 30 April 2013, 4:08 >Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles > > >On 29 April 2013 20:48, Virgil Arrington wrote: > >> It pains me to watch people mouse around a document going from paragraph to >> paragraph trying to get formatting consistent when all they need to do is >> make one change to a paragraph style and "voila", every paragraph having >> that style is automatically changed. Just today, one of my students was >> stunned to watch that work. "You mean I don't have to make the same change >> to every paragraph?" she asked. > >> There is a better way, and since a university pays me to teach students how >> to take advantage of modern technology, I feel it my duty to at least give >> it a college try to find a way to explain it to them. > >Virgil, I think it is great that you are trying to show your students >a better way. I don't understand why there was an accusation (using >'Nazi' no less — that post seemed full of bitterness) that anyone was >trying to force anyone to use styles. > >Styles are a better way, but some people are resistant to change, >preferring to use a word processor as if it were merely an electronic >typewriter. As the saying goes, 'you can lead a horse to water ' > >-- >T. R. Valentine >Your friends will argue with you. Your enemies don't care. >'When I get a little money I buy books; and if any is left I buy food >and clothes.' -- Erasmus > >-- >For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org >Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ >Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette >List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ >All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted > > > -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles
On 29 April 2013 20:48, Virgil Arrington wrote: > It pains me to watch people mouse around a document going from paragraph to > paragraph trying to get formatting consistent when all they need to do is > make one change to a paragraph style and "voila", every paragraph having > that style is automatically changed. Just today, one of my students was > stunned to watch that work. "You mean I don't have to make the same change > to every paragraph?" she asked. > There is a better way, and since a university pays me to teach students how > to take advantage of modern technology, I feel it my duty to at least give > it a college try to find a way to explain it to them. Virgil, I think it is great that you are trying to show your students a better way. I don't understand why there was an accusation (using 'Nazi' no less — that post seemed full of bitterness) that anyone was trying to force anyone to use styles. Styles are a better way, but some people are resistant to change, preferring to use a word processor as if it were merely an electronic typewriter. As the saying goes, 'you can lead a horse to water ' -- T. R. Valentine Your friends will argue with you. Your enemies don't care. 'When I get a little money I buy books; and if any is left I buy food and clothes.' -- Erasmus -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles
Dave and Doug, I appreciate, Dave, hearing your perspective as a true end user. Your sentiments are those I've heard from my employees. They just need to get a brief done and filed, and they don't have time to learn the styles. Doug, obviously, nobody's trying to "force" styles on anyone. What I'm trying to do is find an effective way of persuading people that their lives would be so much better if they took the time to learn them. It pains me to watch people mouse around a document going from paragraph to paragraph trying to get formatting consistent when all they need to do is make one change to a paragraph style and "voila", every paragraph having that style is automatically changed. Just today, one of my students was stunned to watch that work. "You mean I don't have to make the same change to every paragraph?" she asked. It also pained me in my law office to see documents presented with no formatting consistency with paragraphs that are supposed to be the same looking haphazardly different. There is a better way, and since a university pays me to teach students how to take advantage of modern technology, I feel it my duty to at least give it a college try to find a way to explain it to them. Don't want to use it? Then, don't. Nobody here's going to "force" you to do it. If you want to take twice as long to create documents as it takes me (and have results that are not as good), go right ahead. Virgil -Original Message- From: Doug Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 9:06 PM To: users@global.libreoffice.org Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles On 4/29/2013 7:46 PM, Dan Lewis wrote: On 04/29/2013 05:10 PM, Dave Liesse wrote: I'll admit to not using styles, but not so much because I don't want to. I've been using the various word processing programs since PCs were first produced, before the concept of styles. They came out shortly after, of course, but they got little or no attention in the limited technical press that I followed at the time. By the time they were in widespread use, I was pretty well entrenched in my ways. I've tried reading the documentation on them, but (a) I never have the time to sit down and actually learn them and (b) the documentation isn't all it could be -- this goes for MS as well as OO/LO. The biggest problem I've had, and I still don't know the answer, is how to actually save the styles so they're available for any document. I don't like any of the defaults, but don't see the point of creating a style that is usable only in one document, so I just do all the hard-formatting I need (which may take up more disk space, but it's also a lot more flexible as far as I can tell). I'm slowly catching on, but it's going to be a while. Have you read chapter 3, Using Styles and Templates, of the Getting Started Guide? It was written using a template containing all the styles that were needed. I use the same template to write several chapters of the Base Guide. It also contains what I need even though the topics are vastly different. --Dan This whole business about forcing people to use "styles" reminds me of the "Green Belt" program that was introduced into my business about 12 years ago. It required at least a week's work to just try and make a plan for the simplest project, which, when the project was undertaken, would wind up scrapped anyway, since no-one can foresee everything. I don't know what eventually became of this--it's one of the reasons I took retirement when I did. The green-belt Nazis and your style Nazis should get along well with each other! --doug -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles
On 4/29/2013 7:46 PM, Dan Lewis wrote: On 04/29/2013 05:10 PM, Dave Liesse wrote: I'll admit to not using styles, but not so much because I don't want to. I've been using the various word processing programs since PCs were first produced, before the concept of styles. They came out shortly after, of course, but they got little or no attention in the limited technical press that I followed at the time. By the time they were in widespread use, I was pretty well entrenched in my ways. I've tried reading the documentation on them, but (a) I never have the time to sit down and actually learn them and (b) the documentation isn't all it could be -- this goes for MS as well as OO/LO. The biggest problem I've had, and I still don't know the answer, is how to actually save the styles so they're available for any document. I don't like any of the defaults, but don't see the point of creating a style that is usable only in one document, so I just do all the hard-formatting I need (which may take up more disk space, but it's also a lot more flexible as far as I can tell). I'm slowly catching on, but it's going to be a while. Have you read chapter 3, Using Styles and Templates, of the Getting Started Guide? It was written using a template containing all the styles that were needed. I use the same template to write several chapters of the Base Guide. It also contains what I need even though the topics are vastly different. --Dan This whole business about forcing people to use "styles" reminds me of the "Green Belt" program that was introduced into my business about 12 years ago. It required at least a week's work to just try and make a plan for the simplest project, which, when the project was undertaken, would wind up scrapped anyway, since no-one can foresee everything. I don't know what eventually became of this--it's one of the reasons I took retirement when I did. The green-belt Nazis and your style Nazis should get along well with each other! --doug -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles
Just ran across it recently. I've skimmed the whole thing but haven't had the time to read it in detail and apply the knowledge (I'm a tax professional, but the season doesn't end exactly on 15 April!). Hope to find some time soon to devote to it. Dave On 4/29/2013 16:46, Dan Lewis wrote: On 04/29/2013 05:10 PM, Dave Liesse wrote: I'll admit to not using styles, but not so much because I don't want to. I've been using the various word processing programs since PCs were first produced, before the concept of styles. They came out shortly after, of course, but they got little or no attention in the limited technical press that I followed at the time. By the time they were in widespread use, I was pretty well entrenched in my ways. I've tried reading the documentation on them, but (a) I never have the time to sit down and actually learn them and (b) the documentation isn't all it could be -- this goes for MS as well as OO/LO. The biggest problem I've had, and I still don't know the answer, is how to actually save the styles so they're available for any document. I don't like any of the defaults, but don't see the point of creating a style that is usable only in one document, so I just do all the hard-formatting I need (which may take up more disk space, but it's also a lot more flexible as far as I can tell). I'm slowly catching on, but it's going to be a while. Have you read chapter 3, Using Styles and Templates, of the Getting Started Guide? It was written using a template containing all the styles that were needed. I use the same template to write several chapters of the Base Guide. It also contains what I need even though the topics are vastly different. --Dan -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles
On 04/29/2013 05:10 PM, Dave Liesse wrote: I'll admit to not using styles, but not so much because I don't want to. I've been using the various word processing programs since PCs were first produced, before the concept of styles. They came out shortly after, of course, but they got little or no attention in the limited technical press that I followed at the time. By the time they were in widespread use, I was pretty well entrenched in my ways. I've tried reading the documentation on them, but (a) I never have the time to sit down and actually learn them and (b) the documentation isn't all it could be -- this goes for MS as well as OO/LO. The biggest problem I've had, and I still don't know the answer, is how to actually save the styles so they're available for any document. I don't like any of the defaults, but don't see the point of creating a style that is usable only in one document, so I just do all the hard-formatting I need (which may take up more disk space, but it's also a lot more flexible as far as I can tell). I'm slowly catching on, but it's going to be a while. Have you read chapter 3, Using Styles and Templates, of the Getting Started Guide? It was written using a template containing all the styles that were needed. I use the same template to write several chapters of the Base Guide. It also contains what I need even though the topics are vastly different. --Dan -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles
Where styles will really shine is to give the students a project of doing a complex document with and without styles and then ask them to change certain aspects to attain some consistent characteristic. Change all headings to XXX, indentation and font on all paragraphs to yyy, outline numbering to ZZZ and you will see the advantages. Steve On 2013-04-30 09:24, Virgil Arrington wrote: Great responses so far from everyone! Dan, I like your idea of giving the students a project of doing a complex document with and without styles. Virgil -Original Message- From: Dan Lewis Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 4:21 PM To: users@global.libreoffice.org Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles On 04/29/2013 03:52 PM, T. R. Valentine wrote: On 29 April 2013 13:00, Virgil Arrington wrote: I'd like to get some general opinions about paragraph styles. I am a huge fan of paragraph styles, page styles, and character styles. I wish they were more widely used. It makes me wonder if there is a way to make them more accessible to people less inclined to invest time in their technology as opposed to getting a task done. What I find useful when teaching about styles is to emphasise two things: how it makes it easy to change the formatting of something like section titles (change the style and all occurrences are changed) and that by using styles a consistent look-and-feel is created which makes documents look more professional. -- T. R. Valentine Your friends will argue with you. Your enemies don't care. 'When I get a little money I buy books; and if any is left I buy food and clothes.' -- Erasmus I have been using paragraph styles in specific and many of the styles in the Styles and Formatting Window. So much so that I dock this window at the left side of Writer. This goes back to OOo 1.02 as I was writing the Getting Started with Base Chapter in the Getting Started Guide. I extensively use list styles along with the associated paragraph styles. I have even modified the list styles to make them do what I want. Recently, I have been using Calibre to convert my writings to the ePUB format. The latter uses a style sheet for its formatting. Because the conversion from ODF to ePUB is not perfect, my experiences with styles permits me to make the changes I need in the ePUB style sheet. I also agree with a previous poster: templates are very important when using styles. I have 16 templates many of which that I have created and use. Each one contains its own set of styles (paragraph, character, lists, and page). A couple of them are for resumes that are suppose to be quite professional. I seem to remember a law firm had created its own template for their legal briefs to make sure its structure was exactly what was expected. Obviously, templates can take time to create. But once created, they can be real time savers. The only way I know to teach the importance of templates and styles is to have the students create a template with a complex layout using styles. Then have them create two papers with this layout without the use of styles. Then have them make two papers with this layout using the template. Let them determine which takes the least amount of time. Finally have them make a change in one of these papers by changing a style and then by changing things manually. See if they can even make all of the changes manually. Just some thoughts. --Dan -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles
Great responses so far from everyone! Dan, I like your idea of giving the students a project of doing a complex document with and without styles. Virgil -Original Message- From: Dan Lewis Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 4:21 PM To: users@global.libreoffice.org Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles On 04/29/2013 03:52 PM, T. R. Valentine wrote: On 29 April 2013 13:00, Virgil Arrington wrote: I'd like to get some general opinions about paragraph styles. I am a huge fan of paragraph styles, page styles, and character styles. I wish they were more widely used. It makes me wonder if there is a way to make them more accessible to people less inclined to invest time in their technology as opposed to getting a task done. What I find useful when teaching about styles is to emphasise two things: how it makes it easy to change the formatting of something like section titles (change the style and all occurrences are changed) and that by using styles a consistent look-and-feel is created which makes documents look more professional. -- T. R. Valentine Your friends will argue with you. Your enemies don't care. 'When I get a little money I buy books; and if any is left I buy food and clothes.' -- Erasmus I have been using paragraph styles in specific and many of the styles in the Styles and Formatting Window. So much so that I dock this window at the left side of Writer. This goes back to OOo 1.02 as I was writing the Getting Started with Base Chapter in the Getting Started Guide. I extensively use list styles along with the associated paragraph styles. I have even modified the list styles to make them do what I want. Recently, I have been using Calibre to convert my writings to the ePUB format. The latter uses a style sheet for its formatting. Because the conversion from ODF to ePUB is not perfect, my experiences with styles permits me to make the changes I need in the ePUB style sheet. I also agree with a previous poster: templates are very important when using styles. I have 16 templates many of which that I have created and use. Each one contains its own set of styles (paragraph, character, lists, and page). A couple of them are for resumes that are suppose to be quite professional. I seem to remember a law firm had created its own template for their legal briefs to make sure its structure was exactly what was expected. Obviously, templates can take time to create. But once created, they can be real time savers. The only way I know to teach the importance of templates and styles is to have the students create a template with a complex layout using styles. Then have them create two papers with this layout without the use of styles. Then have them make two papers with this layout using the template. Let them determine which takes the least amount of time. Finally have them make a change in one of these papers by changing a style and then by changing things manually. See if they can even make all of the changes manually. Just some thoughts. --Dan -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles
I'll admit to not using styles, but not so much because I don't want to. I've been using the various word processing programs since PCs were first produced, before the concept of styles. They came out shortly after, of course, but they got little or no attention in the limited technical press that I followed at the time. By the time they were in widespread use, I was pretty well entrenched in my ways. I've tried reading the documentation on them, but (a) I never have the time to sit down and actually learn them and (b) the documentation isn't all it could be -- this goes for MS as well as OO/LO. The biggest problem I've had, and I still don't know the answer, is how to actually save the styles so they're available for any document. I don't like any of the defaults, but don't see the point of creating a style that is usable only in one document, so I just do all the hard-formatting I need (which may take up more disk space, but it's also a lot more flexible as far as I can tell). I'm slowly catching on, but it's going to be a while. On 4/29/2013 11:00, Virgil Arrington wrote: I'd like to get some general opinions about paragraph styles. I am a retired lawyer who led a local government law office. When I was working at that office, I tried in vain to get my employees to use paragraph styles. For them, styles were a bother to set up and maintain. I love using them, but then I'm as much a word processor junkie as I am an end-user. Now, I teach a paralegal course in technology at my local university. I recently spent three weeks teaching styles to my students and they have resisted me all the way. My sense is that people just trying to get their work done see paragraph styles as an nuisance, not appreciating the amount of time they can save by investing a little at the beginning. What about the rest of you. Do you use styles? Do you find that other less-techy types avoid them? It makes me wonder if there is a way to make them more accessible to people less inclined to invest time in their technology as opposed to getting a task done. Virgil -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles
On 04/29/2013 03:52 PM, T. R. Valentine wrote: On 29 April 2013 13:00, Virgil Arrington wrote: I'd like to get some general opinions about paragraph styles. I am a huge fan of paragraph styles, page styles, and character styles. I wish they were more widely used. It makes me wonder if there is a way to make them more accessible to people less inclined to invest time in their technology as opposed to getting a task done. What I find useful when teaching about styles is to emphasise two things: how it makes it easy to change the formatting of something like section titles (change the style and all occurrences are changed) and that by using styles a consistent look-and-feel is created which makes documents look more professional. -- T. R. Valentine Your friends will argue with you. Your enemies don't care. 'When I get a little money I buy books; and if any is left I buy food and clothes.' -- Erasmus I have been using paragraph styles in specific and many of the styles in the Styles and Formatting Window. So much so that I dock this window at the left side of Writer. This goes back to OOo 1.02 as I was writing the Getting Started with Base Chapter in the Getting Started Guide. I extensively use list styles along with the associated paragraph styles. I have even modified the list styles to make them do what I want. Recently, I have been using Calibre to convert my writings to the ePUB format. The latter uses a style sheet for its formatting. Because the conversion from ODF to ePUB is not perfect, my experiences with styles permits me to make the changes I need in the ePUB style sheet. I also agree with a previous poster: templates are very important when using styles. I have 16 templates many of which that I have created and use. Each one contains its own set of styles (paragraph, character, lists, and page). A couple of them are for resumes that are suppose to be quite professional. I seem to remember a law firm had created its own template for their legal briefs to make sure its structure was exactly what was expected. Obviously, templates can take time to create. But once created, they can be real time savers. The only way I know to teach the importance of templates and styles is to have the students create a template with a complex layout using styles. Then have them create two papers with this layout without the use of styles. Then have them make two papers with this layout using the template. Let them determine which takes the least amount of time. Finally have them make a change in one of these papers by changing a style and then by changing things manually. See if they can even make all of the changes manually. Just some thoughts. --Dan -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles
On 29 April 2013 13:00, Virgil Arrington wrote: > I'd like to get some general opinions about paragraph styles. I am a huge fan of paragraph styles, page styles, and character styles. I wish they were more widely used. > It makes me wonder if there is a way to make them more accessible to people > less inclined to invest time in their technology as opposed to getting a > task done. What I find useful when teaching about styles is to emphasise two things: how it makes it easy to change the formatting of something like section titles (change the style and all occurrences are changed) and that by using styles a consistent look-and-feel is created which makes documents look more professional. -- T. R. Valentine Your friends will argue with you. Your enemies don't care. 'When I get a little money I buy books; and if any is left I buy food and clothes.' -- Erasmus -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles
Sounds as if you're referring to an outline; one composes his thoughts in an outline then writes the main paragraph then the concluding paragraphs - [newspaper writing] or expands on each for prose writing - Well, from a reporter/writer's point of view ... oops, there I go again - off on another tangent ;-) On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 1:08 PM, Kevin O'Brien wrote: On 4/29/2013 2:00 PM, Virgil Arrington wrote: > >> I'd like to get some general opinions about paragraph styles. >> >> I am a retired lawyer who led a local government law office. When I was >> working at that office, I tried in vain to get my employees to use >> paragraph styles. For them, styles were a bother to set up and maintain. I >> love using them, but then I'm as much a word processor junkie as I am an >> end-user. >> >> Now, I teach a paralegal course in technology at my local university. I >> recently spent three weeks teaching styles to my students and they have >> resisted me all the way. My sense is that people just trying to get their >> work done see paragraph styles as an nuisance, not appreciating the amount >> of time they can save by investing a little at the beginning. >> >> What about the rest of you. Do you use styles? Do you find that other >> less-techy types avoid them? >> >> It makes me wonder if there is a way to make them more accessible to >> people less inclined to invest time in their technology as opposed to >> getting a task done. >> >> Virgil >> >> > I am with you, Virgil. I just taught some folks at a convention this > weekend about this. My way of doing this combines Styles and Templates in > such a way as to automate the workflow, which is a tangible benefit you can > see right up front. My default template has a modified Heading 1 that it > opens to automatically. That is set to go to a Heading 2 as the next style, > and the Heading 2 is set to go to a Paragraph style as the next one. This > is what I do for my workflow, which tends to be memos and technical > writing, but I think anyone can see the payoff this way since it reduces a > lot of work once you set it up. > > Regards, > > -- > Kevin B. O'Brien > zwil...@zwilnik.com > A damsel with a dulcimer in a vision once I saw. > > -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles
Hello Virgil, This is a very interesting thread you're opening and I'm glad to "meet" people having the very same concerns I've got for years. Le 29/04/2013 20:00, Virgil Arrington a écrit : I'd like to get some general opinions about paragraph styles. I am a retired lawyer who led a local government law office. When I was working at that office, I tried in vain to get my employees to use paragraph styles. For them, styles were a bother to set up and maintain. I love using them, but then I'm as much a word processor junkie as I am an end-user. Now, I teach a paralegal course in technology at my local university. I recently spent three weeks teaching styles to my students and they have resisted me all the way. My sense is that people just trying to get their work done see paragraph styles as an nuisance, not appreciating the amount of time they can save by investing a little at the beginning. What about the rest of you. Do you use styles? Do you find that other less-techy types avoid them? I'm on that side as well. But my feeling is that you won't teach efficiently about styles to *end-users* if they don't get correctly crafted templates from the very beginning. IOW, there are two sides to word-processors use: the writer side, on which most the users are, and the conception side where lies a very small crowd. IMO, only the latter need a deep knowledge about styles and templates. The formers only need (at first) to *use* the templates that are provided to them by conceptors. This way, they only have to bother to they actual job: writing. When they are used to the concepts and can see them at work on a daily basis, then the writers can grab the knowledge. Not at first. Well, this is the way I think things should be set in any organisation. I guess much of your failures wrt styles training are because you're trying to teach a technique that is way beyond the common user's needs and which requires a very steep learning curve (BTDTGTTS). This means that my way of training is template-centered: teach the basics of word-processing (3 hrs), then teach to use the template-s (1-3 hrs per template depending upon its complexity). Styles have to be shown and explained but through the template uses. One thing is: when a writer can use a correctly crafted template, s-he can use any template. The difficult part being to design a "correct" template. As a summary, I'd say that the tool is a two-sided one, neither side being independant: -> The tool is the software *and* the template. My 2 euro-cents, -- Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles
Hi :) In MS Office styles are an excessive waste of time. You just have to accept that documents will have changing fonts, bullet-point sizes, mis-numbering in lists and even changes in language used by spell checkers. In LibreOffice just start by using the default ones. Don't even set-up new ones. Instantly you see a rise in quality and productivity. Then show how changing the defaults ripples through the whole document but keeps it looking very high quality. The problem is that people have become so accustomed to the poor quality of documents that anyone insisting on higher quality is seen as a fuddy-duddy, someone to ignore and ridicule even if that person is in authority. I recommend mentioning it briefly but move on swiftly. You can't teach tricks to people that don't want to learn. Perhaps have an "advanced class" where people have to pay per lesson as an extra for more detail on set topics, perhaps as arranged out-of-school lessons on an individual basis but make sure it's somewhere public. Regards from Tom :) > > From: Kevin O'Brien >To: users@global.libreoffice.org >Sent: Monday, 29 April 2013, 19:08 >Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles > > >On 4/29/2013 2:00 PM, Virgil Arrington wrote: >> I'd like to get some general opinions about paragraph styles. >> >> I am a retired lawyer who led a local government law office. When I >> was working at that office, I tried in vain to get my employees to use >> paragraph styles. For them, styles were a bother to set up and >> maintain. I love using them, but then I'm as much a word processor >> junkie as I am an end-user. >> >> Now, I teach a paralegal course in technology at my local university. >> I recently spent three weeks teaching styles to my students and they >> have resisted me all the way. My sense is that people just trying to >> get their work done see paragraph styles as an nuisance, not >> appreciating the amount of time they can save by investing a little at >> the beginning. >> >> What about the rest of you. Do you use styles? Do you find that other >> less-techy types avoid them? >> >> It makes me wonder if there is a way to make them more accessible to >> people less inclined to invest time in their technology as opposed to >> getting a task done. >> >> Virgil >> > >I am with you, Virgil. I just taught some folks at a convention this >weekend about this. My way of doing this combines Styles and Templates >in such a way as to automate the workflow, which is a tangible benefit >you can see right up front. My default template has a modified Heading 1 >that it opens to automatically. That is set to go to a Heading 2 as the >next style, and the Heading 2 is set to go to a Paragraph style as the >next one. This is what I do for my workflow, which tends to be memos and >technical writing, but I think anyone can see the payoff this way since >it reduces a lot of work once you set it up. > >Regards, > >-- >Kevin B. O'Brien >zwil...@zwilnik.com >A damsel with a dulcimer in a vision once I saw. > > >-- >For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org >Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ >Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette >List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ >All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted > > > -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles
On 4/29/2013 2:00 PM, Virgil Arrington wrote: I'd like to get some general opinions about paragraph styles. I am a retired lawyer who led a local government law office. When I was working at that office, I tried in vain to get my employees to use paragraph styles. For them, styles were a bother to set up and maintain. I love using them, but then I'm as much a word processor junkie as I am an end-user. Now, I teach a paralegal course in technology at my local university. I recently spent three weeks teaching styles to my students and they have resisted me all the way. My sense is that people just trying to get their work done see paragraph styles as an nuisance, not appreciating the amount of time they can save by investing a little at the beginning. What about the rest of you. Do you use styles? Do you find that other less-techy types avoid them? It makes me wonder if there is a way to make them more accessible to people less inclined to invest time in their technology as opposed to getting a task done. Virgil I am with you, Virgil. I just taught some folks at a convention this weekend about this. My way of doing this combines Styles and Templates in such a way as to automate the workflow, which is a tangible benefit you can see right up front. My default template has a modified Heading 1 that it opens to automatically. That is set to go to a Heading 2 as the next style, and the Heading 2 is set to go to a Paragraph style as the next one. This is what I do for my workflow, which tends to be memos and technical writing, but I think anyone can see the payoff this way since it reduces a lot of work once you set it up. Regards, -- Kevin B. O'Brien zwil...@zwilnik.com A damsel with a dulcimer in a vision once I saw. -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles for list styles
> Yes, I see what you mean. Personally, I think this is unnecessarily > complex and difficult to understand. It is not the Writer Guide. It is > these styles: That's my very impression too. The guide is clear in what it states, but the styles obfuscate the message. > What seems strange is that the Indent & Spacing for Numbering 1 and > Numbering 1 Cont. are identical. What was the reason for this? I also Not exactly, they differ in the first line indent setting. Numbering 1 looks like (except for the numbering itself): 1. blah blah blah <--- first line blah blah blah <--- following lines Instead Numbering 1 Cont looks like: blah blah blah <--- first line blah blah blah <--- following lines So, regarding the indentation, the implication seems to be: Numbering 1 Start (Numbering 1 Numbering 1 Cont * ) * . . . Numbering 1 End Regards -- Carlos > >> On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 10:05 AM, Dan Lewis wrote: >> > On Wed, 2012-05-09 at 23:45 -0300, Carlos Pita wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> >> >> >> I find this description in the documentation very misleading: >> >> >> >> """ >> >> Each of the list styles predefined in Writer has four associated >> >> paragraph styles. For example, the >> >> Numbering 1 list style is associated with four paragraph styles: >> >> Numbering 1 >> >> Numbering 1 Cont. >> >> Numbering 1 End >> >> Numbering 1 Start >> >> """ >> >> >> >> In what sense list style "Numbering 1" is related to paragraph styles >> >> "Numbering 1 *"? What one can see is that the N in paragraph styles >> >> "Numbering N *" is related to indentation level and not intended for >> >> working in tandem with the list style "Numbering N". One can use >> >> paragraph style "Numbering 1" with any of the list styles, because >> >> concerns seem to be completely orthogonal. >> >> >> >> Can you clarify the relationship between paragraph styles "Numbering N >> >> *" and list style "Numbering N"? >> >> >> >> What scenarios are paragraph styles "Numbering N *" and "List N *" >> >> intended for? >> >> >> >> Thank you a lot >> >> -- >> >> Carlos >> > >> >> > documentation did you mean? >> > I think the answer you are seeking is found in the Styles and >> > Formating window. >> > Use the F11 key to open it. There are several icons at the top; the >> > one of the left (Paragraph styles) is the one you want. At the bottom of >> > the window is a drop down list with Automatic selected by Default >> > (unless you have changed it). Select "All Styles". In that list you will >> > find the Numbering N * paragraph styles. Right click anyone of them and >> > select Modify from the context menu (it is a pop up window.) Click the >> > "Outline & Numbering" tab. When you want to add a numbering or bullet >> > style to your paragraph style, you select it here. >> > The paragraph style dictates the properties of the paragraph. The >> > numbering (or list [bullet]) style dictates the numbering that appears >> > at the beginning of each paragraph. >> > >> > --Dan >> > >> > >> > -- >> > For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org >> > Problems? >> > http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ >> > Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette >> > List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ >> > All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be >> > deleted >> > > > > > -- > For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org > Problems? > http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ > Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette > List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ > All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles for list styles
On Thu, 2012-05-10 at 15:34 -0300, Carlos Pita wrote: > Hi all, > > > Was this documentation in a Styles chapter of the Writer Guide > > perhaps? If so, where in this guide was it located? If not, what > > It's quoted verbatim from LibreOffice Writer Guide 3.4.x, chapter 6 or > 7 (sorry, I'm not able to access the file just right now). > > Dan, I understand how styles work, my problem is more about how > provided styles are intended to be used. What is confusing to me is > that the "Numbering N" or "List N" paragraph styles come with > increasing indentation levels, suggesting that they're intended to > somehow nest lists up to the 5th level instead of being used in a > close 1-1 relationship with corresponding list styles, as can be > inferred from the guide. > > Gary has clarified the issue. Perhaps the styles should all be > indented the same by default and just control the interline spacing > and things like that. > > Another related issue is the purpose of the "List N" vs "List N Cont" > paragraph styles. From the indentation in the styles one can infer > what follows: > > | aditional space here > First item <--- Start style > > Internal item <--- base style >Continuation of internal item<--- Cont style > > Last item<--- End style > | aditional space here > > That cont seems to be intended to follow the base style is suggested > by the default indentation of the manually formatted lists. For > example: > > 2. Iternal item > More text > > Continuation of item 2 > > The indentation provided by the Cont style is exactly the indentation > needed by "Continuation of item 2" in a manually formatted list in > order to be left aligned with the item text. But this seems misleading > again, because the guide explains that Start will be usually linked to > Cont which will be linked to End, for lists where a single style (the > base style) isn't enough. Briefly, the alternative interpretations > are: > > Start->base(->Cont)->End > > vs > > Start->Cont->End or base (for simple formatting requirements) > > I'll copy the relevant passages of the documentation for this last > issue asap, but you can see that the problem is essentially the same: > default style indentation that seems to be at odds with the usage > described by the guide, maybe because of historical reasons. > > Thanks a lot > -- > Carlos Yes, I see what you mean. Personally, I think this is unnecessarily complex and difficult to understand. It is not the Writer Guide. It is these styles: Numbering 1, Numbering 1 Cont. Numbering 1 End, and Numbering 1 Start. What seems strange is that the Indent & Spacing for Numbering 1 and Numbering 1 Cont. are identical. What was the reason for this? I also not that Numbering 1 Start has a 2 line spacing (0.42cm) above it, and Numbering 1 End has 2 line spacing (0.42) below it. That also seems to be more than needed. If your Writer Guide used ODT format instead of PDF, you would see that we use three styles instead of four: OOoNum 123 Cont., OOoNum 123 Start, and OOoNum 123 End. It has its strange point too: OOoNum 123 Start and OOoNum 123 Cont. have identical Indent & Spacing entries. Perhaps I need to read what the Writer Guide mentions about this. Chapters 6 and 7 are the Style chapters of WG. --Dan > On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 10:05 AM, Dan Lewis wrote: > > On Wed, 2012-05-09 at 23:45 -0300, Carlos Pita wrote: > >> Hi all, > >> > >> I find this description in the documentation very misleading: > >> > >> """ > >> Each of the list styles predefined in Writer has four associated > >> paragraph styles. For example, the > >> Numbering 1 list style is associated with four paragraph styles: > >> Numbering 1 > >> Numbering 1 Cont. > >> Numbering 1 End > >> Numbering 1 Start > >> """ > >> > >> In what sense list style "Numbering 1" is related to paragraph styles > >> "Numbering 1 *"? What one can see is that the N in paragraph styles > >> "Numbering N *" is related to indentation level and not intended for > >> working in tandem with the list style "Numbering N". One can use > >> paragraph style "Numbering 1" with any of the list styles, because > >> concerns seem to be completely orthogonal. > >> > >> Can you clarify the relationship between paragraph styles "Numbering N > >> *" and list style "Numbering N"? > >> > >> What scenarios are paragraph styles "Numbering N *" and "List N *" > >> intended for? > >> > >> Thank you a lot > >> -- > >> Carlos > > > > > documentation did you mean? > > I think the answer you are seeking is found in the Styles and > > Formating window. > > Use the F11 key to open it. There are several icons at the top; the > > one of the left (Paragraph styles) is the one you want. At the bottom of > > the window is a drop down list with Automatic selected by Default > > (unless you have changed it). Select "All Styles". In that list you will > > find
Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles for list styles
Hi all, > Was this documentation in a Styles chapter of the Writer Guide > perhaps? If so, where in this guide was it located? If not, what It's quoted verbatim from LibreOffice Writer Guide 3.4.x, chapter 6 or 7 (sorry, I'm not able to access the file just right now). Dan, I understand how styles work, my problem is more about how provided styles are intended to be used. What is confusing to me is that the "Numbering N" or "List N" paragraph styles come with increasing indentation levels, suggesting that they're intended to somehow nest lists up to the 5th level instead of being used in a close 1-1 relationship with corresponding list styles, as can be inferred from the guide. Gary has clarified the issue. Perhaps the styles should all be indented the same by default and just control the interline spacing and things like that. Another related issue is the purpose of the "List N" vs "List N Cont" paragraph styles. From the indentation in the styles one can infer what follows: | aditional space here First item <--- Start style Internal item <--- base style Continuation of internal item<--- Cont style Last item<--- End style | aditional space here That cont seems to be intended to follow the base style is suggested by the default indentation of the manually formatted lists. For example: 2. Iternal item More text Continuation of item 2 The indentation provided by the Cont style is exactly the indentation needed by "Continuation of item 2" in a manually formatted list in order to be left aligned with the item text. But this seems misleading again, because the guide explains that Start will be usually linked to Cont which will be linked to End, for lists where a single style (the base style) isn't enough. Briefly, the alternative interpretations are: Start->base(->Cont)->End vs Start->Cont->End or base (for simple formatting requirements) I'll copy the relevant passages of the documentation for this last issue asap, but you can see that the problem is essentially the same: default style indentation that seems to be at odds with the usage described by the guide, maybe because of historical reasons. Thanks a lot -- Carlos On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 10:05 AM, Dan Lewis wrote: > On Wed, 2012-05-09 at 23:45 -0300, Carlos Pita wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> I find this description in the documentation very misleading: >> >> """ >> Each of the list styles predefined in Writer has four associated >> paragraph styles. For example, the >> Numbering 1 list style is associated with four paragraph styles: >> Numbering 1 >> Numbering 1 Cont. >> Numbering 1 End >> Numbering 1 Start >> """ >> >> In what sense list style "Numbering 1" is related to paragraph styles >> "Numbering 1 *"? What one can see is that the N in paragraph styles >> "Numbering N *" is related to indentation level and not intended for >> working in tandem with the list style "Numbering N". One can use >> paragraph style "Numbering 1" with any of the list styles, because >> concerns seem to be completely orthogonal. >> >> Can you clarify the relationship between paragraph styles "Numbering N >> *" and list style "Numbering N"? >> >> What scenarios are paragraph styles "Numbering N *" and "List N *" intended >> for? >> >> Thank you a lot >> -- >> Carlos > > documentation did you mean? > I think the answer you are seeking is found in the Styles and > Formating window. > Use the F11 key to open it. There are several icons at the top; the > one of the left (Paragraph styles) is the one you want. At the bottom of > the window is a drop down list with Automatic selected by Default > (unless you have changed it). Select "All Styles". In that list you will > find the Numbering N * paragraph styles. Right click anyone of them and > select Modify from the context menu (it is a pop up window.) Click the > "Outline & Numbering" tab. When you want to add a numbering or bullet > style to your paragraph style, you select it here. > The paragraph style dictates the properties of the paragraph. The > numbering (or list [bullet]) style dictates the numbering that appears > at the beginning of each paragraph. > > --Dan > > > -- > For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org > Problems? > http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ > Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette > List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ > All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived
Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles for list styles
On Wed, 2012-05-09 at 23:45 -0300, Carlos Pita wrote: > Hi all, > > I find this description in the documentation very misleading: > > """ > Each of the list styles predefined in Writer has four associated > paragraph styles. For example, the > Numbering 1 list style is associated with four paragraph styles: > Numbering 1 > Numbering 1 Cont. > Numbering 1 End > Numbering 1 Start > """ > > In what sense list style "Numbering 1" is related to paragraph styles > "Numbering 1 *"? What one can see is that the N in paragraph styles > "Numbering N *" is related to indentation level and not intended for > working in tandem with the list style "Numbering N". One can use > paragraph style "Numbering 1" with any of the list styles, because > concerns seem to be completely orthogonal. > > Can you clarify the relationship between paragraph styles "Numbering N > *" and list style "Numbering N"? > > What scenarios are paragraph styles "Numbering N *" and "List N *" intended > for? > > Thank you a lot > -- > Carlos Was this documentation in a Styles chapter of the Writer Guide perhaps? If so, where in this guide was it located? If not, what documentation did you mean? I think the answer you are seeking is found in the Styles and Formating window. Use the F11 key to open it. There are several icons at the top; the one of the left (Paragraph styles) is the one you want. At the bottom of the window is a drop down list with Automatic selected by Default (unless you have changed it). Select "All Styles". In that list you will find the Numbering N * paragraph styles. Right click anyone of them and select Modify from the context menu (it is a pop up window.) Click the "Outline & Numbering" tab. When you want to add a numbering or bullet style to your paragraph style, you select it here. The paragraph style dictates the properties of the paragraph. The numbering (or list [bullet]) style dictates the numbering that appears at the beginning of each paragraph. --Dan -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles for list styles
--- On Thu, 10/5/12, Gary Schnabl wrote: From: Gary Schnabl Subject: Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles for list styles To: documentat...@global.libreoffice.org Date: Thursday, 10 May, 2012, 9:28 These styles make up the set of paragraph styles for ordered and unordered lists that date way back to version 1.x, but which never were really explained much outside of the OOo/LO user guides. Also, the factory-default formatting for these styles is not in general agreement throughout the Ns (worse in OOo than in LO). They appear to be much unlike the human appendix--somewhat useless in its original form but which can be made useful. I assume that the N was originally meant to refer to the level of nesting of lists, which itself would almost always use indentation. Because their factory-default formatting is somewhat inconsistent, their parameters should be reformatted by the users (or template designers) in order to be made to work better . Gary On 5/10/2012 4:01 AM, Tom Davies wrote: > Hi :) > I have cc'd your question to the documentation team for them to consider for > the next set of guides. > > Which documentation? Is it in the Guides that appear on these 2 pages? > http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/documentation/ > http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/Publications > (all the guides that appear in the first link are also in the 2nd but the 2nd > has a lot more and includes 3rd party documentation too) > > If you mean the help files that you get when you click on "Help" inside the > program then you might find the guides tend to be a lot more up-to-date and > helpful. > Thanks and regards from > Tom :) > > > > --- On Thu, 10/5/12, Carlos Pita wrote: > > From: Carlos Pita > Subject: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles for list styles > To: users@global.libreoffice.org > Date: Thursday, 10 May, 2012, 3:45 > > Hi all, > > I find this description in the documentation very misleading: > > """ > Each of the list styles predefined in Writer has four associated > paragraph styles. For example, the > Numbering 1 list style is associated with four paragraph styles: > Numbering 1 > Numbering 1 Cont. > Numbering 1 End > Numbering 1 Start > """ > > In what sense list style "Numbering 1" is related to paragraph styles > "Numbering 1 *"? What one can see is that the N in paragraph styles > "Numbering N *" is related to indentation level and not intended for > working in tandem with the list style "Numbering N". One can use > paragraph style "Numbering 1" with any of the list styles, because > concerns seem to be completely orthogonal. > > Can you clarify the relationship between paragraph styles "Numbering N > *" and list style "Numbering N"? > > What scenarios are paragraph styles "Numbering N *" and "List N *" intended > for? > > Thank you a lot > -- > Carlos > -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to documentation+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles for list styles
Hi :) I have cc'd your question to the documentation team for them to consider for the next set of guides. Which documentation? Is it in the Guides that appear on these 2 pages? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/documentation/ http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/Publications (all the guides that appear in the first link are also in the 2nd but the 2nd has a lot more and includes 3rd party documentation too) If you mean the help files that you get when you click on "Help" inside the program then you might find the guides tend to be a lot more up-to-date and helpful. Thanks and regards from Tom :) --- On Thu, 10/5/12, Carlos Pita wrote: From: Carlos Pita Subject: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles for list styles To: users@global.libreoffice.org Date: Thursday, 10 May, 2012, 3:45 Hi all, I find this description in the documentation very misleading: """ Each of the list styles predefined in Writer has four associated paragraph styles. For example, the Numbering 1 list style is associated with four paragraph styles: Numbering 1 Numbering 1 Cont. Numbering 1 End Numbering 1 Start """ In what sense list style "Numbering 1" is related to paragraph styles "Numbering 1 *"? What one can see is that the N in paragraph styles "Numbering N *" is related to indentation level and not intended for working in tandem with the list style "Numbering N". One can use paragraph style "Numbering 1" with any of the list styles, because concerns seem to be completely orthogonal. Can you clarify the relationship between paragraph styles "Numbering N *" and list style "Numbering N"? What scenarios are paragraph styles "Numbering N *" and "List N *" intended for? Thank you a lot -- Carlos -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph Styles Not Updating
On Fri, Nov 4, 2011 at 07:17, Tom Davies wrote: > Hi :) > I gather this has been fixed by just re-writing the document? I have just > had to do something similar for a Newsletter made for a particular version > of Word that didn't work at all well in our current version or in > LibreOffice. Even in the right version of Word there was only 1 person > that could get it to work properly. It was painful to re-create it but now > i have a great template that is easy for anyone to use :) > > So, has the problem been fixed now? > Regards from > Tom :) > > > I'd say we could call it "worked around" rather than "solved". But I was busy with other tasks yesterday and did not get to work on the document at all. Will try to do so today. :-) Don -- D.C. Parris, FMP, LEED AP O+M, ESL Certificate Minister, Security/FM Coordinator, Free Software Advocate https://www.xing.com/profile/Don_Parris | http://www.linkedin.com/in/dcparris GPG Key ID: F5E179BE -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph Styles Not Updating
Hi :) I gather this has been fixed by just re-writing the document? I have just had to do something similar for a Newsletter made for a particular version of Word that didn't work at all well in our current version or in LibreOffice. Even in the right version of Word there was only 1 person that could get it to work properly. It was painful to re-create it but now i have a great template that is easy for anyone to use :) So, has the problem been fixed now? Regards from Tom :) --- On Fri, 4/11/11, Don Parris wrote: > From: Don Parris > Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph Styles Not Updating > To: users@global.libreoffice.org > Date: Friday, 4 November, 2011, 0:53 > On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 04:09, Cor > Nouws > wrote: > > > Hi Don, > > > > Don Parris wrote (01-11-11 02:19) > > > > > > I am having to update a couple documents > (contact directories) I created > >> under OOo some years ago. I had to save the > documents in MS Word format > >> (*.doc), but used paragraph styles to maintain > uniformity of style and > >> ease > >> of maintenance. I wanted to change the color > for a particular heading > >> style, and it should have changed the color for > each of the headings of > >> that style. Unfortunately, modifying the > paragraph style did not change > >> even the particular paragraph the cursor was on, > let alone the other > >> headings of the same style. > >> > > > > Does not sound good - in my experience this > information should be kept. > > - Is there any change that there is a mixture of > styles and direct > > formatting? > > (Select a paragraph and choose Formatting>Default > formatting to check) > > > > - Did you also test with a new document in your > configuration? > > > > I have not, as of yet, but will do so. > > > > > > - Any change that you might be able to send a > (stripped from conf. info) > > version of the problematic document to me (private > mail) > > > Effectively, the entire document is sensitive, by its > nature. Making the > necessary changes would be quite a bit of work, even if I > use search and > replace. > > > > > > > I right-clicked on the paragraph style in the > Styles list box, then chose > >> the "modify" option. I then chose the font > effects tab, and changed the > >> color. I clicked "Apply" and "Ok". > Nothing happened. > >> > > > > Should do it, as said. > > > > > > I also made sure the "automatically update" > option was checked. > >> > > > > Not needed. > > > > > > > -- > D.C. Parris, FMP, LEED AP O+M, ESL Certificate > Minister, Security/FM Coordinator, Free Software Advocate > https://www.xing.com/profile/Don_Parris | > http://www.linkedin.com/in/dcparris > GPG Key ID: F5E179BE > > -- > For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org > Problems? > http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ > Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette > List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ > All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived > and cannot be deleted > > -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph Styles Not Updating
On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 04:09, Cor Nouws wrote: > Hi Don, > > Don Parris wrote (01-11-11 02:19) > > > I am having to update a couple documents (contact directories) I created >> under OOo some years ago. I had to save the documents in MS Word format >> (*.doc), but used paragraph styles to maintain uniformity of style and >> ease >> of maintenance. I wanted to change the color for a particular heading >> style, and it should have changed the color for each of the headings of >> that style. Unfortunately, modifying the paragraph style did not change >> even the particular paragraph the cursor was on, let alone the other >> headings of the same style. >> > > Does not sound good - in my experience this information should be kept. > - Is there any change that there is a mixture of styles and direct > formatting? > (Select a paragraph and choose Formatting>Default formatting to check) > > - Did you also test with a new document in your configuration? > I have not, as of yet, but will do so. > > - Any change that you might be able to send a (stripped from conf. info) > version of the problematic document to me (private mail) Effectively, the entire document is sensitive, by its nature. Making the necessary changes would be quite a bit of work, even if I use search and replace. > > > I right-clicked on the paragraph style in the Styles list box, then chose >> the "modify" option. I then chose the font effects tab, and changed the >> color. I clicked "Apply" and "Ok". Nothing happened. >> > > Should do it, as said. > > > I also made sure the "automatically update" option was checked. >> > > Not needed. > -- D.C. Parris, FMP, LEED AP O+M, ESL Certificate Minister, Security/FM Coordinator, Free Software Advocate https://www.xing.com/profile/Don_Parris | http://www.linkedin.com/in/dcparris GPG Key ID: F5E179BE -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph Styles Not Updating
Hi Don, Don Parris wrote (01-11-11 02:19) I am having to update a couple documents (contact directories) I created under OOo some years ago. I had to save the documents in MS Word format (*.doc), but used paragraph styles to maintain uniformity of style and ease of maintenance. I wanted to change the color for a particular heading style, and it should have changed the color for each of the headings of that style. Unfortunately, modifying the paragraph style did not change even the particular paragraph the cursor was on, let alone the other headings of the same style. Does not sound good - in my experience this information should be kept. - Is there any change that there is a mixture of styles and direct formatting? (Select a paragraph and choose Formatting>Default formatting to check) - Did you also test with a new document in your configuration? - Any change that you might be able to send a (stripped from conf. info) version of the problematic document to me (private mail) I right-clicked on the paragraph style in the Styles list box, then chose the "modify" option. I then chose the font effects tab, and changed the color. I clicked "Apply" and "Ok". Nothing happened. Should do it, as said. I also made sure the "automatically update" option was checked. Not needed. I saved the document as an ODT document and then tried the process again. Again, nothing happened. The document was originally created in OOo (can't say what version, just that I used a version recent enough to use ODF). Any ideas what I can do, apart from changing each heading individually, which styles are supposed to help me avoid? I am using LO 3.4.3 (Portable Apps). Regards, -- - Cor - http://nl.libreoffice.org -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph Styles Not Updating
On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 12:43, Tom Davies wrote: > Hi :) > I'm not sure what has gone wrong. Sometimes things go a little strange > when saved as MS formats. I guess documentation is unhelpful? > http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/Publications > Regards from > Tom :) > > > I haven't seen anything thus far, reading through the styles section. My best guess is that I should have kept an original copy in ODF format to begin with. Grrr... Fortunately, the documents I'm working with are fairly short. Just a minor hassle. Thanks though! Don -- D.C. Parris, FMP, LEED AP O+M, ESL Certificate Minister, Security/FM Coordinator, Free Software Advocate https://www.xing.com/profile/Don_Parris | http://www.linkedin.com/in/dcparris GPG Key ID: F5E179BE -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph Styles Not Updating
Hi :) I'm not sure what has gone wrong. Sometimes things go a little strange when saved as MS formats. I guess documentation is unhelpful? http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/Publications Regards from Tom :) --- On Tue, 1/11/11, Don Parris wrote: > From: Don Parris > Subject: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph Styles Not Updating > To: users@global.libreoffice.org > Date: Tuesday, 1 November, 2011, 1:19 > Hi all, > > I am having to update a couple documents (contact > directories) I created > under OOo some years ago. I had to save the documents > in MS Word format > (*.doc), but used paragraph styles to maintain uniformity > of style and ease > of maintenance. I wanted to change the color for a > particular heading > style, and it should have changed the color for each of the > headings of > that style. Unfortunately, modifying the paragraph > style did not change > even the particular paragraph the cursor was on, let alone > the other > headings of the same style. > > I right-clicked on the paragraph style in the Styles list > box, then chose > the "modify" option. I then chose the font effects > tab, and changed the > color. I clicked "Apply" and "Ok". Nothing > happened. I also made sure > the "automatically update" option was checked. > > I saved the document as an ODT document and then tried the > process again. > Again, nothing happened. The document was originally > created in OOo (can't > say what version, just that I used a version recent enough > to use ODF). > Any ideas what I can do, apart from changing each heading > individually, > which styles are supposed to help me avoid? > > I am using LO 3.4.3 (Portable Apps). > > Thanks! > Don > -- > D.C. Parris, FMP, LEED AP O+M, ESL Certificate > Minister, Security/FM Coordinator, Free Software Advocate > https://www.xing.com/profile/Don_Parris | > http://www.linkedin.com/in/dcparris > GPG Key ID: F5E179BE > > -- > For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org > Problems? > http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ > Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette > List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ > All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived > and cannot be deleted > > -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
