SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: {WP} Bush Treaties....

2001-12-15 Thread Claes Persson




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In a message dated 12/14/01 9:52:49 AM 
  Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  OK! We both know that both the alternatives can not work alone. 
The result of a totally free Capitalism as well as a totally free Socialism 
both ends in caos by themselves. I beleive in a reasonable balance between 
the two. I'm for both.Claes§( :8-)
  I don't know. People 
  having the nature to not do things for themselves if someone will do it for 
  them, I think it would always be more and more socialism. What do you think? 
  janice
  ___
  
  It's in fact the other 
  way around. I understand the the american media is not following the European 
  politics, but:
  
  No communism exist any 
  more.
  
  Social Demcrates (not 
  socialists, that is a name only used by the right wing that don't like to 
  remeber that we are all democrats) has succeded yo level out any thing about 
  socializing. As you know it's the opposite. State companies are sold to the 
  market here.
  
  The former communists has 
  adopted that the eastern communism was a dead end (that all the rest of us 
  allready knew).
  
  Why are you afraid that 
  no one will work? Do you think that to be a valid worry? I think it's a myth 
  that keeps the rightwingers in the flock, and nothing else.
  
  Once, about 100 years ago 
  or more, we had also a globalized world much like to day, however the 
  communications were much slower. There were very few partys to contradict the 
  right wing and the capitalism was runling alone. We all know what happened. 
  Wars and communism as many people got into trouble as there was no economic 
  safetynet in those days. Nothing is new under the sun.
  
  The same complaining 
  about the bums and the lazy was going on. It was their own fault that they had 
  no work. It was their own fault that there showed up 100 applicants for every 
  work. It does not take much thinking to understand that there was some logic 
  here that didn't fit. It was not the workers fault that the companies went 
  bust and they, themselves ended up on the street with wife and children. For 
  some reason that never happend to the capitalists.
  
  The workers unions 
  started an organisation that could provide a small sum for some limited time. 
  The idea spread and the state took up the idea and formed unemployment 
  organisations run by the unions.
  
  But we also know that 
  this was done under a hard resistance from the rightwing parties. The reasons 
  given by them were the same that you use to day. The history shows that those 
  reasons were invalid. In some countrys in Europe they were slower to recognize 
  that all people has their rights.War and communism 
  came out of that.
  
  What if the idea 
  ofthe welfare state had been much more wellcome? Maybe the 20:th century 
  had been a much more pieceful one instead becoming the most warfilled in 
  history.
  
  Claes
  §( :8-)
  
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SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: {WP} Bush Treaties....

2001-12-14 Thread Claes Persson




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In a message dated 12/13/01 10:38:46 AM 
  Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  First: all people are not strong anyway.Second: All that is 
conservatine crap in order to save taxes. Get back to the real life where 
there are all sorts of people.Third: I still think that no one should decide any ones 
faith, or expected time of life, witch is what you try to do by denying them 
help. Can we give help to the "weak" people in other parts of the world we 
must also do something for our own weak.Claes
  I am not deciding 
  ANYONES faith or length of life. Tell me, do you think anyone should be 
  responsible for what they do and how they live. If I understand you correctly, 
  I can drink and take drugs and not pay my bills or clean my house and you 
  would pay someone to take care of me because I am weak? Is that what you are 
  saying? I just want to be sure that I understand. janice
  
  
  You are part of those 
  that argue for diminishing the social expences, right? If the arguing gets 
  some effect you are part in the process. The consequenses of this is 
  also your responsibility
  
  You are, of course, not 
  responsible for how those people have been living, but how those people should 
  have been living in order to save taxes is academic. The situations is what it 
  is now. What to do about it now. Nothing? Why are you takeing those kind og 
  arguments like it's only you that is going to pay for it?
  
  Why is this arguing only 
  about social costs? Taxes are used to pay for a lot of other tings that the 
  state and the communitiesare responsible to pay for and that need a lot 
  bigger sums from the taxpayer and that you may not agree with either. Do you 
  want to get all this reduced too? What will be left of the good society if all 
  those things that is the buildingstones of a good society if they, as you 
  wish, are reduced to a minimum and thereby works a lot worse? As someone else 
  asked: Are we going back to the time of Dickens?
  
  Claes
  §( :8-)
  

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SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: {WP} Bush Treaties....

2001-12-14 Thread Claes Persson




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In a message dated 12/13/01 11:49:43 AM 
  Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  
Capitalism is an important tool for development, trade and 
  spread of wealth, but it can not be allowed to run heywild. Then the bad 
  outways the good.Claes§( :8-)You make some very valid points. But it is far 
better that the alternative No? janice___Sorry, Janice, 
but I don't get the question:)
  I was asking if you 
  didn't think that Capitalism was better than Socialism? janice
  _
  
  OK! We both know that both the alternatives can not work 
  alone.The result of a totally free Capitalism as well as a totally free 
  Socialism bothends in caos by themselves. I beleive in a reasonable 
  balance between the two. I'm for both.
  
  Claes
  §( :8-)
  

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Re: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: {WP} Bush Treaties....

2001-12-14 Thread JaniceSturgill


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In a message dated 12/14/01 9:51:37 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


Why is this arguing only about social costs? Taxes are used to pay for a lot of other tings that the state and the communities are responsible to pay for and that need a lot bigger sums from the taxpayer and that you may not agree with either. Do you want to get all this reduced too? What will be left of the good society if all those things that is the buildingstones of a good society if they, as you wish, are reduced to a minimum and thereby works a lot worse? As someone else asked: Are we going back to the time of Dickens?
 
Claes
§( :8-)


I have no problem paying taxes for all those things. I think there should be help for anyone who is truly sick or injured from an illness or an accident. I give money to charities also. I give any things I no longer need to charities. I help children with no parents or with bad parents learn to read on the weekends. I help out at the Veterans home here reading to the men and writing letters for them and some sewing, but I am not to good at that. But I refuse to sit quietly by while my government encourages people to be lazy and take drugs. There is a whole industry building up around this problem. And if some people get good paying government jobs taking care of bums and drug addicts I can tell you now, that they will make sure there are MORE bums and drug addicts to keep those good jobs. Then they will want their daughter or son to get one of those good jobs and then you will need more bums. I would rather the government produce jobs in some less destructive way. It would be better for the country AND the bums. If no one says anything it will just get worse. Most people don't want to be bothered worrying about it. Then I WILL DO SOMETHING. Is this wrong to want what is best for the country? Everyone always thinks of the money. There are principles here.janice


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Re: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: {WP} Bush Treaties....

2001-12-14 Thread JaniceSturgill


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In a message dated 12/14/01 9:52:49 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


OK! We both know that both the alternatives can not work alone. The result of a totally free Capitalism as well as a totally free Socialism both ends in caos by themselves. I beleive in a reasonable balance between the two. I'm for both.
 
Claes
§( :8-)
 


I don't know. People having the nature to not do things for themselves if someone will do it for them, I think it would always be more and more socialism. What do you think? janice


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SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: {WP} Bush Treaties....

2001-12-13 Thread Claes Persson




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In a message dated 12/12/01 9:48:07 AM 
  Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  Alcohol destroy the brain and for some it's too late. They are 
not able to take care of themselves. They sometimes get a small pension for 
medical reasons. But temporary help is to be payed back. Can you not call 
this a direct act of "Big Brother"?Claes§( :8-)
  See here is where we 
  part company. If someone drinks themselves to the point they can no longer 
  function, I say let them rot. No one held the bottle to their mouth and FORCED 
  them to drink. You act as if you think most people are weak and can't help 
  what they do. I think people will do pretty much what you EXPECT them to do. 
  If you expect them to be weak, they will be weak. If you expect them to be 
  strong, they will be strong. A lot of people will use it as an excuse to do 
  bad if that is what you think of them. So, I always expect people to be the 
  best they can be. God doesn't make junk.janice
  _
  
  First: all people are not 
  strong anyway.
  Second: All that is 
  conservatine crap in order to save taxes. Get back to the real life where 
  there are all sorts of people.
  Third: I still think that 
  no one should decide any ones faith, or expected time of life, witch is what 
  you try to do by denying them help. Can we givehelp to the "weak" people 
  in other parts of the world we must also do something for our own 
  weak.
  
  Claes
  §( :8-)
  
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SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: {WP} Bush Treaties....

2001-12-13 Thread Claes Persson




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In a message dated 12/12/01 7:45:04 AM 
  Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  Capitalism is an important tool for development, trade and 
spread of wealth, but it can not be allowed to run heywild. Then the bad 
outways the good.Claes§( :8-)
  You make some very 
  valid points. But it is far better that the alternative No? 
janice
  ___
  
  Sorry, Janice, but I don't get the question:)
  
  Claes
  §( :8-)
  
  
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Re: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: {WP} Bush Treaties....

2001-12-13 Thread JaniceSturgill


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In a message dated 12/13/01 10:38:46 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


First: all people are not strong anyway.
Second: All that is conservatine crap in order to save taxes. Get back to the real life where there are all sorts of people.
Third: I still think that no one should decide any ones faith, or expected time of life, witch is what you try to do by denying them help. Can we give help to the "weak" people in other parts of the world we must also do something for our own weak.
 
Claes


I am not deciding ANYONES faith or length of life. Tell me, do you think anyone should be responsible for what they do and how they live. If I understand you correctly, I can drink and take drugs and not pay my bills or clean my house and you would pay someone to take care of me because I am weak? Is that what you are saying? I just want to be sure that I understand. janice


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Re: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: {WP} Bush Treaties....

2001-12-13 Thread JaniceSturgill


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In a message dated 12/13/01 11:49:43 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:



Capitalism is an important tool for development, trade and spread of wealth, but it can not be allowed to run heywild. Then the bad outways the good.

Claes
§( :8-)



You make some very valid points. But it is far better that the alternative No? janice
___
 
Sorry, Janice, but I don't get the question:)


I was asking if you didn't think that Capitalism was better than Socialism? janice


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Re: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: {WP} Bush Treaties....

2001-12-12 Thread Ezeditor


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In a message dated 12/12/01 4:52:02 AM Pacific Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Oh horse pucky!! I like what the Gov. of Arkansas did though. He's putting 
it to a vote. Those people like you who want to help the bums, can vote 
themselves higher taxes. Then they leave the rest of us alone. I hope it 
catches on. janice
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 
Are everybody a bum? All the got layd off at Boing, for example? Some of them 
may be need help for some time. Of course, if nothing is done to help them 
over this harch happening they soon will be bums and, if get your way, will 
vanish. State save money, but loose people. 
___
[On a similiar note] -- Oh Road Apples! You know perfectly well that Janice 
is referring to the people who refuse to work, not the people that have been 
laid off ... Geesh!

LG


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SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: {WP} Bush Treaties....

2001-12-12 Thread Claes Persson


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 In a message dated 12/12/01 4:52:02 AM Pacific Standard Time, 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
  Oh horse pucky!! I like what the Gov. of Arkansas did though. He's putting 
 it to a vote. Those people like you who want to help the bums, can vote 
 themselves higher taxes. Then they leave the rest of us alone. I hope it 
 catches on. janice
 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 
 Are everybody a bum? All the got layd off at Boing, for example? Some of them 
 may be need help for some time. Of course, if nothing is done to help them 
 over this harch happening they soon will be bums and, if get your way, will 
 vanish. State save money, but loose people. 
 ___
 [On a similiar note] -- Oh Road Apples! You know perfectly well that Janice 
 is referring to the people who refuse to work, not the people that have been 
 laid off ... Geesh!
 
 LG
_

Sorry! a missunderstanding. If someone refuse to take an advised job that is, as far 
as any one can see, suitable for that person concerning physics and education? The 
first time he or she loose 25% for 100 days. The second time he or she looses 50% for 
100 days. The third time he or she refuses to take a job like that he or she is off 
the money for being out of work. Then no more money for being out of work until they 
have qualified themselves by working in a regular job for 12 months. Thats so in 
Sweden. It's of to social security where they have to explain themselves and go to 
jobsearching activities. What about the USA?

Claes
§( :8-)

 
 
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Re: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: {WP} Bush Treaties....

2001-12-12 Thread JaniceSturgill


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In a message dated 12/12/01 4:51:56 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


Are everybody a bum? All the got layd off at Boing, for example? Some of them may be need help for some time. Of course, if nothing is done to help them over this harch happening they soon will be bums and, if get your way, will vanish. State save money, but loose people.
 
Then the next group gets laid off, and then the next. Then, in the end, there is only little janice left to pay for the whole government, except for all those bums that in large numbers succeded crossing the border from the south. Glorious future you have.


Claes, you kind hearted sweetie you. When Boeing lays off someone, not only do they get unemployment insurance. Their unions have made deals to where they ALMOST get as much as when they were working. There are jobs galore here. You may need two (such as I have at times). But if you are willing there is work. Most of the people on welfare are recent immigrants who should not be here and women who had children while not married and drug addicts and alcoholics. Now there are people who will say that most of the people on welfare are children. This is also true. They are the children of the bums I just mentioned. And while it is OK to feel sorry for them it is their BUM parents who have caused their plight not I. And as long as we keep paying them to have children while not married a drug addict or an alcoholic, they will never stop. The best thing to do is to FORCE them to get a job, which they would do if the government was not paying them NOT to work. Do you understand yet??janice


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Re: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: {WP} Bush Treaties....

2001-12-12 Thread JaniceSturgill


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In a message dated 12/12/01 7:45:04 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


Capitalism is an important tool for development, trade and spread of wealth, but it can not be allowed to run heywild. Then the bad outways the good.
 
Claes
§( :8-)


You make some very valid points. But it is far better that the alternative No? janice


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SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: {WP} Bush Treaties....

2001-12-12 Thread Claes Persson




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4:51:56 AM Pacific Standard Time, 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  Are everybody a bum? All the got layd off at Boing, for example? 
Some of them may be need help for some time. Of course, if nothing is done 
to help them over this harch happening they soon will be bums and, if get 
your way, will vanish. State save money, but loose people.Then the next 
group gets laid off, and then the next. Then, in the end, there is only 
little janice left to pay for the whole government, except for all those 
bums that in large numbers succeded crossing the border from the south. 
Glorious future you have.
  Claes, you kind 
  hearted sweetie you. When Boeing lays off someone, not only do they get 
  unemployment insurance. Their unions have made deals to where they ALMOST get 
  as much as when they were working. There are jobs galore here. You may need 
  two (such as I have at times). But if you are willing there is work. Most of 
  the people on welfare are recent immigrants who should not be here and women 
  who had children while not married and drug addicts and alcoholics. Now there 
  are people who will say that most of the people on welfare are children. This 
  is also true. They are the children of the bums I just mentioned. And while it 
  is OK to feel sorry for them it is their BUM parents who have caused their 
  plight not I. And as long as we keep paying them to have children while not 
  married a drug addict or an alcoholic, they will never stop. The best thing to 
  do is to FORCE them to get a job, which they would do if the government was 
  not paying them NOT to work. Do you understand yet??janice
  
  _
  
  Yes. I jumped into the 
  wrong barrel (or bucket?) there. A missunderstanding!
  
  I have alredy explained 
  it to... (sorry, I forgot who) but I write it down again.
  
  People that refuse to 
  take a job that, as far as any one can judge, is suitable according to physic 
  and aducational reasons is treated this way here in Sweden:
  
  First time refusal he or 
  she (both genders are just as requent, I think) is loosing 25% of the 
  unemployment money for 100 days. (It's a collective unemployment insurance in 
  Sweden). The second time refusal it's 50% of for100 days. The third time 
  it's cut off and then it's off to social security where there is a whole lot 
  of explaining to do. And to participate in jobsearching activities if they 
  want to get money regularly.
  
  To be excepted for 
  unimployment money again they have to have a 12 month period of regular work, 
  the same way they qualified in the first place.
  
  There is no such pressing 
  on the refusals in the USA?
  
  Claes
  §( :8-)
  
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SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: {WP} Bush Treaties....

2001-12-11 Thread Claes Persson




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In a message dated 12/10/01 4:19:48 PM 
  Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  --I thought that you knew that. In any case you are 
quite sure of how not to spend them. Does not the one knolledge comes with 
the other?Claes§( :8-)
  How about WE keep it and decide for ourselves? Novel concept huh? 
  janice
  `__
  
  So, it's greed that is behind all this complaining that the society have 
  to spend some money for the misfortuned? You want more personal freedom, 
  right? It's the same all world over.
  
  Claes§( :8-)
  

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SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: {WP} Bush Treaties....

2001-12-11 Thread Claes Persson


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 In a message dated 12/11/01 11:46:33 AM Pacific Standard Time, 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
  the loudest demands seems to come from the USA. Shame on you! 
 
 +
 OK -- I'm thoroughly chastised ... how about we pack 'em up and send 'em all 
 to Europe, since you have so much more to offer and can take better care of 
 them... We'll even pay for the one-way tickets ... fair enough?
 
 LG
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If you take hours from the rest of the world. Then it's not enough to learn only to 
speak spanish beside american. You need at least 20 translating helpers with several 
differet languages each

Claes
§( :8-)


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Re: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: {WP} Bush Treaties....

2001-12-11 Thread JaniceSturgill


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In a message dated 12/11/01 4:06:00 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


So, it's greed that is behind all this complaining that the society have to spend some money for the misfortuned? You want more personal freedom, right? It's the same all world over.
 
Claes
§( :8-)


Claes, you are a sweet man. How about we agree to disagree on this subject? I will never think it is greedy to want to keep my own money for things that I need instead of giving it to people that are too lazy to work. You think that I am greedy. So we disagree. OK? janice


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Re: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: {WP} Bush Treaties....

2001-12-11 Thread JaniceSturgill


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In a message dated 12/11/01 2:12:26 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:



Is it not allowed to try and fail? You know, the corporations decide who to emply, not those out of work. In the 17:th century the normal attitude to those beeing out of work was that it was their own faults, but since then the economists and nealry every one else have understood that it is not that simple. When will you?
 
Claes
§( :8-)
 




Let me go out on a limb here. You are Anti capitalist? janice


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SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: {WP} Bush Treaties....

2001-12-10 Thread Claes Persson


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 In a message dated 12/10/01 1:42:43 AM Pacific Standard Time, 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
  How should the goverment spend the money? 
 __
 If we knew that, WE'D be the ones with the cushy jobs in D.C.
 
 LG
__

--I  thought that you knew that. In any case you are quite sure of how not to spend 
them. Does not the one knolledge comes with the other?

Claes
§( :8-)

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