Re: Database choices
The community edition is free, and you get InnoDB and MyISAM with it. Basically the community edition lags a few dot releases behind the enterprise edition but is more or less the same product. Simon On 30 Oct 2007, at 03:50, Cheong Hee (Datasonic) wrote: Some may not aware that MYSQL is not free! The pricing for InnoDB and MyISAM are different, being InnoDB is slightly more expensive. ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Database choices
Thanks for pointing out. I overlooked this as costing for commercial is always part of concerns. To share a bit, these are some info I am able to dig out from MySQL support team email: One commercial license is required for each server. For MySQL Classic, each commercial license cost US$395 For MySQL Pro, each commercial license costs US$695 Cheers Cheong Hee - Original Message - From: Simon McLean To: Cheong Hee (Datasonic) Cc: webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 5:48 PM Subject: Re: Database choices The community edition is free, and you get InnoDB and MyISAM with it. Basically the community edition lags a few dot releases behind the enterprise edition but is more or less the same product. Simon On 30 Oct 2007, at 03:50, Cheong Hee (Datasonic) wrote: Some may not aware that MYSQL is not free! The pricing for InnoDB and MyISAM are different, being InnoDB is slightly more expensive. ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Database choices
When we spoke with MySQL a while back, I believe that you only have to pay the licensing fee if you BUNDLE mysql with your product. That is, if you ship a product and mysql is inside of it, then you pay. If you install MySQL separately, then you don't. I even specifically asked them about this because it sounded very weird, phrasing it like I have in the previous sentence, and they agreed. It's possible the licensing has changed since then (this was I believe in late 2005), but I doubt it. So given that, most people aren't selling WO product bundles, and if they are they probably are not INCLUDING mysql in it, so it's unlikely that pricing actually affects WO people. ms On Oct 30, 2007, at 6:12 AM, Cheong Hee (DS) wrote: Thanks for pointing out. I overlooked this as costing for commercial is always part of concerns. To share a bit, these are some info I am able to dig out from MySQL support team email: One commercial license is required for each server. For MySQL Classic, each commercial license cost US$395 For MySQL Pro, each commercial license costs US$695 Cheers Cheong Hee - Original Message - From: Simon McLean To: Cheong Hee (Datasonic) Cc: webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 5:48 PM Subject: Re: Database choices The community edition is free, and you get InnoDB and MyISAM with it. Basically the community edition lags a few dot releases behind the enterprise edition but is more or less the same product. Simon On 30 Oct 2007, at 03:50, Cheong Hee (Datasonic) wrote: Some may not aware that MYSQL is not free! The pricing for InnoDB and MyISAM are different, being InnoDB is slightly more expensive. ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/mschrag%40mdimension.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Database choices
New licensing al- lows for free deployment of WebObjects applications. I missed this completely ... That's pretty huge, and definitely worth looking more into. Apologies to OpenBase! ms ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Database choices
We use FrontBase for an application that does mostly large, complex queries (aggregating data, etc). A few things about FrontBase have bothered me and made me consider switching to Postgres: - The database process crashes sometimes due to various queries that it doesn't like - Left join performance is bad - Legacy left join syntax can return incorrect results - OR performance is bad - Multi-column indexes only allow a range of values for the last column of the index - resulting in bad performance - Adding columns to large tables can take hours and makes the DB unresponsive So I would say that FrontBase is great for applications that do simple, fast queries, but maybe not if your needs are more demanding. John ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Database choices
On 29.10.2007, at 19:52, Mike Schrag wrote: in FB, you might want to take a look at: OPTIMIZE DATABASE; OPTIMIZE DISK ZONE disk zone name | DEFAULT; (see Page 115 of the FB User Guide for more info) ... Maybe will help? As far as I understood Geert, this will not reclaim space on disk. You'll have to do a backup/restore cycle to get that back. We had that problem with a fairly large logging database, where the space on disk doubled after an optimize - to 40GB ... And backup / restore takes too long to tolerate the downtime. Yes! FB has a query plan output also, but it's worthless. It's totally cryptic and doesn't nearly report enough information about what it did. My kingdom for them to make this better and on par with most of the competition. Yes, same feelings here. I'd love to see something like explain analyze ... on FrontBase. The output in FrontBase only told me, that it was using some indexes for this and that, but that's about it. Can't you just pg_dump your tables? Sure you can, but than you have just one monolithic backup. And point in time recovery, what FrontBase backup does if you keep transaction logs, is on PG just plain pain in the ... wherever. FrontBase is easier to setup with that and just works (at least it did for us). PITR in PostgreSQL requires for a non-dba some serious shell scripting testing and digging until it works as expected. And even than it is not nice. For a dba, this might sound ridiculous, but for me it isn't. And just for completeness, I always have strange problems with FB Backup/Restore -- For one, they're not endian-safe, so you can't backup and restore across architectures, which just sucks. You can't do either with PostgreSQL PITR (basically wal archiving). We found, that it mainly works from a Linux 64 bit Suse box to a Mac OS X Server (Leopard), 64 Bit compiled PG, if you recreate all indexes on the Leopard machine or use a plain C locale. For another, it seems to segfault under odd circumstances for me when I try to move across machines, even of the same architecture. I write backup and also write all output just to be safe (write all output is actually not transactionally safe on FB, but I like to have it as a just in case in the event of an emergency). I do the same. Another wish I have is if I add a fulltext index, that I could tell it to make '%whatever%' queries use LookSee so I don't have to resort to proprietary SQL to do it. I know WHY they don't do this, but it would just be a little nicer. I always mean to write a FullTextQualifier in Wonder that will turn into the proper SQL for a full-text search in the various databases, but I never seem get around to it. Maybe this will appear one day if you ignore it long enough? Who knows? :-P Yeah I would agree with this, too ... And we mix and match. The other one is that PG has a much better query optimizer. If you ever do a left outer join in FB, you may find that under certain circumstances performance really sucks. We had to switch one of our apps over to PG which handed FB its ass in query performance with a complex query over a fairly large dataset. For straight WO, this turns out to not matter much, because WO tends to generate fairly simple queries, but if you ever have particular complex custom SQL fetches, you might run into it. We had the same problem about two years ago when I was still working in Germany, and it was really a pain. The planner did an obviously wrong choice (doing a nested loop or something similar over a set of more than 100k rows ...) where it could just use a subset (or subselect). The query was generated by D2W, so not much I could do about that without hacking way to deep and loosing all the nice, fast and easy development. I switched this app to PostgreSQL which handled that case way better. As far as I know, FrontBase has solved this by bringing the query optimizer that was planned for version 5 into version 4. It solved the problem for the queries I had, but was still about a factor of two or three slower on that kind of stuff than FrontBase was. And we were on fairly old hardware and needed the speed. So we stayed with PG for that. But to be fair: if you run into that kind of problem, the guys at FrontBase really want to help you and normally they find a way quickly. cug ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Database choices
On Oct 30, 2007, at 7:31 AM, John Huss wrote: We use FrontBase for an application that does mostly large, complex queries (aggregating data, etc). A few things about FrontBase have bothered me and made me consider switching to Postgres: - The database process crashes sometimes due to various queries that it doesn't like Usually this is a parser bug and they have always fixed them quickly. But it is definitely not something you want to find on an app in production. - Left join performance is bad - Legacy left join syntax can return incorrect results - OR performance is bad Yes, something odd is going on there. - Multi-column indexes only allow a range of values for the last column of the index - resulting in bad performance I have not run into this one. Can you elaborate on this? - Adding columns to large tables can take hours and makes the DB unresponsive So I would say that FrontBase is great for applications that do simple, fast queries, but maybe not if your needs are more demanding. Chuck -- Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Database choices
On 30.10.2007, at 11:01, Chuck Hill wrote: - OR performance is bad Yes, something odd is going on there. If you stay inside one column with your or its using an index, if you use two different columns in an or, it won't. E.g.: select * from foo where a = 'bar' or a = 'bas'; will use an index, but: select * from foo where a = 'bar' or b = 'bar'; will not. cug ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Database choices
For example, the FrontBase mail list archive has this message: Subject: [RESOLVED] Re: Optimization/Caching/Indexing how-to The order of the columns in the composite index definition is very important for your case. If you want the optimal performance, you need to put the timestamp column last in the index definition because it is used with a range. The server cannot use the column of an index after one with a range qualifier. For example, in your case, if your composite index is define like these example with a = check on fkY and fkZ and a range on dateX: - (dateX, fkY, fkZ), only the date columsn is used like an index (dateX) - (fkY, dateX, fkZ), only the fkY and date columsn is used like an index (fkY, dateX) ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Database choices
But to be fair: if you run into that kind of problem, the guys at FrontBase really want to help you and normally they find a way quickly. Agreed ... FrontBase support is great. ms ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Database choices
* Chuck Hill [2007/10/29 01:31 PM -0700] wrote: It is easy to install and administer and has pretty tools. But it is not free, not SQL92 standard, and doesn't have (last time I used it) multiple column indexes. One choice that hasn't been mentioned, and is perhaps worth exploring given the features raised as important here (clustering, replication, SQL-9x/200x, optimization engine, EXPLAIN, multi-column indexes, etc.). OpenLink Virtuoso Universal Server http://virtuoso.openlinksw.com/wiki/main/Main/ http://sf.net/projects/virtuoso The Open Source Edition is linked above. The Commercial version also includes Virtual DBMS features -- so you can keep your existing Oracle, MySQL, PostgreSQL, Progress, Informix, etc. repositories, and just make use of them through Virtuoso's feature set, which includes -- * Object-Relational Database for SQL, XML, RDF, and Free Text that includes Java and .NET runtime hosting * RDF store and SPARQL * WebDAV and Web Application Server * Web Services Platform for SOA * Data Access Interfaces for ODBC, JDBC, ADO.net and OLE/DB clients * Web-based administration interface and interactive developer tutorials The what's new blurbs for the latest two dot-releases -- 2007-09-27: Release v5.0.2 This release includes 64-bit Integer support, RDF Sink Folders for WebDAV (enabling RDF Quad Store population simply by dropping RDF files into WebDAV), SPARUL optimizations, enhanced typed literal support in SPARQL, automatic metadata extraction from audio binary files, support for PHP 5.2 runtime hosting, an enhanced UI for RDF Linked-Data deployment using URL-rewrite rules, sew Sponger cartridges for Facebook, Freebase, Wikipedia, GRDDL, RDFa, eRDF and more. The Demonstration Database includes RDF Views SQL Table samples for the THALIA data integration benchmark and testsuite and the Tutorial application includes Linked Data-style RDF Views for the Northwind SQL DBMS schema (the standard Virtuoso demo database schema). There is a new Amazon EC2 Image variation of Virtuoso with a fully configured instance comprising the Virtuoso core, OpenLink Data Spaces application suite and the OpenLink Ajax Toolkit. 2007-05-31: Release v5.0.1 This release includes an enhanced cost-based optimizer; fixed-cost calculation for RDF inf nodes; improved SPARQL performance and support for BREAKUP optimization for triple-construction from SQL data and support for the LIMIT and OFFSET clauses to CONSTRUCT and DESCRIBE; documentation updates; significant updates to all ODS applications: compliance with the latest SIOC vocabulary, calendar, OpenID login and registration. There are also small bug-fixes. (Yes, I work for OpenLink. No, I get no benefit if you grab the Open Source Edition, nor directly if you buy a license for the Commercial Edition or any services associated with either. I would like to hear from you about both positive and negative experiences with either.) Be seeing you, Ted -- -- A: Yes. http://www.guckes.net/faq/attribution.html | Q: Are you sure? | | A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. | | | Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? Ted Thibodeau, Jr. // voice +1-781-273-0900 x32 Evangelism Support //mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] OpenLink Software, Inc. // http://www.openlinksw.com/ http://www.openlinksw.com/weblogs/uda/ OpenLink Blogs http://www.openlinksw.com/weblogs/virtuoso/ http://www.openlinksw.com/blog/~kidehen/ Universal Data Access and Virtual Database Technology Providers ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Database choices
If you're going to use MySQL with WebObjects in a production environment, make sure to do the following: - create all your tables with InnoDB engine support - the default MyISAM support is non-transactional - make sure to create all your tables with the right charset and collation (UTF-8 all the way). MySQL's internationalization support is excellent but ONLY if configured properly. - make sure to add the correct voodoo to the JDBC connection string for your application so that it uses the right charset / collation over the JDBC connection. While MySQL has worked out quite well for us when used with WebObjects (and PHP), the lack of sequences makes it a less viable choice for projects going forward. These days we go out of our way to design schemas that are WebObjects, Ruby on Rails, Hibernate, and PHP friendly. The MySQL / EO_PK_TABLE paradigm just doesn't fit well in this methodology - PostgreSQL is a much better choice. thanks! -shehryar On Oct 30, 2007, at 11:42 AM, John Huss wrote: For example, the FrontBase mail list archive has this message: Subject: [RESOLVED] Re: Optimization/Caching/Indexing how-to The order of the columns in the composite index definition is very important for your case. If you want the optimal performance, you need to put the timestamp column last in the index definition because it is used with a range. The server cannot use the column of an index after one with a range qualifier. For example, in your case, if your composite index is define like these example with a = check on fkY and fkZ and a range on dateX: - (dateX, fkY, fkZ), only the date columsn is used like an index (dateX) - (fkY, dateX, fkZ), only the fkY and date columsn is used like an index (fkY, dateX) ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/khans% 40ubermind.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Database choices
If I understand what they are saying / what the situation is, then that seems like a reasonable limitation on using indexes for optimization. Chuck On Oct 30, 2007, at 11:42 AM, John Huss wrote: For example, the FrontBase mail list archive has this message: Subject: [RESOLVED] Re: Optimization/Caching/Indexing how-to The order of the columns in the composite index definition is very important for your case. If you want the optimal performance, you need to put the timestamp column last in the index definition because it is used with a range. The server cannot use the column of an index after one with a range qualifier. For example, in your case, if your composite index is define like these example with a = check on fkY and fkZ and a range on dateX: - (dateX, fkY, fkZ), only the date columsn is used like an index (dateX) - (fkY, dateX, fkZ), only the fkY and date columsn is used like an index (fkY, dateX) -- Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Database choices
WebObjects OpenBase 10 includes a new plugin and WO qualifier objects, allowing you to easily perform complex sub-queries inside your WebObjects applications. Schema synchroni- zation functions allow users to easily manage WebObjects schemas. New licensing al- lows for free deployment of WebObjects applications. Is OB 10 free for any of the versions for WO deployment, or is this license only for specific versions (like the Solo version or something)? ms ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Database choices
Is OB 10 free for any of the versions for WO deployment, or is this license only for specific versions (like the Solo version or something)? Our mail server is being super slow, btw ... So I'm not just retarded and asking already-answered questions 15 minutes later :) ms ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Database choices
i don't think it's your mail server mike - i've also been getting jumbled up messages from the wo-dev list for the past day or so... simon On 30 Oct 2007, at 22:12, Mike Schrag wrote: Is OB 10 free for any of the versions for WO deployment, or is this license only for specific versions (like the Solo version or something)? Our mail server is being super slow, btw ... So I'm not just retarded and asking already-answered questions 15 minutes later :) ms ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/simon_mclean% 40mac.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Database choices
Hi Mike, The solo license is for single server local-access. It should work with any version of WO, not sure about 5.4 yet. http://www.openbase.com/home-News-detail.1060.html Gordon On 30-Oct-07, at 5:42 PM, Mike Schrag wrote: WebObjects OpenBase 10 includes a new plugin and WO qualifier objects, allowing you to easily perform complex sub-queries inside your WebObjects applications. Schema synchroni- zation functions allow users to easily manage WebObjects schemas. New licensing al- lows for free deployment of WebObjects applications. Is OB 10 free for any of the versions for WO deployment, or is this license only for specific versions (like the Solo version or something)? ms ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/gordon.belray% 40utoronto.ca This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Gordon Belray Information Architect and Imaging System Manager Information Technology Services Robarts Library 416.946.8617cell: 416.427.7007 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Database choices
On Oct 30, 2007, at 10:38 PM, Gordon Belray wrote: The solo license is for single server local-access. It should work with any version of WO, not sure about 5.4 yet. It worked fine for me with WO 5.4. ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Database choices
Using Leopard Eclipse WOLips - which is the database of choice. I have heard postgres is the best of the opensource ones. But which one works best with replacement tool for EOModeler? ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Database choices
Hi! I don't understand your question. WOLips has nothing to do with the DB. As long as you have the correct plugin installed, WOLips will be able to handle SQL generation for any DB. You have a lot of criteria to base your decision, but in what relates to WO and WOLips, it's just a matter of being supported or not by WO. If it is, no problems with that. Yours Miguel Arroz On 2007/10/29, at 14:23, Ken Foust wrote: Using Leopard Eclipse WOLips - which is the database of choice. I have heard postgres is the best of the opensource ones. But which one works best with replacement tool for EOModeler? ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/arroz% 40guiamac.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Miguel Arroz http://www.terminalapp.net http://www.ipragma.com smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Database choices
I prefer FrontBase ... It's trivial to setup, runs very well, and it's free. MySQL and PostgreSQL are obvious other choices as well. ms On Oct 29, 2007, at 10:23 AM, Ken Foust wrote: Using Leopard Eclipse WOLips - which is the database of choice. I have heard postgres is the best of the opensource ones. But which one works best with replacement tool for EOModeler? ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/mschrag%40mdimension.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Database choices
I'll stick up for MySQL! You can be up and running in minutes, it has a simple admin app and you can still get under the hood and tinker to the n'th degree if you really want to. Simon On 29 Oct 2007, at 17:16, Chuck Hill wrote: I am with Mike on this. If you just need free, FrontBase is hard to beat. If you must have open source, PostgreSQL. MySQL has some nice features, but... I dunno, it is still MySQLToy to me. Chuck On Oct 29, 2007, at 9:52 AM, Mike Schrag wrote: I prefer FrontBase ... It's trivial to setup, runs very well, and it's free. MySQL and PostgreSQL are obvious other choices as well. ms On Oct 29, 2007, at 10:23 AM, Ken Foust wrote: Using Leopard Eclipse WOLips - which is the database of choice. I have heard postgres is the best of the opensource ones. But which one works best with replacement tool for EOModeler? ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/mschrag% 40mdimension.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/chill% 40global-village.net This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/simon_mclean% 40mac.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Database choices
I am with Mike on this. If you just need free, FrontBase is hard to beat. If you must have open source, PostgreSQL. MySQL has some nice features, but... I dunno, it is still MySQLToy to me. Chuck On Oct 29, 2007, at 9:52 AM, Mike Schrag wrote: I prefer FrontBase ... It's trivial to setup, runs very well, and it's free. MySQL and PostgreSQL are obvious other choices as well. ms On Oct 29, 2007, at 10:23 AM, Ken Foust wrote: Using Leopard Eclipse WOLips - which is the database of choice. I have heard postgres is the best of the opensource ones. But which one works best with replacement tool for EOModeler? ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/mschrag% 40mdimension.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/chill% 40global-village.net This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Database choices
You know, I have thought this same thing of MySQL for years, but I think it's because I'm evaluating it based on its feature set from 1998 and not giving it a fair shake. I've read a lot of stories on, for instance, highavailability.com about huge sites that use it. I'm not too keen on the restriction that clustering is in-memory only, but it actually seems like a legitimate database these days (ONLY with InnoDB). It's on my list of things to evaluate more fairly :) ms On Oct 29, 2007, at 1:16 PM, Chuck Hill wrote: I am with Mike on this. If you just need free, FrontBase is hard to beat. If you must have open source, PostgreSQL. MySQL has some nice features, but... I dunno, it is still MySQLToy to me. Chuck On Oct 29, 2007, at 9:52 AM, Mike Schrag wrote: I prefer FrontBase ... It's trivial to setup, runs very well, and it's free. MySQL and PostgreSQL are obvious other choices as well. ms On Oct 29, 2007, at 10:23 AM, Ken Foust wrote: Using Leopard Eclipse WOLips - which is the database of choice. I have heard postgres is the best of the opensource ones. But which one works best with replacement tool for EOModeler? ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/mschrag%40mdimension.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/chill%40global-village.net This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Database choices
Finally, I have zero criticsm for FrontBase or PostqreSQL just have never had a need to go there yet although, I am planning to give serious playtime to both someday soon when I get time especially after all the positive comments about Frontbase and PostgreSQL here in the community. I've mentioned it before, but my #1 gripe about PG is that there is no viable (non-commercial) clustering solution for it. It makes it very hard to create a fault-tolerant deployment of it, unlike MySQL and FB. Other than that, I really like PG. ms ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Database choices
I'm not too keen on the restriction that clustering is in-memory only I agree with this. You also need a minimum 3 servers to have a true cluster so it becomes incredibly expensive because you need mountains of RAM in each server. But if you are just looking for data security/back-up etc rather than load balancing and true redundancy then MySQL replication is trivially simple. We use it to keep a virtually live replica of our production databases on a local server. You can actually do some form of load balancing with replication by distributing SELECT statements between slaves, but limiting UPDATE statements to the master. Simon ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Database choices
Same here. Until recently I didn't care about MySQL at all, but after a year of running a clustered installation on a *very* active site that previously ran on Oracle, I'd say it is a very good choice... Although the site is heavily skewed towards reads. Not sure how well MySQL behaves with many concurrent updates. Andrus On Oct 29, 2007, at 7:40 PM, Mike Schrag wrote: You know, I have thought this same thing of MySQL for years, but I think it's because I'm evaluating it based on its feature set from 1998 and not giving it a fair shake. I've read a lot of stories on, for instance, highavailability.com about huge sites that use it. I'm not too keen on the restriction that clustering is in- memory only, but it actually seems like a legitimate database these days (ONLY with InnoDB). It's on my list of things to evaluate more fairly :) ms On Oct 29, 2007, at 1:16 PM, Chuck Hill wrote: I am with Mike on this. If you just need free, FrontBase is hard to beat. If you must have open source, PostgreSQL. MySQL has some nice features, but... I dunno, it is still MySQLToy to me. Chuck On Oct 29, 2007, at 9:52 AM, Mike Schrag wrote: I prefer FrontBase ... It's trivial to setup, runs very well, and it's free. MySQL and PostgreSQL are obvious other choices as well. ms On Oct 29, 2007, at 10:23 AM, Ken Foust wrote: Using Leopard Eclipse WOLips - which is the database of choice. I have heard postgres is the best of the opensource ones. But which one works best with replacement tool for EOModeler? ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/mschrag% 40mdimension.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/chill% 40global-village.net This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/andrus% 40objectstyle.org This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Database choices
I am sure that you can make it go, but other than clustering, why bother? If you don't need that it seems like a lot of configuration work, research, etc. for what FrontBase gives you with a single click installer. Chuck On Oct 29, 2007, at 10:40 AM, Mike Schrag wrote: You know, I have thought this same thing of MySQL for years, but I think it's because I'm evaluating it based on its feature set from 1998 and not giving it a fair shake. I've read a lot of stories on, for instance, highavailability.com about huge sites that use it. I'm not too keen on the restriction that clustering is in- memory only, but it actually seems like a legitimate database these days (ONLY with InnoDB). It's on my list of things to evaluate more fairly :) ms On Oct 29, 2007, at 1:16 PM, Chuck Hill wrote: I am with Mike on this. If you just need free, FrontBase is hard to beat. If you must have open source, PostgreSQL. MySQL has some nice features, but... I dunno, it is still MySQLToy to me. Chuck On Oct 29, 2007, at 9:52 AM, Mike Schrag wrote: I prefer FrontBase ... It's trivial to setup, runs very well, and it's free. MySQL and PostgreSQL are obvious other choices as well. ms On Oct 29, 2007, at 10:23 AM, Ken Foust wrote: Using Leopard Eclipse WOLips - which is the database of choice. I have heard postgres is the best of the opensource ones. But which one works best with replacement tool for EOModeler? ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/mschrag% 40mdimension.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/chill% 40global-village.net This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/chill% 40global-village.net This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Database choices
Tcsh, tcsh MySQLToy! I must be a kid then :-p Seriously ... it is garbage using *DEFAULT* MyISAM with WebObjects, but with *InnoDB transactional engine*, I find it quite troublefree. Requires one to look up the manual and decide what innodb settings they need to set in /my.cnf, but other than that I really like MySQL only because I am very familiar with it and I have no issues with it ... but having said that ... the default configuration will not perform or function very well .. you must configure it. The Jeremy Zawodny book on Advanced MySQL is very enlightening. Finally, I have zero criticsm for FrontBase or PostqreSQL just have never had a need to go there yet although, I am planning to give serious playtime to both someday soon when I get time especially after all the positive comments about Frontbase and PostgreSQL here in the community. Regards, Kieran On Oct 29, 2007, at 1:16 PM, Chuck Hill wrote: I am with Mike on this. If you just need free, FrontBase is hard to beat. If you must have open source, PostgreSQL. MySQL has some nice features, but... I dunno, it is still MySQLToy to me. Chuck ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Database choices
Le 07-10-29 à 14:06, Mike Schrag a écrit : Finally, I have zero criticsm for FrontBase or PostqreSQL just have never had a need to go there yet although, I am planning to give serious playtime to both someday soon when I get time especially after all the positive comments about Frontbase and PostgreSQL here in the community. I've mentioned it before, but my #1 gripe about PG is that there is no viable (non-commercial) clustering solution for it. It makes it very hard to create a fault-tolerant deployment of it, unlike MySQL and FB. Other than that, I really like PG. +1000, and replication options are total crap (Slony is the less worse, and you have to rebuild the replication when you made a change to the schema). ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Database choices
I suspect they very likely have compelling performance numbers, but I haven't had time to actually run tests with our real databases on it ... There are graphical MySQL front-ends (whereas FB's is fine, but sort of passable), and honestly there are pkg installs of it also at this point, so it's not a WHOLE lot more than double-click-to-install at this point. Slightly more obnoxious with permissions and users, etc, I suspect. I think FB wins pretty handily in the competition from zero-to-running-database, but how often are you doing that part? In terms of % of time spent, that's only a fraction of your db's life. I just don't want to discount it because a decade ago it sucked. ms On Oct 29, 2007, at 2:22 PM, Chuck Hill wrote: I am sure that you can make it go, but other than clustering, why bother? If you don't need that it seems like a lot of configuration work, research, etc. for what FrontBase gives you with a single click installer. Chuck On Oct 29, 2007, at 10:40 AM, Mike Schrag wrote: You know, I have thought this same thing of MySQL for years, but I think it's because I'm evaluating it based on its feature set from 1998 and not giving it a fair shake. I've read a lot of stories on, for instance, highavailability.com about huge sites that use it. I'm not too keen on the restriction that clustering is in- memory only, but it actually seems like a legitimate database these days (ONLY with InnoDB). It's on my list of things to evaluate more fairly :) ms On Oct 29, 2007, at 1:16 PM, Chuck Hill wrote: I am with Mike on this. If you just need free, FrontBase is hard to beat. If you must have open source, PostgreSQL. MySQL has some nice features, but... I dunno, it is still MySQLToy to me. Chuck On Oct 29, 2007, at 9:52 AM, Mike Schrag wrote: I prefer FrontBase ... It's trivial to setup, runs very well, and it's free. MySQL and PostgreSQL are obvious other choices as well. ms On Oct 29, 2007, at 10:23 AM, Ken Foust wrote: Using Leopard Eclipse WOLips - which is the database of choice. I have heard postgres is the best of the opensource ones. But which one works best with replacement tool for EOModeler? ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/mschrag%40mdimension.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/chill%40global-village.net This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/chill%40global-village.net This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Database choices
On 29 Oct 2007, at 16:52, Mike Schrag wrote: I prefer FrontBase ... It's trivial to setup, runs very well, and it's free. MySQL and PostgreSQL are obvious other choices as well. OpenBase is another obvious choice. One that seems to be somewhat ignored on this list, for no obvious reason. On Oct 29, 2007, at 10:23 AM, Ken Foust wrote: Using Leopard Eclipse WOLips - which is the database of choice. I have heard postgres is the best of the opensource ones. But which one works best with replacement tool for EOModeler? Paul ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Database choices
The reason I don't recommend OpenBase is that there are several very capable free alternatives, but everyone who uses it seems to be very happy with it. I've heard the GUI tools on OpenBase are a lot better than FB's. ms On Oct 29, 2007, at 2:46 PM, Paul Lynch wrote: On 29 Oct 2007, at 16:52, Mike Schrag wrote: I prefer FrontBase ... It's trivial to setup, runs very well, and it's free. MySQL and PostgreSQL are obvious other choices as well. OpenBase is another obvious choice. One that seems to be somewhat ignored on this list, for no obvious reason. On Oct 29, 2007, at 10:23 AM, Ken Foust wrote: Using Leopard Eclipse WOLips - which is the database of choice. I have heard postgres is the best of the opensource ones. But which one works best with replacement tool for EOModeler? Paul ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Database choices
It does appear that MySQL has come along way. We're actually looking at migrating to MySQL from our current OpenBase install for performance issues. Don't really hear much about OpenBase and WO these days ... does anyone still use it in production environments? Michael. On 29-Oct-07, at 2:40 PM, Mike Schrag wrote: I suspect they very likely have compelling performance numbers, but I haven't had time to actually run tests with our real databases on it ... There are graphical MySQL front-ends (whereas FB's is fine, but sort of passable), and honestly there are pkg installs of it also at this point, so it's not a WHOLE lot more than double-click- to-install at this point. Slightly more obnoxious with permissions and users, etc, I suspect. I think FB wins pretty handily in the competition from zero-to-running-database, but how often are you doing that part? In terms of % of time spent, that's only a fraction of your db's life. I just don't want to discount it because a decade ago it sucked. ms On Oct 29, 2007, at 2:22 PM, Chuck Hill wrote: I am sure that you can make it go, but other than clustering, why bother? If you don't need that it seems like a lot of configuration work, research, etc. for what FrontBase gives you with a single click installer. Chuck On Oct 29, 2007, at 10:40 AM, Mike Schrag wrote: You know, I have thought this same thing of MySQL for years, but I think it's because I'm evaluating it based on its feature set from 1998 and not giving it a fair shake. I've read a lot of stories on, for instance, highavailability.com about huge sites that use it. I'm not too keen on the restriction that clustering is in- memory only, but it actually seems like a legitimate database these days (ONLY with InnoDB). It's on my list of things to evaluate more fairly :) ms On Oct 29, 2007, at 1:16 PM, Chuck Hill wrote: I am with Mike on this. If you just need free, FrontBase is hard to beat. If you must have open source, PostgreSQL. MySQL has some nice features, but... I dunno, it is still MySQLToy to me. Chuck On Oct 29, 2007, at 9:52 AM, Mike Schrag wrote: I prefer FrontBase ... It's trivial to setup, runs very well, and it's free. MySQL and PostgreSQL are obvious other choices as well. ms On Oct 29, 2007, at 10:23 AM, Ken Foust wrote: Using Leopard Eclipse WOLips - which is the database of choice. I have heard postgres is the best of the opensource ones. But which one works best with replacement tool for EOModeler? ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/mschrag%40mdimension.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/chill%40global-village.net This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/chill%40global-village.net This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/michael.halliday%40eadiefleet.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Database choices
WRT MySQL, configuring the /etc/my.cnf file for good InnoDB performance is trivial enough. The my.cnf is simply a way of putting all command line launch options in a file actually the format is identical to our beloved WebObjects Properties file. The options are very well documented in the online manual and in the three sample config files provided. About 10 settings and you are done they provide three sample config files. Just pick one as a starting point and go to the innodb section and configure the properties which are documented there with comments. Replication is very easy to setup and works very very reliably since 4.1.XX latest. I use 4.1.XX latest with 5.0.XX latest Connector/J driver. Have not had chance to move production to 5.0.XX yet since no compelling reason for standard WebObjects usage. On Oct 29, 2007, at 2:40 PM, Mike Schrag wrote: I suspect they very likely have compelling performance numbers, but I haven't had time to actually run tests with our real databases on it ... There are graphical MySQL front-ends (whereas FB's is fine, but sort of passable), and honestly there are pkg installs of it also at this point, so it's not a WHOLE lot more than double-click- to-install at this point. Slightly more obnoxious with permissions and users, etc, I suspect. I think FB wins pretty handily in the competition from zero-to-running-database, but how often are you doing that part? In terms of % of time spent, that's only a fraction of your db's life. I just don't want to discount it because a decade ago it sucked. ms On Oct 29, 2007, at 2:22 PM, Chuck Hill wrote: I am sure that you can make it go, but other than clustering, why bother? If you don't need that it seems like a lot of configuration work, research, etc. for what FrontBase gives you with a single click installer. Chuck ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Database choices
We use Openbase in several of our systems. We are very satisfied with it, great support. Cheers, \o/ Nilton Lessa, Moleque de Idéias Educação e Tecnologia Ltda | Phone: 55-21-2710-0178 E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] / \ http://www.moleque.com.br On 29/10/2007, at 16:07, Michael Halliday wrote: It does appear that MySQL has come along way. We're actually looking at migrating to MySQL from our current OpenBase install for performance issues. Don't really hear much about OpenBase and WO these days ... does anyone still use it in production environments? Michael. On 29-Oct-07, at 2:40 PM, Mike Schrag wrote: I suspect they very likely have compelling performance numbers, but I haven't had time to actually run tests with our real databases on it ... There are graphical MySQL front-ends (whereas FB's is fine, but sort of passable), and honestly there are pkg installs of it also at this point, so it's not a WHOLE lot more than double-click-to-install at this point. Slightly more obnoxious with permissions and users, etc, I suspect. I think FB wins pretty handily in the competition from zero-to-running- database, but how often are you doing that part? In terms of % of time spent, that's only a fraction of your db's life. I just don't want to discount it because a decade ago it sucked. ms On Oct 29, 2007, at 2:22 PM, Chuck Hill wrote: I am sure that you can make it go, but other than clustering, why bother? If you don't need that it seems like a lot of configuration work, research, etc. for what FrontBase gives you with a single click installer. Chuck On Oct 29, 2007, at 10:40 AM, Mike Schrag wrote: You know, I have thought this same thing of MySQL for years, but I think it's because I'm evaluating it based on its feature set from 1998 and not giving it a fair shake. I've read a lot of stories on, for instance, highavailability.com about huge sites that use it. I'm not too keen on the restriction that clustering is in-memory only, but it actually seems like a legitimate database these days (ONLY with InnoDB). It's on my list of things to evaluate more fairly :) ms On Oct 29, 2007, at 1:16 PM, Chuck Hill wrote: I am with Mike on this. If you just need free, FrontBase is hard to beat. If you must have open source, PostgreSQL. MySQL has some nice features, but... I dunno, it is still MySQLToy to me. Chuck On Oct 29, 2007, at 9:52 AM, Mike Schrag wrote: I prefer FrontBase ... It's trivial to setup, runs very well, and it's free. MySQL and PostgreSQL are obvious other choices as well. ms On Oct 29, 2007, at 10:23 AM, Ken Foust wrote: Using Leopard Eclipse WOLips - which is the database of choice. I have heard postgres is the best of the opensource ones. But which one works best with replacement tool for EOModeler? ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects- [EMAIL PROTECTED]) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/mschrag% 40mdimension.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/chill% 40global-village.net This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/chill% 40global-village.net This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/ michael.halliday%40eadiefleet.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/nlessa% 40moleque.com.br This email
Re: Database choices
On Oct 29, 2007, at 11:46 AM, Paul Lynch wrote: On 29 Oct 2007, at 16:52, Mike Schrag wrote: I prefer FrontBase ... It's trivial to setup, runs very well, and it's free. MySQL and PostgreSQL are obvious other choices as well. OpenBase is another obvious choice. One that seems to be somewhat ignored on this list, for no obvious reason. It is easy to install and administer and has pretty tools. But it is not free, not SQL92 standard, and doesn't have (last time I used it) multiple column indexes. Chuck On Oct 29, 2007, at 10:23 AM, Ken Foust wrote: Using Leopard Eclipse WOLips - which is the database of choice. I have heard postgres is the best of the opensource ones. But which one works best with replacement tool for EOModeler? Paul ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/chill% 40global-village.net This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Database choices
Hello; Are there not problems still with deferred referential-integrity checking in the MySQL database? I also seem to end up with OutOfMemory's in long batch-processing runs that completely vanished when I switched a system to Postgres. cheers. ___ Andrew Lindesay technology : www.lindesay.co.nz business : www.silvereye.co.nz ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Database choices
On Oct 29, 2007, at 11:40 AM, Mike Schrag wrote: I suspect they very likely have compelling performance numbers, but I haven't had time to actually run tests with our real databases on it ... The best database for a particular application really seems to depend on the size of the database and the exact mix of transactions. Here are some interesting numbers that Georg Tuparev posted a while back: According to my notes, the speed of MySQL start degrading by about 30-40GB load. The number of records did not worsen the situation for simple (one table) fetches, but joins start getting slower. I do not remember the number of records though. At about 100GB MySQL was dead. In contrast FrontBase was not shining up until 40-50GB when it start getting the bests marks. We stopped our loads at 1.7TB. At that stage only FrontBase and Oracle were working normally and PostgresSQL was struggling (later version of it work much better, but we never tested them extensively). With 1.7 TB and 470M records in the most populated table (about 300 tables in total) FrontBase was doing on average 30% better then Oracle. If you count price, support, and maintainability, FB is probably two orders of magnitude better then Oracle. I believe only the current version of PosSQL should be considered seriously ... but the support FB gives outweighs the small price we have to pay for it. There are graphical MySQL front-ends (whereas FB's is fine, but sort of passable), and honestly there are pkg installs of it also at this point, so it's not a WHOLE lot more than double-click-to- install at this point. Slightly more obnoxious with permissions and users, etc, I suspect. I think FB wins pretty handily in the competition from zero-to-running-database, but how often are you doing that part? In terms of % of time spent, that's only a fraction of your db's life. I just don't want to discount it because a decade ago it sucked. All good points. If it was not for the clustering / replication, I probably would not look at. When you add that need, it is one of the contenders. Chuck On Oct 29, 2007, at 2:22 PM, Chuck Hill wrote: I am sure that you can make it go, but other than clustering, why bother? If you don't need that it seems like a lot of configuration work, research, etc. for what FrontBase gives you with a single click installer. Chuck On Oct 29, 2007, at 10:40 AM, Mike Schrag wrote: You know, I have thought this same thing of MySQL for years, but I think it's because I'm evaluating it based on its feature set from 1998 and not giving it a fair shake. I've read a lot of stories on, for instance, highavailability.com about huge sites that use it. I'm not too keen on the restriction that clustering is in-memory only, but it actually seems like a legitimate database these days (ONLY with InnoDB). It's on my list of things to evaluate more fairly :) ms On Oct 29, 2007, at 1:16 PM, Chuck Hill wrote: I am with Mike on this. If you just need free, FrontBase is hard to beat. If you must have open source, PostgreSQL. MySQL has some nice features, but... I dunno, it is still MySQLToy to me. Chuck On Oct 29, 2007, at 9:52 AM, Mike Schrag wrote: I prefer FrontBase ... It's trivial to setup, runs very well, and it's free. MySQL and PostgreSQL are obvious other choices as well. ms On Oct 29, 2007, at 10:23 AM, Ken Foust wrote: Using Leopard Eclipse WOLips - which is the database of choice. I have heard postgres is the best of the opensource ones. But which one works best with replacement tool for EOModeler? ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/mschrag% 40mdimension.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/chill% 40global-village.net This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/chill% 40global-village.net This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall
Re: Database choices
It looks like Frontbase is something interesting to look at:) Actually I'm setting up a new server for test purpose so I'll be happy to try something else than MySQL. What are the tools available like CocoaMySQL but for Frontbase? GUI front end I mean:) Frontbase manager? Is there any official support for Leopard (for both the database and the gui tool)? Thanks Xavier I prefer FrontBase ... It's trivial to setup, runs very well, and it's free. MySQL and PostgreSQL are obvious other choices as well. ms On Oct 29, 2007, at 10:23 AM, Ken Foust wrote: Using Leopard Eclipse WOLips - which is the database of choice. I have heard postgres is the best of the opensource ones. But which one works best with replacement tool for EOModeler? ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/mschrag% 40mdimension.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/webobjects% 40anazys.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Database choices
I've been using OpenBase since I began doing WO development. That's not long but I can say that I have been happy with it. If you're in a position where a commercial product is an option then I think they provide some unique and forward-thnking features. It installs with some cool stored procedures e.g. querying remote databases and for syncing with OpenDirectory or an LDAP data source. And like FrontBase it is very easy to install and get running. They do have a free solo license but I'm not completely sure what the restrictions are. Tim On Oct 29, 2007, at 12:06 PM, Mike Schrag wrote: The reason I don't recommend OpenBase is that there are several very capable free alternatives, but everyone who uses it seems to be very happy with it. I've heard the GUI tools on OpenBase are a lot better than FB's. ms On Oct 29, 2007, at 2:46 PM, Paul Lynch wrote: On 29 Oct 2007, at 16:52, Mike Schrag wrote: I prefer FrontBase ... It's trivial to setup, runs very well, and it's free. MySQL and PostgreSQL are obvious other choices as well. OpenBase is another obvious choice. One that seems to be somewhat ignored on this list, for no obvious reason. On Oct 29, 2007, at 10:23 AM, Ken Foust wrote: Using Leopard Eclipse WOLips - which is the database of choice. I have heard postgres is the best of the opensource ones. But which one works best with replacement tool for EOModeler? Paul ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/lists%40thetimmy.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Database choices
FrontBaseManager is the GUI tool for FrontBase ... It works fine for most operations, but it's not great. There's also the Java version of it (which I don't use FrontBaseJManager, I think is the name). I don't know if they're explicitly certified on Leopard, but I have not had any problems with it so far. On Oct 29, 2007, at 6:22 PM, WO Dev wrote: It looks like Frontbase is something interesting to look at:) Actually I'm setting up a new server for test purpose so I'll be happy to try something else than MySQL. What are the tools available like CocoaMySQL but for Frontbase? GUI front end I mean:) Frontbase manager? Is there any official support for Leopard (for both the database and the gui tool)? Thanks Xavier I prefer FrontBase ... It's trivial to setup, runs very well, and it's free. MySQL and PostgreSQL are obvious other choices as well. ms On Oct 29, 2007, at 10:23 AM, Ken Foust wrote: Using Leopard Eclipse WOLips - which is the database of choice. I have heard postgres is the best of the opensource ones. But which one works best with replacement tool for EOModeler? ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/mschrag%40mdimension.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/webobjects%40anazys.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Database choices
MySQL is a lot better than it was 10 years ago, but it still has a habit of playing fast and loose with certain types of input validation, silently discarding or changing certain types of data and allowing invalid queries. It still has a brain damaged query optimiser and the query analyser is next to useless compared to many other databases. Their clustering is still a poor mans solution, and doesn't scale to large databases. That said, we still use it for several, non WO, systems and provided you know the long list of caveats and avoid the issues they pose it works very well as a basic db. I really, really like PostgreSQL, it has almost everything you could possible need, save for a few very advanced features only available in top dollar systems, the query planner is extremely good, and the various inbuilt analysis features are very useful, but what it really lacks is a solid, two phase commit, clustering solution. FirebirdSQL is actually extremely good for something with such a small footprint, however it lacks deferred constrain validation, which makes it a little difficult to utilise constraints fully with WO, but there are people using it with WO. It also lacks a non- commercial clustering solution. It is also very resilient to crashes and unexpected shutdown. I would rank it higher than MySQL. Frontbase is just rock solid, a perfect match for WO. It's clustering is the best I have seen. Unfortunately it flies below the radar of most people, but then so does WO. Until postgresql gets a solid clustering solution, frontbase comes out in front in my opinion. None of them are bad choices. On 30/10/2007, at 3:40 AM, Mike Schrag wrote: You know, I have thought this same thing of MySQL for years, but I think it's because I'm evaluating it based on its feature set from 1998 and not giving it a fair shake. I've read a lot of stories on, for instance, highavailability.com about huge sites that use it. I'm not too keen on the restriction that clustering is in- memory only, but it actually seems like a legitimate database these days (ONLY with InnoDB). It's on my list of things to evaluate more fairly :) ms On Oct 29, 2007, at 1:16 PM, Chuck Hill wrote: I am with Mike on this. If you just need free, FrontBase is hard to beat. If you must have open source, PostgreSQL. MySQL has some nice features, but... I dunno, it is still MySQLToy to me. Chuck On Oct 29, 2007, at 9:52 AM, Mike Schrag wrote: I prefer FrontBase ... It's trivial to setup, runs very well, and it's free. MySQL and PostgreSQL are obvious other choices as well. ms On Oct 29, 2007, at 10:23 AM, Ken Foust wrote: Using Leopard Eclipse WOLips - which is the database of choice. I have heard postgres is the best of the opensource ones. But which one works best with replacement tool for EOModeler? ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/mschrag% 40mdimension.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/chill% 40global-village.net This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/qdolan% 40gmail.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Database choices
On Oct 29, 2007, at 4:01 PM, Q wrote: MySQL is a lot better than it was 10 years ago, but it still has a habit of playing fast and loose with certain types of input validation, silently discarding or changing certain types of data and allowing invalid queries. It still has a brain damaged query optimiser and the query analyser is next to useless compared to many other databases. Their clustering is still a poor mans solution, and doesn't scale to large databases. That said, we still use it for several, non WO, systems and provided you know the long list of caveats and avoid the issues they pose it works very well as a basic db. I really, really like PostgreSQL, it has almost everything you could possible need, save for a few very advanced features only available in top dollar systems, the query planner is extremely good, and the various inbuilt analysis features are very useful, but what it really lacks is a solid, two phase commit, clustering solution. FirebirdSQL is actually extremely good for something with such a small footprint, however it lacks deferred constrain validation, which makes it a little difficult to utilise constraints fully with WO, but there are people using it with WO. It also lacks a non- commercial clustering solution. It is also very resilient to crashes and unexpected shutdown. I would rank it higher than MySQL. Interesting. I used Interbase years ago with Delphi and I really liked it. MS SQL also also deferred constraint validation (which is NOT a vote for MS SQL!!!). I added a DB context class to Wonder that orders the operations to maintain FK containt validity. So far it has handled everything I have thrown at it. I don't see why it would not work with Firebird as well. Chuck Frontbase is just rock solid, a perfect match for WO. It's clustering is the best I have seen. Unfortunately it flies below the radar of most people, but then so does WO. Until postgresql gets a solid clustering solution, frontbase comes out in front in my opinion. None of them are bad choices. On 30/10/2007, at 3:40 AM, Mike Schrag wrote: You know, I have thought this same thing of MySQL for years, but I think it's because I'm evaluating it based on its feature set from 1998 and not giving it a fair shake. I've read a lot of stories on, for instance, highavailability.com about huge sites that use it. I'm not too keen on the restriction that clustering is in- memory only, but it actually seems like a legitimate database these days (ONLY with InnoDB). It's on my list of things to evaluate more fairly :) ms On Oct 29, 2007, at 1:16 PM, Chuck Hill wrote: I am with Mike on this. If you just need free, FrontBase is hard to beat. If you must have open source, PostgreSQL. MySQL has some nice features, but... I dunno, it is still MySQLToy to me. Chuck On Oct 29, 2007, at 9:52 AM, Mike Schrag wrote: I prefer FrontBase ... It's trivial to setup, runs very well, and it's free. MySQL and PostgreSQL are obvious other choices as well. ms On Oct 29, 2007, at 10:23 AM, Ken Foust wrote: Using Leopard Eclipse WOLips - which is the database of choice. I have heard postgres is the best of the opensource ones. But which one works best with replacement tool for EOModeler? ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/mschrag% 40mdimension.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/chill% 40global-village.net This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/qdolan% 40gmail.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/chill% 40global-village.net This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their
Re: Database choices
+ has vacuum full, to shrink the footprint of the db on disk in FB, you might want to take a look at: OPTIMIZE DATABASE; OPTIMIZE DISK ZONE disk zone name | DEFAULT; (see Page 115 of the FB User Guide for more info) ... Maybe will help? + query planner analysis tools (explain analyze select ...) Yes! FB has a query plan output also, but it's worthless. It's totally cryptic and doesn't nearly report enough information about what it did. My kingdom for them to make this better and on par with most of the competition. + backup (backup sucks with PostgreSQL and is amazingly easy with FrontBase) Can't you just pg_dump your tables? Or is that not transaction safe? And just for completeness, I always have strange problems with FB Backup/Restore -- For one, they're not endian-safe, so you can't backup and restore across architectures, which just sucks. For another, it seems to segfault under odd circumstances for me when I try to move across machines, even of the same architecture. I write backup and also write all output just to be safe (write all output is actually not transactionally safe on FB, but I like to have it as a just in case in the event of an emergency). The other thing is that they can't just give me a damn SQL dump. It's always in some goofy format whether you write all output or write backup. I'm not sure why they don't offer this route when everyone else does. It makes migrating across databases substantially more complicated, which is maybe why they do it, who knows. + fulltext indexing (LookSee) Another wish I have is if I add a fulltext index, that I could tell it to make '%whatever%' queries use LookSee so I don't have to resort to proprietary SQL to do it. I know WHY they don't do this, but it would just be a little nicer. I always mean to write a FullTextQualifier in Wonder that will turn into the proper SQL for a full-text search in the various databases, but I never seem get around to it. So, it depends on what you need. If you want a database server, that runs out of the box with nearly perfect backup and clustering support - get FrontBase. If you need to tweak a LOT of things to get the best performance out of a large and complex database - I'd use PostgreSQL. Yeah I would agree with this, too ... And we mix and match. The other one is that PG has a much better query optimizer. If you ever do a left outer join in FB, you may find that under certain circumstances performance really sucks. We had to switch one of our apps over to PG which handed FB its ass in query performance with a complex query over a fairly large dataset. For straight WO, this turns out to not matter much, because WO tends to generate fairly simple queries, but if you ever have particular complex custom SQL fetches, you might run into it. ms ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Database choices
On 29.10.2007, at 17:01, Q wrote: Until postgresql gets a solid clustering solution, frontbase comes out in front in my opinion. Depends a bit on your workload and your requirements. Where PostgreSQL shines: + insert speed + indexing speed (helps inserting) + has vacuum full, to shrink the footprint of the db on disk + has a lots of parameters you can tweak to get the best out of it + the query planner is extremely good, even for very complex queries + support on the mailing list is very good + creating indexes for case-sensitive or case-insensitive queries + query planner analysis tools (explain analyze select ...) Where FrontBase shines: + ease of use / installation + backup (backup sucks with PostgreSQL and is amazingly easy with FrontBase) + clustering, replication + support if you get a support plan (and without a plan if you found a real bug) + database encryption + JDBC driver (re-connecting, server fail-over and so on) + in memory caching for tables / indexes + fulltext indexing (LookSee) The remaining problem I had with FrontBase is the sometimes slow inserts on tables with not so many columns, but a lot of rows (over 5 millions at the moment) and a 24 byte primary key. It seems that maintaining the pk index is very expensive for that kind of column. Maybe a long would be better here. Also the integrated select unique can only return 32 bit integers, not longs like the PostgreSQL sequences can. Not necessarily a problem if you can use e.g. the Wonder ERXLongPrimaryKeyFactory for that. Also adding columns in large tables often ends up in table bloat, which is REALLY hard to get rid of as I can't reduce it's size on disk, even if you don't provide a default value or so (Is that still the case?). So, it depends on what you need. If you want a database server, that runs out of the box with nearly perfect backup and clustering support - get FrontBase. If you need to tweak a LOT of things to get the best performance out of a large and complex database - I'd use PostgreSQL. To put it that way: I love to have both databases around as I can use both their strengths. cug ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Database choices
I am not a heavy user of database, so my 2 cents here could possibly useful to those light-weight users of DB in FrontBase and MySQL. Typically, only my 5% or less time is spent on DB once it is set up. These are not about the detailed features e.g. performance etc but more from a user's experience perspective. Being the users of FrontBase for quite some time, I deployed a few FB Starter licenses on site and they are stable. Those are FB v3.x. And FB Enterprise cost at that time was nearly USD40k(to-check). However, the FB Enterprise is FOC now. So it is good to install, try and deploy it. Installation is even much easier now than 3.x. Note that the java sdk has to be 1.5 and above for FB v4.x. MYSQL v4.x seemed did not fix well in Windows due to some JDBC connector problem. Until ver 5.x, this issue was resolved. So for those who would like to try, I suggest MYSQL v5.x is a good way to go. That goes to its tools too. Personally, agreed that configuration with MYSQL, is easy via my.cnf. As a simple user of MYSQL like myself, configuration to bring it up and replication are reasonably easy. The documentation is fairly complete and resourceful to the deployment. More importantly, it provides a good chance to edit the table structure and dump them back when there is a change in EOModel. That saves a lot of time for DB migration. Some may not aware that MYSQL is not free! The pricing for InnoDB and MyISAM are different, being InnoDB is slightly more expensive. FrontBase, AFAIK, is still FOC for all licenses including Enterprise version. Cheers Cheong Hee -- Message: 4 Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 15:27:29 -0400 From: Kieran Kelleher [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Database choices To: Mike Schrag [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: WebObjects Dev webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed WRT MySQL, configuring the /etc/my.cnf file for good InnoDB performance is trivial enough. The my.cnf is simply a way of putting all command line launch options in a file actually the format is identical to our beloved WebObjects Properties file. The options are very well documented in the online manual and in the three sample config files provided. About 10 settings and you are done they provide three sample config files. Just pick one as a starting point and go to the innodb section and configure the properties which are documented there with comments. Replication is very easy to setup and works very very reliably since 4.1.XX latest. I use 4.1.XX latest with 5.0.XX latest Connector/J driver. Have not had chance to move production to 5.0.XX yet since no compelling reason for standard WebObjects usage. ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Database choices
On Oct 29, 2007, at 4:33 PM, Mike Schrag wrote: The reason I don't recommend OpenBase is that there are several very capable free alternatives, but everyone who uses it seems to be very happy with it. I've heard the GUI tools on OpenBase are a lot better than FB's. The following is from the openbase's What's New PDF file in their latest 10.0.8 version which works in Leopard. WebObjects OpenBase 10 includes a new plugin and WO qualifier objects, allowing you to easily perform complex sub-queries inside your WebObjects applications. Schema synchroni- zation functions allow users to easily manage WebObjects schemas. New licensing al- lows for free deployment of WebObjects applications. --- Ricardo J. Parada ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Database choices
On Oct 29, 2007, at 2:19 PM, Paul Lynch wrote: I prefer FrontBase ... It's trivial to setup, runs very well, and it's free. MySQL and PostgreSQL are obvious other choices as well. OpenBase is another obvious choice. One that seems to be somewhat ignored on this list, for no obvious reason. I'm one of those who loves openbase. That's the one I feel the most comfortable with and find it extremely easy to use. Version 10 has a free license which may fit many people's needs. Ricardo J. Parada ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Database choices
I have been using FB since it was in beta, and never ever had a single problem. It is my dev base of choice. It is very fast, scales very well; and I like the slick UI and the sql92 compliance. For those whom might have the need, the FB support is the most responsive I've ever seen. Oracle 10g is very impressive while the RAC performs a lot, even with a high ratio of write/read; of course, not the same universe of pricing and so on. FB works with a few clicks in a package installer, and I forget it: just works. Christian Trotobas http://intellicore.net Le 29 oct. 07 à 21:29, Chuck Hill a écrit : On Oct 29, 2007, at 11:40 AM, Mike Schrag wrote: I suspect they very likely have compelling performance numbers, but I haven't had time to actually run tests with our real databases on it ... The best database for a particular application really seems to depend on the size of the database and the exact mix of transactions. Here are some interesting numbers that Georg Tuparev posted a while back: According to my notes, the speed of MySQL start degrading by about 30-40GB load. The number of records did not worsen the situation for simple (one table) fetches, but joins start getting slower. I do not remember the number of records though. At about 100GB MySQL was dead. In contrast FrontBase was not shining up until 40-50GB when it start getting the bests marks. We stopped our loads at 1.7TB. At that stage only FrontBase and Oracle were working normally and PostgresSQL was struggling (later version of it work much better, but we never tested them extensively). With 1.7 TB and 470M records in the most populated table (about 300 tables in total) FrontBase was doing on average 30% better then Oracle. If you count price, support, and maintainability, FB is probably two orders of magnitude better then Oracle. I believe only the current version of PosSQL should be considered seriously ... but the support FB gives outweighs the small price we have to pay for it. There are graphical MySQL front-ends (whereas FB's is fine, but sort of passable), and honestly there are pkg installs of it also at this point, so it's not a WHOLE lot more than double-click- to-install at this point. Slightly more obnoxious with permissions and users, etc, I suspect. I think FB wins pretty handily in the competition from zero-to-running-database, but how often are you doing that part? In terms of % of time spent, that's only a fraction of your db's life. I just don't want to discount it because a decade ago it sucked. All good points. If it was not for the clustering / replication, I probably would not look at. When you add that need, it is one of the contenders. Chuck On Oct 29, 2007, at 2:22 PM, Chuck Hill wrote: I am sure that you can make it go, but other than clustering, why bother? If you don't need that it seems like a lot of configuration work, research, etc. for what FrontBase gives you with a single click installer. Chuck On Oct 29, 2007, at 10:40 AM, Mike Schrag wrote: You know, I have thought this same thing of MySQL for years, but I think it's because I'm evaluating it based on its feature set from 1998 and not giving it a fair shake. I've read a lot of stories on, for instance, highavailability.com about huge sites that use it. I'm not too keen on the restriction that clustering is in-memory only, but it actually seems like a legitimate database these days (ONLY with InnoDB). It's on my list of things to evaluate more fairly :) ms On Oct 29, 2007, at 1:16 PM, Chuck Hill wrote: I am with Mike on this. If you just need free, FrontBase is hard to beat. If you must have open source, PostgreSQL. MySQL has some nice features, but... I dunno, it is still MySQLToy to me. Chuck On Oct 29, 2007, at 9:52 AM, Mike Schrag wrote: I prefer FrontBase ... It's trivial to setup, runs very well, and it's free. MySQL and PostgreSQL are obvious other choices as well. ms On Oct 29, 2007, at 10:23 AM, Ken Foust wrote: Using Leopard Eclipse WOLips - which is the database of choice. I have heard postgres is the best of the opensource ones. But which one works best with replacement tool for EOModeler? ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects- [EMAIL PROTECTED]) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/mschrag% 40mdimension.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/chill% 40global-village.net This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Practical
Re: Database choices
On 10/29/07, Guido Neitzer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 29.10.2007, at 12:38, Pascal Robert wrote: And for MySQL: as long as they don't change their policy and not do API changes or major changes to the behaviour of the system inside a minor version tree (so you can't get updates inside the minor version without possibly breaking stuff in your app) which happened in version 4, MySQL is not an option for me. Maybe they changed that, but I'm conservative and still don't like it ... have a long memory. Agreed I've hade several problems due to this in the course doing upgrade with the 4.x MySQL releases. For exemple they made (IMHO gratuitious) incompatible changes to the mysqldump command line tool which is used to export data so that in can later be mported back into an upgraded DB server. I've spent night debugging those changes and then processing Gigabytes of data to be able to migrate this data from one version of the server to a later version. No fun. = tmk = ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Database choices
On Oct 29, 2007, at 9:37 PM, Ricardo Parada wrote: On Oct 29, 2007, at 4:33 PM, Mike Schrag wrote: The reason I don't recommend OpenBase is that there are several very capable free alternatives, but everyone who uses it seems to be very happy with it. I've heard the GUI tools on OpenBase are a lot better than FB's. The following is from the openbase's What's New PDF file in their latest 10.0.8 version which works in Leopard. WebObjects OpenBase 10 includes a new plugin and WO qualifier objects, allowing you to easily perform complex sub-queries inside your WebObjects applications. That, in itself, is worthy of a download. Schema synchroni- zation functions allow users to easily manage WebObjects schemas. New licensing al- lows for free deployment of WebObjects applications. Very interesting news, thanks for passing that on. Chuck -- Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Database choices
On Oct 29, 2007, at 4:33 PM, Michael Halliday wrote: It does appear that MySQL has come along way. We're actually looking at migrating to MySQL from our current OpenBase install for performance issues. Don't really hear much about OpenBase and WO these days ... does anyone still use it in production environments? I use it for a WO app that I wrote for my sister's business looong time ago. She uses it on a daily basis and has been accumulating valuable data for years. I wouldn't qualify the app as one of those high traffic sites since it's only used by one person every day. But I know OpenBase is a very serious database for production use. And so easy to set up if you and great WO support if you ask me. Both my web app and OpenBase 10.0.8 are running on a little Mac mini. Works great. I've used it since the early versions of OpenBase. It saves me a daily backup of the database on an external disk, which by the way saved me big time when the hard disk on the Mac mini died. And the backup was as simple as specifying where I wanted the backup to be, what time to make the backup and click OK in the OpenBase Manager. It has tools for synchronizing eomodels with your database schema. But I have not used that since I wrote the app long ago. It also has some EOQualifier classes for doing IN queries but I've never used any of that either. Anyways, in my opinion OpenBase works great. And if your app ever grows and you need a more serious license and want support then you can buy the license that suits your needs. And I think OpenBase support has always been excellent. :-) ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
