Re: [Vo]:That doggone dogbone
2014-12-09 1:38 GMT+01:00 Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com: Maybe they are trying to repair their errors. and why not with more than correcting the report ?
Re: [Vo]:That doggone dogbone
Just so my answer is not mistaken, let me say that the MFMP replica will be exactly the same size as the Lugano hotCat. It will have convection fins on the outside of the convection tube just like the Lugano hotCat. Ryan Hunt of HUG has made excellent progress in casting the convection surface with a high alumina casting cement. The Lugano hotCat had a small inner alumina reaction tube that contained the LENR reactants. This tube had a 4mm ID and an estimated 6mm OD. If the Lugano analysis was correct, then roughly 910W of heat was being input in a heater coil around this reaction tube, and since a COP of 3.6 was calculated, then (3.6-1)(910) = 2366W was being produced in the small internal core by LENR reaction. The MFMP is trying to replicate the heat production of the assembly by having a core heater coil to model the LENR output and a large heater coil embedded in the convection tube assembly to model the electrical input to the hotCat heater. The small diameter coil that Alan Goldwater is building will go inside the convection (dogbone) assembly that Ryan Hunt is making. The total amount of electrical input needed for this dummy run (sum into the 2 heater coils) will be (910)(3.6)=3.28kW. This is a LOT of power for these small coils. The power per unit area of the wire is a metric used in design of heater coils. Normally Kanthal heaters want to run in the 5-10W/cm^2 range for long life. We may be running in the 20-30W/cm^2 range and at the extreme high temperature limit of Kanthal. It is not going to last very long above 1200C. We hope it will get to 1400C before the coils burn out, but we will be taking data in small steps of temperature until we get there, so even if it burns out, we will have data supporting or negating the Lugano result. The design work MFMP also goes to show that if the Lugano hotCat was actually operating at 1400C for weeks that it must use a refractory heater technology such as moly silicide or SiC (good research by Bob Greenyer). Both of these heater types have large swings in electrical resistance between startup and operating temperature (consistent with Rossi wanting to be part of controlling the input power as it comes up to temperature so as not to burn out the heater). These heater technologies only supply about 1kW in the size of the heater coil portion of the hotCat. So, if the output temperature really was 1400C range, and the Lugano calculations were correct about the heat output being 3.28kW, then the heat could not have been coming all from the heater input - these heater types simply are not capable of producing all of that heat. Because the MFMP test will use all electrical input in the replica to produce the heat, when the infrared response of the replica is matched in the Optris camera between the MFMP test and the Lugano test (regardless of the temperature), then the MFMP replica input heat to get that match IS the total heat being produced by the Lugano hotCat. MFMP will not need to compute the convection and radiation heats because the output heat will be equal to the measured input electrical power (we know we have by definition a COP=1). The test will have thermocouples, so we will see what actual temperature the Lugano Optris reading corresponded to as a secondary data result. On Mon, Dec 8, 2014 at 12:27 AM, Alain Sepeda alain.sep...@gmail.com wrote: Is it really the same size, If I read well the diameter' is much smaller, making much less radiative surface to dissipate heat ?
RE: [Vo]:That doggone dogbone
Bob, I think we are witnessing a rather significant string of linked assumptions that is confused at best, and most likely locally false. He is a counterpoint. 1) We know from this report that the insert shown will already reach the limit of temperature sustainability for Kanthal wire at about 800 watts. To go higher will demand active cooling (above convection). 2) This kind of wire has better thermal characteristics than the Inconel wire which was originally reported to have been used in Lugano. 3) Adding any conceivable layer over the insert which does not cool the wire will only REDUCE the power needed to maintain the maximum sustainable internal temperature 4) The original Levi report was later altered by Rossi when he learned from critics that the Inconel wire being used could not sustain the temperature claim. 5) Rossi essentially “invented” in his own mind a new type of non-existent wire alloy to try to remedy the situation, which now others are trying to remedy for him - with all this talk about refractory wire. Basically this tactic of putting words in Levi’s report, to make details work on paper, but without any evidence of reality other than a hope to see the experiment work, sounds like complete BS to skeptics. 6) Since Goldwater’s insert already shows conclusively that no greater power can be added than he has added in the convection test (without compromising the ability of the wire to carry current), it is essentially not possible to do what is being suggested, in any remote way. IOW Goldater’s experiment has already proved the Levi Lugano report is bogus. From: Bob Higgins Just so my answer is not mistaken, let me say that the MFMP replica will be exactly the same size as the Lugano hotCat. It will have convection fins on the outside of the convection tube just like the Lugano hotCat. Ryan Hunt of HUG has made excellent progress in casting the convection surface with a high alumina casting cement. The Lugano hotCat had a small inner alumina reaction tube that contained the LENR reactants. This tube had a 4mm ID and an estimated 6mm OD. If the Lugano analysis was correct, then roughly 910W of heat was being input in a heater coil around this reaction tube, and since a COP of 3.6 was calculated, then (3.6-1)(910) = 2366W was being produced in the small internal core by LENR reaction. The MFMP is trying to replicate the heat production of the assembly by having a core heater coil to model the LENR output and a large heater coil embedded in the convection tube assembly to model the electrical input to the hotCat heater. The small diameter coil that Alan Goldwater is building will go inside the convection (dogbone) assembly that Ryan Hunt is making. The total amount of electrical input needed for this dummy run (sum into the 2 heater coils) will be (910)(3.6)=3.28kW. This is a LOT of power for these small coils. The power per unit area of the wire is a metric used in design of heater coils. Normally Kanthal heaters want to run in the 5-10W/cm^2 range for long life. We may be running in the 20-30W/cm^2 range and at the extreme high temperature limit of Kanthal. It is not going to last very long above 1200C. We hope it will get to 1400C before the coils burn out, but we will be taking data in small steps of temperature until we get there, so even if it burns out, we will have data supporting or negating the Lugano result. The design work MFMP also goes to show that if the Lugano hotCat was actually operating at 1400C for weeks that it must use a refractory heater technology such as moly silicide or SiC (good research by Bob Greenyer). Both of these heater types have large swings in electrical resistance between startup and operating temperature (consistent with Rossi wanting to be part of controlling the input power as it comes up to temperature so as not to burn out the heater). These heater technologies only supply about 1kW in the size of the heater coil portion of the hotCat. So, if the output temperature really was 1400C range, and the Lugano calculations were correct about the heat output being 3.28kW, then the heat could not have been coming all from the heater input - these heater types simply are not capable of producing all of that heat. Because the MFMP test will use all electrical input in the replica to produce the heat, when the infrared response of the replica is matched in the Optris camera between the MFMP test and the Lugano test (regardless of the temperature), then the MFMP replica input heat to get that match IS the total heat being produced by the Lugano hotCat. MFMP will not need to compute the convection and radiation heats because the output heat will be equal to the measured input electrical power (we know we have by definition a COP=1). The test will have thermocouples, so we will see what actual temperature the Lugano Optris
Re: [Vo]:That doggone dogbone
EM Inductance from a coil activating the hot stuff? On Monday, December 8, 2014, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: Bob, I think we are witnessing a rather significant string of linked assumptions that is confused at best, and most likely locally false. He is a counterpoint. 1) We know from this report that the insert shown will already reach the limit of temperature sustainability for Kanthal wire at about 800 watts. To go higher will demand active cooling (above convection). 2) This kind of wire has better thermal characteristics than the Inconel wire which was originally reported to have been used in Lugano. 3) Adding any conceivable layer over the insert which does not cool the wire will only REDUCE the power needed to maintain the maximum sustainable internal temperature 4) The original Levi report was later altered by Rossi when he learned from critics that the Inconel wire being used could not sustain the temperature claim. 5) Rossi essentially “invented” in his own mind a new type of non-existent wire alloy to try to remedy the situation, which now others are trying to remedy for him - with all this talk about refractory wire. Basically this tactic of putting words in Levi’s report, to make details work on paper, but without any evidence of reality other than a hope to see the experiment work, sounds like complete BS to skeptics. 6) Since Goldwater’s insert already shows conclusively that no greater power can be added than he has added in the convection test (without compromising the ability of the wire to carry current), it is essentially not possible to do what is being suggested, in any remote way. IOW Goldater’s experiment has already proved the Levi Lugano report is bogus. *From:* Bob Higgins Just so my answer is not mistaken, let me say that the MFMP replica will be exactly the same size as the Lugano hotCat. It will have convection fins on the outside of the convection tube just like the Lugano hotCat. Ryan Hunt of HUG has made excellent progress in casting the convection surface with a high alumina casting cement. The Lugano hotCat had a small inner alumina reaction tube that contained the LENR reactants. This tube had a 4mm ID and an estimated 6mm OD. If the Lugano analysis was correct, then roughly 910W of heat was being input in a heater coil around this reaction tube, and since a COP of 3.6 was calculated, then (3.6-1)(910) = 2366W was being produced in the small internal core by LENR reaction. The MFMP is trying to replicate the heat production of the assembly by having a core heater coil to model the LENR output and a large heater coil embedded in the convection tube assembly to model the electrical input to the hotCat heater. The small diameter coil that Alan Goldwater is building will go inside the convection (dogbone) assembly that Ryan Hunt is making. The total amount of electrical input needed for this dummy run (sum into the 2 heater coils) will be (910)(3.6)=3.28kW. This is a LOT of power for these small coils. The power per unit area of the wire is a metric used in design of heater coils. Normally Kanthal heaters want to run in the 5-10W/cm^2 range for long life. We may be running in the 20-30W/cm^2 range and at the extreme high temperature limit of Kanthal. It is not going to last very long above 1200C. We hope it will get to 1400C before the coils burn out, but we will be taking data in small steps of temperature until we get there, so even if it burns out, we will have data supporting or negating the Lugano result. The design work MFMP also goes to show that if the Lugano hotCat was actually operating at 1400C for weeks that it must use a refractory heater technology such as moly silicide or SiC (good research by Bob Greenyer). Both of these heater types have large swings in electrical resistance between startup and operating temperature (consistent with Rossi wanting to be part of controlling the input power as it comes up to temperature so as not to burn out the heater). These heater technologies only supply about 1kW in the size of the heater coil portion of the hotCat. So, if the output temperature really was 1400C range, and the Lugano calculations were correct about the heat output being 3.28kW, then the heat could not have been coming all from the heater input - these heater types simply are not capable of producing all of that heat. Because the MFMP test will use all electrical input in the replica to produce the heat, when the infrared response of the replica is matched in the Optris camera between the MFMP test and the Lugano test (regardless of the temperature), then the MFMP replica input heat to get that match IS the total heat being produced by the Lugano hotCat. MFMP will not need to compute the convection and radiation heats because the output heat will be equal to the measured input electrical power (we
Re: [Vo]:That doggone dogbone
Jones, I think you are wrong about most of these points. The proof will be in the experiment when it is conducted. 1) We know from this report that the insert shown will already reach the limit of temperature sustainability for Kanthal wire at about 800 watts. To go higher will demand active cooling (above convection). This is probably almost true for the inner heater coil, which will model to some extent the LENR produced heat in the reactor core tube. We will probably be able to add only up to 1kW in this coil. It is supplementary to the main heater coil which will be around this one. We believe the main Kanthal coil can supply 2.4kW. The total electrical heater input for the experiment can get to the 3.4kW range. 2) This kind of wire has better thermal characteristics than the Inconel wire which was originally reported to have been used in Lugano. The heater wire used in the Lugano hotCat is only of side interest. It is not important to the experiment. If Rossi used a moly silicide or SiC heater, it would have needed leads that could well have been inconel. It is unimportant to the result of the experiment. 3) Adding any conceivable layer over the insert which does not cool the wire will only REDUCE the power needed to maintain the maximum sustainable internal temperature The internal temperature is important only insuring that the internal heater doesn't burn out. When the convection tube is added, it is not clear if the conduction will exceed the convection of this small tube. We will add about 1kW max to the internal coil and it gets us closer to the claimed total internal power of the Lugano hotCat (LENR + electrical input). 4) The original Levi report was later altered by Rossi when he learned from critics that the Inconel wire being used could not sustain the temperature claim. Again, entirely immaterial to the result of the Lugano test or to our experiment to confirm. 5) Rossi essentially “invented” in his own mind a new type of non-existent wire alloy to try to remedy the situation, which now others are trying to remedy for him - with all this talk about refractory wire. Basically this tactic of putting words in Levi’s report, to make details work on paper, but without any evidence of reality other than a hope to see the experiment work, sounds like complete BS to skeptics. Again, entirely immaterial to the result of the Lugano test or to our experiment to confirm. 6) Since Goldwater’s insert already shows conclusively that no greater power can be added than he has added in the convection test (without compromising the ability of the wire to carry current), it is essentially not possible to do what is being suggested, in any remote way. IOW Goldater’s experiment has already proved the Levi Lugano report is bogus. If what you were saying is true, it would be proving that if the calculated output power from the Lugano experiment was correct that there must be LENR heat contribution because it would not have been possible for such a heater to produce all of that heat by electrical input, despite the fact that the electrical input was measured to be much less. However, the statement is wrong. The total heat that the MFMP replica will be capable of accepting from an electrical input standpoint will be in the range of 3.2-3.6kW as the sum of the powers delivered to the two Kanthal heater coils. The heater may not last very long with such high input, but it doesn't have to. We will collect substantial data as the temperature rises and until the heaters fail. The other stuff (hotCat heater type) is interesting, but completely irrelevant to the Lugano test results or to our replica dummy test. Bob Higgins
Re: [Vo]:That doggone dogbone
Bob-- The MFMP test as you describe seems to me to be well thought out, and your evaluation of the Lugano test probably correct. I also think Jones is jumping to conclusions. We will see with the results of the MFMP testing. I hope your estimates about the lifetime of the electrical wires at 1400 degrees C is borne out. That's pretty hot for any metallic wire subject to oxidation in my experience. As an additional design feature, you may want to keep the oxygen low with a nitrogen or inert gas blanket to extend the wire lifetime. Bob Cook - Original Message - From: Bob Higgins To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Monday, December 08, 2014 9:21 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:That doggone dogbone Jones, I think you are wrong about most of these points. The proof will be in the experiment when it is conducted. 1) We know from this report that the insert shown will already reach the limit of temperature sustainability for Kanthal wire at about 800 watts. To go higher will demand active cooling (above convection). This is probably almost true for the inner heater coil, which will model to some extent the LENR produced heat in the reactor core tube. We will probably be able to add only up to 1kW in this coil. It is supplementary to the main heater coil which will be around this one. We believe the main Kanthal coil can supply 2.4kW. The total electrical heater input for the experiment can get to the 3.4kW range. 2) This kind of wire has better thermal characteristics than the Inconel wire which was originally reported to have been used in Lugano. The heater wire used in the Lugano hotCat is only of side interest. It is not important to the experiment. If Rossi used a moly silicide or SiC heater, it would have needed leads that could well have been inconel. It is unimportant to the result of the experiment. 3) Adding any conceivable layer over the insert which does not cool the wire will only REDUCE the power needed to maintain the maximum sustainable internal temperature The internal temperature is important only insuring that the internal heater doesn't burn out. When the convection tube is added, it is not clear if the conduction will exceed the convection of this small tube. We will add about 1kW max to the internal coil and it gets us closer to the claimed total internal power of the Lugano hotCat (LENR + electrical input). 4) The original Levi report was later altered by Rossi when he learned from critics that the Inconel wire being used could not sustain the temperature claim. Again, entirely immaterial to the result of the Lugano test or to our experiment to confirm. 5) Rossi essentially “invented” in his own mind a new type of non-existent wire alloy to try to remedy the situation, which now others are trying to remedy for him - with all this talk about refractory wire. Basically this tactic of putting words in Levi’s report, to make details work on paper, but without any evidence of reality other than a hope to see the experiment work, sounds like complete BS to skeptics. Again, entirely immaterial to the result of the Lugano test or to our experiment to confirm. 6) Since Goldwater’s insert already shows conclusively that no greater power can be added than he has added in the convection test (without compromising the ability of the wire to carry current), it is essentially not possible to do what is being suggested, in any remote way. IOW Goldater’s experiment has already proved the Levi Lugano report is bogus. If what you were saying is true, it would be proving that if the calculated output power from the Lugano experiment was correct that there must be LENR heat contribution because it would not have been possible for such a heater to produce all of that heat by electrical input, despite the fact that the electrical input was measured to be much less. However, the statement is wrong. The total heat that the MFMP replica will be capable of accepting from an electrical input standpoint will be in the range of 3.2-3.6kW as the sum of the powers delivered to the two Kanthal heater coils. The heater may not last very long with such high input, but it doesn't have to. We will collect substantial data as the temperature rises and until the heaters fail. The other stuff (hotCat heater type) is interesting, but completely irrelevant to the Lugano test results or to our replica dummy test. Bob Higgins
Re: [Vo]:That doggone dogbone
The main heater coil will be completely encased in alumina to keep away the air (O2). It looks like we will insert the inner coil inside the alumina heater tube and then will use alumina cement to close off the ends from air, so the only air that it is exposed to is that which is in the volume trapped inside - not a continuous fresh supply. Alan has tested this coil in free air as well, but not to destruction. We hope to get solid tests at 1200C and after all of the data is captured, try to increase to 1400C taking data along the way, knowing it could burn out at any moment. All we need is one good test set. If we have to, we can always build another. On Mon, Dec 8, 2014 at 11:11 AM, Bob Cook frobertc...@hotmail.com wrote: Bob-- The MFMP test as you describe seems to me to be well thought out, and your evaluation of the Lugano test probably correct. I also think Jones is jumping to conclusions. We will see with the results of the MFMP testing. I hope your estimates about the lifetime of the electrical wires at 1400 degrees C is borne out. That's pretty hot for any metallic wire subject to oxidation in my experience. As an additional design feature, you may want to keep the oxygen low with a nitrogen or inert gas blanket to extend the wire lifetime. Bob Cook
RE: [Vo]:That doggone dogbone
From: Bob Higgins * We will probably be able to add only up to 1kW in this coil. It is supplementary to the main heater coil which will be around this one. We believe the main Kanthal coil can supply 2.4kW. The total electrical heater input for the experiment can get to the 3.4kW range. Bob, if the inner coil - of a double coil set is raised to 1300 0C by the addition of 750 watts, then you have a major problem for the above scenario unless this design turns out to be a much better thermal conductor than can be expected from its nominal composition. This looks to me like this is not going to turn out as planned, but it is encouraging to see that it is being undertaken at all, and ***thank you*** and others for your efforts to understand the thermodynamics of the dog-bone. Since the outer coil - before any power is applied to it – will feel 1100-1200 0C heat from the insert, we have a high incremental starting point for additional power, which seems not to have been adequately considered . Thus, it may be a mistake to imagine that one can add an additional 2.4 kW to the outer coil and not fry the internal coil. Alumina has relatively high thermal conductivity – at least for a ceramic, but too much has been made of this property in the big picture… since it is still a ceramic and is 700% lower than say SiC – the previously used ceramic - which would have been a better choice if heat transfer was the main consideration. IMHO Rossi may have chosen alumina instead of SiC or even nixed the application of a black SiC coating, simply because he does NOT want a blackbody radiator under these circumstances, and an alumina emitter will affect the IR camera differently than SiC. That conclusion is based on Rossi having switched to alumina from SiC in an earlier version. The good news is this - if MFMP were to use the same IR camera setup and the same calculations, then they may see the same apparent gain with the alumina - using only one kW input, even though it is a “dummy”. That will be most interesting. Jones
Re: [Vo]:That doggone dogbone
Right. If we use an identically calibrated Optris camera as the Lugano team used and duplicate their infrared measured image using much less input power than was claimed as output, the MFMP dummy test will have provided negative confirmation of the Lugano results. HOWEVER ... I just received early information of a dogbone main heater coil test by Ryan Hunt (Hunt Utilities Group, MFMP). The test showed an external temp (thermocouple measured) of 900C with 1107 watts electrical input. Note that the internal temperature was 1196C (this is only important for heater lifetime issues, not the experimental result). This data says that it will take a lot more heat (than 1107W) to get the dogbone to 1200C or 1400C external temperature. The 900C was after 15 minutes. Maybe it would have stabilized a little hotter after a longer time. Compare the 1107 watts to get to 900C in the Ryan's dogbone to the Lugano test report. With an input of 910 watts in the Lugano experiment, the authors claimed a temperature over 1400C. So, if the Lugano reactor was actually above ~850C, Ryan's first dummy replica data suggests that excess heat must have been involved in the Lugano experiment. If the power lost from the device (convection, radiation) goes as the ~4th power of the temperatures in Kelvin, it would take 4.1 times more power for the MFMP replica to go to 1400C, which is about 4500 watts. Obviously this napkin calculation is crude and doesn't take into account those portions of the replica not at 900C or the leads, etc, but it puts the power for 1400C in the same ballpark as the Lugano calculated output of 3300 watts. Another observation is the the internal temperature in the MFMP replica is substantially higher than the outside temperature. This difference may decline with higher temperature, and the difference between inside and outside may have been less for the Lugano reactor because its heater coil appeared thicker and there would have been less alumina for the heat to go through to get to the convection surface. This is not a problem for the accuracy of the test, but may limit just how hot the MFMP test can be run before failure of its internal heater coils. Another interesting prospect is that the LENR heat from the small reaction core could have been better distributed throughout the hotCat mass if the heat was transported by low energy photons (soft x-ray), which would not have been absorbed immediately at the source. This would have allowed the core to remain cooler than the resistively heated experiment now in progress at MFMP. Bob Higgins On Mon, Dec 8, 2014 at 12:08 PM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: *From:* Bob Higgins Ø We will probably be able to add only up to 1kW in this coil. It is supplementary to the main heater coil which will be around this one. We believe the main Kanthal coil can supply 2.4kW. The total electrical heater input for the experiment can get to the 3.4kW range. Bob, if the inner coil - of a double coil set is raised to 1300 0C by the addition of 750 watts, then you have a major problem for the above scenario unless this design turns out to be a much better thermal conductor than can be expected from its nominal composition. This looks to me like this is not going to turn out as planned, but it is encouraging to see that it is being undertaken at all, and ***thank you*** and others for your efforts to understand the thermodynamics of the dog-bone. Since the outer coil - before any power is applied to it – will feel 1100- 1200 0C heat from the insert, we have a high incremental starting point for additional power, which seems not to have been adequately considered . Thus, it may be a mistake to imagine that one can add an additional 2.4 kW to the outer coil and not fry the internal coil. Alumina has relatively high thermal conductivity – at least for a ceramic, but too much has been made of this property in the big picture… since it is still a ceramic and is 7 00% lower than say SiC – the previously used ceramic - which would have been a better choice if heat transfer was the main consideration. IMHO Rossi may have chosen alumina instead of SiC or even nixed the application of a black SiC coating, simply because he does NOT want a blackbody radiator under these circumstances, and an alumina emitter will affect the IR camera differently than SiC. That conclusion is based on Rossi having switched to alumina from SiC in an earlier version. The good news is this - if MFMP were to use the same IR camera setup and the same calculations, then they may see the same apparent gain with the alumina - using only one kW input, even though it is a “dummy”. That will be most interesting. Jones
Re: [Vo]:That doggone dogbone
On Mon, Dec 8, 2014 at 2:50 PM, Bob Higgins rj.bob.higg...@gmail.com wrote: Another interesting prospect is that the LENR heat from the small reaction core could have been better distributed throughout the hotCat mass if the heat was transported by low energy photons (soft x-ray), which would not have been absorbed immediately at the source. This would have allowed the core to remain cooler than the resistively heated experiment now in progress at MFMP. Exactly, if the MFMP replication can show energy transport via EMF at some future stage, this observation would go a long way in zooming in on the proper theory behind the Rossi reaction. Even a failure to get to 1400C using external electric input might be a indicator of the special heat production characteristics involved in LENR. In some future dogbone test, the thermal distribution of heat inside the dogbone may be found to be nearly isothermal. If such a distribution can be proven, then the evidence for Bose Einstein condensation at high temperatures would be indicative.
RE: [Vo]:That doggone dogbone
From: Bob Higgins * Right. If we use an identically calibrated Optris camera as the Lugano team used and duplicate their infrared measured image using much less input power than was claimed as output, the MFMP dummy test will have provided negative confirmation of the Lugano results. * HOWEVER ... I just received early information of a dogbone main heater coil test by Ryan Hunt (Hunt Utilities Group, MFMP). The test showed an external temp (thermocouple measured) of 900C with 1107 watts electrical input…. This data says that it will take a lot more heat (than 1107W) to get the dogbone to 1200C or 1400C external temperature. The 900C was after 15 minutes. Maybe it would have stabilized a little hotter after a longer time. Or… perhaps the dog-bone was just short of a threshold. One provocative “unknown” here, from the perspective of SPP (being an operative mechanism) is the threshold IR level for formation of plasmon polaritons. The contact interface between Kanthal and ceramic can be a zone where SPP would be expected to form - and a threshold of IR photons could be necessary. This assumes that SPP can produce some kind of gain based on interaction with a “hidden” reactant which is present, even in a “dummy” reactor. This could include air, since the water vapor in air will supply a small level of hydrogen to a hot reactor. Both the dog-bone and the insert were exposed to air but the insert seems to have gotten hotter with less input. This could be related to geometry and exposure to air. May I suggest that they test and compare the insert - in humid vs. dry conditions? In short, even if this possibility is remote - there does seem to be a minimum level in reported results above 1000C for SPP formation, so it is possible that the insert achieved that threshold level but the dog-bone has not gotten there yet. But there is no authoritative study on the minimum level for SPP, and there is no evidence of gain due to SPP in air, but neither can they be ruled out. The Lugano reactor would have been exposed to orders of magnitude more hydrogen from water vapor in air than from the paltry amount of hydride which was supplied in the initial fill. In the event that further testing reveals a non-linearity in the slope of the heating curve, indicative of a threshold - then this issue of SPP could become more important. It does look like MFMP are progressing rapidly, so many questions could be answered shortly.
Re: [Vo]:That doggone dogbone
The method of catalytic action in the Rossi reactor may be opposite to what Rossi has stated. The catalytic environment could be created by the nickel micro-particles rather than the secret sauce. The secret sauce could be the fuel of the reaction such that the nickel particles remain relativity unaffected by the reaction. Consider what happens during various LENR meltdown scenarios that we know about. In the Rossi reactor meltdown, the alumina burns at such a high temperature that the rubies are formed at temperatures beyond the vaporization temperature of nickel. In the Pons Fleischmann ‘Explosion’ a crater was formed in the concrete floor of the PF lab. This points to the high temperature formation at a level sufficient to vaporize sand and steel rebar. A visitor to DGT related a story of how a piece of quartz glass inserted in the DGT reaction chamber glowed blindingly white before it completely vaporized. These out of control excursions of the reaction points to the formation of an environment in which any element or combination of elements can carry the reaction when a LENR enabling catalytic environment is setup by the nickel micro-powder. I speculate that that environment involves the establishment of a Bose Einstein condensation at very high temperatures in which any element will feed the reaction at the vaporization temperature of that element(s). On Mon, Dec 8, 2014 at 4:11 PM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: *From:* Bob Higgins Ø Right. If we use an identically calibrated Optris camera as the Lugano team used and duplicate their infrared measured image using much less input power than was claimed as output, the MFMP dummy test will have provided negative confirmation of the Lugano results. Ø HOWEVER ... I just received early information of a dogbone main heater coil test by Ryan Hunt (Hunt Utilities Group, MFMP). The test showed an external temp (thermocouple measured) of 900C with 1107 watts electrical input…. This data says that it will take a lot more heat (than 1107W) to get the dogbone to 1200C or 1400C external temperature. The 900C was after 15 minutes. Maybe it would have stabilized a little hotter after a longer time. Or… perhaps the dog-bone was just short of a threshold. One provocative “ unknown” here, from the perspective of SPP (being an operative mechanism) is the threshold IR level for formation of plasmon polaritons. The contact interface between Kanthal and ceramic can be a zone where SPP would be expected to form - and a threshold of IR photons could be necessary. This assumes that SPP can produce some kind of gain based on interaction with a “hidden” reactant which is present, even in a “dummy” reactor. This could include air, since the water vapor in air will supply a small level of hydrogen to a hot reactor. Both the dog-bone and the insert were exposed to air but the insert seems to have gotten hotter with less input. This could be related to geometry and exposure to air. May I suggest that they test and compare the insert - in humid vs. dry conditions? In short, even if this possibility is remote - there does seem to be a minimum level in reported results above 1000C for SPP formation, so it is possible that the insert achieved that threshold level but the dog-bone has not gotten there yet. But there is no authoritative study on the minimum level for SPP, and there is no evidence of gain due to SPP in air, but neither can they be ruled out. The Lugano reactor would have been exposed to orders of magnitude more hydrogen from water vapor in air than from the paltry amount of hydride which was supplied in the initial fill. In the event that further testing reveals a non-linearity in the slope of the heating curve, indicative of a threshold - then this issue of SPP could become more important. It does look like MFMP are progressing rapidly, so many questions could be answered shortly.
Re: [Vo]:That doggone dogbone
Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: Levi for sure is dummy # 1 for allowing Rossi to take complete control over a so-called “independent” experiment. Why do you say this was complete control? Rossi and all of the people who did the experiment say that he had no control. He did not select the instruments or the protocol, and he was not present during the 32 days of the run. If there were mistakes, I think Levi et al. made them. I do not think we can blame Rossi, and I do not see how he might have masterminded the experiment. Levi may have been the principal researcher but the others are also responsible. They had a say in how the experiment was done. I agree with McKubre that they did a poor job, and I also agree with him that they are not all dummies. Hanno seems smart: http://www.infinite-energy.com/iemagazine/issue119/norway.html Smart people often make mistakes. Such mistakes are not an indication that Rossi is magically influencing events in Switzerland from the U.S. - Jed
[Vo]:That doggone dogbone
Oops The MFMP has built a Rossi replica called the dog-bone it is the same size and weight as the Lugano original Even before adding nickel or hydrogen, the MFMP reactor was initially testing to 1300 degrees with 732 watts input. Yet Rossi was claiming in his tests, and Levi wrote it up this way: Upon completion of the gradual startup process procedure, the thermal camera indicated an average temperature for the body of the reactor of 1260°C, while the PCE recorded an electric power input to the E-Cat fluctuating at around 810 W. And did Rossi/Levi not then claim that this was a large COP based on those calculations of IR emission ? yet it appears that MFMP was able to achieve higher thermal temperature, using less input, and with more accurate measurement from a thermocouple instead of a thermal camera - but guess what? Their reactor has no fuel nor catalyst ! Now we have to ask, whos the real dummy in this doggone soap opera? Levi for sure is dummy # 1 for allowing Rossi to take complete control over a so-called independent experiment.
Re: [Vo]:That doggone dogbone
Jones, I don't know where you have gotten this data, but I am working with MFMP on this and have not seen any such data. There are 2 heaters being developed. One will model the coil that was used to heat the internal reactants - this is what the Lugano team applied electrical power to to heat the hotCat. The second coil will go in the middle to model the extra heat provided by Rossi's secret reactants. We are concerned that we will NOT be able to put in enough heat into these TWO coils together to get the dogbone convection tube to 1400C. We are planning to be able to put in about 2.4kW into the outer coil, and may be able to put in another 1kW in the inner coil. The plan is to try to put in enough electrical heat into these 2 coils such that the same view comes out of the same model of Optris camera (calibrated the same way as the factory) as what the Lugano team saw. Then the total electrical input that generates this matched thermal image will be the heat from the hotCat as a sum of the electrical hotCat input and the LENR output. We will also measure the temperature with type-B thermocouples, but this is just a check on the Lugano math. The real measure is how much electrical power must go into the dogbone replica to match the Optris view that the Lugano team got. Right now, the concern is that we may not be able to input that much electrical power to match the Lugano view. We will see in January when the team gets access to an Optris camera. For now, in testing the outer coils of the dogbone, the temperature has been taken nowhere near 1300C. Alan Goldwater has constructed and tested a coil on a small alumina tube coil form that will be used to model the LENR contribution to the heat. It will be placed inside the dogbone. Alan has been testing this and measuring the temperature on the inside of the small alumina tube, not convected on the outside. Please stay tuned for the real results. Any posts before the real test in January are bound to be bogus. On Sun, Dec 7, 2014 at 6:50 PM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: Oops The MFMP has built a Rossi replica called the “dog-bone”… it is the same size and weight as the Lugano original Even before adding nickel or hydrogen, the MFMP reactor was initially testing to 1300 degrees with 732 watts input. Yet… Rossi was claiming in his tests, and Levi wrote it up this way: “Upon completion of the gradual startup process procedure, the thermal camera indicated an average temperature for the body of the reactor of 1260°C, while the PCE recorded an electric power input to the E-Cat fluctuating at around 810 W. And did Rossi/Levi not then claim that this was a large COP based on those “calculations” of IR emission ? … yet it appears that MFMP was able to achieve higher thermal temperature, using less input, and with more accurate measurement from a thermocouple instead of a thermal camera - but guess what? Their reactor has no fuel nor catalyst ! Now we have to ask, who’s the real dummy in this doggone soap opera? Levi for sure is dummy # 1 for allowing Rossi to take complete control over a so-called “independent” experiment.
RE: [Vo]:That doggone dogbone
From: Bob Higgins I don't know where you have gotten this data, but I am working with MFMP on this and have not seen any such data http://www.e-catworld.com/2014/12/07/mfmps-project-dog-bone-thread-update-1-first-test-on-dummy-core/comment-page-2/#comments read the 3 paragraphs below the picture.
Re: [Vo]:That doggone dogbone
You MFMP guys have started posting photos. But please do the following: 1. Get a color calibration card, eg Kodak Color Separation Guide and Gray Scale (Q-13, 8 Long) http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=sku=26662gclid=CjwKEAiAkpCkBRCtstKQo5ia5nESJACsCikR0WtiGGjptERAk_sJ4mJxnfK3nRKGKJyBPBw76JmgVxoCz6rw_wcBQ=is=REGA=details Include the card in every photo. 2. Make sure you use a camera with manual control, and use the same camera for every photo. Turn off Auto White Balance (AWB) and auto ISO. 3 Optional : also get a grayscale card --- and ONE TIME ONLY set the camera to get the white balance off the card. Otherwise, just pick a suitable value. Note the AWB value (color temperature). 4. Take every photo at the same AWB and preferably ISO. Make sure that no channels are over-exposed. - Original Message - From: Bob Higgins rj.bob.higg...@gmail.com Sent: Sunday, December 7, 2014 6:40:57 PM
Re: [Vo]:That doggone dogbone
Aren't you compare the body average to the core?The body average means that it's sustaining 1260 over the entire body. Doesn't that mean it's outputting more energy than one core reading? On Sun, Dec 7, 2014 at 5:50 PM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: Oops The MFMP has built a Rossi replica called the “dog-bone”… it is the same size and weight as the Lugano original Even before adding nickel or hydrogen, the MFMP reactor was initially testing to 1300 degrees with 732 watts input. Yet… Rossi was claiming in his tests, and Levi wrote it up this way: “Upon completion of the gradual startup process procedure, the thermal camera indicated an average temperature for the body of the reactor of 1260°C, while the PCE recorded an electric power input to the E-Cat fluctuating at around 810 W. And did Rossi/Levi not then claim that this was a large COP based on those “calculations” of IR emission ? … yet it appears that MFMP was able to achieve higher thermal temperature, using less input, and with more accurate measurement from a thermocouple instead of a thermal camera - but guess what? Their reactor has no fuel nor catalyst ! Now we have to ask, who’s the real dummy in this doggone soap opera? Levi for sure is dummy # 1 for allowing Rossi to take complete control over a so-called “independent” experiment.
RE: [Vo]:That doggone dogbone
From: Blaze Spinnaker Aren't you compare the body average to the core?The body average means that it's sustaining 1260 over the entire body. Doesn't that mean it's outputting more energy than one core reading? That depends on heat transfer characteristics of the two - it could be more or it could be less, but the point is that there is a similarity and near identity in the two systems that should be alarming to those who think Rossi was showing COP 3. If the report is accurate (and apparently Bob thinks it is not), then the preliminary implication is that either Rossi’s version is not gainful or the dummy reactor is gainful.
Re: [Vo]:That doggone dogbone
As I said, Alan Goldwater's work is on the small diameter coil that will go into the dogbone in place of the LENR reactor core. Temperature measurements made on it by itself, were made with a type-k thermocouple placed inside the tiny alumina tube (4mm OD) used as a coil form for the kanthal heater wire on the outside (6 mm OD coil). When the kanthal wound tube was coated with a ceramic cement, there was insulation and not as much convection and this coil got to the 1300C range inside the center of the alumina tube. This is NOT the dogbone shaped convection tube. I know the text is confusing, having Alan's work described just below the dogbone picture. The dogbone shaped convection tube has NOT been heated to that temperature. You also have my opinion wrong. As I said, I am concerned that even putting in a total of 3kW electric in our dogbone test, we may not get to the same temperature as in the Lugano report. The electrical input in the Lugano report was a little above 900W as I recall, and I don't believe it is possible to get the dogbone to 1400C on the OUTSIDE with 900W input based on our measurements. Also, the type of heater element we now believe was used in the Lugano hotCat was not capable of delivering over about 1kW of input heat. So if the hotCat was really putting out over 2.5kW of heat to get it to 1400C, then there was definitely substantial gain. We will know in January. Bob Higgins On Sun, Dec 7, 2014 at 8:59 PM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: *From:* Blaze Spinnaker Aren't you compare the body average to the core?The body average means that it's sustaining 1260 over the entire body. Doesn't that mean it's outputting more energy than one core reading? That depends on heat transfer characteristics of the two - it could be more or it could be less, but the point is that there is a similarity and near identity in the two systems that should be alarming to those who think Rossi was showing COP 3. If the report is accurate (and apparently Bob thinks it is not), then the preliminary implication is that either Rossi’s version is not gainful or the dummy reactor is gainful.
Re: [Vo]:That doggone dogbone
Thanks Bob! Everyone's is very excited about this On Sun, Dec 7, 2014 at 8:58 PM, Bob Higgins rj.bob.higg...@gmail.com wrote: As I said, Alan Goldwater's work is on the small diameter coil that will go into the dogbone in place of the LENR reactor core. Temperature measurements made on it by itself, were made with a type-k thermocouple placed inside the tiny alumina tube (4mm OD) used as a coil form for the kanthal heater wire on the outside (6 mm OD coil). When the kanthal wound tube was coated with a ceramic cement, there was insulation and not as much convection and this coil got to the 1300C range inside the center of the alumina tube. This is NOT the dogbone shaped convection tube. I know the text is confusing, having Alan's work described just below the dogbone picture. The dogbone shaped convection tube has NOT been heated to that temperature. You also have my opinion wrong. As I said, I am concerned that even putting in a total of 3kW electric in our dogbone test, we may not get to the same temperature as in the Lugano report. The electrical input in the Lugano report was a little above 900W as I recall, and I don't believe it is possible to get the dogbone to 1400C on the OUTSIDE with 900W input based on our measurements. Also, the type of heater element we now believe was used in the Lugano hotCat was not capable of delivering over about 1kW of input heat. So if the hotCat was really putting out over 2.5kW of heat to get it to 1400C, then there was definitely substantial gain. We will know in January. Bob Higgins On Sun, Dec 7, 2014 at 8:59 PM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: *From:* Blaze Spinnaker Aren't you compare the body average to the core?The body average means that it's sustaining 1260 over the entire body. Doesn't that mean it's outputting more energy than one core reading? That depends on heat transfer characteristics of the two - it could be more or it could be less, but the point is that there is a similarity and near identity in the two systems that should be alarming to those who think Rossi was showing COP 3. If the report is accurate (and apparently Bob thinks it is not), then the preliminary implication is that either Rossi’s version is not gainful or the dummy reactor is gainful.
Re: [Vo]:That doggone dogbone
Is it really the same size, If I read well the diameter' is much smaller, making much less radiative surface to dissipate heat ? 2014-12-08 2:50 GMT+01:00 Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net: Oops The MFMP has built a Rossi replica called the “dog-bone”… it is the same size and weight as the Lugano original Even before adding nickel or hydrogen, the MFMP reactor was initially testing to 1300 degrees with 732 watts input. Yet… Rossi was claiming in his tests, and Levi wrote it up this way: “Upon completion of the gradual startup process procedure, the thermal camera indicated an average temperature for the body of the reactor of 1260°C, while the PCE recorded an electric power input to the E-Cat fluctuating at around 810 W. And did Rossi/Levi not then claim that this was a large COP based on those “calculations” of IR emission ? … yet it appears that MFMP was able to achieve higher thermal temperature, using less input, and with more accurate measurement from a thermocouple instead of a thermal camera - but guess what? Their reactor has no fuel nor catalyst ! Now we have to ask, who’s the real dummy in this doggone soap opera? Levi for sure is dummy # 1 for allowing Rossi to take complete control over a so-called “independent” experiment.
