Re: [WISPA] Indoor deployment question
Didn't your throughput just pretty much to pot? I tried it with some tranzeos and that's what happened. On Nov 22, 2009, at 5:07 PM, Robert West robert.w...@just- micro.com wrote: I've done plenty of WDS AP's in hotels. Quick and easy. Bob- -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 5:01 PM To: wireless@wispa.org Subject: [WISPA] Indoor deployment question I would prefer copper to link indoor APs. If that won't work due to either technical issues or the customer just plain doesn't want holes drilled, is WDS pretty much the only financially viable alternative that properly bridges the network? Could do a boat-load of PtP links, but that'd be silly. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com --- --- -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- --- -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Indoor deployment question
Nope, but they weren't much interested in throughput at the hotels, the ones I have done didn't provide much bandwidth anyhow. They would have from 3mb to 10mb and share it with all the guests. As it is, I never see much usage in the logs, just the usual Skype, email and porn. Bob- -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Ralph Sent: Saturday, November 28, 2009 10:42 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Indoor deployment question Didn't your throughput just pretty much to pot? I tried it with some tranzeos and that's what happened. On Nov 22, 2009, at 5:07 PM, Robert West robert.w...@just- micro.com wrote: I've done plenty of WDS AP's in hotels. Quick and easy. Bob- -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 5:01 PM To: wireless@wispa.org Subject: [WISPA] Indoor deployment question I would prefer copper to link indoor APs. If that won't work due to either technical issues or the customer just plain doesn't want holes drilled, is WDS pretty much the only financially viable alternative that properly bridges the network? Could do a boat-load of PtP links, but that'd be silly. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com --- --- -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- --- -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Indoor deployment question
I did a hotel 4 years ago with all Linksys WRT54g's flashed with DD-WRT to use WDS. Guy was cheap so I picked up the Linksys for less than 50 bucks each and installed 6 of them in the hotel, 2 floors. Small place. Have them all set to reboot every day, use watchdog for resetting and I port forward into them all to monitor them. Out of all the installs I've done, that one is actually the most trouble free and was one of the cheapest. He liked it so much he asked to have an IP camera system put in. He paid plenty that time! Bob- -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of 3-dB Networks Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 5:13 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Indoor deployment question Depends on your definition of economical :-) Ruckus has meshing built in to all of their AP's... plus with the antenna array built into these babies you can usually get by with deploying 1/2 as many AP's... so it can end up costing less than a roll your own Mikrotik system Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 3:01 PM To: wireless@wispa.org Subject: [WISPA] Indoor deployment question I would prefer copper to link indoor APs. If that won't work due to either technical issues or the customer just plain doesn't want holes drilled, is WDS pretty much the only financially viable alternative that properly bridges the network? Could do a boat-load of PtP links, but that'd be silly. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Indoor deployment question
I did the same exact thing! Still working today with no issues. -RickG On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 10:06 AM, Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.comwrote: I did a hotel 4 years ago with all Linksys WRT54g's flashed with DD-WRT to use WDS. Guy was cheap so I picked up the Linksys for less than 50 bucks each and installed 6 of them in the hotel, 2 floors. Small place. Have them all set to reboot every day, use watchdog for resetting and I port forward into them all to monitor them. Out of all the installs I've done, that one is actually the most trouble free and was one of the cheapest. He liked it so much he asked to have an IP camera system put in. He paid plenty that time! Bob- -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of 3-dB Networks Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 5:13 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Indoor deployment question Depends on your definition of economical :-) Ruckus has meshing built in to all of their AP's... plus with the antenna array built into these babies you can usually get by with deploying 1/2 as many AP's... so it can end up costing less than a roll your own Mikrotik system Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 3:01 PM To: wireless@wispa.org Subject: [WISPA] Indoor deployment question I would prefer copper to link indoor APs. If that won't work due to either technical issues or the customer just plain doesn't want holes drilled, is WDS pretty much the only financially viable alternative that properly bridges the network? Could do a boat-load of PtP links, but that'd be silly. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Indoor deployment question
And how bizarre is that? Sometimes cheap can work out perfectly. I wish everything was as trouble free. -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of RickG Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 12:18 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Indoor deployment question I did the same exact thing! Still working today with no issues. -RickG On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 10:06 AM, Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.comwrote: I did a hotel 4 years ago with all Linksys WRT54g's flashed with DD-WRT to use WDS. Guy was cheap so I picked up the Linksys for less than 50 bucks each and installed 6 of them in the hotel, 2 floors. Small place. Have them all set to reboot every day, use watchdog for resetting and I port forward into them all to monitor them. Out of all the installs I've done, that one is actually the most trouble free and was one of the cheapest. He liked it so much he asked to have an IP camera system put in. He paid plenty that time! Bob- -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of 3-dB Networks Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 5:13 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Indoor deployment question Depends on your definition of economical :-) Ruckus has meshing built in to all of their AP's... plus with the antenna array built into these babies you can usually get by with deploying 1/2 as many AP's... so it can end up costing less than a roll your own Mikrotik system Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 3:01 PM To: wireless@wispa.org Subject: [WISPA] Indoor deployment question I would prefer copper to link indoor APs. If that won't work due to either technical issues or the customer just plain doesn't want holes drilled, is WDS pretty much the only financially viable alternative that properly bridges the network? Could do a boat-load of PtP links, but that'd be silly. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
[WISPA] Indoor deployment question
I would prefer copper to link indoor APs. If that won't work due to either technical issues or the customer just plain doesn't want holes drilled, is WDS pretty much the only financially viable alternative that properly bridges the network? Could do a boat-load of PtP links, but that'd be silly. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Indoor deployment question
I've done plenty of WDS AP's in hotels. Quick and easy. Bob- -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 5:01 PM To: wireless@wispa.org Subject: [WISPA] Indoor deployment question I would prefer copper to link indoor APs. If that won't work due to either technical issues or the customer just plain doesn't want holes drilled, is WDS pretty much the only financially viable alternative that properly bridges the network? Could do a boat-load of PtP links, but that'd be silly. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Indoor deployment question
Mesh? On 11/22/09, Mike Hammett wispawirel...@ics-il.net wrote: I would prefer copper to link indoor APs. If that won't work due to either technical issues or the customer just plain doesn't want holes drilled, is WDS pretty much the only financially viable alternative that properly bridges the network? Could do a boat-load of PtP links, but that'd be silly. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources. --- Albert Einstein WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Indoor deployment question
Mesh with 2.4GHz APs for clients and 5.8GHz WDS backhaul give much better throughput. http://www.wiligear.com/?q=products/mesh/mesh-mini Greg On Nov 22, 2009, at 5:07 PM, Robert West wrote: I've done plenty of WDS AP's in hotels. Quick and easy. Bob- -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 5:01 PM To: wireless@wispa.org Subject: [WISPA] Indoor deployment question I would prefer copper to link indoor APs. If that won't work due to either technical issues or the customer just plain doesn't want holes drilled, is WDS pretty much the only financially viable alternative that properly bridges the network? Could do a boat-load of PtP links, but that'd be silly. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Indoor deployment question
Depends on your definition of economical :-) Ruckus has meshing built in to all of their AP's... plus with the antenna array built into these babies you can usually get by with deploying 1/2 as many AP's... so it can end up costing less than a roll your own Mikrotik system Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 3:01 PM To: wireless@wispa.org Subject: [WISPA] Indoor deployment question I would prefer copper to link indoor APs. If that won't work due to either technical issues or the customer just plain doesn't want holes drilled, is WDS pretty much the only financially viable alternative that properly bridges the network? Could do a boat-load of PtP links, but that'd be silly. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Indoor deployment question
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/beamforming-wifi-ruckus,2390.html - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: os10ru...@gmail.com Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 4:26 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Indoor deployment question Does Ruckus state their antenna gain anywhere? If their beam forming gain isn't all that much higher than the competition's omni gain then the performance couldn't be all that much better unless there's noise or multi path issues. Greg On Nov 22, 2009, at 5:13 PM, 3-dB Networks wrote: Depends on your definition of economical :-) Ruckus has meshing built in to all of their AP's... plus with the antenna array built into these babies you can usually get by with deploying 1/2 as many AP's... so it can end up costing less than a roll your own Mikrotik system Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 3:01 PM To: wireless@wispa.org Subject: [WISPA] Indoor deployment question I would prefer copper to link indoor APs. If that won't work due to either technical issues or the customer just plain doesn't want holes drilled, is WDS pretty much the only financially viable alternative that properly bridges the network? Could do a boat-load of PtP links, but that'd be silly. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Indoor deployment question
There are over 4,000 antenna patterns, with the relative gain of the best ones up to 10dBi... the magic is though that the AP also uses the patterns they transmit on to receive on... so the gain is bi-directional instead of blasting the signal out but not having any mechanism in place for the client to be heard. The AP can also selectively put noise in up to a -15dBi null... which can be helpful. I would be curious in what indoor environment there isn't multi-path :-) Anyways, if you have doubts... Tom's Hardware (which is as unbiased as it gets) did some testing against Cisco and Aruba. If you want to see the power of beamforming, I'd encourage you to read this article all the way through. It gives a very detailed explanation of the magic behind Ruckus. http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/beamforming-wifi-ruckus,2390.html Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of os10ru...@gmail.com Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 3:26 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Indoor deployment question Does Ruckus state their antenna gain anywhere? If their beam forming gain isn't all that much higher than the competition's omni gain then the performance couldn't be all that much better unless there's noise or multi path issues. Greg On Nov 22, 2009, at 5:13 PM, 3-dB Networks wrote: Depends on your definition of economical :-) Ruckus has meshing built in to all of their AP's... plus with the antenna array built into these babies you can usually get by with deploying 1/2 as many AP's... so it can end up costing less than a roll your own Mikrotik system Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 3:01 PM To: wireless@wispa.org Subject: [WISPA] Indoor deployment question I would prefer copper to link indoor APs. If that won't work due to either technical issues or the customer just plain doesn't want holes drilled, is WDS pretty much the only financially viable alternative that properly bridges the network? Could do a boat-load of PtP links, but that'd be silly. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Indoor deployment question
I actually forgot about Ruckus. Their SME devices are too expensive, but the 7111 might not be bad. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: 3-dB Networks wi...@3-db.net Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 4:13 PM To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Indoor deployment question Depends on your definition of economical :-) Ruckus has meshing built in to all of their AP's... plus with the antenna array built into these babies you can usually get by with deploying 1/2 as many AP's... so it can end up costing less than a roll your own Mikrotik system Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 3:01 PM To: wireless@wispa.org Subject: [WISPA] Indoor deployment question I would prefer copper to link indoor APs. If that won't work due to either technical issues or the customer just plain doesn't want holes drilled, is WDS pretty much the only financially viable alternative that properly bridges the network? Could do a boat-load of PtP links, but that'd be silly. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Indoor deployment question
Yeah, I saw that, many times. Are there any other reviews? I suspect the good performance over and above a regular high quality AP is that it's dual band mesh. The Ruckus gear is dual band mesh right? I get a lot of hits when I Google ruckus dual band mesh mediaflex but the Ruckus site isn't totally clear. Could a little more directional gain really make that much difference? I suspect head to head with other dual band mesh gear the Ruckus gear would prove to be similar in performance. It needs to be an apples to apples comparison. Greg On Nov 22, 2009, at 5:31 PM, Mike Hammett wrote: http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/beamforming-wifi-ruckus,2390.html - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: os10ru...@gmail.com Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 4:26 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Indoor deployment question Does Ruckus state their antenna gain anywhere? If their beam forming gain isn't all that much higher than the competition's omni gain then the performance couldn't be all that much better unless there's noise or multi path issues. Greg On Nov 22, 2009, at 5:13 PM, 3-dB Networks wrote: Depends on your definition of economical :-) Ruckus has meshing built in to all of their AP's... plus with the antenna array built into these babies you can usually get by with deploying 1/2 as many AP's... so it can end up costing less than a roll your own Mikrotik system Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 3:01 PM To: wireless@wispa.org Subject: [WISPA] Indoor deployment question I would prefer copper to link indoor APs. If that won't work due to either technical issues or the customer just plain doesn't want holes drilled, is WDS pretty much the only financially viable alternative that properly bridges the network? Could do a boat-load of PtP links, but that'd be silly. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Indoor deployment question
Seems hard to believe that if I took a 10dbi antenna which isn't all that much gain and put it on my AP and pointed it at my client I'd see that much of a gain. Greg On Nov 22, 2009, at 5:43 PM, 3-dB Networks wrote: There are over 4,000 antenna patterns, with the relative gain of the best ones up to 10dBi... the magic is though that the AP also uses the patterns they transmit on to receive on... so the gain is bi-directional instead of blasting the signal out but not having any mechanism in place for the client to be heard. The AP can also selectively put noise in up to a -15dBi null... which can be helpful. I would be curious in what indoor environment there isn't multi-path :-) Anyways, if you have doubts... Tom's Hardware (which is as unbiased as it gets) did some testing against Cisco and Aruba. If you want to see the power of beamforming, I'd encourage you to read this article all the way through. It gives a very detailed explanation of the magic behind Ruckus. http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/beamforming-wifi-ruckus,2390.html Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of os10ru...@gmail.com Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 3:26 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Indoor deployment question Does Ruckus state their antenna gain anywhere? If their beam forming gain isn't all that much higher than the competition's omni gain then the performance couldn't be all that much better unless there's noise or multi path issues. Greg On Nov 22, 2009, at 5:13 PM, 3-dB Networks wrote: Depends on your definition of economical :-) Ruckus has meshing built in to all of their AP's... plus with the antenna array built into these babies you can usually get by with deploying 1/2 as many AP's... so it can end up costing less than a roll your own Mikrotik system Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 3:01 PM To: wireless@wispa.org Subject: [WISPA] Indoor deployment question I would prefer copper to link indoor APs. If that won't work due to either technical issues or the customer just plain doesn't want holes drilled, is WDS pretty much the only financially viable alternative that properly bridges the network? Could do a boat-load of PtP links, but that'd be silly. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Indoor deployment question
No, because it does beamforming. I believe Dan said it can use 4000 different antenna patterns. What's better performing, an omni with a 30 dB radio or say an array of 6 sectors? What about 4000 sectors? - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: os10ru...@gmail.com Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 4:57 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Indoor deployment question Yeah, I saw that, many times. Are there any other reviews? I suspect the good performance over and above a regular high quality AP is that it's dual band mesh. The Ruckus gear is dual band mesh right? I get a lot of hits when I Google ruckus dual band mesh mediaflex but the Ruckus site isn't totally clear. Could a little more directional gain really make that much difference? I suspect head to head with other dual band mesh gear the Ruckus gear would prove to be similar in performance. It needs to be an apples to apples comparison. Greg On Nov 22, 2009, at 5:31 PM, Mike Hammett wrote: http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/beamforming-wifi-ruckus,2390.html - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: os10ru...@gmail.com Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 4:26 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Indoor deployment question Does Ruckus state their antenna gain anywhere? If their beam forming gain isn't all that much higher than the competition's omni gain then the performance couldn't be all that much better unless there's noise or multi path issues. Greg On Nov 22, 2009, at 5:13 PM, 3-dB Networks wrote: Depends on your definition of economical :-) Ruckus has meshing built in to all of their AP's... plus with the antenna array built into these babies you can usually get by with deploying 1/2 as many AP's... so it can end up costing less than a roll your own Mikrotik system Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 3:01 PM To: wireless@wispa.org Subject: [WISPA] Indoor deployment question I would prefer copper to link indoor APs. If that won't work due to either technical issues or the customer just plain doesn't want holes drilled, is WDS pretty much the only financially viable alternative that properly bridges the network? Could do a boat-load of PtP links, but that'd be silly. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe
Re: [WISPA] Indoor deployment question
Depends on what your comparing it to. If you compare it to Cisco, Aruba, Meraki, Symbol, etc. it almost always comes out cheaper. It's not Mikrotik cheap, or Linksys off the shelf cheap... but you get what you pay for Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 3:48 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Indoor deployment question I actually forgot about Ruckus. Their SME devices are too expensive, but the 7111 might not be bad. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: 3-dB Networks wi...@3-db.net Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 4:13 PM To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Indoor deployment question Depends on your definition of economical :-) Ruckus has meshing built in to all of their AP's... plus with the antenna array built into these babies you can usually get by with deploying 1/2 as many AP's... so it can end up costing less than a roll your own Mikrotik system Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 3:01 PM To: wireless@wispa.org Subject: [WISPA] Indoor deployment question I would prefer copper to link indoor APs. If that won't work due to either technical issues or the customer just plain doesn't want holes drilled, is WDS pretty much the only financially viable alternative that properly bridges the network? Could do a boat-load of PtP links, but that'd be silly. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Indoor deployment question
Only the 7962 and 7761 are dual-band mesh... the rest is straight 2.4GHz. Mediaflex is their in-home equipment for streaming HD video... only wi-fi manufacturer on the planet that can do that well :-) Metroflex is their muni wi-fi client device line Zoneflex is the product line that most people are going to look at (for SMB's, hotels, etc. etc.). If I get 7dB more directional gain than your standard AP... you bet its going to make a big difference. That's a 200% increase. Plus the gear is smart enough to not try and blast through walls. For instance... did a site survey this last week in a 100 year old building with foot thick solid stone walls. Put the AP in a room one plaster wall away from that solid wall... and was getting full throughput outside in the courtyard. The product is smart enough to know that bouncing off the wall through a window is the best path over brute force. I have yet to see anyone argue that the antenna technology is something other than a work of art once they have seen what it can do in person. If you're serious about purchasing some gear, I could probably setup a demo for you. Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of os10ru...@gmail.com Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 3:58 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Indoor deployment question Yeah, I saw that, many times. Are there any other reviews? I suspect the good performance over and above a regular high quality AP is that it's dual band mesh. The Ruckus gear is dual band mesh right? I get a lot of hits when I Google ruckus dual band mesh mediaflex but the Ruckus site isn't totally clear. Could a little more directional gain really make that much difference? I suspect head to head with other dual band mesh gear the Ruckus gear would prove to be similar in performance. It needs to be an apples to apples comparison. Greg On Nov 22, 2009, at 5:31 PM, Mike Hammett wrote: http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/beamforming-wifi-ruckus,2390.html - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: os10ru...@gmail.com Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 4:26 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Indoor deployment question Does Ruckus state their antenna gain anywhere? If their beam forming gain isn't all that much higher than the competition's omni gain then the performance couldn't be all that much better unless there's noise or multi path issues. Greg On Nov 22, 2009, at 5:13 PM, 3-dB Networks wrote: Depends on your definition of economical :-) Ruckus has meshing built in to all of their AP's... plus with the antenna array built into these babies you can usually get by with deploying 1/2 as many AP's... so it can end up costing less than a roll your own Mikrotik system Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 3:01 PM To: wireless@wispa.org Subject: [WISPA] Indoor deployment question I would prefer copper to link indoor APs. If that won't work due to either technical issues or the customer just plain doesn't want holes drilled, is WDS pretty much the only financially viable alternative that properly bridges the network? Could do a boat-load of PtP links, but that'd be silly. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join
Re: [WISPA] Indoor deployment question
Does a sector work any better when there's no interference or when there's just a few clients? In a highly urban area like an apartment building that's flooded with microwave ovens, cordless phones etc sure. But what about a house in suburbia where there's no real interference? I guess that Ruckus is the only one doing it makes me question the urgency. Though I have to admit that at one time I was considering deploying their products. I like the concept and I'd love to try them. But I fell prey to the allure of MT and UBNT and once I started deploying that I wanted to stay compatible. I think now my dream machine would be any great hardware (at a good price) that could run RouterOS. I would love to see UBNT and MT get together on some gear. To each is own. Greg On Nov 22, 2009, at 6:43 PM, Mike Hammett wrote: No, because it does beamforming. I believe Dan said it can use 4000 different antenna patterns. What's better performing, an omni with a 30 dB radio or say an array of 6 sectors? What about 4000 sectors? - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: os10ru...@gmail.com Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 4:57 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Indoor deployment question Yeah, I saw that, many times. Are there any other reviews? I suspect the good performance over and above a regular high quality AP is that it's dual band mesh. The Ruckus gear is dual band mesh right? I get a lot of hits when I Google ruckus dual band mesh mediaflex but the Ruckus site isn't totally clear. Could a little more directional gain really make that much difference? I suspect head to head with other dual band mesh gear the Ruckus gear would prove to be similar in performance. It needs to be an apples to apples comparison. Greg On Nov 22, 2009, at 5:31 PM, Mike Hammett wrote: http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/beamforming-wifi-ruckus,2390.html - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: os10ru...@gmail.com Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 4:26 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Indoor deployment question Does Ruckus state their antenna gain anywhere? If their beam forming gain isn't all that much higher than the competition's omni gain then the performance couldn't be all that much better unless there's noise or multi path issues. Greg On Nov 22, 2009, at 5:13 PM, 3-dB Networks wrote: Depends on your definition of economical :-) Ruckus has meshing built in to all of their AP's... plus with the antenna array built into these babies you can usually get by with deploying 1/2 as many AP's... so it can end up costing less than a roll your own Mikrotik system Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 3:01 PM To: wireless@wispa.org Subject: [WISPA] Indoor deployment question I would prefer copper to link indoor APs. If that won't work due to either technical issues or the customer just plain doesn't want holes drilled, is WDS pretty much the only financially viable alternative that properly bridges the network? Could do a boat-load of PtP links, but that'd be silly. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org
Re: [WISPA] Indoor deployment question
Your average Wi-Fi AP comes with a 3dBi antenna or even a unity gain antenna... every 3-dB increase is double the power... The trick though isn't that its pointing a 10dBi antenna pattern at a client, its that its taking it one step further and pointing that at the best possible path to the client, which in an indoor environment is rarely the most direct path. I could pull out a few graphs that Ruckus has done to illustrate the point... but the Toms Hardware article is the most unbiased review of the gear out there Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of os10ru...@gmail.com Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 4:02 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Indoor deployment question Seems hard to believe that if I took a 10dbi antenna which isn't all that much gain and put it on my AP and pointed it at my client I'd see that much of a gain. Greg On Nov 22, 2009, at 5:43 PM, 3-dB Networks wrote: There are over 4,000 antenna patterns, with the relative gain of the best ones up to 10dBi... the magic is though that the AP also uses the patterns they transmit on to receive on... so the gain is bi-directional instead of blasting the signal out but not having any mechanism in place for the client to be heard. The AP can also selectively put noise in up to a -15dBi null... which can be helpful. I would be curious in what indoor environment there isn't multi-path :-) Anyways, if you have doubts... Tom's Hardware (which is as unbiased as it gets) did some testing against Cisco and Aruba. If you want to see the power of beamforming, I'd encourage you to read this article all the way through. It gives a very detailed explanation of the magic behind Ruckus. http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/beamforming-wifi-ruckus,2390.html Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of os10ru...@gmail.com Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 3:26 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Indoor deployment question Does Ruckus state their antenna gain anywhere? If their beam forming gain isn't all that much higher than the competition's omni gain then the performance couldn't be all that much better unless there's noise or multi path issues. Greg On Nov 22, 2009, at 5:13 PM, 3-dB Networks wrote: Depends on your definition of economical :-) Ruckus has meshing built in to all of their AP's... plus with the antenna array built into these babies you can usually get by with deploying 1/2 as many AP's... so it can end up costing less than a roll your own Mikrotik system Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 3:01 PM To: wireless@wispa.org Subject: [WISPA] Indoor deployment question I would prefer copper to link indoor APs. If that won't work due to either technical issues or the customer just plain doesn't want holes drilled, is WDS pretty much the only financially viable alternative that properly bridges the network? Could do a boat-load of PtP links, but that'd be silly. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http
Re: [WISPA] Indoor deployment question
Your right, the technology is alluring. Maybe someday Greg On Nov 22, 2009, at 8:07 PM, 3-dB Networks wrote: Only the 7962 and 7761 are dual-band mesh... the rest is straight 2.4GHz. Mediaflex is their in-home equipment for streaming HD video... only wi-fi manufacturer on the planet that can do that well :-) Metroflex is their muni wi-fi client device line Zoneflex is the product line that most people are going to look at (for SMB's, hotels, etc. etc.). If I get 7dB more directional gain than your standard AP... you bet its going to make a big difference. That's a 200% increase. Plus the gear is smart enough to not try and blast through walls. For instance... did a site survey this last week in a 100 year old building with foot thick solid stone walls. Put the AP in a room one plaster wall away from that solid wall... and was getting full throughput outside in the courtyard. The product is smart enough to know that bouncing off the wall through a window is the best path over brute force. I have yet to see anyone argue that the antenna technology is something other than a work of art once they have seen what it can do in person. If you're serious about purchasing some gear, I could probably setup a demo for you. Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of os10ru...@gmail.com Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 3:58 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Indoor deployment question Yeah, I saw that, many times. Are there any other reviews? I suspect the good performance over and above a regular high quality AP is that it's dual band mesh. The Ruckus gear is dual band mesh right? I get a lot of hits when I Google ruckus dual band mesh mediaflex but the Ruckus site isn't totally clear. Could a little more directional gain really make that much difference? I suspect head to head with other dual band mesh gear the Ruckus gear would prove to be similar in performance. It needs to be an apples to apples comparison. Greg On Nov 22, 2009, at 5:31 PM, Mike Hammett wrote: http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/beamforming-wifi-ruckus,2390.html - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: os10ru...@gmail.com Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 4:26 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Indoor deployment question Does Ruckus state their antenna gain anywhere? If their beam forming gain isn't all that much higher than the competition's omni gain then the performance couldn't be all that much better unless there's noise or multi path issues. Greg On Nov 22, 2009, at 5:13 PM, 3-dB Networks wrote: Depends on your definition of economical :-) Ruckus has meshing built in to all of their AP's... plus with the antenna array built into these babies you can usually get by with deploying 1/2 as many AP's... so it can end up costing less than a roll your own Mikrotik system Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 3:01 PM To: wireless@wispa.org Subject: [WISPA] Indoor deployment question I would prefer copper to link indoor APs. If that won't work due to either technical issues or the customer just plain doesn't want holes drilled, is WDS pretty much the only financially viable alternative that properly bridges the network? Could do a boat-load of PtP links, but that'd be silly. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman
Re: [WISPA] Indoor deployment question
As APs I'm running Bullets with gain antennas, PS2's and NS2's so I've got the gain and great signals. I'm in a place where there's no interference of any kind. I'm already in the sweet spot as far as signal strength goes and clients are connecting at 54Mbps. What more is there to gain? Greg On Nov 22, 2009, at 8:09 PM, 3-dB Networks wrote: Your average Wi-Fi AP comes with a 3dBi antenna or even a unity gain antenna... every 3-dB increase is double the power... The trick though isn't that its pointing a 10dBi antenna pattern at a client, its that its taking it one step further and pointing that at the best possible path to the client, which in an indoor environment is rarely the most direct path. I could pull out a few graphs that Ruckus has done to illustrate the point... but the Toms Hardware article is the most unbiased review of the gear out there Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of os10ru...@gmail.com Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 4:02 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Indoor deployment question Seems hard to believe that if I took a 10dbi antenna which isn't all that much gain and put it on my AP and pointed it at my client I'd see that much of a gain. Greg On Nov 22, 2009, at 5:43 PM, 3-dB Networks wrote: There are over 4,000 antenna patterns, with the relative gain of the best ones up to 10dBi... the magic is though that the AP also uses the patterns they transmit on to receive on... so the gain is bi-directional instead of blasting the signal out but not having any mechanism in place for the client to be heard. The AP can also selectively put noise in up to a -15dBi null... which can be helpful. I would be curious in what indoor environment there isn't multi-path :-) Anyways, if you have doubts... Tom's Hardware (which is as unbiased as it gets) did some testing against Cisco and Aruba. If you want to see the power of beamforming, I'd encourage you to read this article all the way through. It gives a very detailed explanation of the magic behind Ruckus. http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/beamforming-wifi-ruckus,2390.html Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of os10ru...@gmail.com Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 3:26 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Indoor deployment question Does Ruckus state their antenna gain anywhere? If their beam forming gain isn't all that much higher than the competition's omni gain then the performance couldn't be all that much better unless there's noise or multi path issues. Greg On Nov 22, 2009, at 5:13 PM, 3-dB Networks wrote: Depends on your definition of economical :-) Ruckus has meshing built in to all of their AP's... plus with the antenna array built into these babies you can usually get by with deploying 1/2 as many AP's... so it can end up costing less than a roll your own Mikrotik system Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 3:01 PM To: wireless@wispa.org Subject: [WISPA] Indoor deployment question I would prefer copper to link indoor APs. If that won't work due to either technical issues or the customer just plain doesn't want holes drilled, is WDS pretty much the only financially viable alternative that properly bridges the network? Could do a boat-load of PtP links, but that'd be silly. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http
Re: [WISPA] Indoor deployment question
The gear isn't designed to be deployed in a house in suburbia (well with the exception of media flex)... it competes in the enterprise market with Cisco, Aruba, Meraki, Aerohive, Symbol, etc. etc. etc. Its designed to be deployed in schools, in hospitals, in hotels, in the SMB... where there is no IT staff to learn Mikrotik and where performance is critical. There is a whole laundry list of features Ruckus has that are patented... beamforming is just the cool one for the geeks. Read up on the 802.11n protocol... and you will see beamforming is part of it. Ruckus holds a lot of patents on their antenna technology... which complicates other vendors from doing it. Furthermore, it's all about how a company looks at Wi-Fi. Almost every other companies AP is an AP is an AP with very similar characteristics, because the engineers focus on the software or feature sets and let the chipset manufacturers do all of the radio design. Ruckus realizes to truly make Wi-Fi better you have to make the antenna array, the radio, all better too. I was skeptical of the product once too... then I saw what it could do in person and was amazed. I've now had the joy of showing off the product to plenty of IT staff, people that get Wi-Fi, etc and see their jaws drop when they see what this product can actually do. In the Toms Hardware test... the Aruba gear was in there to provide the baseline for everyone else's Wi-Fi. The results speak for themselves. To each their own, for sure :-) Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of os10ru...@gmail.com Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 6:09 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Indoor deployment question Does a sector work any better when there's no interference or when there's just a few clients? In a highly urban area like an apartment building that's flooded with microwave ovens, cordless phones etc sure. But what about a house in suburbia where there's no real interference? I guess that Ruckus is the only one doing it makes me question the urgency. Though I have to admit that at one time I was considering deploying their products. I like the concept and I'd love to try them. But I fell prey to the allure of MT and UBNT and once I started deploying that I wanted to stay compatible. I think now my dream machine would be any great hardware (at a good price) that could run RouterOS. I would love to see UBNT and MT get together on some gear. To each is own. Greg On Nov 22, 2009, at 6:43 PM, Mike Hammett wrote: No, because it does beamforming. I believe Dan said it can use 4000 different antenna patterns. What's better performing, an omni with a 30 dB radio or say an array of 6 sectors? What about 4000 sectors? - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: os10ru...@gmail.com Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 4:57 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Indoor deployment question Yeah, I saw that, many times. Are there any other reviews? I suspect the good performance over and above a regular high quality AP is that it's dual band mesh. The Ruckus gear is dual band mesh right? I get a lot of hits when I Google ruckus dual band mesh mediaflex but the Ruckus site isn't totally clear. Could a little more directional gain really make that much difference? I suspect head to head with other dual band mesh gear the Ruckus gear would prove to be similar in performance. It needs to be an apples to apples comparison. Greg On Nov 22, 2009, at 5:31 PM, Mike Hammett wrote: http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/beamforming-wifi-ruckus,2390.html - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: os10ru...@gmail.com Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 4:26 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Indoor deployment question Does Ruckus state their antenna gain anywhere? If their beam forming gain isn't all that much higher than the competition's omni gain then the performance couldn't be all that much better unless there's noise or multi path issues. Greg On Nov 22, 2009, at 5:13 PM, 3-dB Networks wrote: Depends on your definition of economical :-) Ruckus has meshing built in to all of their AP's... plus with the antenna array built into these babies you can usually get by with deploying 1/2 as many AP's... so it can end up costing less than a roll your own Mikrotik system Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 3:01 PM To: wireless@wispa.org Subject: [WISPA] Indoor deployment
Re: [WISPA] Indoor deployment question
Greg... your looking at this from an outdoors service provider aspect. The gear isn't designed for that. Its for indoor deployments (although there are people using it to do outdoor service). Put a bullet with a 10dBi antenna and a Ruckus AP next to each other indoors... test from a few locations, and test with throughput, not receive level... and the results will speak for themselves :-) Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of os10ru...@gmail.com Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 6:15 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Indoor deployment question As APs I'm running Bullets with gain antennas, PS2's and NS2's so I've got the gain and great signals. I'm in a place where there's no interference of any kind. I'm already in the sweet spot as far as signal strength goes and clients are connecting at 54Mbps. What more is there to gain? Greg On Nov 22, 2009, at 8:09 PM, 3-dB Networks wrote: Your average Wi-Fi AP comes with a 3dBi antenna or even a unity gain antenna... every 3-dB increase is double the power... The trick though isn't that its pointing a 10dBi antenna pattern at a client, its that its taking it one step further and pointing that at the best possible path to the client, which in an indoor environment is rarely the most direct path. I could pull out a few graphs that Ruckus has done to illustrate the point... but the Toms Hardware article is the most unbiased review of the gear out there Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of os10ru...@gmail.com Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 4:02 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Indoor deployment question Seems hard to believe that if I took a 10dbi antenna which isn't all that much gain and put it on my AP and pointed it at my client I'd see that much of a gain. Greg On Nov 22, 2009, at 5:43 PM, 3-dB Networks wrote: There are over 4,000 antenna patterns, with the relative gain of the best ones up to 10dBi... the magic is though that the AP also uses the patterns they transmit on to receive on... so the gain is bi-directional instead of blasting the signal out but not having any mechanism in place for the client to be heard. The AP can also selectively put noise in up to a -15dBi null... which can be helpful. I would be curious in what indoor environment there isn't multi-path :-) Anyways, if you have doubts... Tom's Hardware (which is as unbiased as it gets) did some testing against Cisco and Aruba. If you want to see the power of beamforming, I'd encourage you to read this article all the way through. It gives a very detailed explanation of the magic behind Ruckus. http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/beamforming-wifi-ruckus,2390.html Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of os10ru...@gmail.com Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 3:26 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Indoor deployment question Does Ruckus state their antenna gain anywhere? If their beam forming gain isn't all that much higher than the competition's omni gain then the performance couldn't be all that much better unless there's noise or multi path issues. Greg On Nov 22, 2009, at 5:13 PM, 3-dB Networks wrote: Depends on your definition of economical :-) Ruckus has meshing built in to all of their AP's... plus with the antenna array built into these babies you can usually get by with deploying 1/2 as many AP's... so it can end up costing less than a roll your own Mikrotik system Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 3:01 PM To: wireless@wispa.org Subject: [WISPA] Indoor deployment question I would prefer copper to link indoor APs. If that won't work due to either technical issues or the customer just plain doesn't want holes drilled, is WDS pretty much the only financially viable alternative that properly bridges the network? Could do a boat-load of PtP links, but that'd be silly. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless
Re: [WISPA] Indoor deployment question
OK, you've piqued my interest. I'll try it someday and take your word for it for now. Greg On Nov 22, 2009, at 8:21 PM, 3-dB Networks wrote: Greg... your looking at this from an outdoors service provider aspect. The gear isn't designed for that. Its for indoor deployments (although there are people using it to do outdoor service). Put a bullet with a 10dBi antenna and a Ruckus AP next to each other indoors... test from a few locations, and test with throughput, not receive level... and the results will speak for themselves :-) Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of os10ru...@gmail.com Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 6:15 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Indoor deployment question As APs I'm running Bullets with gain antennas, PS2's and NS2's so I've got the gain and great signals. I'm in a place where there's no interference of any kind. I'm already in the sweet spot as far as signal strength goes and clients are connecting at 54Mbps. What more is there to gain? Greg On Nov 22, 2009, at 8:09 PM, 3-dB Networks wrote: Your average Wi-Fi AP comes with a 3dBi antenna or even a unity gain antenna... every 3-dB increase is double the power... The trick though isn't that its pointing a 10dBi antenna pattern at a client, its that its taking it one step further and pointing that at the best possible path to the client, which in an indoor environment is rarely the most direct path. I could pull out a few graphs that Ruckus has done to illustrate the point... but the Toms Hardware article is the most unbiased review of the gear out there Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of os10ru...@gmail.com Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 4:02 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Indoor deployment question Seems hard to believe that if I took a 10dbi antenna which isn't all that much gain and put it on my AP and pointed it at my client I'd see that much of a gain. Greg On Nov 22, 2009, at 5:43 PM, 3-dB Networks wrote: There are over 4,000 antenna patterns, with the relative gain of the best ones up to 10dBi... the magic is though that the AP also uses the patterns they transmit on to receive on... so the gain is bi-directional instead of blasting the signal out but not having any mechanism in place for the client to be heard. The AP can also selectively put noise in up to a -15dBi null... which can be helpful. I would be curious in what indoor environment there isn't multi-path :-) Anyways, if you have doubts... Tom's Hardware (which is as unbiased as it gets) did some testing against Cisco and Aruba. If you want to see the power of beamforming, I'd encourage you to read this article all the way through. It gives a very detailed explanation of the magic behind Ruckus. http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/beamforming-wifi-ruckus,2390.html Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of os10ru...@gmail.com Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 3:26 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Indoor deployment question Does Ruckus state their antenna gain anywhere? If their beam forming gain isn't all that much higher than the competition's omni gain then the performance couldn't be all that much better unless there's noise or multi path issues. Greg On Nov 22, 2009, at 5:13 PM, 3-dB Networks wrote: Depends on your definition of economical :-) Ruckus has meshing built in to all of their AP's... plus with the antenna array built into these babies you can usually get by with deploying 1/2 as many AP's... so it can end up costing less than a roll your own Mikrotik system Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 3:01 PM To: wireless@wispa.org Subject: [WISPA] Indoor deployment question I would prefer copper to link indoor APs. If that won't work due to either technical issues or the customer just plain doesn't want holes drilled, is WDS pretty much the only financially viable alternative that properly bridges the network? Could do a boat-load of PtP links, but that'd be silly. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List
Re: [WISPA] Indoor deployment question
Are you talking indoor or outdoor? - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: os10ru...@gmail.com Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 7:15 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Indoor deployment question As APs I'm running Bullets with gain antennas, PS2's and NS2's so I've got the gain and great signals. I'm in a place where there's no interference of any kind. I'm already in the sweet spot as far as signal strength goes and clients are connecting at 54Mbps. What more is there to gain? Greg On Nov 22, 2009, at 8:09 PM, 3-dB Networks wrote: Your average Wi-Fi AP comes with a 3dBi antenna or even a unity gain antenna... every 3-dB increase is double the power... The trick though isn't that its pointing a 10dBi antenna pattern at a client, its that its taking it one step further and pointing that at the best possible path to the client, which in an indoor environment is rarely the most direct path. I could pull out a few graphs that Ruckus has done to illustrate the point... but the Toms Hardware article is the most unbiased review of the gear out there Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of os10ru...@gmail.com Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 4:02 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Indoor deployment question Seems hard to believe that if I took a 10dbi antenna which isn't all that much gain and put it on my AP and pointed it at my client I'd see that much of a gain. Greg On Nov 22, 2009, at 5:43 PM, 3-dB Networks wrote: There are over 4,000 antenna patterns, with the relative gain of the best ones up to 10dBi... the magic is though that the AP also uses the patterns they transmit on to receive on... so the gain is bi-directional instead of blasting the signal out but not having any mechanism in place for the client to be heard. The AP can also selectively put noise in up to a -15dBi null... which can be helpful. I would be curious in what indoor environment there isn't multi-path :-) Anyways, if you have doubts... Tom's Hardware (which is as unbiased as it gets) did some testing against Cisco and Aruba. If you want to see the power of beamforming, I'd encourage you to read this article all the way through. It gives a very detailed explanation of the magic behind Ruckus. http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/beamforming-wifi-ruckus,2390.html Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of os10ru...@gmail.com Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 3:26 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Indoor deployment question Does Ruckus state their antenna gain anywhere? If their beam forming gain isn't all that much higher than the competition's omni gain then the performance couldn't be all that much better unless there's noise or multi path issues. Greg On Nov 22, 2009, at 5:13 PM, 3-dB Networks wrote: Depends on your definition of economical :-) Ruckus has meshing built in to all of their AP's... plus with the antenna array built into these babies you can usually get by with deploying 1/2 as many AP's... so it can end up costing less than a roll your own Mikrotik system Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 3:01 PM To: wireless@wispa.org Subject: [WISPA] Indoor deployment question I would prefer copper to link indoor APs. If that won't work due to either technical issues or the customer just plain doesn't want holes drilled, is WDS pretty much the only financially viable alternative that properly bridges the network? Could do a boat-load of PtP links, but that'd be silly. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless
Re: [WISPA] Indoor deployment question
AP's mostly outdoors, clients indoors. On Nov 22, 2009, at 8:33 PM, Mike Hammett wrote: Are you talking indoor or outdoor? - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: os10ru...@gmail.com Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 7:15 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Indoor deployment question As APs I'm running Bullets with gain antennas, PS2's and NS2's so I've got the gain and great signals. I'm in a place where there's no interference of any kind. I'm already in the sweet spot as far as signal strength goes and clients are connecting at 54Mbps. What more is there to gain? Greg On Nov 22, 2009, at 8:09 PM, 3-dB Networks wrote: Your average Wi-Fi AP comes with a 3dBi antenna or even a unity gain antenna... every 3-dB increase is double the power... The trick though isn't that its pointing a 10dBi antenna pattern at a client, its that its taking it one step further and pointing that at the best possible path to the client, which in an indoor environment is rarely the most direct path. I could pull out a few graphs that Ruckus has done to illustrate the point... but the Toms Hardware article is the most unbiased review of the gear out there Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of os10ru...@gmail.com Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 4:02 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Indoor deployment question Seems hard to believe that if I took a 10dbi antenna which isn't all that much gain and put it on my AP and pointed it at my client I'd see that much of a gain. Greg On Nov 22, 2009, at 5:43 PM, 3-dB Networks wrote: There are over 4,000 antenna patterns, with the relative gain of the best ones up to 10dBi... the magic is though that the AP also uses the patterns they transmit on to receive on... so the gain is bi-directional instead of blasting the signal out but not having any mechanism in place for the client to be heard. The AP can also selectively put noise in up to a -15dBi null... which can be helpful. I would be curious in what indoor environment there isn't multi-path :-) Anyways, if you have doubts... Tom's Hardware (which is as unbiased as it gets) did some testing against Cisco and Aruba. If you want to see the power of beamforming, I'd encourage you to read this article all the way through. It gives a very detailed explanation of the magic behind Ruckus. http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/beamforming-wifi-ruckus,2390.html Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of os10ru...@gmail.com Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 3:26 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Indoor deployment question Does Ruckus state their antenna gain anywhere? If their beam forming gain isn't all that much higher than the competition's omni gain then the performance couldn't be all that much better unless there's noise or multi path issues. Greg On Nov 22, 2009, at 5:13 PM, 3-dB Networks wrote: Depends on your definition of economical :-) Ruckus has meshing built in to all of their AP's... plus with the antenna array built into these babies you can usually get by with deploying 1/2 as many AP's... so it can end up costing less than a roll your own Mikrotik system Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 3:01 PM To: wireless@wispa.org Subject: [WISPA] Indoor deployment question I would prefer copper to link indoor APs. If that won't work due to either technical issues or the customer just plain doesn't want holes drilled, is WDS pretty much the only financially viable alternative that properly bridges the network? Could do a boat-load of PtP links, but that'd be silly. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless
Re: [WISPA] Indoor deployment question
we have some vivato panels and go networks aps out there. to see beamforming in action is pretty cool. Sent from my iPhone On Nov 22, 2009, at 5:19 PM, 3-dB Networks wi...@3-db.net wrote: The gear isn't designed to be deployed in a house in suburbia (well with the exception of media flex)... it competes in the enterprise market with Cisco, Aruba, Meraki, Aerohive, Symbol, etc. etc. etc. Its designed to be deployed in schools, in hospitals, in hotels, in the SMB... where there is no IT staff to learn Mikrotik and where performance is critical. There is a whole laundry list of features Ruckus has that are patented... beamforming is just the cool one for the geeks. Read up on the 802.11n protocol... and you will see beamforming is part of it. Ruckus holds a lot of patents on their antenna technology... which complicates other vendors from doing it. Furthermore, it's all about how a company looks at Wi-Fi. Almost every other companies AP is an AP is an AP with very similar characteristics, because the engineers focus on the software or feature sets and let the chipset manufacturers do all of the radio design. Ruckus realizes to truly make Wi-Fi better you have to make the antenna array, the radio, all better too. I was skeptical of the product once too... then I saw what it could do in person and was amazed. I've now had the joy of showing off the product to plenty of IT staff, people that get Wi-Fi, etc and see their jaws drop when they see what this product can actually do. In the Toms Hardware test... the Aruba gear was in there to provide the baseline for everyone else's Wi-Fi. The results speak for themselves. To each their own, for sure :-) Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of os10ru...@gmail.com Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 6:09 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Indoor deployment question Does a sector work any better when there's no interference or when there's just a few clients? In a highly urban area like an apartment building that's flooded with microwave ovens, cordless phones etc sure. But what about a house in suburbia where there's no real interference? I guess that Ruckus is the only one doing it makes me question the urgency. Though I have to admit that at one time I was considering deploying their products. I like the concept and I'd love to try them. But I fell prey to the allure of MT and UBNT and once I started deploying that I wanted to stay compatible. I think now my dream machine would be any great hardware (at a good price) that could run RouterOS. I would love to see UBNT and MT get together on some gear. To each is own. Greg On Nov 22, 2009, at 6:43 PM, Mike Hammett wrote: No, because it does beamforming. I believe Dan said it can use 4000 different antenna patterns. What's better performing, an omni with a 30 dB radio or say an array of 6 sectors? What about 4000 sectors? - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: os10ru...@gmail.com Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 4:57 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Indoor deployment question Yeah, I saw that, many times. Are there any other reviews? I suspect the good performance over and above a regular high quality AP is that it's dual band mesh. The Ruckus gear is dual band mesh right? I get a lot of hits when I Google ruckus dual band mesh mediaflex but the Ruckus site isn't totally clear. Could a little more directional gain really make that much difference? I suspect head to head with other dual band mesh gear the Ruckus gear would prove to be similar in performance. It needs to be an apples to apples comparison. Greg On Nov 22, 2009, at 5:31 PM, Mike Hammett wrote: http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/beamforming-wifi-ruckus,2390.html - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: os10ru...@gmail.com Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 4:26 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Indoor deployment question Does Ruckus state their antenna gain anywhere? If their beam forming gain isn't all that much higher than the competition's omni gain then the performance couldn't be all that much better unless there's noise or multi path issues. Greg On Nov 22, 2009, at 5:13 PM, 3-dB Networks wrote: Depends on your definition of economical :-) Ruckus has meshing built in to all of their AP's... plus with the antenna array built into these babies you can usually get by with deploying 1/2 as many AP's... so it can end up costing less than
