Re: mms case sensitivity build failures (was Re: HP hobbyist license)
On Wed, May 16, 2012 at 10:36:54AM -0600, Mark Berryman wrote: Some answers: 6: How do I deal with filenames with ^. (etc) in them from DCL? Without resorting to bash? Is it really the only option to rename directory names to remove the .s? I don't follow this question. For the first part: Issue the command $ SET PROCESS/PARSE_STYLE=EXTENDED to be able to use filenames with ^ in them. I recommend putting this command in your LOGIN.COM file (let me know if this needs further explaining). If the filename in question is a directory reference you must type the filename as is, including the ^ characters, e.g. [.perl-5^.14^.2] If the filename is a regular file, you can type it in with or without the ^ characters, e.g. file^.c.orig or file.c.orig. I don't know what the .s refers to. Can you provide an example? Sorry, wasn't clear. By .s I meant the periods in the filenames The problem was that I didn't have SET PROCESS/PARSE_STYLE=EXTENDED I do now. I've also found that I can avoid most of the problems in the first place by generating my perl tarball on Linux like this: commit=`git rev-parse --short=12 HEAD`; tar cf perl-$commit.tar --files-from (sed -e 's/[ ].*//' MANIFEST) --transform 's!^!perl-'$commit'/!' from within a checkout, which gets me a tar with a clean name such as perl-247d6b204efe.tar with the internal pathnames prefixed with perl-247d6b204efe, and all the files nicely read-write. It looks like current *BSD tar can do the same trick, but the options have different names. This might need more knowledge of the machine than the above -v and -V reveal 7: How do I actually use the libraries of that installed perl 5.8.6? The directory tree where perl is installed will be pointed to by the logical name PERL_ROOT. Try $ DIR PERL_ROOT:[LIB] as a starter. The perl sharable image that one must link to will be pointed to by the logical name PERLSHR. Simply use the name PERLSHR in any link procedure to link to that library. It seems that the system setup wasn't correct. They've fixed it now - the system installed perl 5.8.6 now works. I bought my system directly from Compaq/HP, with licenses, so I have no problem doing any form of development. If it will help, you are welcome to an account here. Thanks for the offer. I think (for now) it's much easier if I stick to the HP porting system, as it's a known quantity. In particular, it's known to John E. Malmberg, which means that he's mostly already worked out how to fix or work around the causes underlying the problems I describe. Nicholas Clark
Re: HP hobbyist license
On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 04:11:32PM +, Craig A. Berry wrote: I believe you can still get an account on an HP server for purposes of open source porting. See (Which of course is what I'm now using) In that case HP would be the license holder. Also, it might be something slightly less ancient than the old alpha the deathrow folks have. George Greer started down this path to set up a smoker and got tangled up at how different it is from anything he's used to, but he did get as far as a relatively clean build of 5.14.1. It would be *very* useful to have a VMS smoker automatically processing smoke-me branches. I've not looked at the smoke testing code, but the biggest concerns I'd have are 0: Can the machine cope with it? I suspect that smoke-testing is a full time job. 1: Are HP happy with it? :-) 2: Presumably the smoker process fires off with cron, or somesuch. I don't know any VMS sysadmin type stuff to translate how things are done from Unix. Nicholas Clark
Re: scp to VMS (Re: mms case sensitivity build failures (was Re: HP hobbyist license))
On 5/22/2012 3:18 PM, Mark Berryman wrote: Instead, I simply built libssh2 on the unix box and used the example program sftp_write.c I just tried the sftp program in Scientific Linux 6.1 and it can upload files. The help for it says that it can recursively upload a directory. It looks like uploads either require interactive mode, or batch file mode. Downloads can be done with a simple command line. Or, use Multinet. It is just so much better. Not an option in this case, the remote system is maintained by HP. I also found that 'scp -2' is supposed to force SCP into using V2 of the protocol. No change seen in behavior from doing this. Regards, -John Personal Opinion Only
Re: scp to VMS (Re: mms case sensitivity build failures (was Re: HP hobbyist license))
On May 23, 2012, at 5:22 PM, John E. Malmberg wrote: I also found that 'scp -2' is supposed to force SCP into using V2 of the protocol. No change seen in behavior from doing this. I think that means version 2 of ssh, the network protocol, whereas scp2 uses sftp as the file transfer protocol instead of rcp as the file transfer protocol like plain old scp does. ___ Craig A. Berry mailto:craigbe...@mac.com ... getting out of a sonnet is much more difficult than getting in. Brad Leithauser
Re: scp to VMS (Re: mms case sensitivity build failures (was Re: HP hobbyist license))
On May 19, 2012, at 11:03 AM, John E. Malmberg wrote: On 5/19/2012 2:56 AM, Nicholas Clark wrote: Yes, this is the fun, and why it turns out that scp from VMS out to *nix works, but not the other way. Pretty much every *nix is using OpenSSH, whereas the VMS ssh is commercial ssh. OpenSSH has the original scp command, which I think is actually the source code of rcp with some edits. The rcp design is to have the same binary able to act as client and server. OpenSSH also provides sftp. snip I am passing on the following information to the Office of VMS Programs: It appears that the issue with SCP into TCPIP 5.7, is that it is trying to run the program TCPIP$SSH_SCP1.EXE, and generates that error message when it fails. Which means that either that image is missing from the kit or it was never built. From trying to substitute tcpip$ssh_scp2.exe for it, I get a different error about unexpected new-line. This means that if the issue is more complicated than just the image accidentally left out of the TCPIP KIT, we could probably substitute an open source program by assigning the logical name TCPIP$SSH_SCP1 to it. The OpenSSH project contains an SCP1 program that will probably work. When one TCPIP services node uses SCP to speak to another TCPIP services node, it properly invokes the SFTP subsystem to handle the file transfer. When SCP from any other system, including a VMS system running Multinet, tries to speak SCP to a system running TCPIP services, this does not happen and the transfer fails. I have not dug into why it works when TCPIP services is talking to itself but not when anyone else tries to talk to it. Instead, I simply built libssh2 on the unix box and used the example program sftp_write.c to put a simple transfer program together. As written, the command sftp_write host_ip_addr username password source_file dest_file works when talking to a TCPIP services host. It is fairly trivial to change the code to accept standard SCP syntax and use public-key authentication. Or, use Multinet. It is just so much better. Mark Berryman
Re: scp to VMS (Re: mms case sensitivity build failures (was Re: HP hobbyist license))
Hello, well you might be able to not use your normal account for the transfer, but a special one confined to a restricted shell (aka captive account for the VMS only people on the list ;-) If you do go down the http route, curl is available on VMS too for command line access to http. Greetings, Martin P.S. And yes, it is pretty annoying that scp is broken on VMS since a long time |-- |Nicholas Clark| |n...@ccl4.org | |Sent by: Nicholas | |Clark | |n...@flirble.org| | | | | |19/05/2012 09:47 | |-- -- | | | | | To| |martin.zin...@eurexchange.com | | cc| |Craig A. Berry craigbe...@mac.com, Thomas Pfau tfp...@gmail.com, VMSperl Mailing List vmsperl@perl.org | | Subject| |Re: scp to VMS (Re: mms case sensitivity build failures (was Re: HP hobbyist license))| | | | | | | | | | | -- ---| | | ---| On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 09:48:43AM +0200, martin.zin...@eurexchange.com wrote: Hello, a.) Agree with Craig on scp . If this is fixed either it is extremely recent (doesn't work with 5.7 ECO 3) or it needs some additional magic. b.) In case you just need to move around Perl source files, which are not terribly secret, you could use FTP instead of scp. On the VMS side of the house, the easiest way to do so is The source files aren't terribly secret, but any password I need to log into the remote server I'm getting them from is. :-( (Although therefore I could just serve them up over HTTP and solve it that way) Nicholas Clark
Re: mms case sensitivity build failures (was HP hobbyist license)
On 16 May 2012 17:34, Craig A. Berry craigbe...@mac.com wrote: On May 16, 2012, at 06:34 AM, Nicholas Clark n...@ccl4.org wrote: ... 5: What's the DCL equivalent of rm -rf? Is it really a Perl 1-liner with File::Path::remove_tree()? The Perl one-liner works but is of course very slow. If you are on 8.4 (do show system/noproc to check) then delete/tree is available. Something like delete/tree [.blead...]*.*;* should wipe out the blead directory and all its children. IIRC you can also use backup with the null device: BACKUP/DELETE [.blead...]*.*;* NL:a.b/SAVE_SET
Re: scp to VMS (Re: mms case sensitivity build failures (was Re: HP hobbyist license))
On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 09:48:43AM +0200, martin.zin...@eurexchange.com wrote: Hello, a.) Agree with Craig on scp . If this is fixed either it is extremely recent (doesn't work with 5.7 ECO 3) or it needs some additional magic. b.) In case you just need to move around Perl source files, which are not terribly secret, you could use FTP instead of scp. On the VMS side of the house, the easiest way to do so is The source files aren't terribly secret, but any password I need to log into the remote server I'm getting them from is. :-( (Although therefore I could just serve them up over HTTP and solve it that way) Nicholas Clark
Re: scp to VMS (Re: mms case sensitivity build failures (was Re: HP hobbyist license))
On Thu, May 17, 2012 at 12:16:14PM -0500, Craig A. Berry wrote: On May 17, 2012, at 5:49 AM, Thomas Pfau wrote: I understand this problem is fixed with the new ssh that comes with OpenVMS 8.4. Prior to this, scp does not work to openssh systems. It seems not, actually. With a server that looks like: $ tcpip show vers HP TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS Industry Standard 64 Version V5.7 - ECO 2 on an HP rx2600 (1.50GHz/6.0MB) running OpenVMS V8.4 coming from an OS X client (with remote address changed to protect the guilty): So while I probably had the nomenclature and version numbers confused in my previous post, there is definitely something still wrong with agreeing on a mutually acceptable version of something. It looks like it's a very old problem for servers that do not support multiple protocols: http://www.snailbook.com/faq/scp-ossh-to-ssh2.auto.html. Yes, this is the fun, and why it turns out that scp from VMS out to *nix works, but not the other way. Pretty much every *nix is using OpenSSH, whereas the VMS ssh is commercial ssh. OpenSSH has the original scp command, which I think is actually the source code of rcp with some edits. The rcp design is to have the same binary able to act as client and server. OpenSSH also provides sftp. What then happened was that the commercial ssh tools were re-written, with scp2 being a new version, command-line compatible with the existing scp, but implemented completely differently. Instead of using ssh to start another instance of the scp program on the remote host, it uses the sftp subsystem. This is why one can run scp on VMS to talk to a *nix system, but not the other way. (Been ill for the past couple of days, hence why I've not replied to any e-mail. Or done much else, either, for that matter) Nicholas Clark
Re: scp to VMS (Re: mms case sensitivity build failures (was Re: HP hobbyist license))
On 5/19/2012 2:56 AM, Nicholas Clark wrote: Yes, this is the fun, and why it turns out that scp from VMS out to *nix works, but not the other way. Pretty much every *nix is using OpenSSH, whereas the VMS ssh is commercial ssh. OpenSSH has the original scp command, which I think is actually the source code of rcp with some edits. The rcp design is to have the same binary able to act as client and server. OpenSSH also provides sftp. snip I am passing on the following information to the Office of VMS Programs: It appears that the issue with SCP into TCPIP 5.7, is that it is trying to run the program TCPIP$SSH_SCP1.EXE, and generates that error message when it fails. Which means that either that image is missing from the kit or it was never built. From trying to substitute tcpip$ssh_scp2.exe for it, I get a different error about unexpected new-line. This means that if the issue is more complicated than just the image accidentally left out of the TCPIP KIT, we could probably substitute an open source program by assigning the logical name TCPIP$SSH_SCP1 to it. The OpenSSH project contains an SCP1 program that will probably work. Regards, -John
Re: scp to VMS (Re: mms case sensitivity build failures (was Re: HP hobbyist license))
Hello, a.) Agree with Craig on scp . If this is fixed either it is extremely recent (doesn't work with 5.7 ECO 3) or it needs some additional magic. b.) In case you just need to move around Perl source files, which are not terribly secret, you could use FTP instead of scp. On the VMS side of the house, the easiest way to do so is CFD004 copy/ftp temp.txt 10.10.245.115zinsmar password::exchange/ /log %TCPIP-S-FTP_COPIED, SYSPROG$DISK:[ZINSER]temp.txt;1 copied to 10.10.245.115zinsmar password::exchange/temp.txt (10 bytes) CFD004 copy/ftp 10.10.245.115zinsmar password::exchange/temp.txt *.*/log %TCPIP-S-FTP_COPIED, 10.10.245.115zinsmar password::exchange/temp.txt copied to SYSPROG$DISK:[ZINSER]temp.txt;2 (10 bytes) Where password in the command has to be replaced with your actual password. I am sure you know how to do this on the Unix side of the house ;-) Greetings, Martin | |Craig A. Berry| |craigbe...@mac.com| || |17/05/2012 19:16| | -- | | | | | To| |Thomas Pfau tfp...@gmail.com | | cc| |VMSperl Mailing List vmsperl@perl.org | | Subject| |Re: scp to VMS (Re: mms case sensitivity build failures (was Re: HP hobbyist license))| | | | | | | | | | | -- ---| | | ---| On May 17, 2012, at 5:49 AM, Thomas Pfau wrote: I understand this problem is fixed with the new ssh that comes with OpenVMS 8.4. Prior to this, scp does not work to openssh systems. It seems not, actually. With a server that looks like: $ tcpip show vers HP TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS Industry Standard 64 Version V5.7 - ECO 2 on an HP rx2600 (1.50GHz/6.0MB) running OpenVMS V8.4 coming from an OS X client (with remote address changed to protect the guilty): % scp -v test.txt craig@192.168.1.2: Executing: program /usr/bin/ssh host 192.168.1.2, user craig, command scp -v -t -- . OpenSSH_5.6p1, OpenSSL 0.9.8r 8 Feb 2011 debug1: Reading configuration data /Users/craig/.ssh/config debug1: Reading configuration data /etc/ssh_config debug1: Applying options for * debug1: Connecting to 192.168.1.2 [192.168.1.2] port 22. debug1: Connection established. debug1: identity file /Users/craig/.ssh/id_rsa type 1 debug1: identity file /Users/craig/.ssh/id_rsa-cert type -1 debug1: identity file /Users/craig/.ssh/id_dsa type -1 debug1: identity file /Users/craig/.ssh/id_dsa-cert type -1 debug1: Remote protocol version 2.0, remote software version 3.2.0 SSH OpenVMS V5.5 VMS_sftp_version 3 debug1: no match: 3.2.0 SSH OpenVMS V5.5 VMS_sftp_version 3 debug1: Enabling compatibility mode for protocol 2.0 debug1: Local version string SSH-2.0-OpenSSH_5.6 debug1: SSH2_MSG_KEXINIT sent debug1: SSH2_MSG_KEXINIT received debug1: kex: server-client aes128-cbc hmac-md5 none debug1: kex: client-server aes128-cbc hmac-md5 none debug1: sending SSH2_MSG_KEXDH_INIT debug1: expecting
Re: scp to VMS (Re: mms case sensitivity build failures (was Re: HP hobbyist license))
I understand this problem is fixed with the new ssh that comes with OpenVMS 8.4. Prior to this, scp does not work to openssh systems. On Wed, May 16, 2012 at 11:17 PM, Craig A. Berry craigbe...@mac.com wrote: On May 16, 2012, at 11:36 AM, Mark Berryman wrote: 1: Is there any easy way to get an scp2 client for Unix, so that I can scp to them? (And use editors remotely) SCP clients definitely work to VMS systems as I use them extensively. It has been awhile since I set up a TCPIP Services system (I use Multinet myself) but, if you have any error messages or log files, especially from the VMS side, I may be able to help. I'm almost positive scp only works with Multinet, not TCP/IP Services. IIRC, the HP scp server errors out with something about not talking SSH 1.0, only 2.0, but in fact it is its own fault for failing to recognize the 2.0 handshake sent by the client. If someone has a contrary example of using a modern scp client to talk to the TCP/IP Services server, I'd love to know how to make it work. Craig A. Berry mailto:craigbe...@mac.com ... getting out of a sonnet is much more difficult than getting in. Brad Leithauser -- Thomas Pfau tfp...@gmail.com http://www.linkedin.com/in/thomaspfau http://nbpfaus.net/~pfau/
Re: mms case sensitivity build failures (was Re: HP hobbyist license)
On May 16, 2012, at 8:34 AM, Nicholas Clark wrote: 8: The Alpha machine fails the build because the target is converted to uppercase. How come no-one else has this problem? MMS says: $ mms/ident %MMS-I-IDENT, MMS V3.8 © Copyright 2007 Hewlett-Packard Development Company, L.P This is likely an MMS 3.8 bug as 3.8-2 on the Itanium doesn't have it. I can't reproduce it with 3.9. Hopefully John's nudge will get them to upgrade these tools. 9: The IA64 machine *initially* fails like this: MCR PTAC$DKA0:[NCLARK.I.perl5160-RC2]miniperl.exe -I[--.lib] -I[--.lib] -ME xtUtils::Command -e cp -- DYNALOADER.OPT [--.LIB.AUTO.DYNALOADER]DYNALOADER .OPT %MMS-F-GWKNOACTS, Actions to update DL_VMS.C are unknown. %MMS-F-GWKNOACTS, Actions to update DL_VMS.C are unknown. The problem here is that MMK can infer that it needs to generate dl_vms.c from dl_vms.xs, but MMS can't do that. I think I know why no-one else sees this - relates to Q10 as to why it's hidden.. The generated descrip.mms is wrong, and presumably has been for ages. DLSRC should be dl_vms.xs, not dl_vms.c. For example, on HP-UX: $ grep DLSRC ext/DynaLoader/Makefile DLSRC = dl_hpux.xs DynaLoader.xs: $(DLSRC) So, I think that that should change. Good catch. It should be fixable like so: --- configure.com;-02012-02-17 12:27:14 -0600 +++ configure.com 2012-05-17 12:01:16 -0500 @@ -6344,7 +6344,7 @@ $ WC devtype=' + devtype + ' $ WC direntrytype='struct dirent' $ WC dlext=' + dlext + ' $ WC dlobj=' + dlobj + ' -$ WC dlsrc='dl_vms.c' +$ WC dlsrc='dl_vms.xs' $ WC doublesize=' + doublesize + ' $ WC drand01=' + drand01 + ' $ WC dtrace=' + ' [end] but doesn't really matter as long as the make utility knows how to get dl_vms.c from dl_vms.xs. If I work round it like this: $ set default [.ext.DynaLoader] $ MMS all /MACRO=(DLSRC=dl_vms.xs) $ set default [--] and restart the make, it then fails like this: MCR PTAC$DKA0:[NCLARK.I.PERL5160-RC2]miniperl.exe -I[--.lib] -I[--.lib] -ME xtUtils::Command -e cp -- CWD.OPT [--.LIB.AUTO.CWD]CWD.OPT %MMS-F-GWKNOACTS, Actions to update CWD.C are unknown. %MMS-F-GWKNOACTS, Actions to update CWD.C are unknown. Unsuccessful make(dist/Cwd): code=1024 at make_ext.pl line 466. Different mms: $ mms/ident %MMS-I-IDENT, MMS V3.8-2 © Copyright 2007 Hewlett-Packard Development Company, L .P. 10: How come I'm seeing errors due to case sensitive treatment of .xs.c suffix rules? How come no-one else hits this? I don't think it's a case sensitivity problem here. MMS simply cannot handle *implicit* .xs.c rules. MMS used to work because those rules were explicit in MakeMaker. In one of the great refactorings some years ago, Schwern made the rules implicit, which broke MMS builds. I complained, but he regarded it as an MMS bug and wasn't willing to work around it. He's probably right about its being an MMS bug. I've long intended to have another crack at working around it, but obviously haven't gotten it done yet. I'm going to punt on the MMS issues for the moment. The short answer is you cannot build Perl with MMS currently but must use MMK, available here: http://www.kednos.com/kednos/Open_Source/MMK. In which case, README.vms needs some updating :-) I would rather get it working than document that it doesn't work, but yes, it would've saved you some time if the documentation reflected the reality. ___ Craig A. Berry mailto:craigbe...@mac.com ... getting out of a sonnet is much more difficult than getting in. Brad Leithauser
Re: scp to VMS (Re: mms case sensitivity build failures (was Re: HP hobbyist license))
On May 17, 2012, at 5:49 AM, Thomas Pfau wrote: I understand this problem is fixed with the new ssh that comes with OpenVMS 8.4. Prior to this, scp does not work to openssh systems. It seems not, actually. With a server that looks like: $ tcpip show vers HP TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS Industry Standard 64 Version V5.7 - ECO 2 on an HP rx2600 (1.50GHz/6.0MB) running OpenVMS V8.4 coming from an OS X client (with remote address changed to protect the guilty): % scp -v test.txt craig@192.168.1.2: Executing: program /usr/bin/ssh host 192.168.1.2, user craig, command scp -v -t -- . OpenSSH_5.6p1, OpenSSL 0.9.8r 8 Feb 2011 debug1: Reading configuration data /Users/craig/.ssh/config debug1: Reading configuration data /etc/ssh_config debug1: Applying options for * debug1: Connecting to 192.168.1.2 [192.168.1.2] port 22. debug1: Connection established. debug1: identity file /Users/craig/.ssh/id_rsa type 1 debug1: identity file /Users/craig/.ssh/id_rsa-cert type -1 debug1: identity file /Users/craig/.ssh/id_dsa type -1 debug1: identity file /Users/craig/.ssh/id_dsa-cert type -1 debug1: Remote protocol version 2.0, remote software version 3.2.0 SSH OpenVMS V5.5 VMS_sftp_version 3 debug1: no match: 3.2.0 SSH OpenVMS V5.5 VMS_sftp_version 3 debug1: Enabling compatibility mode for protocol 2.0 debug1: Local version string SSH-2.0-OpenSSH_5.6 debug1: SSH2_MSG_KEXINIT sent debug1: SSH2_MSG_KEXINIT received debug1: kex: server-client aes128-cbc hmac-md5 none debug1: kex: client-server aes128-cbc hmac-md5 none debug1: sending SSH2_MSG_KEXDH_INIT debug1: expecting SSH2_MSG_KEXDH_REPLY debug1: Host '192.168.1.2' is known and matches the DSA host key. debug1: Found key in /Users/craig/.ssh/known_hosts:13 debug1: ssh_dss_verify: signature correct debug1: SSH2_MSG_NEWKEYS sent debug1: expecting SSH2_MSG_NEWKEYS debug1: SSH2_MSG_NEWKEYS received debug1: Roaming not allowed by server debug1: SSH2_MSG_SERVICE_REQUEST sent debug1: SSH2_MSG_SERVICE_ACCEPT received Welcome to HP OpenVMS Industry Standard 64 Operating System, Version V8.4 debug1: Authentications that can continue: publickey,password debug1: Next authentication method: publickey debug1: Offering RSA public key: /Users/craig/.ssh/id_rsa debug1: Server accepts key: pkalg ssh-rsa blen 149 debug1: Authentication succeeded (publickey). Authenticated to 192.168.1.2 ([192.168.1.2]:22). debug1: channel 0: new [client-session] debug1: Entering interactive session. debug1: Sending environment. debug1: Sending env LANG = en_US.UTF-8 debug1: Sending command: scp -v -t -- . scp1 compatibility mode is not supported. So while I probably had the nomenclature and version numbers confused in my previous post, there is definitely something still wrong with agreeing on a mutually acceptable version of something. It looks like it's a very old problem for servers that do not support multiple protocols: http://www.snailbook.com/faq/scp-ossh-to-ssh2.auto.html. If someone finds an open source scp2 client, please holler. Craig A. Berry mailto:craigbe...@mac.com ... getting out of a sonnet is much more difficult than getting in. Brad Leithauser
Re: mms case sensitivity build failures (was Re: HP hobbyist license)
On May 17, 2012, at 11:15 AM, Craig A. Berry wrote: On May 16, 2012, at 8:34 AM, Nicholas Clark wrote: [some text deleted] 9: The IA64 machine *initially* fails like this: MCR PTAC$DKA0:[NCLARK.I.perl5160-RC2]miniperl.exe -I[--.lib] -I[--.lib] -ME xtUtils::Command -e cp -- DYNALOADER.OPT [--.LIB.AUTO.DYNALOADER]DYNALOADER .OPT %MMS-F-GWKNOACTS, Actions to update DL_VMS.C are unknown. %MMS-F-GWKNOACTS, Actions to update DL_VMS.C are unknown. The problem here is that MMK can infer that it needs to generate dl_vms.c from dl_vms.xs, but MMS can't do that. Makefile.pl is currently placing the following lines in the MMS file: .SUFFIXES : .SUFFIXES : $(OBJ_EXT) .c .cpp .cxx .xs and .xs.c : $(XSUBPPRUN) $(XSPROTOARG) $(XSUBPPARGS) $(MMS$TARGET_NAME).xs $(MMS$TARGET) and (for this particular instance) dl_win32.c dl_aix.c dl_dld.c dl_vmesa.c dl_dllload.c dl_dyld.c dl_none.c dl_hpux.c dl_beos.c dl_mpeix.c dl_dlopen.c dl_next.c dl_symbian.c dl_vms.c : $(XSUBPPDEPS) MMK then searches the list of suffixes that follow .c to see if it has a rule to build the .c file since no explicit action is given. It finds the .xs.c rule and executes it. MMS does not do this. There are two ways to address this. 1. Instead of having makefile.pl write out the .xs.c line as a user-defined rule, write it out as an action line after the 3rd entry above so that it reads like this: dl_win32.c dl_aix.c dl_dld.c dl_vmesa.c dl_dllload.c dl_dyld.c dl_none.c dl_hpux.c dl_beos.c dl_mpeix.c dl_dlopen.c dl_next.c dl_symbian.c dl_vms.c : $(XSUBPPDEPS) $(XSUBPPRUN) $(XSPROTOARG) $(XSUBPPARGS) $(MMS$TARGET_NAME).xs $(MMS$TARGET) 2. When makefile.pl writes out the .xs.c user-defined rule, have it add the following: .DEFAULT : IF F$LOCATE(]XSUBPP,$+) .NE. F$LENGTH($+) THEN $(XSUBPPRUN) $(XSPROTOARG) $(XSUBPPARGS) $(MMS$TARGET_NAME).xs $(MMS$TARGET) The second option has the added benefit of providing a null action for anything else that MMS can't figure out how to build which takes care of the actions to build STATIC not found error as well. On an unrelated issue: Can the code invoked by makefile.pl tell whether perl itself is being built or if a perl extension is being built? If so, would it be possible to have the install part of the perl build process add the following files with their indicated contents to the directory PERL_ROOT:[LIB…CORE]? __DECC_INCLUDE_EPILOGUE.H #pragma names restore __DECC_INCLUDE_PROLOGUE.H;1 #pragma names save #pragma names uppercase #pragma names truncated This way, the makefile.pl for extensions can automatically add /names=(as_is,shortened) to the CC command line when building extensions. This is a requirement to build a number of extensions, not only because they might use an external library with very long names but also because some programmers out there still think it is clever to use different routine/variable names that differ only in case. Those two files will cause all files included in, or by, the […core]*.h files to be treated as if /names=(uppercase,truncated) had been specified. The routine that converts .xs to .c already handles truncating any names that are part of perl so the shortened only takes effect for references to external libraries. Alternatively, one could build perl with /names=shortened, and change the prologue file accordingly, and completely eliminate the process of manually shortening names. Thoughts? Mark Berryman
names case-preserved and shortened (Re: mms case sensitivity build failures (was Re: HP hobbyist license))
On May 17, 2012, at 2:47 PM, Mark Berryman wrote: Can the code invoked by makefile.pl tell whether perl itself is being built or if a perl extension is being built? If so, would it be possible to have the install part of the perl build process add the following files with their indicated contents to the directory PERL_ROOT:[LIB…CORE]? __DECC_INCLUDE_EPILOGUE.H #pragma names restore __DECC_INCLUDE_PROLOGUE.H;1 #pragma names save #pragma names uppercase #pragma names truncated This way, the makefile.pl for extensions can automatically add /names=(as_is,shortened) to the CC command line when building extensions. This is a requirement to build a number of extensions, not only because they might use an external library with very long names but also because some programmers out there still think it is clever to use different routine/variable names that differ only in case. Those two files will cause all files included in, or by, the […core]*.h files to be treated as if /names=(uppercase,truncated) had been specified. The routine that converts .xs to .c already handles truncating any names that are part of perl so the shortened only takes effect for references to external libraries. Alternatively, one could build perl with /names=shortened, and change the prologue file accordingly, and completely eliminate the process of manually shortening names. Thoughts? Starting with Perl 5.14.0, we use the compiler's name shortening by default: http://perl5.git.perl.org/perl.git/commit/1171624bdbd2f8fae38ebe18d7a2616c4435098c?f=configure.com and the compiler options you build Perl with should automatically be used for extension building. While it's a slight digression from extension building, I'll go ahead and mention that we solve the problem of predicting shortened symbol names for the linker options file used to create perlshr.exe by implementing the exact same algorithm the compiler uses to shorten symbols: http://perl5.git.perl.org/perl.git/commitdiff/24ad4a07e88519ae8e63d0b67d519e62a935b577 So that leaves building extensions using /NAMES=AS_IS. If I understand your trick with the prologue, it makes symbols declared in Perl's own headers get upper cased (and thus compatible with the default configuration of the core) while leaving any other symbols to get what you've given them on the command line. That's clever, but sounds fragile to me in that various changes to MakeMaker or ExtUtils:CBuilder or the core build process could break it, plus it would have to be done differently based on different configuration options. ISTR that building Perl with -Dusecasesensitive ran into some problem with object libraries. I would rather take another crack at resolving that and have that be the supported way to get case sensitive symbols. Craig A. Berry mailto:craigbe...@mac.com ... getting out of a sonnet is much more difficult than getting in. Brad Leithauser
mms case sensitivity build failures (was Re: HP hobbyist license)
Questions for my new blockers at the end. On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 06:30:16PM -0500, John E. Malmberg wrote: On 5/15/2012 12:52 PM, Carl Friedberg wrote: At this very moment, all 3 of my VMS servers are unreachable, but normally they are accessible. I have two (pretty ancient) AlphaServer 800's, single 500mhz processor, 2 Gb memory, running recent VMS with hobbyist licenses. I also have an Itanium RX2600 dual-core box running OpenVMS 8.4 (similar to the one Craig uses, I suspect). All of these are available to perl developers. Send me an e-mail and I will set up an account for you. Thanks for this offer (and to the person who mailed me privately earlier and set me up an account on a machine, who may not want to be publicly named. The problem is that as Nicholas Clark is being paid for this work, it may not be legal to do it on a system licensed with Hobby licenses. This is precisely the problem. It's a grey area. I'm being paid. Whilst I'm being paid by a US 501(c)(3) non-profit, I'm not an employee of *it* - effectively I'm a consultant, albeit at very non-consultant rates. As part of an offline conversation, Nicholas Clark is getting access to the HP Open Source cluster, which should cover the licensing issue. HP have (re)enabled the account on the server which dates from 2010, but I was unable to get working then. (Strangely, I did have a different ssh host key for both IPs in known_hosts on one of my shell accounts, so I don't really know what the history of this is. I don't mind. Access works now) I have solved *one* question I had - it's commercial SSH, key *filenames* go in [.ssh2]authorization and keys (converted from OpenSSH format) go into that directory. But as it's commercial SSH, scp doesn't work from any Unix system. Even HP-UX ssh: OpenSSH_5.3p1+sftpfilecontrol-v1.3-hpn13v5, OpenSSL 0.9.8l 5 Nov 2009 HP-UX Secure Shell-A.05.30.008, HP-UX Secure Shell version Left hand, meet right hand please. So I'm left with sftp, which is functional, but not as automatable. The banner on each machine says that many things are installed, including Perl, but I can't even work out how to invoke them natively, and even from bash, I can't figure out how to The clocks are wrong on the machines. The time*zone* seems to be set up correctly for Indian Standard Time, but right now it thinks it's: Wed May 16 09:08:35 IST 2012 whereas the time really is Wed 16 May 2012 14:23:59 BST I need to report this and request it to be fixed, as the future times on incoming files cause repeated builds. Which I can only work around painfully by force-touching files to a different datestamp before building. So, general questions 1: Is there any easy way to get an scp2 client for Unix, so that I can scp to them? (And use editors remotely) 2: Does rsync exist for VMS? 3: Does ccache exist for VMS? 4: What is the ls command, and how do I escape from it when I run it accidentally? 5: What's the DCL equivalent of rm -rf? Is it really a Perl 1-liner with File::Path::remove_tree()? 6: How do I deal with filenames with ^. (etc) in them from DCL? Without resorting to bash? Is it really the only option to rename directory names to remove the .s? This might need more knowledge of the machine than the above -v and -V reveal 7: How do I actually use the libraries of that installed perl 5.8.6? Actual build problems: 8: The Alpha machine fails the build because the target is converted to uppercase. How come no-one else has this problem? ptac$dka0:[nclark.a.perl5160-rc2]miniperl.exe;2 -I../../lib Makefile.PL INS T_LIB=[--.lib] INST_ARCHLIB=[--.lib] PERL_CORE=1 Writing Descrip.MMS for Pod::Simple %MMS-F-BADTARG, Specified target (CONFIG) does not exist in the description file . %MMS-F-BADTARG, Specified target (CONFIG) does not exist in the description file . MMS config /DESCRIPTION=descrip.mms /MACRO=(PERL_CORE=1) failed, continuing a nyway... Making all in cpan/Pod-Simple MMS all /DESCRIPTION=descrip.mms /MACRO=(PERL_CORE=1) %MMS-F-BADTARG, Specified target (ALL) does not exist in the description file. %MMS-F-BADTARG, Specified target (ALL) does not exist in the description file. Unsuccessful make(cpan/Pod-Simple): code=1024 at make_ext.pl line 466. %MMS-F-NOMSG, Message number 00EE826C %MMS-F-ABORT, For target nonxsext, CLI returned abort status: %X00EE826C. -MMS-F-BADTARG, Specified target (!AS) does not exist in the description file. MMS says: $ mms/ident %MMS-I-IDENT, MMS V3.8 © Copyright 2007 Hewlett-Packard Development Company, L.P . I think I can see how to fix it in make_ext.pl by using quotes, but what else will it break? And how come no-one else has this problem. 9: The IA64 machine *initially* fails like this: MCR PTAC$DKA0:[NCLARK.I.perl5160-RC2]miniperl.exe -I[--.lib] -I[--.lib] -ME xtUtils::Command -e cp -- DYNALOADER.OPT [--.LIB.AUTO.DYNALOADER]DYNALOADER .OPT %MMS-F-GWKNOACTS, Actions to update DL_VMS.C are unknown. %MMS-F-GWKNOACTS,
Re: mms case sensitivity build failures (was HP hobbyist license)
On May 16, 2012, at 06:34 AM, Nicholas Clark n...@ccl4.org wrote: So, general questions 1: Is there any easy way to get an scp2 client for Unix, so that I can scp to them? (And use editors remotely)I've never gottten scp to work and always use sftp. There should be a vim available; how well it works I don't know as there have been some pretty good versions and some pretty bad ones.2: Does rsync exist for VMS?No. I build zipballs and upload them.3: Does ccache exist for VMS?No.4: What is the ls command, and how do I escape from it when I run it accidentally?You end up in LSE (Language Sensitive Editor). Ctrl-Z should get you out or at least get you to a command prompt where you can type "exit". Ctrl-Z is the EOF character and is used in many situations where Ctrl-D would be used on a Unix system.5: What's the DCL equivalent of rm -rf? Is it really a Perl 1-liner with File::Path::remove_tree()?The Perl one-liner works but is of course very slow. If you are on 8.4 (do "show system/noproc" to check) then "delete/tree" is available. Something like "delete/tree [.blead...]*.*;*" should wipe out the blead directory and all its children.6: How do I deal with filenames with ^. (etc) in them from DCL? Without resorting to bash? Is it really the only option to rename directory names to remove the .s?To rename perl-5^.16^.0-RC2.DIR (for example) to something manageable, do:$ set process/parse=extended$ rename perl-5^.16^.0-RC2.DIR perl-5_16_0-RC2.DIRThis might need more knowledge of the machine than the above -v and -V reveal 7: How do I actually use the libraries of that installed perl 5.8.6?Not sure what you mean by using the libraries. You can see what Perl you're pointing at with:$ show symbol perl*$ show logical perl*Actual build problems: 8: The Alpha machine fails the build because the target is converted to uppercase. How come no-one else has this problem? I'm going to punt on the MMS issues for the moment. The short answer is you cannot build Perl with MMS currently but must use MMK, available here: http://www.kednos.com/kednos/Open_Source/MMK.
Re: mms case sensitivity build failures (was Re: HP hobbyist license)
Some answers: [some text edited] So, general questions 1: Is there any easy way to get an scp2 client for Unix, so that I can scp to them? (And use editors remotely) SCP clients definitely work to VMS systems as I use them extensively. It has been awhile since I set up a TCPIP Services system (I use Multinet myself) but, if you have any error messages or log files, especially from the VMS side, I may be able to help. 2: Does rsync exist for VMS? 3: Does ccache exist for VMS? 4: What is the ls command, and how do I escape from it when I run it accidentally? LS is short for LSE, the language-sensitive editor on VMS. Simply press ^Z if you get into accidentally to exit it. 5: What's the DCL equivalent of rm -rf? Is it really a Perl 1-liner with File::Path::remove_tree()? That depends on what version of VMS you are running. If it V8.4 or later, $ DELETE/TREE [.DIRNAME…]*.*;* If it is an earlier version (or also V8.4), $ DFU DELETE/DIR/TREE DIRNAME.DIR If DFU is not installed on the system, you may need that perl one-liner. Note that DELETE/TREE does not delete the top-level directory name but DFU does. 6: How do I deal with filenames with ^. (etc) in them from DCL? Without resorting to bash? Is it really the only option to rename directory names to remove the .s? I don't follow this question. For the first part: Issue the command $ SET PROCESS/PARSE_STYLE=EXTENDED to be able to use filenames with ^ in them. I recommend putting this command in your LOGIN.COM file (let me know if this needs further explaining). If the filename in question is a directory reference you must type the filename as is, including the ^ characters, e.g. [.perl-5^.14^.2] If the filename is a regular file, you can type it in with or without the ^ characters, e.g. file^.c.orig or file.c.orig. I don't know what the .s refers to. Can you provide an example? This might need more knowledge of the machine than the above -v and -V reveal 7: How do I actually use the libraries of that installed perl 5.8.6? The directory tree where perl is installed will be pointed to by the logical name PERL_ROOT. Try $ DIR PERL_ROOT:[LIB] as a starter. The perl sharable image that one must link to will be pointed to by the logical name PERLSHR. Simply use the name PERLSHR in any link procedure to link to that library. These logical names may be redefined in your process to point to a completely different version of perl, if desired. Example: The following logical names are defined in the system-wide logical name table: PERLSHR = PERL_ROOT:[00]PERLSHR.EXE PERL_ROOT = $99$LDA9:[APERL-5_12_1.] The following logical name in my process logical name table PERL_ROOT = $99$LDA9:[APERL-5_14_2.] This lets me work on getting all the extensions I use built for 5.14.2 while the rest of the system uses the existing 5.12.1. Actual build problems: 8: The Alpha machine fails the build because the target is converted to uppercase. How come no-one else has this problem? ptac$dka0:[nclark.a.perl5160-rc2]miniperl.exe;2 -I../../lib Makefile.PL INS T_LIB=[--.lib] INST_ARCHLIB=[--.lib] PERL_CORE=1 Writing Descrip.MMS for Pod::Simple %MMS-F-BADTARG, Specified target (CONFIG) does not exist in the description file . %MMS-F-BADTARG, Specified target (CONFIG) does not exist in the description file . MMS config /DESCRIPTION=descrip.mms /MACRO=(PERL_CORE=1) failed, continuing a nyway... Making all in cpan/Pod-Simple MMS all /DESCRIPTION=descrip.mms /MACRO=(PERL_CORE=1) %MMS-F-BADTARG, Specified target (ALL) does not exist in the description file. %MMS-F-BADTARG, Specified target (ALL) does not exist in the description file. Unsuccessful make(cpan/Pod-Simple): code=1024 at make_ext.pl line 466. %MMS-F-NOMSG, Message number 00EE826C %MMS-F-ABORT, For target nonxsext, CLI returned abort status: %X00EE826C. -MMS-F-BADTARG, Specified target (!AS) does not exist in the description file. MMS says: $ mms/ident %MMS-I-IDENT, MMS V3.8 © Copyright 2007 Hewlett-Packard Development Company, L.P . I think I can see how to fix it in make_ext.pl by using quotes, but what else will it break? And how come no-one else has this problem. 9: The IA64 machine *initially* fails like this: MCR PTAC$DKA0:[NCLARK.I.perl5160-RC2]miniperl.exe -I[--.lib] -I[--.lib] -ME xtUtils::Command -e cp -- DYNALOADER.OPT [--.LIB.AUTO.DYNALOADER]DYNALOADER .OPT %MMS-F-GWKNOACTS, Actions to update DL_VMS.C are unknown. %MMS-F-GWKNOACTS, Actions to update DL_VMS.C are unknown. I think I know why no-one else sees this - relates to Q10 as to why it's hidden.. The generated descrip.mms is wrong, and presumably has been for ages. DLSRC should be dl_vms.xs, not dl_vms.c. For example, on HP-UX: $ grep DLSRC ext/DynaLoader/Makefile DLSRC = dl_hpux.xs DynaLoader.xs: $(DLSRC) So, I think that that should change. If I work round it like this: $ set default
Re: mms case sensitivity build failures (was HP hobbyist license)
On Wed, May 16, 2012 at 04:34:18PM +, Craig A. Berry wrote: [snip useful answers which aren't directly blocking] 8: The Alpha machine fails the build because the target is converted to uppercase. How come no-one else has this problem? I'm going to punt on the MMS issues for the moment. The short answer is you cannot build Perl with MMS currently but must use MMK, available here: http://www.kednos.com/kednos/Open_Source/MMK. In which case, README.vms needs some updating :-) I've downloaded it, built it and installed it by copying to PTAC$DKA0:[NCLARK.bin]mmk (This probably isn't the best idea, as that directory is on the cluster, hence common to the IA64 and alpha machines, so really I'm going to need to figure out a better way of keeping binaries from the two architectures segregated.) In turn, I configure.com, I can't specify MCR PTAC$DKA0:[NCLARK.bin]mmk as my make utility, because this ends up with configure.com bombing out with the current directory as [.UU], having produced a Descrip.MMS which is (IIRC) solely 2 lines of errors about files it can't open. Nor does specifying make work (GNU make 3.78.something is installed) If I specify mmk then configure.com does build a Descrip.MMS correctly. However, just running MRC PTAC$DKA0:[NCLARK.bin]mmk soon fails to build further. Doing *this* gets me a lot further: MMK := mcr PTAC$DKA0:[NCLARK.bin]mmk However, the build fails at a subdirectory of Encode: Making all in cpan/Digest-MD5 MMK all /DESCRIPTION=descrip.mms /MACRO=(PERL_CORE=1) Making Digest::SHA (all) Making all in cpan/Digest-SHA MMK all /DESCRIPTION=descrip.mms /MACRO=(PERL_CORE=1) Making Encode (all) Making all in cpan/Encode MMK all /DESCRIPTION=descrip.mms /MACRO=(PERL_CORE=1) Set Default [.byte] MMK/DESCRIPTION=DESCRIP.MMS/MACRO=(PERL_CORE=1) /Descrip= Descrip.MMS all %DCL-W-IVVERB, unrecognized command verb - check validity and spelling \MMK\ %MMK-F-ERRUPD, error status %X00038090 occurred when updating target SUBDIRS %MMK-F-ERRUPD, error status %X00038090 occurred when updating target SUBDIRS Unsuccessful make(cpan/Encode): code=1024 at make_ext.pl line 466. %NONAME-F-NOMSG, Message number 0C14803C %MMK-F-ERRUPD, error status %X0C14803C occurred when updating target DYNEXT This seems to have a lot to do with Encode having subdirectories that also contain FMakefile.PLs. In that, if I try to build SDBM_File: $ mcr []miniperl.exe -Ilib make_ext.pl MAKE=mmk SDBM_File Making SDBM_File (all) Running Makefile.PL in ext/SDBM_File ptac$dka0:[nclark.i.perl5160-rc2-mmk]miniperl.exe;1 -I../../lib Makefile.PL INST_LIB=[--.lib] INST_ARCHLIB=[--.lib] PERL_CORE=1 Writing Descrip.MMS for sdbm Writing Descrip.MMS for SDBM_File Making all in ext/SDBM_File mmk all /DESCRIPTION=descrip.mms /MACRO=(PERL_CORE=1) cp sdbm_file.pm [--.lib]sdbm_file.pm set def [.sdbm] MMK all %DCL-W-IVVERB, unrecognized command verb - check validity and spelling \MMK\ %MMK-F-ERRUPD, error status %X00038090 occurred when updating target [.SDBM]LIBS DBM.OLB %MMK-F-ERRUPD, error status %X00038090 occurred when updating target [.SDBM]LIBS DBM.OLB Unsuccessful make(ext/SDBM_File): code=1024 at make_ext.pl line 466. %NONAME-F-NOMSG, Message number 0C14803C Same failure. The logical mmk is getting forgotten by the time the outer Descrip.MMS is attempting to recurse to the inner Descrip.MMS So, I'm a bit stuck again. When I last build on VMS (back on Testdrive. I liked Testdrive) IIRC it worked fairly smoothly. Or at least, I got it to a point of reliably working. Maybe I forgot the speed bumps on the way. Nicholas Clark PS The above already proves one simplification I can make mcr []miniperl.exe -Ilib make_ext.pl works No need for -I[.dist.Cwd] -I[.dist.Cwd.lib] too. This is why I'm keen to get myself building VMS longer term. Shorter term, it would be nice to verify the perl-5.16.0 release candidate: http://www.cpan.org/src/5.0/perl-5.16.0-RC2.tar.gz
Re: mms case sensitivity build failures (was HP hobbyist license)
with lots of snipsOn May 16, 2012, at 11:43 AM, Nicholas Clark n...@ccl4.org wrote:Doing *this* gets me a lot further: MMK := mcr PTAC$DKA0:[NCLARK.bin]mmk However, the build fails at a subdirectory of Encode: Same failure. The logical "mmk" is getting forgotten by the time the outer Descrip.MMS is attempting to recurse to the inner Descrip.MMSYou need two binaries for the two architectures. Let's call them mmk.alpha_exe and mmk.ia64_exe and you put them both in your bin directory. (Ask if that needs more explaining or instructions.)Then you need to create a file called login.com in the nclark directory and put the following lines in it:$ arch = f$getsyi("ARCH_NAME")$ mmk :== "$PTAC$DKA0:[NCLARK.bin]MMK.''arch'_EXE"Then when you log in you will have the MMK symbol pointing at the correct binary for the architecture you are on. To be pedantically correct (though unnecessary to solve your immediate problem) the definition of MMK here is a foreign command symbol, not a logical name.
scp to VMS (Re: mms case sensitivity build failures (was Re: HP hobbyist license))
On May 16, 2012, at 11:36 AM, Mark Berryman wrote: 1: Is there any easy way to get an scp2 client for Unix, so that I can scp to them? (And use editors remotely) SCP clients definitely work to VMS systems as I use them extensively. It has been awhile since I set up a TCPIP Services system (I use Multinet myself) but, if you have any error messages or log files, especially from the VMS side, I may be able to help. I'm almost positive scp only works with Multinet, not TCP/IP Services. IIRC, the HP scp server errors out with something about not talking SSH 1.0, only 2.0, but in fact it is its own fault for failing to recognize the 2.0 handshake sent by the client. If someone has a contrary example of using a modern scp client to talk to the TCP/IP Services server, I'd love to know how to make it work. Craig A. Berry mailto:craigbe...@mac.com ... getting out of a sonnet is much more difficult than getting in. Brad Leithauser
HP hobbyist license
I would find it really useful to have ssh access to a VMS system for testing perl. Specifically, I'm keen to be able to be able to test tweaks the build system on all of *nix, VMS and Windows so that I don't break anything. *nix isn't a problem as I have access to pretty much everything interesting (except Solaris on Sparc, and arguably Tru64, but they generally don't cause build problems). Win32 is already covered by smoke-me smokers. This leaves VMS. It seems that one can get free ssh accounts on for VMS on the Deathrow cluster - see http://gein.vistech.net/ However, they state that one can only use it to do things acceptable under the Hobbyist License, because that's the terms of their licence from DEC, er Compaq, er HP to run VMS. It's unclear to me whether what I'm doing would be hobbyist, given that I'm being paid. This distinction *is* relevant, because I know that being paid disqualifies one from getting free licences to use Intel's icc, even when one is being paid to work on Open Source. So I'd like to check. But, I can't find the terms of the Hobbyist License *anywhere*. Does anyone have or can point me to a copy that I can read? Nicholas Clark
Re: HP hobbyist license
On May 15, 2012, at 07:24 AM, Nicholas Clark n...@ccl4.org wrote:I would find it really useful to have ssh access to a VMS system for testing perl. Thanks for making the effort.It's unclear to me whether what I'm doing would be hobbyist, given that I'm being paid. It's a good question but I don't know the answer offhand. But, I can't find the terms of the Hobbyist License *anywhere*. Does anyone have or can point me to a copy that I can read?One path would be to sign up for your own licenses at:http://www.openvms.org/pages.php?page=Hobbyistand specifically ask them in the box on the form that says, "In what ways do you use your OpenVMS hobbyist license?" whether what you're doing is allowed.I believe you can still get an account on an HP server for purposes of open source porting. Seehttp://www.openvms.org/stories.php?story=10/02/09/2319162In that case HP would be the license holder. Also, it might be something slightly less ancient than the old alpha the deathrow folks have. George Greer started down this path to set up a smoker and got tangled up at how different it is from anything he's used to, but he did get as far as a relatively clean build of 5.14.1.
RE: HP hobbyist license
At this very moment, all 3 of my VMS servers are unreachable, but normally they are accessible. I have two (pretty ancient) AlphaServer 800's, single 500mhz processor, 2 Gb memory, running recent VMS with hobbyist licenses. I also have an Itanium RX2600 dual-core box running OpenVMS 8.4 (similar to the one Craig uses, I suspect). All of these are available to perl developers. Send me an e-mail and I will set up an account for you. Please be aware that the backups are a bit cranky and the internet connection is a slow T1. Carl Friedberg www.comets.com carl.friedb...@comets.commailto:carl.friedb...@comets.com http://about.me/carl.friedberg From: Craig A. Berry [mailto:craigbe...@mac.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2012 12:12 PM To: Nicholas Clark Cc: vmsperl@perl.org Subject: Re: HP hobbyist license On May 15, 2012, at 07:24 AM, Nicholas Clark n...@ccl4.org wrote: I would find it really useful to have ssh access to a VMS system for testing perl. Thanks for making the effort. It's unclear to me whether what I'm doing would be hobbyist, given that I'm being paid. It's a good question but I don't know the answer offhand. But, I can't find the terms of the Hobbyist License *anywhere*. Does anyone have or can point me to a copy that I can read? One path would be to sign up for your own licenses at: http://www.openvms.org/pages.php?page=Hobbyist and specifically ask them in the box on the form that says, In what ways do you use your OpenVMS hobbyist license? whether what you're doing is allowed. I believe you can still get an account on an HP server for purposes of open source porting. See http://www.openvms.org/stories.php?story=10/02/09/2319162 In that case HP would be the license holder. Also, it might be something slightly less ancient than the old alpha the deathrow folks have. George Greer started down this path to set up a smoker and got tangled up at how different it is from anything he's used to, but he did get as far as a relatively clean build of 5.14.1.
Re: HP hobbyist license
On 5/15/2012 12:52 PM, Carl Friedberg wrote: At this very moment, all 3 of my VMS servers are unreachable, but normally they are accessible. I have two (pretty ancient) AlphaServer 800's, single 500mhz processor, 2 Gb memory, running recent VMS with hobbyist licenses. I also have an Itanium RX2600 dual-core box running OpenVMS 8.4 (similar to the one Craig uses, I suspect). All of these are available to perl developers. Send me an e-mail and I will set up an account for you. The problem is that as Nicholas Clark is being paid for this work, it may not be legal to do it on a system licensed with Hobby licenses. As part of an offline conversation, Nicholas Clark is getting access to the HP Open Source cluster, which should cover the licensing issue. Regards, -John
Re: HP hobbyist license
On May 15, 2012, at 6:30 PM, John E. Malmberg wrote: The problem is that as Nicholas Clark is being paid for this work, it may not be legal to do it on a system licensed with Hobby licenses. The only thing somewhat relevant I can find in my hobbyist license says, Use of the Licensed Computer is ONLY FOR NON-COMMERCIAL USES (e.g., home use). As such, you may not use the Licensed Computer for any business purposes whatsoever, e.g., to develop applications for resale, to do business accounting, etc. The problem with trying to apply this 1980s-style business model here is that we have a third party that makes very serious but entirely free software and wants to make it work on everything it can get its hands on, including a tiny proprietary operating system called OpenVMS owned by a giant company called HP. Producing free software is certainly not for resale by definition. And it's not to do business accounting, etc. because what we're talking about is writing, testing, and generally maintaining free software, which doesn't seem to me is a business purpose at all in the sense envisioned by the hobbyist license. And someone getting paid by a third party to help HP have better software on its systems doesn't *seem* like something HP would want to prevent, but it's hard to tell. The developer program (DSPP or whatever it's called now) doesn't cover this situation at all. It's somewhat ambiguous whether the hobbyist program covers it. It could be worse; it could be IBM, but I digress. I think the best near-term solution is if Nicholas can get his access to the HP open source systems up and running. If that doesn't work post haste, I will do what I can to raise awareness, or raise a stink, or whatever seems to need raising to get things done. Craig A. Berry mailto:craigbe...@mac.com ... getting out of a sonnet is much more difficult than getting in. Brad Leithauser
Re: License
Gerson Freire de Amorim Filho wrote: Hello all. Can anyone borrow me a VAX/VMS license (may be a hobbyst license) for some days? You can get hobbyist licenses for free from http://www.openvmshobbyist.com/.
