Re: [WISPA] [Motorola II] Broadband work with Indian Reservation

[Blair Davis]

I can't help with the politics, but based on experience, cash only...

Sam Tetherow wrote:

  Rather than kill the thread, can we drag it back on topic, kicking and 
screaming if we have to.

It appears that we have a group of people that are trying to put 
together some action that will bring broadband to reservations and they 
have asked for WISPA's input.  Whether they can be successful or not is 
yet to be seen but I would hate to see the discussion squelched just 
because a minority want to go off on tangents about social injustice 
perceived or otherwise.

Rick is looking for input from those that have dealt with tribal 
entities in the course of their business, good or bad, maybe we can get 
some pointers on how to handle it better, maybe we can get some 
references from an organization that is respected in the native 
community that will help smooth out some of the bumps, potholes or 
gaping chasms in the road to providing service to indian lands.

I for one would appreciate any assistance I could get in navigating 
tribal politics.

	Sam Tetherow
	Sandhills Wireless



On 08/13/2010 09:16 PM, Jerry Richardson wrote:
  
  
Wow. Can we kill this thread now before it erupts in flames?

Jerry Richardson
Sent Mobile

On Aug 13, 2010, at 7:12 PM, "MDK"  wrote:



  YOu have it all wrong.

Suppose you live in a land where your culture is incapable of
dealing with
the rest of the world around it, but the "invaders" are bleeding
hearts who
"give" you land and let you try to "continue" your incompatible
culture
unchanged in a world where it is outdated, outmoded and incapable of
survival.   In which case, the powers that be grant you money to
live on
while you pretend to pursue the "preservation" of your dead and
unviable
culture.It leads to a mess, a huge mess, a world of despondency,
want,
dependency and hopelessness.

Ya'll need to understand that the indian wars were never over
land.The
"ownership" culture of the whole rest of the world was irrelevant.
Instead, the wars were fought over the idea that the world was being
transformed around them, and some believed they should fight it,
rather than
adjust.   IT was a fight over resources - the kind of inter-tribal
conflict
that had gone on for centuries untold - except it wasn't a fight
against
another tribe, it was a fight against a culture armed with knowledge,
technology, communication, law, and wealth.   And neither understood
it.

Had we handed the western half of the country to the "natives" and
just drew
a line around them and made it "do not cross" boundaries, the
failures of
the various cultures would still have occurred, and so would have the
diseases, and so on.And worse, people with less scruples than the
schmucks who "wrote treaties" with them, would have invaded for the
wealth
and simply wiped 'em out.

Sadly, reservations did nobody any favors, it perpetuated the myth
that
primitive culture can survive a modern world and that you can mix
the two
with impunity, using political considerations as the measuring cup.

We know that cultures CAN adapt to both the knowledge and science of
the
world around them, and can adapt to changes in ideas about rights and
ownership and written law, etc.   Modern indians want the consumer
trappings
of modern life... while living without the cultural qualities that
made it
possible to achieve them - or at least the reservation mentality
seeks to
keep it that way.

I've ranted long enough off topic...   Let's just leave at this :
Reservation mentality and attempts to "preserve" cultures unchanged
are
exercises in a level of imbecility so monumental, with results so
horrible,
it is simply a crime against humanity.




++
Neofast, Inc, Making internet easy
541-969-8200  509-386-4589
++

--------------
From: "Fred Goldstein"
Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 4:52 PM
To:; "WISPA General List"
Subject: Re: [WISPA] [Motorola II] Broadband work with Indian
Reservation

  
  
At 8/13/2010 04:15 PM, lakeland wrote:


  Hm. How do you become a soverign nation?
  

Well, you start by having a big country.  Then you get invaded and
settled by people with better weapons, and diseases that wipe out 90%
of your population. Then wars are fought which kill more of them and
take away more land, settled with treaties supposedly guaranteeing
them sovereignty on at least limited land.  Then the survivors are
forced off their land, at least all of the good land, into deserts
and small reservations, where they're mistreated for another
century.  Finally they get good lawyers and lobbyists and open
casinos.



  Sounds like its a lot better than being a WISP or an
I

Re: [WISPA] [Motorola II] Broadband work with Indian Reservation

[Robert West]

I Yam What I Yam.

 

  Popeye - 1936

 

From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of RickG
Sent: Sunday, August 15, 2010 2:27 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] [Motorola II] Broadband work with Indian Reservation

 

I can identify!

On Sat, Aug 14, 2010 at 11:16 AM, Fred Goldstein 
wrote:

At 8/14/2010 02:35 AM, RickG wrote:



Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on who you were) that same outcome
has not happened for other races in similar situations in mankind's past
history. Maybe there wasn't enough lawyers back in the ancient days? So, in
the modern era, it's no longer "only the strong survive" but rather, only
the best lawyer survives?

 

I made a one-paragraph quip in response to another, and the thread went off
kilter, so I'm avoiding those side issues now like the plague...






No matter, it would be interesting to be involved with a tribal roll out of
a high end network.  

 

Indeed.  The first time I used RadioMobile was several years ago, when the
local (Indian) ISP from a tribe in the plains region inquired about putting
up a wireless network across the reservation.  The total population density
was about one person per square mile, with a couple of small towns.  Most of
the reservation's phone service, mainly the biggest town, came from an
off-reservation coop and the Indians didn't like them.  So we talked about
building a WISP network with a CLEC to deliver wireless local loop.  The
reservation was basically flat with not many trees, ideal wireless country.
SkyPilot boxes would have given a 10-mile radius between hops.  He would own
it; I would be his consultant.

But then he stopped returning calls.  Another tribe's telco had won 700 MHz
licenses in the first (2002) auction, and was doing wireless DOCSIS, and had
this guy's reservation in their footprint. So they became the WISP.  I
assume it's working, since the FCC web site last year showed them inquiring
if they would meet the build-out deadline, or lose the license, and they
said that they had it up and running on time.




On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 7:52 PM, Fred Goldstein 
wrote:

At 8/13/2010 04:15 PM, lakeland wrote:

>Hm. How do you become a soverign nation?

Well, you start by having a big country.  Then you get invaded and

settled by people with better weapons, and diseases that wipe out 90%

of your population. Then wars are fought which kill more of them and

take away more land, settled with treaties supposedly guaranteeing

them sovereignty on at least limited land.  Then the survivors are

forced off their land, at least all of the good land, into deserts

and small reservations, where they're mistreated for another

century.  Finally they get good lawyers and lobbyists and open casinos.

>Sounds like its a lot better than being a WISP or an Integrator.  :-)

When you add it all up, I don't really think so. :-(



 --

 Fred Goldsteink1io   fgoldstein "at" ionary.com

 ionary Consulting  http://www.ionary.com/

 +1 617 795 2701








 

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 ionary Consultinghttp://www.ionary.com/ 
 +1 617 795 2701






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Re: [WISPA] [Motorola II] Broadband work with Indian Reservation

[RickG]

I can identify!

On Sat, Aug 14, 2010 at 11:16 AM, Fred Goldstein wrote:

>  At 8/14/2010 02:35 AM, RickG wrote:
>
> Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on who you were) that same outcome
> has not happened for other races in similar situations in mankind's past
> history. Maybe there wasn't enough lawyers back in the ancient days? So, in
> the modern era, it's no longer "only the strong survive" but rather, only
> the best lawyer survives?
>
>
> I made a one-paragraph quip in response to another, and the thread went off
> kilter, so I'm avoiding those side issues now like the plague...
>
>
> No matter, it would be interesting to be involved with a tribal roll out of
> a high end network.
>
>
> Indeed.  The first time I used RadioMobile was several years ago, when the
> local (Indian) ISP from a tribe in the plains region inquired about putting
> up a wireless network across the reservation.  The total population density
> was about one person per square mile, with a couple of small towns.  Most of
> the reservation's phone service, mainly the biggest town, came from an
> off-reservation coop and the Indians didn't like them.  So we talked about
> building a WISP network with a CLEC to deliver wireless local loop.  The
> reservation was basically flat with not many trees, ideal wireless country.
> SkyPilot boxes would have given a 10-mile radius between hops.  He would own
> it; I would be his consultant.
>
> But then he stopped returning calls.  Another tribe's telco had won 700 MHz
> licenses in the first (2002) auction, and was doing wireless DOCSIS, and had
> this guy's reservation in their footprint. So they became the WISP.  I
> assume it's working, since the FCC web site last year showed them inquiring
> if they would meet the build-out deadline, or lose the license, and they
> said that they had it up and running on time.
>
> On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 7:52 PM, Fred Goldstein 
> wrote:
>  At 8/13/2010 04:15 PM, lakeland wrote:
> >Hm. How do you become a soverign nation?
>
> Well, you start by having a big country.  Then you get invaded and
> settled by people with better weapons, and diseases that wipe out 90%
> of your population. Then wars are fought which kill more of them and
> take away more land, settled with treaties supposedly guaranteeing
> them sovereignty on at least limited land.  Then the survivors are
> forced off their land, at least all of the good land, into deserts
> and small reservations, where they're mistreated for another
> century.  Finally they get good lawyers and lobbyists and open casinos.
>
> >Sounds like its a lot better than being a WISP or an Integrator.  :-)
>
> When you add it all up, I don't really think so. :-(
>
>
>  --
>  Fred Goldsteink1io   fgoldstein "at" ionary.com
>  ionary Consulting  http://www.ionary.com/
>  +1 617 795 2701
>
>
>
> 
>
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>  http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>
>
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
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>
> 
>
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>
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>
>   --
>
>  Fred Goldsteink1io   fgoldstein "at" ionary.com
>  ionary Consultinghttp://www.ionary.com/
>  +1 617 795 2701
>
>
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
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>
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
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Re: [WISPA] [Motorola II] Broadband work with Indian Reservation

[Fred Goldstein]

At 8/14/2010 02:35 AM, RickG wrote:
Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on who you were) that same 
outcome has not happened for other races in similar situations in 
mankind's past history. Maybe there wasn't enough lawyers back in 
the ancient days? So, in the modern era, it's no longer "only the 
strong survive" but rather, only the best lawyer survives?


I made a one-paragraph quip in response to another, and the thread 
went off kilter, so I'm avoiding those side issues now like the plague...


No matter, it would be interesting to be involved with a tribal roll 
out of a high end network.


Indeed.  The first time I used RadioMobile was several years ago, 
when the local (Indian) ISP from a tribe in the plains region 
inquired about putting up a wireless network across the 
reservation.  The total population density was about one person per 
square mile, with a couple of small towns.  Most of the reservation's 
phone service, mainly the biggest town, came from an off-reservation 
coop and the Indians didn't like them.  So we talked about building a 
WISP network with a CLEC to deliver wireless local loop.  The 
reservation was basically flat with not many trees, ideal wireless 
country. SkyPilot boxes would have given a 10-mile radius between 
hops.  He would own it; I would be his consultant.


But then he stopped returning calls.  Another tribe's telco had won 
700 MHz licenses in the first (2002) auction, and was doing wireless 
DOCSIS, and had this guy's reservation in their footprint. So they 
became the WISP.  I assume it's working, since the FCC web site last 
year showed them inquiring if they would meet the build-out deadline, 
or lose the license, and they said that they had it up and running on time.


On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 7:52 PM, Fred Goldstein 
<fgoldst...@ionary.com> wrote:

At 8/13/2010 04:15 PM, lakeland wrote:
>Hm. How do you become a soverign nation?

Well, you start by having a big country.  Then you get invaded and
settled by people with better weapons, and diseases that wipe out 90%
of your population. Then wars are fought which kill more of them and
take away more land, settled with treaties supposedly guaranteeing
them sovereignty on at least limited land.  Then the survivors are
forced off their land, at least all of the good land, into deserts
and small reservations, where they're mistreated for another
century.  Finally they get good lawyers and lobbyists and open casinos.

>Sounds like its a lot better than being a WISP or an Integrator.  :-)

When you add it all up, I don't really think so. :-(


 --
 Fred Goldsteink1io   fgoldstein "at" ionary.com
 ionary 
Consulting  http://www.ionary.com/

 +1 617 795 2701




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 ionary Consulting  http://www.ionary.com/
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Re: [WISPA] [Motorola II] Broadband work with Indian Reservation

[Mike]

You could be talking about the Amish.  We have three distinct groups here in
Iowa.  They are prosperous and very clannish. 

Mike Gilchrist
Disruptive Technologist
Advanced Wireless Express
P.O. Box 255
Toledo, IA   52342
239.770.6203
m...@aweiowa.com
 

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of MDK
Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 9:11 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] [Motorola II] Broadband work with Indian Reservation

YOu have it all wrong.

Suppose you live in a land where your culture is incapable of dealing with 
the rest of the world around it, but the "invaders" are bleeding hearts who 
"give" you land and let you try to "continue" your incompatible culture 
unchanged in a world where it is outdated, outmoded and incapable of 
survival. ... 





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Re: [WISPA] [Motorola II] Broadband work with Indian Reservation

[Robert West]

And you would then lose your equipment, your investment and your ass while
they smiled and told you how your paperwork was in error.

 

I was given the low down by the common tribal folk.  They play both sides of
the fence.  Once you cross that reservation border, all the rules change and
you have no idea what they have changed to.  The regular folk are just like
you and I but the "elders" are the greedy money men.  

 

Bob-

 

Or

 

He who glows like pig.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of RickG
Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 2:35 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] [Motorola II] Broadband work with Indian Reservation

 

Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on who you were) that same outcome
has not happened for other races in similar situations in mankind's past
history. Maybe there wasn't enough lawyers back in the ancient days? So, in
the modern era, it's no longer "only the strong survive" but rather, only
the best lawyer survives?

 

No matter, it would be interesting to be involved with a tribal roll out of
a high end network.  

On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 7:52 PM, Fred Goldstein 
wrote:

At 8/13/2010 04:15 PM, lakeland wrote:
>Hm. How do you become a soverign nation?

Well, you start by having a big country.  Then you get invaded and
settled by people with better weapons, and diseases that wipe out 90%
of your population. Then wars are fought which kill more of them and
take away more land, settled with treaties supposedly guaranteeing
them sovereignty on at least limited land.  Then the survivors are
forced off their land, at least all of the good land, into deserts
and small reservations, where they're mistreated for another
century.  Finally they get good lawyers and lobbyists and open casinos.


>Sounds like its a lot better than being a WISP or an Integrator.  :-)

When you add it all up, I don't really think so. :-(


 --
 Fred Goldsteink1io   fgoldstein "at" ionary.com
 ionary Consulting  http://www.ionary.com/
 +1 617 795 2701






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Re: [WISPA] [Motorola II] Broadband work with Indian Reservation

[RickG]

No flaming arrows now! 

On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 10:16 PM, Jerry Richardson  wrote:

> Wow. Can we kill this thread now before it erupts in flames?
>
> Jerry Richardson
> Sent Mobile
>
> On Aug 13, 2010, at 7:12 PM, "MDK"  wrote:
>
> > YOu have it all wrong.
> >
> > Suppose you live in a land where your culture is incapable of
> > dealing with
> > the rest of the world around it, but the "invaders" are bleeding
> > hearts who
> > "give" you land and let you try to "continue" your incompatible
> > culture
> > unchanged in a world where it is outdated, outmoded and incapable of
> > survival.   In which case, the powers that be grant you money to
> > live on
> > while you pretend to pursue the "preservation" of your dead and
> > unviable
> > culture.It leads to a mess, a huge mess, a world of despondency,
> > want,
> > dependency and hopelessness.
> >
> > Ya'll need to understand that the indian wars were never over
> > land.The
> > "ownership" culture of the whole rest of the world was irrelevant.
> > Instead, the wars were fought over the idea that the world was being
> > transformed around them, and some believed they should fight it,
> > rather than
> > adjust.   IT was a fight over resources - the kind of inter-tribal
> > conflict
> > that had gone on for centuries untold - except it wasn't a fight
> > against
> > another tribe, it was a fight against a culture armed with knowledge,
> > technology, communication, law, and wealth.   And neither understood
> > it.
> >
> > Had we handed the western half of the country to the "natives" and
> > just drew
> > a line around them and made it "do not cross" boundaries, the
> > failures of
> > the various cultures would still have occurred, and so would have the
> > diseases, and so on.And worse, people with less scruples than the
> > schmucks who "wrote treaties" with them, would have invaded for the
> > wealth
> > and simply wiped 'em out.
> >
> > Sadly, reservations did nobody any favors, it perpetuated the myth
> > that
> > primitive culture can survive a modern world and that you can mix
> > the two
> > with impunity, using political considerations as the measuring cup.
> >
> > We know that cultures CAN adapt to both the knowledge and science of
> > the
> > world around them, and can adapt to changes in ideas about rights and
> > ownership and written law, etc.   Modern indians want the consumer
> > trappings
> > of modern life... while living without the cultural qualities that
> > made it
> > possible to achieve them - or at least the reservation mentality
> > seeks to
> > keep it that way.
> >
> > I've ranted long enough off topic...   Let's just leave at this :
> > Reservation mentality and attempts to "preserve" cultures unchanged
> > are
> > exercises in a level of imbecility so monumental, with results so
> > horrible,
> > it is simply a crime against humanity.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ++
> > Neofast, Inc, Making internet easy
> > 541-969-8200  509-386-4589
> > ++
> >
> > --
> > From: "Fred Goldstein" 
> > Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 4:52 PM
> > To: ; "WISPA General List" 
> > Subject: Re: [WISPA] [Motorola II] Broadband work with Indian
> > Reservation
> >
> >> At 8/13/2010 04:15 PM, lakeland wrote:
> >>> Hm. How do you become a soverign nation?
> >>
> >> Well, you start by having a big country.  Then you get invaded and
> >> settled by people with better weapons, and diseases that wipe out 90%
> >> of your population. Then wars are fought which kill more of them and
> >> take away more land, settled with treaties supposedly guaranteeing
> >> them sovereignty on at least limited land.  Then the survivors are
> >> forced off their land, at least all of the good land, into deserts
> >> and small reservations, where they're mistreated for another
> >> century.  Finally they get good lawyers and lobbyists and open
> >> casinos.
> >>
> >>> Sounds like its a lot better than being a WISP or an
> >>> Integrator.  :-)
> >>
> >> When you add it all up, I don't really think so. :-(
> >>

Re: [WISPA] [Motorola II] Broadband work with Indian Reservation

[RickG]

Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on who you were) that same outcome
has not happened for other races in similar situations in mankind's past
history. Maybe there wasn't enough lawyers back in the ancient days? So, in
the modern era, it's no longer "only the strong survive" but rather, only
the best lawyer survives?

No matter, it would be interesting to be involved with a tribal roll out of
a high end network.

On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 7:52 PM, Fred Goldstein wrote:

> At 8/13/2010 04:15 PM, lakeland wrote:
> >Hm. How do you become a soverign nation?
>
> Well, you start by having a big country.  Then you get invaded and
> settled by people with better weapons, and diseases that wipe out 90%
> of your population. Then wars are fought which kill more of them and
> take away more land, settled with treaties supposedly guaranteeing
> them sovereignty on at least limited land.  Then the survivors are
> forced off their land, at least all of the good land, into deserts
> and small reservations, where they're mistreated for another
> century.  Finally they get good lawyers and lobbyists and open casinos.
>
> >Sounds like its a lot better than being a WISP or an Integrator.  :-)
>
> When you add it all up, I don't really think so. :-(
>
>
>  --
>   Fred Goldsteink1io   fgoldstein "at" ionary.com
>  ionary Consulting  http://www.ionary.com/
>  +1 617 795 2701
>
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
>
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
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Re: [WISPA] [Motorola II] Broadband work with Indian Reservation

[Sam Tetherow]

Rather than kill the thread, can we drag it back on topic, kicking and 
screaming if we have to.

It appears that we have a group of people that are trying to put 
together some action that will bring broadband to reservations and they 
have asked for WISPA's input.  Whether they can be successful or not is 
yet to be seen but I would hate to see the discussion squelched just 
because a minority want to go off on tangents about social injustice 
perceived or otherwise.

Rick is looking for input from those that have dealt with tribal 
entities in the course of their business, good or bad, maybe we can get 
some pointers on how to handle it better, maybe we can get some 
references from an organization that is respected in the native 
community that will help smooth out some of the bumps, potholes or 
gaping chasms in the road to providing service to indian lands.

I for one would appreciate any assistance I could get in navigating 
tribal politics.

Sam Tetherow
Sandhills Wireless



On 08/13/2010 09:16 PM, Jerry Richardson wrote:
> Wow. Can we kill this thread now before it erupts in flames?
>
> Jerry Richardson
> Sent Mobile
>
> On Aug 13, 2010, at 7:12 PM, "MDK"  wrote:
>
>> YOu have it all wrong.
>>
>> Suppose you live in a land where your culture is incapable of
>> dealing with
>> the rest of the world around it, but the "invaders" are bleeding
>> hearts who
>> "give" you land and let you try to "continue" your incompatible
>> culture
>> unchanged in a world where it is outdated, outmoded and incapable of
>> survival.   In which case, the powers that be grant you money to
>> live on
>> while you pretend to pursue the "preservation" of your dead and
>> unviable
>> culture.It leads to a mess, a huge mess, a world of despondency,
>> want,
>> dependency and hopelessness.
>>
>> Ya'll need to understand that the indian wars were never over
>> land.The
>> "ownership" culture of the whole rest of the world was irrelevant.
>> Instead, the wars were fought over the idea that the world was being
>> transformed around them, and some believed they should fight it,
>> rather than
>> adjust.   IT was a fight over resources - the kind of inter-tribal
>> conflict
>> that had gone on for centuries untold - except it wasn't a fight
>> against
>> another tribe, it was a fight against a culture armed with knowledge,
>> technology, communication, law, and wealth.   And neither understood
>> it.
>>
>> Had we handed the western half of the country to the "natives" and
>> just drew
>> a line around them and made it "do not cross" boundaries, the
>> failures of
>> the various cultures would still have occurred, and so would have the
>> diseases, and so on.And worse, people with less scruples than the
>> schmucks who "wrote treaties" with them, would have invaded for the
>> wealth
>> and simply wiped 'em out.
>>
>> Sadly, reservations did nobody any favors, it perpetuated the myth
>> that
>> primitive culture can survive a modern world and that you can mix
>> the two
>> with impunity, using political considerations as the measuring cup.
>>
>> We know that cultures CAN adapt to both the knowledge and science of
>> the
>> world around them, and can adapt to changes in ideas about rights and
>> ownership and written law, etc.   Modern indians want the consumer
>> trappings
>> of modern life... while living without the cultural qualities that
>> made it
>> possible to achieve them - or at least the reservation mentality
>> seeks to
>> keep it that way.
>>
>> I've ranted long enough off topic...   Let's just leave at this :
>> Reservation mentality and attempts to "preserve" cultures unchanged
>> are
>> exercises in a level of imbecility so monumental, with results so
>> horrible,
>> it is simply a crime against humanity.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ++
>> Neofast, Inc, Making internet easy
>> 541-969-8200  509-386-4589
>> ++
>>
>> --
>> From: "Fred Goldstein"
>> Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 4:52 PM
>> To:; "WISPA General List"
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] [Motorola II] Broadband work with Indian
>> Reservation
>>
>>> At 8/13/2010 04:15 PM, lakeland wrote:
>>>> Hm. How do you become a soverign nation?
>>>
>>> Well, you start by ha

Re: [WISPA] [Motorola II] Broadband work with Indian Reservation

[Jerry Richardson]

Wow. Can we kill this thread now before it erupts in flames?

Jerry Richardson
Sent Mobile

On Aug 13, 2010, at 7:12 PM, "MDK"  wrote:

> YOu have it all wrong.
>
> Suppose you live in a land where your culture is incapable of  
> dealing with
> the rest of the world around it, but the "invaders" are bleeding  
> hearts who
> "give" you land and let you try to "continue" your incompatible  
> culture
> unchanged in a world where it is outdated, outmoded and incapable of
> survival.   In which case, the powers that be grant you money to  
> live on
> while you pretend to pursue the "preservation" of your dead and  
> unviable
> culture.It leads to a mess, a huge mess, a world of despondency,  
> want,
> dependency and hopelessness.
>
> Ya'll need to understand that the indian wars were never over  
> land.The
> "ownership" culture of the whole rest of the world was irrelevant.
> Instead, the wars were fought over the idea that the world was being
> transformed around them, and some believed they should fight it,  
> rather than
> adjust.   IT was a fight over resources - the kind of inter-tribal  
> conflict
> that had gone on for centuries untold - except it wasn't a fight  
> against
> another tribe, it was a fight against a culture armed with knowledge,
> technology, communication, law, and wealth.   And neither understood  
> it.
>
> Had we handed the western half of the country to the "natives" and  
> just drew
> a line around them and made it "do not cross" boundaries, the  
> failures of
> the various cultures would still have occurred, and so would have the
> diseases, and so on.And worse, people with less scruples than the
> schmucks who "wrote treaties" with them, would have invaded for the  
> wealth
> and simply wiped 'em out.
>
> Sadly, reservations did nobody any favors, it perpetuated the myth  
> that
> primitive culture can survive a modern world and that you can mix  
> the two
> with impunity, using political considerations as the measuring cup.
>
> We know that cultures CAN adapt to both the knowledge and science of  
> the
> world around them, and can adapt to changes in ideas about rights and
> ownership and written law, etc.   Modern indians want the consumer  
> trappings
> of modern life... while living without the cultural qualities that  
> made it
> possible to achieve them - or at least the reservation mentality  
> seeks to
> keep it that way.
>
> I've ranted long enough off topic...   Let's just leave at this :
> Reservation mentality and attempts to "preserve" cultures unchanged  
> are
> exercises in a level of imbecility so monumental, with results so  
> horrible,
> it is simply a crime against humanity.
>
>
>
>
> ++++++++++
> Neofast, Inc, Making internet easy
> 541-969-8200  509-386-4589
> ++
>
> --
> From: "Fred Goldstein" 
> Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 4:52 PM
> To: ; "WISPA General List" 
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] [Motorola II] Broadband work with Indian   
> Reservation
>
>> At 8/13/2010 04:15 PM, lakeland wrote:
>>> Hm. How do you become a soverign nation?
>>
>> Well, you start by having a big country.  Then you get invaded and
>> settled by people with better weapons, and diseases that wipe out 90%
>> of your population. Then wars are fought which kill more of them and
>> take away more land, settled with treaties supposedly guaranteeing
>> them sovereignty on at least limited land.  Then the survivors are
>> forced off their land, at least all of the good land, into deserts
>> and small reservations, where they're mistreated for another
>> century.  Finally they get good lawyers and lobbyists and open  
>> casinos.
>>
>>> Sounds like its a lot better than being a WISP or an  
>>> Integrator.  :-)
>>
>> When you add it all up, I don't really think so. :-(
>>
>>
>> --
>> Fred Goldsteink1io   fgoldstein "at" ionary.com
>> ionary Consulting  http://www.ionary.com/
>> +1 617 795 2701
>>
>>
>>
>> --- 
>> --- 
>> --- 
>> --- 
>> 
>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>> --- 
>> --- 
>> --- 
>> --- 
>> 

Re: [WISPA] [Motorola II] Broadband work with Indian Reservation

[MDK]

YOu have it all wrong.

Suppose you live in a land where your culture is incapable of dealing with 
the rest of the world around it, but the "invaders" are bleeding hearts who 
"give" you land and let you try to "continue" your incompatible culture 
unchanged in a world where it is outdated, outmoded and incapable of 
survival.   In which case, the powers that be grant you money to live on 
while you pretend to pursue the "preservation" of your dead and unviable 
culture.It leads to a mess, a huge mess, a world of despondency, want, 
dependency and hopelessness.

Ya'll need to understand that the indian wars were never over land.The 
"ownership" culture of the whole rest of the world was irrelevant. 
Instead, the wars were fought over the idea that the world was being 
transformed around them, and some believed they should fight it, rather than 
adjust.   IT was a fight over resources - the kind of inter-tribal conflict 
that had gone on for centuries untold - except it wasn't a fight against 
another tribe, it was a fight against a culture armed with knowledge, 
technology, communication, law, and wealth.   And neither understood it.

Had we handed the western half of the country to the "natives" and just drew 
a line around them and made it "do not cross" boundaries, the failures of 
the various cultures would still have occurred, and so would have the 
diseases, and so on.And worse, people with less scruples than the 
schmucks who "wrote treaties" with them, would have invaded for the wealth 
and simply wiped 'em out.

Sadly, reservations did nobody any favors, it perpetuated the myth that 
primitive culture can survive a modern world and that you can mix the two 
with impunity, using political considerations as the measuring cup.

We know that cultures CAN adapt to both the knowledge and science of the 
world around them, and can adapt to changes in ideas about rights and 
ownership and written law, etc.   Modern indians want the consumer trappings 
of modern life... while living without the cultural qualities that made it 
possible to achieve them - or at least the reservation mentality seeks to 
keep it that way.

I've ranted long enough off topic...   Let's just leave at this : 
Reservation mentality and attempts to "preserve" cultures unchanged are 
exercises in a level of imbecility so monumental, with results so horrible, 
it is simply a crime against humanity.




++
Neofast, Inc, Making internet easy
541-969-8200  509-386-4589
++

------
From: "Fred Goldstein" 
Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 4:52 PM
To: ; "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] [Motorola II] Broadband work with Indian  Reservation

> At 8/13/2010 04:15 PM, lakeland wrote:
>>Hm. How do you become a soverign nation?
>
> Well, you start by having a big country.  Then you get invaded and
> settled by people with better weapons, and diseases that wipe out 90%
> of your population. Then wars are fought which kill more of them and
> take away more land, settled with treaties supposedly guaranteeing
> them sovereignty on at least limited land.  Then the survivors are
> forced off their land, at least all of the good land, into deserts
> and small reservations, where they're mistreated for another
> century.  Finally they get good lawyers and lobbyists and open casinos.
>
>>Sounds like its a lot better than being a WISP or an Integrator.  :-)
>
> When you add it all up, I don't really think so. :-(
>
>
>  --
>  Fred Goldsteink1io   fgoldstein "at" ionary.com
>  ionary Consulting  http://www.ionary.com/
>  +1 617 795 2701
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ 




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Re: [WISPA] [Motorola II] Broadband work with Indian Reservation

[Fred Goldstein]

At 8/13/2010 04:15 PM, lakeland wrote:
>Hm. How do you become a soverign nation?

Well, you start by having a big country.  Then you get invaded and 
settled by people with better weapons, and diseases that wipe out 90% 
of your population. Then wars are fought which kill more of them and 
take away more land, settled with treaties supposedly guaranteeing 
them sovereignty on at least limited land.  Then the survivors are 
forced off their land, at least all of the good land, into deserts 
and small reservations, where they're mistreated for another 
century.  Finally they get good lawyers and lobbyists and open casinos.

>Sounds like its a lot better than being a WISP or an Integrator.  :-)

When you add it all up, I don't really think so. :-(


  --
  Fred Goldsteink1io   fgoldstein "at" ionary.com
  ionary Consulting  http://www.ionary.com/
  +1 617 795 2701 




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Re: [WISPA] [Motorola II] Broadband work with Indian Reservation

[lakeland]

Hm. How do you become a soverign nation? 
Sounds like its a lot better than being a WISP or an Integrator.  :-)

-B-
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

-Original Message-
From: "Charles Wu (CTI)" 
Sender: wireless-boun...@wispa.org
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 15:02:47 
To: motor...@afmug.com; 
memb...@wispa.org; 'WISPA General List'
Reply-To: WISPA General List 
Cc: 'A Goldman'
Subject: Re: [WISPA] [Motorola II] Broadband work with Indian Reservation




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Re: [WISPA] [Motorola II] Broadband work with Indian Reservation

[Charles Wu (CTI)]

We worked with a bunch of Indian tribes in the Grand Canyon several years back 
- we learned that you shouldn't give them terms, cause if they don't pay, since 
they're a sovereign nation, you can't sue them...your only recourse is declare 
war

-Charles

From: motor...@afmug.com [mailto:motor...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Rick Harnish
Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 2:29 PM
To: memb...@wispa.org; 'WISPA General List'; motor...@afmug.com
Cc: 'A Goldman'
Subject: [Motorola II] Broadband work with Indian Reservation

I will be attending a Strategy Meeting in New York later this month which is 
hosted by NABA (Native American Broadband Association and Intersections 
International).  Alex Goldman will be covering these meetings as well.  Between 
now and then, I would like to hear from WISPs across the country that may have 
worked with Indian tribes in the past or are presently working with them.  Part 
of Alex's articles will focus on how private ISPs are successfully working with 
the Indian Nation, however I would also like to hear the downside of anyone's 
experiences.  NABA has reached out to WISPA to develop alliances and 
collaboration, both on the lobbying front and the development of public/private 
partnerships so that many of the grants awarded to the Indian tribes will have 
a good local ISP partner to assist in the implementation of the projects.

If your ISP business is near a reservation, I would like to hear from you in 
the next week.

Respectfully,

Rick Harnish
Executive Director
WISPA
260-307-4000 cell
866-317-2851 WISPA Office
Skype: rick.harnish.
rharn...@wispa.org




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