Re: Do any of the Braille displays use a QWERTY keyboard? RE: Replacing Braille Notetaker with iDevice

[Scott Davert]

the u2 QWERTY is a solution, though it will not eliminate the braille
issues, as the qwerty keyboard still goes through the same process
when it's translated with VO. There are distinct advantages to having
a separate BT keyboard, like being able to use the quicknav navigation
keys in Safari. While braille support for these is available, there is
no command to toggle the quicknav keyboard commands on and off. On the
bt keyboard, it's VO plus Q. There are other things you cannot do with
braille displays as well such as keyboard commands for the two finger
double tap (VO dash), double tap with one finger and hold, (Vo shift
m) and the aformentioned VO plus Q for turning navigational quicknav
keys on and off. The issue with running a separate bt keyboard with
iOS 8 and later is that when you are typing with the bt keyboard, you
can only see a letter or 2 at a time on the braille display until you
finish typing. What you will see is the last letter or 2 after a full
8-dot cell at the far left, and another at the far right of the
display. Highly annoying if you are someone who is deaf-blind who
wants to use this as an option for communicating with the sighted and
hearing world, not only because of this new limitation, but because
until iOS 8, it was never a issue to have to consider. It's also worth
noting that many displays on iOS have the same issues, because the
development of the braille driver for VO rests within the
responsibility of Apple themselves. That is one advantage of Android,
that the manufacturer of the display can implement whatever braille
keyboard mapping things they want, and then submit it to the
developers of BraillBack, the primary app used for braille support on
Android. However, the translation issue, again, falls with the
developers of BrailleBack.
My point with this is that each system where the braille display is
serving as an external device, has issues. There is no support like
what you will find in a native braille environment. Apple seems to be
the best mobile solution at this time, and it's pretty good overall,
but it still has its issues.

Scott

On 6/20/15, Terry-Ann Saurmann  wrote:
> Yes, from a cost point of view, I would agree.  In addition, you would still
> have excellent portability, though you are now dealing with three devices.
> Terry
>
>   - Original Message -
>   From: Flor Lynch
>   To: viphone@googlegroups.com
>   Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2015 7:09 PM
>   Subject: Re: Do any of the Braille displays use a QWERTY keyboard? RE:
> Replacing Braille Notetaker with iDevice
>
>
>   Succinctly put, and in context.
>
>   From: Andy Baracco
>   Sent: Sunday, June 21, 2015 12:49 AM
>   To: viphone@googlegroups.com
>   Subject: Re: Do any of the Braille displays use a QWERTY keyboard? RE:
> Replacing Braille Notetaker with iDevice
>   It would be much cheaper to get a small bluetooth Braille display and a
> bluetooth keyboard for your QWERTY input.
>
>   Andy
>
>   From: Terry-Ann Saurmann
>   Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2015 3:08 PM
>   To: viphone@googlegroups.com
>   Subject: Re: Do any of the Braille displays use a QWERTY keyboard? RE:
> Replacing Braille Notetaker with iDevice
>   Actually, with such note takers as those from Humanware, Hims and Freedom
> Scientific, that use a Braille display and a qwerty keyboard, you can type
> on the keyboards using the standard typing mode, or you can convert the
> qwerty keyboards to Braille writer style keyboards, which then use letters
> f, d and s to represent the keys for dots 1, 2 and 3, and keys j, k and l to
> represent the keys for dots 4,5 and 6.  When using the keyboard in this way,
> you press the keys simultaneously, to make your characters, just as you
> would, if you were writing, using a Perkins style keyboard.  Terry
>   --
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Re: Replacing Braille Notetaker with iDevice

[Jonathan Mosen]

Hi Elizabeth. Apple attended the NFB convention back in about 2010 I think, but 
tends not to attend either convention on a regular basis.
I regularly use my Focus 14 Blue to tweet, post to Facebook, answer emails and 
texts. I can even edit the occasional document. So I think for adults, it's a 
matter of how flexible you are willing to be. For example, even if you would 
prefer to use contracted input, perhaps the pragmatic approach for now is to 
use computer Braille, so you don't have to contend with Apple's 
back-translation issues. Or just getting used to using letter-signs where 
you're not supposed to use them. So the convention is definitely a good time to 
have a play and see whether you can put up with it. This is why even though I 
know some people here feel differently, I believe the issues are mainly of 
concern to kids learning Braille. I don't think we should be teaching them bad 
habits when they're learning. Long-time Braille users hopefully have good 
Braille habits but can learn to break them for Apple devices for now.
I know Freedom Scientific has their typical offering where you can sit down 
with a product specialist who will gladly pair a Focus display with your own 
iPhone, so you can try it with material you're familiar with. There's nothing 
quite like using one of these devices on your own phone, using it as you would 
in the real world.
Happy exploring.
Jonathan Mosen
Mosen Consulting
Blindness technology eBooks, tutorials and training
http://Mosen.org

> On 22/06/2015, at 4:40 pm, Elizabeth Campbell  wrote:
> 
> Hello Jonathan, Thank you for your thought-provoking post in answer to Joe's 
> question regarding Braille output and IOS. I currently have a BrailleNote 
> Apex notetaker, and I have also been thinking about purchasing one of the 
> tiny displays that will work in conjunction with i devices such as the Focus 
> 14 and the Braille pen. i am looking forward to the upcoming NFB convention 
> in Orlando to do some exploring. I work quite a bit out in the field, and it 
> would be great to send tweets or Facebook posts without having to first use 
> my blue tooth headset or ear buds. However, I am concerned that I won't be 
> able to be as productive as I would like by simply using the Braille display 
> in conjunction with my iPhone and iPad because of the less than stellar 
> input. However the thought of having such a small display that I can use 
> absolutely anywhere is intriguing to me. So, I agree that we need to make our 
> concerns known to Apple,and I wonder if there will be opportunities to do so 
> during the upcoming NFB and ACB conventions?
> 
> On Saturday, June 20, 2015 at 12:31:43 AM UTC-5, Jonathan Mosen wrote:
> Hi Joe, I want to address your question about Braille input in iOS. In my 
> view it is not fit for purpose. I don't know what it is about Braille input 
> Apple doesn't get, whether the blind people they consult with about these 
> things aren't Braille users, or what the deal is. They have the financial and 
> technical resources to fix the issues if they were of a mind to, but sadly it 
> appears we are going to see another major release of iOS without 
> appropriately robust Braille input being available.
> As you know, some manufacturers have chosen to do Apple's work for them, and 
> work around the woeful Braille input in iOS by keeping text in a buffer, then 
> sending it to iOS all at once. I guess this is a pragmatic response, but it 
> also let's Apple off the hook. Apple is a mainstream technology company, but 
> they have also made the choice to be a screen reader company, and I don't 
> believe they should be held to any lesser standard than any other screen 
> reader company.
> They are receiving awards and praise and I don't begrudge them any of it. It 
> is well deserved. But those of us who are passionate about not just the 
> spread of Braille, but the very survival of Braille, need to stand up and be 
> counted.
> There's no doubt that notetaker products can no longer keep up with the 
> phrenetic pace of technology, if they ever really could. So just in terms of 
> the range of things that can be done, getting an iThing is probably a better 
> bet than a notetaker. And some adults may well be confident enough in their 
> Braille skills to work around the shortcomings in Apple's Braille input.
> What really concerns me though is the kids, and in this case I believe 
> notetakers will have a place unless and until Apple get it together when it 
> comes to Braille input.
> I am pasting below a blog post I wrote a couple of years ago called "The 
> Apple Braille Crisis, it's got to be fixed for the kids". While some minor 
> changes were made in iOS 8, it is mostly still relevant. Here it is.
> People from all walks of life, not just blind people, can get extremely 
> partisan about their technology preferences. Anything their team does is 
> unquestionably wonderful, while anything another company does is rubbish, 
> simply by v

Re: Replacing Braille Notetaker with iDevice

[\Elizabeth Campbell]

Hello Jonathan, Thank you for your thought-provoking post in answer to 
Joe's question regarding Braille output and IOS. I currently have a 
BrailleNote Apex notetaker, and I have also been thinking about purchasing 
one of the tiny displays that will work in conjunction with i devices such 
as the Focus 14 and the Braille pen. i am looking forward to the upcoming 
NFB convention in Orlando to do some exploring. I work quite a bit out in 
the field, and it would be great to send tweets or Facebook posts without 
having to first use my blue tooth headset or ear buds. However, I am 
concerned that I won't be able to be as productive as I would like by 
simply using the Braille display in conjunction with my iPhone and iPad 
because of the less than stellar input. However the thought of having such 
a small display that I can use absolutely anywhere is intriguing to me. So, 
I agree that we need to make our concerns known to Apple,and I wonder if 
there will be opportunities to do so during the upcoming NFB and ACB 
conventions?

On Saturday, June 20, 2015 at 12:31:43 AM UTC-5, Jonathan Mosen wrote:
>
> Hi Joe, I want to address your question about Braille input in iOS. In my 
> view it is not fit for purpose. I don't know what it is about Braille input 
> Apple doesn't get, whether the blind people they consult with about these 
> things aren't Braille users, or what the deal is. They have the financial 
> and technical resources to fix the issues if they were of a mind to, but 
> sadly it appears we are going to see another major release of iOS without 
> appropriately robust Braille input being available.
> As you know, some manufacturers have chosen to do Apple's work for them, 
> and work around the woeful Braille input in iOS by keeping text in a 
> buffer, then sending it to iOS all at once. I guess this is a pragmatic 
> response, but it also let's Apple off the hook. Apple is a mainstream 
> technology company, but they have also made the choice to be a screen 
> reader company, and I don't believe they should be held to any lesser 
> standard than any other screen reader company.
> They are receiving awards and praise and I don't begrudge them any of it. 
> It is well deserved. But those of us who are passionate about not just the 
> spread of Braille, but the very survival of Braille, need to stand up and 
> be counted.
> There's no doubt that notetaker products can no longer keep up with the 
> phrenetic pace of technology, if they ever really could. So just in terms 
> of the range of things that can be done, getting an iThing is probably a 
> better bet than a notetaker. And some adults may well be confident enough 
> in their Braille skills to work around the shortcomings in Apple's Braille 
> input.
> What really concerns me though is the kids, and in this case I believe 
> notetakers will have a place unless and until Apple get it together when it 
> comes to Braille input.
> I am pasting below a blog post I wrote a couple of years ago called "The 
> Apple Braille Crisis, it's got to be fixed for the kids". While some minor 
> changes were made in iOS 8, it is mostly still relevant. Here it is.
>
> People from all walks of life, not just blind people, can get extremely 
> partisan about their technology preferences. Anything their team does is 
> unquestionably wonderful, while anything another company does is rubbish, 
> simply by virtue of the fact that it’s the other guys who did it. If you 
> criticise the company such people support, you’ve committed heresy.
>
> As blind people, I don’t believe we have the luxury of being so childish. 
> Unemployment is high. Misconceptions abound regarding how capable we can be 
> in the workplace, and in society as a whole. We need to be open to all 
> solutions, and where possible, use the best mix of technology we can to be 
> as productive, functional and self-reliant as we can.
>
> To be clear, I have enormous admiration for the way Apple has changed the 
> game in assistive technology. When they released VoiceOver in 2009, I was 
> concerned that Apple might do just enough to get people off its back 
> regarding the inaccessibility of the iPhone. But that has not been the 
> case. With every release, Apple has added tangible enhancements such as 
> alternative forms of input, innovative ways for us to use the camera, and 
> so much more. So Apple’s commitment to accessibility is real, its ongoing, 
> and it has earned enormous praise and respect.
>
> Is there a “but” coming? Yes, there is, actually., because being grateful 
> for a product doesn’t mean we don’t have rights as paying consumers to 
> point out where a product falls short. But more than that, if Apple’s 
> innovations risk killing off a category of product, and the literacy of our 
> kids is threatened, we have a moral obligation to speak up constructively 
> and ask Apple to engage with us as a community about fixing the issue.
>
> The Internet is buzzing with reports of bugs in iOS

RE: Replacing Braille Notetaker with iDevice

[grant . lists]

Hi Eileen, I believe your BrailleNote Apex will lock up if more than one paired 
device tries to access the display at once. For example, if you are using your 
BrailleNote in Braille display mode with a computer, and a paired iPhone wakes 
up and tries to access it, this will cause the lockup. Your display will 
continue to work with the computer, but all input keys will stop working until 
you drop all connections and try to reconnect again.

 

Grant

 

From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Eileen
Sent: June 21, 2015 4:31 PM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Replacing Braille Notetaker with iDevice

 

Hello Folks,

 

I have been following this thread, especially regarding the HW products. I 
haven't paired my Apex to my iPhone 6 in quite a while. This is because I have 
chosen my braille input on the phone to use the MBraille app and voice of Alex. 

 

I still prefer to read novels and the such on the Apex. I download the books 
directly from Bookshare on to the device. Hence, one can continue using a 
braille notetaker for that purpose. 

 

My question to those who are using or have used HW products what causes it to 
lock uf? I would like to give the Apex a second chance with my iPhone 6 once 
again.

 

Thanks again and I'm with you Sandy in wishing for a full page braille display. 

 

Bast,

Eileen

Sent from my iPhone

 

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Re: Replacing Braille Notetaker with iDevice

[Eileen]

Hello Folks,

I have been following this thread, especially regarding the HW products. I 
haven't paired my Apex to my iPhone 6 in quite a while. This is because I have 
chosen my braille input on the phone to use the MBraille app and voice of Alex. 

I still prefer to read novels and the such on the Apex. I download the books 
directly from Bookshare on to the device. Hence, one can continue using a 
braille notetaker for that purpose. 

My question to those who are using or have used HW products what causes it to 
lock uf? I would like to give the Apex a second chance with my iPhone 6 once 
again.

Thanks again and I'm with you Sandy in wishing for a full page braille display. 

Bast,
Eileen

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jun 21, 2015, at 3:17 PM, Joe  wrote:
> 
> Hi, thanks all for your thoughts regarding the replacement of a dedicated 
> Braille notetaker with a Braille display and iDevice.
>  
> I’m bummed to hear about the Brailliant BI 40. Humanware makes awesome 
> displays, or is it Baum who manufactures their Braille cells? Regardless, the 
> crisp quality is fantastic, and despite their advances in software, it’s a 
> feat HIMS has not been able to match. The problem with the Brailliant is the 
> lack of notetaking support. I need to be able to whip out a display and input 
> data, sometimes in secure environments where Bluetooth and/or wi-fi is not 
> accessible.
>  
> The Braille Edge seems promising. Cost-wise at $3,000 it’s in the middle of 
> the pack. I much prefer Humanware’s thumb keys to navigate back and forth. I 
> can’t come up with many cons against it come to think of it.
>  
> The VarioUltra is the next best option, but at $4,000 it’s certainly 
> requiring more of a fascination to justify the expense. It does have 
> notetaking ability and I hear the Braille display quality is superb. If the 
> price weren’t so high...
>  
> The thought of bypassing iOS and connecting to my Windows ultrabook is 
> another possibility as someone mentioned. Yet, even as small as my ultrabook 
> is, it would still not be as portable as linking up to my phone.
>  
> I read back over my writing and sound like a whiny brat to myself. Still, it 
> can’t be as difficult as it is to get a good input method down for someone 
> interested in reading Braille! Anyway, thanks guys for entertaining my 
> questions and for your suggestions.
>  
> Joe
>  
> --
> Musings of a Work in Progress:
> www.JoeOrozco.com/
>  
> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe
>  
> From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of 
> Cristóbal
> Sent: Sunday, June 21, 2015 3:02 PM
> To: viphone@googlegroups.com
> Subject: RE: Replacing Braille Notetaker with iDevice
>  
> Somewhat back to the original inquiry, if Braille is such a vital part of the 
> job, and if you’re an experienced Windows based screen reader, then maybe 
> consider looking into one of those windows based tablets. Dell Venue or 
> Toshiba Encore for example. A 2gb model wont’ run you more than $250.00 and 
> probably less if you really hunt for a deal or don’t’ mind going refurbished 
> or used. Apple is great and all, but perhaps in a circumstance like this, for 
> practicle purposes, going for more robust and reliable Braille support may be 
> the way to go. Perhaps use cloud based services in order to have as much 
> synchronicity on Windows and i-devices as well. Perhaps not ideal since you’d 
> be talking about a totally separate device and reliance on Internet access, 
> but there you go.
>  
>  
> From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of 
> Paul Hunt
> Sent: Sunday, June 21, 2015 11:45 AM
> To: viphone@googlegroups.com
> Subject: RE: Replacing Braille Notetaker with iDevice
>  
> Hello Jonnathan. I have two questions for you.
> 1. When using a focus 40 blue with IOS devices, does the focus ever lock up 
> when you are writing braille?  Do you have a 16 32 or 64 bit IOS device?
> 2. Does Apple have to write drivers for each braille display? What part do 
> the braille display manufacturers play in making sure their devices work with 
> IOS? I'm asking you because you were vice president of Hardware products with 
> Freedom Scientific so your experience here may halp us in our advocacy 
> efforts.
> As far as the Humanware Firmware update is concerned, it did nothing to 
> resolve the problem of the Brailliant locking up.
> Thanks so much.
>  
> Paul
>  
> From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of 
> Jonathan Mosen
> Sent: Sunday, June 21, 2015 7:35 AM
> To: viphone@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: Replacing Braille Notetaker with iDevice
>  
> Hi Paul, I wish I had a better answer other than continuing to writ

RE: Replacing Braille Notetaker with iDevice

[Joe]

Hi, thanks all for your thoughts regarding the replacement of a dedicated 
Braille notetaker with a Braille display and iDevice.

 

I’m bummed to hear about the Brailliant BI 40. Humanware makes awesome 
displays, or is it Baum who manufactures their Braille cells? Regardless, the 
crisp quality is fantastic, and despite their advances in software, it’s a feat 
HIMS has not been able to match. The problem with the Brailliant is the lack of 
notetaking support. I need to be able to whip out a display and input data, 
sometimes in secure environments where Bluetooth and/or wi-fi is not accessible.

 

The Braille Edge seems promising. Cost-wise at $3,000 it’s in the middle of the 
pack. I much prefer Humanware’s thumb keys to navigate back and forth. I can’t 
come up with many cons against it come to think of it.

 

The VarioUltra is the next best option, but at $4,000 it’s certainly requiring 
more of a fascination to justify the expense. It does have notetaking ability 
and I hear the Braille display quality is superb. If the price weren’t so 
high...

 

The thought of bypassing iOS and connecting to my Windows ultrabook is another 
possibility as someone mentioned. Yet, even as small as my ultrabook is, it 
would still not be as portable as linking up to my phone.

 

I read back over my writing and sound like a whiny brat to myself. Still, it 
can’t be as difficult as it is to get a good input method down for someone 
interested in reading Braille! Anyway, thanks guys for entertaining my 
questions and for your suggestions.

 

Joe

 

--

Musings of a Work in Progress:

www.JoeOrozco.com/

 

Twitter: @ScribblingJoe

 

From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Cristóbal
Sent: Sunday, June 21, 2015 3:02 PM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: Replacing Braille Notetaker with iDevice

 

Somewhat back to the original inquiry, if Braille is such a vital part of the 
job, and if you’re an experienced Windows based screen reader, then maybe 
consider looking into one of those windows based tablets. Dell Venue or Toshiba 
Encore for example. A 2gb model wont’ run you more than $250.00 and probably 
less if you really hunt for a deal or don’t’ mind going refurbished or used. 
Apple is great and all, but perhaps in a circumstance like this, for practicle 
purposes, going for more robust and reliable Braille support may be the way to 
go. Perhaps use cloud based services in order to have as much synchronicity on 
Windows and i-devices as well. Perhaps not ideal since you’d be talking about a 
totally separate device and reliance on Internet access, but there you go.

 

 

From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Paul Hunt
Sent: Sunday, June 21, 2015 11:45 AM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: Replacing Braille Notetaker with iDevice

 

Hello Jonnathan. I have two questions for you.

1. When using a focus 40 blue with IOS devices, does the focus ever lock up 
when you are writing braille?  Do you have a 16 32 or 64 bit IOS device?

2. Does Apple have to write drivers for each braille display? What part do the 
braille display manufacturers play in making sure their devices work with IOS? 
I'm asking you because you were vice president of Hardware products with 
Freedom Scientific so your experience here may halp us in our advocacy efforts.

As far as the Humanware Firmware update is concerned, it did nothing to resolve 
the problem of the Brailliant locking up.

Thanks so much.

 

Paul

 

From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Jonathan Mosen
Sent: Sunday, June 21, 2015 7:35 AM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Replacing Braille Notetaker with iDevice

 

Hi Paul, I wish I had a better answer other than continuing to write to Apple 
Accessibility, and putting pressure on via those who make the purchasing 
decisions about these devices.

We have to stand firm and let them know the implementation isn't fit for 
purpose.

You're absolutely on the right track with your diagnosis. If your display is 
working fine with other solutions such as a laptop, then clearly we're dealing 
with a driver issue, and Apple writes all the drivers to talk to the various 
Braille displays. No matter what Braille display we're using, we're going to 
have the contracted input issues because they're a function of iOS.

I think frustration is mounting because people have been pointing out these 
issues for some years now.

One thing that hasn't yet been done, and in my view should be, is an Applevis 
campaign of the month. I've not seen such a campaign for a while now, but 
Applevis has gone after third-party developers who've provided a less than 
optimal experience for VO users. So with something as critical as our very 
literacy, this is an issue that warrants the site's serious attention in my 
opinion.

Jonathan Mosen,

Mosen Consulting

Re: Replacing Braille Notetaker with iDevice

[Jonathan Mosen]

Hi Paul, no, I don't believe I have ever had the Focus just lock up. With iOS 
it can be a little sluggish, but that's due to implementation on the Apple 
side. It never just crashes though, at least, it never has for me and I Braille 
at a fair clip.
In general terms, a Braille display manufacturer will provide the 
specifications to Apple for writing a driver. If there is some sort of 
compatibility issue reported by customers, it should be possible for the 
display manufacturer and the software developer, in this case Apple, to enter 
into a dialogue. It has been some time since I was responsible for hardware at 
FS so I have no knowledge of what communication is like now. When I was doing 
that work, it was certainly possible and fruitful.

Jonathan Mosen
Mosen Consulting
Blindness technology eBooks, tutorials and training
http://Mosen.org

> On 22/06/2015, at 6:45 am, Paul Hunt  wrote:
> 
> Hello Jonnathan. I have two questions for you.
> 1. When using a focus 40 blue with IOS devices, does the focus ever lock up 
> when you are writing braille?  Do you have a 16 32 or 64 bit IOS device?
> 2. Does Apple have to write drivers for each braille display? What part do 
> the braille display manufacturers play in making sure their devices work with 
> IOS? I'm asking you because you were vice president of Hardware products with 
> Freedom Scientific so your experience here may halp us in our advocacy 
> efforts.
> As far as the Humanware Firmware update is concerned, it did nothing to 
> resolve the problem of the Brailliant locking up.
> Thanks so much.
>  
> Paul
>  
> From: viphone@googlegroups.com <mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com> 
> [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com <mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com>] On Behalf 
> Of Jonathan Mosen
> Sent: Sunday, June 21, 2015 7:35 AM
> To: viphone@googlegroups.com <mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com>
> Subject: Re: Replacing Braille Notetaker with iDevice
>  
> Hi Paul, I wish I had a better answer other than continuing to write to Apple 
> Accessibility, and putting pressure on via those who make the purchasing 
> decisions about these devices.
> We have to stand firm and let them know the implementation isn't fit for 
> purpose.
> You're absolutely on the right track with your diagnosis. If your display is 
> working fine with other solutions such as a laptop, then clearly we're 
> dealing with a driver issue, and Apple writes all the drivers to talk to the 
> various Braille displays. No matter what Braille display we're using, we're 
> going to have the contracted input issues because they're a function of iOS.
> I think frustration is mounting because people have been pointing out these 
> issues for some years now.
> One thing that hasn't yet been done, and in my view should be, is an Applevis 
> campaign of the month. I've not seen such a campaign for a while now, but 
> Applevis has gone after third-party developers who've provided a less than 
> optimal experience for VO users. So with something as critical as our very 
> literacy, this is an issue that warrants the site's serious attention in my 
> opinion.
> 
> Jonathan Mosen,
> Mosen Consulting
> Blindness technology information, eBooks and training
> http://Mosen.org <http://mosen.org/>
> 
> On 21/06/2015, at 11:31 pm, Paul Hunt  <mailto:prhu...@att.net>> wrote:
> 
>> Hello everybody. I would like to make this discussion practical. I have 
>> chosen not to purchase a dedicated notetaker when a laptop and screen reader 
>> give me more features more timely and at a lower price. Sometimes I don't 
>> want to carry a laptop. Since Apple has built braille display support into 
>> Voiceover, I expect it to be properly implemented and to work flawlessly.
>> I own a Humanware Brailliant BI 40 and a 16 gig iPhone 5S. I can read all 
>> day long but when I write, the BI 40 locks up and by the time I recover I've 
>> missed some notes during meetings, etc. I've tried to work with both 
>> companies. Instead of solving the problem, they are blaming each other. 
>> Since Apple has the resources and controls the environment I expect Apple to 
>> take the lead and I expect Humanware to work with Apple to resolve the 
>> issue. How can we promptly get their attention when the usual channels of 
>> communication don't work?
>> On Jun 21, 2015, at 12:20 AM, Jonathan Mosen > <mailto:jmo...@mosen.org>> wrote:
>> 
>>> Tara, yet again you are misrepresenting my comments.
>>> In saying that Apple has chosen to be a screen reader company, I am not 
>>> saying they shouldn't have, and I think I made that very clear. Like many 
>>>

Re: Replacing Braille Notetaker with iDevice

[Joe Quinn]

I've gotten used to it but still prefer contracted Braille.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jun 21, 2015, at 3:26 PM, Andy Baracco  wrote:
> 
> That’s fine as long as you are not writing for publication.
>  
> Andy
>  
> From: Brett
> Sent: Sunday, June 21, 2015 1:12 PM
> To: viphone@googlegroups.com
> Subject: RE: Replacing Braille Notetaker with iDevice
> I personally don’t use UEB. I find it faster to read and write in contracted 
> braille than in UEB and since the only time I read Braille these days is 
> either with my computer or iPhone, I don’t really see any reason for me to 
> use UEB when its slower and I am able to pick the type of output I want 
> anyway. I don’t read Braille books these days, plus its too hard to get 
> anything I would actually want to read in Braille in a paper format these 
> days.
>  
> Just my thoughts.
>  
> Cheers,
> Brett.
>  
>  
> From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of 
> Joe Quinn
> Sent: Sunday, 21 June 2015 11:29 PM
> To: viphone@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: Replacing Braille Notetaker with iDevice
>  
> It does. I've almost been thinking of going back to the regular English 
> braille instead of UEB just because it takes up less room. I hope Apple 
> doesn't take out that option. Though they may, considering that everyone has 
> switched to it by the time IOS 9  comes out.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Jun 20, 2015, at 4:04 PM, Alex Hall  wrote:
> 
> Agreed; contracted braille is really important to me when I have to read it. 
> It's faster and, vitally in today's market of tiny cell counts, more fits on 
> one line. The OP asked specifically about 32-cell units, and if you think 
> about it, even those are quite small compared to what a sighted person can 
> see on an iPhone's screen. The more that can fit, the better. I love UEB for 
> removing the ambiguities, but the trade-off is that it takes up more room, 
> especially as you start using it for math or science.
> On Jun 20, 2015, at 4:32 PM, Jonathan Mosen  wrote:
>  
> Hi David. I think this is a separate issue from what we are discussing. I 
> disagree with you because as someone who must read a lot for public 
> presentations and audio production work, I find contracted Braille helps me 
> process information much more quickly than uncontracted Braille. That's 
> important for fluency.
> But it's an interesting discussion. UEB has significantly reduced translation 
> ambiguities. In the end though, this is a decision for blind people to make. 
> Braille belongs to us. We should not be forced to alter our practices due to 
> a single company's inability or unwillingness to get their Braille 
> implementation right.
> Jonathan Mosen
> Mosen Consulting
> Blindness technology eBooks, tutorials and training
> http://Mosen.org
>  
> On 20/06/2015, at 9:35 pm, David Chittenden  wrote:
>  
> Jonathan,
>  
> I respectfully disagree with you about braille. Contracted braille is like 
> print shorthand. It became mainstream because braille is so large on paper, 
> so it was developed to drastically reduce the footprint of braille.
>  
> Now that we have electronic braille, we should be learning and teaching 
> computer braille rather than noncontracted and contracted literary braille. 
> This would give us blind people parity with sighted people. We would not need 
> to rely, in any way, on contracted braille translators which cause much 
> complications with computer interfaces.
>  
> A few years ago, the AFB published a study where some blind children were 
> taught using computer braille. There was no difference in learning or 
> information retention between those children and children who are taught 
> using contracted literary braille.
> 
> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
> Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On 20 Jun 2015, at 17:31, Jonathan Mosen  wrote:
> 
> Hi Joe, I want to address your question about Braille input in iOS. In my 
> view it is not fit for purpose. I don't know what it is about Braille input 
> Apple doesn't get, whether the blind people they consult with about these 
> things aren't Braille users, or what the deal is. They have the financial and 
> technical resources to fix the issues if they were of a mind to, but sadly it 
> appears we are going to see another major release of iOS without 
> appropriately robust Braille input being available.
> As you know, some manufacturers have chosen to do Apple's work for them, and 
> work around the woeful Braille input in iOS by keeping text in a buffer, then 
> sending it to iOS all at once. I guess this

Re: Replacing Braille Notetaker with iDevice

[Andy Baracco]

That’s fine as long as you are not writing for publication.

Andy

From: Brett 
Sent: Sunday, June 21, 2015 1:12 PM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com 
Subject: RE: Replacing Braille Notetaker with iDevice
I personally don’t use UEB. I find it faster to read and write in contracted 
braille than in UEB and since the only time I read Braille these days is either 
with my computer or iPhone, I don’t really see any reason for me to use UEB 
when its slower and I am able to pick the type of output I want anyway. I don’t 
read Braille books these days, plus its too hard to get anything I would 
actually want to read in Braille in a paper format these days. 

 

Just my thoughts.

 

Cheers,

Brett.

 

 

From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Joe Quinn
Sent: Sunday, 21 June 2015 11:29 PM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Replacing Braille Notetaker with iDevice

 

It does. I've almost been thinking of going back to the regular English braille 
instead of UEB just because it takes up less room. I hope Apple doesn't take 
out that option. Though they may, considering that everyone has switched to it 
by the time IOS 9  comes out.

Sent from my iPhone


On Jun 20, 2015, at 4:04 PM, Alex Hall  wrote:

  Agreed; contracted braille is really important to me when I have to read it. 
It's faster and, vitally in today's market of tiny cell counts, more fits on 
one line. The OP asked specifically about 32-cell units, and if you think about 
it, even those are quite small compared to what a sighted person can see on an 
iPhone's screen. The more that can fit, the better. I love UEB for removing the 
ambiguities, but the trade-off is that it takes up more room, especially as you 
start using it for math or science.

On Jun 20, 2015, at 4:32 PM, Jonathan Mosen  wrote:

 

Hi David. I think this is a separate issue from what we are discussing. I 
disagree with you because as someone who must read a lot for public 
presentations and audio production work, I find contracted Braille helps me 
process information much more quickly than uncontracted Braille. That's 
important for fluency.

But it's an interesting discussion. UEB has significantly reduced 
translation ambiguities. In the end though, this is a decision for blind people 
to make. Braille belongs to us. We should not be forced to alter our practices 
due to a single company's inability or unwillingness to get their Braille 
implementation right.

Jonathan Mosen

Mosen Consulting

Blindness technology eBooks, tutorials and training

http://Mosen.org

 

  On 20/06/2015, at 9:35 pm, David Chittenden  wrote:

   

  Jonathan,

   

  I respectfully disagree with you about braille. Contracted braille is 
like print shorthand. It became mainstream because braille is so large on 
paper, so it was developed to drastically reduce the footprint of braille.

   

  Now that we have electronic braille, we should be learning and teaching 
computer braille rather than noncontracted and contracted literary braille. 
This would give us blind people parity with sighted people. We would not need 
to rely, in any way, on contracted braille translators which cause much 
complications with computer interfaces.

   

  A few years ago, the AFB published a study where some blind children were 
taught using computer braille. There was no difference in learning or 
information retention between those children and children who are taught using 
contracted literary braille.

  David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA

  Email: dchitten...@gmail.com

  Mobile: +64 21 2288 288

  Sent from my iPhone


  On 20 Jun 2015, at 17:31, Jonathan Mosen  wrote:

Hi Joe, I want to address your question about Braille input in iOS. In 
my view it is not fit for purpose. I don't know what it is about Braille input 
Apple doesn't get, whether the blind people they consult with about these 
things aren't Braille users, or what the deal is. They have the financial and 
technical resources to fix the issues if they were of a mind to, but sadly it 
appears we are going to see another major release of iOS without appropriately 
robust Braille input being available.

As you know, some manufacturers have chosen to do Apple's work for 
them, and work around the woeful Braille input in iOS by keeping text in a 
buffer, then sending it to iOS all at once. I guess this is a pragmatic 
response, but it also let's Apple off the hook. Apple is a mainstream 
technology company, but they have also made the choice to be a screen reader 
company, and I don't believe they should be held to any lesser standard than 
any other screen reader company.

They are receiving awards and praise and I don't begrudge them any of 
it. It is well deserved. But those of us who are passionate about not just the 
spread of 

RE: Replacing Braille Notetaker with iDevice

[Brett]

I personally don’t use UEB. I find it faster to read and write in contracted 
braille than in UEB and since the only time I read Braille these days is either 
with my computer or iPhone, I don’t really see any reason for me to use UEB 
when its slower and I am able to pick the type of output I want anyway. I don’t 
read Braille books these days, plus its too hard to get anything I would 
actually want to read in Braille in a paper format these days. 

 

Just my thoughts.

 

Cheers,

Brett.

 

 

From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Joe Quinn
Sent: Sunday, 21 June 2015 11:29 PM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Replacing Braille Notetaker with iDevice

 

It does. I've almost been thinking of going back to the regular English braille 
instead of UEB just because it takes up less room. I hope Apple doesn't take 
out that option. Though they may, considering that everyone has switched to it 
by the time IOS 9  comes out.

Sent from my iPhone


On Jun 20, 2015, at 4:04 PM, Alex Hall mailto:mehg...@icloud.com> > wrote:

Agreed; contracted braille is really important to me when I have to read it. 
It's faster and, vitally in today's market of tiny cell counts, more fits on 
one line. The OP asked specifically about 32-cell units, and if you think about 
it, even those are quite small compared to what a sighted person can see on an 
iPhone's screen. The more that can fit, the better. I love UEB for removing the 
ambiguities, but the trade-off is that it takes up more room, especially as you 
start using it for math or science.

On Jun 20, 2015, at 4:32 PM, Jonathan Mosen mailto:jmo...@mosen.org> > wrote:

 

Hi David. I think this is a separate issue from what we are discussing. I 
disagree with you because as someone who must read a lot for public 
presentations and audio production work, I find contracted Braille helps me 
process information much more quickly than uncontracted Braille. That's 
important for fluency.

But it's an interesting discussion. UEB has significantly reduced translation 
ambiguities. In the end though, this is a decision for blind people to make. 
Braille belongs to us. We should not be forced to alter our practices due to a 
single company's inability or unwillingness to get their Braille implementation 
right.

Jonathan Mosen

Mosen Consulting

Blindness technology eBooks, tutorials and training

http://Mosen.org <http://mosen.org/> 

 

On 20/06/2015, at 9:35 pm, David Chittenden mailto:dchitten...@gmail.com> > wrote:

 

Jonathan,

 

I respectfully disagree with you about braille. Contracted braille is like 
print shorthand. It became mainstream because braille is so large on paper, so 
it was developed to drastically reduce the footprint of braille.

 

Now that we have electronic braille, we should be learning and teaching 
computer braille rather than noncontracted and contracted literary braille. 
This would give us blind people parity with sighted people. We would not need 
to rely, in any way, on contracted braille translators which cause much 
complications with computer interfaces.

 

A few years ago, the AFB published a study where some blind children were 
taught using computer braille. There was no difference in learning or 
information retention between those children and children who are taught using 
contracted literary braille.

David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA

Email: dchitten...@gmail.com <mailto:dchitten...@gmail.com> 

Mobile: +64 21 2288 288

Sent from my iPhone


On 20 Jun 2015, at 17:31, Jonathan Mosen mailto:jmo...@mosen.org> > wrote:

Hi Joe, I want to address your question about Braille input in iOS. In my view 
it is not fit for purpose. I don't know what it is about Braille input Apple 
doesn't get, whether the blind people they consult with about these things 
aren't Braille users, or what the deal is. They have the financial and 
technical resources to fix the issues if they were of a mind to, but sadly it 
appears we are going to see another major release of iOS without appropriately 
robust Braille input being available.

As you know, some manufacturers have chosen to do Apple's work for them, and 
work around the woeful Braille input in iOS by keeping text in a buffer, then 
sending it to iOS all at once. I guess this is a pragmatic response, but it 
also let's Apple off the hook. Apple is a mainstream technology company, but 
they have also made the choice to be a screen reader company, and I don't 
believe they should be held to any lesser standard than any other screen reader 
company.

They are receiving awards and praise and I don't begrudge them any of it. It is 
well deserved. But those of us who are passionate about not just the spread of 
Braille, but the very survival of Braille, need to stand up and be counted.

There's no doubt that notetaker products can no longer keep up 

Re: Replacing Braille Notetaker with iDevice

[Andy Baracco]

There have been documented issues with Humanware products and the I devices 
that have not occured with similar devices from other manufacturers.

Andy

From: Alex Hall 
Sent: Sunday, June 21, 2015 7:15 AM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com 
Subject: Re: Replacing Braille Notetaker with iDevice
I do agree that braille input on iOS needs work. As to locking up, though, is 
this only in the Humanware displays? Those who follow me probably know I 
strongly dislike Humanware as a company, because of out-of-date and broken 
features, promises they failed to deliver on, and a tendency to blame other 
companies for their shortcomings. 

For example, when I used an Apex with my iPod all the time, delete was space-d 
and enter was space-e. This made the enter command especially annoying, because 
you had to hit a special command before the Apex would pass space-e along 
instead of reading it as the 'exit' command. When I asked HW why they didn't 
use dots 7 and 8 like all the other braille displays, they blamed Apple. When I 
asked about the scroll wheel not being supported, they blamed Apple. When I 
asked why, in later versions of Keysoft, the Apex would randomly lock up and 
need a reset while connected to iOS, they blamed Apple. The thing is, no other 
display I've used or heard of has these problems, and even the Apex didn't lock 
up until KS9.2, if memory serves. It was working fine, then, after a Keysoft 
update, it wasn't. Humanware just blamed Apple, and, as far as I know, *still* 
hasn't fixed anything. Now I'm hearing that the Brailliant displays do the same 
thing, and I have to wonder if this isn't yet another  Humanware quality 
control problem.

All that to say: if it were me, I'd get a display from any company except 
Humanware. Yes, input needs work, and that's all Apple, but some of the AT 
companies aren't exactly paragons of great hardware and software.

  On Jun 21, 2015, at 8:34 AM, Jonathan Mosen  wrote:

  Hi Paul, I wish I had a better answer other than continuing to write to Apple 
Accessibility, and putting pressure on via those who make the purchasing 
decisions about these devices.
  We have to stand firm and let them know the implementation isn't fit for 
purpose.
  You're absolutely on the right track with your diagnosis. If your display is 
working fine with other solutions such as a laptop, then clearly we're dealing 
with a driver issue, and Apple writes all the drivers to talk to the various 
Braille displays. No matter what Braille display we're using, we're going to 
have the contracted input issues because they're a function of iOS.
  I think frustration is mounting because people have been pointing out these 
issues for some years now.
  One thing that hasn't yet been done, and in my view should be, is an Applevis 
campaign of the month. I've not seen such a campaign for a while now, but 
Applevis has gone after third-party developers who've provided a less than 
optimal experience for VO users. So with something as critical as our very 
literacy, this is an issue that warrants the site's serious attention in my 
opinion.

  Jonathan Mosen, 
  Mosen Consulting
  Blindness technology information, eBooks and training
  http://Mosen.org

  On 21/06/2015, at 11:31 pm, Paul Hunt  wrote:


Hello everybody. I would like to make this discussion practical. I have 
chosen not to purchase a dedicated notetaker when a laptop and screen reader 
give me more features more timely and at a lower price. Sometimes I don't want 
to carry a laptop. Since Apple has built braille display support into 
Voiceover, I expect it to be properly implemented and to work flawlessly.
I own a Humanware Brailliant BI 40 and a 16 gig iPhone 5S. I can read all 
day long but when I write, the BI 40 locks up and by the time I recover I've 
missed some notes during meetings, etc. I've tried to work with both companies. 
Instead of solving the problem, they are blaming each other. Since Apple has 
the resources and controls the environment I expect Apple to take the lead and 
I expect Humanware to work with Apple to resolve the issue. How can we promptly 
get their attention when the usual channels of communication don't work?
On Jun 21, 2015, at 12:20 AM, Jonathan Mosen  wrote:


  Tara, yet again you are misrepresenting my comments.
  In saying that Apple has chosen to be a screen reader company, I am not 
saying they shouldn't have, and I think I made that very clear. Like many 
people on this list, my life is enriched every day by the fact that Apple has 
chosen to be a screen reader company. And you can find many books and blog 
posts I've written, as well as media interviews I've done, where I make this 
point.
  I am saying, however, that they should be held to no lesser standard than 
any other screen reader company. When Apple developed their own

Re: Replacing Braille Notetaker with iDevice

[Andy Baracco]

In 1998 Dean Blazie said that refreshable Braille cells cost between $80 and 
$100 each. Unfortunately, since then there has been little if any reduction 
in that price. There are only a few manufacturers of these cells, and in 
business terms, the market is just too small to foster any way that they can 
reduce prices and still make enough to feed their employees.

Andy


-Original Message- 
From: Marianne Denning

Sent: Sunday, June 21, 2015 7:11 AM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Replacing Braille Notetaker with iDevice

Sadly, the cost of each braille cell is very expensive so the
companies must pass that cost on to the people who purchase their
products.  There is some work taking place to develop less expensive
braille cells but I don't know how soon those are expected to be sold.

On 6/21/15, TaraPrakash  wrote:

All the points about the utility of Braille are well taken, Jonathan's
concern about survival about Braille, and that those who know Braille are
more successful in employment field is also agreeable to me (Even if I am
not sure the source of this statistics that Jonathan quoted in his 
response

addressed to me..)
The problem for me is his assertion that Apple has decided to become a
screen reader company etc  What I read in that comment is a suggestion
that Apple shouldn't have ventured in to providing screen support as there
are specialists for it. That somehow the assistive technology specialist
companies
are doing a better job for promotion of braille than apple. So, here is my
suggestion for humanware and freedom scientific who are likely to listen 
to

Jonathan, whose work with those companies has been commendable; and these
companies hardly face any resolution against them in the conventions of
blindness organizations who represent the blind. Let Freedom Scientific 
and

Humanware make the braille note takers at the same price as the price of
their note takers without braille. Voice sense, voice note and Packmate
without Braille display sell for around 3500. with braille option they 
sell
close to 6500. Why that extra price for Braille? Is it acceptable at all 
to
have these devices without braille as they are meant for the purpose of 
the

blind and it has been established that blind are more successful if they
learn braille? Even if they well their devices without Braille, is it
acceptable that they charge so much extra for their Braille note takers? I
would like some comments on that.
Now, you may say that it's okay charge me extra but give me a better 
braille

support but I am not sure if that will be acceptable to those who seem to
speak for all of us with regard to braille.
I am sorry I do not want to cause any debate about this issue on this 
list,

but when someone linked with blindness "speciality" devices and software
suggest that if apple has come in to screen reading support , it has to be
perfect, I find myself very skeptical about the added justiification about
survival of braille and literacy etc. True apple's braille support is not
perfect, but it will be wrong to assume that a dedicated note taker is 
going

to perform any better for you than an I device with a braille display.
braille note takers are improving but they are not still the paragons of
perfection. the makers of those devices claim that they are fully 
functional
computers, those who have those note takers know that they are anything 
but.

They are still slow, clunky and love to hang from time to time. I would
suggest to schedule a meeting with an organization that sells these note
takers, and work on them for an hour or so. make sure to try their web
browser, and their capacity to play large books. and then decide about
purchasing a dedicated note taker.


Sent from my iPhone


On Jun 20, 2015, at 10:29 PM, denise avant 
wrote:

Hello all,
Sometimes I wonder if just because we ask Apple to provide better Braille
display  support, people think we are unnecessarily critical  of Apple. I
am forever grateful to Apple for building in accessibility to all of its
products. What Apple has done over the last six years is positively
wonderful. I never thought I’d be able to do so many things with a visual
device, and pay the same price as everyone else.  But that does not mean
that blind people cannot and should not point out a flaw and demand 
better

in a product. I listen to other podcasts having nothing to do with
accessibility and Apple, and the sighted community is not hesitant to say
when something needs to work better.
If one of the screen reader companies fails to provide proper Braille
display support in Windows, those of us, who use Windows are all over the
company. Requesting good Braille input and output on an Apple device is
not a ridiculous one. apple is the only one who can make the braille
display support better. I don’t know if Apple cannot or will not make the
Braille experience better. But voiceover belongs to apple, and I applaude
th

RE: Replacing Braille Notetaker with iDevice

[Cristóbal]

Somewhat back to the original inquiry, if Braille is such a vital part of the 
job, and if you’re an experienced Windows based screen reader, then maybe 
consider looking into one of those windows based tablets. Dell Venue or Toshiba 
Encore for example. A 2gb model wont’ run you more than $250.00 and probably 
less if you really hunt for a deal or don’t’ mind going refurbished or used. 
Apple is great and all, but perhaps in a circumstance like this, for practicle 
purposes, going for more robust and reliable Braille support may be the way to 
go. Perhaps use cloud based services in order to have as much synchronicity on 
Windows and i-devices as well. Perhaps not ideal since you’d be talking about a 
totally separate device and reliance on Internet access, but there you go.

 

 

From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Paul Hunt
Sent: Sunday, June 21, 2015 11:45 AM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: Replacing Braille Notetaker with iDevice

 

Hello Jonnathan. I have two questions for you.

1. When using a focus 40 blue with IOS devices, does the focus ever lock up 
when you are writing braille?  Do you have a 16 32 or 64 bit IOS device?

2. Does Apple have to write drivers for each braille display? What part do the 
braille display manufacturers play in making sure their devices work with IOS? 
I'm asking you because you were vice president of Hardware products with 
Freedom Scientific so your experience here may halp us in our advocacy efforts.

As far as the Humanware Firmware update is concerned, it did nothing to resolve 
the problem of the Brailliant locking up.

Thanks so much.

 

Paul

 

From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Jonathan Mosen
Sent: Sunday, June 21, 2015 7:35 AM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Replacing Braille Notetaker with iDevice

 

Hi Paul, I wish I had a better answer other than continuing to write to Apple 
Accessibility, and putting pressure on via those who make the purchasing 
decisions about these devices.

We have to stand firm and let them know the implementation isn't fit for 
purpose.

You're absolutely on the right track with your diagnosis. If your display is 
working fine with other solutions such as a laptop, then clearly we're dealing 
with a driver issue, and Apple writes all the drivers to talk to the various 
Braille displays. No matter what Braille display we're using, we're going to 
have the contracted input issues because they're a function of iOS.

I think frustration is mounting because people have been pointing out these 
issues for some years now.

One thing that hasn't yet been done, and in my view should be, is an Applevis 
campaign of the month. I've not seen such a campaign for a while now, but 
Applevis has gone after third-party developers who've provided a less than 
optimal experience for VO users. So with something as critical as our very 
literacy, this is an issue that warrants the site's serious attention in my 
opinion.

Jonathan Mosen,

Mosen Consulting

Blindness technology information, eBooks and training

http://Mosen.org


On 21/06/2015, at 11:31 pm, Paul Hunt  wrote:

Hello everybody. I would like to make this discussion practical. I have chosen 
not to purchase a dedicated notetaker when a laptop and screen reader give me 
more features more timely and at a lower price. Sometimes I don't want to carry 
a laptop. Since Apple has built braille display support into Voiceover, I 
expect it to be properly implemented and to work flawlessly.

I own a Humanware Brailliant BI 40 and a 16 gig iPhone 5S. I can read all day 
long but when I write, the BI 40 locks up and by the time I recover I've missed 
some notes during meetings, etc. I've tried to work with both companies. 
Instead of solving the problem, they are blaming each other. Since Apple has 
the resources and controls the environment I expect Apple to take the lead and 
I expect Humanware to work with Apple to resolve the issue. How can we promptly 
get their attention when the usual channels of communication don't work?

On Jun 21, 2015, at 12:20 AM, Jonathan Mosen  wrote:

Tara, yet again you are misrepresenting my comments.

In saying that Apple has chosen to be a screen reader company, I am not saying 
they shouldn't have, and I think I made that very clear. Like many people on 
this list, my life is enriched every day by the fact that Apple has chosen to 
be a screen reader company. And you can find many books and blog posts I've 
written, as well as media interviews I've done, where I make this point.

I am saying, however, that they should be held to no lesser standard than any 
other screen reader company. When Apple developed their own Maps app in iOS 6, 
this made them a navigation company. They blew it, big time, consumers 
objected, and Apple made a course correction. That

RE: Replacing Braille Notetaker with iDevice

[Paul Hunt]

Hello Jonnathan. I have two questions for you.

1. When using a focus 40 blue with IOS devices, does the focus ever lock up 
when you are writing braille?  Do you have a 16 32 or 64 bit IOS device?

2. Does Apple have to write drivers for each braille display? What part do the 
braille display manufacturers play in making sure their devices work with IOS? 
I'm asking you because you were vice president of Hardware products with 
Freedom Scientific so your experience here may halp us in our advocacy efforts.

As far as the Humanware Firmware update is concerned, it did nothing to resolve 
the problem of the Brailliant locking up.

Thanks so much.

 

Paul

 

From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Jonathan Mosen
Sent: Sunday, June 21, 2015 7:35 AM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Replacing Braille Notetaker with iDevice

 

Hi Paul, I wish I had a better answer other than continuing to write to Apple 
Accessibility, and putting pressure on via those who make the purchasing 
decisions about these devices.

We have to stand firm and let them know the implementation isn't fit for 
purpose.

You're absolutely on the right track with your diagnosis. If your display is 
working fine with other solutions such as a laptop, then clearly we're dealing 
with a driver issue, and Apple writes all the drivers to talk to the various 
Braille displays. No matter what Braille display we're using, we're going to 
have the contracted input issues because they're a function of iOS.

I think frustration is mounting because people have been pointing out these 
issues for some years now.

One thing that hasn't yet been done, and in my view should be, is an Applevis 
campaign of the month. I've not seen such a campaign for a while now, but 
Applevis has gone after third-party developers who've provided a less than 
optimal experience for VO users. So with something as critical as our very 
literacy, this is an issue that warrants the site's serious attention in my 
opinion.

Jonathan Mosen,

Mosen Consulting

Blindness technology information, eBooks and training

http://Mosen.org


On 21/06/2015, at 11:31 pm, Paul Hunt mailto:prhu...@att.net> 
> wrote:

Hello everybody. I would like to make this discussion practical. I have chosen 
not to purchase a dedicated notetaker when a laptop and screen reader give me 
more features more timely and at a lower price. Sometimes I don't want to carry 
a laptop. Since Apple has built braille display support into Voiceover, I 
expect it to be properly implemented and to work flawlessly.

I own a Humanware Brailliant BI 40 and a 16 gig iPhone 5S. I can read all day 
long but when I write, the BI 40 locks up and by the time I recover I've missed 
some notes during meetings, etc. I've tried to work with both companies. 
Instead of solving the problem, they are blaming each other. Since Apple has 
the resources and controls the environment I expect Apple to take the lead and 
I expect Humanware to work with Apple to resolve the issue. How can we promptly 
get their attention when the usual channels of communication don't work?

On Jun 21, 2015, at 12:20 AM, Jonathan Mosen mailto:jmo...@mosen.org> > wrote:

Tara, yet again you are misrepresenting my comments.

In saying that Apple has chosen to be a screen reader company, I am not saying 
they shouldn't have, and I think I made that very clear. Like many people on 
this list, my life is enriched every day by the fact that Apple has chosen to 
be a screen reader company. And you can find many books and blog posts I've 
written, as well as media interviews I've done, where I make this point.

I am saying, however, that they should be held to no lesser standard than any 
other screen reader company. When Apple developed their own Maps app in iOS 6, 
this made them a navigation company. They blew it, big time, consumers 
objected, and Apple made a course correction. That's because, quite rightly, 
consumers held Apple to the same standard that they did other maps providers.

Let me reiterate that I don't beleive a notetaker is the best choice in all 
situations. A good PC or Windows tablet will be far cheaper, and in some cases, 
far better, for many people.

 

Jonathan Mosen,

Mosen Consulting

Blindness technology information, eBooks and training

http://Mosen.org


On 21/06/2015, at 4:19 pm, TaraPrakash mailto:taraprak...@gmail.com> > wrote:

All the points about the utility of Braille are well taken, Jonathan's concern 
about survival about Braille, and that those who know Braille are  more 
successful in employment field is also agreeable to me (Even if I am not sure 
the source of this statistics that Jonathan quoted in his response addressed to 
me..)

The problem for me is his assertion that Apple has decided to become a screen 
reader company etc  What I read in that 

Re: Replacing Braille Notetaker with iDevice

[Paul Hunt]

 vvested interest in 
>>>>>>>> bringing in the braille issue with some emotions about survival and 
>>>>>>>> identity. 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On Jun 20, 2015, at 2:17 PM, Alex Hall  wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> What I've found is that I don't need braille output at all. Please 
>>>>>>>>> understand this is *my* opinion and situation, and I kknow everyone's 
>>>>>>>>> is different. I'm not telling you what you should do, just offering 
>>>>>>>>> my observations, for what they're worth.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> I used a notetaker in school and college, but slowly used it less and 
>>>>>>>>> less. Today, I use a Macbook Air and iPhone for everything. Sure, 
>>>>>>>>> sometimes it's not quite as efficient at certain things, but it more 
>>>>>>>>> than makes up for that in the app selection and raw horsepower. Plus, 
>>>>>>>>> the efficiency offered by Dropbox, iCloud, Handoff, and other cloud 
>>>>>>>>> services can't be forgotten; sure, typing your notes into a notetaker 
>>>>>>>>> might be a few seconds faster, but you'll have to spend more time 
>>>>>>>>> syncing up those notes to your computer later. With my setup, I can 
>>>>>>>>> type notes on either device and have them appear instantly on the 
>>>>>>>>> other, and with braille screen input or Mbraille on iOS, I can do it 
>>>>>>>>> in braille.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> A lot of it comes down to what you'll need and how you operate. As 
>>>>>>>>> you said, the central problem is that a display plus an iOS device is 
>>>>>>>>> cheaper, more modular, more powerful, and more versatile. However, a 
>>>>>>>>> dedicated notetaker is more efficient, for certain tasks, and can 
>>>>>>>>> more easily be used on the go or in noisy situations. Unfortunately, 
>>>>>>>>> there's no perfect solution to the problem right now.
>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 20, 2015, at 10:49 AM, Joe  wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Jonathan,
>>>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>>> Excellent blog post as always. Only, while I agree children are 
>>>>>>>>>> crucial, adult professionals should receive equal consideration. I 
>>>>>>>>>> was beginning to lean toward using a Braille display with an iDevice 
>>>>>>>>>> as a viable solution, but your points give me pause. I need to be 
>>>>>>>>>> able to be as productive as I can be using Braille on a dedicated 
>>>>>>>>>> notetaker. The apps on the more sophisticated Braille Sense are 
>>>>>>>>>> great but still limited. That means I could go for a compromise, 
>>>>>>>>>> purchasing one of the awkward hybrids like the Braille Edge or 
>>>>>>>>>> VarioUltra, but it doesn’t seem as though I could fully harness the 
>>>>>>>>>> horse power of the iDevice if the interaction between display and 
>>>>>>>>>> iOS is efficient. Any further thoughts welcomed. My point here isn’t 
>>>>>>>>>> to stir up a debate of notetakers versus displays. I need to be 
>>>>>>>>>> productive on the move. A full notetaker can be cost-prohibitive. A 
>>>>>>>>>> display doesn’t seem to be the most efficient option. LOL I thought 
>>>>>>>>>> we’d made a little more progress.
>>>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>>> Joe
>>>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Musings of a Work in Progress:
>>>>>>>>>> www.JoeOrozco.com/
>>>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe
>>>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>

Re: Replacing Braille Notetaker with iDevice

['Sandratomkins' via VIPhone]

ibility to let purchasers, who may not have to live with the 
> consequences of their decisions, know that Apple are not yet delivering in 
> the area of contracted Braille input, for all the good they have done 
> elsewhere.
> And rather than defend the notetaker paradigm, as I indicated in my blog 
> post, a PC with a Braille display is an absolutely viable option, far more so 
> than an Apple product is at present.
> Jonathan Mosen
> Mosen Consulting
> Blindness technology eBooks, tutorials and training
> http://Mosen.org
> 
>> On 21/06/2015, at 7:35 am, TaraPrakash  wrote:
>> 
>> Yet, this is the majority opinion. Some people may be more worried about 
>> braille which is a good thing to have as an option. and blind children must 
>> have the option to learn braille. but somehow it's apple's responsibility to 
>> keep the braille alive, is disingenuous in my opinion. your 6,500 device is 
>> not fast or durable or efficient enough even for the blind as apple devices 
>> have become.  those who work in the field of assistive devices have their 
>> vvested interest in bringing in the braille issue with some emotions about 
>> survival and identity. 
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Jun 20, 2015, at 2:17 PM, Alex Hall  wrote:
>>> 
>>> What I've found is that I don't need braille output at all. Please 
>>> understand this is *my* opinion and situation, and I kknow everyone's is 
>>> different. I'm not telling you what you should do, just offering my 
>>> observations, for what they're worth.
>>> 
>>> I used a notetaker in school and college, but slowly used it less and less. 
>>> Today, I use a Macbook Air and iPhone for everything. Sure, sometimes it's 
>>> not quite as efficient at certain things, but it more than makes up for 
>>> that in the app selection and raw horsepower. Plus, the efficiency offered 
>>> by Dropbox, iCloud, Handoff, and other cloud services can't be forgotten; 
>>> sure, typing your notes into a notetaker might be a few seconds faster, but 
>>> you'll have to spend more time syncing up those notes to your computer 
>>> later. With my setup, I can type notes on either device and have them 
>>> appear instantly on the other, and with braille screen input or Mbraille on 
>>> iOS, I can do it in braille.
>>> 
>>> A lot of it comes down to what you'll need and how you operate. As you 
>>> said, the central problem is that a display plus an iOS device is cheaper, 
>>> more modular, more powerful, and more versatile. However, a dedicated 
>>> notetaker is more efficient, for certain tasks, and can more easily be used 
>>> on the go or in noisy situations. Unfortunately, there's no perfect 
>>> solution to the problem right now.
>>>> On Jun 20, 2015, at 10:49 AM, Joe  wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Jonathan,
>>>>  
>>>> Excellent blog post as always. Only, while I agree children are crucial, 
>>>> adult professionals should receive equal consideration. I was beginning to 
>>>> lean toward using a Braille display with an iDevice as a viable solution, 
>>>> but your points give me pause. I need to be able to be as productive as I 
>>>> can be using Braille on a dedicated notetaker. The apps on the more 
>>>> sophisticated Braille Sense are great but still limited. That means I 
>>>> could go for a compromise, purchasing one of the awkward hybrids like the 
>>>> Braille Edge or VarioUltra, but it doesn’t seem as though I could fully 
>>>> harness the horse power of the iDevice if the interaction between display 
>>>> and iOS is efficient. Any further thoughts welcomed. My point here isn’t 
>>>> to stir up a debate of notetakers versus displays. I need to be productive 
>>>> on the move. A full notetaker can be cost-prohibitive. A display doesn’t 
>>>> seem to be the most efficient option. LOL I thought we’d made a little 
>>>> more progress.
>>>>  
>>>> Joe
>>>>  
>>>> --
>>>> Musings of a Work in Progress:
>>>> www.JoeOrozco.com/
>>>>  
>>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe
>>>>  
>>>> From: viphone@googlegroups.com[mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf 
>>>> Of Jonathan Mosen
>>>> Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2015 1:32 AM
>>>> To: viphone@googlegroups.com
>>>> Subject: Re: Replacing Braille Notetaker with iDevice
>>>>  
>>&g

Re: Replacing Braille Notetaker with iDevice

[Jonathan Mosen]

der if just because we ask Apple to provide better 
>>>>>>> Braille display  support, people think we are unnecessarily critical  
>>>>>>> of Apple. I am forever grateful to Apple for building in accessibility 
>>>>>>> to all of its products. What Apple has done over the last six years is 
>>>>>>> positively wonderful. I never thought I’d be able to do so many things 
>>>>>>> with a visual device, and pay the same price as everyone else.  But 
>>>>>>> that does not mean that blind people cannot and should not point out a 
>>>>>>> flaw and demand better in a product. I listen to other podcasts having 
>>>>>>> nothing to do with accessibility and Apple, and the sighted community 
>>>>>>> is not hesitant to say when something needs to work better. 
>>>>>>> If one of the screen reader companies fails to provide proper Braille 
>>>>>>> display support in Windows, those of us, who use Windows are all over 
>>>>>>> the company. Requesting good Braille input and output on an Apple 
>>>>>>> device is not a ridiculous one. apple is the only one who can make the 
>>>>>>> braille display support better. I don’t know if Apple cannot or will 
>>>>>>> not make the Braille experience better. But voiceover belongs to apple, 
>>>>>>> and I applaude those who are willing to stand up and ask for better.
>>>>>>> Jonathan talks about the children all of the time. But blind adults 
>>>>>>> need to be literate as well. 
>>>>>>>  Perhaps people have their own reasons for wanting to simply rely on 
>>>>>>> speech output. but I know there are times when people who cannot see 
>>>>>>> well enough to read the screen need to use Braille.
>>>>>>> If someone has a hearing impairment in addition to blindness, then a 
>>>>>>> Braille display with an Apple device may be essential to using the 
>>>>>>> device.
>>>>>>> Also, there may be times when you need to read and write Braille 
>>>>>>> without disturbing others or having the constant feedback of the speech.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Jun 20, 2015, at 2:35 PM, TaraPrakash >>>>>>> <mailto:taraprak...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Yet, this is the majority opinion. Some people may be more worried 
>>>>>>>> about braille which is a good thing to have as an option. and blind 
>>>>>>>> children must have the option to learn braille. but somehow it's 
>>>>>>>> apple's responsibility to keep the braille alive, is disingenuous in 
>>>>>>>> my opinion. your 6,500 device is not fast or durable or efficient 
>>>>>>>> enough even for the blind as apple devices have become.  those who 
>>>>>>>> work in the field of assistive devices have their vvested interest in 
>>>>>>>> bringing in the braille issue with some emotions about survival and 
>>>>>>>> identity. 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Jun 20, 2015, at 2:17 PM, Alex Hall >>>>>>> <mailto:mehg...@icloud.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> What I've found is that I don't need braille output at all. Please 
>>>>>>>>> understand this is *my* opinion and situation, and I kknow everyone's 
>>>>>>>>> is different. I'm not telling you what you should do, just offering 
>>>>>>>>> my observations, for what they're worth.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> I used a notetaker in school and college, but slowly used it less and 
>>>>>>>>> less. Today, I use a Macbook Air and iPhone for everything. Sure, 
>>>>>>>>> sometimes it's not quite as efficient at certain things, but it more 
>>>>>>>>> than makes up for that in the app selection and raw horsepower. Plus, 
>>>>>>>>> the efficiency offered by Dropbox, iCloud, Handoff, and other cloud 
>>>>>>>>> services can't be forgotten; sure, typing

Re: Replacing Braille Notetaker with iDevice

[TaraPrakash]

t;>>>>> apple's responsibility to keep the braille alive, is disingenuous in my 
>>>>>>> opinion. your 6,500 device is not fast or durable or efficient enough 
>>>>>>> even for the blind as apple devices have become.  those who work in the 
>>>>>>> field of assistive devices have their vvested interest in bringing in 
>>>>>>> the braille issue with some emotions about survival and identity. 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Jun 20, 2015, at 2:17 PM, Alex Hall  wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> What I've found is that I don't need braille output at all. Please 
>>>>>>>> understand this is *my* opinion and situation, and I kknow everyone's 
>>>>>>>> is different. I'm not telling you what you should do, just offering my 
>>>>>>>> observations, for what they're worth.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I used a notetaker in school and college, but slowly used it less and 
>>>>>>>> less. Today, I use a Macbook Air and iPhone for everything. Sure, 
>>>>>>>> sometimes it's not quite as efficient at certain things, but it more 
>>>>>>>> than makes up for that in the app selection and raw horsepower. Plus, 
>>>>>>>> the efficiency offered by Dropbox, iCloud, Handoff, and other cloud 
>>>>>>>> services can't be forgotten; sure, typing your notes into a notetaker 
>>>>>>>> might be a few seconds faster, but you'll have to spend more time 
>>>>>>>> syncing up those notes to your computer later. With my setup, I can 
>>>>>>>> type notes on either device and have them appear instantly on the 
>>>>>>>> other, and with braille screen input or Mbraille on iOS, I can do it 
>>>>>>>> in braille.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> A lot of it comes down to what you'll need and how you operate. As you 
>>>>>>>> said, the central problem is that a display plus an iOS device is 
>>>>>>>> cheaper, more modular, more powerful, and more versatile. However, a 
>>>>>>>> dedicated notetaker is more efficient, for certain tasks, and can more 
>>>>>>>> easily be used on the go or in noisy situations. Unfortunately, 
>>>>>>>> there's no perfect solution to the problem right now.
>>>>>>>>> On Jun 20, 2015, at 10:49 AM, Joe  wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Jonathan,
>>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>> Excellent blog post as always. Only, while I agree children are 
>>>>>>>>> crucial, adult professionals should receive equal consideration. I 
>>>>>>>>> was beginning to lean toward using a Braille display with an iDevice 
>>>>>>>>> as a viable solution, but your points give me pause. I need to be 
>>>>>>>>> able to be as productive as I can be using Braille on a dedicated 
>>>>>>>>> notetaker. The apps on the more sophisticated Braille Sense are great 
>>>>>>>>> but still limited. That means I could go for a compromise, purchasing 
>>>>>>>>> one of the awkward hybrids like the Braille Edge or VarioUltra, but 
>>>>>>>>> it doesn’t seem as though I could fully harness the horse power of 
>>>>>>>>> the iDevice if the interaction between display and iOS is efficient. 
>>>>>>>>> Any further thoughts welcomed. My point here isn’t to stir up a 
>>>>>>>>> debate of notetakers versus displays. I need to be productive on the 
>>>>>>>>> move. A full notetaker can be cost-prohibitive. A display doesn’t 
>>>>>>>>> seem to be the most efficient option. LOL I thought we’d made a 
>>>>>>>>> little more progress.
>>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>> Joe
>>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Musings of a Work in Progress:
>>>>>>>>> www.JoeOrozco.com/
>>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>&

Re: Replacing Braille Notetaker with iDevice

[Steve]

Look for the caveat regarding the U2 at the end of my post.  It will be below 
the answer to your last question.

- Original Message - 
From: Joe 
To: viphone@googlegroups.com 
Sent: Friday, June 19, 2015 5:24 PM
Subject: Replacing Braille Notetaker with iDevice


Hi, I'm curious to hear from people who have replaced their Braille
notetaker with an iDevice. I've been toying with the idea of investing in a
U2 for reading books, taking notes and performing similar quick tasks.

Questions:

1. I've heard there are displays that let you type text and then send to the 
iDevice in one burst. I don't understand the mechanics of this, but what are
the displays you know that do this?

I think you are referring to Bluetooth; where the display is paired with the 
iPhone.  

Braillesense U2, U2Mini, 18-cell model; 
Humanware Braillenote Apex 18 and 32-cell models; 
Baum VarioUltra, 20-cell and 40-cell models, these have the distinction of 
ability to connect to four devices simultaneously;
Freedom Scientific Focus 14 and 40 cell models;
APH Refresh-a-Braille 18-cell model;
BraillePen 12-cell model.

I do not have personal experience with the APH or the BraillePen.  I have seen 
some negative reviews of the Braille Pen though.


2. Is Braille input in iOS as dreadful as some people have made it out to be? I 
don't mind learning various keystrokes, but I do mind delays in transmition.

In my experience, no.  There will be a slight delay--probably less than a 
second.

3. Is there a means to read BRF in iOS?

Yes, NLS Bard will read .brf titles.  
Other options would be AccessNote from AFB, or renaming the .brf file to a .txt 
and importing it into the iPhone with Dropbox.

4. What 32-cell display would you personally recommend?
Since each display has its own feature set and command distinctions, I am 
hesitant to recommend one over another.  A lot of it could be personal 
preference.

I am hesitant to recommend the HIMS models at this time; look on their listserv 
and note that many people are having difficulties with the latest release of 
their software causing the notetaker to become almost non-functional.  You need 
to do hard resets and re-install the software.  After you do that, it works for 
awhile and then the problems re-occur.  This is with there software version 
8.2, build release April 27, 2015.  

My wife has been in communication and HIMS USA is aware of the problem, but it 
is uncertain when a corrected release will be issued by the powers that be in 
South Korea.  But, there are a lot of users who aren't happy particularly if 
they use it as a GPS device and are in the middle of a rooute when it locks up; 
or people relying on it for work or college.

I am an Apex user.  In my view, I like the feature set of the HIMS products 
better and the interface makes more sense to me because it is more like working 
with Windows.  But, dot quality for reading Braille is better on the Humanware 
products; and whereas my wife has had to have her unit serviced several times 
for cell failure; my Apex is going strong after five years with no repairs.

Steve
Lansing, MI


Thanks guys for any help.

Joe

--
Musings of a Work in Progress:
www.JoeOrozco.com/

Twitter: @ScribblingJoe


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Re: Replacing Braille Notetaker with iDevice

[Flor Lynch]

I use Standard English Braille, and on iOS I prefer to use eight-dot braille 
input, and Contracted Braille output. Generally less errors that way. 

From: Annie Skov Nielsen 
Sent: Sunday, June 21, 2015 3:43 PM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com 
Subject: Re: Replacing Braille Notetaker with iDevice
Hi David. 

I will have to disagree with you here. I am as I am sure you know danish. We 
have never had contracted braille in jaws, but we have 8 dots 
braille/computerbraille. I agree that we can easily type in computerbraille, 
and it would probably be the best thing to do, also to keep your spelling in 
good shape, but when you are reading, I feel that contracted braille really is 
a big advantage. I also see it on the mac and IPhone, it helps me a lot that I 
can get the output in contracted braille, I really feel that the great thing 
with IPhone and braille display is that you can type in e.g. 8dots 
mode/computermode and you can read the output in contracted braille, this is 
where I feel braille on IPhone works better than on notetakers. In my 
experience the output contracted mode is a major step forward there are bugs 
yes I know, but it also a great thing for people with smaller display. I have 
always thought long displays are better, but I am considering that it maybe in 
many ways would be better with shorter displays, but if you have a shorter 
display contracted braille as output is a major advantage.

I agree with Jonathan that braille could be much better in IOS. In fact I have 
some questions for you english speaking users, but that will be in a later mail.

Best regards Annie.

  Den 20/06/2015 kl. 11.35 skrev David Chittenden :

  Jonathan,

  I respectfully disagree with you about braille. Contracted braille is like 
print shorthand. It became mainstream because braille is so large on paper, so 
it was developed to drastically reduce the footprint of braille.

  Now that we have electronic braille, we should be learning and teaching 
computer braille rather than noncontracted and contracted literary braille. 
This would give us blind people parity with sighted people. We would not need 
to rely, in any way, on contracted braille translators which cause much 
complications with computer interfaces.

  A few years ago, the AFB published a study where some blind children were 
taught using computer braille. There was no difference in learning or 
information retention between those children and children who are taught using 
contracted literary braille.

  David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA 
  Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
  Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
  Sent from my iPhone

  On 20 Jun 2015, at 17:31, Jonathan Mosen  wrote:


Hi Joe, I want to address your question about Braille input in iOS. In my 
view it is not fit for purpose. I don't know what it is about Braille input 
Apple doesn't get, whether the blind people they consult with about these 
things aren't Braille users, or what the deal is. They have the financial and 
technical resources to fix the issues if they were of a mind to, but sadly it 
appears we are going to see another major release of iOS without appropriately 
robust Braille input being available. 
As you know, some manufacturers have chosen to do Apple's work for them, 
and work around the woeful Braille input in iOS by keeping text in a buffer, 
then sending it to iOS all at once. I guess this is a pragmatic response, but 
it also let's Apple off the hook. Apple is a mainstream technology company, but 
they have also made the choice to be a screen reader company, and I don't 
believe they should be held to any lesser standard than any other screen reader 
company.
They are receiving awards and praise and I don't begrudge them any of it. 
It is well deserved. But those of us who are passionate about not just the 
spread of Braille, but the very survival of Braille, need to stand up and be 
counted.
There's no doubt that notetaker products can no longer keep up with the 
phrenetic pace of technology, if they ever really could. So just in terms of 
the range of things that can be done, getting an iThing is probably a better 
bet than a notetaker. And some adults may well be confident enough in their 
Braille skills to work around the shortcomings in Apple's Braille input.
What really concerns me though is the kids, and in this case I believe 
notetakers will have a place unless and until Apple get it together when it 
comes to Braille input.
I am pasting below a blog post I wrote a couple of years ago called "The 
Apple Braille Crisis, it's got to be fixed for the kids". While some minor 
changes were made in iOS 8, it is mostly still relevant. Here it is.
People from all walks of life, not just blind people, can get extremely 
partisan about their technology preferences. Anything their team does is 
unquestionably wonderful, while anything another company does is rubbish, 
simply by virtue of the

Re: Replacing Braille Notetaker with iDevice

[Annie Skov Nielsen]

gt; is different. I'm not telling you what you should do, just offering my 
>>>>>>>> observations, for what they're worth.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I used a notetaker in school and college, but slowly used it less and 
>>>>>>>> less. Today, I use a Macbook Air and iPhone for everything. Sure, 
>>>>>>>> sometimes it's not quite as efficient at certain things, but it more 
>>>>>>>> than makes up for that in the app selection and raw horsepower. Plus, 
>>>>>>>> the efficiency offered by Dropbox, iCloud, Handoff, and other cloud 
>>>>>>>> services can't be forgotten; sure, typing your notes into a notetaker 
>>>>>>>> might be a few seconds faster, but you'll have to spend more time 
>>>>>>>> syncing up those notes to your computer later. With my setup, I can 
>>>>>>>> type notes on either device and have them appear instantly on the 
>>>>>>>> other, and with braille screen input or Mbraille on iOS, I can do it 
>>>>>>>> in braille.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> A lot of it comes down to what you'll need and how you operate. As you 
>>>>>>>> said, the central problem is that a display plus an iOS device is 
>>>>>>>> cheaper, more modular, more powerful, and more versatile. However, a 
>>>>>>>> dedicated notetaker is more efficient, for certain tasks, and can more 
>>>>>>>> easily be used on the go or in noisy situations. Unfortunately, 
>>>>>>>> there's no perfect solution to the problem right now.
>>>>>>>>> On Jun 20, 2015, at 10:49 AM, Joe >>>>>>>> <mailto:jsoro...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Jonathan,
>>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>> Excellent blog post as always. Only, while I agree children are 
>>>>>>>>> crucial, adult professionals should receive equal consideration. I 
>>>>>>>>> was beginning to lean toward using a Braille display with an iDevice 
>>>>>>>>> as a viable solution, but your points give me pause. I need to be 
>>>>>>>>> able to be as productive as I can be using Braille on a dedicated 
>>>>>>>>> notetaker. The apps on the more sophisticated Braille Sense are great 
>>>>>>>>> but still limited. That means I could go for a compromise, purchasing 
>>>>>>>>> one of the awkward hybrids like the Braille Edge or VarioUltra, but 
>>>>>>>>> it doesn’t seem as though I could fully harness the horse power of 
>>>>>>>>> the iDevice if the interaction between display and iOS is efficient. 
>>>>>>>>> Any further thoughts welcomed. My point here isn’t to stir up a 
>>>>>>>>> debate of notetakers versus displays. I need to be productive on the 
>>>>>>>>> move. A full notetaker can be cost-prohibitive. A display doesn’t 
>>>>>>>>> seem to be the most efficient option. LOL I thought we’d made a 
>>>>>>>>> little more progress.
>>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>> Joe
>>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Musings of a Work in Progress:
>>>>>>>>> www.JoeOrozco.com/ <http://www.joeorozco.com/>
>>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe
>>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>> From: viphone@googlegroups.com <mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com> 
>>>>>>>>> [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com <mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com>] 
>>>>>>>>> On Behalf Of Jonathan Mosen
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2015 1:32 AM
>>>>>>>>> To: viphone@googlegroups.com <mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com>
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Replacing Braille Notetaker with iDevice
>>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>> Hi Joe, I want to address your question about Braille input in iOS. 
>>>>>>>>> In my view it is not fit for purpose. I don't know what it is about 
>>>>

Re: Replacing Braille Notetaker with iDevice

[Annie Skov Nielsen]

Hi David.

I will have to disagree with you here. I am as I am sure you know danish. We 
have never had contracted braille in jaws, but we have 8 dots 
braille/computerbraille. I agree that we can easily type in computerbraille, 
and it would probably be the best thing to do, also to keep your spelling in 
good shape, but when you are reading, I feel that contracted braille really is 
a big advantage. I also see it on the mac and IPhone, it helps me a lot that I 
can get the output in contracted braille, I really feel that the great thing 
with IPhone and braille display is that you can type in e.g. 8dots 
mode/computermode and you can read the output in contracted braille, this is 
where I feel braille on IPhone works better than on notetakers. In my 
experience the output contracted mode is a major step forward there are bugs 
yes I know, but it also a great thing for people with smaller display. I have 
always thought long displays are better, but I am considering that it maybe in 
many ways would be better with shorter displays, but if you have a shorter 
display contracted braille as output is a major advantage.

I agree with Jonathan that braille could be much better in IOS. In fact I have 
some questions for you english speaking users, but that will be in a later mail.

Best regards Annie.
> Den 20/06/2015 kl. 11.35 skrev David Chittenden :
> 
> Jonathan,
> 
> I respectfully disagree with you about braille. Contracted braille is like 
> print shorthand. It became mainstream because braille is so large on paper, 
> so it was developed to drastically reduce the footprint of braille.
> 
> Now that we have electronic braille, we should be learning and teaching 
> computer braille rather than noncontracted and contracted literary braille. 
> This would give us blind people parity with sighted people. We would not need 
> to rely, in any way, on contracted braille translators which cause much 
> complications with computer interfaces.
> 
> A few years ago, the AFB published a study where some blind children were 
> taught using computer braille. There was no difference in learning or 
> information retention between those children and children who are taught 
> using contracted literary braille.
> 
> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com 
> Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On 20 Jun 2015, at 17:31, Jonathan Mosen  > wrote:
> 
>> Hi Joe, I want to address your question about Braille input in iOS. In my 
>> view it is not fit for purpose. I don't know what it is about Braille input 
>> Apple doesn't get, whether the blind people they consult with about these 
>> things aren't Braille users, or what the deal is. They have the financial 
>> and technical resources to fix the issues if they were of a mind to, but 
>> sadly it appears we are going to see another major release of iOS without 
>> appropriately robust Braille input being available.
>> As you know, some manufacturers have chosen to do Apple's work for them, and 
>> work around the woeful Braille input in iOS by keeping text in a buffer, 
>> then sending it to iOS all at once. I guess this is a pragmatic response, 
>> but it also let's Apple off the hook. Apple is a mainstream technology 
>> company, but they have also made the choice to be a screen reader company, 
>> and I don't believe they should be held to any lesser standard than any 
>> other screen reader company.
>> They are receiving awards and praise and I don't begrudge them any of it. It 
>> is well deserved. But those of us who are passionate about not just the 
>> spread of Braille, but the very survival of Braille, need to stand up and be 
>> counted.
>> There's no doubt that notetaker products can no longer keep up with the 
>> phrenetic pace of technology, if they ever really could. So just in terms of 
>> the range of things that can be done, getting an iThing is probably a better 
>> bet than a notetaker. And some adults may well be confident enough in their 
>> Braille skills to work around the shortcomings in Apple's Braille input.
>> What really concerns me though is the kids, and in this case I believe 
>> notetakers will have a place unless and until Apple get it together when it 
>> comes to Braille input.
>> I am pasting below a blog post I wrote a couple of years ago called "The 
>> Apple Braille Crisis, it's got to be fixed for the kids". While some minor 
>> changes were made in iOS 8, it is mostly still relevant. Here it is.
>> People from all walks of life, not just blind people, can get extremely 
>> partisan about their technology preferences. Anything their team does is 
>> unquestionably wonderful, while anything another company does is rubbish, 
>> simply by virtue of the fact that it’s the other guys who did it. If you 
>> criticise the company such people support, you’ve committed heresy.
>> As blind people, I don’t believe we have the luxury of being so childish. 
>>

Re: Replacing Braille Notetaker with iDevice

[Joe Quinn]

, and work on them for 
>>>>> an hour or so. make sure to try their web browser, and their capacity to 
>>>>> play large books. and then decide about purchasing a dedicated note taker.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Jun 20, 2015, at 10:29 PM, denise avant  
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Hello all,
>>>>>> Sometimes I wonder if just because we ask Apple to provide better 
>>>>>> Braille display  support, people think we are unnecessarily critical  of 
>>>>>> Apple. I am forever grateful to Apple for building in accessibility to 
>>>>>> all of its products. What Apple has done over the last six years is 
>>>>>> positively wonderful. I never thought I’d be able to do so many things 
>>>>>> with a visual device, and pay the same price as everyone else.  But that 
>>>>>> does not mean that blind people cannot and should not point out a flaw 
>>>>>> and demand better in a product. I listen to other podcasts having 
>>>>>> nothing to do with accessibility and Apple, and the sighted community is 
>>>>>> not hesitant to say when something needs to work better. 
>>>>>> If one of the screen reader companies fails to provide proper Braille 
>>>>>> display support in Windows, those of us, who use Windows are all over 
>>>>>> the company. Requesting good Braille input and output on an Apple device 
>>>>>> is not a ridiculous one. apple is the only one who can make the braille 
>>>>>> display support better. I don’t know if Apple cannot or will not make 
>>>>>> the Braille experience better. But voiceover belongs to apple, and I 
>>>>>> applaude those who are willing to stand up and ask for better.
>>>>>> Jonathan talks about the children all of the time. But blind adults need 
>>>>>> to be literate as well. 
>>>>>>  Perhaps people have their own reasons for wanting to simply rely on 
>>>>>> speech output. but I know there are times when people who cannot see 
>>>>>> well enough to read the screen need to use Braille.
>>>>>> If someone has a hearing impairment in addition to blindness, then a 
>>>>>> Braille display with an Apple device may be essential to using the 
>>>>>> device.
>>>>>> Also, there may be times when you need to read and write Braille without 
>>>>>> disturbing others or having the constant feedback of the speech.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Jun 20, 2015, at 2:35 PM, TaraPrakash  wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Yet, this is the majority opinion. Some people may be more worried 
>>>>>>> about braille which is a good thing to have as an option. and blind 
>>>>>>> children must have the option to learn braille. but somehow it's 
>>>>>>> apple's responsibility to keep the braille alive, is disingenuous in my 
>>>>>>> opinion. your 6,500 device is not fast or durable or efficient enough 
>>>>>>> even for the blind as apple devices have become.  those who work in the 
>>>>>>> field of assistive devices have their vvested interest in bringing in 
>>>>>>> the braille issue with some emotions about survival and identity. 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Jun 20, 2015, at 2:17 PM, Alex Hall  wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> What I've found is that I don't need braille output at all. Please 
>>>>>>>> understand this is *my* opinion and situation, and I kknow everyone's 
>>>>>>>> is different. I'm not telling you what you should do, just offering my 
>>>>>>>> observations, for what they're worth.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I used a notetaker in school and college, but slowly used it less and 
>>>>>>>> less. Today, I use a Macbook Air and iPhone for everything. Sure, 
>>>>>>>> sometimes it's not quite as efficient at certain things, but it more 
>>>>>>>> than makes up for that in the app selection and raw horsepower. Plus, 
>>>>>>>

Re: Replacing Braille Notetaker with iDevice

[Alex Hall]

se we ask Apple to provide better Braille 
>>>>> display  support, people think we are unnecessarily critical  of Apple. I 
>>>>> am forever grateful to Apple for building in accessibility to all of its 
>>>>> products. What Apple has done over the last six years is positively 
>>>>> wonderful. I never thought I’d be able to do so many things with a visual 
>>>>> device, and pay the same price as everyone else.  But that does not mean 
>>>>> that blind people cannot and should not point out a flaw and demand 
>>>>> better in a product. I listen to other podcasts having nothing to do with 
>>>>> accessibility and Apple, and the sighted community is not hesitant to say 
>>>>> when something needs to work better. 
>>>>> If one of the screen reader companies fails to provide proper Braille 
>>>>> display support in Windows, those of us, who use Windows are all over the 
>>>>> company. Requesting good Braille input and output on an Apple device is 
>>>>> not a ridiculous one. apple is the only one who can make the braille 
>>>>> display support better. I don’t know if Apple cannot or will not make the 
>>>>> Braille experience better. But voiceover belongs to apple, and I applaude 
>>>>> those who are willing to stand up and ask for better.
>>>>> Jonathan talks about the children all of the time. But blind adults need 
>>>>> to be literate as well. 
>>>>>  Perhaps people have their own reasons for wanting to simply rely on 
>>>>> speech output. but I know there are times when people who cannot see well 
>>>>> enough to read the screen need to use Braille.
>>>>> If someone has a hearing impairment in addition to blindness, then a 
>>>>> Braille display with an Apple device may be essential to using the device.
>>>>> Also, there may be times when you need to read and write Braille without 
>>>>> disturbing others or having the constant feedback of the speech.
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Jun 20, 2015, at 2:35 PM, TaraPrakash >>>>> <mailto:taraprak...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Yet, this is the majority opinion. Some people may be more worried about 
>>>>>> braille which is a good thing to have as an option. and blind children 
>>>>>> must have the option to learn braille. but somehow it's apple's 
>>>>>> responsibility to keep the braille alive, is disingenuous in my opinion. 
>>>>>> your 6,500 device is not fast or durable or efficient enough even for 
>>>>>> the blind as apple devices have become.  those who work in the field of 
>>>>>> assistive devices have their vvested interest in bringing in the braille 
>>>>>> issue with some emotions about survival and identity. 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Jun 20, 2015, at 2:17 PM, Alex Hall >>>>> <mailto:mehg...@icloud.com>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> What I've found is that I don't need braille output at all. Please 
>>>>>>> understand this is *my* opinion and situation, and I kknow everyone's 
>>>>>>> is different. I'm not telling you what you should do, just offering my 
>>>>>>> observations, for what they're worth.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I used a notetaker in school and college, but slowly used it less and 
>>>>>>> less. Today, I use a Macbook Air and iPhone for everything. Sure, 
>>>>>>> sometimes it's not quite as efficient at certain things, but it more 
>>>>>>> than makes up for that in the app selection and raw horsepower. Plus, 
>>>>>>> the efficiency offered by Dropbox, iCloud, Handoff, and other cloud 
>>>>>>> services can't be forgotten; sure, typing your notes into a notetaker 
>>>>>>> might be a few seconds faster, but you'll have to spend more time 
>>>>>>> syncing up those notes to your computer later. With my setup, I can 
>>>>>>> type notes on either device and have them appear instantly on the 
>>>>>>> other, and with braille screen input or Mbraille on iOS, I can do it in 
>>>>>>> braille.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>

Re: Replacing Braille Notetaker with iDevice

[Marianne Denning]

rate as well.
>>  Perhaps people have their own reasons for wanting to simply rely on
>> speech output. but I know there are times when people who cannot see well
>> enough to read the screen need to use Braille.
>> If someone has a hearing impairment in addition to blindness, then a
>> Braille display with an Apple device may be essential to using the
>> device.
>> Also, there may be times when you need to read and write Braille without
>> disturbing others or having the constant feedback of the speech.
>>
>>> On Jun 20, 2015, at 2:35 PM, TaraPrakash  wrote:
>>>
>>> Yet, this is the majority opinion. Some people may be more worried about
>>> braille which is a good thing to have as an option. and blind children
>>> must have the option to learn braille. but somehow it's apple's
>>> responsibility to keep the braille alive, is disingenuous in my opinion.
>>> your 6,500 device is not fast or durable or efficient enough even for the
>>> blind as apple devices have become.  those who work in the field of
>>> assistive devices have their vvested interest in bringing in the braille
>>> issue with some emotions about survival and identity.
>>>
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>>> On Jun 20, 2015, at 2:17 PM, Alex Hall  wrote:
>>>>
>>>> What I've found is that I don't need braille output at all. Please
>>>> understand this is *my* opinion and situation, and I kknow everyone's is
>>>> different. I'm not telling you what you should do, just offering my
>>>> observations, for what they're worth.
>>>>
>>>> I used a notetaker in school and college, but slowly used it less and
>>>> less. Today, I use a Macbook Air and iPhone for everything. Sure,
>>>> sometimes it's not quite as efficient at certain things, but it more
>>>> than makes up for that in the app selection and raw horsepower. Plus,
>>>> the efficiency offered by Dropbox, iCloud, Handoff, and other cloud
>>>> services can't be forgotten; sure, typing your notes into a notetaker
>>>> might be a few seconds faster, but you'll have to spend more time
>>>> syncing up those notes to your computer later. With my setup, I can type
>>>> notes on either device and have them appear instantly on the other, and
>>>> with braille screen input or Mbraille on iOS, I can do it in braille.
>>>>
>>>> A lot of it comes down to what you'll need and how you operate. As you
>>>> said, the central problem is that a display plus an iOS device is
>>>> cheaper, more modular, more powerful, and more versatile. However, a
>>>> dedicated notetaker is more efficient, for certain tasks, and can more
>>>> easily be used on the go or in noisy situations. Unfortunately, there's
>>>> no perfect solution to the problem right now.
>>>>> On Jun 20, 2015, at 10:49 AM, Joe  wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Jonathan,
>>>>>
>>>>> Excellent blog post as always. Only, while I agree children are
>>>>> crucial, adult professionals should receive equal consideration. I was
>>>>> beginning to lean toward using a Braille display with an iDevice as a
>>>>> viable solution, but your points give me pause. I need to be able to be
>>>>> as productive as I can be using Braille on a dedicated notetaker. The
>>>>> apps on the more sophisticated Braille Sense are great but still
>>>>> limited. That means I could go for a compromise, purchasing one of the
>>>>> awkward hybrids like the Braille Edge or VarioUltra, but it doesn’t
>>>>> seem as though I could fully harness the horse power of the iDevice if
>>>>> the interaction between display and iOS is efficient. Any further
>>>>> thoughts welcomed. My point here isn’t to stir up a debate of
>>>>> notetakers versus displays. I need to be productive on the move. A full
>>>>> notetaker can be cost-prohibitive. A display doesn’t seem to be the
>>>>> most efficient option. LOL I thought we’d made a little more progress.
>>>>>
>>>>> Joe
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Musings of a Work in Progress:
>>>>> www.JoeOrozco.com/
>>>>>
>>>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe
>>>>>
>>>>> From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On
>>>>> Behalf O

Re: Replacing Braille Notetaker with iDevice

[Marianne Denning]

Joe, part of the reason we are switching to UEB is so that it can
better respond to changes in print that have occurred rapidly since we
began using computers.  In theory, this should make it easier for
Apple to follow UEB rules in their computers and devices.

On 6/21/15, Joe Quinn  wrote:
> It does. I've almost been thinking of going back to the regular English
> braille instead of UEB just because it takes up less room. I hope Apple
> doesn't take out that option. Though they may, considering that everyone has
> switched to it by the time IOS 9  comes out.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Jun 20, 2015, at 4:04 PM, Alex Hall  wrote:
>>
>> Agreed; contracted braille is really important to me when I have to read
>> it. It's faster and, vitally in today's market of tiny cell counts, more
>> fits on one line. The OP asked specifically about 32-cell units, and if
>> you think about it, even those are quite small compared to what a sighted
>> person can see on an iPhone's screen. The more that can fit, the better. I
>> love UEB for removing the ambiguities, but the trade-off is that it takes
>> up more room, especially as you start using it for math or science.
>>> On Jun 20, 2015, at 4:32 PM, Jonathan Mosen  wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi David. I think this is a separate issue from what we are discussing. I
>>> disagree with you because as someone who must read a lot for public
>>> presentations and audio production work, I find contracted Braille helps
>>> me process information much more quickly than uncontracted Braille.
>>> That's important for fluency.
>>> But it's an interesting discussion. UEB has significantly reduced
>>> translation ambiguities. In the end though, this is a decision for blind
>>> people to make. Braille belongs to us. We should not be forced to alter
>>> our practices due to a single company's inability or unwillingness to get
>>> their Braille implementation right.
>>> Jonathan Mosen
>>> Mosen Consulting
>>> Blindness technology eBooks, tutorials and training
>>> http://Mosen.org
>>>
 On 20/06/2015, at 9:35 pm, David Chittenden 
 wrote:

 Jonathan,

 I respectfully disagree with you about braille. Contracted braille is
 like print shorthand. It became mainstream because braille is so large
 on paper, so it was developed to drastically reduce the footprint of
 braille.

 Now that we have electronic braille, we should be learning and teaching
 computer braille rather than noncontracted and contracted literary
 braille. This would give us blind people parity with sighted people. We
 would not need to rely, in any way, on contracted braille translators
 which cause much complications with computer interfaces.

 A few years ago, the AFB published a study where some blind children
 were taught using computer braille. There was no difference in learning
 or information retention between those children and children who are
 taught using contracted literary braille.

 David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
 Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
 Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
 Sent from my iPhone

> On 20 Jun 2015, at 17:31, Jonathan Mosen  wrote:
>
> Hi Joe, I want to address your question about Braille input in iOS. In
> my view it is not fit for purpose. I don't know what it is about
> Braille input Apple doesn't get, whether the blind people they consult
> with about these things aren't Braille users, or what the deal is. They
> have the financial and technical resources to fix the issues if they
> were of a mind to, but sadly it appears we are going to see another
> major release of iOS without appropriately robust Braille input being
> available.
> As you know, some manufacturers have chosen to do Apple's work for
> them, and work around the woeful Braille input in iOS by keeping text
> in a buffer, then sending it to iOS all at once. I guess this is a
> pragmatic response, but it also let's Apple off the hook. Apple is a
> mainstream technology company, but they have also made the choice to be
> a screen reader company, and I don't believe they should be held to any
> lesser standard than any other screen reader company.
> They are receiving awards and praise and I don't begrudge them any of
> it. It is well deserved. But those of us who are passionate about not
> just the spread of Braille, but the very survival of Braille, need to
> stand up and be counted.
> There's no doubt that notetaker products can no longer keep up with the
> phrenetic pace of technology, if they ever really could. So just in
> terms of the range of things that can be done, getting an iThing is
> probably a better bet than a notetaker. And some adults may well be
> confident enough in their Braille skills to work around the
> shortcomings in Apple's Braille input.
> What really concerns me though is the kids, and in this case I believe

Re: Replacing Braille Notetaker with iDevice

[Joe Quinn]

It does. I've almost been thinking of going back to the regular English braille 
instead of UEB just because it takes up less room. I hope Apple doesn't take 
out that option. Though they may, considering that everyone has switched to it 
by the time IOS 9  comes out.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jun 20, 2015, at 4:04 PM, Alex Hall  wrote:
> 
> Agreed; contracted braille is really important to me when I have to read it. 
> It's faster and, vitally in today's market of tiny cell counts, more fits on 
> one line. The OP asked specifically about 32-cell units, and if you think 
> about it, even those are quite small compared to what a sighted person can 
> see on an iPhone's screen. The more that can fit, the better. I love UEB for 
> removing the ambiguities, but the trade-off is that it takes up more room, 
> especially as you start using it for math or science.
>> On Jun 20, 2015, at 4:32 PM, Jonathan Mosen  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi David. I think this is a separate issue from what we are discussing. I 
>> disagree with you because as someone who must read a lot for public 
>> presentations and audio production work, I find contracted Braille helps me 
>> process information much more quickly than uncontracted Braille. That's 
>> important for fluency.
>> But it's an interesting discussion. UEB has significantly reduced 
>> translation ambiguities. In the end though, this is a decision for blind 
>> people to make. Braille belongs to us. We should not be forced to alter our 
>> practices due to a single company's inability or unwillingness to get their 
>> Braille implementation right.
>> Jonathan Mosen
>> Mosen Consulting
>> Blindness technology eBooks, tutorials and training
>> http://Mosen.org
>> 
>>> On 20/06/2015, at 9:35 pm, David Chittenden  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Jonathan,
>>> 
>>> I respectfully disagree with you about braille. Contracted braille is like 
>>> print shorthand. It became mainstream because braille is so large on paper, 
>>> so it was developed to drastically reduce the footprint of braille.
>>> 
>>> Now that we have electronic braille, we should be learning and teaching 
>>> computer braille rather than noncontracted and contracted literary braille. 
>>> This would give us blind people parity with sighted people. We would not 
>>> need to rely, in any way, on contracted braille translators which cause 
>>> much complications with computer interfaces.
>>> 
>>> A few years ago, the AFB published a study where some blind children were 
>>> taught using computer braille. There was no difference in learning or 
>>> information retention between those children and children who are taught 
>>> using contracted literary braille.
>>> 
>>> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
>>> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
>>> Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
 On 20 Jun 2015, at 17:31, Jonathan Mosen  wrote:
 
 Hi Joe, I want to address your question about Braille input in iOS. In my 
 view it is not fit for purpose. I don't know what it is about Braille 
 input Apple doesn't get, whether the blind people they consult with about 
 these things aren't Braille users, or what the deal is. They have the 
 financial and technical resources to fix the issues if they were of a mind 
 to, but sadly it appears we are going to see another major release of iOS 
 without appropriately robust Braille input being available.
 As you know, some manufacturers have chosen to do Apple's work for them, 
 and work around the woeful Braille input in iOS by keeping text in a 
 buffer, then sending it to iOS all at once. I guess this is a pragmatic 
 response, but it also let's Apple off the hook. Apple is a mainstream 
 technology company, but they have also made the choice to be a screen 
 reader company, and I don't believe they should be held to any lesser 
 standard than any other screen reader company.
 They are receiving awards and praise and I don't begrudge them any of it. 
 It is well deserved. But those of us who are passionate about not just the 
 spread of Braille, but the very survival of Braille, need to stand up and 
 be counted.
 There's no doubt that notetaker products can no longer keep up with the 
 phrenetic pace of technology, if they ever really could. So just in terms 
 of the range of things that can be done, getting an iThing is probably a 
 better bet than a notetaker. And some adults may well be confident enough 
 in their Braille skills to work around the shortcomings in Apple's Braille 
 input.
 What really concerns me though is the kids, and in this case I believe 
 notetakers will have a place unless and until Apple get it together when 
 it comes to Braille input.
 I am pasting below a blog post I wrote a couple of years ago called "The 
 Apple Braille Crisis, it's got to be fixed for the kids". While some minor 
 changes were made in iOS 8, it is mostly still relevant. Here it

Re: Replacing Braille Notetaker with iDevice

[Jonathan Mosen]

a good thing to have as an option. and blind children 
>>>>> must have the option to learn braille. but somehow it's apple's 
>>>>> responsibility to keep the braille alive, is disingenuous in my opinion. 
>>>>> your 6,500 device is not fast or durable or efficient enough even for the 
>>>>> blind as apple devices have become.  those who work in the field of 
>>>>> assistive devices have their vvested interest in bringing in the braille 
>>>>> issue with some emotions about survival and identity. 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Jun 20, 2015, at 2:17 PM, Alex Hall  wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> What I've found is that I don't need braille output at all. Please 
>>>>>> understand this is *my* opinion and situation, and I kknow everyone's is 
>>>>>> different. I'm not telling you what you should do, just offering my 
>>>>>> observations, for what they're worth.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I used a notetaker in school and college, but slowly used it less and 
>>>>>> less. Today, I use a Macbook Air and iPhone for everything. Sure, 
>>>>>> sometimes it's not quite as efficient at certain things, but it more 
>>>>>> than makes up for that in the app selection and raw horsepower. Plus, 
>>>>>> the efficiency offered by Dropbox, iCloud, Handoff, and other cloud 
>>>>>> services can't be forgotten; sure, typing your notes into a notetaker 
>>>>>> might be a few seconds faster, but you'll have to spend more time 
>>>>>> syncing up those notes to your computer later. With my setup, I can type 
>>>>>> notes on either device and have them appear instantly on the other, and 
>>>>>> with braille screen input or Mbraille on iOS, I can do it in braille.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> A lot of it comes down to what you'll need and how you operate. As you 
>>>>>> said, the central problem is that a display plus an iOS device is 
>>>>>> cheaper, more modular, more powerful, and more versatile. However, a 
>>>>>> dedicated notetaker is more efficient, for certain tasks, and can more 
>>>>>> easily be used on the go or in noisy situations. Unfortunately, there's 
>>>>>> no perfect solution to the problem right now.
>>>>>>> On Jun 20, 2015, at 10:49 AM, Joe  wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Jonathan,
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> Excellent blog post as always. Only, while I agree children are 
>>>>>>> crucial, adult professionals should receive equal consideration. I was 
>>>>>>> beginning to lean toward using a Braille display with an iDevice as a 
>>>>>>> viable solution, but your points give me pause. I need to be able to be 
>>>>>>> as productive as I can be using Braille on a dedicated notetaker. The 
>>>>>>> apps on the more sophisticated Braille Sense are great but still 
>>>>>>> limited. That means I could go for a compromise, purchasing one of the 
>>>>>>> awkward hybrids like the Braille Edge or VarioUltra, but it doesn’t 
>>>>>>> seem as though I could fully harness the horse power of the iDevice if 
>>>>>>> the interaction between display and iOS is efficient. Any further 
>>>>>>> thoughts welcomed. My point here isn’t to stir up a debate of 
>>>>>>> notetakers versus displays. I need to be productive on the move. A full 
>>>>>>> notetaker can be cost-prohibitive. A display doesn’t seem to be the 
>>>>>>> most efficient option. LOL I thought we’d made a little more progress.
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> Joe
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Musings of a Work in Progress:
>>>>>>> www.JoeOrozco.com/
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On 
>>>>>>> Behalf Of Jonathan Mosen
>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2015 1:32 AM
>>>>>>> To: viphone@googlegroups.com
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Replacing Braille Not

Re: Replacing Braille Notetaker with iDevice

[Paul Hunt]

ith my setup, I can type notes on either 
>>>>> device and have them appear instantly on the other, and with braille 
>>>>> screen input or Mbraille on iOS, I can do it in braille.
>>>>> 
>>>>> A lot of it comes down to what you'll need and how you operate. As you 
>>>>> said, the central problem is that a display plus an iOS device is 
>>>>> cheaper, more modular, more powerful, and more versatile. However, a 
>>>>> dedicated notetaker is more efficient, for certain tasks, and can more 
>>>>> easily be used on the go or in noisy situations. Unfortunately, there's 
>>>>> no perfect solution to the problem right now.
>>>>>> On Jun 20, 2015, at 10:49 AM, Joe  wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Jonathan,
>>>>>>  
>>>>>> Excellent blog post as always. Only, while I agree children are crucial, 
>>>>>> adult professionals should receive equal consideration. I was beginning 
>>>>>> to lean toward using a Braille display with an iDevice as a viable 
>>>>>> solution, but your points give me pause. I need to be able to be as 
>>>>>> productive as I can be using Braille on a dedicated notetaker. The apps 
>>>>>> on the more sophisticated Braille Sense are great but still limited. 
>>>>>> That means I could go for a compromise, purchasing one of the awkward 
>>>>>> hybrids like the Braille Edge or VarioUltra, but it doesn’t seem as 
>>>>>> though I could fully harness the horse power of the iDevice if the 
>>>>>> interaction between display and iOS is efficient. Any further thoughts 
>>>>>> welcomed. My point here isn’t to stir up a debate of notetakers versus 
>>>>>> displays. I need to be productive on the move. A full notetaker can be 
>>>>>> cost-prohibitive. A display doesn’t seem to be the most efficient 
>>>>>> option. LOL I thought we’d made a little more progress.
>>>>>>  
>>>>>> Joe
>>>>>>  
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Musings of a Work in Progress:
>>>>>> www.JoeOrozco.com/
>>>>>>  
>>>>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe
>>>>>>  
>>>>>> From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On 
>>>>>> Behalf Of Jonathan Mosen
>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2015 1:32 AM
>>>>>> To: viphone@googlegroups.com
>>>>>> Subject: Re: Replacing Braille Notetaker with iDevice
>>>>>>  
>>>>>> Hi Joe, I want to address your question about Braille input in iOS. In 
>>>>>> my view it is not fit for purpose. I don't know what it is about Braille 
>>>>>> input Apple doesn't get, whether the blind people they consult with 
>>>>>> about these things aren't Braille users, or what the deal is. They have 
>>>>>> the financial and technical resources to fix the issues if they were of 
>>>>>> a mind to, but sadly it appears we are going to see another major 
>>>>>> release of iOS without appropriately robust Braille input being 
>>>>>> available.
>>>>>> As you know, some manufacturers have chosen to do Apple's work for them, 
>>>>>> and work around the woeful Braille input in iOS by keeping text in a 
>>>>>> buffer, then sending it to iOS all at once. I guess this is a pragmatic 
>>>>>> response, but it also let's Apple off the hook. Apple is a mainstream 
>>>>>> technology company, but they have also made the choice to be a screen 
>>>>>> reader company, and I don't believe they should be held to any lesser 
>>>>>> standard than any other screen reader company.
>>>>>> They are receiving awards and praise and I don't begrudge them any of 
>>>>>> it. It is well deserved. But those of us who are passionate about not 
>>>>>> just the spread of Braille, but the very survival of Braille, need to 
>>>>>> stand up and be counted.
>>>>>> There's no doubt that notetaker products can no longer keep up with the 
>>>>>> phrenetic pace of technology, if they ever really could. So just in 
>>>>>> terms of the range of things that can be done, getting an iThing is 
>>>>>> probably a bett

Re: Replacing Braille Notetaker with iDevice

[Jonathan Mosen]

gt;> that blind people cannot and should not point out a flaw and demand better 
>> in a product. I listen to other podcasts having nothing to do with 
>> accessibility and Apple, and the sighted community is not hesitant to say 
>> when something needs to work better. 
>> If one of the screen reader companies fails to provide proper Braille 
>> display support in Windows, those of us, who use Windows are all over the 
>> company. Requesting good Braille input and output on an Apple device is not 
>> a ridiculous one. apple is the only one who can make the braille display 
>> support better. I don’t know if Apple cannot or will not make the Braille 
>> experience better. But voiceover belongs to apple, and I applaude those who 
>> are willing to stand up and ask for better.
>> Jonathan talks about the children all of the time. But blind adults need to 
>> be literate as well. 
>>  Perhaps people have their own reasons for wanting to simply rely on speech 
>> output. but I know there are times when people who cannot see well enough to 
>> read the screen need to use Braille.
>> If someone has a hearing impairment in addition to blindness, then a Braille 
>> display with an Apple device may be essential to using the device.
>> Also, there may be times when you need to read and write Braille without 
>> disturbing others or having the constant feedback of the speech.
>> 
>>> On Jun 20, 2015, at 2:35 PM, TaraPrakash  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Yet, this is the majority opinion. Some people may be more worried about 
>>> braille which is a good thing to have as an option. and blind children must 
>>> have the option to learn braille. but somehow it's apple's responsibility 
>>> to keep the braille alive, is disingenuous in my opinion. your 6,500 device 
>>> is not fast or durable or efficient enough even for the blind as apple 
>>> devices have become.  those who work in the field of assistive devices have 
>>> their vvested interest in bringing in the braille issue with some emotions 
>>> about survival and identity. 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>>> On Jun 20, 2015, at 2:17 PM, Alex Hall  wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> What I've found is that I don't need braille output at all. Please 
>>>> understand this is *my* opinion and situation, and I kknow everyone's is 
>>>> different. I'm not telling you what you should do, just offering my 
>>>> observations, for what they're worth.
>>>> 
>>>> I used a notetaker in school and college, but slowly used it less and 
>>>> less. Today, I use a Macbook Air and iPhone for everything. Sure, 
>>>> sometimes it's not quite as efficient at certain things, but it more than 
>>>> makes up for that in the app selection and raw horsepower. Plus, the 
>>>> efficiency offered by Dropbox, iCloud, Handoff, and other cloud services 
>>>> can't be forgotten; sure, typing your notes into a notetaker might be a 
>>>> few seconds faster, but you'll have to spend more time syncing up those 
>>>> notes to your computer later. With my setup, I can type notes on either 
>>>> device and have them appear instantly on the other, and with braille 
>>>> screen input or Mbraille on iOS, I can do it in braille.
>>>> 
>>>> A lot of it comes down to what you'll need and how you operate. As you 
>>>> said, the central problem is that a display plus an iOS device is cheaper, 
>>>> more modular, more powerful, and more versatile. However, a dedicated 
>>>> notetaker is more efficient, for certain tasks, and can more easily be 
>>>> used on the go or in noisy situations. Unfortunately, there's no perfect 
>>>> solution to the problem right now.
>>>>> On Jun 20, 2015, at 10:49 AM, Joe  wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Jonathan,
>>>>>  
>>>>> Excellent blog post as always. Only, while I agree children are crucial, 
>>>>> adult professionals should receive equal consideration. I was beginning 
>>>>> to lean toward using a Braille display with an iDevice as a viable 
>>>>> solution, but your points give me pause. I need to be able to be as 
>>>>> productive as I can be using Braille on a dedicated notetaker. The apps 
>>>>> on the more sophisticated Braille Sense are great but still limited. That 
>>>>> means I could go for a compromise, purchasing one of the awkward hybrids 
>>>&g

Re: Replacing Braille Notetaker with iDevice

[TaraPrakash]

kash  wrote:
>> 
>> Yet, this is the majority opinion. Some people may be more worried about 
>> braille which is a good thing to have as an option. and blind children must 
>> have the option to learn braille. but somehow it's apple's responsibility to 
>> keep the braille alive, is disingenuous in my opinion. your 6,500 device is 
>> not fast or durable or efficient enough even for the blind as apple devices 
>> have become.  those who work in the field of assistive devices have their 
>> vvested interest in bringing in the braille issue with some emotions about 
>> survival and identity. 
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Jun 20, 2015, at 2:17 PM, Alex Hall  wrote:
>>> 
>>> What I've found is that I don't need braille output at all. Please 
>>> understand this is *my* opinion and situation, and I kknow everyone's is 
>>> different. I'm not telling you what you should do, just offering my 
>>> observations, for what they're worth.
>>> 
>>> I used a notetaker in school and college, but slowly used it less and less. 
>>> Today, I use a Macbook Air and iPhone for everything. Sure, sometimes it's 
>>> not quite as efficient at certain things, but it more than makes up for 
>>> that in the app selection and raw horsepower. Plus, the efficiency offered 
>>> by Dropbox, iCloud, Handoff, and other cloud services can't be forgotten; 
>>> sure, typing your notes into a notetaker might be a few seconds faster, but 
>>> you'll have to spend more time syncing up those notes to your computer 
>>> later. With my setup, I can type notes on either device and have them 
>>> appear instantly on the other, and with braille screen input or Mbraille on 
>>> iOS, I can do it in braille.
>>> 
>>> A lot of it comes down to what you'll need and how you operate. As you 
>>> said, the central problem is that a display plus an iOS device is cheaper, 
>>> more modular, more powerful, and more versatile. However, a dedicated 
>>> notetaker is more efficient, for certain tasks, and can more easily be used 
>>> on the go or in noisy situations. Unfortunately, there's no perfect 
>>> solution to the problem right now.
>>>> On Jun 20, 2015, at 10:49 AM, Joe  wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Jonathan,
>>>>  
>>>> Excellent blog post as always. Only, while I agree children are crucial, 
>>>> adult professionals should receive equal consideration. I was beginning to 
>>>> lean toward using a Braille display with an iDevice as a viable solution, 
>>>> but your points give me pause. I need to be able to be as productive as I 
>>>> can be using Braille on a dedicated notetaker. The apps on the more 
>>>> sophisticated Braille Sense are great but still limited. That means I 
>>>> could go for a compromise, purchasing one of the awkward hybrids like the 
>>>> Braille Edge or VarioUltra, but it doesn’t seem as though I could fully 
>>>> harness the horse power of the iDevice if the interaction between display 
>>>> and iOS is efficient. Any further thoughts welcomed. My point here isn’t 
>>>> to stir up a debate of notetakers versus displays. I need to be productive 
>>>> on the move. A full notetaker can be cost-prohibitive. A display doesn’t 
>>>> seem to be the most efficient option. LOL I thought we’d made a little 
>>>> more progress.
>>>>  
>>>> Joe
>>>>  
>>>> --
>>>> Musings of a Work in Progress:
>>>> www.JoeOrozco.com/
>>>>  
>>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe
>>>>  
>>>> From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf 
>>>> Of Jonathan Mosen
>>>> Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2015 1:32 AM
>>>> To: viphone@googlegroups.com
>>>> Subject: Re: Replacing Braille Notetaker with iDevice
>>>>  
>>>> Hi Joe, I want to address your question about Braille input in iOS. In my 
>>>> view it is not fit for purpose. I don't know what it is about Braille 
>>>> input Apple doesn't get, whether the blind people they consult with about 
>>>> these things aren't Braille users, or what the deal is. They have the 
>>>> financial and technical resources to fix the issues if they were of a mind 
>>>> to, but sadly it appears we are going to see another major release of iOS 
>>>> without appropriately robust Braille inp

Re: Replacing Braille Notetaker with iDevice

[denise avant]

n’t seem as though I could fully harness the 
>>> horse power of the iDevice if the interaction between display and iOS is 
>>> efficient. Any further thoughts welcomed. My point here isn’t to stir up a 
>>> debate of notetakers versus displays. I need to be productive on the move. 
>>> A full notetaker can be cost-prohibitive. A display doesn’t seem to be the 
>>> most efficient option. LOL I thought we’d made a little more progress.
>>>  
>>> Joe
>>>  
>>> --
>>> Musings of a Work in Progress:
>>> www.JoeOrozco.com/ <http://www.joeorozco.com/>
>>>  
>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe
>>>  
>>> From: viphone@googlegroups.com <mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com> 
>>> [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com <mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com>] On 
>>> Behalf Of Jonathan Mosen
>>> Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2015 1:32 AM
>>> To: viphone@googlegroups.com <mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com>
>>> Subject: Re: Replacing Braille Notetaker with iDevice
>>>  
>>> Hi Joe, I want to address your question about Braille input in iOS. In my 
>>> view it is not fit for purpose. I don't know what it is about Braille input 
>>> Apple doesn't get, whether the blind people they consult with about these 
>>> things aren't Braille users, or what the deal is. They have the financial 
>>> and technical resources to fix the issues if they were of a mind to, but 
>>> sadly it appears we are going to see another major release of iOS without 
>>> appropriately robust Braille input being available.
>>> As you know, some manufacturers have chosen to do Apple's work for them, 
>>> and work around the woeful Braille input in iOS by keeping text in a 
>>> buffer, then sending it to iOS all at once. I guess this is a pragmatic 
>>> response, but it also let's Apple off the hook. Apple is a mainstream 
>>> technology company, but they have also made the choice to be a screen 
>>> reader company, and I don't believe they should be held to any lesser 
>>> standard than any other screen reader company.
>>> They are receiving awards and praise and I don't begrudge them any of it. 
>>> It is well deserved. But those of us who are passionate about not just the 
>>> spread of Braille, but the very survival of Braille, need to stand up and 
>>> be counted.
>>> There's no doubt that notetaker products can no longer keep up with the 
>>> phrenetic pace of technology, if they ever really could. So just in terms 
>>> of the range of things that can be done, getting an iThing is probably a 
>>> better bet than a notetaker. And some adults may well be confident enough 
>>> in their Braille skills to work around the shortcomings in Apple's Braille 
>>> input.
>>> What really concerns me though is the kids, and in this case I believe 
>>> notetakers will have a place unless and until Apple get it together when it 
>>> comes to Braille input.
>>> I am pasting below a blog post I wrote a couple of years ago called "The 
>>> Apple Braille Crisis, it's got to be fixed for the kids". While some minor 
>>> changes were made in iOS 8, it is mostly still relevant. Here it is.
>>> People from all walks of life, not just blind people, can get extremely 
>>> partisan about their technology preferences. Anything their team does is 
>>> unquestionably wonderful, while anything another company does is rubbish, 
>>> simply by virtue of the fact that it’s the other guys who did it. If you 
>>> criticise the company such people support, you’ve committed heresy.
>>> As blind people, I don’t believe we have the luxury of being so childish. 
>>> Unemployment is high. Misconceptions abound regarding how capable we can be 
>>> in the workplace, and in society as a whole. We need to be open to all 
>>> solutions, and where possible, use the best mix of technology we can to be 
>>> as productive, functional and self-reliant as we can.
>>> To be clear, I have enormous admiration for the way Apple has changed the 
>>> game in assistive technology. When they released VoiceOver in 2009, I was 
>>> concerned that Apple might do just enough to get people off its back 
>>> regarding the inaccessibility of the iPhone. But that has not been the 
>>> case. With every release, Apple has added tangible enhancements such as 
>>> alternative forms of input, innovative ways for us to use the camera, and 
>>> so much more. So Appl

Re: Do any of the Braille displays use a QWERTY keyboard? RE: Replacing Braille Notetaker with iDevice

[Terry-Ann Saurmann]

Yes, from a cost point of view, I would agree.  In addition, you would still 
have excellent portability, though you are now dealing with three devices.  
Terry

  - Original Message - 
  From: Flor Lynch 
  To: viphone@googlegroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2015 7:09 PM
  Subject: Re: Do any of the Braille displays use a QWERTY keyboard? RE: 
Replacing Braille Notetaker with iDevice


  Succinctly put, and in context. 

  From: Andy Baracco 
  Sent: Sunday, June 21, 2015 12:49 AM
  To: viphone@googlegroups.com 
  Subject: Re: Do any of the Braille displays use a QWERTY keyboard? RE: 
Replacing Braille Notetaker with iDevice
  It would be much cheaper to get a small bluetooth Braille display and a 
bluetooth keyboard for your QWERTY input.

  Andy

  From: Terry-Ann Saurmann 
  Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2015 3:08 PM
  To: viphone@googlegroups.com 
  Subject: Re: Do any of the Braille displays use a QWERTY keyboard? RE: 
Replacing Braille Notetaker with iDevice
  Actually, with such note takers as those from Humanware, Hims and Freedom 
Scientific, that use a Braille display and a qwerty keyboard, you can type on 
the keyboards using the standard typing mode, or you can convert the qwerty 
keyboards to Braille writer style keyboards, which then use letters f, d and s 
to represent the keys for dots 1, 2 and 3, and keys j, k and l to represent the 
keys for dots 4,5 and 6.  When using the keyboard in this way, you press the 
keys simultaneously, to make your characters, just as you would, if you were 
writing, using a Perkins style keyboard.  Terry
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Re: Do any of the Braille displays use a QWERTY keyboard? RE: Replacing Braille Notetaker with iDevice

[Flor Lynch]

Succinctly put, and in context. 

From: Andy Baracco 
Sent: Sunday, June 21, 2015 12:49 AM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com 
Subject: Re: Do any of the Braille displays use a QWERTY keyboard? RE: 
Replacing Braille Notetaker with iDevice
It would be much cheaper to get a small bluetooth Braille display and a 
bluetooth keyboard for your QWERTY input.

Andy

From: Terry-Ann Saurmann 
Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2015 3:08 PM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com 
Subject: Re: Do any of the Braille displays use a QWERTY keyboard? RE: 
Replacing Braille Notetaker with iDevice
Actually, with such note takers as those from Humanware, Hims and Freedom 
Scientific, that use a Braille display and a qwerty keyboard, you can type on 
the keyboards using the standard typing mode, or you can convert the qwerty 
keyboards to Braille writer style keyboards, which then use letters f, d and s 
to represent the keys for dots 1, 2 and 3, and keys j, k and l to represent the 
keys for dots 4,5 and 6.  When using the keyboard in this way, you press the 
keys simultaneously, to make your characters, just as you would, if you were 
writing, using a Perkins style keyboard.  Terry
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Re: Do any of the Braille displays use a QWERTY keyboard? RE: Replacing Braille Notetaker with iDevice

[Andy Baracco]

It would be much cheaper to get a small bluetooth Braille display and a 
bluetooth keyboard for your QWERTY input.

Andy

From: Terry-Ann Saurmann 
Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2015 3:08 PM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com 
Subject: Re: Do any of the Braille displays use a QWERTY keyboard? RE: 
Replacing Braille Notetaker with iDevice
Actually, with such note takers as those from Humanware, Hims and Freedom 
Scientific, that use a Braille display and a qwerty keyboard, you can type on 
the keyboards using the standard typing mode, or you can convert the qwerty 
keyboards to Braille writer style keyboards, which then use letters f, d and s 
to represent the keys for dots 1, 2 and 3, and keys j, k and l to represent the 
keys for dots 4,5 and 6.  When using the keyboard in this way, you press the 
keys simultaneously, to make your characters, just as you would, if you were 
writing, using a Perkins style keyboard.  Terry
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I'm not wearing a diaper, so don't try to change me.

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Re: Do any of the Braille displays use a QWERTY keyboard? RE: Replacing Braille Notetaker with iDevice

[Terry-Ann Saurmann]

Actually, with such note takers as those from Humanware, Hims and Freedom 
Scientific, that use a Braille display and a qwerty keyboard, you can type on 
the keyboards using the standard typing mode, or you can convert the qwerty 
keyboards to Braille writer style keyboards, which then use letters f, d and s 
to represent the keys for dots 1, 2 and 3, and keys j, k and l to represent the 
keys for dots 4,5 and 6.  When using the keyboard in this way, you press the 
keys simultaneously, to make your characters, just as you would, if you were 
writing, using a Perkins style keyboard.  Terry

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Re: Replacing Braille Notetaker with iDevice

[Alex Hall]

Agreed; contracted braille is really important to me when I have to read it. 
It's faster and, vitally in today's market of tiny cell counts, more fits on 
one line. The OP asked specifically about 32-cell units, and if you think about 
it, even those are quite small compared to what a sighted person can see on an 
iPhone's screen. The more that can fit, the better. I love UEB for removing the 
ambiguities, but the trade-off is that it takes up more room, especially as you 
start using it for math or science.
> On Jun 20, 2015, at 4:32 PM, Jonathan Mosen  wrote:
> 
> Hi David. I think this is a separate issue from what we are discussing. I 
> disagree with you because as someone who must read a lot for public 
> presentations and audio production work, I find contracted Braille helps me 
> process information much more quickly than uncontracted Braille. That's 
> important for fluency.
> But it's an interesting discussion. UEB has significantly reduced translation 
> ambiguities. In the end though, this is a decision for blind people to make. 
> Braille belongs to us. We should not be forced to alter our practices due to 
> a single company's inability or unwillingness to get their Braille 
> implementation right.
> Jonathan Mosen
> Mosen Consulting
> Blindness technology eBooks, tutorials and training
> http://Mosen.org 
>> On 20/06/2015, at 9:35 pm, David Chittenden > > wrote:
>> 
>> Jonathan,
>> 
>> I respectfully disagree with you about braille. Contracted braille is like 
>> print shorthand. It became mainstream because braille is so large on paper, 
>> so it was developed to drastically reduce the footprint of braille.
>> 
>> Now that we have electronic braille, we should be learning and teaching 
>> computer braille rather than noncontracted and contracted literary braille. 
>> This would give us blind people parity with sighted people. We would not 
>> need to rely, in any way, on contracted braille translators which cause much 
>> complications with computer interfaces.
>> 
>> A few years ago, the AFB published a study where some blind children were 
>> taught using computer braille. There was no difference in learning or 
>> information retention between those children and children who are taught 
>> using contracted literary braille.
>> 
>> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
>> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com 
>> Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> On 20 Jun 2015, at 17:31, Jonathan Mosen > > wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi Joe, I want to address your question about Braille input in iOS. In my 
>>> view it is not fit for purpose. I don't know what it is about Braille input 
>>> Apple doesn't get, whether the blind people they consult with about these 
>>> things aren't Braille users, or what the deal is. They have the financial 
>>> and technical resources to fix the issues if they were of a mind to, but 
>>> sadly it appears we are going to see another major release of iOS without 
>>> appropriately robust Braille input being available.
>>> As you know, some manufacturers have chosen to do Apple's work for them, 
>>> and work around the woeful Braille input in iOS by keeping text in a 
>>> buffer, then sending it to iOS all at once. I guess this is a pragmatic 
>>> response, but it also let's Apple off the hook. Apple is a mainstream 
>>> technology company, but they have also made the choice to be a screen 
>>> reader company, and I don't believe they should be held to any lesser 
>>> standard than any other screen reader company.
>>> They are receiving awards and praise and I don't begrudge them any of it. 
>>> It is well deserved. But those of us who are passionate about not just the 
>>> spread of Braille, but the very survival of Braille, need to stand up and 
>>> be counted.
>>> There's no doubt that notetaker products can no longer keep up with the 
>>> phrenetic pace of technology, if they ever really could. So just in terms 
>>> of the range of things that can be done, getting an iThing is probably a 
>>> better bet than a notetaker. And some adults may well be confident enough 
>>> in their Braille skills to work around the shortcomings in Apple's Braille 
>>> input.
>>> What really concerns me though is the kids, and in this case I believe 
>>> notetakers will have a place unless and until Apple get it together when it 
>>> comes to Braille input.
>>> I am pasting below a blog post I wrote a couple of years ago called "The 
>>> Apple Braille Crisis, it's got to be fixed for the kids". While some minor 
>>> changes were made in iOS 8, it is mostly still relevant. Here it is.
>>> People from all walks of life, not just blind people, can get extremely 
>>> partisan about their technology preferences. Anything their team does is 
>>> unquestionably wonderful, while anything another company does is rubbish, 
>>> simply by virtue of the fact that it’s the other guys who did it. If you 
>>> cr

Re: Do any of the Braille displays use a QWERTY keyboard? RE: Replacing Braille Notetaker with iDevice

[Flor Lynch]

Hi,
I don’t think problems having to do with inputting Braille via the braille 
display keyboard are intrinsic to Braille or the display itself, but rather 
with the conversion to and from contracted braille. For QWERTY, there may be a 
Humanware Apex model. (It will cost a lot more. May do much better to just get 
a Bluetooth keyboard and have that, alongside braille display – if necessary.) 

From: Kevin Minor 
Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2015 7:08 PM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com 
Subject: Do any of the Braille displays use a QWERTY keyboard? RE: Replacing 
Braille Notetaker with iDevice
Hi.

 

I currently don’t have a Braille display, so I don’t know the answer to my 
question.  From what I’m hearing the input of Braille with the Braille keyboard 
isn’t the best.  This leads me to my question.  Are there any Blue Tooth 
displays that use a QWERTY keyboard?  If so, this may solve some of the issues. 
 If not, it may be something to consider.  There may be good reasons why this 
isn’t available, assuming it isn’t.  As I said, I don’t use Braille with my 
iPhone, so I’m just throwing this out there as a thought.

 

Kevin Minor, Lexington, KY

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Re: Replacing Braille Notetaker with iDevice

[Jonathan Mosen]

sure, 
>> typing your notes into a notetaker might be a few seconds faster, but you'll 
>> have to spend more time syncing up those notes to your computer later. With 
>> my setup, I can type notes on either device and have them appear instantly 
>> on the other, and with braille screen input or Mbraille on iOS, I can do it 
>> in braille.
>> 
>> A lot of it comes down to what you'll need and how you operate. As you said, 
>> the central problem is that a display plus an iOS device is cheaper, more 
>> modular, more powerful, and more versatile. However, a dedicated notetaker 
>> is more efficient, for certain tasks, and can more easily be used on the go 
>> or in noisy situations. Unfortunately, there's no perfect solution to the 
>> problem right now.
>>> On Jun 20, 2015, at 10:49 AM, Joe >> <mailto:jsoro...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Jonathan,
>>>  
>>> Excellent blog post as always. Only, while I agree children are crucial, 
>>> adult professionals should receive equal consideration. I was beginning to 
>>> lean toward using a Braille display with an iDevice as a viable solution, 
>>> but your points give me pause. I need to be able to be as productive as I 
>>> can be using Braille on a dedicated notetaker. The apps on the more 
>>> sophisticated Braille Sense are great but still limited. That means I could 
>>> go for a compromise, purchasing one of the awkward hybrids like the Braille 
>>> Edge or VarioUltra, but it doesn’t seem as though I could fully harness the 
>>> horse power of the iDevice if the interaction between display and iOS is 
>>> efficient. Any further thoughts welcomed. My point here isn’t to stir up a 
>>> debate of notetakers versus displays. I need to be productive on the move. 
>>> A full notetaker can be cost-prohibitive. A display doesn’t seem to be the 
>>> most efficient option. LOL I thought we’d made a little more progress.
>>>  
>>> Joe
>>>  
>>> --
>>> Musings of a Work in Progress:
>>> www.JoeOrozco.com/ <http://www.joeorozco.com/>
>>>  
>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe
>>>  
>>> From: viphone@googlegroups.com 
>>> <mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com>[mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com 
>>> <mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com>] On Behalf Of Jonathan Mosen
>>> Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2015 1:32 AM
>>> To: viphone@googlegroups.com <mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com>
>>> Subject: Re: Replacing Braille Notetaker with iDevice
>>>  
>>> Hi Joe, I want to address your question about Braille input in iOS. In my 
>>> view it is not fit for purpose. I don't know what it is about Braille input 
>>> Apple doesn't get, whether the blind people they consult with about these 
>>> things aren't Braille users, or what the deal is. They have the financial 
>>> and technical resources to fix the issues if they were of a mind to, but 
>>> sadly it appears we are going to see another major release of iOS without 
>>> appropriately robust Braille input being available.
>>> As you know, some manufacturers have chosen to do Apple's work for them, 
>>> and work around the woeful Braille input in iOS by keeping text in a 
>>> buffer, then sending it to iOS all at once. I guess this is a pragmatic 
>>> response, but it also let's Apple off the hook. Apple is a mainstream 
>>> technology company, but they have also made the choice to be a screen 
>>> reader company, and I don't believe they should be held to any lesser 
>>> standard than any other screen reader company.
>>> They are receiving awards and praise and I don't begrudge them any of it. 
>>> It is well deserved. But those of us who are passionate about not just the 
>>> spread of Braille, but the very survival of Braille, need to stand up and 
>>> be counted.
>>> There's no doubt that notetaker products can no longer keep up with the 
>>> phrenetic pace of technology, if they ever really could. So just in terms 
>>> of the range of things that can be done, getting an iThing is probably a 
>>> better bet than a notetaker. And some adults may well be confident enough 
>>> in their Braille skills to work around the shortcomings in Apple's Braille 
>>> input.
>>> What really concerns me though is the kids, and in this case I believe 
>>> notetakers will have a place unless and until Apple get it together when it 
>>> comes to Braille input.
>>> I am pa

Re: Replacing Braille Notetaker with iDevice

[Jonathan Mosen]

Hi David. I think this is a separate issue from what we are discussing. I 
disagree with you because as someone who must read a lot for public 
presentations and audio production work, I find contracted Braille helps me 
process information much more quickly than uncontracted Braille. That's 
important for fluency.
But it's an interesting discussion. UEB has significantly reduced translation 
ambiguities. In the end though, this is a decision for blind people to make. 
Braille belongs to us. We should not be forced to alter our practices due to a 
single company's inability or unwillingness to get their Braille implementation 
right.
Jonathan Mosen
Mosen Consulting
Blindness technology eBooks, tutorials and training
http://Mosen.org

> On 20/06/2015, at 9:35 pm, David Chittenden  wrote:
> 
> Jonathan,
> 
> I respectfully disagree with you about braille. Contracted braille is like 
> print shorthand. It became mainstream because braille is so large on paper, 
> so it was developed to drastically reduce the footprint of braille.
> 
> Now that we have electronic braille, we should be learning and teaching 
> computer braille rather than noncontracted and contracted literary braille. 
> This would give us blind people parity with sighted people. We would not need 
> to rely, in any way, on contracted braille translators which cause much 
> complications with computer interfaces.
> 
> A few years ago, the AFB published a study where some blind children were 
> taught using computer braille. There was no difference in learning or 
> information retention between those children and children who are taught 
> using contracted literary braille.
> 
> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com 
> Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On 20 Jun 2015, at 17:31, Jonathan Mosen  > wrote:
> 
>> Hi Joe, I want to address your question about Braille input in iOS. In my 
>> view it is not fit for purpose. I don't know what it is about Braille input 
>> Apple doesn't get, whether the blind people they consult with about these 
>> things aren't Braille users, or what the deal is. They have the financial 
>> and technical resources to fix the issues if they were of a mind to, but 
>> sadly it appears we are going to see another major release of iOS without 
>> appropriately robust Braille input being available.
>> As you know, some manufacturers have chosen to do Apple's work for them, and 
>> work around the woeful Braille input in iOS by keeping text in a buffer, 
>> then sending it to iOS all at once. I guess this is a pragmatic response, 
>> but it also let's Apple off the hook. Apple is a mainstream technology 
>> company, but they have also made the choice to be a screen reader company, 
>> and I don't believe they should be held to any lesser standard than any 
>> other screen reader company.
>> They are receiving awards and praise and I don't begrudge them any of it. It 
>> is well deserved. But those of us who are passionate about not just the 
>> spread of Braille, but the very survival of Braille, need to stand up and be 
>> counted.
>> There's no doubt that notetaker products can no longer keep up with the 
>> phrenetic pace of technology, if they ever really could. So just in terms of 
>> the range of things that can be done, getting an iThing is probably a better 
>> bet than a notetaker. And some adults may well be confident enough in their 
>> Braille skills to work around the shortcomings in Apple's Braille input.
>> What really concerns me though is the kids, and in this case I believe 
>> notetakers will have a place unless and until Apple get it together when it 
>> comes to Braille input.
>> I am pasting below a blog post I wrote a couple of years ago called "The 
>> Apple Braille Crisis, it's got to be fixed for the kids". While some minor 
>> changes were made in iOS 8, it is mostly still relevant. Here it is.
>> People from all walks of life, not just blind people, can get extremely 
>> partisan about their technology preferences. Anything their team does is 
>> unquestionably wonderful, while anything another company does is rubbish, 
>> simply by virtue of the fact that it’s the other guys who did it. If you 
>> criticise the company such people support, you’ve committed heresy.
>> As blind people, I don’t believe we have the luxury of being so childish. 
>> Unemployment is high. Misconceptions abound regarding how capable we can be 
>> in the workplace, and in society as a whole. We need to be open to all 
>> solutions, and where possible, use the best mix of technology we can to be 
>> as productive, functional and self-reliant as we can.
>> To be clear, I have enormous admiration for the way Apple has changed the 
>> game in assistive technology. When they released VoiceOver in 2009, I was 
>> concerned that Apple might do just enough to get people off its back 
>> regarding the inaccessibility of the iPhone. But th

Re: Replacing Braille Notetaker with iDevice

[TaraPrakash]

Yet, this is the majority opinion. Some people may be more worried about 
braille which is a good thing to have as an option. and blind children must 
have the option to learn braille. but somehow it's apple's responsibility to 
keep the braille alive, is disingenuous in my opinion. your 6,500 device is not 
fast or durable or efficient enough even for the blind as apple devices have 
become.  those who work in the field of assistive devices have their vvested 
interest in bringing in the braille issue with some emotions about survival and 
identity. 


Sent from my iPhone

> On Jun 20, 2015, at 2:17 PM, Alex Hall  wrote:
> 
> What I've found is that I don't need braille output at all. Please understand 
> this is *my* opinion and situation, and I kknow everyone's is different. I'm 
> not telling you what you should do, just offering my observations, for what 
> they're worth.
> 
> I used a notetaker in school and college, but slowly used it less and less. 
> Today, I use a Macbook Air and iPhone for everything. Sure, sometimes it's 
> not quite as efficient at certain things, but it more than makes up for that 
> in the app selection and raw horsepower. Plus, the efficiency offered by 
> Dropbox, iCloud, Handoff, and other cloud services can't be forgotten; sure, 
> typing your notes into a notetaker might be a few seconds faster, but you'll 
> have to spend more time syncing up those notes to your computer later. With 
> my setup, I can type notes on either device and have them appear instantly on 
> the other, and with braille screen input or Mbraille on iOS, I can do it in 
> braille.
> 
> A lot of it comes down to what you'll need and how you operate. As you said, 
> the central problem is that a display plus an iOS device is cheaper, more 
> modular, more powerful, and more versatile. However, a dedicated notetaker is 
> more efficient, for certain tasks, and can more easily be used on the go or 
> in noisy situations. Unfortunately, there's no perfect solution to the 
> problem right now.
>> On Jun 20, 2015, at 10:49 AM, Joe  wrote:
>> 
>> Jonathan,
>>  
>> Excellent blog post as always. Only, while I agree children are crucial, 
>> adult professionals should receive equal consideration. I was beginning to 
>> lean toward using a Braille display with an iDevice as a viable solution, 
>> but your points give me pause. I need to be able to be as productive as I 
>> can be using Braille on a dedicated notetaker. The apps on the more 
>> sophisticated Braille Sense are great but still limited. That means I could 
>> go for a compromise, purchasing one of the awkward hybrids like the Braille 
>> Edge or VarioUltra, but it doesn’t seem as though I could fully harness the 
>> horse power of the iDevice if the interaction between display and iOS is 
>> efficient. Any further thoughts welcomed. My point here isn’t to stir up a 
>> debate of notetakers versus displays. I need to be productive on the move. A 
>> full notetaker can be cost-prohibitive. A display doesn’t seem to be the 
>> most efficient option. LOL I thought we’d made a little more progress.
>>  
>> Joe
>>  
>> --
>> Musings of a Work in Progress:
>> www.JoeOrozco.com/
>>  
>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe
>>  
>> From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf 
>> Of Jonathan Mosen
>> Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2015 1:32 AM
>> To: viphone@googlegroups.com
>> Subject: Re: Replacing Braille Notetaker with iDevice
>>  
>> Hi Joe, I want to address your question about Braille input in iOS. In my 
>> view it is not fit for purpose. I don't know what it is about Braille input 
>> Apple doesn't get, whether the blind people they consult with about these 
>> things aren't Braille users, or what the deal is. They have the financial 
>> and technical resources to fix the issues if they were of a mind to, but 
>> sadly it appears we are going to see another major release of iOS without 
>> appropriately robust Braille input being available.
>> As you know, some manufacturers have chosen to do Apple's work for them, and 
>> work around the woeful Braille input in iOS by keeping text in a buffer, 
>> then sending it to iOS all at once. I guess this is a pragmatic response, 
>> but it also let's Apple off the hook. Apple is a mainstream technology 
>> company, but they have also made the choice to be a screen reader company, 
>> and I don't believe they should be held to any lesser standard than any 
>> other screen reader company.
>> They are receiving awards and praise and I don't begrudge t

Re: Do any of the Braille displays use a QWERTY keyboard? RE: Replacing Braille Notetaker with iDevice

[TaraPrakash]

correct me if I am wrong. When using a note taker as a braille display, you 
can't use it as qwerty keyboard. the entry is always braille type even if you 
have a qwerty keyboard.


Sent from my iPhone

> On Jun 20, 2015, at 2:38 PM, Terry-Ann Saurmann  
> wrote:
> 
> The only Braille displays that I am aware of with a  qwerty keyboard are 
> those that come with the note takers that provide for this option.  Terry
>  
> - Original Message -
> From: Kevin Minor
> To: viphone@googlegroups.com
> Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2015 1:08 PM
> Subject: Do any of the Braille displays use a QWERTY keyboard? RE: Replacing 
> Braille Notetaker with iDevice
> 
> Hi.
>  
> I currently don’t have a Braille display, so I don’t know the answer to my 
> question.  From what I’m hearing the input of Braille with the Braille 
> keyboard isn’t the best.  This leads me to my question.  Are there any Blue 
> Tooth displays that use a QWERTY keyboard?  If so, this may solve some of the 
> issues.  If not, it may be something to consider.  There may be good reasons 
> why this isn’t available, assuming it isn’t.  As I said, I don’t use Braille 
> with my iPhone, so I’m just throwing this out there as a thought.
>  
> Kevin Minor, Lexington, KY
> -- 
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> All new members to the this list are moderated by default. If you have any 
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Re: Do any of the Braille displays use a QWERTY keyboard? RE: Replacing Braille Notetaker with iDevice

[Terry-Ann Saurmann]

The only Braille displays that I am aware of with a qwerty keyboard are those 
that come with the note takers that provide for this option.  Terry

  - Original Message - 
  From: Kevin Minor 
  To: viphone@googlegroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2015 1:08 PM
  Subject: Do any of the Braille displays use a QWERTY keyboard? RE: Replacing 
Braille Notetaker with iDevice


  Hi.

   

  I currently don’t have a Braille display, so I don’t know the answer to my 
question.  From what I’m hearing the input of Braille with the Braille keyboard 
isn’t the best.  This leads me to my question.  Are there any Blue Tooth 
displays that use a QWERTY keyboard?  If so, this may solve some of the issues. 
 If not, it may be something to consider.  There may be good reasons why this 
isn’t available, assuming it isn’t.  As I said, I don’t use Braille with my 
iPhone, so I’m just throwing this out there as a thought.

   

  Kevin Minor, Lexington, KY


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Re: Replacing Braille Notetaker with iDevice

[Alex Hall]

What I've found is that I don't need braille output at all. Please understand 
this is *my* opinion and situation, and I kknow everyone's is different. I'm 
not telling you what you should do, just offering my observations, for what 
they're worth.

I used a notetaker in school and college, but slowly used it less and less. 
Today, I use a Macbook Air and iPhone for everything. Sure, sometimes it's not 
quite as efficient at certain things, but it more than makes up for that in the 
app selection and raw horsepower. Plus, the efficiency offered by Dropbox, 
iCloud, Handoff, and other cloud services can't be forgotten; sure, typing your 
notes into a notetaker might be a few seconds faster, but you'll have to spend 
more time syncing up those notes to your computer later. With my setup, I can 
type notes on either device and have them appear instantly on the other, and 
with braille screen input or Mbraille on iOS, I can do it in braille.

A lot of it comes down to what you'll need and how you operate. As you said, 
the central problem is that a display plus an iOS device is cheaper, more 
modular, more powerful, and more versatile. However, a dedicated notetaker is 
more efficient, for certain tasks, and can more easily be used on the go or in 
noisy situations. Unfortunately, there's no perfect solution to the problem 
right now.
> On Jun 20, 2015, at 10:49 AM, Joe  wrote:
> 
> Jonathan,
>  
> Excellent blog post as always. Only, while I agree children are crucial, 
> adult professionals should receive equal consideration. I was beginning to 
> lean toward using a Braille display with an iDevice as a viable solution, but 
> your points give me pause. I need to be able to be as productive as I can be 
> using Braille on a dedicated notetaker. The apps on the more sophisticated 
> Braille Sense are great but still limited. That means I could go for a 
> compromise, purchasing one of the awkward hybrids like the Braille Edge or 
> VarioUltra, but it doesn’t seem as though I could fully harness the horse 
> power of the iDevice if the interaction between display and iOS is efficient. 
> Any further thoughts welcomed. My point here isn’t to stir up a debate of 
> notetakers versus displays. I need to be productive on the move. A full 
> notetaker can be cost-prohibitive. A display doesn’t seem to be the most 
> efficient option. LOL I thought we’d made a little more progress.
>  
> Joe
>  
> --
> Musings of a Work in Progress:
> www.JoeOrozco.com/
>  
> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe
>  
> From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of 
> Jonathan Mosen
> Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2015 1:32 AM
> To: viphone@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: Replacing Braille Notetaker with iDevice
>  
> Hi Joe, I want to address your question about Braille input in iOS. In my 
> view it is not fit for purpose. I don't know what it is about Braille input 
> Apple doesn't get, whether the blind people they consult with about these 
> things aren't Braille users, or what the deal is. They have the financial and 
> technical resources to fix the issues if they were of a mind to, but sadly it 
> appears we are going to see another major release of iOS without 
> appropriately robust Braille input being available.
> As you know, some manufacturers have chosen to do Apple's work for them, and 
> work around the woeful Braille input in iOS by keeping text in a buffer, then 
> sending it to iOS all at once. I guess this is a pragmatic response, but it 
> also let's Apple off the hook. Apple is a mainstream technology company, but 
> they have also made the choice to be a screen reader company, and I don't 
> believe they should be held to any lesser standard than any other screen 
> reader company.
> They are receiving awards and praise and I don't begrudge them any of it. It 
> is well deserved. But those of us who are passionate about not just the 
> spread of Braille, but the very survival of Braille, need to stand up and be 
> counted.
> There's no doubt that notetaker products can no longer keep up with the 
> phrenetic pace of technology, if they ever really could. So just in terms of 
> the range of things that can be done, getting an iThing is probably a better 
> bet than a notetaker. And some adults may well be confident enough in their 
> Braille skills to work around the shortcomings in Apple's Braille input.
> What really concerns me though is the kids, and in this case I believe 
> notetakers will have a place unless and until Apple get it together when it 
> comes to Braille input.
> I am pasting below a blog post I wrote a couple of years ago called "The 
> Apple Braille Crisis, it's got to be fixed for the kids

Do any of the Braille displays use a QWERTY keyboard? RE: Replacing Braille Notetaker with iDevice

[Kevin Minor]

Hi.

 

I currently don’t have a Braille display, so I don’t know the answer to my 
question.  From what I’m hearing the input of Braille with the Braille keyboard 
isn’t the best.  This leads me to my question.  Are there any Blue Tooth 
displays that use a QWERTY keyboard?  If so, this may solve some of the issues. 
 If not, it may be something to consider.  There may be good reasons why this 
isn’t available, assuming it isn’t.  As I said, I don’t use Braille with my 
iPhone, so I’m just throwing this out there as a thought.

 

Kevin Minor, Lexington, KY

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RE: Replacing Braille Notetaker with iDevice

[Joe]

Jonathan,

 

Excellent blog post as always. Only, while I agree children are crucial, adult 
professionals should receive equal consideration. I was beginning to lean 
toward using a Braille display with an iDevice as a viable solution, but your 
points give me pause. I need to be able to be as productive as I can be using 
Braille on a dedicated notetaker. The apps on the more sophisticated Braille 
Sense are great but still limited. That means I could go for a compromise, 
purchasing one of the awkward hybrids like the Braille Edge or VarioUltra, but 
it doesn’t seem as though I could fully harness the horse power of the iDevice 
if the interaction between display and iOS is efficient. Any further thoughts 
welcomed. My point here isn’t to stir up a debate of notetakers versus 
displays. I need to be productive on the move. A full notetaker can be 
cost-prohibitive. A display doesn’t seem to be the most efficient option. LOL I 
thought we’d made a little more progress.

 

Joe

 

--

Musings of a Work in Progress:

www.JoeOrozco.com/

 

Twitter: @ScribblingJoe

 

From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Jonathan Mosen
Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2015 1:32 AM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Replacing Braille Notetaker with iDevice

 

Hi Joe, I want to address your question about Braille input in iOS. In my view 
it is not fit for purpose. I don't know what it is about Braille input Apple 
doesn't get, whether the blind people they consult with about these things 
aren't Braille users, or what the deal is. They have the financial and 
technical resources to fix the issues if they were of a mind to, but sadly it 
appears we are going to see another major release of iOS without appropriately 
robust Braille input being available.

As you know, some manufacturers have chosen to do Apple's work for them, and 
work around the woeful Braille input in iOS by keeping text in a buffer, then 
sending it to iOS all at once. I guess this is a pragmatic response, but it 
also let's Apple off the hook. Apple is a mainstream technology company, but 
they have also made the choice to be a screen reader company, and I don't 
believe they should be held to any lesser standard than any other screen reader 
company.

They are receiving awards and praise and I don't begrudge them any of it. It is 
well deserved. But those of us who are passionate about not just the spread of 
Braille, but the very survival of Braille, need to stand up and be counted.

There's no doubt that notetaker products can no longer keep up with the 
phrenetic pace of technology, if they ever really could. So just in terms of 
the range of things that can be done, getting an iThing is probably a better 
bet than a notetaker. And some adults may well be confident enough in their 
Braille skills to work around the shortcomings in Apple's Braille input.

What really concerns me though is the kids, and in this case I believe 
notetakers will have a place unless and until Apple get it together when it 
comes to Braille input.

I am pasting below a blog post I wrote a couple of years ago called "The Apple 
Braille Crisis, it's got to be fixed for the kids". While some minor changes 
were made in iOS 8, it is mostly still relevant. Here it is.

People from all walks of life, not just blind people, can get extremely 
partisan about their technology preferences. Anything their team does is 
unquestionably wonderful, while anything another company does is rubbish, 
simply by virtue of the fact that it’s the other guys who did it. If you 
criticise the company such people support, you’ve committed heresy.

As blind people, I don’t believe we have the luxury of being so childish. 
Unemployment is high. Misconceptions abound regarding how capable we can be in 
the workplace, and in society as a whole. We need to be open to all solutions, 
and where possible, use the best mix of technology we can to be as productive, 
functional and self-reliant as we can.

To be clear, I have enormous admiration for the way Apple has changed the game 
in assistive technology. When they released VoiceOver in 2009, I was concerned 
that Apple might do just enough to get people off its back regarding the 
inaccessibility of the iPhone. But that has not been the case. With every 
release, Apple has added tangible enhancements such as alternative forms of 
input, innovative ways for us to use the camera, and so much more. So Apple’s 
commitment to accessibility is real, its ongoing, and it has earned enormous 
praise and respect.

Is there a “but” coming? Yes, there is, actually., because being grateful for a 
product doesn’t mean we don’t have rights as paying consumers to point out 
where a product falls short. But more than that, if Apple’s innovations risk 
killing off a category of product, and the literacy of our kids is threatened, 
we have a moral obligation to s

Re: Replacing Braille Notetaker with iDevice

[David Chittenden]

Jonathan,

I respectfully disagree with you about braille. Contracted braille is like 
print shorthand. It became mainstream because braille is so large on paper, so 
it was developed to drastically reduce the footprint of braille.

Now that we have electronic braille, we should be learning and teaching 
computer braille rather than noncontracted and contracted literary braille. 
This would give us blind people parity with sighted people. We would not need 
to rely, in any way, on contracted braille translators which cause much 
complications with computer interfaces.

A few years ago, the AFB published a study where some blind children were 
taught using computer braille. There was no difference in learning or 
information retention between those children and children who are taught using 
contracted literary braille.

David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
Sent from my iPhone

> On 20 Jun 2015, at 17:31, Jonathan Mosen  wrote:
> 
> Hi Joe, I want to address your question about Braille input in iOS. In my 
> view it is not fit for purpose. I don't know what it is about Braille input 
> Apple doesn't get, whether the blind people they consult with about these 
> things aren't Braille users, or what the deal is. They have the financial and 
> technical resources to fix the issues if they were of a mind to, but sadly it 
> appears we are going to see another major release of iOS without 
> appropriately robust Braille input being available.
> As you know, some manufacturers have chosen to do Apple's work for them, and 
> work around the woeful Braille input in iOS by keeping text in a buffer, then 
> sending it to iOS all at once. I guess this is a pragmatic response, but it 
> also let's Apple off the hook. Apple is a mainstream technology company, but 
> they have also made the choice to be a screen reader company, and I don't 
> believe they should be held to any lesser standard than any other screen 
> reader company.
> They are receiving awards and praise and I don't begrudge them any of it. It 
> is well deserved. But those of us who are passionate about not just the 
> spread of Braille, but the very survival of Braille, need to stand up and be 
> counted.
> There's no doubt that notetaker products can no longer keep up with the 
> phrenetic pace of technology, if they ever really could. So just in terms of 
> the range of things that can be done, getting an iThing is probably a better 
> bet than a notetaker. And some adults may well be confident enough in their 
> Braille skills to work around the shortcomings in Apple's Braille input.
> What really concerns me though is the kids, and in this case I believe 
> notetakers will have a place unless and until Apple get it together when it 
> comes to Braille input.
> I am pasting below a blog post I wrote a couple of years ago called "The 
> Apple Braille Crisis, it's got to be fixed for the kids". While some minor 
> changes were made in iOS 8, it is mostly still relevant. Here it is.
> People from all walks of life, not just blind people, can get extremely 
> partisan about their technology preferences. Anything their team does is 
> unquestionably wonderful, while anything another company does is rubbish, 
> simply by virtue of the fact that it’s the other guys who did it. If you 
> criticise the company such people support, you’ve committed heresy.
> As blind people, I don’t believe we have the luxury of being so childish. 
> Unemployment is high. Misconceptions abound regarding how capable we can be 
> in the workplace, and in society as a whole. We need to be open to all 
> solutions, and where possible, use the best mix of technology we can to be as 
> productive, functional and self-reliant as we can.
> To be clear, I have enormous admiration for the way Apple has changed the 
> game in assistive technology. When they released VoiceOver in 2009, I was 
> concerned that Apple might do just enough to get people off its back 
> regarding the inaccessibility of the iPhone. But that has not been the case. 
> With every release, Apple has added tangible enhancements such as alternative 
> forms of input, innovative ways for us to use the camera, and so much more. 
> So Apple’s commitment to accessibility is real, its ongoing, and it has 
> earned enormous praise and respect.
> Is there a “but” coming? Yes, there is, actually., because being grateful for 
> a product doesn’t mean we don’t have rights as paying consumers to point out 
> where a product falls short. But more than that, if Apple’s innovations risk 
> killing off a category of product, and the literacy of our kids is 
> threatened, we have a moral obligation to speak up constructively and ask 
> Apple to engage with us as a community about fixing the issue.
> The Internet is buzzing with reports of bugs in iOS 7. I’m not unduly 
> concerned about most of these, because I believe the majority of them will 
> come out in the wash. iOS 7 was a massiv

Re: Replacing Braille Notetaker with iDevice

[Jonathan Mosen]

Hi Joe, I want to address your question about Braille input in iOS. In my view 
it is not fit for purpose. I don't know what it is about Braille input Apple 
doesn't get, whether the blind people they consult with about these things 
aren't Braille users, or what the deal is. They have the financial and 
technical resources to fix the issues if they were of a mind to, but sadly it 
appears we are going to see another major release of iOS without appropriately 
robust Braille input being available.
As you know, some manufacturers have chosen to do Apple's work for them, and 
work around the woeful Braille input in iOS by keeping text in a buffer, then 
sending it to iOS all at once. I guess this is a pragmatic response, but it 
also let's Apple off the hook. Apple is a mainstream technology company, but 
they have also made the choice to be a screen reader company, and I don't 
believe they should be held to any lesser standard than any other screen reader 
company.
They are receiving awards and praise and I don't begrudge them any of it. It is 
well deserved. But those of us who are passionate about not just the spread of 
Braille, but the very survival of Braille, need to stand up and be counted.
There's no doubt that notetaker products can no longer keep up with the 
phrenetic pace of technology, if they ever really could. So just in terms of 
the range of things that can be done, getting an iThing is probably a better 
bet than a notetaker. And some adults may well be confident enough in their 
Braille skills to work around the shortcomings in Apple's Braille input.
What really concerns me though is the kids, and in this case I believe 
notetakers will have a place unless and until Apple get it together when it 
comes to Braille input.
I am pasting below a blog post I wrote a couple of years ago called "The Apple 
Braille Crisis, it's got to be fixed for the kids". While some minor changes 
were made in iOS 8, it is mostly still relevant. Here it is.
People from all walks of life, not just blind people, can get extremely 
partisan about their technology preferences. Anything their team does is 
unquestionably wonderful, while anything another company does is rubbish, 
simply by virtue of the fact that it’s the other guys who did it. If you 
criticise the company such people support, you’ve committed heresy.
As blind people, I don’t believe we have the luxury of being so childish. 
Unemployment is high. Misconceptions abound regarding how capable we can be in 
the workplace, and in society as a whole. We need to be open to all solutions, 
and where possible, use the best mix of technology we can to be as productive, 
functional and self-reliant as we can.
To be clear, I have enormous admiration for the way Apple has changed the game 
in assistive technology. When they released VoiceOver in 2009, I was concerned 
that Apple might do just enough to get people off its back regarding the 
inaccessibility of the iPhone. But that has not been the case. With every 
release, Apple has added tangible enhancements such as alternative forms of 
input, innovative ways for us to use the camera, and so much more. So Apple’s 
commitment to accessibility is real, its ongoing, and it has earned enormous 
praise and respect.
Is there a “but” coming? Yes, there is, actually., because being grateful for a 
product doesn’t mean we don’t have rights as paying consumers to point out 
where a product falls short. But more than that, if Apple’s innovations risk 
killing off a category of product, and the literacy of our kids is threatened, 
we have a moral obligation to speak up constructively and ask Apple to engage 
with us as a community about fixing the issue.
The Internet is buzzing with reports of bugs in iOS 7. I’m not unduly concerned 
about most of these, because I believe the majority of them will come out in 
the wash. iOS 7 was a massive refactoring of the OS. I hope that there’ll be 
fixes released steadily across the coming year.
However, I am deeply troubled by Apple’s ongoing apparent failure to understand 
what constitutes Braille support of an appropriate quality. We’re not talking 
bugs in this case, we’re talking a fundamental user interface failure – a 
feature not fully fit for purpose.
Since Braille was introduced in iOS, it has supported contracted Braille in 
English markets. This is a means by which space is saved, and speed increased, 
by using a series of symbols and abbreviations. When one reads contracted 
Braille in iOS, it works quite well. When one writes it, it is the worst 
implementation of contracted input I’ve ever used on any device.
Since its inception, if you input a letter in contracted Braille which would be 
the abbreviation for a word if surrounded by spaces, iOS expands the word it 
represents if you pause for a short time before inputting the next character. 
For example, write “p” and it will quickly be expanded to the word “people”. If 
you are proofing a document you’ve brailled 

RE: Replacing Braille Notetaker with iDevice

[Cristóbal]

Back in the day, I was considering getting an Apex note taker and in fact had 
one for a few days to give it a spin. For the price though, I simply wasn't 
convinced. I instead set myself up with what was at that time an iPad 2, 
bluetooth keyboard and 40 cell Brailiant BI 40. The Apex would have run me 
$6,000.00. Whereas the iPad set up came in at around something like $4,000.00. 
I've since gotten different iPhones and iPads and bluetooth keyboards, but the 
BI 40 is stil going strong. 
There is absolutely no way I would ever buy a Braille note taker now. I'm sure 
being blind specific, there may be a few tasks that it may be better at than an 
iPad/iPhone/iPot Touch combo with a display, but not for the price difference. 
That and you can do so much more with an iOS device than just being stuck with 
Keysoft or whatever it's called that at this point, screams 2004. 

-Original Message-
From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Joe
Sent: Friday, June 19, 2015 2:24 PM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Replacing Braille Notetaker with iDevice

Hi, I'm curious to hear from people who have replaced their Braille notetaker 
with an iDevice. I've been toying with the idea of investing in a
U2 for reading books, taking notes and performing similar quick tasks.

Questions:

1. I've heard there are displays that let you type text and then send to the 
iDevice in one burst. I don't understand the mechanics of this, but what are 
the displays you know that do this?

2. Is Braille input in iOS as dreadful as some people have made it out to be? I 
don't mind learning various keystrokes, but I do mind delays in transmition.

3. Is there a means to read BRF in iOS?

4. What 32-cell display would you personally recommend?

Thanks guys for any help.

Joe

--
Musings of a Work in Progress:
www.JoeOrozco.com/

Twitter: @ScribblingJoe


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Re: Replacing Braille Notetaker with iDevice

[Alex Hall]

See below.
> On Jun 19, 2015, at 5:24 PM, Joe  wrote:
> 
> Hi, I'm curious to hear from people who have replaced their Braille
> notetaker with an iDevice. I've been toying with the idea of investing in a
> U2 for reading books, taking notes and performing similar quick tasks.
> 
> Questions:
> 
> 1. I've heard there are displays that let you type text and then send to the
> iDevice in one burst. I don't understand the mechanics of this, but what are
> the displays you know that do this?
I'm going to miss some, but Hims' Braille Edge or any of their modern 
notetakers, and I think the newest Vario. This works by letting you type 
locally, then press a single key and have the display "type" your text rapidly 
into the text field. At least, that's how I understand it.
> 
> 2. Is Braille input in iOS as dreadful as some people have made it out to
> be? I don't mind learning various keystrokes, but I do mind delays in
> transmition.
Depends on your normal speed and how often you refer to your display to check 
what you're writing. I'll let someone else answer this one more fully
> 
> 3. Is there a means to read BRF in iOS?
The Bard app can do it, with a bit of fiddling. There's no native way or 
dedicated app, though.
> 
> 4. What 32-cell display would you personally recommend?
I don't know enough to say, but the Edge is 40 cells and reasonably priced.
> 
> Thanks guys for any help.
> 
> Joe
> 
> --
> Musings of a Work in Progress:
> www.JoeOrozco.com/
> 
> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe
> 
> 
> -- 
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Have a great day,
Alex Hall
mehg...@icloud.com

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