Re: [Vo]:Rossi building a commercial reactor

[Che]

On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 10:12 AM, Adrian Ashfield 
wrote:

>
>
Thanks to Frank Acland for eliciting this information.
> http://e-catworld.com/2017/09/04/rossi-first-e-cat-plants-
> under-construction-will-sell-energy-not-plants/




> We learn now that these first plants will sell heat — he won’t be selling
the plants themselves.
>
> In the near term that could make business sense, as it gives Leonardo a
chance to monitor the performance of these
> first plants closely (essentially they will be prototypes), learn how the
plants perform in real world situations, make
> adjustments as needed, while also preventing outside access to the E-Cat
reactors which is the critical IP — at the
> same time making money from selling heat directly to customers.

Which should have been the simple business plan all along.

And at a most modest scale. This is no doubt [grandiose] 'industrial-scale'
from the get-go.

RE: [Vo]: f13C or faux13C

[JonesBeene]

Interesting comments here, thanks.

I do believe that NMR is the way to go for easiest and most reliable detection, 
especially with carbon. Pure carbon should have only one peak – 13C. Nothing 
else.

Basically there would be two kinds of carbon to test – old and young. Old 
carbon as defined herein comes from mineral graphite and is at least 100 
million years in the making, while young carbon comes from activated carbon 
(made from charcoal biomass, thus comparatively young). Both must be pure 
carbon. 

The premise would be that young carbon has one peak only - since most of the 
13C in young carbon is the isotope, just as expected, BUT in old carbon a 
significant fraction is 12C+UDH and this gives two peaks.

In short, the actual NMR signature of young would have only one peak, and that 
of old would have two peaks and it does not get much simpler than that. 

The two peaks could look something like methanol, actually. There is a simple 
route for testing called “benchtop NMR”. This one is on my “wish list”.
http://www.nanalysis.com/?gclid=CjwKCAjwlrnNBRBMEiwApKU4PEbIHuJZGUNC8CFU4ibwPuplnUU4h2204xt0yRJB1iL9B89RWh5Z8BoC49kQAvD_BwE
Nice. They have a database page with spectra which can be used as 
identification. There is a page for carbon 13C compounds – check out ethanol. 
This is what I would expect to see from graphite with significant UDH – two 
peaks instead of one. The UDH should look like a proton in NMR which is the 
second peak but it could be at a different frequency. 

From: bobcook39...@hotmail.com

The magnetic resonance states of the fC13 would be easy to test for and should 
say much about the nature of the entity, if it exists.   An unpaired electron 
in a 1p H(0) would certainly have a unique signature IMHO.  The key would be to 
get enough to test.  

From: Bob Higgins

As I understand it, there are two hydrino-like transitions that could occur, 
perhaps on a 12C atom.  Suppose that the 12C is subject to catalytic hydrino 
formation wherein one of its electron enters a (1/p) state.  Such an electron 
would enter an orbital around the nucleus that is smaller than the s orbital 
and would screen one of the protons from the remainder of the electrons.  This 
would cause it chemical and spectral properties to appear as 12B instead of 
12C.  This would be a very unusual find because real 12B decays with a 
half-life of 20ms and should not be seen in the experiment.  Finding a stable 
signature of 12B would be a likely indicator of formation of the hydrino state 
of 12C.
Now consider that a hydrino hydride ion, described by Mills as H-(1/p) could 
enter a hydrogen nucleus and bind so tightly as to become an innermost orbital 
below the s orbital.  A similar thing would happen in that this tightly bound 
negative charge would screen a proton as far as the remainder of the 12C 
electrons are concerned - it would have a mass of 13, but would chemically and 
spectrally appear as 13B, not 13C.  13B has the same uniqueness in discovery as 
the 12B - because real 13B has a half-life of only 17ms and hence should not be 
found in the experiment.  It would only be determined to be 13C accidentally if 
there were no spectra taken - I.E. in a high resolution mass spectrometer test 
only.  This aspect is certainly not out of the question, as 13B would not be 
anticipated to be found because real 13B would quickly decay most of the time 
to 13C anyway.  If they were to test for the x-ray spectra of B, perhaps the 
hydrino hydride of 12C could be detected.

Note, however, that 13C is stable and is about 1% of natural C.  It is not used 
for dating.  Interestingly, the natural variation of 13C is nearly +/-1%.  
Could the hydrino hydride of 12C cause a measurement uncertainty in the 
isotopic ratio of 13C/12C?

I estimate that hydrino states would be as stable in atoms with multiple 
electrons as they are with hydrogen having a single electron.  The reason is 
that the additional electrons of, say a 12C, provide a possible means of 
evanescent coupling to the innermost (hydrino) electron and provides some 
opportunity to transfer energy without photon transfer and relieve the hydrino 
state.

RE: [Vo]:RE: f13C or faux13C

[bobcook39...@hotmail.com]

Axil—

Keep in mind that Bose particles are those with 0 or integer intrinsic spin , 
either + or -.   I think the theory for BEC allows for existence of a 
condensate of particles with different integer spin states.  Kim’s theory for 
LENR addresses such  a BEC I believe.

The collapse of a BEC which part of an entangled system—a metal lattice for 
example—may allow transfer of the potential energy of the BEC to the lattice 
phonic (kinetic-energy)  while conserving angular momentum.

Bob Cook
From: Axil Axil

Sent: Monday, September 4, 2017 9:39 AM
To: vortex-l
Subject: Re: [Vo]:RE: f13C or faux13C

Correction

therefore decisive

should read

therefore destructive



On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 12:37 PM, Axil Axil 
> wrote:
C12 is a boson and as such is LENR capable. C13 is a fermion and therefore 
decisive to the formation of a bose condensate of atoms. It is reasonable to 
expect that C12 will aid in the production of ultra dense hydrogen.

The same boson characteristic will support the use of lithium that has been 
enriched Li6 over the fermion Li7. All elements used to produce the LENR 
reaction should be a boson which includes hydrogen.


Hydrogen with non-zero spin will not participate in the LENR reaction whereas 
cooper pairs of protons will. Expect LENR reactions centered on pairs of 
protons with zero spin.



Also, as the LERN reaction matures and more NMR active isotopes accumulate, the 
LENR reactor will put out increasing levels or rf radiation derived from the 
nuclear vibrations of the NMR isotope.





This NMR thinking also applies to the nature of the various isotopes of 
hydrogen.



Molecular hydrogen occurs in two isomeric forms, one with its two proton spins 
aligned parallel (orthohydrogen), the other with its two proton spins aligned 
antiparallel (parahydrogen). At room temperature and thermal equilibrium, 
hydrogen consists of approximately 75% orthohydrogen and 25%  parahydrogen.





Orthohydrogen hydrogen has non zero spin, this is bad for Ni/H LENR because the 
non zero spin wastes magnetic energy by producing RF radiation.Parahydrogen 
hydrogen has zero spin. This is good for Ni/H LENR because this type of 
hydrogen is magnetically inactive.





This is a way to increase parahydrogen hydrogen by using a noble metal catalyst.



see



Catalytic process for ortho-para hydrogen conversion



http://www.google.com/patents/US3383176

On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 11:44 AM, JonesBeene 
> wrote:
Here is a detail which came up earlier – the embedded proton concept works best 
in the context of the Mills’ “hydrino hydride” where the proton and two very 
tight electrons combine into a stable ion which replaces carbon’s innermost 
orbital electron. The innermost orbital of carbon would need to have a binding 
strength which is resonant with dense hydrogen in order to do this so Rydberg 
values come into play.

Holmlid, Mills, Miley, Mayer, Meulenberg and others who have written on the 
subject of dense hydrogen have different thinking on the details. They could 
all be partly correct with Mills being the most accurate for this detail (but 
he does not mention 13C).

The innermost carbon electron is bound at slightly less than 490 eV which is 
exactly the 18th Rydberg multiple… yet it is not clear how significant that 
detail is in the context of coal formation.

-

In prior thread, the premise was suggested that there are two different species 
(allotropes) of carbon which are being called carbon-13. One of the two species 
is the normal isotope with 7 neutrons, but the second is carbon-12 with a 
deeply embedded proton of UDH (the ultra-dense hydrogen) of Holmlid.

This result has happened with some types of carbon during the 100 million year 
formation process of decay from ancient vegetation under pressure in coal beds, 
especially anthracite and mineral graphite. This type of coal is often used to 
manufacture the kinds of graphite where physical anomalies have been witnessed.

Here is another piece of evidence which points to a thermal anomaly with carbon 
which could be explained with this hypothesis. (Thanks to Can for the link)

The Replication of an Experiment Which Produced Anomalous Excess 
Energy.pdf
More on those details later…

Re: [Vo]:guaranteed pay

[Alain Sepeda]

I'm not against basic income, but it remind me the problem of Sherpa
transporters when they blocked all Nepal because of Donkey's competition.

the problem was not the donkeys, but that they could not buy a donkey, or
would not be allowed to buy a donkey, won't be allowed to gage their house
for a donkey, wopuld not even imagien they could exploit a donkey instead
of being exploited.

the answer to robot revolution is to become an exploiter of robots, not a
desperate man sad not to be exploited anymore.

An easy solution to replacement of labor by capital, a great improvement
that allwo us to be happier because of our parents work, is to allow
capital dissemination...
worker shareholding, entrepreneurship, allowing deconcentration by
technology revolution...
Concentration is the problem, not capital replacing labor.

Capital in peaceful low growth time have a natural tendency to concentrate,
especially if you protect people from risk and punish mistakes (mummies
economy), and it finish with the strongest taking a growing share of a
diminishing cake, until the desperate poors slaughter the richers.

Another solution was war, destroying mass of capital, established position,
old regulations, tycoons and corporations, allowing new technology and new
organization to be required to rebuild the country, launching a positive
flywheel or innovation with richest keeping their old wealth and happily
stagnating, and poorest getting richer because they have no choice than to
try the new technology, the new works, the new organizations...

In fact a good technology revolution can reshuffle the game like a war, if
the elite are too incompetent to embrace it, and too slow to block it.

Sadly the second point is failing today, as our elite, thanks to democracy
and quasi-religious lobbies, is blocking all technology change but the less
disruptive...

Even AirBnb and uberPop are blocked in paris, beside cold fusion, Emdrive,
GMO, notill farming, AI, Blockchain finance, even immunization and
scientific medecine... at least this is in Western countries...

in china, the memory of real starvation and millions of death probably make
people more daring to escape from poverty. This is the chinese escaping
from starvation who made the planet reduce extreme poverty by an order of
magnitude in a few decades.

Maybe finally that is what i say, that the chinese poors will replace the
western rich who don't understand modern technology...




2017-09-05 15:23 GMT+02:00 Lennart Thornros :

> I think this is a solution. All the rambling about that jobs disappear to
> China, to robots etc. does very little to solve the problem.
> I guess the Republican Party believe this is violates their basic
> philosophy. In reality it is just right on their philosophy. It takes care
> of
> the problem we face when being human (i.e. giving healthcare to uninsured)
> conflicts the rules, it gives freedom to persuade your personal goals.
> I think that it should be combined with limitations in inheritance. There
> are few logical reasons for a distribution based on an agriculture
> society. I think it is hard to find a good solution to inheritance because
> of long time indoctrination. Nothing says that a will or an old law provide
> a fair solution. If society provides the basic human rights, then there is
> little need to take care of the offspring after you are dead. Thus dead
> people's assets could be argued to belong to the community. The problem is
> that to let the political entities take over will make the assets
> detoriate. See communism, everybody owns it but it is nobody's
> responsibility. In my opinion a good solution with today's measurements of
> how to handle the inheritance, can make the way for this idea with basic
> income. It is also solving the problem with 'how to fund the reform' and
> the debate about the one percent.
> Lennart
> On Sep 4, 2017 20:53, "Axil Axil"  wrote:
>
> https://phys.org/news/2017-09-robots-jobs-spurs-bold-idea.html
>
> Fear of robots taking jobs spurs a bold idea: guaranteed pay
>
>
>

RE: [Vo]: f13C or faux13C

[bobcook39...@hotmail.com]

The magnetic resonance states of the fC13 would be easy to test for and should 
say much about the nature of the entity, if it exists.   An unpaired electron 
in a 1p H(0) would certainly have a unique signature IMHO.  The key would be to 
get enough to test.

Bob Cook

From: Bob Higgins
Sent: Monday, September 4, 2017 9:25 AM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: [Vo]: f13C or faux13C

As I understand it, there are two hydrino-like transitions that could occur, 
perhaps on a 12C atom.  Suppose that the 12C is subject to catalytic hydrino 
formation wherein one of its electron enters a (1/p) state.  Such an electron 
would enter an orbital around the nucleus that is smaller than the s orbital 
and would screen one of the protons from the remainder of the electrons.  This 
would cause it chemical and spectral properties to appear as 12B instead of 
12C.  This would be a very unusual find because real 12B decays with a 
half-life of 20ms and should not be seen in the experiment.  Finding a stable 
signature of 12B would be a likely indicator of formation of the hydrino state 
of 12C.
Now consider that a hydrino hydride ion, described by Mills as H-(1/p) could 
enter a hydrogen nucleus and bind so tightly as to become an innermost orbital 
below the s orbital.  A similar thing would happen in that this tightly bound 
negative charge would screen a proton as far as the remainder of the 12C 
electrons are concerned - it would have a mass of 13, but would chemically and 
spectrally appear as 13B, not 13C.  13B has the same uniqueness in discovery as 
the 12B - because real 13B has a half-life of only 17ms and hence should not be 
found in the experiment.  It would only be determined to be 13C accidentally if 
there were no spectra taken - I.E. in a high resolution mass spectrometer test 
only.  This aspect is certainly not out of the question, as 13B would not be 
anticipated to be found because real 13B would quickly decay most of the time 
to 13C anyway.  If they were to test for the x-ray spectra of B, perhaps the 
hydrino hydride of 12C could be detected.

Note, however, that 13C is stable and is about 1% of natural C.  It is not used 
for dating.  Interestingly, the natural variation of 13C is nearly +/-1%.  
Could the hydrino hydride of 12C cause a measurement uncertainty in the 
isotopic ratio of 13C/12C?

I estimate that hydrino states would be as stable in atoms with multiple 
electrons as they are with hydrogen having a single electron.  The reason is 
that the additional electrons of, say a 12C, provide a possible means of 
evanescent coupling to the innermost (hydrino) electron and provides some 
opportunity to transfer energy without photon transfer and relieve the hydrino 
state.
Bob

On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 9:44 AM, JonesBeene 
> wrote:
Here is a detail which came up earlier – the embedded proton concept works best 
in the context of the Mills’ “hydrino hydride” where the proton and two very 
tight electrons combine into a stable ion which replaces carbon’s innermost 
orbital electron. The innermost orbital of carbon would need to have a binding 
strength which is resonant with dense hydrogen in order to do this so Rydberg 
values come into play.

Holmlid, Mills, Miley, Mayer, Meulenberg and others who have written on the 
subject of dense hydrogen have different thinking on the details. They could 
all be partly correct with Mills being the most accurate for this detail (but 
he does not mention 13C).

The innermost carbon electron is bound at slightly less than 490 eV which is 
exactly the 18th Rydberg multiple… yet it is not clear how significant that 
detail is in the context of coal formation.

-

In prior thread, the premise was suggested that there are two different species 
(allotropes) of carbon which are being called carbon-13. One of the two species 
is the normal isotope with 7 neutrons, but the second is carbon-12 with a 
deeply embedded proton of UDH (the ultra-dense hydrogen) of Holmlid.

This result has happened with some types of carbon during the 100 million year 
formation process of decay from ancient vegetation under pressure in coal beds, 
especially anthracite and mineral graphite. This type of coal is often used to 
manufacture the kinds of graphite where physical anomalies have been witnessed.

Here is another piece of evidence which points to a thermal anomaly with carbon 
which could be explained with this hypothesis. (Thanks to Can for the link)

The Replication of an Experiment Which Produced Anomalous Excess 
Energy.pdf
More on those details later…

RE: [Vo]:guaranteed pay

[Lennart Thornros]

I agree with you Chris.
The problem is how to distribute the assets. Assets can't be owned by the
society in general (communism). It is proven useless  Assets can't be
handled by other big entities (banks etc.) as they will act similarly to
communism.
In a healthy society the assets are benefitting most people. We have a
middle class. Over the last 50 years we have concentrated the assets. That
is dangerous as it creates a base for action due to unfair distribution.
That outcome is not beneficial to anyone.
Lennart

On Sep 5, 2017 06:38, "Chris Zell"  wrote:

> http://nypost.com/2015/03/25/us-stock-market-is-just-way-too-riggin-easy/
>
>
>
> This sort of thing is happening all over the world, not just Japan.
> Central banks stimulating their economies by buying up bonds and stocks.
>
>
>
> If you think of these banks as part of their respective governments ( if
> not THE government), then the trend is towards communism by default.  Right
> now, the Fed is talking about downsizing their assets purchased thru
> stimulating the economy – while many experts believe that’s a pipe dream.
> In fact, it may be the only thing preventing collapse.
>
>
>
> In addition, low interest rates and mergers have greatly reduced the
> number of publicly traded companies in the US.  So, another trend that may
> accelerate the default conversion of whole economies towards communism (
> like it or not) as there are fewer stocks to buy up.
>
>
>

RE: [Vo]:guaranteed pay

[Chris Zell]

http://nypost.com/2015/03/25/us-stock-market-is-just-way-too-riggin-easy/

This sort of thing is happening all over the world, not just Japan.  Central 
banks stimulating their economies by buying up bonds and stocks.

If you think of these banks as part of their respective governments ( if not 
THE government), then the trend is towards communism by default.  Right now, 
the Fed is talking about downsizing their assets purchased thru stimulating the 
economy – while many experts believe that’s a pipe dream.  In fact, it may be 
the only thing preventing collapse.

In addition, low interest rates and mergers have greatly reduced the number of 
publicly traded companies in the US.  So, another trend that may accelerate the 
default conversion of whole economies towards communism ( like it or not) as 
there are fewer stocks to buy up.

Re: [Vo]:guaranteed pay

[Lennart Thornros]

I think this is a solution. All the rambling about that jobs disappear to
China, to robots etc. does very little to solve the problem.
I guess the Republican Party believe this is violates their basic
philosophy. In reality it is just right on their philosophy. It takes care
of
the problem we face when being human (i.e. giving healthcare to uninsured)
conflicts the rules, it gives freedom to persuade your personal goals.
I think that it should be combined with limitations in inheritance. There
are few logical reasons for a distribution based on an agriculture
society. I think it is hard to find a good solution to inheritance because
of long time indoctrination. Nothing says that a will or an old law provide
a fair solution. If society provides the basic human rights, then there is
little need to take care of the offspring after you are dead. Thus dead
people's assets could be argued to belong to the community. The problem is
that to let the political entities take over will make the assets
detoriate. See communism, everybody owns it but it is nobody's
responsibility. In my opinion a good solution with today's measurements of
how to handle the inheritance, can make the way for this idea with basic
income. It is also solving the problem with 'how to fund the reform' and
the debate about the one percent.
Lennart
On Sep 4, 2017 20:53, "Axil Axil"  wrote:

https://phys.org/news/2017-09-robots-jobs-spurs-bold-idea.html

Fear of robots taking jobs spurs a bold idea: guaranteed pay