Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fwd: Shared list

[Oliver Keyes]

Thanks Anthony; it's really appreciated. I want to make clear that I'm
not saying "don't disagree!" - of course people can disagree. Hell,
we're Wikipedians. Even if nobody was disagreeing we'd disagree with
ourselves ;).

On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 2:54 AM, Anthony Cole  wrote:
> I'm listening to this, and thank you all. I'll try to be less ... whatever
> that is I'm being. I do know what you mean, and I'll tone it down. Oliver,
> I had/have no intention of minimising the hurt felt by those involved. I
> apologise if I gave that impression. But some of those hurt people have
> been dishing out - en masse - a world of pain, themselves. I understand the
> dynamic at play here.
>
> In my defence - though I know it's no justification - I'm deeply affronted
> by what's been happening here and, especially, on WW. I see its provenance
> - the almost inevitability of it, given a hands-off (read that as slow,
> ineffectual, irresponsible, mostly stupid and arrogant) board. But still,
> this has been just awful to watch, and the behaviour of some here and
> elsewhere has been truly, truly trashy.
>
> I shall try to improve my game.
>
> PS:
>
> That's the first time I've ever made public a private email. Literally.
> Ever. I assume it will be the last. That kind of thing, bullying people
> into silence, quietly, off-list, is IMNSHO, poor behaviour, billinghurst.
>
> Anthony Cole
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 3:09 PM, Benjamin Lees  wrote:
>
>> Someone complained to you off-list about the amount you're posting to
>> the list.  You immediately forwarded his email to the list.  Is this
>> the best approach?
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 12:13 AM, Anthony Cole 
>> wrote:
>> > I thought I was bringing a sorely under-represented perspective to the ED
>> > discussion on this list and wasn't aware I'd said or done anything
>> > inappropriate here.
>>
>> Well, Oliver Keyes said, 3 days ago:
>>
>> > Speaking as both a volunteer and staff, Anthony, I have found your
>> > attitude in this conversation and others on the subject to be deeply
>> > unproductive. It would be good if you spent more time asking questions
>> > and less time dismissing people's concerns.
>>
>>
>> For my part, I think it's inappropriate to, for example, take
>> someone's statement: "I restrained from expressing publicly any issues
>> I might have with your own performance; I would love you to not spread
>> covert allegations on my performace and professional attitude" and
>> proceed to "it is used as proof she's "literally Hitler"."  My
>> guidance would be to think carefully about the way you're responding
>> to others and whether you would like to be responded to in that way.
>>
>> ___
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> 
>>
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 
> 

___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fwd: Shared list

[Oliver Keyes]

On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 3:54 AM, Theo10011  wrote:
> I am totally with Benjamin on this.
>
> On Tue, Feb 23, 2016, Oliver Keyes  wrote:
>
>> "sorely under-represented perspective" or not, that kind of attitude
>> is of course going to piss people off. And it may be that denying the
>> value of peoples' experiences or dismissing their misery is not, in
>> fact, what you mean to be communicating. But it is how it's coming
>> out. For me, at least, that's why I find your emails frustrating.
>>
>
> That is an odd way to dismiss any counter-argument - it is going to piss
> you or others off? You are the only staff member so far objecting to any
> dissenting view, existentially. I'm sure you would prefer no dissent should
> exist at all because you are having a miserable time, just 100 people
> piling on one?
>
> I see the conversation heavily leaning in one direction - against Lila. She
> is overwhelmingly being blamed, accused and rebutted by just about every
> member on this list - in unofficial and official channels. This includes
> the staff, community members and even past board members. Anything short of
> calling her literally the worst or comparison her to lady hitler will not
> be moving things any further than they are.
>
> A few staff members like Brion, expressed dissent to Lila's assertion, but
> wonderfully well. They offered counter-arguments, and provided context we
> all needed. Dissent is necessary, it moves the conversation along. You are
> in essence doing what your senior management was accused of, silencing
> criticism internally because you are having a rough time. I'm sure it
> doesn't feel nice.

Well, no. They're entirely different things. I'm happy to turn that
into a longer discussion if you're genuinely interested in what I see
as the difference, but I appreciate that may not be the case.

>
> Regards
> Theo
>
> PS Anthony, you shouldn't have sent a private email to the list.
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 
> 

___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fwd: Shared list

[Anthony Cole]

Theo wrote: "PS Anthony, you shouldn't have sent a private email to the
list."

Yep. It won't happen again. It was an over-reaction to exactly what you're
calling out in your post: people having the temerity to tell others to shut
up, based mainly on their discomfort with the view being put. I despise it
on Wikipedia - where it happens a very great deal, and I'm disappointed to
see it happening here - especially in secret emails. When I pressed "send"
I was thinking billinghurst didn't deserve the courtesy of that convention,
if that's how he uses it. I was wrong.

(Sorry about calling the board names in my last post. Habit. I'll reign it
in, a bit.)

Anthony Cole


On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 4:54 PM, Theo10011  wrote:

> I am totally with Benjamin on this.
>
> On Tue, Feb 23, 2016, Oliver Keyes  wrote:
>
> > "sorely under-represented perspective" or not, that kind of attitude
> > is of course going to piss people off. And it may be that denying the
> > value of peoples' experiences or dismissing their misery is not, in
> > fact, what you mean to be communicating. But it is how it's coming
> > out. For me, at least, that's why I find your emails frustrating.
> >
>
> That is an odd way to dismiss any counter-argument - it is going to piss
> you or others off? You are the only staff member so far objecting to any
> dissenting view, existentially. I'm sure you would prefer no dissent should
> exist at all because you are having a miserable time, just 100 people
> piling on one?
>
> I see the conversation heavily leaning in one direction - against Lila. She
> is overwhelmingly being blamed, accused and rebutted by just about every
> member on this list - in unofficial and official channels. This includes
> the staff, community members and even past board members. Anything short of
> calling her literally the worst or comparison her to lady hitler will not
> be moving things any further than they are.
>
> A few staff members like Brion, expressed dissent to Lila's assertion, but
> wonderfully well. They offered counter-arguments, and provided context we
> all needed. Dissent is necessary, it moves the conversation along. You are
> in essence doing what your senior management was accused of, silencing
> criticism internally because you are having a rough time. I'm sure it
> doesn't feel nice.
>
> Regards
> Theo
>
> PS Anthony, you shouldn't have sent a private email to the list.
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
>
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fwd: Shared list

[Theo10011]

I am totally with Benjamin on this.

On Tue, Feb 23, 2016, Oliver Keyes  wrote:

> "sorely under-represented perspective" or not, that kind of attitude
> is of course going to piss people off. And it may be that denying the
> value of peoples' experiences or dismissing their misery is not, in
> fact, what you mean to be communicating. But it is how it's coming
> out. For me, at least, that's why I find your emails frustrating.
>

That is an odd way to dismiss any counter-argument - it is going to piss
you or others off? You are the only staff member so far objecting to any
dissenting view, existentially. I'm sure you would prefer no dissent should
exist at all because you are having a miserable time, just 100 people
piling on one?

I see the conversation heavily leaning in one direction - against Lila. She
is overwhelmingly being blamed, accused and rebutted by just about every
member on this list - in unofficial and official channels. This includes
the staff, community members and even past board members. Anything short of
calling her literally the worst or comparison her to lady hitler will not
be moving things any further than they are.

A few staff members like Brion, expressed dissent to Lila's assertion, but
wonderfully well. They offered counter-arguments, and provided context we
all needed. Dissent is necessary, it moves the conversation along. You are
in essence doing what your senior management was accused of, silencing
criticism internally because you are having a rough time. I'm sure it
doesn't feel nice.

Regards
Theo

PS Anthony, you shouldn't have sent a private email to the list.
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fwd: Shared list

[Austin Hair]

On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 9:37 AM, Andrea Zanni  wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 6:31 AM, Gerard Meijssen 
> wrote:
>
>> You are not the only one who is told that dissent is not appreciated. It is
>> ironic that when openness and shared values are considered, these same
>> values are swept under the rug when people are not in line with "common"
>> thought.
>>
>> Apparently thoughts are not so common and certainly not universally shared.
>> When community degenerates in universal enforced thought, are we still a
>> community?
>>
>
>
> Gerard, you're only one, to my knowledge, always fulfilling the soft quota
> of 30 emails per month, +1 or 2 message. In February you're already at 31
> [1].
>

For the record, Gerard absolutely understands the 30-post limit, is
always very careful to keep it +/- 2 messages, and yes, I could still
see a little more restraint on his part. We do have a sort of detente,
and yes, he's already been warned privately this month.

This said, he does contribute positively to the list, and I even
consider him a friend. But even friends need a little nudging from
time to time, it's true.

Austin

___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fwd: Shared list

[Andrea Zanni]

On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 6:31 AM, Gerard Meijssen 
wrote:

> You are not the only one who is told that dissent is not appreciated. It is
> ironic that when openness and shared values are considered, these same
> values are swept under the rug when people are not in line with "common"
> thought.
>
> Apparently thoughts are not so common and certainly not universally shared.
> When community degenerates in universal enforced thought, are we still a
> community?
>


Gerard, you're only one, to my knowledge, always fulfilling the soft quota
of 30 emails per month, +1 or 2 message. In February you're already at 31
[1].

Openness and shared values, IMHO, should include also "empathy":
which means care, attention, proactive listening to others. It means say
something when you need to and carefully craft the message for others to
understand.
This both keeps a good signal/noise ratio and also it's good for a
multicultural, diverse community as we are.
It also means leaving others the space (in this case, silence) to express
themselves. I personally don't have problems with your opinions, just with
the tone and frequency of those.

Again, IMHO, the assumption that fierce, logic but aggressive debate is
welcome at anytime and anywhere is probably the biggest fallacy in the
whole Wikimedia movement (just because we're white nerdy males, and we just
roll like that).

Sorry all for the OT.

Aubrey

[1]
https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2016-February/author.html
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fwd: Shared list

[Anthony Cole]

I'm listening to this, and thank you all. I'll try to be less ... whatever
that is I'm being. I do know what you mean, and I'll tone it down. Oliver,
I had/have no intention of minimising the hurt felt by those involved. I
apologise if I gave that impression. But some of those hurt people have
been dishing out - en masse - a world of pain, themselves. I understand the
dynamic at play here.

In my defence - though I know it's no justification - I'm deeply affronted
by what's been happening here and, especially, on WW. I see its provenance
- the almost inevitability of it, given a hands-off (read that as slow,
ineffectual, irresponsible, mostly stupid and arrogant) board. But still,
this has been just awful to watch, and the behaviour of some here and
elsewhere has been truly, truly trashy.

I shall try to improve my game.

PS:

That's the first time I've ever made public a private email. Literally.
Ever. I assume it will be the last. That kind of thing, bullying people
into silence, quietly, off-list, is IMNSHO, poor behaviour, billinghurst.

Anthony Cole


On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 3:09 PM, Benjamin Lees  wrote:

> Someone complained to you off-list about the amount you're posting to
> the list.  You immediately forwarded his email to the list.  Is this
> the best approach?
>
> On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 12:13 AM, Anthony Cole 
> wrote:
> > I thought I was bringing a sorely under-represented perspective to the ED
> > discussion on this list and wasn't aware I'd said or done anything
> > inappropriate here.
>
> Well, Oliver Keyes said, 3 days ago:
>
> > Speaking as both a volunteer and staff, Anthony, I have found your
> > attitude in this conversation and others on the subject to be deeply
> > unproductive. It would be good if you spent more time asking questions
> > and less time dismissing people's concerns.
>
>
> For my part, I think it's inappropriate to, for example, take
> someone's statement: "I restrained from expressing publicly any issues
> I might have with your own performance; I would love you to not spread
> covert allegations on my performace and professional attitude" and
> proceed to "it is used as proof she's "literally Hitler"."  My
> guidance would be to think carefully about the way you're responding
> to others and whether you would like to be responded to in that way.
>
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
>
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fwd: Shared list

[Benjamin Lees]

Someone complained to you off-list about the amount you're posting to
the list.  You immediately forwarded his email to the list.  Is this
the best approach?

On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 12:13 AM, Anthony Cole  wrote:
> I thought I was bringing a sorely under-represented perspective to the ED
> discussion on this list and wasn't aware I'd said or done anything
> inappropriate here.

Well, Oliver Keyes said, 3 days ago:

> Speaking as both a volunteer and staff, Anthony, I have found your
> attitude in this conversation and others on the subject to be deeply
> unproductive. It would be good if you spent more time asking questions
> and less time dismissing people's concerns.


For my part, I think it's inappropriate to, for example, take
someone's statement: "I restrained from expressing publicly any issues
I might have with your own performance; I would love you to not spread
covert allegations on my performace and professional attitude" and
proceed to "it is used as proof she's "literally Hitler"."  My
guidance would be to think carefully about the way you're responding
to others and whether you would like to be responded to in that way.

___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fwd: Shared list

[Oliver Keyes]

If I might provide at least my, minor, perspective: there is a big
difference between "perspective" and "dissent" and some of your
communiques.

People, particularly at the Foundation, are hurting a lot right now.
And the tone of your messages has been a lot of: justifying actual
people being in actual pain and misery. "Lila is making great
changes!" "yes, but people are so hurt by the way it's been going on
they're going on _MEDICAL LEAVE_" "Oh yes but I support her continuing
work!"

"sorely under-represented perspective" or not, that kind of attitude
is of course going to piss people off. And it may be that denying the
value of peoples' experiences or dismissing their misery is not, in
fact, what you mean to be communicating. But it is how it's coming
out. For me, at least, that's why I find your emails frustrating.


On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 12:13 AM, Anthony Cole  wrote:
> I've just received this from someone called billinghurst:
>
> "Please stop this rebuttal of people's statements. Their opinions are as
> valuable, if not more valuable than yours as statements. Your name is
> appearing too often IMNSHO."
>
> I thought I was bringing a sorely under-represented perspective to the ED
> discussion on this list and wasn't aware I'd said or done anything
> inappropriate here. I sincerely apologise if I have, but I'll need a bit
> more guidance if that's the case. I see a lot of rebutting going on here. I
> thought civil rebuttal was how rational argument progressed. But I've been
> wrong before.
>
>
> -- Forwarded message --
> From: billinghurst 
> Date: Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 4:04 AM
> Subject: Shared list
> To: ahcole...@gmail.com
>
>
> Please stop this rebuttal of people's statements. Their opinions are as
> valuable, if not more valuable than yours as statements. Your name is
> appearing too often IMNSHO.
>
> - b
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 
> 

___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fwd: Shared list

[Gerard Meijssen]

Hoi,
You are not the only one who is told that dissent is not appreciated. It is
ironic that when openness and shared values are considered, these same
values are swept under the rug when people are not in line with "common"
thought.

Apparently thoughts are not so common and certainly not universally shared.
When community degenerates in universal enforced thought, are we still a
community?
Thanks,
GerardM

On 23 February 2016 at 06:13, Anthony Cole  wrote:

> I've just received this from someone called billinghurst:
>
> "Please stop this rebuttal of people's statements. Their opinions are as
> valuable, if not more valuable than yours as statements. Your name is
> appearing too often IMNSHO."
>
> I thought I was bringing a sorely under-represented perspective to the ED
> discussion on this list and wasn't aware I'd said or done anything
> inappropriate here. I sincerely apologise if I have, but I'll need a bit
> more guidance if that's the case. I see a lot of rebutting going on here. I
> thought civil rebuttal was how rational argument progressed. But I've been
> wrong before.
>
>
> -- Forwarded message --
> From: billinghurst 
> Date: Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 4:04 AM
> Subject: Shared list
> To: ahcole...@gmail.com
>
>
> Please stop this rebuttal of people's statements. Their opinions are as
> valuable, if not more valuable than yours as statements. Your name is
> appearing too often IMNSHO.
>
> - b
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fwd: Shared list

[Pete Forsyth]

Anthony, two points:

1. Billinghurst is a very long-serving community member, and has always in
my experience been happy to talk things through. I'd urge you just to talk
with him directly.

2. Tension is high right now. If we're irritating each other more than
usual, keep that in mind...it may be a factor.

-Pete
[[User:Peteforsyth]]

On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 9:13 PM, Anthony Cole  wrote:

> I've just received this from someone called billinghurst:
>
> "Please stop this rebuttal of people's statements. Their opinions are as
> valuable, if not more valuable than yours as statements. Your name is
> appearing too often IMNSHO."
>
> I thought I was bringing a sorely under-represented perspective to the ED
> discussion on this list and wasn't aware I'd said or done anything
> inappropriate here. I sincerely apologise if I have, but I'll need a bit
> more guidance if that's the case. I see a lot of rebutting going on here. I
> thought civil rebuttal was how rational argument progressed. But I've been
> wrong before.
>
>
> -- Forwarded message --
> From: billinghurst 
> Date: Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 4:04 AM
> Subject: Shared list
> To: ahcole...@gmail.com
>
>
> Please stop this rebuttal of people's statements. Their opinions are as
> valuable, if not more valuable than yours as statements. Your name is
> appearing too often IMNSHO.
>
> - b
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,