Re: [Wikimedia-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you
On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 10:13 PM, Philippe Beaudette pbeaude...@wikimedia.org wrote: On Aug 11, 2014, at 7:13 PM, Todd Allen toddmal...@gmail.com wrote: like suppression, it should be used only by stewards and community approved functionaries. I'm confused. Are you suggesting that suppression is not used by staff? Super protection can be used by staff, and was. Suppression can be used by staff as well, and regularly is. (For instance, if legal were to ask me to suppress an edit, under court order). It (suppression) is not a tool we use without careful consideration, but it is one we use. I should think the same would be true of superprotection- it's not to be used lightly but it is a tool in our belt. Philippe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe I think we're comparing apples to anvils here. Handling a legal issue using suppression (or protection, or now superprotection) is a far cry from using it to resolve a dispute to one's preferred outcome. That is, if nothing else, a massive expansion of what's normally been acceptable as an Office action, which have historically (and to my mind, properly) been reserved for cases that could put us in severe legal jeopardy if not immediately addressed. Those cases, while rare, are an appropriate use. Standard full protection along with necessary suppressions, however, along with clear warnings indicating what's going on, has always been sufficient to handle those few cases. Superprotection wasn't designed with vanishingly rare Office legal actions that are already quite adequately handled in mind, and I think all of us here know that. It's another attempt to force unwanted changes, because apparently We'll desysop you for implementing your community's decisions when we won't! wasn't quite ham-fisted enough. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you
FWIW, Lila's comments were made before the start of this email thread about superprotect. Pine On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 11:53 PM, Pine W wiki.p...@gmail.com wrote: Forwarding comments from Lila from https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ALilaTretikovdiff=9454366oldid=9339030 All -- Thank you for your comments, criticism, support and advice on software that you've collected in the RfCs. I agree that we need to improve both our process and our software. MV is a great feature to use as a testbed for those improvements. I also believe it represents a good foundation that we should improve together. We are not going to make any hasty changes, but we will will get back to you on: * Next steps (in the next 2-3 weeks) * Process improvements * Software changes * Policy clarification (deployment, RFCs, reverts, etc.) We love your feedback and your support. Thank you. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
[Wikimedia-l] VisualEditor Office Hours for August and September
Hi all, this is just a reminder that the next VE office hour is on Thursday 14 August at 900 UTC, in case you want to add it to your calendar. Hope to see you there, Elitre (WMF) ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Options for the German Wikipedia
On 12 August 2014 02:39, svetlana svetl...@fastmail.com.au wrote: There needs to be a central place, like the Wikimedia blog, but dedicated to tech things - actively announcing everything WM ENGINEERING are doing, both in products and in core. There is. It's called the monthly report. See here for July's for example: *https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Engineering/Report/2014/July https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Engineering/Report/2014/July* -- Dan Garry Associate Product Manager, Mobile Apps Wikimedia Foundation ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you
Erik, I'll be writing a longer post on the Meta RFC later, but can you confirm whether the idea is to superprotect key interface pages like [[Mediawiki:common.js]] on a permanent basis, or will this feature only be used to lock pages temporarily in the case of wheel warring or other circumstances like what happened on de.wp? Thanks, Craig Franklin On 10 August 2014 23:27, Erik Moeller e...@wikimedia.org wrote: Hi folks, Admins are currently given broad leeway to customize the user experience for all users, including addition of site-wide JS, CSS, etc. These are important capabilities of the wiki that have been used for many clearly beneficial purposes. In the long run, we will want to apply a code review process to these changes as with any other deployed code, but for now the system works as it is and we have no intent to remove this capability. However, we've clarified in a number of venues that use of the MediaWiki: namespace to disable site features is unacceptable. If such a conflict arises, we're prepared to revoke permissions if required. This protection level provides an additional path to manage these situations by preventing edits to the relevant pages (we're happy to help apply any urgent edits) until a particular situation has calmed down. Thanks, Erik -- Erik Möller VP of Engineering and Product Development, Wikimedia Foundation ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you
Straniu, Jimbo's comments in his keynote about forking concerned encouraging competent editors who can't work cooperatively with other people to fork in a way that would be better for everyone in the long run. I don't believe this disappointing confrontation between the WMF and volunteers were what Jimbo had in mind. Pine On Aug 12, 2014 1:44 AM, Strainu strain...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Gerard, Some answers (in a random order). 2014-08-11 12:20 GMT+03:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com: You know our projects, you know our licenses. If you, the communitydo not like what you have, you can fork. At Wikimania forking and leaving the community was very much discussed. Watch Jimbo's presentation for instance, he may be aghast that I quote him here but in his state of the Wiki he made it abundantly clear that it is your option to stay or go. I gave up watching Jimbo's keynotes a few years ago, as I would invariably get pissed off. So, should we understand that the vast ammounts of money and resources spent on editor retention are a waste of our money? I sincerely hope this is a heat-of-the-moment argument, just like the one about closing de.wp. Hoi, Code review should be a strictly technical process surely. However the community CANNOT decide on everything. Agreed. How about letting the WMF decide for anonymous users and the community decide for logged-in users? Presumably, the logged-in users have access to a large panel of options and can make up their own mind if they disagree with the consensus. Of course, discussions should not disappear because of such a separation, but even become more active and hopefully less aggressive. When you are in those conversations you realise that many complications are considered; it is not easy nor obvious. NB there is not one community, there are many with often completely diverging opinions. Technically it is not possible to always keep backward compatibility / functionality. We are not backward we need to stay contemporary. As a software engineer in a publicly traded company, I understand the reasoning behind more than 90% of the decisions made by the Engineering staff - and this worries me terribly, because they *don't* work for a company. Their objectives and approaches should be different. There are three main wiki-use-cases that should receive similar levels of attention: * reading * basic editing * advanced editing The first two receive a lot of love, but the third one not so much, it's even hindered by initiatives designed for the first two. I'm not saying that we should keep backwards compatibility forever, but since the WMF wants to deploy stuff early in order to get feedback, it should begin by offering it as a beta (they do that now), then, when reaching a decent level of stability, deploy it for anonymous users and opt-in users and only when it reaches feature-parity with the feature being replaced should it be pushed for everybody (keeping an opt-out feature for some time - months or a couple of years). Take for instance the media viewer: the current version is useless for editors, as it has basically no controls visible by default (without scrolling). The future version, presented at Wikimania, has a lot more stuff visible on the first screen, making it much easier to use for editing. I believe that the media viewer should have been kept as opt-in for logged in users until this future version arrives. Strainu ___ Wikitech-l mailing list wikitec...@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Options for the German Wikipedia
Hi, On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 8:44 AM, Dan Garry dga...@wikimedia.org wrote: On 12 August 2014 02:39, svetlana svetl...@fastmail.com.au wrote: There needs to be a central place, like the Wikimedia blog, but dedicated to tech things - actively announcing everything WM ENGINEERING are doing, both in products and in core. There is. It's called the monthly report. See here for July's for example: *https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Engineering/Report/2014/July Just a small note: The July report is still being drafted; the latest published report is the one for June: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Engineering/Report/2014/June . My apologies for forgetting to add the draft template when I created the page. To see the latest status update of all current activities* at any given time, see the Wikimedia engineering status dashboard: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Engineering/Dashboard [*] Except for those documented on other wikis, like the work of the Operations team. -- Guillaume Paumier ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
[Wikimedia-l] Odder on moderation?!
Hi, Has Odder / Tomasz Kozłowski been put on moderation? I'm informed his emails sent to this list havent come through to the list for nearly 24 hrs, and he has not been notified of having been put on any moderation, and the moderators havent responded to queries sent directly, and havent actioned these moderated emails (deny or approve, doesnt matter) for almost a day. -- John Vandenberg ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Odder on moderation?!
On 12/08/14 11:23, John Mark Vandenberg wrote: Hi, Has Odder / Tomasz Kozłowski been put on moderation? I'm informed his emails sent to this list havent come through to the list for nearly 24 hrs, and he has not been notified of having been put on any moderation, and the moderators havent responded to queries sent directly, and havent actioned these moderated emails (deny or approve, doesnt matter) for almost a day. Yes, according to the mailman admin interface, he's on moderation. There are no pending moderator requests for wikimedia-l. -- Tim Starling ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Odder on moderation?!
Yes, I temporarily placed Tomasz on moderation after his personal attacks on the list. I apologize for apparently not making this clear enough with my on-list warning. I spent most of yesterday afternoon traveling home from Wikimania, and have not seen any messages from him since. As the admin queue is empty, I can only conclude that they were dealt with by another person with access to the administrator interface. Austin On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 11:23 AM, John Mark Vandenberg jay...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, Has Odder / Tomasz Kozłowski been put on moderation? I'm informed his emails sent to this list havent come through to the list for nearly 24 hrs, and he has not been notified of having been put on any moderation, and the moderators havent responded to queries sent directly, and havent actioned these moderated emails (deny or approve, doesnt matter) for almost a day. -- John Vandenberg ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Odder on moderation?!
On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 12:48 PM, Fæ fae...@gmail.com wrote: Current working practices on lists include never being informed that it happened and never getting a reply to a polite request of why the moderation is in place, along with there being no possibility of appeal or timely review. More complex issues, such as moderators taking action on participants with whom they are actively involved in disputes, are not covered by any current guideline. I do have to dispute this. While I did not explicitly say I have set your moderation bit, and in retrospect should have, I believe that there's a fairly obvious conclusion to be drawn when a list administrator tells you that your behavior is unacceptable and your next message is not immediately posted. What I take the most issue with is that, contrary to what John has said, I did not receive a single request—polite or otherwise—from Tomasz directly, or (so far as gmail's search function can determine) any inquiry at all regarding moderation prior to John's e-mail to the list. The matter was clarified within minutes of it being brought to my attention. I don't know what, if not that, constitutes timely review for you, Fae. Austin ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Options for the German Wikipedia
Does either of you or anyone else see a valid reason to deny this seemingly reasonable and considered request? It's quite obvious that hacks to achieve the same ends are far from ideal. Why not simply disable MediaViewer by default on the German Wikipedia, as requested? In my view, the technical configuration and user experience of WMF wikis are areas where community discussion is advisory rather than decisive. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Odder on moderation?!
I'm an administrator for a few lists and personally I feel you are being far far too generic in saying lists are not managed correctly. A process is not broken here just a users understanding. Document don't argue regarding processes. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you
On 12.08.2014 02:26, svetlana wrote: If we accept the policy in principle, I don't care who enforces such policy, that be community or WMF. Such policy does not go against community entirely, unless WMF shows a will to reject community patches related to issues which community finds important. Whether or not this is the case, I don't care; it's a website in their hands and they're welcome to shut it off without notice, or to experiment at leisure. svetlana Whoever believes that an administration of a crowdsourcing website can do whatever they want just because they are running the website should recollect what recently happened to Internet Brands and Wikitravel. Cheers Yaroslav ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Odder on moderation?!
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 12/08/14 20:23, John Mark Vandenberg wrote: Hi, Has Odder / Tomasz Kozłowski been put on moderation? Yes. I'm informed his emails sent to this list havent come through to the list for nearly 24 hrs, and he has not been notified of having been put on any moderation, and the moderators havent responded to queries sent directly, and havent actioned these moderated emails (deny or approve, doesnt matter) for almost a day. I approved one. I discarded one as it had no new content. Regards, Richard. - -- rich...@ames.id.au GPG key ID: 95C53E98 GPG key fingerprint: 4562 56B6 33CB CCB1 B9B7 529E 8BE5 076D 95C5 3E98 The greatest collection of shared knowledge in history. Help Wikipedia, participate now: https://en.wikipedia.org/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1 iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJT6gLyAAoJEIvlB22VxT6Y7DIP/RYBV0M2HFwk/rkV+g6g+iyK NXmSwVGT4E48OJk+aR3+0i297YpJHTclJ33CSzXWrBLGTdGJRZrCfvf1VAE551zk XblIpSa954lvHvih1UFoXqHwDUOBSgIe2T+VkoHDgo5GmogZ/e132SXdkTcLKhxy D+qFKea2KXh38jviPdoX1j8im0k/fdrMdXWs/YPc3QXMUfhXY50TgWBkEue9H8fA qCHBrHvx35AMQSCc7nOnadtCMBwloQ6f67j5qI4goMc9mAIKtCCNREFXQV2ijtPE 6PWniYGB8vTN7jL3ey65RmkFWX6Tm+KSt5tEi5wu2yOYI8Fc9+hoo7tAlEwyZr3+ GogqAvEOOU+gHYVNNizyhd7DFCwJH5l+1uJEbcLXtXS8O02af/isrydnRY0AaqHg KYgIeLSY27k44P3rMucSAEF9eqxAernS5VGWembct/fuusIvHUKJs4qgVUwSCQkC H0g/HlHu7m7L2SCWMqjF4BZLcEj1UAyQ5DRi+yKPmiWK5Ay/ikZBUJCquwTBqhiK hQ2GRxZ2yJXdQ8PXTYH/E4CDFDXzBYou9Sxj99MgQul1s1RaQGE9LxUEJ4Gtodgf 50GjKQmDt83G6l81E0js5sMo5CzjU6hFRBL0+JKGQQddFOlAQ9W199S53vwE0NtV IK8GmZ3vCU550zD8I8Ma =HuKD -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you
As one has been there, done that, I would like to point out that there is an order of magnitude difference between Internet Brands and WMF. Cheers, Peter -Original Message- From: wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Yaroslav M. Blanter Sent: 12 August 2014 02:00 PM To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you On 12.08.2014 02:26, svetlana wrote: If we accept the policy in principle, I don't care who enforces such policy, that be community or WMF. Such policy does not go against community entirely, unless WMF shows a will to reject community patches related to issues which community finds important. Whether or not this is the case, I don't care; it's a website in their hands and they're welcome to shut it off without notice, or to experiment at leisure. svetlana Whoever believes that an administration of a crowdsourcing website can do whatever they want just because they are running the website should recollect what recently happened to Internet Brands and Wikitravel. Cheers Yaroslav ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4744 / Virus Database: 4007/8020 - Release Date: 08/11/14 ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you
Also, 118 people (190 vs. 72 votes in the poll [1] on German Wikipedia) are not the community. They are a small part of the community. The people who would profit [2] from the Media Viewer as a default feature were not consulted. Cheers, Magnus [1] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Meinungsbilder/Medienbetrachter [2] Value of profit TBD On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 1:13 PM, Peter Southwood peter.southw...@telkomsa.net wrote: As one has been there, done that, I would like to point out that there is an order of magnitude difference between Internet Brands and WMF. Cheers, Peter -Original Message- From: wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto: wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Yaroslav M. Blanter Sent: 12 August 2014 02:00 PM To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you On 12.08.2014 02:26, svetlana wrote: If we accept the policy in principle, I don't care who enforces such policy, that be community or WMF. Such policy does not go against community entirely, unless WMF shows a will to reject community patches related to issues which community finds important. Whether or not this is the case, I don't care; it's a website in their hands and they're welcome to shut it off without notice, or to experiment at leisure. svetlana Whoever believes that an administration of a crowdsourcing website can do whatever they want just because they are running the website should recollect what recently happened to Internet Brands and Wikitravel. Cheers Yaroslav ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4744 / Virus Database: 4007/8020 - Release Date: 08/11/14 ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you
On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 10:19 AM, Craig Franklin cfrank...@halonetwork.net wrote: I'll be writing a longer post on the Meta RFC later, but can you confirm whether the idea is to superprotect key interface pages like [[Mediawiki:common.js]] on a permanent basis, or will this feature only be used to lock pages temporarily in the case of wheel warring or other circumstances like what happened on de.wp? Dear Craig, Thank you for the question. Definitely the latter. In general, as I mentioned in my original note, we intend to bring on-wiki functionality that directly relates to the UI and code (i.e. chiefly the MediaWiki: namespace, which is a highly unusual software feature to begin with) in closer alignment with off-wiki software development, review and deployment practices, including permission levels (e.g. actually make it easier for anyone to submit changes, but gate changes that impact all users). Lila and I will post more thoughts on the larger issues within the coming days. We deeply regret the disruptive impact this discussion is having on Wikimedia's mission and our work together. At the same time, working through these questions has long been overdue, and my hope is that we can come out of this with greater clarity regarding how we partner on issues that are often likely to be contentious, which includes user experience changes. Sincerely, Erik -- Erik Möller VP of Engineering and Product Development, Wikimedia Foundation ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
[Wikimedia-l] Thank you for Wikimania!
Thank you so much to the London Wikimania organizers for putting a wonderful Wikimania 2014. I want to recognize everyone who helped out: the core team who proposed the bid and worked for over a year organizing a vision and a team to carry it out; the staff at Wikimedia UK and WMF who worked on organization; the international volunteer teams who put together the program and multiple scholarship programs; the tech staff in-person and online; the on-the-ground volunteers who made the event go; all the speakers, and everyone who contributed. Thank you! Pulling off a major international conference isn't easy, and this one rocked. This was the tenth Wikimania (!), and we had a small session reflecting on each of the Wikimanias to date. They have all been different, but they have certainly all had commonalities too: each Wikimania is a chance to meet other people who are doing intriguing, wonderful things; to sit up late into the night brainstorming and arguing about ideas; to learn from each other about techniques for educating and talking about our projects; to hack together. More than anything, Wikimania is a way to recognize that we are part of a real community of passionate and dedicated people -- people who love to take pictures and write and code and learn new things and drink and dance and eat stroopwafels and talk and talk and talk. So, a huge thank you to the London team for holding a great event both for long-time Wikimaniacs and for a whole new group of people (this was the first Wikimania for hundreds of people, going by the opening session). I encourage you all to watch the videos of the talks, and to keep the Wikimania spirit alive this year by learning about new initiatives, reaching out to people you don't already know who are doing cool stuff, visiting a project that you're not familiar with and seeing what they're up to, and experimenting with new things. And I hope to see you all in Mexico next year! [[3]], Phoebe -- * I use this address for lists; send personal messages to phoebe.ayers at gmail.com * ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you
Has it ever come to the mind that something is going wrong on how the community is approached? Has it ever come to the mind that some software implementations have gone to hastily with negative effects? That the community reacts the way it does now, is because they care very much about the site and they notice something is terrible going wrong on WMF side and too less is done to fix those problems/issues! Apparently nothing (or not enough) has been learned from the VE 2013 fiasco. Romaine 2014-08-10 15:27 GMT+02:00 Erik Moeller e...@wikimedia.org: Hi folks, Admins are currently given broad leeway to customize the user experience for all users, including addition of site-wide JS, CSS, etc. These are important capabilities of the wiki that have been used for many clearly beneficial purposes. In the long run, we will want to apply a code review process to these changes as with any other deployed code, but for now the system works as it is and we have no intent to remove this capability. However, we've clarified in a number of venues that use of the MediaWiki: namespace to disable site features is unacceptable. If such a conflict arises, we're prepared to revoke permissions if required. This protection level provides an additional path to manage these situations by preventing edits to the relevant pages (we're happy to help apply any urgent edits) until a particular situation has calmed down. Thanks, Erik -- Erik Möller VP of Engineering and Product Development, Wikimedia Foundation ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
[Wikimedia-l] Tech News the communication gap (was Re: Options for the German Wikipedia)
On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 8:44 AM, Dan Garry dga...@wikimedia.org wrote: On 12 August 2014 02:39, svetlana svetl...@fastmail.com.au wrote: There needs to be a central place, like the Wikimedia blog, but dedicated to tech things - actively announcing everything WM ENGINEERING are doing, both in products and in core. There is. It's called the monthly report. See here for July's for example: * https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Engineering/Report/2014/July https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Engineering/Report/2014/July* Lack of information is not the problem, most of the times. In addition to the WMF Engineering monthly reports, tech-curious wikimedians have: * Tech News, shipped on a weekly basis, to the point, and not limited to WMF-driven projects. A great team of volunteers lead by Odder and Guillaume work persistently to fix this communication gap. Everybody: please subscribe and help promoting this great resource. https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Tech_News * WMF Engineering short mid term goals. Follow the links for status reports, project plans, and direct feedback to the teams involved. https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Engineering/2014-15_Goals These resources are far from perfect, but they exist today. Ideas and help to improve them are welcome. -- Quim Gil Engineering Community Manager @ Wikimedia Foundation http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Qgil ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you
magnus, a vote always has 3 options. * i am for it * i am against it * i can live with the outcome of the vote so i did not vote. because i can live with both. but i do respect the vote. i do respect admin decisions, i even voted for some admins. at the end it is very simple. the one who produces software has a conflict of interest. so this person or organisation is not in a good position to decide when it is used. wmf, its employees and voluntary officers need to be exemplary with respect to conflicts of interest, imo. always. errors are allowed as well as excuses of course. magnus you said you are not happy with media viewer. and you always produce software people like. what should they improve? rupert Am 12.08.2014 14:45 schrieb Magnus Manske magnusman...@googlemail.com: Also, 118 people (190 vs. 72 votes in the poll [1] on German Wikipedia) are not the community. They are a small part of the community. The people who would profit [2] from the Media Viewer as a default feature were not consulted. Cheers, Magnus [1] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Meinungsbilder/Medienbetrachter [2] Value of profit TBD On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 1:13 PM, Peter Southwood peter.southw...@telkomsa.net wrote: As one has been there, done that, I would like to point out that there is an order of magnitude difference between Internet Brands and WMF. Cheers, Peter -Original Message- From: wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto: wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Yaroslav M. Blanter Sent: 12 August 2014 02:00 PM To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you On 12.08.2014 02:26, svetlana wrote: If we accept the policy in principle, I don't care who enforces such policy, that be community or WMF. Such policy does not go against community entirely, unless WMF shows a will to reject community patches related to issues which community finds important. Whether or not this is the case, I don't care; it's a website in their hands and they're welcome to shut it off without notice, or to experiment at leisure. svetlana Whoever believes that an administration of a crowdsourcing website can do whatever they want just because they are running the website should recollect what recently happened to Internet Brands and Wikitravel. Cheers Yaroslav ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4744 / Virus Database: 4007/8020 - Release Date: 08/11/14 ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you
On 12/08/2014 15:19, rupert THURNER wrote: magnus, a vote always has 3 options. * i am for it * i am against it * i can live with the outcome of the vote No, there are other options. * I didn't know the poll was happening * I just want to get on with editing / reading Wikipedia (or sister project) and are sick of the constant bickering. * I am happy for the Foundation (after consultation) to decide on what features to have on the project it is entrusted in running. at the end it is very simple. the one who produces software has a conflict of interest. so this person or organisation is not in a good position to decide when it is used. And the editor community are not in the best position to decide what are the best features for the (overlapping but much much larger) reader community either. Katie -- Katie Chan Any views or opinions presented in this e-mail are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent the view of any organisation the author is associated with or employed by. Experience is a good school but the fees are high. - Heinrich Heine ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you
On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 3:19 PM, rupert THURNER rupert.thur...@gmail.com wrote: magnus, a vote always has 3 options. * i am for it * i am against it * i can live with the outcome of the vote nitpick You mean do not particularly care about it, surely? That you can live with the outcome of a vote, whatever outcome that is, is a fundamental principle of democracy, not a voting option. /nitpick so i did not vote. because i can live with both. but i do respect the vote. i do respect admin decisions, i even voted for some admins. at the end it is very simple. the one who produces software has a conflict of interest. so this person or organisation is not in a good position to decide when it is used. wmf, its employees and voluntary officers need to be exemplary with respect to conflicts of interest, imo. always. errors are allowed as well as excuses of course. There needs to be a balance between the wishes of (some members of) the logged-in community, the (otherwise silent) majority of readers, and the WMF. German Wikipedia had 1.1 billion page views in June [1]. ~300 votes (~2/3 against MediaViewer) do not represent the readers, IMHO. The Foundation is tasked with managing the hardware and software that runs Wikipedia. On Wikimania, several remarks were made about how outdated Wikipedia appears. WMF tries to improve that situation. No, MediaViewer is not perfect. What software is? When is it perfect enough to go live by default? WMF should have a say there. magnus you said you are not happy with media viewer. and you always produce software people like. what should they improve? Like many other old hands, it seems to get in the way of my workflow. Not an issue for me, as long as I can turn it off. It's probably fine for modern viewing, although it's hard to guess that you get to the file page via the little Commons icon for people who (in all likelihood) have never seen that icon, or visited Commons. Cheers, Magnus [1] https://stats.wikimedia.org/EN/SummaryDE.htm rupert Am 12.08.2014 14:45 schrieb Magnus Manske magnusman...@googlemail.com: Also, 118 people (190 vs. 72 votes in the poll [1] on German Wikipedia) are not the community. They are a small part of the community. The people who would profit [2] from the Media Viewer as a default feature were not consulted. Cheers, Magnus [1] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Meinungsbilder/Medienbetrachter [2] Value of profit TBD On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 1:13 PM, Peter Southwood peter.southw...@telkomsa.net wrote: As one has been there, done that, I would like to point out that there is an order of magnitude difference between Internet Brands and WMF. Cheers, Peter -Original Message- From: wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto: wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Yaroslav M. Blanter Sent: 12 August 2014 02:00 PM To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you On 12.08.2014 02:26, svetlana wrote: If we accept the policy in principle, I don't care who enforces such policy, that be community or WMF. Such policy does not go against community entirely, unless WMF shows a will to reject community patches related to issues which community finds important. Whether or not this is the case, I don't care; it's a website in their hands and they're welcome to shut it off without notice, or to experiment at leisure. svetlana Whoever believes that an administration of a crowdsourcing website can do whatever they want just because they are running the website should recollect what recently happened to Internet Brands and Wikitravel. Cheers Yaroslav ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4744 / Virus Database: 4007/8020 - Release Date: 08/11/14 ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you
2014-08-12 16:57 GMT+02:00 Magnus Manske magnusman...@googlemail.com: On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 3:19 PM, rupert THURNER rupert.thur...@gmail.com wrote: so i did not vote. because i can live with both. but i do respect the vote. i do respect admin decisions, i even voted for some admins. at the end it is very simple. the one who produces software has a conflict of interest. so this person or organisation is not in a good position to decide when it is used. wmf, its employees and voluntary officers need to be exemplary with respect to conflicts of interest, imo. always. errors are allowed as well as excuses of course. There needs to be a balance between the wishes of (some members of) the logged-in community, the (otherwise silent) majority of readers, and the WMF. True German Wikipedia had 1.1 billion page views in June [1]. ~300 votes (~2/3 against MediaViewer) do not represent the readers, IMHO. I think it is more relevant to look at the number of unique visitors, in stead of the 1.1 billion page views. The Foundation is tasked with managing the hardware and software that runs Wikipedia. On Wikimania, several remarks were made about how outdated Wikipedia appears. WMF tries to improve that situation. No, MediaViewer is not perfect. What software is? When is it perfect enough to go live by default? WMF should have a say there. I agree that WMF should have a say, but how it is done now is certainly not the way WMF should handle it. Also I think it would be good to define for future cases how such situations should be handled. If a community has a strong oppose in something, such situation should be considered more carefully and be handled with more care. A community can't represent all readers, but they are themselves readers too who feel to have a large responsibility to the readers. They usually have valid arguments and considerations which should be taken more seriously. We all are on the same ship with the same vision on the horizon, with the same goals. Romaine [1] https://stats.wikimedia.org/EN/SummaryDE.htm ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you
On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 4:21 PM, Romaine Wiki romaine.w...@gmail.com wrote: 2014-08-12 16:57 GMT+02:00 Magnus Manske magnusman...@googlemail.com: On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 3:19 PM, rupert THURNER rupert.thur...@gmail.com wrote: so i did not vote. because i can live with both. but i do respect the vote. i do respect admin decisions, i even voted for some admins. at the end it is very simple. the one who produces software has a conflict of interest. so this person or organisation is not in a good position to decide when it is used. wmf, its employees and voluntary officers need to be exemplary with respect to conflicts of interest, imo. always. errors are allowed as well as excuses of course. There needs to be a balance between the wishes of (some members of) the logged-in community, the (otherwise silent) majority of readers, and the WMF. True German Wikipedia had 1.1 billion page views in June [1]. ~300 votes (~2/3 against MediaViewer) do not represent the readers, IMHO. I think it is more relevant to look at the number of unique visitors, in stead of the 1.1 billion page views. I agree, but I couldn't find that number on the report card, so I used the next best thing. Assuming 100 page views per visitor would give 10M visitors. 80M people in Germany alone, so probably not too far off. That would mean that 0.003% of visitors voted, and 0.002% voted against MediaViewer, with a ~0.001% edge. The Foundation is tasked with managing the hardware and software that runs Wikipedia. On Wikimania, several remarks were made about how outdated Wikipedia appears. WMF tries to improve that situation. No, MediaViewer is not perfect. What software is? When is it perfect enough to go live by default? WMF should have a say there. I agree that WMF should have a say, but how it is done now is certainly not the way WMF should handle it. Also I think it would be good to define for future cases how such situations should be handled. If a community has a strong oppose in something, such situation should be considered more carefully and be handled with more care. A community can't represent all readers, but they are themselves readers too who feel to have a large responsibility to the readers. They usually have valid arguments and considerations which should be taken more seriously. We all are on the same ship with the same vision on the horizon, with the same goals. Yes, it could have been handled better. Actually, just saying this is coming by default, you can turn it off individually /before/ the vote was initiated would have been much clearer, and I don't think it would have caused as much uproar as we have now. It also could have helped to focus the community on finding and reporting bugs, which might have lead to earlier improvements to the software. And yes, the community should have a say, but this is a rather technical issue, even if it is an interface change. The community is, and always has been, very much in charge of content and editorial policies, beyond the pillars. Finally, I think that an open and detailed description by the WMF about what, exactly, happened, and why MediaViewer is pushed against the wishes of a small but vocal group, would help a lot to smooth the waves. Cheers, Magnus ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you
On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 6:54 PM, John Mark Vandenberg jay...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 3:49 AM, Brad Jorsch (Anomie) bjor...@wikimedia.org wrote: On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 2:01 PM, John Mark Vandenberg jay...@gmail.com wrote: Before this, there was no expectation that a page could be protected such that sysops could not alter the content of the superprotected page. This is false. Care to explain? https://www.mediawiki.org/w/index.php?title=Manual:$wgRestrictionLevelsdiff=519048oldid=451673 shows that protection levels that prevent sysops from editing were considered as far back as 3 April 2012, for example. Most of what MZMcBride posted there has nothing to do with actually breaking superprotection. Editing a page that isn't superprotected isn't a break in the protection feature itself, for example. Of course it is. It isnt a 'feature' until it actually works at the released product level. You appear to be confusing superprotection with something else, likely the much larger concept of preventing JS hacks to disable MediaViewer. -- Brad Jorsch (Anomie) Software Engineer Wikimedia Foundation ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you
On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 4:57 PM, Magnus Manske magnusman...@googlemail.com wrote: It's probably fine for modern viewing, although it's hard to guess that you get to the file page via the little Commons icon for people who (in all likelihood) have never seen that icon, or visited Commons. Dear Magnus, Thanks as always for your thoughtful comments. It was great to see you at Wikimania again, too. :) Indeed, the icon to the File: page is currently very opaque. We're preparing for a round of possible changes to the viewing experience, potentially including - moving caption above the fold so readers don't have to hunt for it - moving disable action above-the-fold - potentially eliminating the below-the-fold panel entirely - emphasizing the File: page more prominently as the canonical source of metadata - separating out download/use actions more clearly These changes will need to be carefully tested/validated. If you want to take a look at an early early (!) prototype (!!), see http://multimedia-alpha.wmflabs.org/wiki/Lightbox_demo , but please note that anything but the basic view experience is placeholder right now (as is the Details icon etc.), and the caption-above-the-fold is not implemented yet. We've looked at some of this with folks at Wikimania, and the community feedback there was very positive. But like I said, give us a bit more time on this. In general, Giles made a good point at the multimedia roundtable at Wikimania: Historically, product development at WMF was so slow that calling for an immediate rollback of a new thing that doesn't work quite perfectly yet for everyone was a bit more appropriate. Nowadays we really can push out a new release in a few weeks, and the constant turning on/off is not helpful for anyone, especially for a feature like this that can easily be disabled by anyone who doesn't like it. In answer to your query regarding how we communicated about this, please note that we posted the following at the beginning of the poll: https://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_Diskussion:Meinungsbilder/Medienbetrachterdiff=prevoldid=132469014 Translation: The Wikimedia Foundation reserves the right to make a final decision about the standard configuration of software features in Wikimedia projects (see [[m:Limits to configuration changes]]). For the avoidance of doubt: This includes hacks implemented via the MediaWiki: namespace. Of course want to find a solution that is acceptable for readers and editors. We are open to the idea that the default setting for logged in users and logged out users should be different. - - - I don't think we could have been any clearer that a MediaWiki: disable hack would not be acceptable -- we said so from the start. We did indeed agree to implement a different default configuration for logged in users for Wikimedia Commons, given the unique nature of the project. We would strongly advise against doing the same for logged in users on Wikipedia projects, and decided not to do so in response to the vote on de.wp. While settling on a compromise like this may be tempting in the short term to de-escalate matters, let's only do it if it's truly the right thing to do, not for political reasons alone. Erik -- Erik Möller VP of Engineering and Product Development, Wikimedia Foundation ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you
On 12.08.2014 16:57, Magnus Manske wrote: German Wikipedia had 1.1 billion page views in June [1]. ~300 votes (~2/3 against MediaViewer) do not represent the readers, IMHO. Claiming to speak for a perceived silent majority will not help you much in this discussion. There is a common pattern in the conflicts between WMF and several communities over software developments during the last few years. As I wrote two weeks ago to Rachel: | Decision making seems to be focused on reader experience, including | winning readers to become authors, but existing authors and their | experience (in both meanings of the word) is ignored. Even by people | like Eric, who once was a prolific author himself | Authors see themselves as the single most important group in the |Wikimedia universe. Without their content, there would be nothing: No | readers, no fundraising banners, no donations, no employees, no | foundation. On the other hand, WMF seems to see the readers (and | donors) as their main target audience. Of course WMF knows, that all | the projects need content and authors, but in my opinion most of them | fail in appreciating the existing authors and focus too much on | winning readers to become authors, by simplifying the entry. This is serious. WMF really needs to appreciate the expertise of the author community and accept their experience a important and valid. If authors tell the WMF and particularly the devs, that a particular function is necessary, then the devs really, really need to think. If the community tells the devs, that a particular idea is a bad one, a feature is too buggy to be rolled out (as default) or is unsuitable for a project at all, this warrants more than just a cursory thought. A formal RfD must not be taken lightly, overruling it by creating a whole new user class, and crippling the elected admins is inpermissible. WMF has broken trust again and this time in a unprecedented way. Until this event, I thought the dev process to be broken, not just the communication around devs. But now I believe the conflict runs deeper. Henning User: H-stt (admin on deWP and Commons) ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you
On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 5:26 PM, Erik Moeller e...@wikimedia.org wrote: These changes will need to be carefully tested/validated. If you want to take a look at an early early (!) prototype (!!), see http://multimedia-alpha.wmflabs.org/wiki/Lightbox_demo , but please note that anything but the basic view experience is placeholder right now (as is the Details icon etc.), and the caption-above-the-fold is not implemented yet. We've looked at some of this with folks at Wikimania, and the community feedback there was very positive. But like I said, give us a bit more time on this. This looks much better! (though it appears to have problems with PNGs...) In answer to your query regarding how we communicated about this, please note that we posted the following at the beginning of the poll: https://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_Diskussion:Meinungsbilder/Medienbetrachterdiff=prevoldid=132469014 Thanks Erik, I somehow missed this. It is indeed ample notification. Cheers, Magnus ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you
Whoever believes that an administration of a crowdsourcing website can do whatever they want just because they are running the website should recollect what recently happened to Internet Brands and Wikitravel. Popcorn, anyone? Wikipedia is not an organization, and the WMF does not administer the Wikipedias. It owns them, which gives the WMF the *legal right* to administer. It's quite obvious that, as the wikis have been operating, for the WMF to take over administration would require major changes. But it would not be impossible, and only a narrow imagination would conclude so. This issue of superprotect and how it was used raises issues of power and control. It seems to be assumed in these discussions that this is a deliberate assertion of power, we are in charge and you are not, and in a sense, it obviously is. However, is that the intention? Why are WMF employees confronting the community at this time and in this way and over a relatively small issue, and without a clear policy statement from the Board? The WMF has been, apparently, silent so far, which could mean that the Board and Executive Director have no plan, that they are trying to figure out what to do. This would be completely unsurprising. There are now editors suggesting a strike. That would be the community -- or a segment of the community -- attempting to force the WMF to submit to their way. And the superprotect flap was the WMF attempting to force the community to submit to their way. That tends to be where we go first when we are sure we are right, and others are wrong. And if it goes this way, everyone loses, very likely. https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Superprotect_rights is the usual wiki train wreck, which is what happens when raw, unripe proposals are made. But the WMF is not like the community, it is possible for it to come up with reflected, deliberated response. That, indeed, is why they have the money and the control. I recommend no rush. Do this right. That RfC is generating a lot of comment. Someone can and should refactor it to summarize the arguments, to create a true consensus document, I've been calling it. But whether or not anyone will find the time to do it, I don't know. It's a lot of work. Still, I'd think that the WMF would be noticing that it touched a live wire. So now what? Abd ul-Rahman Lomax I'm so excited I can't wait for Now. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Options for the German Wikipedia
It seems that poor (and insufficient) communication is a pretty widespread problem at WMF. Balazs 2014-08-12 13:25 GMT+02:00 Chris Keating chriskeatingw...@gmail.com: Does either of you or anyone else see a valid reason to deny this seemingly reasonable and considered request? It's quite obvious that hacks to achieve the same ends are far from ideal. Why not simply disable MediaViewer by default on the German Wikipedia, as requested? In my view, the technical configuration and user experience of WMF wikis are areas where community discussion is advisory rather than decisive. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you
On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 11:12 AM, Magnus Manske magnusman...@googlemail.com wrote: On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 5:26 PM, Erik Moeller e...@wikimedia.org wrote: These changes will need to be carefully tested/validated. If you want to take a look at an early early (!) prototype (!!), see http://multimedia-alpha.wmflabs.org/wiki/Lightbox_demo , but please note that anything but the basic view experience is placeholder right now (as is the Details icon etc.), and the caption-above-the-fold is not implemented yet. We've looked at some of this with folks at Wikimania, and the community feedback there was very positive. But like I said, give us a bit more time on this. This looks much better! (though it appears to have problems with PNGs...) It does look better, and addresses *some* of the many major problems with the Media Viewer. But there are still show-stopper problems. Iterating while badly broken software is still deployed to many millions of readers is a bad practice, though, so for the moment I'll leave it at that. Erik, as I have said before -- your request for a bit more time would be much better received if you would simply revert the change, as per consensus on 3 major projects, while you work to fix this broken software. It's a very simple and non-dramatic option you have had available the entire time. Pete [[User:Peteforsyth]] ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you
On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 5:33 PM, Henning Schlottmann h.schlottm...@gmx.net wrote: On 12.08.2014 16:57, Magnus Manske wrote: German Wikipedia had 1.1 billion page views in June [1]. ~300 votes (~2/3 against MediaViewer) do not represent the readers, IMHO. Claiming to speak for a perceived silent majority will not help you much in this discussion. I do not make any such claim. All I say is that the 300 (is there a movie plot here?) do not necessarily speak for it, either. There is a common pattern in the conflicts between WMF and several communities over software developments during the last few years. As I wrote two weeks ago to Rachel: | Decision making seems to be focused on reader experience, including | winning readers to become authors, but existing authors and their | experience (in both meanings of the word) is ignored. Even by people | like Eric, who once was a prolific author himself | Authors see themselves as the single most important group in the |Wikimedia universe. Without their content, there would be nothing: No | readers, no fundraising banners, no donations, no employees, no | foundation. On the other hand, WMF seems to see the readers (and | donors) as their main target audience. Of course WMF knows, that all | the projects need content and authors, but in my opinion most of them | fail in appreciating the existing authors and focus too much on | winning readers to become authors, by simplifying the entry. This is serious. WMF really needs to appreciate the expertise of the author community and accept their experience a important and valid. If authors tell the WMF and particularly the devs, that a particular function is necessary, then the devs really, really need to think. I do agree with this. Visual Editor (which works much better these days) and MediaViewer are not aimed at the experienced editor. They aim to make the reader more comfortable, and try to ease the first steps into editing. Winning new editors has been deemed a priority, somewhat at the expense of WMF-made support for the power user. This is a judgement call the Foundation has to make. If the community tells the devs, that a particular idea is a bad one, a feature is too buggy to be rolled out (as default) or is unsuitable for a project at all, this warrants more than just a cursory thought. A formal RfD must not be taken lightly, overruling it by creating a whole new user class, and crippling the elected admins is inpermissible. WMF has broken trust again and this time in a unprecedented way. As Erik pointed out, WMF had made it quite clear that they reserve the right to overrule the community in that specific matter, before the Meinungsbild was done. WMF then acted as announced, and refused to be hacked out of their own servers. An unfortunate escalation on both sides, but since they never promised to accept the Meinungsbild (quite the opposite!), it was not a breach of trust. Until this event, I thought the dev process to be broken, not just the communication around devs. But now I believe the conflict runs deeper. It points out an issue we (community and WMF) should discuss, in a more general sense. What should the decision process be for technical changes? When does the Foundation get precendence, and when should the community have the last word? What weight should small-scale votes of editors have? Should random polls be done, and included in such votes? Etc. The MediaViewer affair itself gets blown out of proportion IMO. Cheers, Magnus ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
[Wikimedia-l] is it possible to accept bitcoins without receiving stolen property?
Given this news about BGP hijacking used to mine hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of dollars worth of bitcoins per year, as a practical matter concerning donations, is there any way to accept bitcoin payments without risking accepting stolen property? http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/future_tense/2014/08/bgp_hijacking_cybercriminals_used_internet_architecture_to_mine_bitcoins.html ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] is it possible to accept bitcoins without receiving stolen property?
No, that doesn't seem possible. But that's not really different for any other payment method either. And even if we could get payments without risking accepting stolen property, I don't think we should. When choosing between unwittingly accepting tainted money and forcing people to give up their complete financial privacy, I find the first option the least morally repugnant one. Andre Engels On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 11:49 PM, James Salsman jsals...@gmail.com wrote: Given this news about BGP hijacking used to mine hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of dollars worth of bitcoins per year, as a practical matter concerning donations, is there any way to accept bitcoin payments without risking accepting stolen property? http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/future_tense/2014/08/bgp_hijacking_cybercriminals_used_internet_architecture_to_mine_bitcoins.html ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe -- André Engels, andreeng...@gmail.com ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] is it possible to accept bitcoins without receiving stolen property?
You do, of course, realize that any currency anyone accepts could at some point have been stolen? On Aug 12, 2014 3:49 PM, James Salsman jsals...@gmail.com wrote: Given this news about BGP hijacking used to mine hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of dollars worth of bitcoins per year, as a practical matter concerning donations, is there any way to accept bitcoin payments without risking accepting stolen property? http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/future_tense/2014/08/bgp_hijacking_cybercriminals_used_internet_architecture_to_mine_bitcoins.html ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you
All, I just want to call your attention to Lila's statement at https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:LilaTretikov#On_a_Scale_of_Billions . pb *Philippe Beaudette * \\ Director, Community Advocacy \\ Wikimedia Foundation, Inc. T: 1-415-839-6885 x6643 | phili...@wikimedia.org | : @Philippewiki https://twitter.com/Philippewiki On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 2:41 PM, Magnus Manske magnusman...@googlemail.com wrote: On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 5:33 PM, Henning Schlottmann h.schlottm...@gmx.net wrote: On 12.08.2014 16:57, Magnus Manske wrote: German Wikipedia had 1.1 billion page views in June [1]. ~300 votes (~2/3 against MediaViewer) do not represent the readers, IMHO. Claiming to speak for a perceived silent majority will not help you much in this discussion. I do not make any such claim. All I say is that the 300 (is there a movie plot here?) do not necessarily speak for it, either. There is a common pattern in the conflicts between WMF and several communities over software developments during the last few years. As I wrote two weeks ago to Rachel: | Decision making seems to be focused on reader experience, including | winning readers to become authors, but existing authors and their | experience (in both meanings of the word) is ignored. Even by people | like Eric, who once was a prolific author himself | Authors see themselves as the single most important group in the |Wikimedia universe. Without their content, there would be nothing: No | readers, no fundraising banners, no donations, no employees, no | foundation. On the other hand, WMF seems to see the readers (and | donors) as their main target audience. Of course WMF knows, that all | the projects need content and authors, but in my opinion most of them | fail in appreciating the existing authors and focus too much on | winning readers to become authors, by simplifying the entry. This is serious. WMF really needs to appreciate the expertise of the author community and accept their experience a important and valid. If authors tell the WMF and particularly the devs, that a particular function is necessary, then the devs really, really need to think. I do agree with this. Visual Editor (which works much better these days) and MediaViewer are not aimed at the experienced editor. They aim to make the reader more comfortable, and try to ease the first steps into editing. Winning new editors has been deemed a priority, somewhat at the expense of WMF-made support for the power user. This is a judgement call the Foundation has to make. If the community tells the devs, that a particular idea is a bad one, a feature is too buggy to be rolled out (as default) or is unsuitable for a project at all, this warrants more than just a cursory thought. A formal RfD must not be taken lightly, overruling it by creating a whole new user class, and crippling the elected admins is inpermissible. WMF has broken trust again and this time in a unprecedented way. As Erik pointed out, WMF had made it quite clear that they reserve the right to overrule the community in that specific matter, before the Meinungsbild was done. WMF then acted as announced, and refused to be hacked out of their own servers. An unfortunate escalation on both sides, but since they never promised to accept the Meinungsbild (quite the opposite!), it was not a breach of trust. Until this event, I thought the dev process to be broken, not just the communication around devs. But now I believe the conflict runs deeper. It points out an issue we (community and WMF) should discuss, in a more general sense. What should the decision process be for technical changes? When does the Foundation get precendence, and when should the community have the last word? What weight should small-scale votes of editors have? Should random polls be done, and included in such votes? Etc. The MediaViewer affair itself gets blown out of proportion IMO. Cheers, Magnus ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you
On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 12:41 PM, Magnus Manske magnusman...@googlemail.com wrote: On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 5:33 PM, Henning Schlottmann h.schlottm...@gmx.net wrote: This is serious. WMF really needs to appreciate the expertise of the author community and accept their experience a important and valid. If authors tell the WMF and particularly the devs, that a particular function is necessary, then the devs really, really need to think. I do agree with this. Visual Editor (which works much better these days) and MediaViewer are not aimed at the experienced editor. They aim to make the reader more comfortable, and try to ease the first steps into editing. Winning new editors has been deemed a priority, somewhat at the expense of WMF-made support for the power user. This is a judgement call the Foundation has to make. This is the biggest aspect of the problem, from my perspective: many of us who have opposed the default enabling of the Media Viewer have done so *not* on the basis that we personally dislike it, but on the basis that we believe it causes problems for the process of helping readers become effective editors. I myself have a great deal of experience with this process; I was hired in 2009 by WMF for my expertise in this area; I helped design the Ambassador Training program for the WMF that helps university students convert from readers to editors; and since I left WMF, I have trained hundreds of others to edit Wikipedia, most notably in the 6 week online course I developed and taught 4 times. Whether or not I, as an experienced editor, like the Media Viewer is indeed unimportant; I have no problem disabling the software for myself. Many WMF staff, however, *continue* to summarize the opposition as, experienced editors do not like it. This is a straw man argument, and an absolute failure to absorb the considered criticisms layed out on the various RfC pages. At the same time, a frequent piece of the WMF argument is, many readers *do* like it. But whether or not they *like* it is completely different from whether or not we are guiding them toward becoming editors -- the two have almost nothing to do with one another. Whether the readers like it has absolutely nothing to do with the five goals layed out in the 2010 Five Year Strategic Plan. But whether or not they are guided effectively toward becoming editors, that does. And removing the edit button, or any suggestion that such a thing might exist, from millions and millions of pages...that does not serve that goal. The WMF chose to Narrow Focus a couple years ago. I believe that what got narrowed out was, by and large, processes that serve the secondary purpose of helping the WMF educate itself, in an ongoing way, about how its projects and communities operate. I believe we are seeing the effects of that decision now. Until this event, I thought the dev process to be broken, not just the communication around devs. But now I believe the conflict runs deeper. It points out an issue we (community and WMF) should discuss, in a more general sense. What should the decision process be for technical changes? When does the Foundation get precendence, and when should the community have the last word? What weight should small-scale votes of editors have? While I agree that it's important to have some clarity on this stuff, it's also very important -- more important, perhaps -- to keep in mind that when things are working smoothly, we very rarely have to consider the question of who can overrule whom. That is the kind of ideal the WMF should be striving for -- in actions, not merely in words. Pete [[User:Peteforsyth]] ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you
On Tue, 12 Aug 2014, at 23:42, Romaine Wiki wrote: That the community reacts the way it does now, is because they care very much about the site and they notice something is terrible going wrong on WMF side and too less is done to fix those problems/issues! if the community was not so willing to use force (ie a js hack) against the other party instead of talking properly then the superprotect wouldn't exist at all you seeing the problem there? whose problem is it? desire to act out of the blue instead of collaborating they didn't collaborate at all they added the js hack as if it was something urgent, that needs saving people from i would only do this if someone added a virus into mv by mistake this community thinks that its power structures allow to tromp onto other people ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you
On Wed, 13 Aug 2014, at 10:46, svetlana wrote: On Tue, 12 Aug 2014, at 23:42, Romaine Wiki wrote: That the community reacts the way it does now, is because they care very much about the site and they notice something is terrible going wrong on WMF side and too less is done to fix those problems/issues! if the community was not so willing to use force (ie a js hack) against the other party instead of talking properly then the superprotect wouldn't exist at all you seeing the problem there? whose problem is it? desire to act out of the blue instead of collaborating they didn't collaborate at all they added the js hack as if it was something urgent, that needs saving people from i would only do this if someone added a virus into mv by mistake this community thinks that its power structures allow to tromp onto other people sysops aren't even held accountable they are elected once for an infinite term nobody reviews their contribution in position in power ever this would surely be solved by making them elected on a 2-year term then re-elect svetlana ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you
On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 5:46 PM, svetlana svetl...@fastmail.com.au wrote: On Tue, 12 Aug 2014, at 23:42, Romaine Wiki wrote: That the community reacts the way it does now, is because they care very much about the site and they notice something is terrible going wrong on WMF side and too less is done to fix those problems/issues! if the community was not so willing to use force (ie a js hack) against the other party Using force could equally well apply to implementing a feature without sufficient buy-in, and then refusing to roll it back when so requested. The WMF's basis for concluding that readers are better served with the MV than without it is riddled with holes, as exhaustively explained elsewhere. You talk about admin accountability, Svetlana -- but what about accountability for the WMF, when it makes sweeping changes that (among other things) remove any suggestion of an edit functionality from the encyclopedia anyone can edit from millions and millions of pages? Pete [[User:Peteforsyth]] ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you
If the WF wasn't so willing to use force (i.e. pushing unwanted changes) against the other party instead of talking properly then the superprotect wouldn't exist at all you seeing the problem there? whose problem is it? desire to act out of the blue instead of collaborating they didn't collaborate at all they added Media Viewer as if it was something urgent, that will save people this WMF thinks that its power structures allow it to tromp onto other people Works perfectly the other way too, doesn't it? On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 6:46 PM, svetlana svetl...@fastmail.com.au wrote: On Tue, 12 Aug 2014, at 23:42, Romaine Wiki wrote: That the community reacts the way it does now, is because they care very much about the site and they notice something is terrible going wrong on WMF side and too less is done to fix those problems/issues! if the community was not so willing to use force (ie a js hack) against the other party instead of talking properly then the superprotect wouldn't exist at all you seeing the problem there? whose problem is it? desire to act out of the blue instead of collaborating they didn't collaborate at all they added the js hack as if it was something urgent, that needs saving people from i would only do this if someone added a virus into mv by mistake this community thinks that its power structures allow to tromp onto other people ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you
2014-08-12 21:41 GMT+02:00 Magnus Manske magnusman...@googlemail.com: On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 5:33 PM, Henning Schlottmann h.schlottm...@gmx.net wrote: There is a common pattern in the conflicts between WMF and several communities over software developments during the last few years. As I wrote two weeks ago to Rachel: | Decision making seems to be focused on reader experience, including | winning readers to become authors, but existing authors and their | experience (in both meanings of the word) is ignored. Even by people | like Eric, who once was a prolific author himself | Authors see themselves as the single most important group in the |Wikimedia universe. Without their content, there would be nothing: No | readers, no fundraising banners, no donations, no employees, no | foundation. On the other hand, WMF seems to see the readers (and | donors) as their main target audience. Of course WMF knows, that all | the projects need content and authors, but in my opinion most of them | fail in appreciating the existing authors and focus too much on | winning readers to become authors, by simplifying the entry. This is serious. WMF really needs to appreciate the expertise of the author community and accept their experience a important and valid. If authors tell the WMF and particularly the devs, that a particular function is necessary, then the devs really, really need to think. I do agree with this. Visual Editor (which works much better these days) and MediaViewer are not aimed at the experienced editor. They aim to make the reader more comfortable, and try to ease the first steps into editing. Winning new editors has been deemed a priority, somewhat at the expense of WMF-made support for the power user. This is a judgement call the Foundation has to make. I am not sure how it is for other wikis but we have seen bugs in the Visual Editor which cause newbies to do wrong edits (like removing stuff which a. should not be removed, b. was not intented to be removed by the newby) that other users can repair later. If new software causes us extra work, purely because of problems in the software itself, the software is absolutely not ready to set on by default. And we are not talking about an extra tool but about a basic functionality that is going to be used massively with many many changes in many pages. The first priority is having the software work well on a basic level (and the servers in general). The second priority is to attract more new editors. Until this event, I thought the dev process to be broken, not just the communication around devs. But now I believe the conflict runs deeper. It points out an issue we (community and WMF) should discuss, in a more general sense. What should the decision process be for technical changes? When does the Foundation get precendence, and when should the community have the last word? What weight should small-scale votes of editors have? Should random polls be done, and included in such votes? Etc. The MediaViewer affair itself gets blown out of proportion IMO. I fully agree. If a community really has serious problems, these should be carefully considered and the community should be attacked on various ways by WMF. At the current situation, WMF thinks in my opinion to lightly about the role of the community, and to lightly about how she can behave towards a community. We all want the best of each other, than this is not the way to do that. Romaine ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you
2014-08-13 2:46 GMT+02:00 svetlana svetl...@fastmail.com.au: On Tue, 12 Aug 2014, at 23:42, Romaine Wiki wrote: That the community reacts the way it does now, is because they care very much about the site and they notice something is terrible going wrong on WMF side and too less is done to fix those problems/issues! if the community was not so willing to use force (ie a js hack) against the other party You miss a very important thing here: the community does not want to use such measure at all, but is forced to this by the inappropriate behaviour of some WMF staff. The community gets the feeling that it isn't listened to, while it has serious points and considerations which are stepped over too lightly. And as I said before, we are all on the same ship. Sure a captain must make decisions, but if parts have serious comments, issues, and critics, such should not be ignored. instead of talking properly then the superprotect wouldn't exist at all you seeing the problem there? whose problem is it? desire to act out of the blue instead of collaborating they didn't collaborate at all they added the js hack as if it was something urgent, that needs saving people from i would only do this if someone added a virus into mv by mistake this community thinks that its power structures allow to tromp onto other people I do not think the community thinks that way. Members of the community can make mistake and staff members of WMF can make mistakes, I think that both that community and WMF are grown up enough to correct mistakes if they arise. Certainly inside the community are many critical people who watch these kind of things carefully and do correct those things when a mistake is made. The German community did collaborate, did communicate. Having a voting is a desperate way of getting the attention of the big problems WMF has too little insight in apparently. The community does not think in power structures, WMF does. Just as in 2013, again the problems start inside WMF and not in the community, and the community reacts on it. Romaine ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Board Meeting Update
Dear all, Since many have asked why I'm stepping off the board when my term ends Dec 2014: there's no dramatic reason - it's the compulsions of time. Being on the WMF board is immensely satisfying but also a big time commitment that I find increasingly hard to sustain. I intend to be around in the movement, doing other things. Best Bishakha On Sat, Aug 9, 2014 at 3:25 PM, Anders Wennersten m...@anderswennersten.se wrote: Many wise decisions as I see it. It is important with continuity and hands on experience from the movement and our projects in the Board. But the identified missing competence in the Board of management experience is still not resolved..(something for December appointment?) And congratulations to Patricio, nice to see his good insights and competence being even more used in the Board Anders Jan-Bart de Vreede skrev 2014-08-08 15:24: Hello Everyone While the minutes of the Board of Trustees meeting will arrive in due time I wanted to update you on some internal matters at this point because there have been some changes in the board composition. Ana Toni joined our board last year but unfortunately the time demands placed upon a Wikimedia Board member were not compatible with her other commitments. This has given the board something to think about. We aim to be a board that is able to incorporate outside expertise to increase our effectiveness and possible candidates are often not able to commit the time which we currently require.. In the coming period we want to have a look at the time which is demanded of a board member (especially our in person meetings which require a lot of travel) and look at which activities we need to perform as a board. We want to thank Ana for her contributions. The insights gained from her position as Chair of Greenpeace International were especially useful to us as a board. We are sad to see her go, but we hope to keep her in “our space”. Bishakha Datta joined our board in March 2010 and has indicated to us that she is not available for re-appointment after her term runs out in December of this year. We will take the time to properly thank her for her great contributions when her term formally ends in December. While these things are part of of the normal turnover of the composition of the board (and are also an opportunity to attract new fields of expertise as needed) there is a matter of board stability during the first year of the tenure of our new Executive Director. In response to Lila's request for stability the board has decided the following: 1) Alice Wiegand was appointed to finish out Ana's term ending December 2014. We also appointed Alice to carry out the subsequent term ending December 2016. 2) Last year at Wikimania I was appointed to the board for a two year period, but I tendered my resignation effective the end of this year. At the Board's request I reconsidered that resignation, and will serve out the rest of my original two year term ending December 2015. This does mean we will start the search process for a new board member for the appointed seat that Bishakha will vacate at the end of this year. And hopefully we will be able to also identify potential candidates to fill the seats of both Stuart West and me, which will become vacant at the end of 2015. Secondly we have appointed the two officer positions as follows for the coming fiscal year Chair - Jan-Bart de Vreede Vice-Chair - Patricio Lorente The foundation has a great opportunity to grow under the guidance of our new Executive Director and realize our ambitions. The board is looking forward to a year of supporting Lila and providing direction for our strategic goals. Jan-Bart de Vreede Chair Board of Trustees Wikimedia Foundation PS: All the relevant resolutions will be published on meta in the coming days ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you
On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 6:26 PM, Erik Moeller e...@wikimedia.org wrote: On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 4:57 PM, Magnus Manske magnusman...@googlemail.com wrote: Like many other old hands, it seems to get in the way of my workflow. Not an issue for me, as long as I can turn it off. hehe, i suppose investing a million $$ to get you turning it off because it is in your way is probably not the goal :) It's probably fine for modern viewing, although it's hard to guess that you get to the file page via the little Commons icon for people who (in all likelihood) have never seen that icon, or visited Commons. Indeed, the icon to the File: page is currently very opaque. We're preparing for a round of possible changes to the viewing experience, potentially including - moving caption above the fold so readers don't have to hunt for it - moving disable action above-the-fold - potentially eliminating the below-the-fold panel entirely - emphasizing the File: page more prominently as the canonical source of metadata - separating out download/use actions more clearly These changes will need to be carefully tested/validated. If you want to take a look at an early early (!) prototype (!!), see http://multimedia-alpha.wmflabs.org/wiki/Lightbox_demo , but please magnus, do these changes make you turn it on again? if not, what would need to be better? i think there is two kinds of feedback. (1) technical / feature / workflow issues. like i cannot tag easy, esc leaves mediaviewer instead of fullscreen, browser zoom (ctrl-/+) does not work. X takes one click more now. i d love this to be taken into account. while i find design issues more difficult. the whole user experience needs, at least imo, consistency. tinkering here and there may quite heavily break that. better would be to encourage getting alternative full designs. if this would include how to clean the commons page ... but that might be too much :) rupert ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
