[VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Agazzari was working in Rome and Siena, and probably the chitarra spagnuola was more widely known there around 1600. But Agazzari's 'Del sonare sopra il basso' is really about figured bass and counterpoint, and from how he describes the use of the 'ornamental' instruments it appears that the chordal style of the guitar is not within sight. I doubt if Agazzari would have considered the alfabeto of the guitar as a 'foundation', while the bass is not even performed on the guitar. I think you are interpreting what he says in too narrow a way. Amongst the second group of instruments he has included the Lirone, Cetera and the Pandora. These are all instruments which are capable of filling in the harmony to some extent. There is no reason to suppose that they played nothing but a single lin - what would the point be - and the same is true of the chitarrina. It could be strumming away in there! Agazzari (in Strunk) says: 'Like ornaments are those which, in a playful and _contrapuntal_ fashion, make the harmony more agreeable and sonorous.' The instruments with 'imperfect harmony [of the parts] such as the cetera, lirone, chitarrina, etc.' could indeed have played more than one voice at a time, although single line should also be considered possible. But I assume that Agazzari would have expected that also this was done 'in a contrapuntal fashion.' And yes, on the cetera and chitarrina that could possibly mean strumming. It seems unlikely however that a chordal style, continuously including all courses of the instrument, was intended Lex To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
- Original Message -
From: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl
To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2011 8:51 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari guitar
[was Re: Capona?]}
Agazzari (in Strunk) says: 'Like ornaments are those which, in a playful
and _contrapuntal_ fashion, make the harmony more agreeable and sonorous.'
The instruments with 'imperfect harmony [of the parts] such as the cetera,
lirone, chitarrina, etc.' could indeed have played more than one voice at
a time, although single line should also be considered possible. But I
assume that Agazzari would have expected that also this was done 'in a
contrapuntal fashion.' And yes, on the cetera and chitarrina that could
possibly mean strumming. It seems unlikely however that a chordal style,
continuously including all courses of the instrument, was intended
I have no problem with that. I just wouldn't rule out the possibility that
the chitarrina sometimes added simple chords to the melodic line - in the
same way that the violin occasionally indulges in some double stopping - and
these could have been arpeggiated in the way that Cerreto suggests using all
four fingers of the right hand.
Monica .
To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Thank you - you are either incorrect, mistaken or have misread what I
wrote
MH
--- On Mon, 12/12/11, R. Mattes r...@mh-freiburg.de wrote:
From: R. Mattes r...@mh-freiburg.de
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari
guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk, Vihuelalist
vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu, Eloy Cruz eloyc...@gmail.com
Date: Monday, 12 December, 2011, 15:31
On Mon, 12 Dec 2011 14:49:05 + (GMT), Martyn Hodgson wrote
Indeed - this supplements what I wrote below - thank you.
Sorry, but I'm utterly impressed by your fallacious reasoning :-/ Can
we please stick to the sources? So, in 1589 they had to send for
musicians from Naples to get guitar players. A true sign of the
guitar's popularity in central Italy arround that time ... These
inermedii can't be taken as typical performance situations at all,
the try to present the most exotic range of art available (or
affordable)
Presumably after 1589 the guitar (5 course alla spagnola) became
better
known in the North.
Yes, for any definition of after 1589 ...
The point is that plucking and strumming play was known throughout
the early (Foscarini) and later 17th century so it is not possible
on the available evidence to state that Aggazzari expected strumming
alone - even if he allowed the guitar in basso continuo...
No, the _available_ evidence doesn't allow such a conclusion. That
would
be more of wishful thinking or fancy. When talking about Aggazzari,
why not, for a change, actually use Aggazzari as a source of
information?
(gosh!). His statement is actually pretty clear:
[P.3 ] two kinds of instruments: fundament and ornament. 'chitarrina'
is in the second group. Instuments of the fundament (attempt to) play
the voices of the composition. They _lead_ and _support_ (nota bene:
Aggazzari, like his contemporaries, does not talk of chords at all.
Contino playing is an abreviated kind of colla-parte playing).
[P.4] Some string instruments can play perfetta (full) harmony,
others
(like the chitarrina) can't. This most likely refers to the range of
the
instruments mentioned.
[P.8] about the instruments that don't play fundament: their purpose
is purely decorative (per ornar). The decorate the melody and mix
with the voices (of the written composition): ... has to compose new
upper voices upon the bass and new an varied passagi and
counterpoints There's no doubt whatsoever that Aggazzari is _not_
talking about strumming _or_ plucking a baroque guitar.
Cheers, Ralf Mattes
To get on or off this list see list information at
[1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
References
1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Thanks Monica,
I'm really not saying these things are guitars - simply that the
possibility exists that they are - or are not!
And, yes, I don't rely on Tyler's opinions and have read Meucci's
article and agree with much of what he says.
Martyn
--- On Mon, 12/12/11, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:
From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari
guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Monday, 12 December, 2011, 16:02
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari
guitar
[was Re: Capona?]}
a small 4 course guitar (as described by Cerreto in his 1601
Neapolitan
publication).
The instrument described by Cerreto is not a guitar - at least
according to
Meucci. Cerreto actually describes it as lo Strumento della Chitarra
a
sette Corde, detto Bordelletto alla Taliana. It is a 4-course
instrument
with a re-entrant tuning which as he says is imperfetto, por causa che
in
esso non vi sono tutte le voci graue como habbiamo nel Strumento del
Liuto. He does however mention that the instrument can be strummed.
Cerreto's book was published in Naples and the instrument he was
describing
was probably the same as the Chitarrina alla Napoletana called for in
the
Intermedia i.e. a small lute. The chitarrina alla spagnola was
probably the 5-course Spanish guitar. In 1689 these instruments had
to be imported to Florence specially which suggests that they were not
in common use in northern Italy.
Sebastian Virdung also describes and illustrates the Lauten and
Quintern;
the quintern is a small lute.
Incidentally the four pieces in Barberiis' book for a 4-course
instrument
are also probably for a Chitarrina alla Napoletana - they are
notated in Spanish tablature i.e. the top line is the highest course.
You have to have read Meucci's article to understand why things called
Chitarra etc. are not necessarily guitars. Unfortunately James Tyler
hadn't read Meucci's article and a lot of what he says about the
4-course guitar isn't very helpful.
Monica
--- On Mon, 12/12/11, Monica Hall [1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:
From: Monica Hall [2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re:
Agazzari
guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
To: Martyn Hodgson [3]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
Cc: Vihuelalist [4]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu, Lex Eisenhardt
[5]eisenha...@planet.nl, R. Mattes [6]r...@mh-freiburg.de
Date: Monday, 12 December, 2011, 12:49
We seem to have got a bit at cross purposes here - at least I have.
Agazzari's book was printed in 1607 as far as I am aware. Only
one
year
after Montesardo. Foscarini's book in mixed style was printed in
about
1630 and the version of which includes the continuo instructions
was
printed
in 1640.
I think that it is unlikely that Agazzari was familiar with the
chitarra
spagnuola and had it in mind
when he wrote his book. And he includes the chitarrina amongst
the
instruments which are not capable of reproducing the bass line. I
can't
see any reason for regarding it as a guitar at all. It was surely
a
small
lute?
Monica
- Original Message -
From: Martyn Hodgson [1][7]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
To: Vihuelalist [2][8]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu;
[3][9]eisen...@planet.nl; R.
Mattes [4][10]r...@mh-freiburg.de
Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 12:02 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re:
Agazzari
guitar
[was Re: Capona?]}
Thank you for this - you must have missed my qualifying rider:
'albeit
later sources' expressing that I am well aware these sources
are
not
contemporary with Agazzari. And of course you're quite right
they
do
not constitute evidence of what Agazzari was aware. The point
is
that
plucking and strumming play was known throughout the early
(Foscarini)
and later 17th century so it is not possible on the available
evidence
to state that Aggazzari expected strumming alone - even if he
allowed
the guitar in basso continuo...
MH
--- On Mon, 12/12/11, R. Mattes [5][11]r...@mh-freiburg.de
wrote:
From: R. Mattes [6][12]r...@mh-freiburg.de
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re:
Agazzari
guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
To: Martyn Hodgson [7][13]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk,
Vihuelalist
[VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Thanks Monica,
Yes, we both seem to agree that the chitarra italiana was probably a
small instrument.
But why you suppose that Millioni himself thought the
4-course instrument referred to as il Chitarrino, overo Chitarra
Italiana was a small lute rather than a small guitar is not clear.
I'm aware of the Vocabolario della Crusca reference. But the parallel
in uncertainty may be likened to how the English called the small
guitar a gittern, which for many years contributed to a mistaken
identification. Perhaps 'chitarrino' could mean a small lute or a small
guitar in Italy?
Do you think the name 'chitarra' always needs the qualifier 'spagnola'
before we can think an instrument is the larger 5 course guitar?
But before getting too bogged down, the earlier question was whether
the chitarra spagnola might be included as a continuo instrument, even
by Agazzari. You'll know 'Le stravaganze d'amore' of Corradi (Venice
1616). This is an early 17thcentury source from a Northern Italian
source and comprises songs for 'uni, due et tre voci' with alfabeto for
the 'Chitarra alla Spagnola' as well as tablature for 'Chitarrone'.
This source shows that this chitarra spagnola was tuned in a nominal e'
top course ie the larger instrument. Since it is only a few years after
Agazzari it certainly suggests that the instrument was at least a
possibility to be included in his 'etcetera' of basso continuo
instruments even at such a relatively early date.
Martyn
--- On Mon, 12/12/11, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:
From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari
guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Monday, 12 December, 2011, 17:24
Having a quick look at Meucci's article again there are a few other
things which I think need to be clarified.
The first of these is that in Millioni's 1631 book the 4-course
instrument is referred to as il Chitarrino, overo Chitarra
Italiana which suggests that it was a small lute rather than a
4-course guitar.
Meucci points out that the first edition of the contemporary Italian
dictionary Vocabolario della Crusca printed in 1612 defines the
Chitarra as a kind of lute, which lacks the bass and soprano.
He gives a lot of other examples where it is clear that the Chitarra
Italiana was a small lute.
Giustiniani also distinguishes between the chitarra alla spagnola
and
the chitarra napolitana.
Stuart mentioned Calvi's book. The pieces in tablature are
preceded
by the note Le seguenti Suonate servire anche per la chitarriglia,
ma
sono veramente per la Chitarra. Although Meucci doesn't mention
this
instance it seems to me that the Chitarra here is also a small
lute. The music is quite different from other music for 5-course
instrument. No strummed chords and no 6/4 chords either.
You can't assume that the term chitarra refers to the 5-course
guitar.
As ever
Monica
Original Message -
From: Monica Hall [1][1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
To: Martyn Hodgson [2][2]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
Cc: Vihuelalist [3][3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 4:02 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari
guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re:
Agazzari
guitar
[was Re: Capona?]}
a small 4 course guitar (as described by Cerreto in his 1601
Neapolitan
publication).
The instrument described by Cerreto is not a guitar - at least
according to
Meucci. Cerreto actually describes it as lo Strumento della
Chitarra a
sette Corde, detto Bordelletto alla Taliana. It is a 4-course
instrument
with a re-entrant tuning which as he says is imperfetto, por causa
che in
esso non vi sono tutte le voci graue como habbiamo nel Strumento
del
Liuto.
He does however mention that the instrument can be strummed.
Cerreto's book was published in Naples and the instrument he was
describing
was probably the same as the Chitarrina alla Napoletana called
for
in the
Intermedia i.e. a small lute. The chitarrina alla spagnola was
probably the 5-course Spanish guitar. In 1689 these instruments
had
to be
imported to Florence specially which suggests that they were not
in
common
use in northern Italy.
Sebastian Virdung also describes and illustrates the Lauten and
Quintern;
the quintern is a small lute.
Incidentally the four pieces in Barberiis' book for a 4-course
instrument
[VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Dear Martyn But before getting too bogged down, the earlier question was whether the chitarra spagnola might be included as a continuo instrument, even by Agazzari. You'll know 'Le stravaganze d'amore' of Corradi (Venice 1616). This is an early 17thcentury source from a Northern Italian source and comprises songs for 'uni, due et tre voci' with alfabeto for the 'Chitarra alla Spagnola' as well as tablature for 'Chitarrone'. This source shows that this chitarra spagnola was tuned in a nominal e' top course ie the larger instrument. Since it is only a few years after Agazzari it certainly suggests that the instrument was at least a possibility to be included in his 'etcetera' of basso continuo instruments even at such a relatively early date. Agazzari was working in Rome and Siena, and probably the chitarra spagnuola was more widely known there around 1600. But Agazzari's 'Del sonare sopra il basso' is really about figured bass and counterpoint, and from how he describes the use of the 'ornamental' instruments it appears that the chordal style of the guitar is not within sight. I doubt if Agazzari would have considered the alfabeto of the guitar as a 'foundation', while the bass is not even performed on the guitar. Lex To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
To: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl
Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2011 2:14 PM
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari
guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Maybe my comments were a bit cryptic.
Yes - I see what you mean now.
I meant to say that the fourth course
is a fourth higher than the third course. With non re-entrant stringing
it
would have been a fifth lower than the third course. The intervallic
structure can be compared to the 'temple viejo', and as far as I know it
was not used on guitars in the 17th century, at least not in Millioni
1631. Seems more like a chitarrino alla Napoletana.
I assume that that is what it is. Should we assume that chitarrino alla
Napoletana was the same chitarrino alla Italiana?
I wonder whether there is an native Italian on the list who knows the
meaning or derivation of bordelletto.Bordello in my dictionary is given
as a brothel or uproar.
Monica
- Original Message -
From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
To: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl
Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2011 2:25 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari
guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari
guitar
[was Re: Capona?]}
il Chitarrino, overo Chitarra Italiana which suggests that it
was
a
small lute rather than a 4-course guitar.
But then it would be a small lute tuned like a 4 course guitar in
'temple
nuevo'.
That's what it is. That is what Cerreto's instrument is and it has a
re-entrant tuning.
I thought that Cerreto had a 'temple viejo', strung re-entrant...?
No - you can see it at the top of p.33 of Tyler's book. Only problem -
he has dated the example wrongly as 1568-9! On p.29 he has wrongly
dated James Rowbotham's chart 1601! He got the dates of the two mixed
up. It is obviously a small instrument because it is pitched a perfect
5th above the 5-course guitar.
Monica
Lex
To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu; Monica Hall
mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2011 10:18 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari guitar
[was Re: Capona?]}
But why you suppose that Millioni himself thought the
4-course instrument referred to as il Chitarrino, overo Chitarra
Italiana was a small lute rather than a small guitar is not clear.
Well - if it was just a small 5-course Spanish guitar why should he call it
Italian. He must have perceived some difference between the two. A small
guitar is usually called a chitarigglia which I believe is an Italianized
version of the Spanish guitarilla.
I'm aware of the Vocabolario della Crusca reference. But the parallel
in uncertainty may be likened to how the English called the small
guitar a gittern, which for many years contributed to a mistaken
identification. Perhaps 'chitarrino' could mean a small lute or a small
guitar in Italy?
That is what I am saying.
Do you think the name 'chitarra' always needs the qualifier 'spagnola'
before we can think an instrument is the larger 5 course guitar?
That is what Meucci in effect says and almost all Italian guitar books refer
to it in that way. An exception is Valdambrini.
But before getting too bogged down, the earlier question was whether
the chitarra spagnola might be included as a continuo instrument, even
by Agazzari. You'll know 'Le stravaganze d'amore' of Corradi (Venice
1616). This is an early 17thcentury source from a Northern Italian
source and comprises songs for 'uni, due et tre voci' with alfabeto for
the 'Chitarra alla Spagnola' as well as tablature for 'Chitarrone'.
This source shows that this chitarra spagnola was tuned in a nominal e'
top course ie the larger instrument. Since it is only a few years after
Agazzari it certainly suggests that the instrument was at least a
possibility to be included in his 'etcetera' of basso continuo
instruments even at such a relatively early date.
Well you can include anything in etc. In fact the etc. comes after the
viola, violino, pandora etc. He has said that the chitarrina is not
capable of reproducing the bass line. If my notes are correct (I don't
actually have a copy of the book) he says that wind instruments are not
used.If the 5-course was a novelty
in 1589 how quickly did it become popular enough for Agazzarri to be
familiar with it. You can of course assume whatever you want to.
Monica
--- On Mon, 12/12/11, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:
From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari
guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Monday, 12 December, 2011, 17:24
Having a quick look at Meucci's article again there are a few other
things which I think need to be clarified.
The first of these is that in Millioni's 1631 book the 4-course
instrument is referred to as il Chitarrino, overo Chitarra
Italiana which suggests that it was a small lute rather than a
4-course guitar.
Meucci points out that the first edition of the contemporary Italian
dictionary Vocabolario della Crusca printed in 1612 defines the
Chitarra as a kind of lute, which lacks the bass and soprano.
He gives a lot of other examples where it is clear that the Chitarra
Italiana was a small lute.
Giustiniani also distinguishes between the chitarra alla spagnola
and
the chitarra napolitana.
Stuart mentioned Calvi's book. The pieces in tablature are
preceded
by the note Le seguenti Suonate servire anche per la chitarriglia,
ma
sono veramente per la Chitarra. Although Meucci doesn't mention
this
instance it seems to me that the Chitarra here is also a small
lute. The music is quite different from other music for 5-course
instrument. No strummed chords and no 6/4 chords either.
You can't assume that the term chitarra refers to the 5-course
guitar.
As ever
Monica
Original Message -
From: Monica Hall [1][1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
To: Martyn Hodgson [2][2]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
Cc: Vihuelalist [3][3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 4:02 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari
guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re:
Agazzari
guitar
[was Re: Capona?]}
a small 4 course guitar (as described by Cerreto in his 1601
Neapolitan
publication).
The instrument described by Cerreto is not a guitar - at least
according to
Meucci. Cerreto actually describes it as lo Strumento della
Chitarra a
sette Corde, detto Bordelletto alla Taliana. It is a 4-course
[VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
- Original Message -
From: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl
To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu; Martyn Hodgson
hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2011 10:53 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari guitar
[was Re: Capona?]}
Agazzari was working in Rome and Siena, and probably the chitarra
spagnuola was more widely known there around 1600.
But Agazzari's 'Del sonare sopra il basso' is really about figured bass
and counterpoint, and from how he describes the use of the 'ornamental'
instruments it appears that the chordal style of the guitar is not within
sight. I doubt if Agazzari would have considered the alfabeto of the
guitar as a 'foundation', while the bass is not even performed on the
guitar.
I think you are interpreting what he says in too narrow a way. Amongst the
second group of instruments he has included the Lirone, Cetera and the
Pandora. These are all instruments which are capable of filling in the
harmony to some extent. There is no reason to suppose that they played
nothing but a single lin - what would the point be - and the same is true of
the chitarrina. It could be strumming away in there!
Monica
To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Thanks Lex
Maybe, but plucking to perform basso continuo on the guitar was not
unknown if that's what Agazzi really meant (and I'm not convinced we
can interpret his description as excluding BC using full chords only -
eg strummed). Indeed, there are even some, allbeit later, sources
(Matteis, Murcia) which give detailed instructions on playing guitar BC
employing only the plucking (lute) style. Corbetta in his intabulated
vocal/instrumental settings is also fairly restrained: using plucking
play with the occasional strummed chord.
Martyn
--- On Mon, 12/12/11, eisen...@planet.nl eisen...@planet.nl wrote:
From: eisen...@planet.nl eisen...@planet.nl
Subject: RE: Return to earlier question: {was Re: [VIHUELA] Re:
Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk, Vihuelalist
vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Monday, 12 December, 2011, 9:55
Hi,
I'm not so sure about the 'etc.'
It seems that Agazzari was thinking in terms of counterpoint, the way
the guitar was used (strumming) does not fit in easily. In the end,
there were more composers who were criticizing the use of the guitar
(Castaldi), at that time. I suppose that the plucked chitarrina could
be one of the melodic instruments on his list.
Lex
__
Van: Martyn Hodgson [mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk]
Verzonden: ma 12-12-2011 10:24
Aan: Vihuelalist; eisen...@planet.nl
Onderwerp: Return to earlier question: {was Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Agazzari
guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Thanks Lex.
Yes, these sources are fairly well known - I'm just not sure
terminoligy was sufficiently standardised at the time to draw
unequivocal conclusions and the question as to whether Agazzari
had Millioni's four-course guitar, 'chitarrino' in mind or the
instrument required in the Conserto vaga is open.
But to return to the original question: did Agrazzi purposefully omit
the chitarra spagnuola from his list of instruments as suitable for
basso continuo, or is it included in the etcetera...? I suggested that
since he does not list the instrument amongst those suitable for
embellishment then he did think it suitable for continuo (if rarer than
the instruments he did singled out). However, I'm certainly not
advocating even more banging and thrashing about as fashionable amongst
some modern continuo groupings..
regards
Martyn
--
To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
On Mon, 12 Dec 2011 10:28:52 + (GMT), Martyn Hodgson wrote
Thanks Lex
Maybe, but plucking to perform basso continuo on the guitar was
not unknown if that's what Agazzi really meant (and I'm not
convinced we can interpret his description as excluding BC using
full chords only - eg strummed). Indeed, there are even some,
allbeit later, sources
(Matteis, Murcia) which give detailed instructions on playing
guitar BC employing only the plucking (lute) style.
Evidence? ;-) You aren't seriously taking those as reliable sources
for Agazzari-time performance practise, aren't you? That's like
using the film aof the Woodstock festival as a source for Johann
Strauss (the IInd) walzer performance ...
Just to be clear: I don't argue for banning guitars from early baroque
continuo section, I jsut think we should be a little bit more careful
in what sources we draw our information from.
Cheers, Ralf Mattes
Corbetta in
his intabulated vocal/instrumental settings is also fairly
restrained: using plucking play with the occasional strummed chord.
Martyn
--- On Mon, 12/12/11, eisen...@planet.nl eisen...@planet.nl wrote:
From: eisen...@planet.nl eisen...@planet.nl
Subject: RE: Return to earlier question: {was Re: [VIHUELA] Re:
Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk, Vihuelalist
vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Monday, 12 December, 2011, 9:55
Hi,
I'm not so sure about the 'etc.'
It seems that Agazzari was thinking in terms of counterpoint, the
way the guitar was used (strumming) does not fit in easily. In the
end, there were more composers who were criticizing the use of the
guitar
(Castaldi), at that time. I suppose that the plucked chitarrina could
be one of the melodic instruments on his list.
Lex
__
Van: Martyn Hodgson [mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk]
Verzonden: ma 12-12-2011 10:24
Aan: Vihuelalist; eisen...@planet.nl
Onderwerp: Return to earlier question: {was Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Agazzari
guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Thanks Lex.
Yes, these sources are fairly well known - I'm just not sure
terminoligy was sufficiently standardised at the time to draw
unequivocal conclusions and the question as to whether Agazzari
had Millioni's four-course guitar, 'chitarrino' in mind or the
instrument required in the Conserto vaga is open.
But to return to the original question: did Agrazzi purposefully omit
the chitarra spagnuola from his list of instruments as suitable
for basso continuo, or is it included in the etcetera...? I
suggested that since he does not list the instrument amongst those
suitable for embellishment then he did think it suitable for
continuo (if rarer than the instruments he did singled out).
However, I'm certainly not advocating even more banging and
thrashing about as fashionable amongst some modern continuo groupings..
regards
Martyn
--
To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
R. Mattes -
Hochschule fuer Musik Freiburg
r...@inm.mh-freiburg.de
[VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Thank you for this - you must have missed my qualifying rider: 'albeit
later sources' expressing that I am well aware these sources are not
contemporary with Agazzari. And of course you're quite right they do
not constitute evidence of what Agazzari was aware. The point is that
plucking and strumming play was known throughout the early (Foscarini)
and later 17th century so it is not possible on the available evidence
to state that Aggazzari expected strumming alone - even if he allowed
the guitar in basso continuo...
MH
--- On Mon, 12/12/11, R. Mattes r...@mh-freiburg.de wrote:
From: R. Mattes r...@mh-freiburg.de
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari
guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk, Vihuelalist
vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu, eisen...@planet.nl
Date: Monday, 12 December, 2011, 11:44
On Mon, 12 Dec 2011 10:28:52 + (GMT), Martyn Hodgson wrote
Thanks Lex
Maybe, but plucking to perform basso continuo on the guitar was
not unknown if that's what Agazzi really meant (and I'm not
convinced we can interpret his description as excluding BC using
full chords only - eg strummed). Indeed, there are even some,
allbeit later, sources
(Matteis, Murcia) which give detailed instructions on playing
guitar BC employing only the plucking (lute) style.
Evidence? ;-) You aren't seriously taking those as reliable sources
for Agazzari-time performance practise, aren't you? That's like
using the film aof the Woodstock festival as a source for Johann
Strauss (the IInd) walzer performance ...
Just to be clear: I don't argue for banning guitars from early baroque
continuo section, I jsut think we should be a little bit more careful
in what sources we draw our information from.
Cheers, Ralf Mattes
Corbetta in
his intabulated vocal/instrumental settings is also fairly
restrained: using plucking play with the occasional strummed chord.
Martyn
--- On Mon, 12/12/11, [1]eisen...@planet.nl
[2]eisen...@planet.nl wrote:
From: [3]eisen...@planet.nl [4]eisen...@planet.nl
Subject: RE: Return to earlier question: {was Re: [VIHUELA] Re:
Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
To: Martyn Hodgson [5]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk,
Vihuelalist
[6]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Monday, 12 December, 2011, 9:55
Hi,
I'm not so sure about the 'etc.'
It seems that Agazzari was thinking in terms of counterpoint, the
way the guitar was used (strumming) does not fit in easily. In the
end, there were more composers who were criticizing the use of the
guitar
(Castaldi), at that time. I suppose that the plucked chitarrina
could
be one of the melodic instruments on his list.
Lex
__
Van: Martyn Hodgson [mailto:[7]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk]
Verzonden: ma 12-12-2011 10:24
Aan: Vihuelalist; [8]eisen...@planet.nl
Onderwerp: Return to earlier question: {was Re: [VIHUELA] Re:
Agazzari
guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Thanks Lex.
Yes, these sources are fairly well known - I'm just not sure
terminoligy was sufficiently standardised at the time to draw
unequivocal conclusions and the question as to whether Agazzari
had Millioni's four-course guitar, 'chitarrino' in mind or the
instrument required in the Conserto vaga is open.
But to return to the original question: did Agrazzi purposefully
omit
the chitarra spagnuola from his list of instruments as suitable
for basso continuo, or is it included in the etcetera...? I
suggested that since he does not list the instrument amongst those
suitable for embellishment then he did think it suitable for
continuo (if rarer than the instruments he did singled out).
However, I'm certainly not advocating even more banging and
thrashing about as fashionable amongst some modern continuo
groupings..
regards
Martyn
--
To get on or off this list see list information at
[9]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
R. Mattes -
Hochschule fuer Musik Freiburg
[10]r...@inm.mh-freiburg.de
--
References
1. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisen...@planet.nl
2. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisen...@planet.nl
3. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisen...@planet.nl
4. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisen...@planet.nl
5. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
6. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
7.
[VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
We seem to have got a bit at cross purposes here - at least I have.
Agazzari's book was printed in 1607 as far as I am aware. Only one year
after Montesardo. Foscarini's book in mixed style was printed in about
1630 and the version of which includes the continuo instructions was printed
in 1640.
I think that it is unlikely that Agazzari was familiar with the chitarra
spagnuola and had it in mind
when he wrote his book. And he includes the chitarrina amongst the
instruments which are not capable of reproducing the bass line. I can't
see any reason for regarding it as a guitar at all. It was surely a small
lute?
Monica
- Original Message -
From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu; eisen...@planet.nl; R.
Mattes r...@mh-freiburg.de
Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 12:02 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari guitar
[was Re: Capona?]}
Thank you for this - you must have missed my qualifying rider: 'albeit
later sources' expressing that I am well aware these sources are not
contemporary with Agazzari. And of course you're quite right they do
not constitute evidence of what Agazzari was aware. The point is that
plucking and strumming play was known throughout the early (Foscarini)
and later 17th century so it is not possible on the available evidence
to state that Aggazzari expected strumming alone - even if he allowed
the guitar in basso continuo...
MH
--- On Mon, 12/12/11, R. Mattes r...@mh-freiburg.de wrote:
From: R. Mattes r...@mh-freiburg.de
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari
guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk, Vihuelalist
vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu, eisen...@planet.nl
Date: Monday, 12 December, 2011, 11:44
On Mon, 12 Dec 2011 10:28:52 + (GMT), Martyn Hodgson wrote
Thanks Lex
Maybe, but plucking to perform basso continuo on the guitar was
not unknown if that's what Agazzi really meant (and I'm not
convinced we can interpret his description as excluding BC using
full chords only - eg strummed). Indeed, there are even some,
allbeit later, sources
(Matteis, Murcia) which give detailed instructions on playing
guitar BC employing only the plucking (lute) style.
Evidence? ;-) You aren't seriously taking those as reliable sources
for Agazzari-time performance practise, aren't you? That's like
using the film aof the Woodstock festival as a source for Johann
Strauss (the IInd) walzer performance ...
Just to be clear: I don't argue for banning guitars from early baroque
continuo section, I jsut think we should be a little bit more careful
in what sources we draw our information from.
Cheers, Ralf Mattes
Corbetta in
his intabulated vocal/instrumental settings is also fairly
restrained: using plucking play with the occasional strummed chord.
Martyn
--- On Mon, 12/12/11, [1]eisen...@planet.nl
[2]eisen...@planet.nl wrote:
From: [3]eisen...@planet.nl [4]eisen...@planet.nl
Subject: RE: Return to earlier question: {was Re: [VIHUELA] Re:
Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
To: Martyn Hodgson [5]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk,
Vihuelalist
[6]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Monday, 12 December, 2011, 9:55
Hi,
I'm not so sure about the 'etc.'
It seems that Agazzari was thinking in terms of counterpoint, the
way the guitar was used (strumming) does not fit in easily. In the
end, there were more composers who were criticizing the use of the
guitar
(Castaldi), at that time. I suppose that the plucked chitarrina
could
be one of the melodic instruments on his list.
Lex
__
Van: Martyn Hodgson [mailto:[7]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk]
Verzonden: ma 12-12-2011 10:24
Aan: Vihuelalist; [8]eisen...@planet.nl
Onderwerp: Return to earlier question: {was Re: [VIHUELA] Re:
Agazzari
guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Thanks Lex.
Yes, these sources are fairly well known - I'm just not sure
terminoligy was sufficiently standardised at the time to draw
unequivocal conclusions and the question as to whether Agazzari
had Millioni's four-course guitar, 'chitarrino' in mind or the
instrument required in the Conserto vaga is open.
But to return to the original question: did Agrazzi purposefully
omit
the chitarra spagnuola from his list of instruments as suitable
for basso continuo, or is it included in the etcetera...? I
suggested that since he does not list the instrument amongst those
suitable for embellishment then he did think it suitable for
continuo (if rarer than the instruments he did singled out).
However, I'm certainly not advocating even
[VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Dear Monica,
I'm not sure we are at cross purposes since we all seem to agree that
nothing is certain about what precise instrument Agazzari had in mind
and whether he might have come accross the chitarra spagnuola (and
implied it in his 'etcetera').
Of course Foscarini's publications come a couple of decades after
Agazzari's writings
but we do know the chitarra spagnuola (or very similar term) seems to
have been known even before then. Christofano Malvezzi, in his
publication Intermedi et concerti (Venice, 1591) describes performers
and instruments used in the Florentine intermedi of 1589.
Cavalieri's acclaimed ''O che nouvo miracolo' (aka later as 'Aria del
Gran Duca') has 'Vittoria Archilei, Luccia Caccini, e Margherita' and
even lists the instruments they played:
'e sounavao Vittoria, e Lucia, una Chitarrina per uno, una alla
Spagnola, e l'altra alla Napolettana, '.
Does 'Chitarrina' here really mean a not-guitar shaped instrument? I
suggest we need
to be very careful about assuming a degree of standardisation of such
terms at this time. And does 'Chitarrina' also necessarily imply a
small instrument (either 'alla Spagnola' or 'alla Napolettana') or is
it a reference to a guitar generally in this source?
I've always taken the Intermedi record to mean a Chittara Spagnuola (5
course) and
a small 4 course guitar (as described by Cerreto in his 1601 Neapolitan
publication). Else why bother so much to differentiate between the two
('alla Spagnola' / ' alla Napolettana')?
I recall the subject of guitars in the Florentine Intermedi has
also been discussed elswhere (and perhaps even on this list) sometime
ago - but I can't put my hand on the relevant paper at the moment - can
you?
Martyn
--- On Mon, 12/12/11, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:
From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari
guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu, Lex Eisenhardt
eisenha...@planet.nl, R. Mattes r...@mh-freiburg.de
Date: Monday, 12 December, 2011, 12:49
We seem to have got a bit at cross purposes here - at least I have.
Agazzari's book was printed in 1607 as far as I am aware. Only one
year
after Montesardo. Foscarini's book in mixed style was printed in
about
1630 and the version of which includes the continuo instructions was
printed
in 1640.
I think that it is unlikely that Agazzari was familiar with the
chitarra
spagnuola and had it in mind
when he wrote his book. And he includes the chitarrina amongst the
instruments which are not capable of reproducing the bass line. I
can't
see any reason for regarding it as a guitar at all. It was surely a
small
lute?
Monica
- Original Message -
From: Martyn Hodgson [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
To: Vihuelalist [2]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu;
[3]eisen...@planet.nl; R.
Mattes [4]r...@mh-freiburg.de
Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 12:02 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari
guitar
[was Re: Capona?]}
Thank you for this - you must have missed my qualifying rider:
'albeit
later sources' expressing that I am well aware these sources are
not
contemporary with Agazzari. And of course you're quite right they
do
not constitute evidence of what Agazzari was aware. The point is
that
plucking and strumming play was known throughout the early
(Foscarini)
and later 17th century so it is not possible on the available
evidence
to state that Aggazzari expected strumming alone - even if he
allowed
the guitar in basso continuo...
MH
--- On Mon, 12/12/11, R. Mattes [5]r...@mh-freiburg.de wrote:
From: R. Mattes [6]r...@mh-freiburg.de
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re:
Agazzari
guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
To: Martyn Hodgson [7]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk,
Vihuelalist
[8]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu, [9]eisen...@planet.nl
Date: Monday, 12 December, 2011, 11:44
On Mon, 12 Dec 2011 10:28:52 + (GMT), Martyn Hodgson wrote
Thanks Lex
Maybe, but plucking to perform basso continuo on the guitar
was
not unknown if that's what Agazzi really meant (and I'm not
convinced we can interpret his description as excluding BC
using
full chords only - eg strummed). Indeed, there are even some,
allbeit later, sources
(Matteis, Murcia) which give detailed instructions on playing
guitar BC employing only the plucking (lute) style.
Evidence? ;-) You aren't seriously taking those as reliable sources
for Agazzari-time
[VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Indeed - this supplements what I wrote below - thank you.
Presumably after 1589 the guitar (5 course alla spagnola) became better
known in the North.
MH
From: Eloy Cruz eloyc...@gmail.com
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari
guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Monday, 12 December, 2011, 14:27
Dear List
I think the chitarra was unknown in Northern Italy, but not so much so
in
Naples. From Nina Treadwell's The chitarra spagnola and Italian
monody,
1589 to c. 1650:
On March 18, 1589 three guitars arrived in Florence from the
Spanish-ruled
city of Naples, ordered by Emililo de' Cavalieri, overseer of artistic
activities at the court of Ferdinand I de' Medici. Cavalieri had a
specific
purpose for these instruments: to accompany the solo sections in the
closing
ballo of the sixth and last intermedio, composed as part of the wedding
celebrations of Ferdinand and the granddaughter of Catharine de'
Medici,
Christine of Lorraine. The performance of a set of intermedi between
the
acts of a play was a characteristic part of such important
celebrations.
-Those of 1589 were originally performed in conjunction with Girolamo
Bargagli^1s comedy La Pellegrina and were among the most magnificent of
their
kind. This reference to the guitar in the 1589 intermedi is the first
extant
record we have of the guitar's use in northern Italy.
Cheers
eloy
Dear Monica,
I'm not sure we are at cross purposes since we all seem to agree
that
nothing is certain about what precise instrument Agazzari had in
mind
and whether he might have come accross the chitarra spagnuola
(and
implied it in his 'etcetera').
Of course Foscarini's publications come a couple of decades after
Agazzari's writings but we do know the chitarra spagnuola (or
very similarterm) seems to
have been known even before then. Christofano Malvezzi, in his
publication Intermedi et concerti (Venice, 1591) describes
performers
and instruments used in the Florentine intermedi of 1589.
Cavalieri's acclaimed ''O che nouvo miracolo' (aka later as 'Aria
del
Gran Duca') has 'Vittoria Archilei, Luccia Caccini, e Margherita'
and
even lists the instruments they played:
'e sounavao Vittoria, e Lucia, una Chitarrina per uno, una alla
Spagnola, e l'altra alla Napolettana, '.
Does 'Chitarrina' here really mean a not-guitar shaped
instrument? I
suggest we need
to be very careful about assuming a degree of standardisation of
such
terms at this time. And does 'Chitarrina' also necessarily imply
a
small instrument (either 'alla Spagnola' or 'alla Napolettana')
or is
it a reference to a guitar generally in this source?
I've always taken the Intermedi record to mean a Chittara
Spagnuola (5
course) and
a small 4 course guitar (as described by Cerreto in his 1601
Neapolitan
publication). Else why bother so much to differentiate between the
two
('alla Spagnola' / ' alla Napolettana')?
I recall the subject of guitars in the Florentine Intermedi has
also been discussed elswhere (and perhaps even on this list)
sometime
ago - but I can't put my hand on the relevant paper at the moment
- can
you?
Martyn
--- On Mon, 12/12/11, Monica Hall [1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
wrote:
From: Monica Hall [2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re:
Agazzari
guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
To: Martyn Hodgson [3]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
Cc: Vihuelalist [4]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu, Lex
Eisenhardt
[5]eisenha...@planet.nl, R. Mattes [6]r...@mh-freiburg.de
Date: Monday, 12 December, 2011, 12:49
We seem to have got a bit at cross purposes here - at least I
have.
Agazzari's book was printed in 1607 as far as I am aware. Only
one
year
after Montesardo. Foscarini's book in mixed style was printed in
about
1630 and the version of which includes the continuo instructions
was
printed
in 1640.
I think that it is unlikely that Agazzari was familiar with the
chitarra
spagnuola and had it in mind
when he wrote his book. And he includes the chitarrina amongst
the
instruments which are not capable of reproducing the bass
line. I
can't
see any reason for regarding it as a guitar at all. It was
surely a
small
lute?
Monica
- Original Message -
From: Martyn Hodgson [1][7]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
To: Vihuelalist
[VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Having a quick look at Meucci's article again there are a few other
things which I think need to be clarified.
The first of these is that in Millioni's 1631 book the 4-course
instrument is referred to as
il Chitarrino, overo Chitarra Italiana which suggests that it was a
small lute rather than a 4-course guitar.
Meucci points out that the first edition of the contemporary Italian
dictionary Vocabolario della Crusca printed in 1612 defines the
Chitarra as a kind of lute, which lacks the bass and soprano.
He gives a lot of other examples where it is clear that the Chitarra
Italiana was a small lute.
Giustiniani also distinguishes between the chitarra alla spagnola and
the chitarra napolitana.
Stuart mentioned Calvi's book. The pieces in tablature are preceded
by the note Le seguenti Suonate servire anche per la chitarriglia, ma
sono veramente per la Chitarra. Although Meucci doesn't mention this
instance it seems to me that the Chitarra here is also a small
lute. The music is quite different from other music for 5-course
instrument. No strummed chords and no 6/4 chords either.
You can't assume that the term chitarra refers to the 5-course
guitar.
As ever
Monica
Original Message -
From: Monica Hall [1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
To: Martyn Hodgson [2]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
Cc: Vihuelalist [3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 4:02 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari
guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari
guitar
[was Re: Capona?]}
a small 4 course guitar (as described by Cerreto in his 1601
Neapolitan
publication).
The instrument described by Cerreto is not a guitar - at least
according to
Meucci. Cerreto actually describes it as lo Strumento della
Chitarra a
sette Corde, detto Bordelletto alla Taliana. It is a 4-course
instrument
with a re-entrant tuning which as he says is imperfetto, por causa
che in
esso non vi sono tutte le voci graue como habbiamo nel Strumento del
Liuto.
He does however mention that the instrument can be strummed.
Cerreto's book was published in Naples and the instrument he was
describing
was probably the same as the Chitarrina alla Napoletana called for
in the
Intermedia i.e. a small lute. The chitarrina alla spagnola was
probably the 5-course Spanish guitar. In 1689 these instruments had
to be
imported to Florence specially which suggests that they were not in
common
use in northern Italy.
Sebastian Virdung also describes and illustrates the Lauten and
Quintern;
the quintern is a small lute.
Incidentally the four pieces in Barberiis' book for a 4-course
instrument
are also probably for a Chitarrina alla Napoletana - they are
notated in
Spanish tablature i.e. the top line is the highest course.
You have to have read Meucci's article to understand why things
called
Chitarra etc. are not necessarily guitars. Unfortunately James
Tyler
hadn't read Meucci's article and a lot of what he says about the
4-course
guitar isn't very helpful.
Monica
--- On Mon, 12/12/11, Monica Hall [4]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
wrote:
From: Monica Hall [5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re:
Agazzari
guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
To: Martyn Hodgson [6]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
Cc: Vihuelalist [7]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu, Lex
Eisenhardt
[8]eisenha...@planet.nl, R. Mattes [9]r...@mh-freiburg.de
Date: Monday, 12 December, 2011, 12:49
We seem to have got a bit at cross purposes here - at least I
have.
Agazzari's book was printed in 1607 as far as I am aware. Only
one
year
after Montesardo. Foscarini's book in mixed style was printed in
about
1630 and the version of which includes the continuo instructions
was
printed
in 1640.
I think that it is unlikely that Agazzari was familiar with the
chitarra
spagnuola and had it in mind
when he wrote his book. And he includes the chitarrina amongst
the
instruments which are not capable of reproducing the bass line.
I
can't
see any reason for regarding it as a guitar at all. It was
surely a
small
lute?
Monica
- Original Message -
From: Martyn Hodgson [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
To: Vihuelalist [2]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu;
[3]eisen...@planet.nl; R.
Mattes [4]r...@mh-freiburg.de
Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 12:02 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re:
Agazzari
guitar
[was Re: Capona
[VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
On 12/12/2011 17:24, Monica Hall wrote:
Having a quick look at Meucci's article again there are a few other
things which I think need to be clarified.
The first of these is that in Millioni's 1631 book the 4-course
instrument is referred to as
il Chitarrino, overo Chitarra Italiana which suggests that it was a
small lute rather than a 4-course guitar.
Meucci points out that the first edition of the contemporary Italian
dictionary Vocabolario della Crusca printed in 1612 defines the
Chitarra as a kind of lute, which lacks the bass and soprano.
He gives a lot of other examples where it is clear that the Chitarra
Italiana was a small lute.
Giustiniani also distinguishes between the chitarra alla spagnola and
the chitarra napolitana.
Stuart mentioned Calvi's book. The pieces in tablature are preceded
by the note Le seguenti Suonate servire anche per la chitarriglia, ma
sono veramente per la Chitarra. Although Meucci doesn't mention this
instance it seems to me that the Chitarra here is also a small
lute. The music is quite different from other music for 5-course
instrument. No strummed chords and no 6/4 chords either.
You can't assume that the term chitarra refers to the 5-course
guitar.
As ever
Monica
Very interesting, Monica. Is Meucci's article readily available anywhere? More
to the point, is it in in English? And better still is there a good summary of
the key points somewhere!!
You say
il Chitarrino, overo Chitarra Italiana which suggests that it was a
small lute rather than a 4-course guitar.
I've heard some sceptical mutterings over the years about the Chitarra
Italiana. But now it simply sounds like an Italian version of the mandore
which is some kind of survival of the medieval gittern/quintern... small,
lute-shaped. The mandore became popular in France in the 1580s and the Skene
and Ulm MSS from the 1620s have hundreds of pieces. Donald Gill thought that
the five-course mandore would probably have been a bit bigger than the really
tiny four-course instruments. The tuning of the mandore typically is 5-4-5 (but
the top string could be lowered in some tunings) and this tuning is not at all
like a guitar. The Skene MS does have a section with the mandore tuned like a
lute, though.
So: is the 'chitarra Italiana really just a mandore? (small or smallish,
lute-shaped, even,perhaps, carved from the solid in some instances? But with more of
a sickle pegbox than a lute pegbox).
But then there is the angle which seems to have tickled Roman T: that the
chitarra Italiana is not from lute/gittern lineage at all. I've only read tiny
pieces pieces about the Meucci article but the suggestion seems to be a
non-Moorish origin? Or, was Ralf hinting that 'humanist' writers in Italy,
writing fancifully, (does Meucci chart all of this?)fancied the origin of the
little lute in ancient Greek depictions of the 'pandurina'?
Stuart
Original Message -
From: Monica Hall[1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
To: Martyn Hodgson[2]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
Cc: Vihuelalist[3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 4:02 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari
guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari
guitar
[was Re: Capona?]}
a small 4 course guitar (as described by Cerreto in his 1601
Neapolitan
publication).
The instrument described by Cerreto is not a guitar - at least
according to
Meucci. Cerreto actually describes it as lo Strumento della
Chitarra a
sette Corde, detto Bordelletto alla Taliana. It is a 4-course
instrument
with a re-entrant tuning which as he says is imperfetto, por causa
che in
esso non vi sono tutte le voci graue como habbiamo nel Strumento del
Liuto.
He does however mention that the instrument can be strummed.
Cerreto's book was published in Naples and the instrument he was
describing
was probably the same as the Chitarrina alla Napoletana called for
in the
Intermedia i.e. a small lute. The chitarrina alla spagnola was
probably the 5-course Spanish guitar. In 1689 these instruments had
to be
imported to Florence specially which suggests that they were not in
common
use in northern Italy.
Sebastian Virdung also describes and illustrates the Lauten and
Quintern;
the quintern is a small lute.
Incidentally the four pieces in Barberiis' book for a 4-course
instrument
are also probably for a Chitarrina alla Napoletana - they are
notated in
Spanish tablature i.e. the top line is the highest course.
You have to have read Meucci's article to understand why things
called
[VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
The first of these is that in Millioni's 1631 book the 4-course instrument is referred to as il Chitarrino, overo Chitarra Italiana which suggests that it was a small lute rather than a 4-course guitar. But then it would be a small lute tuned like a 4 course guitar in 'temple nuevo'. Lex To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari
guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
il Chitarrino, overo Chitarra Italiana which suggests that it was a
small lute rather than a 4-course guitar.
But then it would be a small lute tuned like a 4 course guitar in 'temple
nuevo'.
That's what it is. That is what Cerreto's instrument is and it has a
re-entrant tuning. And he says
E quando tale strumento si sonara arpiggiando con tutte le dita della mano
destra, sara anco bello effeto, ma questo modo di sonare si puo imparare con
lunga prattica.
It could be the same instrument as Agazzarri's and could possibly have
filled in the harmony with strummed chords as well as playing a decorated
melodic line.
Monica.
To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 7:58 PM
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari
guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Very interesting, Monica. Is Meucci's article readily available anywhere?
More to the point, is it in in English? And better still is there a good
summary of the key points somewhere!!
Unfortunately it has not been translated into English although it has been
translated into French. I suggested to Chris Goodwin that we should get it
translated into English but he wasn't very enthusiastic. He suggested that
I should do a summary of it and I did start but there aren't enough hous in
the day to do everything.
You say
il Chitarrino, overo Chitarra Italiana which suggests that it was a
small lute rather than a 4-course guitar.
I've heard some sceptical mutterings over the years about the Chitarra
Italiana. But now it simply sounds like an Italian version of the mandore
which is some kind of survival of the medieval gittern/quintern... small,
lute-shaped.
Yes - that seems to be the case.
So: is the 'chitarra Italiana really just a mandore? (small or smallish,
lute-shaped, even,perhaps, carved from the solid in some instances? But
with more of a sickle pegbox than a lute pegbox).
Possibly
But then there is the angle which seems to have tickled Roman T: that
the chitarra Italiana is not from lute/gittern lineage at all. I've only
read tiny pieces pieces about the Meucci article but the suggestion seems
to be a non-Moorish origin? Or, was Ralf hinting that 'humanist' writers
in Italy, writing fancifully, (does Meucci chart all of this?)fancied the
origin of the little lute in ancient Greek depictions of the 'pandurina'?
Well - not all of it and it is too late at night for me to go into all of
it. But it seems possible that it was the characteristically Neapolitan
small lute/mandora which Giustiniani mentions. He says Ettore Gesualdo
and Fabrizio Fillamarino use to play it in consort with Carlo Gesualdo no
less. He also mentions the sordellino as being a Neapolitan invention.
And then there is the buttafuoco. These odd little instruments pop up from
time to time and then pop down again.
Monica
Original Message -
From: Monica Hall[1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
To: Martyn Hodgson[2]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
Cc: Vihuelalist[3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 4:02 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari
guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re:
Agazzari
guitar
[was Re: Capona?]}
a small 4 course guitar (as described by Cerreto in his 1601
Neapolitan
publication).
The instrument described by Cerreto is not a guitar - at least
according to
Meucci. Cerreto actually describes it as lo Strumento della
Chitarra a
sette Corde, detto Bordelletto alla Taliana. It is a 4-course
instrument
with a re-entrant tuning which as he says is imperfetto, por causa
che in
esso non vi sono tutte le voci graue como habbiamo nel Strumento
del
Liuto.
He does however mention that the instrument can be strummed.
Cerreto's book was published in Naples and the instrument he was
describing
was probably the same as the Chitarrina alla Napoletana called
for
in the
Intermedia i.e. a small lute. The chitarrina alla spagnola was
probably the 5-course Spanish guitar. In 1689 these instruments
had
to be
imported to Florence specially which suggests that they were not
in
common
use in northern Italy.
Sebastian Virdung also describes and illustrates the Lauten and
Quintern;
the quintern is a small lute.
Incidentally the four pieces in Barberiis' book for a 4-course
instrument
are also probably for a Chitarrina alla Napoletana - they are
notated in
Spanish tablature i.e. the top line is the highest course.
You have to have read Meucci's article to understand why things
called
Chitarra etc. are not necessarily guitars. Unfortunately James
Tyler
hadn't read Meucci's article and a lot of what he says about the
4-course
guitar isn't very helpful.
Monica
--- On Mon, 12/12/11, Monica Hall[4]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
wrote:
From: Monica Hall[5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re:
Agazzari
guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
To: Martyn Hodgson[6]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
Cc: Vihuelalist[7]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu, Lex
Eisenhardt
[8]eisenha...@planet.nl, R. Mattes[9]r...@mh-freiburg.de
Date: Monday, 12 December, 2011, 12:49
We seem to have got a bit at cross purposes here - at least I
[VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
il Chitarrino, overo Chitarra Italiana which suggests that it was a small lute rather than a 4-course guitar. But then it would be a small lute tuned like a 4 course guitar in 'temple nuevo'. That's what it is. That is what Cerreto's instrument is and it has a re-entrant tuning. I thought that Cerreto had a 'temple viejo', strung re-entrant...? Lex To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
