Re: breakindent, take 2
It would be nice if I could specificy additional indent for continuation lines. You make indent for continuation line *EQUAL* to indent of the 1st screen line. I use showbreak for this. Wouldn't breakindent=2 just duplicate the funcitonality of ':set breakindent' and ':set showbreak=\ \ ' (except the higlighting color)? It would not be difficult to add, though. (And for negative breakindent, well, I would think this is rather typesetting issue; but it is true once breakindent is a number, that would be trivial enhancement). Vaclav
Re: breakindent, take 2
On Mon, 28 May 2007 16:04:17 +0200, A.J.Mechelynck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: With this change plus 'linebreak' on, it could be made to simulate French paragrah style for text, where the first line of a paragraph starts maybe 1em or so right of the left margin (but with no blank line, unlike American paragraph style which uses flush-left alignment with a blank line between paragraphs). That would be useful. Would there be any benefit from making it a string option that accepted numbers only, so there could be three styles? breakindent=nabsolute positioning or broken lines breakindent=+n broken lines have additional indentation breakindent=-n broken lines have reduced indentation -- Matthew Winn
Re: breakindent, take 2
Would there be any benefit from making it a string option that accepted numbers only, so there could be three styles? breakindent=nabsolute positioning or broken lines breakindent=+n broken lines have additional indentation breakindent=-n broken lines have reduced indentation I am a bit at loss now: (a) if I switch to breakindent being a number, how will it be turned off? As suggested, the actual breakindent is 0, positive/negative values would be possible for shifting the indent right/left. But there is no value to say: no breakindent, except for the suggestion (b) breakindent being string and parsing 0' as no breakindent, +0 (=-0) as keep the indentation, etc for +-1, ... . But it is non-intuitive to have +0==-0!=0 and I am not sure how to do that (e.g. what variable will keep that in? if string, it will be very slow, it would have to be parsed at every line being displayed (!) etc.). (c) Another option would be to have a numerical value 'breakindentextra' or 'breakindentshift' (or some different name) taking numerical (negative, 0, positive) that would do the extra indent, while keeping breakindent bool to turn that on/off. But that gives 3 variables (bri, brimin, briextra). (d) To save the variable, 'breakindentmin' could be used do disable breakindent (if 0, since that makes no sense) or enable it (if 0), while breakindentextra would be as sub (c). In this case, 'breakindentmin' would be probably renamed to breakindent. But it is not very intuitive. What do you think? I prefer (c) from implementation, efficiency and intuitivity perspective. Vaclav
Re: breakindent, take 2
Hi, What do you think? I prefer (c) from implementation, efficiency and intuitivity perspective. I agree. Strongly. Great patch, by the way :-) - Nico
Re: breakindent, take 2
On 5/29/07, Nico Weber [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What do you think? I prefer (c) from implementation, efficiency and intuitivity perspective. I agree. Strongly. Yes, I agree with (c) , too. I suggested once new type of options to vim that behaved both like boolean, and numeric. But Bram rejected this. It's a pity because this would make for lesser number of options. Actually, the options that would be three-way boolean, and string, and numeric would be even better. Yakov
Re: breakindent, take 2
On 5/29/07, Yakov Lerner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 5/29/07, Nico Weber [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What do you think? I prefer (c) from implementation, efficiency and intuitivity perspective. I agree. Strongly. Yes, I agree with (c) , too. I suggested once new type of options to vim that behaved both like boolean, and numeric. But Bram rejected this. It's a pity because this would make for lesser number of options. Actually, the options that would be three-way boolean, and string, and numeric would be even better. An afterthought. A string-typed 'breakindent' option could work, too. Empty value=off, 0=on, +n, -n. Another advantage of string option is that you can add additional flags to it later, without multiplying number of new options ( a-la 'compatible', 'viminfo', 'giooptions' bag-of-flags ). Bram is always reluctant to add new options, so this can be a consideration. Yakov
Re: Why bottom-posting is prefered on Vim Mainling List?
Steve Hall [EMAIL PROTECTED] 写于 2007-05-29 12:19:43: You could say that top posting is easier to write, but bottom posting is easier to read. The extra effort of one poster saves all the readers the same amount of effort. For a group, bottom posting keeps everyone on track. And if done well, individual posts can stand alone in an archive without a peruser having to go paging through a whole thread. Hi, It seems that top-posters and bottom-posters belongs to different party and no one can convice another. An explaination why top-post is easier to read: When I am viewing an e-mail, the reply is the main part of the message and I usually quite aware of what the original post is. So I should be able to see the reply when I open the message. If the message is bottom post, I will have to scroll down and down to find where the author really start to say something. If the reply starts on line 1000 while the messages ends on line 2000 it will be quite difficult to know line 1000 is the start of reply and I should read from that line. While for the top-post, I know the first line is the start of reply and I can read the reply without any difficulty. In an active forum, threads grown long quickly, with top-post, we focus on what the message saids and waste no time. Write top-post or bottom-post makes no difference for me, the problem is that I found bottom-post is harder to read since I will have to skim all original messages before I could read the actual reply. Well, since no one could convice another, I'll stick to the community rule. -- Sincerely, Pan, Shi Zhu. ext: 2606
Re: Why bottom-posting is prefered on Vim Mainling List?
* [EMAIL PROTECTED] is quoted my replies are inline below : Steve Hall [EMAIL PROTECTED] 写于 2007-05-29 12:19:43: You could say that top posting is easier to write, but bottom posting is easier to read. The extra effort of one poster saves all the readers the same amount of effort. For a group, bottom posting keeps everyone on track. And if done well, individual posts can stand alone in an archive without a peruser having to go paging through a whole thread. It seems that top-posters and bottom-posters belongs to different party and no one can convice another. An explaination why top-post is easier to read: When I am viewing an e-mail, the reply is the main part of the message and I usually quite aware of what the original post is. So I should be able to see the reply when I open the message. Notice how I have set up my reply attribution above. It lets people know to look down for my comments. If the message is bottom post, I will have to scroll down and down to find where the author really start to say something. If the reply starts on line 1000 while the messages ends on line 2000 it will be quite difficult to know line 1000 is the start of reply and I should read from that line. When replying to very long messages it's best to trim the quoted message, leaving only relevant parts to your reply and noting where you have trimmed with something like snip, to avoid that problem While for the top-post, I know the first line is the start of reply and I can read the reply without any difficulty. In an active forum, threads grown long quickly, with top-post, we focus on what the message saids and waste no time. That's fine for one to one emails where you can usually remember what the conversation is with that person, but on lists where there are hundreds of messages it is difficult to remember details you need to keep context. In particular it's better for people searching list archives for similar problems years later - it minimises the time to find answers. Write top-post or bottom-post makes no difference for me, the problem is that I found bottom-post is harder to read since I will have to skim all original messages before I could read the actual reply. Again, if people trimmed as they went that shouldn't be a problem. Well, since no one could convice another, I'll stick to the community rule. :) -- Troy Piggins | http://piggo.com/~troy __ ___ RLU#415538\ \ / (_)_ __ ,-O (o-O \ V /| | ' \ O ) //\ O Vim 7.0.22 \_/ |_|_|_|_| `-O V_/_ OOO
Re: Why bottom-posting is prefered on Vim Mainling List?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Steve Hall [EMAIL PROTECTED] 写于 2007-05-29 12:19:43: You could say that top posting is easier to write, but bottom posting is easier to read. The extra effort of one poster saves all the readers the same amount of effort. For a group, bottom posting keeps everyone on track. And if done well, individual posts can stand alone in an archive without a peruser having to go paging through a whole thread. Hi, It seems that top-posters and bottom-posters belongs to different party and no one can convice another. An explaination why top-post is easier to read: When I am viewing an e-mail, the reply is the main part of the message and I usually quite aware of what the original post is. So I should be able to see the reply when I open the message. If the message is bottom post, I will have to scroll down and down to find where the author really start to say something. If the reply starts on line 1000 while the messages ends on line 2000 it will be quite difficult to know line 1000 is the start of reply and I should read from that line. Such an event is usually an indication that far too much context has been provided (the me-too scenario, typically). While for the top-post, I know the first line is the start of reply and I can read the reply without any difficulty. In an active forum, threads grown long quickly, with top-post, we focus on what the message saids and waste no time. Write top-post or bottom-post makes no difference for me, the problem is that I found bottom-post is harder to read since I will have to skim all original messages before I could read the actual reply. Well, since no one could convice another, I'll stick to the community rule. You aren't considering the case where people are posting item-by-item responses (as I have just done). This is absolutely impossible to read when top-posting. This is why bottom-posting is preferred in pretty much any forum where item-wise responses are likely. You can argue about whether a top-post or bottom-post looks better for non-item-wise posts, but the moment someone tries to address individual points separately (which is often a good idea), there is no longer any room for questioning: bottom-posting is the clear winner. I thought that Mark Woodward demonstrated this rather well. Even if you're not posting an item-by-item response, top-posting effectively prevents anyone from writing an item-wise response to your response, since mixed top-and-bottom posting is a clear loser. -- Micah J. Cowan Programmer, musician, typesetting enthusiast, gamer... http://micah.cowan.name/ signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Why bottom-posting is prefered on Vim Mainling List?
On Tue, 29 May 2007 14:12:07 +0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: An explaination why top-post is easier to read: When I am viewing an e-mail, the reply is the main part of the message and I usually quite aware of what the original post is. So I should be able to see the reply when I open the message. That sounds reasonable, until you think about it more realistically. A long-running thread may contain hundreds of messages spread over a period of several days, or even weeks. People are dipping in and out of the thread at all times, and they're reading other threads as well. It's just not possible to be aware of what the original post is in most cases. For example, your message is just one of 170 messages I have waiting to be read right now. When I read your message I may be able to work out what it's referring to after a while, but how am I supposed to know this right from the start with no context to go on? Remember, when you write your message the point you're replying to is fresh in your mind. When someone else reads your message it may be a couple of days since they read the one you responded to, so how are they going to know what you meant? If the message is bottom post, I will have to scroll down and down to find where the author really start to say something. If the reply starts on line 1000 while the messages ends on line 2000 it will be quite difficult to know line 1000 is the start of reply and I should read from that line. The problem there isn't the style of posting but the lack of trimming. Whether you top-post or bottom-post you should ALWAYS trim out any quoted material you don't need. Although many experienced Internet users complain about top-posting, often the real issue that bothers them is that top-posters almost invariably leave hundreds or thousands of unnecessary text dangling off the bottom of their message. The same attitude that says the cursor's at the top so that's where I'll type also says the entire message is quoted so that's how it'll stay. While for the top-post, I know the first line is the start of reply and I can read the reply without any difficulty. In an active forum, threads grown long quickly, with top-post, we focus on what the message saids and waste no time. That depends how you read your messages. A little-known but extremely useful feature of many mail and news clients is single key read. It's a feature that allows you to use a single key both for paging down through each message and for moving on to the next message. It makes reading large numbers of messages a breeze and is also easy on the muscles. Top-posting completely ruins this, because you end up having to page down through the unnecessary trailing content left by the top-posters. It's possible to work around this by using different keystrokes for moving between messages and for scrolling messages, but that takes more effort and, if you have to read thousands of messages a day, puts a considerable and significant extra strain on the hands and wrists. (It really does make a difference. I used to find my hands ached after reading mail and news for an hour. Then I discovered single key read. Now I just leave my hand resting lightly on the space bar and a slight movement of my fingers is all I need to do the work.) In general, top-posters are often those who haven't examined all the features of their software to find out how to use it most efficiently. They just find something that does the job and stick with it. On a web-based board I use another user had constantly complained that the new board software was much slower to use than the old software, but that was because she was trying to use it in the first way that came to her. When I pointed out the view new messages feature that she'd missed she was instantly converted to the new software. She'd disliked the new software solely because she was using it inefficiently, and that's how most top-posters are: they prefer it not because it's best, but because it works best with the way they read mail. To use the inevitable car analogy, it's like someone learning to drive by trial and error and assuming that the turn indicators are a great way to signal hello to his friends, and then getting all defensive when told that's not what they're for and everyone would get on more efficiently if he'd use them properly. Write top-post or bottom-post makes no difference for me, the problem is that I found bottom-post is harder to read since I will have to skim all original messages before I could read the actual reply. If you have to skim a lot of text then you should be complaining about people not trimming. If someone bottom-posts, leaves pages of lines before their own message, and those lines are not necessary in order to establish the context of their reply, then they're not trimming properly. The purpose of quoting is to establish context for the new message, not to provide a complete archive of the thread. (If someone _wants_ to read the
Re: bullet points and paragraph indenting
Troy Piggins wrote: When I intend to type a list of bullet points, I start with a - . If I type more than one line for that bullet point, the second line is automatically indented 2 spaces, so the text lines up with the first line's text. However if I type more than 2 lines, the third line starts at beginning of line set autoindent Tobia
Re: manual
linda.s wrote: After clicking the user manuual under help, I wonder which command can be used to open these help txt in the manual? Calling up the user manual out of Vim, without using the menu, can be done by typing (in command mode - press ESC many times if you're unsure about which mode you're in): :help user-manualenter for more information about using the help system (one of Vim's greatest features), also check out :help -- Albie Janse van Rensburg ~ http://morph.telspace.co.za Please don't send me any MS Word or Powerpoint attachments unless it's absolutely neccessary - send simply text. http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html Each man is his own prisoner, in solitary confinement for life.
Re: Why bottom-posting is prefered on Vim Mainling List?
Matthew Winn [EMAIL PROTECTED] 写于 2007-05-29 16:10:57: Write top-post or bottom-post makes no difference for me, the problem is that I found bottom-post is harder to read since I will have to skim all original messages before I could read the actual reply. If you have to skim a lot of text then you should be complaining about people not trimming. If someone bottom-posts, leaves pages of lines before their own message, and those lines are not necessary in order to establish the context of their reply, then they're not trimming properly. This get to my point: is it possible to ask EVERYONE to trim correctly? unlikely. See, though I always do trim, I still suffered from those who do not trim and use bottom-posting. If those who do not trim use top-posting, I'll not suffered from the poor trim, and I can do trim myself when I reply the message. Well, since no one could convice another, I'll stick to the community rule. That's the wrong attitude. This is the Internet. You're supposed to insist that you know better than everyone else even if they've been using the Internet for decades, and you have loads of lurkers who support your point of view but they're all too scared of The Clique to speak up, and when you're in charge you'll Show Us All. I feel you're talking friendly and for good. But due to my poor English proficiency I don't seem to catch what you said. The community rule in vim ML is to do bottom-posting, so I stick to the rule even if I don't accept it. What do you meant by wrong attitude? Do you mean I should insist my top-posting when I think it is right? PS: This Off-topic thread has been talked long and I'm sorry to bring excess load to vim mailing list, please mail directly to me if any vimmer friends wants to talk futher about it. Thanks. -- Sincerely, Pan, Shi Zhu. ext: 2606
Re: Why bottom-posting is prefered on Vim Mainling List?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Matthew Winn [EMAIL PROTECTED] 写于 2007-05-29 16:10:57: That's the wrong attitude. This is the Internet. You're supposed to insist that you know better than everyone else even if they've been using the Internet for decades, and you have loads of lurkers who support your point of view but they're all too scared of The Clique to speak up, and when you're in charge you'll Show Us All. I feel you're talking friendly and for good. But due to my poor English proficiency I don't seem to catch what you said. I think your English is good. Even native speakers sometimes have difficulty detecting sarcasm[1], which is notoriously easy to overlook in written language. I'm quite sure Matthew was being sarcastic here, and was actually complimenting your behavior by stating the opposite of the intended meaning (as the Wikipedia article on sarcasm explains it). PS: This Off-topic thread has been talked long and I'm sorry to bring excess load to vim mailing list, please mail directly to me if any vimmer friends wants to talk futher about it. Thanks. I continue to be impressed by the Vim mailing list. Contributors are helpful, willing to spend time answering in detail, and above all very polite. This is one of the nicest top- versus bottom-posting discussions I've seen on a mailing list :-) Michael Henry [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm
Re: Why bottom-posting is prefered on Vim Mainling List?
Christian J. Robinson wrote: On Tue, 29 May 2007, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As far as I know, most e-mail clients defaults to top-posting (i.e. replied message shows before the original message), In my experience it's more that it can be frustrating to try to automatically position the cursor without the software guessing wrong, and it's not helpful for context replying (see below). In other words, it's better to let the user move the cursor where he wants it. I wonder whether the cursor starts at the top of the email message because that's where the trimming would most naturally begin, rather than to facilitate top-posting. Perhaps it's the default deletion point instead of the default insertion point :-) Michael Henry
Re: bullet points and paragraph indenting
* Tobia is quoted my replies are inline below : Troy Piggins wrote: When I intend to type a list of bullet points, I start with a - . If I type more than one line for that bullet point, the second line is automatically indented 2 spaces, so the text lines up with the first line's text. However if I type more than 2 lines, the third line starts at beginning of line set autoindent Thanks. -- Troy Piggins | http://piggo.com/~troy __ ___ RLU#415538\ \ / (_)_ __ ,-O (o-O \ V /| | ' \ O ) //\ O Vim 7.0.22 \_/ |_|_|_|_| `-O V_/_ OOO
Re: Why bottom-posting is prefered on Vim Mainling List?
Michael Henry wrote: [...] I continue to be impressed by the Vim mailing list. Contributors are helpful, willing to spend time answering in detail, and above all very polite. This is one of the nicest top- versus bottom-posting discussions I've seen on a mailing list :-) Michael Henry Yes indeed. In many a ML/NG I have known, this discussion would have long before degenerated into throwing animal names. Best regards, Tony. -- About the time we think we can make ends meet, somebody moves the ends. -- Herbert Hoover
Re: Why bottom-posting is prefered on Vim Mainling List?
On Tue, 29 May 2007 06:25:40 -0400, Michael Henry [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Matthew Winn [EMAIL PROTECTED] 2007-05-29 16:10:57: That's the wrong attitude. This is the Internet. You're supposed to insist that you know better than everyone else even if they've been using the Internet for decades, and you have loads of lurkers who support your point of view but they're all too scared of The Clique to speak up, and when you're in charge you'll Show Us All. I feel you're talking friendly and for good. But due to my poor English proficiency I don't seem to catch what you said. I think your English is good. Even native speakers sometimes have difficulty detecting sarcasm[1], which is notoriously easy to overlook in written language. I'm quite sure Matthew was being sarcastic here, and was actually complimenting your behavior by stating the opposite of the intended meaning (as the Wikipedia article on sarcasm explains it). I was; it hadn't occurred to me that it might not be clear to everyone whose first language isn't English. The point I was making is that the Vim list is civilised about discussions like this, unlike most places. I've seen similar debates elsewhere where the top-poster's response has been along the lines of This is my Internet on my computer; I'm going to behave how I want and I don't care how much trouble I cause for other people. -- Matthew Winn
Re: VimWiki - Page Titles
Sebastian Menge wrote: Put the list of 1500 tip titles in one file, one title per line. Then edit that file to clean up the titles. Then run a script to rename each tip to match the cleaned-up title. One idea was that the editing can be done on the wiki. Just edit the Errornames page :-) Neat, but please give explicit directions if that's what you want. There's not much point in my editing the titles if you meanwhile are planning to use some other scheme. Also, we (actually, you, because it looks like you're doing all the work:), need to resolve the issue of exactly what is allowed in a title, and we should agree on some general guidelines. I think the Wikipedia style of prominently saying something like this page should be titled xxx but due to technical restrictions we can't do that is too ponderous (although reasonable in their context). Maybe we could have something more informal (if scriptable). For example: tip 249 in your errornames might be: Title = C - Quickly insert precompiler directives [I'm not very happy with this wording] But first line of the tip might say: C/C++: Quickly insert #if 0 - #endif around block of code stable regexes for 1500 pages are not easy to do I'm glad it's you and not me! It's hardly reasonable to come up with one script that correctly formats all of the existing pages. I imagine a fair bit of manual tweaking will be needed. If you gave me a couple of days over a weekend when it's quiet here, I might be able to do a fair bit (I sent over 260 typos to Bram which he incorporated in the 7.1 release, so I can occassionally cope with tediousness). OTOH we can all do that after the initial import. I can download all 1500 tips from wikia, and determine if any still have html (what will wikia do to html tags??), and fix them then. John
Re: VimWiki - Page Titles
Am Dienstag, den 29.05.2007, 21:03 +1000 schrieb John Beckett: Sebastian Menge wrote: Put the list of 1500 tip titles in one file, one title per line. Then edit that file to clean up the titles. Then run a script to rename each tip to match the cleaned-up title. One idea was that the editing can be done on the wiki. Just edit the Errornames page :-) Neat, but please give explicit directions if that's what you want. There's not much point in my editing the titles if you meanwhile are planning to use some other scheme. Forget that, most problems came from slashes which could not be handled by wikipediafs. I fixed that. Other special chars get replaced by __HASH__ or __BRACKET__ and the like. Ugly, I know. Also, we (actually, you, because it looks like you're doing all the work:), need to resolve the issue of exactly what is allowed in a title, and we should agree on some general guidelines. I think the Wikipedia style of prominently saying something like this page should be titled xxx but due to technical restrictions we can't do that is too ponderous (although reasonable in their context). Maybe we could have something more informal (if scriptable). For example: tip 249 in your errornames might be: Title = C - Quickly insert precompiler directives [I'm not very happy with this wording] But first line of the tip might say: C/C++: Quickly insert #if 0 - #endif around block of code I decided for myself that I dont wont to do editorial work on the tips or comments. So some pages will look ugly and have to be repaired manually later. But its a wiki: I hope that will evolve naturally. stable regexes for 1500 pages are not easy to do I'm glad it's you and not me! It's hardly reasonable to come up As you perhaps guessed its a bit of fun for me :-) I'm learning python, I deepen my regex understanding etc. Its a nice study :-) See my next post for details ... S.
VimWiki - First Beta
Hi all
Access the first beta here: http://tinyurl.com/34kfj5
I did a lot of experiments over the weekend. I mostly used a local
mediawiki-installation and even from localhost to localhost a full
import takes about an hour. Im excited to learn how long it will take to
import to a remote mediawiki ...
Some notes about it:
1) references to other tips get automatically replaced like in
http://tinyurl.com/34kfj5/VimTip123
2) references to the vim help get replaced by links to the
vim-doc.sf.net as in http://tinyurl.com/34kfj5/VimTip26
3) the following chars are forbidden in titles : [] {} # | +
These get replaced by __HASH__ __PLUS__ and the like. This is ugly but i
dont want to do any editorial work on the articles now.
4) The formatting of the tips and comments gets broken fairly often.
This is because original tips are verbatim and could contain wiki-markup
(eg. one space indent is interpreted as verbatim by the wiki or the vim
command '[[' starts a wiki tag)
5) we definitely need to edit the tips later on. I wont tweak the script
up to infinity. Some things are easier repaired by Hand (e.g.
http://tinyurl.com/34kfj5/VimTip7 )
My host is only accessible until 17h MESZ (thats 3h from now on). Then
i'll be offline.
Please give feedback!
Sebastian.
Re: Why bottom-posting is prefered on Vim Mainling List?
Matthew Winn wrote: [...] I've seen similar debates elsewhere where the top-poster's response has been along the lines of This is my Internet on my computer; I'm going to behave how I want and I don't care how much trouble I cause for other people. :D :D :D Best regards, Tony. -- Executive ability is deciding quickly and getting somebody else to do the work. -- John G. Pollard
AW: Tear off this menu in messages-history
Yongwei Wu wrote: Incidentally I find a lot of entries of Tear off this menu when I issue :messages. It turns out you may add such messages to the message history any time you open the menu, esp. when by using a keyboard shortcut. I am wondering these kind of messages should be echo'd instead of echomsg'd. Your opinions? I use GVIM 7.1 on Windows XP. I don't have an answer. I also have been wondering about these entries, also in gvim 6.x. [Win XP] Joachim ### This message has been scanned by F-Secure Anti-Virus for Microsoft Exchange. For more information, connect to http://www.f-secure.com/
Re: Why bottom-posting is prefered on Vim Mainling List?
On 5/28/07, Dave Land [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Folks, In the spirit contrarianism, I'm going to top-post now. Actually, both parts of Mark's post below were of a _third_ variety: interlinear comments. I disagree. Interlinear is not third variety, but a subcategory of either top-posting, or of bottom-posting. To make it clearer: If someone A places his comment *below* the quote he is commenting on, this is bottom-posting, essentially -- although split in pieces. If B places his comments right *above* quotes he is commenting on, this is variant of bottom-posting. When you are commenting on a single quote of somebody, then what you call intelineated reduces to pure top-posting or bottom posting. There is yet another schol of responding, which is to erase all previous material completely and include only the response in the body. It can be summarised as you remember what you wrote, didn't you ? If you don't remember, it's not *my* problem BTW since nobody interlineates his comments *above* the quotes he's commenting on, I think this makes another argument for bottom-posting. Yakov
Re: Why bottom-posting is prefered on Vim Mainling List?
On 5/28/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As far as I know, most e-mail clients defaults to top-posting some email clients have an option. But it does not help much. Top-vs-bottom depends on the specific mailing list. If I am on mailing list X which has convention of bottom-posting and also on mailing list Y which has convention of top-posting, then single option in mail client is not much helpful. gmail doesn't have this option at all, but I dont feel invonvenienced. Yakov
Re: Why bottom-posting is prefered on Vim Mainling List?
Yakov Lerner wrote: On 5/28/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As far as I know, most e-mail clients defaults to top-posting some email clients have an option. But it does not help much. Top-vs-bottom depends on the specific mailing list. If I am on mailing list X which has convention of bottom-posting and also on mailing list Y which has convention of top-posting, then single option in mail client is not much helpful. gmail doesn't have this option at all, but I dont feel invonvenienced. Yakov Some mailers, such as Thunderbird which I use, have a thing named identities: I can set one or more identities for a each mail or news account, and quoting preference (quote or not, and put the cursor above or below the quote) is among the options I can set for each identity. Of course, webmail accounts use browsers, not email clients, which means the webmail provider makes its own rules and the customer has no choice of interface. (As you can guess, I don't like webmail.) Best regards, Tony. -- A Mormon is a man that has the bad taste and the religion to do what a good many other people are restrained from doing by conscientious scruples and the police. -- Mr. Dooley
Re: VimWiki - First Beta
On 5/29/07, Sebastian Menge [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all Access the first beta here: http://tinyurl.com/34kfj5 Where can I see the recently posted/by recency view ? In other words, what's used for RSS ? Yakov
mbox format archive?
hi i'd like to get as large an archive as possible of this list in mbox format. Looking around I don't see any archive in mbox format surprisingly, does anyone know if this exists? thanks!
Re: mbox format archive?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: hi i'd like to get as large an archive as possible of this list in mbox format. Looking around I don't see any archive in mbox format surprisingly, does anyone know if this exists? thanks! I've been archiving the vim, vim-dev and vim-multibyte lists locally, ever since I switched over to Linux. The file is 19 meg by now. Shall I send it to you as attachment by private email? Best regards, Tony. -- GALAHAD: Camelot ... LAUNCELOT: Camelot ... GAWAIN:It's only a model. Monty Python and the Holy Grail PYTHON (MONTY) PICTURES LTD
Re: mbox format archive?
steven smith wrote: A.J.Mechelynck wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [...] I've been archiving the vim, vim-dev and vim-multibyte lists locally, ever since I switched over to Linux. The file is 19 meg by now. Shall I send it to you as attachment by private email? Please make sure you strip out any email addresses before you do that. Thank you Steve S. No. Either you get it as it came through the list, or you don't; I'm not gonna lose timeeffort at editing a file which I'm providing as is as a convenience to some other Vimmer. Email addresses were sent to the list, so what's the matter? Best regards, Tony. -- The opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth. -- Bohr
Re: mbox format archive?
thank you! That would be perfect. If it's not too much trouble I wonder if you could send four 5 meg files, you can split easily with: split --verbose -b 500 Mboxfile 'vim.' I just tested that I can receive those, but a 19 M file will get a reject. if it's a hassle never mind I don't wish to trouble you. thank you. Arnold A.J.Mechelynck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: hi i'd like to get as large an archive as possible of this list in mbox format. Looking around I don't see any archive in mbox format surprisingly, does anyone know if this exists? thanks! I've been archiving the vim, vim-dev and vim-multibyte lists locally, ever since I switched over to Linux. The file is 19 meg by now. Shall I send it to you as attachment by private email? Best regards, Tony. -- GALAHAD: Camelot ... LAUNCELOT: Camelot ... GAWAIN:It's only a model. Monty Python and the Holy Grail PYTHON (MONTY) PICTURES LTD
Re: VimWiki - First Beta
Am Dienstag, den 29.05.2007, 02:45 -1100 schrieb Yakov Lerner: On 5/29/07, Sebastian Menge [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all Access the first beta here: http://tinyurl.com/34kfj5 Where can I see the recently posted/by recency view ? In other words, what's used for RSS ? It's a quick and dirty installation on my machine, probably RSS is an extension that is not installed. That will change on vim.wikia.com. Recent Changes in HTML-Form can be found here: http://tinyurl.com/34kfj5/index.php/Special:Recentchanges Seb.
Re: VimWiki - First Beta
At first blush, it looks really good. I'm making a httrack copy of it
right now since I know that it won't be up much longer. Later I can
give you a better review :)
Great work!
Tom Purl
On Tue, May 29, 2007 7:04 am, Sebastian Menge wrote:
Hi all
Access the first beta here: http://tinyurl.com/34kfj5
I did a lot of experiments over the weekend. I mostly used a local
mediawiki-installation and even from localhost to localhost a full
import takes about an hour. Im excited to learn how long it will take to
import to a remote mediawiki ...
Some notes about it:
1) references to other tips get automatically replaced like in
http://tinyurl.com/34kfj5/VimTip123
2) references to the vim help get replaced by links to the
vim-doc.sf.net as in http://tinyurl.com/34kfj5/VimTip26
3) the following chars are forbidden in titles : [] {} # | +
These get replaced by __HASH__ __PLUS__ and the like. This is ugly but i
dont want to do any editorial work on the articles now.
4) The formatting of the tips and comments gets broken fairly often.
This is because original tips are verbatim and could contain wiki-markup
(eg. one space indent is interpreted as verbatim by the wiki or the vim
command '[[' starts a wiki tag)
5) we definitely need to edit the tips later on. I wont tweak the script
up to infinity. Some things are easier repaired by Hand (e.g.
http://tinyurl.com/34kfj5/VimTip7 )
My host is only accessible until 17h MESZ (thats 3h from now on). Then
i'll be offline.
Please give feedback!
Sebastian.
Re: VimWiki - First Beta
On Tue, May 29, 2007 9:53 am, Tom Purl wrote: On Tue, May 29, 2007 8:45 am, Yakov Lerner wrote: On 5/29/07, Sebastian Menge [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all Access the first beta here: http://tinyurl.com/34kfj5 Where can I see the recently posted/by recency view ? In other words, what's used for RSS ? I don't think that Mediawiki has this feature by default. Traditionally, I think you're supposed to explicitly watch a page and then you need to manually check your watched pages list. It's not the most efficient process in the world I know, but that's the way it's done most of the time. Wait, here's a better answer. It looks like both wikia and wikibooks offers an rss feed of the recent changes page. Since we have our own wiki instance on wikia, the recent changes page on has vim-related changes. On the wikibooks page, it appears that every single change to en.wikibooks.org is recorded on that page. This may be something to think about when we eventually choose our wiki host.
Re: VimWiki - First Beta
Am Dienstag, den 29.05.2007, 09:57 -0500 schrieb Tom Purl: At first blush, it looks really good. I'm making a httrack copy of it right now since I know that it won't be up much longer. No need to do that, ill leave the machine in the office, so everyone can test all night long :-) But please dont spam my machine ... ;-) Sebastian.
Re: VimWiki - First Beta
Hi Sebastian,
On 5/29/07, Sebastian Menge [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hi all
Access the first beta here: http://tinyurl.com/34kfj5
I did a lot of experiments over the weekend. I mostly used a local
mediawiki-installation and even from localhost to localhost a full
import takes about an hour. Im excited to learn how long it will take to
import to a remote mediawiki ...
The Vim tips wiki page looks great. Nice work.
The contents of the following converted wiki tip page doesn't look
correct (a sample
page I looked at):
http://ls10pc13.cs.uni-dortmund.de/mediawiki/index.php/Computing_a_sum_of_numbers_in_vim
Maybe these kinds of problems can be corrected only by manual editing
by the Vim community.
Is it possible to display a list of recently updated/posted tips in a separate
page?
- Yegappan
Some notes about it:
1) references to other tips get automatically replaced like in
http://tinyurl.com/34kfj5/VimTip123
2) references to the vim help get replaced by links to the
vim-doc.sf.net as in http://tinyurl.com/34kfj5/VimTip26
3) the following chars are forbidden in titles : [] {} # | +
These get replaced by __HASH__ __PLUS__ and the like. This is ugly but i
dont want to do any editorial work on the articles now.
4) The formatting of the tips and comments gets broken fairly often.
This is because original tips are verbatim and could contain wiki-markup
(eg. one space indent is interpreted as verbatim by the wiki or the vim
command '[[' starts a wiki tag)
5) we definitely need to edit the tips later on. I wont tweak the script
up to infinity. Some things are easier repaired by Hand (e.g.
http://tinyurl.com/34kfj5/VimTip7 )
My host is only accessible until 17h MESZ (thats 3h from now on). Then
i'll be offline.
Please give feedback!
Sebastian.
Re: VimWiki - First Beta
On Tue, May 29, 2007 8:45 am, Yakov Lerner wrote: On 5/29/07, Sebastian Menge [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all Access the first beta here: http://tinyurl.com/34kfj5 Where can I see the recently posted/by recency view ? In other words, what's used for RSS ? I don't think that Mediawiki has this feature by default. Traditionally, I think you're supposed to explicitly watch a page and then you need to manually check your watched pages list. It's not the most efficient process in the world I know, but that's the way it's done most of the time. HTH, Tom Purl
Re: VimWiki - First Beta
Sebastian Menge wrote: Am Dienstag, den 29.05.2007, 02:45 -1100 schrieb Yakov Lerner: On 5/29/07, Sebastian Menge [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all Access the first beta here: http://tinyurl.com/34kfj5 Where can I see the recently posted/by recency view ? In other words, what's used for RSS ? It's a quick and dirty installation on my machine, probably RSS is an extension that is not installed. That will change on vim.wikia.com. Recent Changes in HTML-Form can be found here: http://tinyurl.com/34kfj5/index.php/Special:Recentchanges Seb. That URL is broken; use the following: http://tinyurl.com/34kfj5/Special:Recentchanges otherwise index.php gets duplicated, leading to Page not found, do you wish to create it? Best regards, Tony. -- $100 invested at 7% interest for 100 years will become $100,000, at which time it will be worth absolutely nothing. -- Lazarus Long, Time Enough for Love
RE: Why bottom-posting is prefered on Vim Mainling List?
An explaination why top-post is easier to read: When I am viewing an e-mail, the reply is the main part of the message and I usually quite aware of what the original post is. So I should be able to see the reply when I open the message. And if the message is edited down correctly, it likely will be. If the message is bottom post, I will have to scroll down and down to find where the author really start to say something. If the reply starts on line 1000 while the messages ends on line 2000 it will be quite difficult to know line 1000 is the start of reply and I should read from that line. Uhhh, 1000 lines of quoted-text needs some *serious* editing. I try to only include directly-relevant sections of text; if someone needs to see all 1000 previous messages to follow the thread, he's welcome to go and get those messages. Top quoting is okay for things that don't require any brainpower, like Okay, sounds good. I was in the mood for pizza, if you wouldn't mind. Yeah, I was a little hungry. Where do you want to go? Anyone up for lunch? and that's it. Look at all the reply/text/reply/text/reply/text sections in just *this* email. Were you asking a technical question of multiple parts, it would be easy to follow each little subthread in the email. With top-posting, I'm *NOT* going to constantly scroll down then back up to make sure I addressed each and every issue. (Not intended to sound snarky or addressed to you specifically, but to The Reader in general...) Quite simply, if it's too much of a bother for you to properly format email, then it's too much of a bother for *me* to answer completely. It's that simple. Worse, you don't know which bundled-together paragraph in the top-posted reply belongs to which section in the quoted text below, and that's *if* I choose to address more than one issue in my reply. If I see that it would require replies to multiple sections of quoted text, I'm more likely than not to get frustrated with how much extra work would be required to plan my reply to make it clear for you to read (lacking any locational context as to what part of the reply belongs with which section in the quoted text), and simply not reply at all. While for the top-post, I know the first line is the start of reply and I can read the reply without any difficulty. In an active forum, threads grown long quickly, with top-post, we focus on what the message saids and waste no time. And if 90% of the entire message is quoted text that's never even looked at, why include it at all? Again, that's the laziness of peoples' refusal to properly edit their replies. Write top-post or bottom-post makes no difference for me, the problem is that I found bottom-post is harder to read since I will have to skim all original messages before I could read the actual reply. Again, it's a lack of editing (ie, laziness) that creates this problem, *NOT* bottom-quoting in general. Well, since no one could convice another, I'll stick to the community rule. That'd work...
Re: mbox format archive?
On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 04:48:35PM +0200, A.J.Mechelynck wrote: Other lists I've been on save archives with no addresses or addresses mangled I think. If you look at http://marc.info/?l=vim-devr=1w=2, the addresses are indeed mangled, but in such a way that anyone with two brain cells and perl interpreter can demangle them. Maybe it's easier for a spammer to join the list and talk to people, hoping that someone will present him the archives on a silver plate. Maybe not. Yeti -- http://gwyddion.net/
Re: mbox format archive?
Ali Polatel wrote: A.J.Mechelynck [EMAIL PROTECTED] yazmış: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: hi i'd like to get as large an archive as possible of this list in mbox format. Looking around I don't see any archive in mbox format surprisingly, does anyone know if this exists? thanks! I've been archiving the vim, vim-dev and vim-multibyte lists locally, ever since I switched over to Linux. The file is 19 meg by now. Shall I send it to you as attachment by private email? Hi, I was reading the vim mailing list today and saw this post :) I would be very happy if you can send me the archives of vim and vim-dev when you have time.. thanks! Hmm... This post of mine seems to be eliciting two kinds of reactions: Me too, me too and Don't, you fool, he may be a spammer harvesting addresses. I think I'll leave it on the backburner for a while, waiting for the situation to clarify. Comments, anyone? Best regards, Tony. -- We're knights of the round table We dance whene'er we're able We do routines and chorus scenes With footwork impeccable. We dine well here in Camelot We eat ham and jam and spam a lot. Monty Python and the Holy Grail PYTHON (MONTY) PICTURES LTD
Re[2]: mbox format archive?
On Tue, 29 May 2007, A.J.Mechelynck apparently wrote: Hmm... This post of mine seems to be eliciting two kinds of reactions: Me too, me too and Don't, you fool, he may be a spammer harvesting addresses. I think I'll leave it on the backburner for a while, waiting for the situation to clarify. Comments, anyone? - Probability that this is a spammer request: approx 0. Old addresses aren't much use. Spammers aren't so polite. Etc. - To make it zero, see if he has ever posted to the list... - sed s/@[A-Za-z]\+/@xxx/g archivefile archivefile2send Cheers, Alan Isaac
Re: Re[2]: mbox format archive?
On 5/29/07, Alan G Isaac [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 29 May 2007, A.J.Mechelynck apparently wrote: Hmm... This post of mine seems to be eliciting two kinds of reactions: Me too, me too and Don't, you fool, he may be a spammer harvesting addresses. I think I'll leave it on the backburner for a while, waiting for the situation to clarify. Comments, anyone? - Probability that this is a spammer request: approx 0. Old addresses aren't much use. Spammers aren't so polite. Etc. - To make it zero, see if he has ever posted to the list... - sed s/@[A-Za-z]\+/@xxx/g archivefile archivefile2send Cheers, Alan Isaac The interesting thing is that the guy who is in question of being a spammer is the same guy who asked for safeguards against that type of thing... -- -fREW
Re: mbox format archive?
Ehehe never mind about this, I had no idea this would stir everyone up. I consider it fairly normal for list archives to be offered in mbox format (ex. Lua and Template Toolkit and 5 million others) and like to keep them around, since I can just drop them right into local folders in thunderbird for searching. Especially handy for offline, and for not having to rely on someone's frontend to search the archives for difficult to find things, that I know are buried someplace in the archive. Looking at the commands I can issue to the listmanager, looks like I can whip out something that will make me an archive so all good. thanks for your offer though AJ. A.
Re: mbox format archive?
Tim Chase wrote: Hmm... This post of mine seems to be eliciting two kinds of reactions: Me too, me too and Don't, you fool, he may be a spammer harvesting addresses. I think I'll leave it on the backburner for a while, waiting for the situation to clarify. Comments, anyone? This is the vim list, after all...surely a quick regexp to mangle/hide the email adderesses could be applied across any such files? I don't know the inner workings of mbox (all in one file? multiple files in one directory?), but some short work with argdo should take care of it :) mbox is (IIUC) the format used by Thunderbird, Outlook Express (but not Outlook), and many other mailers for what they misleadingly call email folders. Each folder is a single file (from the OS's viewpoint). Email headers are included. Any munging I would do would be applied equally to headers and body. sh$ cd /path/to/vim/mbox sh$ mkdir ../munged sh$ cp * ../munged sh$ cd ../munged sh$ vim * :set hidden :argdo %s/[EMAIL PROTECTED])+/\=substitute(substitute(submatch(0), '\.', ' [DOT] ', 'g'), '@', ' [AT] NoSpAm.', 'g')/g :wqa sh$ cd .. sh$ tar cvfz vim_ml.tgz munged It may mung a bit more or less redacting than one actually wants, but for the most part, it should stave off the fears that the OP is a spam harvester. My inkling is that such is not the case...there are a lot more fertile grounds for harvesting addresses than personally asking for mbox files in a place as niche as the vim ML. And if targeting the mass audience, I suspect they would as for an Outlook/OE .PST file instead of mbox :) My Turing-test-o-meter is registering fairly high on the it's a human scale. :) -tim Best regards, Tony. -- If the colleges were better, if they really had it, you would need to get the police at the gates to keep order in the inrushing multitude. See in college how we thwart the natural love of learning by leaving the natural method of teaching what each wishes to learn, and insisting that you shall learn what you have no taste or capacity for. The college, which should be a place of delightful labor, is made odious and unhealthy, and the young men are tempted to frivolous amusements to rally their jaded spirits. I would have the studies elective. Scholarship is to be created not by compulsion, but by awakening a pure interest in knowledge. The wise instructor accomplishes this by opening to his pupils precisely the attractions the study has for himself. The marking is a system for schools, not for the college; for boys, not for men; and it is an ungracious work to put on a professor. -- Ralph Waldo Emerson
Re: mbox format archive?
fREW wrote: [...] The interesting thing is that the guy who is in question of being a spammer is the same guy who asked for safeguards against that type of thing... no, he isn't; it was requested by [EMAIL PROTECTED] (and later by Ali Polatel), and warned against by steven smith. If my reply to the latter gave the (false) impression that he was the same as the former, it may be because I was a little confused at the time. Best regards, Tony. -- It was a virgin forest, a place where the Hand of Man had never set foot.
Re: mbox format archive?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ehehe never mind about this, I had no idea this would stir everyone up. I consider it fairly normal for list archives to be offered in mbox format (ex. Lua and Template Toolkit and 5 million others) and like to keep them around, since I can just drop them right into local folders in thunderbird for searching. Especially handy for offline, and for not having to rely on someone's frontend to search the archives for difficult to find things, that I know are buried someplace in the archive. Looking at the commands I can issue to the listmanager, looks like I can whip out something that will make me an archive so all good. thanks for your offer though AJ. A. My pleasure. Best regards, Tony. -- Experience is something you don't get until just after you need it. -- Olivier
Re: mbox format archive?
On 5/29/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ehehe never mind about this, I had no idea this would stir everyone up. I consider it fairly normal for list archives to be offered in mbox format (ex. Lua and Template Toolkit and 5 million others) and like to keep them around, since I can just drop them right into local folders in thunderbird for searching. Especially handy for offline, and for not having to rely on someone's frontend to search the archives for difficult to find things, that I know are buried someplace in the archive. Looking at the commands I can issue to the listmanager, looks like I can whip out something that will make me an archive so all good. thanks for your offer though AJ. A. I don't think you are a spammer/bot! :-) -- -fREW
Re: Why bottom-posting is prefered on Vim Mainling List?
Op dinsdag 29 mei 2007, schreef Gene Kwiecinski: Write top-post or bottom-post makes no difference for me, the problem is that I found bottom-post is harder to read since I will have to skim all original messages before I could read the actual reply. Again, it's a lack of editing (ie, laziness) that creates this problem, *NOT* bottom-quoting in general. Since you yourself are too lazy to fix your own quoted text, may i suggest http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/outlook-quotefix/ ? (other people using Outlook Express can use http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/oe-quotefix/) The above text, broken (even more broken) by my client (which was expected), should've looked more like: quote Write top-post or bottom-post makes no difference for me, the problem is that I found bottom-post is harder to read since I will have to skim all original messages before I could read the actual reply. Again, it's a lack of editing (ie, laziness) that creates this problem, *NOT* bottom-quoting in general. /quote Peter Palm
Re: mbox format archive?
fREW wrote: On 5/29/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ehehe never mind about this, I had no idea this would stir everyone up. I consider it fairly normal for list archives to be offered in mbox format (ex. Lua and Template Toolkit and 5 million others) and like to keep them around, since I can just drop them right into local folders in thunderbird for searching. Especially handy for offline, and for not having to rely on someone's frontend to search the archives for difficult to find things, that I know are buried someplace in the archive. Looking at the commands I can issue to the listmanager, looks like I can whip out something that will make me an archive so all good. thanks for your offer though AJ. A. I don't think you are a spammer/bot! :-) Certainly not a bot. A spammer -- I don't think so either. Thinking back on it, I think it would be better if aff can get it by querying the listbot, because from time to time I've been moving private mail by Vimmers to that same archive folder. Best regards, Tony. -- Festivity Level 1: Your guests are chatting amiably with each other, admiring your Christmas-tree ornaments, singing carols around the upright piano, sipping at their drinks and nibbling hors d'oeuvres. Festivity Level 2: Your guests are talking loudly -- sometimes to each other, and sometimes to nobody at all, rearranging your Christmas-tree ornaments, singing I Gotta Be Me around the upright piano, gulping their drinks and wolfing down hors d'oeuvres. Festivity Level 3: Your guests are arguing violently with inanimate objects, singing I can't get no satisfaction, gulping down other peoples' drinks, wolfing down Christmas tree ornaments and placing hors d'oeuvres in the upright piano to see what happens when the little hammers strike. Festivity Level 4: Your guests, hors d'oeuvres smeared all over their naked bodies are performing a ritual dance around the burning Christmas tree. The piano is missing. You want to keep your party somewhere around level 3, unless you rent your home and own Firearms, in which case you can go to level 4. The best way to get to level 3 is egg-nog.
local diffs?
Hello, I'm looking for a quick and easy way to compare two pieces of code inside a single file. I find it to be quite a common use case to compare two functions or code block to see if they are similar enough to be refactored out to a single function. / Jonas
Re: local diffs?
I'm looking for a quick and easy way to compare two pieces of code inside a single file. I find it to be quite a common use case to compare two functions or code block to see if they are similar enough to be refactored out to a single function. I've done this occasionally, and use the following method: 1) yank the 1st block 2) create a new window and paste the block 3) execute :diffthis 4) go back to the original window and yank the 2nd block 5) jump back to the diff'ed window and :vnew to get a vert window 6) paste the 2nd yanked block 7) execute :diffthis on the 2nd window Given that there's no easy way to select two disjoint blocks in vim, there's not much way to automate this unless you resort to convention...something like using a fixed set of registers (as in the example below) or marks. 1) yank the 1st block into register a 2) yank the 2nd block into register b 3) :new 4) paste register a 5) :diffthis 6) :vnew 7) paste register b 8) diffthis Steps #3-8 could be mapped, using the convention of those two given registers: :nnoremap f4 :new|0put a|diffthis|vnew|0put b|diffthiscr or whatever registers you desire. -tim
RE: Why bottom-posting is prefered on Vim Mainling List?
Write top-post or bottom-post makes no difference for me, the problem Since you yourself are too lazy to fix your own quoted text, may i Uhhh, that's not *my* doing, as the text gets resplit/rewrapped somewhere else along the line. About the only thing I *could* do is manually split it shorter than the default (whatever that is). Want me to show you an actual screencap of my reply as it went out from here?
Re: Why bottom-posting is prefered on Vim Mainling List?
Sounds very archaic, but if I read mails with dumb terminals (baud rate 2400 bps), and if I am not familiar with the subject of the thread, top posting would be painful. It would especially be so to whoever has the honor of answering most of the questions on the list... But other than that, most of the times, I find bottom posting more inefficient. It feels like when I grade a student's report where the questions are mixed with answers and they are not quite visually separated. (On pine, they are not...) When I know what the question was, I come to wish that I had answers at the top, rather than having to page down several times to read the whole. At the same time, sometimes a nicely matched q a sorted in order saves me time... especially when I search old archives. Regards, Ben K. Developer http://benix.tamu.edu
Re: Why bottom-posting is prefered on Vim Mainling List?
A slightly OT note, which amazingly is more IT than the thread itself Uhhh, that's not my doing, as the text gets resplit/rewrapped somewhere else along the line. About the only thing I could do is manually split it shorter than the default (whatever that is) Reformatting the quoted blocks (gq} or visual+gq as you like best) while you're formatting your email works quite well. Tobia
RE: Why bottom-posting is prefered on Vim Mainling List?
Uhhh, that's not my doing, as the text gets resplit/rewrapped somewhere else along the line. About the only thing I could do is manually split it shorter than the default (whatever that is) Reformatting the quoted blocks (gq} or visual+gq as you like best) while you're formatting your email works quite well. Uhh, I *do*. gqap, actually (iirr). (Learned that trick here, in fact.) That's what I mean by manually, vs letting the mailer itself autowrap. Thing is, if I don't know what's the default max-width of v.o's messages, being over by just 1 char will still do the long/short/long/short/... rewraps. Point being that it's not on this end where the rewrap gets done, but somewhere on the 'vim.org' side, either translating incoming email to whatever margins, etc., it prefers, else reformatting it somewhat when sending it back out to the list. I've had private/offline correspondence with quite many people on this list, have seen my own replies echoed back, and have yet to see this wrapping issue apply to any off-list items. Given that I'm stuck with LookOut here, I have to cp (^A^X from LO) to 'vim' (shift-ins), then :g/^ /s// :g/^./s// gqap(per paragraph, iirr) then cp it back to LO's draft before sending. Crude, but more or less effective.
Re: Why bottom-posting is prefered on Vim Mainling List?
Am 29.05.2007 um 12:29 schrieb Michael Henry: I wonder whether the cursor starts at the top of the email message because that's where the trimming would most naturally begin, rather than to facilitate top-posting. Perhaps it's the default deletion point instead of the default insertion point :-) That's why Vim starts in normal mode, not in insert mode. Axel, on topic for once
Re: Why bottom-posting is prefered on Vim Mainling List?
Am 29.05.2007 um 05:00 schrieb [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hi vimmers: Slightly Off-topic, but I'm still wondering why bottom-posting is prefered on Vim Mainling List. As far as I know, most e-mail clients defaults to top-posting (i.e. replied message shows before the original message), So far I have only met one e-mail client that forces the user to top-post. Its use leads to page long full quotes even after a few iterations. Since you top-post, you never see what has already accumulated. and I personally feel top-posting much much easier to read than bottom-posting. This only works for the One question, one answer type of mails. Even in this short answer there are two statements to which I reply. And I don't even answer your original question, since you got sufficient replies already. And now the same as a top-post for comparison: So far I have only met one e-mail client that forces the user to top-post. Its use leads to page long full quotes even after a few iterations. Since you top-post, you never see what has already accumulated. This only works for the One question, one answer type of mails. Even in this short answer there are two statements to which I reply. And I don't even answer your original question, since you got sufficient replies already. Hi vimmers: Slightly Off-topic, but I'm still wondering why bottom-posting is prefered on Vim Mainling List. As far as I know, most e-mail clients defaults to top-posting (i.e. replied message shows before the original message), and I personally feel top-posting much much easier to read than bottom-posting. Axel
Re: Why bottom-posting is prefered on Vim Mainling List?
Hi! On Tue, 29 May 2007, Axel Kielhorn wrote: Am 29.05.2007 um 05:00 schrieb [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Slightly Off-topic, but I'm still wondering why bottom-posting is prefered on Vim Mainling List. As far as I know, most e-mail clients defaults to top-posting (i.e. replied message shows before the original message), So far I have only met one e-mail client that forces the user to top-post. Its use leads to page long full quotes even after a few iterations. Since you top-post, you never see what has already accumulated. Also it encourages lazyness: by not needing to find the spot where one would answer the original poster. If I can't even be bothered to find said spot, why should I trim what's irrelevant? and I personally feel top-posting much much easier to read than bottom-posting. This only works for the One question, one answer type of mails. And even then, I find it very counter-intuitive. Even if there's just one question, one answer, it's order is reversed. One might see that differently in those cultures, where text is written from the bottom up. Not that I'd know of such a culture. Regards, Tobias PS: On another note: how do you (as in y'all) feel about somebody re-arranging your text when quoting you? I guess the simple parts (everything for example gw} does) are okay with just about everyone. But what about the order of points made? -- In the future, everyone will be anonymous for 15 minutes.
flist tree question
Hi! I am a newbie at using gvim. I am using gvim ver 6.4 on linux. I wanted to set up the flist tree on my machine. Dr Chip initially wrote this script. The explaination is at the following site mysite.verizon.net/astronaut/vim/index.html under title C/C++ Functions: prototypes, hints, etc. I have downloaded the flist.tar.gz file. When I untar it I see a lot of C code which I compiled and got an executable flist. Now at this point I have no idea how to incorporate it in my gvim. What do I need to do to set this up. Dr Chip was talking about a FlistTree.vim but I can't seem to find it anywhere. This seems like a cool concept that we can get a function tree. Your help is greatly appreciated. -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/flist-tree-question-tf3836009.html#a10860821 Sent from the Vim - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Re: Why bottom-posting is prefered on Vim Mainling List?
On 5/29/07, Ben Kim [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sounds very archaic, but if I read mails with dumb terminals (baud rate 2400 bps), and if I am not familiar with the subject of the thread, top posting would be painful. It would especially be so to whoever has the honor of answering most of the questions on the list... But other than that, most of the times, I find bottom posting more inefficient. It feels like when I grade a student's report where the questions are mixed with answers and they are not quite visually separated. (On pine, they are not...) When I know what the question was, I come to wish that I had answers at the top, rather than having to page down several times to read the whole. At the same time, sometimes a nicely matched q a sorted in order saves me time... especially when I search old archives. You just illustrated the 3rd posting style, the clear-posting style. It has certain advantage over top-posting and bottom-posting. Clear-posting is fundamentally clean, space-efficient and free of top/bottom biases. But wrt top-posting vs bottom-posting. There is additional parameter that affect readabiltiy even more than top/bottom. It's number of past accumulated tails that you leave in the quotes. Some people do not cut away any past tails. After 4-5 levels of nesed quoting, this becomes unreadable both in top-style and in bottom-style. I cut away all but last 3 level of past quotes, and then I shorten them by dropping the greetings, the signature and irrelevant part. Shortness of quotes makes for for readabilty of the response. Multiple levels of fossilization make replies less readable, not the top/bottom difference. Yakov
Re: Why bottom-posting is prefered on Vim Mainling List?
On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 09:14:43PM +0200, Tobias Klausmann wrote: PS: On another note: how do you (as in y'all) feel about somebody re-arranging your text when quoting you? I guess the simple parts (everything for example gw} does) are okay with just about everyone. But what about the order of points made? Anything that improves the context of the reply and makes it easier to follow (wrt to the replied-to post) is good. Yeti P.S.: Top-posting is a sutable form for two monologues, edited bottom-posting for a dialogue. -- http://gwyddion.net/
Re: Why bottom-posting is preferred on Vim Mainling List?
In the end, what's preferred is personal despite arguments pro and con. However, the preponderant opinion and therefore usage in the Vim group is bottom-posting, though many use interspersed posting and get away with it. If you don't bottom-post, you get told about it by the other, frequent Vim posters and that's enough to sway me to bottom-post in this forum even if I personally don't like it.
Re: Why bottom-posting is prefered on Vim Mainling List?
It seems that top-posters and bottom-posters belongs to different party and no one can convice another. Follow to difficult conversation the makes questions the reading before answers the reading. Responding with the answers interlinearly makes the conversation easier to follow for people who read through the ML archives. It also goes hand-in-hand with trimming the unneeded bits, making it easier to spot the important portions of the dialog: the questions and the answers. Additionally, it demonstrates a respect for the reading audience's time, that you've tried to get rid of the superfluous text and that communication clarity reigns. Well, since no one could convice another, I'll stick to the community rule. Much appreciated :) -tim
Re: Why bottom-posting is prefered on Vim Mainling List?
On 5/29/07, Gene Kwiecinski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Uhhh, that's not my doing, as the text gets resplit/rewrapped somewhere else along the line. About the only thing I could do is manually split it shorter than the default (whatever that is) Reformatting the quoted blocks (gq} or visual+gq as you like best) while you're formatting your email works quite well. Uhh, I *do*. gqap, actually (iirr). (Learned that trick here, in fact.) That's what I mean by manually, vs letting the mailer itself autowrap. Thing is, if I don't know what's the default max-width of v.o's messages, being over by just 1 char will still do the long/short/long/short/... rewraps. Point being that it's not on this end where the rewrap gets done, but somewhere on the 'vim.org' side, either translating incoming email to whatever margins, etc., it prefers, else reformatting it somewhat when sending it back out to the list. I've had private/offline correspondence with quite many people on this list, have seen my own replies echoed back, and have yet to see this wrapping issue apply to any off-list items. Given that I'm stuck with LookOut here, I have to cp (^A^X from LO) to 'vim' (shift-ins), then :g/^ /s// :g/^./s// gqap(per paragraph, iirr) then cp it back to LO's draft before sending. Crude, but more or less effective. It may be a little bit on the expensive side, but it might be worth your while if you use Outlook at work to check out ViEmu [1]. The guy has it for Outlook, Word, Visual Studio (all flavors as far as I know), and some more. The Word and Outlook on come together, so it's really not that bad of a deal if you use both. [1]: http://www.viemu.com/ -- -fREW
Re: Why bottom-posting is preferred on Vim Mainling List?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In the end, what's preferred is personal despite arguments pro and con. However, the preponderant opinion and therefore usage in the Vim group is bottom-posting, though many use interspersed posting and get away with it. If you don't bottom-post, you get told about it by the other, frequent Vim posters and that's enough to sway me to bottom-post in this forum even if I personally don't like it. Unless I completely misunderstand what you mean by the term, interspersed posting /is/ bottom-posting; there is no distinction. If there were no need to intersperse quotes with responses, there'd be little reason at all to bottom-post, and nobody would care enough at any rate to correct people who top-posted. -- Micah J. Cowan Programmer, musician, typesetting enthusiast, gamer... http://micah.cowan.name/ signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Vim over cifs share
Hi all, I've got a problem while editing files through a cifs share. (probably a datestamp problem) Each time I write buffer to the opened file, vim prompts this : WARNING: The file has been changed since reading it!!! Do you really want to write to it (y/n)? As I can't find a solution for my share I would like to know if there's a way to make vim ignores this. Note: using :w! doesn't help -- Fabien Meghazi Website: http://www.amigrave.com Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: flist tree question
onesupermanone wrote: I am a newbie at using gvim. I am using gvim ver 6.4 on linux. I wanted to set up the flist tree on my machine. Dr Chip initially wrote this script. The explaination is at the following site mysite.verizon.net/astronaut/vim/index.html under title C/C++ Functions: prototypes, hints, etc. I have downloaded the flist.tar.gz file. When I untar it I see a lot of C code which I compiled and got an executable flist. Now at this point I have no idea how to incorporate it in my gvim. What do I need to do to set this up. Dr Chip was talking about a FlistTree.vim but I can't seem to find it anywhere. This seems like a cool concept that we can get a function tree. You'll find it at: http://mysite.verizon.net/astronaut/vim/index.html#FLISTTREE Enjoy! Chip Campbell
Re: VimWiki - First Beta
HI Sebastian, On 29/05/07, Sebastian Menge [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all Access the first beta here: http://tinyurl.com/34kfj5 [snipped] Please give feedback! From this page: http://ls10pc13.cs.uni-dortmund.de/mediawiki/index.php/AES256_Encryption_in_vim_done_easy. I realized that `#' is interpreted as numbering in MediaWiki and needs some special processing. Maybe it is better to do so from your script. I have no idea how to escape it. Best regards, Yongwei -- Wu Yongwei URL: http://wyw.dcweb.cn/
Re: Why bottom-posting is preferred on Vim Mainling List?
On 5/29/07, Micah Cowan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In the end, what's preferred is personal despite arguments pro and con. However, the preponderant opinion and therefore usage in the Vim group is bottom-posting, though many use interspersed posting and get away with it. If you don't bottom-post, you get told about it by the other, frequent Vim posters and that's enough to sway me to bottom-post in this forum even if I personally don't like it. Unless I completely misunderstand what you mean by the term, interspersed posting /is/ bottom-posting; there is no distinction. If there were no need to intersperse quotes with responses, there'd be little reason at all to bottom-post, and nobody would care enough at any rate to correct people who top-posted. By corollary, I guess, no one intersperses while top posting this just looks dumb: No you understood right Unless I completely misunderstand what you mean by the term, Yeah, there's no distinction. interspersed posting /is/ bottom-posting; there is no distinction. If I can think of little else to say for my contrived example. there were no need to intersperse quotes with responses, there'd be little reason at all to bottom-post, and nobody would care enough at any
Re: VimWiki - First Beta
Yongwei Wu wrote: HI Sebastian, On 29/05/07, Sebastian Menge [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all Access the first beta here: http://tinyurl.com/34kfj5 [snipped] Please give feedback! From this page: http://ls10pc13.cs.uni-dortmund.de/mediawiki/index.php/AES256_Encryption_in_vim_done_easy. I realized that `#' is interpreted as numbering in MediaWiki and needs some special processing. Maybe it is better to do so from your script. I have no idea how to escape it. I haven't tried but I can imagine either #35; or nowiki#/nowiki Not sure whether they both work. Best regards, Yongwei Best regards, Tony. -- When I was crossing the border into Canada, they asked if I had any firearms with me. I said, `Well, what do you need?' -- Steven Wright
Re: mbox format archive?
* A.J.Mechelynck is quoted my replies are inline below : Ali Polatel wrote: A.J.Mechelynck [EMAIL PROTECTED] yazmış: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: hi i'd like to get as large an archive as possible of this list in mbox format. Looking around I don't see any archive in mbox format surprisingly, does anyone know if this exists? thanks! I've been archiving the vim, vim-dev and vim-multibyte lists locally, ever since I switched over to Linux. The file is 19 meg by now. Shall I send it to you as attachment by private email? Hi, I was reading the vim mailing list today and saw this post :) I would be very happy if you can send me the archives of vim and vim-dev when you have time.. thanks! Hmm... This post of mine seems to be eliciting two kinds of reactions: Me too, me too and Don't, you fool, he may be a spammer harvesting addresses. I think I'll leave it on the backburner for a while, waiting for the situation to clarify. Comments, anyone? Regarding people's concerns about email addresses being visible - they do realise that every post made to the vim mailing list is available on mail-to-news gateways like gmane, don't they? Poster's email address are not munged and available on USENET even though posted on a mailing list. -- Troy Piggins | http://piggo.com/~troy __ ___ RLU#415538\ \ / (_)_ __ ,-O (o-O \ V /| | ' \ O ) //\ O Vim 7.0.22 \_/ |_|_|_|_| `-O V_/_ OOO
Re: Why bottom-posting is prefered on Vim Mainling List?
Hi [EMAIL PROTECTED], *, You got many answers concerning the technical aspects of top-bottom-inline answers. Apart of that, there ist another one.. A mailinglist is kept alive from two parts: people having questions _and_ people having answers. The latter ones often are lurking on several mailinglist reading hundreds of mails a day.. [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: Hi vimmers: Slightly Off-topic, but I'm still wondering why bottom-posting is prefered on Vim Mainling List. [..] and I personally feel top-posting much much easier to read than bottom-posting. ..if You are one _having_ questions that doesn't matter very much, as long as You are interested in getting good answers. ;o)) Aparently a wide range of those more experienced people get their work done more rapidly an efficiently if they are fed with well trimmed and structured inline answered mails. So your chance for getting a valid and useful answer is growing with the number of readers, which can get the point of Your question and the following discussion with a short view. If You _have_ good answers it's up to You, how to spit them out - they will be read however ;o)) Is there any point (or historic reason) choosing bottom-post ? It seems to be some general experience for Mailinglist/Newsgroup traffic that things work better choosing inline answers. As far as I literally understand bottom post I am with You: I can't see any advantage putting the whole answer at the bottom of the mail. But perhaps as non native speaker I don't understand bottom well. btw. I join the voices that price the nice way people are discussing even that (off-)topic on this list. Vimmers seem to be a special kind of civilized people. :o)) -- Friedrich Schöne Grüße / best regards from south part of Germany
Re: Why bottom-posting is prefered on Vim Mainling List?
Op Tuesday 29 May 2007 19:33:37 schreef Gene Kwiecinski: Want me to show you an actual screencap of my reply as it went out from here? Sure, take a look at: http://watmoetikjenogeenkeeruitleggen.nl/Vim-Quoting/quoting-kmail.png http://watmoetikjenogeenkeeruitleggen.nl/Vim-Quoting/quoting-mutt.png http://watmoetikjenogeenkeeruitleggen.nl/Vim-Quoting/quoting-source.png Peter Palm
[Fwd: Re: VimWiki - First Beta]
Forward to list. Best regards, Tony. Original Message Subject: Re: VimWiki - First Beta Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 16:25:35 -0600 From: fREW [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: A.J.Mechelynck [EMAIL PROTECTED] References: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] On 5/29/07, A.J.Mechelynck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yongwei Wu wrote: HI Sebastian, On 29/05/07, Sebastian Menge [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all Access the first beta here: http://tinyurl.com/34kfj5 [snipped] Please give feedback! From this page: http://ls10pc13.cs.uni-dortmund.de/mediawiki/index.php/AES256_Encryption_in_vim_done_easy. I realized that `#' is interpreted as numbering in MediaWiki and needs some special processing. Maybe it is better to do so from your script. I have no idea how to escape it. I haven't tried but I can imagine either #35; or nowiki#/nowiki I think the nowiki syntax is preferred for stuff like that. -- -fREW
Re: Why bottom-posting is prefered on Vim Mainling List?
Friedrich Strohmaier wrote: [...] btw. I join the voices that price the nice way people are discussing even that (off-)topic on this list. Vimmers seem to be a special kind of civilized people. :o)) About being off-topic: IMO netiquette questions about a list are always on-topic on that same list, unless maybe there is another list in the same family (i.e., in this case, @vim.org) which is explicitly dedicated to netiquette questions. About politeness and civilization: We all learn by example. ;-) Best regards, Tony. -- 'Twas the nocturnal segment of the diurnal period preceding the annual Yuletide celebration, And throughout our place of residence, Kinetic activity was not in evidence among the possessors of this potential, including that species of domestic rodent known as Mus musculus. Hosiery was meticulously suspended from the forward edge of the woodburning caloric apparatus, Pursuant to our anticipatory pleasure regarding an imminent visitation from an eccentric philanthropist among whose folkloric appelations is the honorific title of St. Nicklaus ...
Re: Why bottom-posting is prefered on Vim Mainling List?
On May 29, 2007, at 4:22 AM, Matthew Winn wrote: I've seen similar debates elsewhere where the top-poster's response has been along the lines of This is my Internet on my computer; I'm going to behave how I want and I don't care how much trouble I cause for other people. Trimming _and_ bottom-posting, Dave Land replies: On another list, one of the members insisted on sending HTML posts where the font was HHH HHH UUU UUU EE H H U U G E H U U G GGG EEE H H U U G G E HHH HHH UUUGGG EE His argument was that he had visual problems, so he had to use a large font. He was quite incensed that people were bothered by his ENORMOUS emails, and he couldn't be bothered to figure out how to make it so that he could see it just fine on his computer without sending 40-point fonts to everyone else. I believe it deteriorated to the point where the poster in question was hurling four-letter words at anyone who challenged him. The list master eventually turned off HTML posts. I'm glad that this list is so much more civilized. Dave
Re: Why bottom-posting is prefered on Vim Mainling List?
Friedrich Strohmaier [EMAIL PROTECTED] 写于 2007-05-30 07:00:11: btw. I join the voices that price the nice way people are discussing even that (off-)topic on this list. Vimmers seem to be a special kind of civilized people. :o)) I think I could got some idea now: A mailing list is a list, where everyone could see all posts. So it is a good practise for trim, because those who want to see the original could go to the original message to check. That said, bottom-post messages has to be trimmed to retain a good view, so one often need to close the current message and find the orignal message in order to see what the thread is about. This is okay for a mailling list since everyone could see all posts, and bottom-post saves band-width. Office e-mail is very different: consider the e-mail may be replied several times and the fourth person decides to forward the e-mail to executive, he should include everything in it since the executive had not received the original message at all. This is the rule inside my company: e-mail should NEVER be trimmed unless we have a very good reason to omit or hide the trimmed part, interlined reply is not recommended in my office. So the quoted message might be very long, and top-posting is best for this case. Please do not blame Microsoft about the default-top-posting, Microsoft design software for money and for commercial use, the commercial may think top-posting easier to read and band-width is usually not a concern inside a company intranet. Okay, now I think its time to let new vim@vim.org subscribers know that bottom posting is prefered on Vim Mailing List. Will every new subscribers receive an e-mail when subscribe to vim list? is it possible to indicate the bottom-posting preference inside the welcoming e-mail? -- Sincerely, Pan, Shi Zhu. ext: 2606
Re: Why bottom-posting is prefered on Vim Mainling List?
Dave Land wrote: On May 29, 2007, at 4:22 AM, Matthew Winn wrote: I've seen similar debates elsewhere where the top-poster's response has been along the lines of This is my Internet on my computer; I'm going to behave how I want and I don't care how much trouble I cause for other people. Trimming _and_ bottom-posting, Dave Land replies: On another list, one of the members insisted on sending HTML posts where the font was HHH HHH UUU UUU EE H H U U G E H U U G GGG EEE H H U U G G E HHH HHH UUUGGG EE His argument was that he had visual problems, so he had to use a large font. He was quite incensed that people were bothered by his ENORMOUS emails, and he couldn't be bothered to figure out how to make it so that he could see it just fine on his computer without sending 40-point fonts to everyone else. I believe it deteriorated to the point where the poster in question was hurling four-letter words at anyone who challenged him. The list master eventually turned off HTML posts. I'm glad that this list is so much more civilized. Dave The irony of it is that it's so much easier to set a large font for reading when all the posts are in plaintext. Best regards, Tony. -- If you stick a stock of liquor in your locker, It is slick to stick a lock upon your stock. Or some joker who is slicker, Will trick you of your liquor, If you fail to lock your liquor with a lock.
Is there a xml formatter?
I want to have this function: formatting my xml file automatically. or,indent xml element and attributes. is there any plugin like this? thanks!
