Re: Brakes 6 piston to 4 piston Residual Pressure Valves
Hey TC. This little story follows the thread about the strange sounds and other manifestations that can happen...you mentioned in your post about not tightening down a spark plug Well I chased a very strange problem for almost 2 full weeks! What happen is this: I installed a new set of plugs and did a general tune up of my Max...everything was all right for around 3 weeks, then, all of a sudden while I was out one day I started losing power and I heard a very strange sound from the engine, sort of a high pitched whistle, or something like an air hose with a hole in it!. Not a little bit but a whole lot! The first thing I checked was the "New" plugs to see if they were fouled...they were all just fine! I re-installed the plugs and tried again. At low RPM and speed the bike ran just fine! As soon as I would twist the wick there was that sound again and a real noticeable loss of power! I checked the fuel pump...it was OK. I checked the needles...They were OK I checked the diaphragms for pin holes or cracks...They were OK. I checked the exhaust for leaksNo leaks I drained the gas tank and put in fresh gasnot the problem I even did a compression test...guess what, that was not the problem. I even re- balanced the carbs...No change! I was going crazy I finally decided to check the plugs again! As I was putting the plugs back in I was starting them by hand when I got to plug # 3 some thing happened that I had never seen before! As I was screwing plug #3 in it did not feel right! Upon closer inspection I found that the entire plug body was actually a little lose. That is the ceramic part of the plug! I could actually spin the plug body around in the base! What this was doing was (as you would guess) letting the pressure in the cylinder blow through the plug! Hence the strange sounds and loss of power! At low rpm it seems that it was ok, put when I twisted the wickpoof the plug acted like a vent or a pressure release valve! A new #3 plug and away went the sound and the power was restored! Now this is one for the books! Later/Steve Jasse AKA the Wizard of DILLIGAF http://www.dilligaf.com http://www.bikerbabe.com Webmaster Iron Horse Saloon http://www.ironhorse-saloon.com Webmaster Boot Hill Saloon http://www.boothillsaloon.com Webmaster David Allan Coe http://www.officialdavidallancoe.com VMOA #708 . To unsubscribe go to http://www.sayegh.org/unsubscribe.htm .
Re: Brakes 6 piston to 4 piston
R1 calipers, HH pads, XJR-1300 master cyl=killer brakes. Do you want me to get you a master cylinder? I can assure you you won't send it back. I had the first organised ride with a total of 4 Maxes on Saturday. Two of them are fitting my brake setup right away so I'm ordering the parts for them. If you want to try it I won't charge you anything till you decide to keep it. If you don't want it you pay postage back. You don't have anything to lose. Only doing this 'cause you took the trouble to send me some stuff once. It's worth a try. You guys believe because it's cheaper than a killer Brembo setup or something it can't be effective and reliable, well you non believers are all wrong. Fact is all I did was take the entire setup off the XJR and fit to Max, how can it not work? Furthermore, you can bet your bottom $ that the new FJR-1300 will have exactly the same front brake setup. Sam Blumenstein #795 Eric Harnish wrote: When comparing two calipers the rotors are the same the pumping force of the master cylinder is the same is there a gain if using a greater number of pistons in the caliper ? I'm looking at a set of six piston calipers . I measured the piston area the pad area compared them to my stock four piston calipers . The six piston unit is 4% smaller in the pads 2% smaller in over all piston area . The only gain that I can see is the six piston caliper's pads move about 7% of its pad area further out on the rotor increasing the lever action . Looks like a wash out to me . Any comments ? Eric H . . To unsubscribe go to http://www.sayegh.org/unsubscribe.htm .
Re: Brakes 6 piston to 4 piston
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: R1 calipers, HH pads, XJR-1300 master cyl=killer brakes. Do you want me to get you a master cylinder? I can assure you you won't send it back. Thanks Sam!! I was hoping you'll add your comments... Mario . To unsubscribe go to http://www.sayegh.org/unsubscribe.htm .
Re: Brakes 6 piston to 4 piston
Second part . When I had the pads out of my '99 bike the stock pads were marked as having a HH friction material . Are the EBC's HH pads superior ? Eric H. - Original Message - From: "Eric Harnish" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "V-MAX TECH LIST" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2000 9:25 AM Subject: Brakes 6 piston to 4 piston When comparing two calipers the rotors are the same the pumping force of the master cylinder is the same is there a gain if using a greater number of pistons in the caliper ? I'm looking at a set of six piston calipers . I measured the piston area the pad area compared them to my stock four piston calipers . The six piston unit is 4% smaller in the pads 2% smaller in over all piston area . The only gain that I can see is the six piston caliper's pads move about 7% of its pad area further out on the rotor increasing the lever action . Looks like a wash out to me . Any comments ? Eric H . . To unsubscribe go to http://www.sayegh.org/unsubscribe.htm . . To unsubscribe go to http://www.sayegh.org/unsubscribe.htm .
Re: Brakes 6 piston to 4 piston
Eric, the HHs are up there with the best.. long life, no disk damage, great stopping power, good price... Steve http://unclefesters.com - Original Message - From: Eric Harnish [EMAIL PROTECTED] Second part . When I had the pads out of my '99 bike the stock pads were marked as having a HH friction material . Are the EBC's HH pads superior ? Eric H. - Original Message - From: "Eric Harnish" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "V-MAX TECH LIST" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2000 9:25 AM Subject: Brakes 6 piston to 4 piston . To unsubscribe go to http://www.sayegh.org/unsubscribe.htm .
Re: Brakes 6 piston to 4 piston
I'd have to agree with you, it's a wash, but...it's a psychological motor-head wash that some people, who don't think factory equipment is good enough must do. 11
Re: Brakes 6 piston to 4 piston Residual Pressure Valves
Steve, That does not answer my question . I have no doubt that the EBC's are a good replacement pad but however HH is a friction rating not a brand name . What I want to know is has someone actually tested the performance of the EBC HH pads compared to the stock Sumitomo Toyo HH pads . I'm curious to know if the years before '99 came with HH pads in them . I'm looking very hard at what can be done to truly upgrade the late model brake system . So far I can't find anything besides a complete system replacement like the Brembo set up . I've measured the R1 and the six piston Tokico and can't see a gain if any in either one except in looks .From what I understand you need to replace the master cyl. to get good performance . Then you have mismatched controls on the bar . The best mods for the money that I see are the steel lines, EBC or Galfer pads, springs in the forks . Beyond this it is a grand to gain what ? By the way a while back there was a discussion on brakes the topic came up about Residual Pressure valves . Well during my research on brakes I came accross an article addressing this issue . It said that a Residual Pressure valve is only needed when the master cylinder is mounted level or lower than the calipers or wheel cylinders . Just thought you all would like to know :) Eric H. - Original Message - From: "Steve Morris, SMS" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "V-MAX TECH LIST" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2000 9:52 AM Subject: Re: Brakes 6 piston to 4 piston Eric, the HHs are up there with the best.. long life, no disk damage, great stopping power, good price... Steve http://unclefesters.com - Original Message - From: Eric Harnish [EMAIL PROTECTED] Second part . When I had the pads out of my '99 bike the stock pads were marked as having a HH friction material . Are the EBC's HH pads superior ? Eric H. - Original Message - From: "Eric Harnish" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "V-MAX TECH LIST" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2000 9:25 AM Subject: Brakes 6 piston to 4 piston . To unsubscribe go to http://www.sayegh.org/unsubscribe.htm . . To unsubscribe go to http://www.sayegh.org/unsubscribe.htm .
Re: Brakes 6 piston to 4 piston
Eric Harnish wrote: When comparing two calipers the rotors are the same the pumping force of the master cylinder is the same is there a gain if using a greater number of pistons in the caliper ? NOT if you still use the same master cyclinder I'm looking at a set of six piston calipers . I measured the piston area the pad area compared them to my stock four piston calipers . The six piston unit is 4% smaller in the pads 2% smaller in over all piston area . The only gain that I can see is the six piston caliper's pads move about 7% of its pad area further out on the rotor increasing the lever action . Looks like a wash out to me . Any comments ? The master cyclinders on the V-Max were probably designed by Barney Rubble!! All 4 and 6 piston calipers have a specific master cylinder designed to work with them. When I first used the 4 pot Nissins with the stock master, the difference was barely noticeable, but when I used the proper Nissin master cylinder, my eyeballs hit the faceshield on my helmet. The multi-pad calipers require less moving fluid, consecuently, less pressure, to be fully activated. The best master cylinders to use with the 4 and 6 pot calipers, are the Nissin's with the plastic cup on top of it, (I know many of you won't like the look of them) but so far, unless you can get a new unit from a XJR, (like Sam did). Just don't go out there, bending your forks, after you install them, will 'ya?? Mario
Re: Brakes 6 piston to 4 piston
Eric Harnish wrote: Second part . When I had the pads out of my '99 bike the stock pads were marked as having a HH friction material . Those are NOT stock pads Are the EBC's HH pads superior ? Far superior!! . To unsubscribe go to http://www.sayegh.org/unsubscribe.htm .
Re: Brakes 6 piston to 4 piston
Mario, I bought the bike new took it out of the crate myself . The pads in my bike have not been replaced and they are Sumitomo Toyo HH pads . Eric H. - Original Message - From: "Mario C Aguiar" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "V-MAX TECH LIST" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2000 12:56 PM Subject: Re: Brakes 6 piston to 4 piston Eric Harnish wrote: Second part . When I had the pads out of my '99 bike the stock pads were marked as having a HH friction material . Those are NOT stock pads Are the EBC's HH pads superior ? Far superior!! . To unsubscribe go to http://www.sayegh.org/unsubscribe.htm . . To unsubscribe go to http://www.sayegh.org/unsubscribe.htm .
Re: Brakes 6 piston to 4 piston
Eric Harnish wrote: Mario, I bought the bike new took it out of the crate myself . The pads in my bike have not been replaced and they are Sumitomo Toyo HH pads . Eric, As far as I know, EBC was the only manufacturer allowed to use the term "H H" on their pads, (but, of course I may be wrong...) Mario
Re: Brakes
It's very easy. Go to http://caber.com/vmax/ This site has the whole service manual on line. The brakes are at #6.11 in the Chassis section. In terms of your late model brakes compared to the older design shown in the manual, the basic procedure is exactly the same. The only suggestion I have for you is to do one caliper at a time, so if you forget how things go back together you can look at the one you haven't touched yet. You will need to force back the pistons in the calipers so your new pads (thicker) will fit. I always leave one of the used pads in place and use a large screw driver against the old pad to force the pistons back. Take pad out and place it on the other side pistons on the same caliper and force them back as well. Be very careful pushing pistons back as this will back up the brake fluid in the master cylinder. It's a good idea to remove M/C cover and check to see if you have ample space there for the displaced fluid to enter. If not soak up some of the fluid with a clean lint free shop towel or paper towel. Reinstall cover and screw it on properly. If you find the level of the fluid is too low once the new pads are in, top it up when you are done. After fitting pads squeeze gently on the lever (small short pulls) to force pistons out against disc. Many people also rough up the discs with 320-400 wet and dry paper to provide a fresh slightly rough surface for the new pads to bite onto. I suppose you should follow the pad manufactures instructions on that one but doing it can't hurt. With your type of brakes I like the EBC-HH pads, they are significantly better gripping than OEM or Kevlar replacement pads. Sam Blumenstein #795 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have a 1996 Vmax, I wanted to know how hard is it to change the brake pads. I am a new rider, and would like to do my own basic maintenance. Thank you
RE: Brakes
It would be good to flush out your brake fluid with fresh after changing pads. Just go slow, being careful not to spill. Not hard at all and should be done every two years or so. Ronald Fisch V.M.O.A. 7886 mostly stock, [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2000 2:01 AMTo: V-MAX TECH LISTSubject: Brakes I have a 1996 Vmax, I wanted to know how hard is it to change the brake pads. I am a new rider, and would like to do my own basic maintenance. Thank you
Re: Brakes
It is Sam's brother Eric - Original Message - From: "Thomas Powell" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "V-MAX TECH LIST" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2000 1:20 PM Subject: Re: Brakes Eric, what pads is your brother using? Thomas and Carrie Powell 1994 NOS injected Tourmaster V-Max "LAFGAS" [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=957019 - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: V-MAX TECH LIST [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2000 1:16 AM Subject: Re: Brakes Still didn't work Eric. Anyway, back onto the brakes. I got a bit more air out of the master I believe by doing Mario's tapping on the lever. It feels virtually normal now but it's still raining so I won't get out till tommorrow or Saturday (I'm a day in front of you) to try it properly. I also agree that maybe the 6 piston brakes are super strong but my brothers XJR-1300 has R1 calipers, weighs about 70-80lbs. less than a Max and stops extremely well. It's lighter than a V-Max but lots heavier than an R1. Let me know how your 6 piston setup works, will you be fitting them with stock master cylinder? and do the require adapters to fit? Sam Blumenstein #795 Eric Harnish wrote: Address [EMAIL PROTECTED] See if this works Eric . To unsubscribe go to http://www.sayegh.org/unsubscribe.htm . . To unsubscribe go to http://www.sayegh.org/unsubscribe.htm . . To unsubscribe go to http://www.sayegh.org/unsubscribe.htm .
Re: BRAKES...brembos...
these brembos are fantastic...
i bought a set for my '88...
there's a kit to suit a post-93 too...no worries...
serious stopping power...
i sorta wish they wern't gold...
but the performance makez them worth it...
almost worth their weight in... ;)
cheerz...simon... :)
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is this a V-Max upgrade kit
specifically for early or late V-Maxes?
or does
other fabricating need to be done? Mine is a late model ('99). If it
is a
bolt on kit where do you get them?
Thanks Don
Sam Blumenstein
donald smith wrote:
300mm full floaters and gold 4 piston calipers from Brembo. It
comes as
a kit complete with all bolts, brackets, new braided lines. Just
get the
junk off and feel what its like to have serious stopping power.
When you
open the box it looks too pretty to put on, you just want to look
at it!
Don "Old Man" Smith
.
To unsubscribe go to http://www.sayegh.org/unsubscribe.htm
.
=
peace...love...empathy
live life to the max... :)
__
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE.
http://im.yahoo.com/
.
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.
Re: Brakes
Still didn't work Eric. Anyway, back onto the brakes. I got a bit more air out of the master I believe by doing Mario's tapping on the lever. It feels virtually normal now but it's still raining so I won't get out till tommorrow or Saturday (I'm a day in front of you) to try it properly. I also agree that maybe the 6 piston brakes are super strong but my brothers XJR-1300 has R1 calipers, weighs about 70-80lbs. less than a Max and stops extremely well. It's lighter than a V-Max but lots heavier than an R1. Let me know how your 6 piston setup works, will you be fitting them with stock master cylinder? and do the require adapters to fit? Sam Blumenstein #795 Eric Harnish wrote: Address [EMAIL PROTECTED] See if this works Eric . To unsubscribe go to http://www.sayegh.org/unsubscribe.htm .
Re: BRAKES
Is this a V-Max upgrade kit specifically for early or late V-Maxes? or does
other fabricating need to be done? Mine is a late model ('99). If it is a
bolt on kit where do you get them?
Thanks Don
Sam Blumenstein
donald smith wrote:
300mm full floaters and gold 4 piston calipers from Brembo. It comes as
a kit complete with all bolts, brackets, new braided lines. Just get the
junk off and feel what its like to have serious stopping power. When you
open the box it looks too pretty to put on, you just want to look at it!
Don "Old Man" Smith
.
To unsubscribe go to http://www.sayegh.org/unsubscribe.htm
.
Re: Brakes
On the late model forks they require a complete new bracket. On the early model forks it is much simpler. The systems that I have seen used the stock master . You do have to keep a close eye on the fluid level. Eric H. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "V-MAX TECH LIST" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2000 7:16 AM Subject: Re: Brakes Still didn't work Eric. Anyway, back onto the brakes. I got a bit more air out of the master I believe by doing Mario's tapping on the lever. It feels virtually normal now but it's still raining so I won't get out till tommorrow or Saturday (I'm a day in front of you) to try it properly. I also agree that maybe the 6 piston brakes are super strong but my brothers XJR-1300 has R1 calipers, weighs about 70-80lbs. less than a Max and stops extremely well. It's lighter than a V-Max but lots heavier than an R1. Let me know how your 6 piston setup works, will you be fitting them with stock master cylinder? and do the require adapters to fit? Sam Blumenstein #795 Eric Harnish wrote: Address [EMAIL PROTECTED] See if this works Eric . To unsubscribe go to http://www.sayegh.org/unsubscribe.htm . . To unsubscribe go to http://www.sayegh.org/unsubscribe.htm .
Re: Brakes
Eric, what pads is your brother using? Thomas and Carrie Powell 1994 NOS injected Tourmaster V-Max "LAFGAS" [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=957019 - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: V-MAX TECH LIST [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2000 1:16 AM Subject: Re: Brakes Still didn't work Eric. Anyway, back onto the brakes. I got a bit more air out of the master I believe by doing Mario's tapping on the lever. It feels virtually normal now but it's still raining so I won't get out till tommorrow or Saturday (I'm a day in front of you) to try it properly. I also agree that maybe the 6 piston brakes are super strong but my brothers XJR-1300 has R1 calipers, weighs about 70-80lbs. less than a Max and stops extremely well. It's lighter than a V-Max but lots heavier than an R1. Let me know how your 6 piston setup works, will you be fitting them with stock master cylinder? and do the require adapters to fit? Sam Blumenstein #795 Eric Harnish wrote: Address [EMAIL PROTECTED] See if this works Eric . To unsubscribe go to http://www.sayegh.org/unsubscribe.htm . . To unsubscribe go to http://www.sayegh.org/unsubscribe.htm .
Re: Brakes
Eric, I agree with your prognosis in my case. Air or a master that is on the way out. As for the R1 calipers, they are only marginally better than stock late model V-Max items, but they saved a few ounces and look so cute with those blue anodised centres I'm leaving them on. Considering they cost me $160.00 U.S the pair with less than 2000 miles on them I'm happy with the swap. Thanks for all the discussions and some disagreements, that's how we all learn and rationalise out common problems. Sam Blumenstein #795 P.S I still can't get thru to your email address privately, my server bumps it every time. Eric Harnish wrote: Now Sam only changed his lines so he is just having trouble with some air or a bad master has showed up . On a final note I rode a max with the R1 calipers found no difference in braking compared to my late model fine tuned brakes :) . Your Friend Eric H. . . To unsubscribe go to http://www.sayegh.org/unsubscribe.htm .
Re: Brakes
Address [EMAIL PROTECTED] See if this works Eric - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "V-MAX TECH LIST" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2000 7:05 AM Subject: Re: Brakes Eric, I agree with your prognosis in my case. Air or a master that is on the way out. As for the R1 calipers, they are only marginally better than stock late model V-Max items, but they saved a few ounces and look so cute with those blue anodised centres I'm leaving them on. Considering they cost me $160.00 U.S the pair with less than 2000 miles on them I'm happy with the swap. Thanks for all the discussions and some disagreements, that's how we all learn and rationalise out common problems. Sam Blumenstein #795 P.S I still can't get thru to your email address privately, my server bumps it every time. Eric Harnish wrote: Now Sam only changed his lines so he is just having trouble with some air or a bad master has showed up . On a final note I rode a max with the R1 calipers found no difference in braking compared to my late model fine tuned brakes :) . Your Friend Eric H. . . To unsubscribe go to http://www.sayegh.org/unsubscribe.htm . . To unsubscribe go to http://www.sayegh.org/unsubscribe.htm .
Re: Brakes
Sat, Ridgid mounted calipers will not compensate for a caliper that is mounted off set to the rotor . Only floating calipers will compensate for this condition . On a car with ridged mounted calipers if you turn the rotors you must remove exactly the same amount from each side or will give you a low pedal . The guys both changed their calipers to non stock . Even a few thousands will effect braking performance master cyl. action . My stock brakes were off on the right side by .005 . and the rear was .006 . People who ride my bike always comment on the brakes . My brakes are bone stock . I just detailed the system . Now don't get me wrong the coefficient of friction is not increased just the feel and I have immediate brakes at my disposal which instills confidence in the rider . Eric H. - Original Message - From: "Sat Tara S. Khalsa" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "V-MAX TECH LIST" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 23, 2000 10:14 PM Subject: Re: Brakes on 10/23/00 6:27 PM, Eric Harnish at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm going to have you take a look at the calipers . Take a feeler gage set and check the clearence between the pistons and the brake pad backing plates. These clearences must be equall on all four pads . If they are out, shim to equalize . This will cause the master cyl. to travel to far before the pads will fully engage the rotor . I've been there before . Try it let me know . Hope it helps . Eric H. Eric, These clearances should be self-adjusting. The only way there should be appreciable difference is if a piston seal is binding, holding the piston away from the pad. best, Sat Tara . To unsubscribe go to http://www.sayegh.org/unsubscribe.htm . . To unsubscribe go to http://www.sayegh.org/unsubscribe.htm .
Re: Brakes
Eric, I don't want to contribute to a "brake" war but I have to agree with Sat Tara on this one. IMHO, (and we all know what opinions are worth), consider the following: Floating calipers are required for self alignment only when the piston/pistons are mounted on one side of the caliper. Our calipers have pistons on both sides and will auto align, (assuming that in a fully retracted position there is some clearance between the brake shoes and the surfaces of the rotor). When you only have piston/pistons on one side of the caliper then the caliper must be able to move in order to apply pressure equally to both sides of the rotor. Also IMHO ... Thomas has stated that his pistons relax an excessive amount when the lever is released. This is because the "check-valve" operation has been compromised. A master cylinder without a check valve, (on one in the line), can only be used on drum brakes. All disc systems must have some type of check valve mechanism to eliminate excessive clearance between the rotor and the pads, (usually about 3 lbs in an automobile and 1 lb in a bike). Releasing the handle and gaining this much relaxation of the pads indicates that Thomas's check valve is not doing crap and as a result it will take excessive fluid movement to take up the slack and get any braking action when the brakes are re-applied. During normal operation the only thing that will push the pads away from the rotor is rotor run-out .. and when it is excessive you will gain lever travel to close things up before you begin to get any braking action. I have not had one of these master cylinders apart and I can not tell if the check valve is in there or built into the distribution tee that splits the line to each side of the front wheel ... I am sure there must be a brake expert on the list that has had this experience before ... I suspect however that the little "flap" in the bottom of the master cylinder has something to do with this. Anyhow ... just my opinion campbell - Original Message - From: "Eric Harnish" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Brakes Sat, Ridgid mounted calipers will not compensate for a caliper that is mounted off set to the rotor . Only floating calipers will compensate for this condition . On a car with ridged mounted calipers if you turn the rotors you must remove exactly the same amount from each side or will give you a low pedal . The guys both changed their calipers to non stock . Even a few thousands will effect braking performance master cyl. action . My stock brakes were off on the right side by .005 . and the rear was .006 . People who ride my bike always comment on the brakes . My brakes are bone stock . I just detailed the system . Now don't get me wrong the coefficient of friction is not increased just the feel and I have immediate brakes at my disposal which instills confidence in the rider . Eric H. Eric, These clearances should be self-adjusting. The only way there should be appreciable difference is if a piston seal is binding, holding the piston away from the pad. best, Sat Tara . To unsubscribe go to http://www.sayegh.org/unsubscribe.htm .
Re: Brakes
TC No war here . The pistons on a caliper will retract at the same amount if all is well . If the caliper is not centered on the rotor it will cause the master cyl. piston to travel further to obtain braking force . This is something I learned over 20 yrs ago in a situation on a formula car that I had fitted a new brake system to . I have also seen this problem in the shops with techs turning rotors on European autos with ridged mounted calipers . They were use to floating US systems did not pay attention to what they were doing when turning the rotors . They would get good brakes but with a low pedal . A floating system does not care . A ridgid mount system can not adjust for off set . This is not something that I just thought up. It is my personal experience one of the few things that I've learned in the past 30 yrs of turning a wrench for a living :) Your Friend Eric H - Original Message - From: "TC" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "V-MAX TECH LIST" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2000 9:40 AM Subject: Re: Brakes Eric, I don't want to contribute to a "brake" war but I have to agree with Sat Tara on this one. IMHO, (and we all know what opinions are worth), consider the following: Floating calipers are required for self alignment only when the piston/pistons are mounted on one side of the caliper. Our calipers have pistons on both sides and will auto align, (assuming that in a fully retracted position there is some clearance between the brake shoes and the surfaces of the rotor). When you only have piston/pistons on one side of the caliper then the caliper must be able to move in order to apply pressure equally to both sides of the rotor. Also IMHO ... Thomas has stated that his pistons relax an excessive amount when the lever is released. This is because the "check-valve" operation has been compromised. A master cylinder without a check valve, (on one in the line), can only be used on drum brakes. All disc systems must have some type of check valve mechanism to eliminate excessive clearance between the rotor and the pads, (usually about 3 lbs in an automobile and 1 lb in a bike). Releasing the handle and gaining this much relaxation of the pads indicates that Thomas's check valve is not doing crap and as a result it will take excessive fluid movement to take up the slack and get any braking action when the brakes are re-applied. During normal operation the only thing that will push the pads away from the rotor is rotor run-out .. and when it is excessive you will gain lever travel to close things up before you begin to get any braking action. I have not had one of these master cylinders apart and I can not tell if the check valve is in there or built into the distribution tee that splits the line to each side of the front wheel ... I am sure there must be a brake expert on the list that has had this experience before ... I suspect however that the little "flap" in the bottom of the master cylinder has something to do with this. Anyhow ... just my opinion campbell - Original Message - From: "Eric Harnish" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Brakes Sat, Ridgid mounted calipers will not compensate for a caliper that is mounted off set to the rotor . Only floating calipers will compensate for this condition . On a car with ridged mounted calipers if you turn the rotors you must remove exactly the same amount from each side or will give you a low pedal . The guys both changed their calipers to non stock . Even a few thousands will effect braking performance master cyl. action . My stock brakes were off on the right side by .005 . and the rear was .006 . People who ride my bike always comment on the brakes . My brakes are bone stock . I just detailed the system . Now don't get me wrong the coefficient of friction is not increased just the feel and I have immediate brakes at my disposal which instills confidence in the rider . Eric H. Eric, These clearances should be self-adjusting. The only way there should be appreciable difference is if a piston seal is binding, holding the piston away from the pad. best, Sat Tara . To unsubscribe go to http://www.sayegh.org/unsubscribe.htm . . To unsubscribe go to http://www.sayegh.org/unsubscribe.htm .
Re: Brakes
Title: Re: Brakes on 10/23/00 8:39 PM, Mario C. Aguiar at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sat Tara S. Khalsa wrote: Eric, These clearances should be self-adjusting. The only way there should be appreciable difference is if a piston seal is binding, holding the piston away from the pad. Sat Tara, Don't forget we're talking about a set of calipers that have been ADAPTED to work with those rotors. I fully agree with your statement if the calipers were designed for those rotors and fork mountings, but in this case, I think Eric is right, IMHO Dudes, Maybe I'm misunderstanding the problem. The way I understood what Eric was saying was that in situations where there is appreciable piston-to-piston difference in static clearance you should use shims between the piston and the pad to take up the slack. There are a couple of different ways to understand piston-to-piston differences. One is inside to outside, or caliper-to-caliper (inter-caliper) another is difference within pistons in a caliper (intra-caliper). I took Eric to be talking about intra-caliper differences. I still think that for intra-caliper differences, unless the caliper is cocked out of alighnment with the disk, the only way you'll get a problem is if the piston isn't doing its job correctly. If the problem is inter-caliper difference it seems to me that the shims should be relocating the caliper, not adjusting piston-to-pad distance. Am I missing something? best, Sat Tara
Re: Brakes
Re: BrakesSat Tara, No .. I don't think you are missing anything. Thomas said that when he released the lever he gained measurable daylight/clearance instead of just seeing them relax somewhat. He also noted that with the stock setup he did not get this, (clearance), only noticed them relaxing. He is right .. he has already stated what the problem is. This excessive clearance opening up when the bike is sitting still indicates that no pressure is being retained in the brake lines, (usually the function of a check valve device ... but you must have something to preform this task .. otherwise there is no reason why the pistons won't continue to open up even further with vibration etc .. and require ever greater piston travel to re-apply the brakes etc). I think that if Thomas put his stock calipers back on at this point they would behave the same way. campbell - Original Message - From: Sat Tara S. Khalsa To: V-MAX TECH LIST Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2000 7:28 AM Subject: Re: Brakes snip Am I missing something? best, Sat Tara . To unsubscribe go to http://www.sayegh.org/unsubscribe.htm .
Re: Brakes
Title: Re: Brakes The shiming is done to the caliper not the pads . Look at the piston travel and see if they are all going in and out the same amount . If not correct it first . Then measure using a feeler gage set between the piston pad backing plate . If they are not equall shim the caliper or remove some material from the caliper mounting boss to get proper alingment . When you are doing the measurements and lets say there is a .010 difference . Place a .010 shim or feeler gage between the pistons and the pad that is offand pull the brake lever . You will see or feel the difference . Another problem with calipers that are not centered is one pad will drag causing power loss and uneven pad wear . Eric H. - Original Message - From: Sat Tara S. Khalsa To: V-MAX TECH LIST Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2000 10:28 AM Subject: Re: Brakes on 10/23/00 8:39 PM, Mario C. Aguiar at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: "Sat Tara S. Khalsa" wrote: Eric, These clearances should be self-adjusting. The only way there should be appreciable difference is if a piston seal is binding, holding the piston away from the pad.Sat Tara, Don't forget we're talking about a set of calipers that have been ADAPTED to work with those rotors. I fully agree with your statement if the calipers were designed for those rotors and fork mountings, but in this case, I think Eric is right, IMHO Dudes,Maybe I'm misunderstanding the problem. The way I understood what Eric was saying was that in situations where there is appreciable piston-to-piston difference in static clearance you should use shims between the piston and the pad to take up the slack. There are a couple of different ways to understand piston-to-piston differences. One is inside to outside, or caliper-to-caliper (inter-caliper) another is difference within pistons in a caliper (intra-caliper). I took Eric to be talking about intra-caliper differences. I still think that for intra-caliper differences, unless the caliper is cocked out of alighnment with the disk, the only way you'll get a problem is if the piston isn't doing its job correctly. If the problem is inter-caliper difference it seems to me that the shims should be relocating the caliper, not adjusting piston-to-pad distance.Am I missing something?best,Sat Tara
Re: Brakes
May have to try that. I never looked this hard at the stockers either so I am not sure. Maybe a function of piston drag. === Thomas and Carrie Powell 1994 NOS injected Tourmaster V-Max "LAFGAS" [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=957019 == - Original Message - From: TC [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: V-MAX TECH LIST [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2000 4:42 AM Subject: Re: Brakes Re: BrakesSat Tara, No .. I don't think you are missing anything. Thomas said that when he released the lever he gained measurable daylight/clearance instead of just seeing them relax somewhat. He also noted that with the stock setup he did not get this, (clearance), only noticed them relaxing. He is right .. he has already stated what the problem is. This excessive clearance opening up when the bike is sitting still indicates that no pressure is being retained in the brake lines, (usually the function of a check valve device ... but you must have something to preform this task .. otherwise there is no reason why the pistons won't continue to open up even further with vibration etc .. and require ever greater piston travel to re-apply the brakes etc). I think that if Thomas put his stock calipers back on at this point they would behave the same way. campbell - Original Message - From: Sat Tara S. Khalsa To: V-MAX TECH LIST Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2000 7:28 AM Subject: Re: Brakes snip Am I missing something? best, Sat Tara . To unsubscribe go to http://www.sayegh.org/unsubscribe.htm . . To unsubscribe go to http://www.sayegh.org/unsubscribe.htm .
Re: Brakes
I'm with TC on this one. There are four pistons (two sets of opossed pistons) on our original calipers, just the same as the R 1 ones and are working on a fixed housing. The rotor or disc is also fixed. As you pump fluid into the four pistons, the first one to move will be the one with the least resistance then one after the other they will search for the rotor surface and then the braking will take place ( that is only during the first pumping while you are bleeding the circuit). This means that the pistons as long as the rotor is not totally out of center, which is not the case for the standard or the R1 calipers on our Max, the pistons will center themselfs out against the rotor (self centering device). If the disc or rotor is slightly off centered the pistons will make up for that and even if the left set of pistons are out more than the right, this makes no difference on the braking performance. A different thing would be if for some reason the alignment between the piston travel and the discs were not at 90º or square. Once the are in contact with the disc they will stay there, but exerting no force whatsoever till you use the brake. When you don't have equal oposing pistons then you need the housing (caliper) to float and find its proper position related to the disc or rotor. Regards, Charles ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) - Original Message - From: Eric Harnish [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: V-MAX TECH LIST [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2000 4:08 PM Subject: Re: Brakes TC No war here . The pistons on a caliper will retract at the same amount if all is well . If the caliper is not centered on the rotor it will cause the master cyl piston to travel further to obtain braking force . This is something I learned over 20 yrs ago in a situation on a formula car that I had fitted a new brake system to . I have also seen this problem in the shops with techs turning rotors on European autos with ridged mounted calipers . They were use to floating US systems did not pay attention to what they were doing when turning the rotors . They would get good brakes but with a low pedal . A floating system does not care . A ridgid mount system can not adjust for off set . This is not something that I just thought up. It is my personal experience one of the few things that I've learned in the past 30 yrs of turning a wrench for a living :) Your Friend Eric H - Original Message - From: "TC" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "V-MAX TECH LIST" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2000 9:40 AM Subject: Re: Brakes Eric, I don't want to contribute to a "brake" war but I have to agree with Sat Tara on this one. IMHO, (and we all know what opinions are worth), consider the following: Floating calipers are required for self alignment only when the piston/pistons are mounted on one side of the caliper. Our calipers have pistons on both sides and will auto align, (assuming that in a fully retracted position there is some clearance between the brake shoes and the surfaces of the rotor). When you only have piston/pistons on one side of the caliper then the caliper must be able to move in order to apply pressure equally to both sides of the rotor. Also IMHO ... Thomas has stated that his pistons relax an excessive amount when the lever is released. This is because the "check-valve" operation has been compromised. A master cylinder without a check valve, (on one in the line), can only be used on drum brakes. All disc systems must have some type of check valve mechanism to eliminate excessive clearance between the rotor and the pads, (usually about 3 lbs in an automobile and 1 lb in a bike). Releasing the handle and gaining this much relaxation of the pads indicates that Thomas's check valve is not doing crap and as a result it will take excessive fluid movement to take up the slack and get any braking action when the brakes are re-applied. During normal operation the only thing that will push the pads away from the rotor is rotor run-out .. and when it is excessive you will gain lever travel to close things up before you begin to get any braking action. I have not had one of these master cylinders apart and I can not tell if the check valve is in there or built into the distribution tee that splits the line to each side of the front wheel ... I am sure there must be a brake expert on the list that has had this experience before ... I suspect however that the little "flap" in the bottom of the master cylinder has something to do with this. Anyhow ... just my opinion campbell - Original Message - From: "Eric Harnish" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Brakes Sat, Ridgid mounted calipers will not compensate for a caliper that is mounted off set to the rotor . Only floating calipers will compensate for this condit
Re: Brakes
Title: Re: Brakes on 10/24/00 8:40 AM, Eric Harnish at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The shiming is done to the caliper not the pads . Whew. Now I feel better. best, Sat Tara
Re: Brakes
Charles , I guess that you have very limited experience on high performance ridgid mounted caliper brake systems. The calipers are almost always shimed for center on the rotor . It is like anything else . Sometimes we truly learn how to get the most from the systems . Most go through life ignorant of the possibilities . On some of the exotic cars you better not mix up the calipers because they are machined for each spindle assy. for center on the rotor . A off center caliper will not effect braking from a standpoint of friction but will effect the travel of the master cyl. in regards to pad engagment . It just makes a nicer system to opperate instills confidence when the brakes are right there . Some people may not want this type of controll because they are use to slop in their brakes . With the Vmax I've seen a lot of differences in manufacturing tolerences . Look at the comments on the Superbrace . Some drop on others have to grind to fit . The braces are the same . I've measured a few here locally . Mario Thomas both changed their calipers lines at the same time . Assuming that the systems are air free good masters then the only thing left is that the calipers are off set causing a long lever pull . Now Sam only changed his lines so he is just having trouble with some air or a bad master has showed up . With Thomas I know that he is asking for everything his Max can give him . The guy is pushing 190+ hp on the juice . Most people only ride with in 75% of this bikes potential that is ok. I was just sharing with him Mario where a problem could be or a way to fine tune their brakes . On a final note I rode a max with the R1 calipers found no difference in braking compared to my late model fine tuned brakes :) . Your Friend Eric H. . - Original Message - From: "wforest@arrakis" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "V-MAX TECH LIST" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2000 4:03 PM Subject: Re: Brakes I'm with TC on this one. There are four pistons (two sets of opossed pistons) on our original calipers, just the same as the R 1 ones and are working on a fixed housing. The rotor or disc is also fixed. As you pump fluid into the four pistons, the first one to move will be the one with the least resistance then one after the other they will search for the rotor surface and then the braking will take place ( that is only during the first pumping while you are bleeding the circuit). This means that the pistons as long as the rotor is not totally out of center, which is not the case for the standard or the R1 calipers on our Max, the pistons will center themselfs out against the rotor (self centering device). If the disc or rotor is slightly off centered the pistons will make up for that and even if the left set of pistons are out more than the right, this makes no difference on the braking performance. A different thing would be if for some reason the alignment between the piston travel and the discs were not at 90º or square. Once the are in contact with the disc they will stay there, but exerting no force whatsoever till you use the brake. When you don't have equal oposing pistons then you need the housing (caliper) to float and find its proper position related to the disc or rotor. Regards, Charles ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) . To unsubscribe go to http://www.sayegh.org/unsubscribe.htm .
Re: BRAKES
300mm full floaters and gold 4 piston calipers from Brembo. It comes as a kit complete with all bolts, brackets, new braided lines. Just get the junk off and feel what its like to have serious stopping power. When you open the box it looks too pretty to put on, you just want to look at it! Don "Old Man" Smith . To unsubscribe go to http://www.sayegh.org/unsubscribe.htm .
Re: BRAKES
Steve Hall wrote: Here is one for the scientist... With scientific facts! What is the best aftermarket brake combo. for an early V-Max? Suggestions please. Exspecially, from John and Don!! Keep up the search for more V-Max power If I had to choose aftermarket, I will go with Brembo or Harrison, if I have to choose from other bike equipment (as I did) I choose Nissin 4 piston calipers and Braking USA rotors (aftermarket). But then again, I don't know nothing, you better ask John or Don.. Mario . To unsubscribe go to http://www.sayegh.org/unsubscribe.htm .
Re: BRAKES
Retail, 1,200.00. I got mine thru a friend at 50.00 over his cost. Ended up around 1,000.00. Some will grip about the cost, don't! Your getting what you pay for. Don "Old Man" Smith . To unsubscribe go to http://www.sayegh.org/unsubscribe.htm .
Re: BRAKES
INS, open the door. Don "Old Man" Smith . To unsubscribe go to http://www.sayegh.org/unsubscribe.htm .
Re: BRAKES
Do the 93 up brakes work much better? than stock. . To unsubscribe go to http://www.sayegh.org/unsubscribe.htm .
Re: BRAKES
Stock = 92 and back! - Original Message - From: "BRADFORD" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "V-MAX TECH LIST" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 23, 2000 7:53 PM Subject: Re: BRAKES Do the 93 up brakes work much better? than stock. . To unsubscribe go to http://www.sayegh.org/unsubscribe.htm . . To unsubscribe go to http://www.sayegh.org/unsubscribe.htm .
Re: BRAKES
Bradford, They work better that stock brakes on 85-92 models but I think you will need an adapter. The best adapter is a fork from a 93 up bike. I may have gone completely brain dead in the last two months and will be corrected if I am in error but I am pretty sure you will not be able to interchange the early and late front calipers without adapters, (without regard to the rotor size etc). campbell - Original Message - From: "BRADFORD" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "V-MAX TECH LIST" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 23, 2000 5:53 PM Subject: Re: BRAKES Do the 93 up brakes work much better? than stock. . To unsubscribe go to http://www.sayegh.org/unsubscribe.htm . . To unsubscribe go to http://www.sayegh.org/unsubscribe.htm .
Re: BRAKES
93 and later are better that the 85-92, but they're nowhere near the Brembos. If you bought the rotors alone their 500.00 a set. Figure the liens are 100.00. Then you have to pay someone to make the brackets. When you add it up, its not as bad as it seems. Your getting a quality package ready to bolt up. Don "Old Man" Smith . To unsubscribe go to http://www.sayegh.org/unsubscribe.htm .
Re: BRAKES
I thought about this and I believe the tubes are a different size.41mm to 92 43 after. So I will need the complete front end - Original Message - From: "TC" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "V-MAX TECH LIST" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 23, 2000 7:59 PM Subject: Re: BRAKES Bradford, They work better that stock brakes on 85-92 models but I think you will need an adapter. The best adapter is a fork from a 93 up bike. I may have gone completely brain dead in the last two months and will be corrected if I am in error but I am pretty sure you will not be able to interchange the early and late front calipers without adapters, (without regard to the rotor size etc). campbell - Original Message - From: "BRADFORD" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "V-MAX TECH LIST" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 23, 2000 5:53 PM Subject: Re: BRAKES Do the 93 up brakes work much better? than stock. . To unsubscribe go to http://www.sayegh.org/unsubscribe.htm . . To unsubscribe go to http://www.sayegh.org/unsubscribe.htm . . To unsubscribe go to http://www.sayegh.org/unsubscribe.htm .
Re: BRAKES
Bradford, Yes .. I know .. sorry .. that was what I was implying .. change the front end .. There seem to be a lot of them laying around these days. campbell - #95 - Original Message - From: "BRADFORD" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: BRAKES I thought about this and I believe the tubes are a different size.41mm to 92 43 after. So I will need the complete front end - Original Message - From: "TC" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: BRAKES Bradford, They work better that stock brakes on 85-92 models but I think you will need an adapter. The best adapter is a fork from a 93 up bike. snip . To unsubscribe go to http://www.sayegh.org/unsubscribe.htm .
Re: Brakes
If these calipers have larger pistons you may need the correct master cyl. - Original . To unsubscribe go to http://www.sayegh.org/unsubscribe.htm .
Re: Brakes
"Sat Tara S. Khalsa" wrote: Eric, These clearances should be self-adjusting. The only way there should be appreciable difference is if a piston seal is binding, holding the piston away from the pad. Sat Tara, Don't forget we're talking about a set of calipers that have been ADAPTED to work with those rotors. I fully agree with your statement if the calipers were designed for those rotors and fork mountings, but in this case, I think Eric is right, IMHO Mario
Re: Brakes
I checked them and all are the same. I went through the calipers before hand since I use DOT 5 and cleaned them all up and re lubed. They are off a 2000 R-1 and were in excellent shape anyway. === Thomas and Carrie Powell 1994 NOS injected Tourmaster V-Max "LAFGAS" [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=957019 == - Original Message - From: Sat Tara S. Khalsa [EMAIL PROTECTED] Eric, These clearances should be self-adjusting. The only way there should be appreciable difference is if a piston seal is binding, holding the piston away from the pad. best, Sat Tara . To unsubscribe go to http://www.sayegh.org/unsubscribe.htm . . To unsubscribe go to http://www.sayegh.org/unsubscribe.htm .
Re: brakes
R1 brake system should bolt right on your bike aloha Tony p . To unsubscribe go to http://www.sayegh.org/unsubscribe.htm .
Re: brakes
In a message dated 04/01/2000 1:49:43 AM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I remember awhile back when we all went through "which brake pads I use and why" but can not find it in the archives, it may have been before Paul started it. Since I am ready now would you all mind going over it again? Thanks, Thomas and Carrie Powell 1994 V-Max "LAFGAS" VMOA #741 [EMAIL PROTECTED] I use EBC green #rfa160 for the front and the black organic EBC for the back. I get very good feel from them and little fade. Tim VMOA #1036 . To unsubscribe go to http://www.sayegh.org/unsubscribe.htm .
Re: brakes
Thomas, I recently installed new front and rear pads. I used EBC FA-160 HH pads on the front and EBC FA-88 Kevlar on the rear. This was based on advice from several VMOA members in the last 6 months. The HH fronts are sintered material but don't increase disc wear. They are extremely effective and powerful once fully run in (EBC says 250 miles for total run in). Two finger lever application is all you need with these pads. I stayed with stock kevlar replacements for the rear because my riding style tends to use the backs more than many riders so I didn't want to have the over effectiveness of a HH pad on the rear as I believe it would be too easy to lock up in an emergency situation. My bike is a '99 so I believe the part #'s listed would apply to your '94 also. Brakes are a bit like tyres, everyone has their favourites, but you definately can't go wrong with these EBC's. Sam Blumenstein Thomas Powell wrote: I remember awhile back when we all went through "which brake pads I use and why" but can not find it in the archives, it may have been before Paul started it. Since I am ready now would you all mind going over it again?Thanks,Thomas and Carrie Powell 1994 V-Max "LAFGAS" VMOA #741 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
