Re: [WISPA] calea meeting with the fbi
Hi Peter, I'd like to see the powerpoints! Dylan Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] 608-588-8010 PO Box 668 Best, -- Dylan Oliver Primaverity, LLC -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] calea meeting with the fbi
On Wed, 7 Mar 2007, wispa wrote: While you're there... or, perhaps on your way there, please consider the fact that you and whoever is meeting there are deciding how every other WISP will structure his network and what they will be forced to spend or do. You will...or will not... set a standard, and then the FCC and FBI will...or will not...accept it, and everyone who has filed that they will be compliant persuant standards discussions will be obligated to do what is laid out in the end. You're a pretty bright guy, Marlon, and I suspect it won't take very long to see what direction this will head. You will be playing with the fates of a lot of people who did not choose this in ANY way. Choosing it (or not) is not relevant. The law is what it is. You will either choose to follow the law or not. If you choose to follow the law, fine. If you choose to NOT follow the law, fine. Either way, your fate is in YOUR hands...not Marlon or anyone else. I think you've made it abundantly clear that whatever the law says, you are intent on NOT following it I haven't filed, because I cannot say I can or cannot comply. However, if this costs more than $100 to implement (that's all I have in the bank at this moment), I will simply file stating I cannot and will not comply, period. Good deal. Don't comply. With only $100 in the bank...you can only purchase one more CPEHope you charge enough at install time to get the next one. If the FCC then desires to shut me down then, They will have to do so forcibly. I will simply write a letter to all my customers, local newspapers, and state simply that the FCC has decided to take over all internet communications in a few months, and that there's no room left for small operations, and reccommend that they direct all questions to the FCC about why thier internet service will be no more. I will cause them more grief and bury their office in irate phone calls and letters than they can possibly handle. I Let me try to understand this. You have enough sway with all your (how many customers) to cause the FCC's office more grief...than they can handle? And, you only have $100 in the bank? Something isn't adding up. Maybe I missed something. know several sites where I can reach millions who WILL be activists, if we're not going to act. I'm absolutely positive they Hmm...Why haven't you used these sites to run for office? It seems to me that you would prefer a life as a politician (I mean besides stating on a public list that you intend to NOT comply with the laws established by regulatory agencies that affect you in a way you don't like). Other than that one little issue, I'd guess you would be a great politician (and likely have more than $100 to show for it). I suggest you pass this on to the FCC and FBI, along with my estimation that at least 20% of all small operators will do exactly the same. I am SICK AND TIRED of being fed to the wolves without the slightest resistance. You, of all people, should know what it And just who is doing the feeding, Mark? Marlon? The FCC? WISPA? and casual networks, small community and free networks, small joint efforts by a few people to get for themselves what they have a right to get. All possibly being wiped out by careless and overreaching federal agencies. Who's gonna stick up for them? WISPA's just bleating and going along like blind sheep. Mark...You are speaking of things you haven't a clue about. What makes you thing WISPA is bleating and going along like blind sheep? The fact that we (I'm working with them to help create the standards) are trying to create a standard to provide LEAs with information that they need? Is that what it is? I'm confused...someone is feeding you to the wolves and WISPA is a group of sheep. Perhaps you can clear this up for me. I STILL cannot believe we're walking into this without a single official objection from WISPA or the other organizations supposedly on our side. I guess I should not be surprised. Expedience has become the religion of our times. Like rolling over and playing dead is going to earn us brownie points and favors later? Don't count on it. Objection to WHAT? You aren't making ANY sense! Will I help law enforcement track down and prosecute people who are breaking the law or otherwise a threat? No question at all, of COURSE I WILL. I will NOT pre-tap thier connection in any way that Now who is talking out of both sides of his mouth? of COURSE I WILL? You said earlier that you will NOT comply. Now I don't know if I agree with you or not. Perhaps your real calling IS as a politician...(just something to think about, with your support of millions). compromises my security or their security, costs me significantly, or is in my view, unconstitutional (which is pretty much anyting done ahead of time). That, as a citizen, is my duty. If that costs me my future and
Re: [WISPA] calea meeting with the fbi
Persoanlly, I still do not understand the uproar. I do not see where there are any signficant costs in complying to Calea for most WISPs. The Lobby effort, to make a couple trips to the FBI, costs more than it does to implement compliance in many cases. The only issue with CALEA is to make sure they continue to support Linux based formats, as already proposed, so we just have to add a few lines of code, and not convert our entire network to CISCO :-) Calea is not about compliance, thats a given, its about understanding what is compliance, s owe know what to do. Its just like OSHA, its easy to comply, where the primary goal is to make the company aware, and document their awareness, to do the things they already should be doing anyway. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 5:07 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] calea meeting with the fbi Great solution Marty. Really. Patrick -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marty Dougherty Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 2:01 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] calea meeting with the fbi ...How about we pass on the cost to our customers with a CALEA surcharge- Send a message out to the customers that we HAVE to charge you xx per month to support the govt efforts to wiretap the masses or to support the Govt efforts to keep us safe from perverts and terrorist... Marty __ Marty Dougherty CEO Roadstar Internet Inc This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(84). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] calea meeting with the fbi
On Thu, 8 Mar 2007 02:22:57 -0600 (CST), Butch Evans wrote On Wed, 7 Mar 2007, wispa wrote: While you're there... or, perhaps on your way there, please consider the fact that you and whoever is meeting there are deciding how every other WISP will structure his network and what they will be forced to spend or do. You will...or will not... set a standard, and then the FCC and FBI will...or will not...accept it, and everyone who has filed that they will be compliant persuant standards discussions will be obligated to do what is laid out in the end. You're a pretty bright guy, Marlon, and I suspect it won't take very long to see what direction this will head. You will be playing with the fates of a lot of people who did not choose this in ANY way. Choosing it (or not) is not relevant. The law is what it is. Yes, the law is what it is. It was NEVER written to apply to ISP's nor internet services. Those are additions to the law that the FCC tacked on at a whim. The FCC has no authority to write law, only Congress can do that. This is why the FCC now holds contradictory views on whether an ISP is an information service or a telecommunications service. Depending on the issues, like taxes vs CALEA, we are, or we are NOT a telecommunications service. Understand? We are and we are not, all at the same time, so that it's convenient to require CALEA, but they can exempt us from other regulations, because we're not. THIS WILL BE RESOLVED, and not likely in our favor unless we begin arguing back! You will either choose to follow the law or not. If you choose to follow the law, fine. If you choose to NOT follow the law, fine. Either way, your fate is in YOUR hands...not Marlon or anyone else. I think you've made it abundantly clear that whatever the law says, you are intent on NOT following it Actually, I am following the law, it's the FCC that playing games here, attempting to cross a chasm in two leaps. This is why I keep saying we MUST object. I haven't filed, because I cannot say I can or cannot comply. However, if this costs more than $100 to implement (that's all I have in the bank at this moment), I will simply file stating I cannot and will not comply, period. Good deal. Don't comply. With only $100 in the bank...you can only purchase one more CPEHope you charge enough at install time to get the next one. You don't need to worry about my business issues, Butch. Trust me, we're in very sold shape. If the FCC then desires to shut me down then, They will have to do so forcibly. I will simply write a letter to all my customers, local newspapers, and state simply that the FCC has decided to take over all internet communications in a few months, and that there's no room left for small operations, and reccommend that they direct all questions to the FCC about why thier internet service will be no more. I will cause them more grief and bury their office in irate phone calls and letters than they can possibly handle. I Let me try to understand this. You have enough sway with all your (how many customers) to cause the FCC's office more grief...than they can handle? And, you only have $100 in the bank? Something isn't adding up. Maybe I missed something. Yeah, you missed a lot, Butch. Like how fast the FCC is buried just by frivolous applications for 3650 STA's...??? Remember Patrick's comments... understaffed, underbudgeted.. know several sites where I can reach millions who WILL be activists, if we're not going to act. I'm absolutely positive they Hmm...Why haven't you used these sites to run for office? It seems to me that you would prefer a life as a politician (I mean besides stating on a public list that you intend to NOT comply with the laws established by regulatory agencies that affect you in a way you don't like). Other than that one little issue, I'd guess you would be a great politician (and likely have more than $100 to show for it). You'd not like me in politics. I'm always this defensive of principle and always this blunt. I suggest you pass this on to the FCC and FBI, along with my estimation that at least 20% of all small operators will do exactly the same. I am SICK AND TIRED of being fed to the wolves without the slightest resistance. You, of all people, should know what it And just who is doing the feeding, Mark? Marlon? The FCC? WISPA? One must sit back and ask himself, who stuck our collective heads up in front of the regulators, asked for stuff, and then never even said boo when the FCC started making capricious rulings? and casual networks, small community and free networks, small joint efforts by a few people to get for themselves what they have a right to get. All possibly being wiped out by careless and overreaching federal agencies. Who's gonna stick up for them? WISPA's just bleating and
Re: [WISPA] calea meeting with the fbi
Mark and Butch, I want to thank both of you. I feared that the quality and tone of this discussion was taking a negative turn but I WAS WRONG. I've found your discussion of the CALEA issue and the ramifications to the WISP industry to be interesting, informative and valuable. I'd like to commend both of you gentlemen for having the commitment and the courage to share your opinions in this open forum. Your discussions have helped me to clarify the CALEA issues in my mind. Hopefully it will help others to clarify their thinking as well. Although your political views may not be perfectly identical to each other, I sense that you both respect the Constitution and the Rule of Law and that you both want to do what you believe is correct. Thank you again. jack wispa wrote: On Thu, 8 Mar 2007 02:22:57 -0600 (CST), Butch Evans wrote On Wed, 7 Mar 2007, wispa wrote: While you're there... or, perhaps on your way there, please consider the fact that you and whoever is meeting there are deciding how every other WISP will structure his network and what they will be forced to spend or do. You will...or will not... set a standard, and then the FCC and FBI will...or will not...accept it, and everyone who has filed that they will be compliant persuant standards discussions will be obligated to do what is laid out in the end. You're a pretty bright guy, Marlon, and I suspect it won't take very long to see what direction this will head. You will be playing with the fates of a lot of people who did not choose this in ANY way. Choosing it (or not) is not relevant. The law is what it is. Yes, the law is what it is. It was NEVER written to apply to ISP's nor internet services. Those are additions to the law that the FCC tacked on at a whim. The FCC has no authority to write law, only Congress can do that. This is why the FCC now holds contradictory views on whether an ISP is an information service or a telecommunications service. Depending on the issues, like taxes vs CALEA, we are, or we are NOT a telecommunications service. Understand? We are and we are not, all at the same time, so that it's convenient to require CALEA, but they can exempt us from other regulations, because we're not. THIS WILL BE RESOLVED, and not likely in our favor unless we begin arguing back! You will either choose to follow the law or not. If you choose to follow the law, fine. If you choose to NOT follow the law, fine. Either way, your fate is in YOUR hands...not Marlon or anyone else. I think you've made it abundantly clear that whatever the law says, you are intent on NOT following it Actually, I am following the law, it's the FCC that playing games here, attempting to cross a chasm in two leaps. This is why I keep saying we MUST object. I haven't filed, because I cannot say I can or cannot comply. However, if this costs more than $100 to implement (that's all I have in the bank at this moment), I will simply file stating I cannot and will not comply, period. Good deal. Don't comply. With only $100 in the bank...you can only purchase one more CPEHope you charge enough at install time to get the next one. You don't need to worry about my business issues, Butch. Trust me, we're in very sold shape. If the FCC then desires to shut me down then, They will have to do so forcibly. I will simply write a letter to all my customers, local newspapers, and state simply that the FCC has decided to take over all internet communications in a few months, and that there's no room left for small operations, and reccommend that they direct all questions to the FCC about why thier internet service will be no more. I will cause them more grief and bury their office in irate phone calls and letters than they can possibly handle. I Let me try to understand this. You have enough sway with all your (how many customers) to cause the FCC's office more grief...than they can handle? And, you only have $100 in the bank? Something isn't adding up. Maybe I missed something. Yeah, you missed a lot, Butch. Like how fast the FCC is buried just by frivolous applications for 3650 STA's...??? Remember Patrick's comments... understaffed, underbudgeted.. know several sites where I can reach millions who WILL be activists, if we're not going to act. I'm absolutely positive they Hmm...Why haven't you used these sites to run for office? It seems to me that you would prefer a life as a politician (I mean besides stating on a public list that you intend to NOT comply with the laws established by regulatory agencies that affect you in a way you don't like). Other than that one little issue, I'd guess you would be a great politician (and likely have more than $100 to show for it). You'd not like me in politics. I'm always this defensive of principle and always this blunt. I suggest you pass this on to the FCC and
Re: [WISPA] calea meeting with the fbi
On Thu, 08 Mar 2007 10:24:12 -0800, Jack Unger wrote Mark and Butch, I want to thank both of you. I feared that the quality and tone of this discussion was taking a negative turn but I WAS WRONG. I've found your discussion of the CALEA issue and the ramifications to the WISP industry to be interesting, informative and valuable. I'd like to commend both of you gentlemen for having the commitment and the courage to share your opinions in this open forum. Your discussions have helped me to clarify the CALEA issues in my mind. Hopefully it will help others to clarify their thinking as well. Although your political views may not be perfectly identical to each other, I sense that you both respect the Constitution and the Rule of Law and that you both want to do what you believe is correct. Thank you again. jack Thanks Jack. Pardon me while I say one last bit on this rant. The RIGHT way this is to be done, is for the FCC to un rule we're telecommunications providers, the same for VOIP and so on, and let the DOJ and FBI go back to Congress, who re-writes the rules, and supplies the funds to implement whatever it is they really want, and complies with our Constitution. In the meantime, let them ask US how data extraction works, let US find ways it can be done, develop reasonable levels we should be required to go through to attempt to recover the data they want. Just like CALEA did for the telcos, they can fund the software changes and implementation costs - Let law enforcement come meet us and ask US how best to get ahold of data tehy want or need. In the meantime, this idea of open-ended demands with obscure requirements and almost laughably vague language needs to be tossed down the drain. Let them develop ways and means of talking IP to us, let Congress fund that research so THEY do the conversions, not us or someone we're supposed to freaking PAY to do it for us, and then we need a target of what and how to deliver data. Yeah, we're going to have to meeet with the FBI and DOJ and develop reasonable mechanisms... but it should be them asking US, not us coming around with our hat in hand saying please don't bury us in costs for some arcane type of mechanism that's not even workable on our networks with a big hairy fine as a stick big enough to bury small guys like me. One single 10K fine and i'm bankrupt. And the rules offer no recourse. Doesn't actually MATTER if you think you comply. If it doesn't work in the end like they want, the fine can be levied anyway and capriciously. This is wrong too... Vague laws are unconstituional, we all know that. But most of all, it needs to be voted in Congress. Let Congress take the heat like they should, when they have to vote to spy on your internet use - and require everyone to be ready. This whole thing is a tragedy of spineless beaurocrats. Congress wrote a law, the law was obsolete in a very short period of time, but rather than get Congress to fix its own mess, the DOJ and FBI and FCC are attempting to misapply a law, and since they cannot spend federal money without Congress voting it for them, they're attempting to dump the cost on us. The DOJ rather than face Congress and public opinion, sought to get a shortcut from the FCC, who rather than demand it be done right, simply sidestepped and dumped the responsibility to object UPON US, by writing patently wrong rules that deserve to lose instantly if legally challenged, so THEY didn't have to argue. And we, ( Yeah, I consider myself guilty ) did not object. Heck, we DIDNT EVEN KNOW BECAUSE WE WERE NOT LOOKING. This is wrong on so many levels, it reeks. What's worse, is that it CAN lose in court, it can be challenged and beaten in court, and if that happens, then literally, the FBI And DOJ are without the legal tools they probably ought to have. I know, this isn't supposed to be a political list...and I'm not being partisan here. We're businessmen second, after we're citizens. We SHOULD object when stuff is done wrong. Why do you think Congress appropriated money for CALEA in the first place? Because no way could they have gotten away with NOT doing it. It's our ( collectively... including me ) fault for not objecting long ago... But if we don't, we have done ourselves a disservice. We've done our country AND OURSELVES a disservice by letting bad law, bad precedent, bad policy be implemented that will eventually have bad results, probably for all involved. If we don't object, if we don't stand up and make it be done right, we'll simply find more of the same piled on top of CALEA. And we'll have set the precedent that it's perfectly fine and we'll cooperate. IT WILL BE TOO LATE to set things right without a HUGE fight. We need the public on our side. We need to get with the various legal groups who exist to help stop this kind of abuse. We need to indicate both our
Re: [WISPA] calea meeting with the fbi
I agree. I see it this way too. I can't see them forcing CALEA onto hotspot operators like McDonalds, Starbucks, etc. Technically they're a WISP too. I'll operate my service just like they do. What about muni-WIFI? How does CALEA play into that? If this goes the wrong way, I'm going to convert all of my customers to prepaid hotspot users, anonymous (nothing but a card #). You take the equipment, install it where you want and the most I'm going to know is that it's on Tower B, Sector 3 and they have a 77% signal. Go find them. - Original Message - From: wispa [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 4:48 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] calea meeting with the fbi On Thu, 08 Mar 2007 10:24:12 -0800, Jack Unger wrote Mark and Butch, I want to thank both of you. I feared that the quality and tone of this discussion was taking a negative turn but I WAS WRONG. I've found your discussion of the CALEA issue and the ramifications to the WISP industry to be interesting, informative and valuable. I'd like to commend both of you gentlemen for having the commitment and the courage to share your opinions in this open forum. Your discussions have helped me to clarify the CALEA issues in my mind. Hopefully it will help others to clarify their thinking as well. Although your political views may not be perfectly identical to each other, I sense that you both respect the Constitution and the Rule of Law and that you both want to do what you believe is correct. Thank you again. jack Thanks Jack. Pardon me while I say one last bit on this rant. The RIGHT way this is to be done, is for the FCC to un rule we're telecommunications providers, the same for VOIP and so on, and let the DOJ and FBI go back to Congress, who re-writes the rules, and supplies the funds to implement whatever it is they really want, and complies with our Constitution. In the meantime, let them ask US how data extraction works, let US find ways it can be done, develop reasonable levels we should be required to go through to attempt to recover the data they want. Just like CALEA did for the telcos, they can fund the software changes and implementation costs - Let law enforcement come meet us and ask US how best to get ahold of data tehy want or need. In the meantime, this idea of open-ended demands with obscure requirements and almost laughably vague language needs to be tossed down the drain. Let them develop ways and means of talking IP to us, let Congress fund that research so THEY do the conversions, not us or someone we're supposed to freaking PAY to do it for us, and then we need a target of what and how to deliver data. Yeah, we're going to have to meeet with the FBI and DOJ and develop reasonable mechanisms... but it should be them asking US, not us coming around with our hat in hand saying please don't bury us in costs for some arcane type of mechanism that's not even workable on our networks with a big hairy fine as a stick big enough to bury small guys like me. One single 10K fine and i'm bankrupt. And the rules offer no recourse. Doesn't actually MATTER if you think you comply. If it doesn't work in the end like they want, the fine can be levied anyway and capriciously. This is wrong too... Vague laws are unconstituional, we all know that. But most of all, it needs to be voted in Congress. Let Congress take the heat like they should, when they have to vote to spy on your internet use - and require everyone to be ready. This whole thing is a tragedy of spineless beaurocrats. Congress wrote a law, the law was obsolete in a very short period of time, but rather than get Congress to fix its own mess, the DOJ and FBI and FCC are attempting to misapply a law, and since they cannot spend federal money without Congress voting it for them, they're attempting to dump the cost on us. The DOJ rather than face Congress and public opinion, sought to get a shortcut from the FCC, who rather than demand it be done right, simply sidestepped and dumped the responsibility to object UPON US, by writing patently wrong rules that deserve to lose instantly if legally challenged, so THEY didn't have to argue. And we, ( Yeah, I consider myself guilty ) did not object. Heck, we DIDNT EVEN KNOW BECAUSE WE WERE NOT LOOKING. This is wrong on so many levels, it reeks. What's worse, is that it CAN lose in court, it can be challenged and beaten in court, and if that happens, then literally, the FBI And DOJ are without the legal tools they probably ought to have. I know, this isn't supposed to be a political list...and I'm not being partisan here. We're businessmen second, after we're citizens. We SHOULD object when stuff is done wrong. Why do you think Congress appropriated money for CALEA in the first place? Because no way could they have gotten away with NOT doing it. It's
Re: [WISPA] calea meeting with the fbi
For about 20% of my users, that is all I can do packets from/to my MESH based towers I can't break down to individual users. Some of them can't even be broken down to individual towers... Doug Ratcliffe wrote: I agree. I see it this way too. I can't see them forcing CALEA onto hotspot operators like McDonalds, Starbucks, etc. Technically they're a WISP too. I'll operate my service just like they do. What about muni-WIFI? How does CALEA play into that? If this goes the wrong way, I'm going to convert all of my customers to prepaid hotspot users, anonymous (nothing but a card #). You take the equipment, install it where you want and the most I'm going to know is that it's on Tower B, Sector 3 and they have a 77% signal. Go find them. - Original Message - From: wispa [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 4:48 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] calea meeting with the fbi On Thu, 08 Mar 2007 10:24:12 -0800, Jack Unger wrote Mark and Butch, I want to thank both of you. I feared that the quality and tone of this discussion was taking a negative turn but I WAS WRONG. I've found your discussion of the CALEA issue and the ramifications to the WISP industry to be interesting, informative and valuable. I'd like to commend both of you gentlemen for having the commitment and the courage to share your opinions in this open forum. Your discussions have helped me to clarify the CALEA issues in my mind. Hopefully it will help others to clarify their thinking as well. Although your political views may not be perfectly identical to each other, I sense that you both respect the Constitution and the Rule of Law and that you both want to do what you believe is correct. Thank you again. jack Thanks Jack. Pardon me while I say one last bit on this rant. The RIGHT way this is to be done, is for the FCC to un rule we're telecommunications providers, the same for VOIP and so on, and let the DOJ and FBI go back to Congress, who re-writes the rules, and supplies the funds to implement whatever it is they really want, and complies with our Constitution. In the meantime, let them ask US how data extraction works, let US find ways it can be done, develop reasonable levels we should be required to go through to attempt to recover the data they want. Just like CALEA did for the telcos, they can fund the software changes and implementation costs - Let law enforcement come meet us and ask US how best to get ahold of data tehy want or need. In the meantime, this idea of open-ended demands with obscure requirements and almost laughably vague language needs to be tossed down the drain. Let them develop ways and means of talking IP to us, let Congress fund that research so THEY do the conversions, not us or someone we're supposed to freaking PAY to do it for us, and then we need a target of what and how to deliver data. Yeah, we're going to have to meeet with the FBI and DOJ and develop reasonable mechanisms... but it should be them asking US, not us coming around with our hat in hand saying please don't bury us in costs for some arcane type of mechanism that's not even workable on our networks with a big hairy fine as a stick big enough to bury small guys like me. One single 10K fine and i'm bankrupt. And the rules offer no recourse. Doesn't actually MATTER if you think you comply. If it doesn't work in the end like they want, the fine can be levied anyway and capriciously. This is wrong too... Vague laws are unconstituional, we all know that. But most of all, it needs to be voted in Congress. Let Congress take the heat like they should, when they have to vote to spy on your internet use - and require everyone to be ready. This whole thing is a tragedy of spineless beaurocrats. Congress wrote a law, the law was obsolete in a very short period of time, but rather than get Congress to fix its own mess, the DOJ and FBI and FCC are attempting to misapply a law, and since they cannot spend federal money without Congress voting it for them, they're attempting to dump the cost on us. The DOJ rather than face Congress and public opinion, sought to get a shortcut from the FCC, who rather than demand it be done right, simply sidestepped and dumped the responsibility to object UPON US, by writing patently wrong rules that deserve to lose instantly if legally challenged, so THEY didn't have to argue. And we, ( Yeah, I consider myself guilty ) did not object. Heck, we DIDNT EVEN KNOW BECAUSE WE WERE NOT LOOKING. This is wrong on so many levels, it reeks. What's worse, is that it CAN lose in court, it can be challenged and beaten in court, and if that happens, then literally, the FBI And DOJ are without the legal tools they probably ought to have
Re: [WISPA] calea meeting with the fbi
Maybe it's time to file to be a library or school... I'm not an ISP - I'm an informational internet research service providing services to students who are enrolled in our access program. Ridiculous... this is all ridiculous. - Original Message - From: Blair Davis [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 6:56 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] calea meeting with the fbi For about 20% of my users, that is all I can do packets from/to my MESH based towers I can't break down to individual users. Some of them can't even be broken down to individual towers... Doug Ratcliffe wrote: I agree. I see it this way too. I can't see them forcing CALEA onto hotspot operators like McDonalds, Starbucks, etc. Technically they're a WISP too. I'll operate my service just like they do. What about muni-WIFI? How does CALEA play into that? If this goes the wrong way, I'm going to convert all of my customers to prepaid hotspot users, anonymous (nothing but a card #). You take the equipment, install it where you want and the most I'm going to know is that it's on Tower B, Sector 3 and they have a 77% signal. Go find them. - Original Message - From: wispa [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 4:48 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] calea meeting with the fbi On Thu, 08 Mar 2007 10:24:12 -0800, Jack Unger wrote Mark and Butch, I want to thank both of you. I feared that the quality and tone of this discussion was taking a negative turn but I WAS WRONG. I've found your discussion of the CALEA issue and the ramifications to the WISP industry to be interesting, informative and valuable. I'd like to commend both of you gentlemen for having the commitment and the courage to share your opinions in this open forum. Your discussions have helped me to clarify the CALEA issues in my mind. Hopefully it will help others to clarify their thinking as well. Although your political views may not be perfectly identical to each other, I sense that you both respect the Constitution and the Rule of Law and that you both want to do what you believe is correct. Thank you again. jack Thanks Jack. Pardon me while I say one last bit on this rant. The RIGHT way this is to be done, is for the FCC to un rule we're telecommunications providers, the same for VOIP and so on, and let the DOJ and FBI go back to Congress, who re-writes the rules, and supplies the funds to implement whatever it is they really want, and complies with our Constitution. In the meantime, let them ask US how data extraction works, let US find ways it can be done, develop reasonable levels we should be required to go through to attempt to recover the data they want. Just like CALEA did for the telcos, they can fund the software changes and implementation costs - Let law enforcement come meet us and ask US how best to get ahold of data tehy want or need. In the meantime, this idea of open-ended demands with obscure requirements and almost laughably vague language needs to be tossed down the drain. Let them develop ways and means of talking IP to us, let Congress fund that research so THEY do the conversions, not us or someone we're supposed to freaking PAY to do it for us, and then we need a target of what and how to deliver data. Yeah, we're going to have to meeet with the FBI and DOJ and develop reasonable mechanisms... but it should be them asking US, not us coming around with our hat in hand saying please don't bury us in costs for some arcane type of mechanism that's not even workable on our networks with a big hairy fine as a stick big enough to bury small guys like me. One single 10K fine and i'm bankrupt. And the rules offer no recourse. Doesn't actually MATTER if you think you comply. If it doesn't work in the end like they want, the fine can be levied anyway and capriciously. This is wrong too... Vague laws are unconstituional, we all know that. But most of all, it needs to be voted in Congress. Let Congress take the heat like they should, when they have to vote to spy on your internet use - and require everyone to be ready. This whole thing is a tragedy of spineless beaurocrats. Congress wrote a law, the law was obsolete in a very short period of time, but rather than get Congress to fix its own mess, the DOJ and FBI and FCC are attempting to misapply a law, and since they cannot spend federal money without Congress voting it for them, they're attempting to dump the cost on us. The DOJ rather than face Congress and public opinion, sought to get a shortcut from the FCC, who rather than demand it be done right, simply sidestepped and dumped the responsibility to object UPON US
Re: [WISPA] calea meeting with the fbi
wispa wrote: The RIGHT way this is to be done, is for the FCC to un rule we're telecommunications providers, the same for VOIP and so on, and let the DOJ and FBI go back to Congress, who re-writes the rules, and supplies the funds to implement whatever it is they really want, and complies with our Constitution. Yeah, that will happen. The FCC realizes that the PSTN is tipping and that we still have a need to catch terrorists and pedophiles. But hey that's just my rational take on it. I'm at VPF where SS8 and Acme Packet have gone over Lawful Intercept extensively. Want a copy of the PowerPoint? You have to send me you contact info. Regards, Peter Radizeski RAD-INFO, Inc. - NSP Strategist We Help ISPs Connect Communicate 813.963.5884 http://www.marketingIDEAguy.com -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] calea meeting with the fbi
On Wed, 7 Mar 2007 10:35:29 -0800, Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote Hi All, We have a meeting set up for the 22nd in Va. I have 4 people set to go to it at this time but I'd like a 5th. I'm after a network admin type. Anyone have the time and recourses available? Or if I missed your offer earlier, please let me know. I have to get info to the FBI ASAP so if you can send a network admin to this meeting (and possibly join our calea standards committee) please let me know. WISPA member companies will have first crack at this, but I'll conceder others as well. While you're there... or, perhaps on your way there, please consider the fact that you and whoever is meeting there are deciding how every other WISP will structure his network and what they will be forced to spend or do. You will...or will not... set a standard, and then the FCC and FBI will...or will not...accept it, and everyone who has filed that they will be compliant persuant standards discussions will be obligated to do what is laid out in the end. You're a pretty bright guy, Marlon, and I suspect it won't take very long to see what direction this will head. You will be playing with the fates of a lot of people who did not choose this in ANY way. I haven't filed, because I cannot say I can or cannot comply. However, if this costs more than $100 to implement (that's all I have in the bank at this moment), I will simply file stating I cannot and will not comply, period. If the FCC then desires to shut me down then, They will have to do so forcibly. I will simply write a letter to all my customers, local newspapers, and state simply that the FCC has decided to take over all internet communications in a few months, and that there's no room left for small operations, and reccommend that they direct all questions to the FCC about why thier internet service will be no more. I will cause them more grief and bury their office in irate phone calls and letters than they can possibly handle. I know several sites where I can reach millions who WILL be activists, if we're not going to act. I'm absolutely positive they have NEVER even considered the notion (and probably do not care in the slightest) that what they do could devastate people's individual lives or futures. Nor do I think they care at all about anything but their own convenience and political futures. I doubt a single person involved on the regulator's end considers that since they decided to take on and regulate an industry which is probably populated with the highest percentage of small operators (1 to 5 people) of any industry they've ever even dreamed of regulating, what they do is PERSONAL to thousands of people, and directly will impact the lives of hundreds of thousands of other individuals. Living in the isolated and unreal world of Washington DC does that to people. I suggest you pass this on to the FCC and FBI, along with my estimation that at least 20% of all small operators will do exactly the same. I am SICK AND TIRED of being fed to the wolves without the slightest resistance. You, of all people, should know what it means to be a small, one or two man operation living out in the hinterland, where the rubber meets the road. There will be small and casual networks, small community and free networks, small joint efforts by a few people to get for themselves what they have a right to get. All possibly being wiped out by careless and overreaching federal agencies. Who's gonna stick up for them? WISPA's just bleating and going along like blind sheep. I STILL cannot believe we're walking into this without a single official objection from WISPA or the other organizations supposedly on our side. I guess I should not be surprised. Expedience has become the religion of our times. Like rolling over and playing dead is going to earn us brownie points and favors later? Don't count on it. Will I help law enforcement track down and prosecute people who are breaking the law or otherwise a threat? No question at all, of COURSE I WILL. I will NOT pre-tap thier connection in any way that compromises my security or their security, costs me significantly, or is in my view, unconstitutional (which is pretty much anyting done ahead of time). That, as a citizen, is my duty. If that costs me my future and business, it's a small price to pay for what people have given their lives before me to preserve. If I can preserve that for a few people for while... I WILL DO IT. Damn, people, STAND UP FOR ONCE. mark at neofast dot net neofast, Inc, wireless internet for the Walla Walla Valley and Blue Mountains 541-969-8200 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] calea meeting with the fbi
Sigh. First, the mission statement for WISPA, just so's we're all on the same page about motivations: Wireless Internet Service Providers Association is dedicated to promoting and improving the WISP industry. Second, if you don't like it, join us in our efforts at the regulatory level. Sitting out there whining and tossing FUD around does nothing but waste our time and keep you from doing installations so that you can get more than $100 in the bank. Third, WE don't REALLY know EXACTLY what WE have to do. That's part of what the FBI meeting is about. It's not about kowtowing to the FBI, DOJ, FCC etc. It's about making sure that WE can tell YOU what is going to keep your tit out of the ringer with those people. It's also about working with them to make sure that they don't expect things that are unreasonable or pass new regs that have no regard for the realities of our industry niche. Fourth, certainly I know I'm not speaking for all WISPs. I'm speaking for WISPA. YOU get to choose whether or not you wish to agree. You can always file a statement saying you don't agree and why. The FCC loves to hear from us. Last I knew the IEEE never asked for my opinion on a standard they put in place, but I use them all day every day anyhow. Fifth, if we come up with a standard that you don't like, don't use it. Duh. There is no requirement, no way to make a requirement, nor should there be, for WISPA to force you to follow us. Feel free to follow any organization, start a new one, whatever. Sixth, don't be an ass. We're putting in our own time and usually our own money to help make this entire industry better. I don't care to be insulted for the privilege of taking away from my customers and my family. Seventh, I don't disagree with that you've said. I also think that the seatbelt laws are so much BS. But I've paid enough tickets for not wearing one that I have given in and wear mine now. In the mean time, one of these days I'm gonna run for Congress and I'll work to restore individual rights and responsibility. Till then I'll do the best I can to vote for people that respect my ability to lead my own life and my own choices. I'll also follow their dumb a$$ed rules so that I don't go broke paying tickets or end up in jail over it. Eighth, some of the things that you say people don't have to do, the lawyers constantly say that we do. Sorry, but I'm gonna put my weight on their interpretations of the rules than yours. Take care, Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: wispa [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 12:22 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] calea meeting with the fbi On Wed, 7 Mar 2007 10:35:29 -0800, Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote Hi All, We have a meeting set up for the 22nd in Va. I have 4 people set to go to it at this time but I'd like a 5th. I'm after a network admin type. Anyone have the time and recourses available? Or if I missed your offer earlier, please let me know. I have to get info to the FBI ASAP so if you can send a network admin to this meeting (and possibly join our calea standards committee) please let me know. WISPA member companies will have first crack at this, but I'll conceder others as well. While you're there... or, perhaps on your way there, please consider the fact that you and whoever is meeting there are deciding how every other WISP will structure his network and what they will be forced to spend or do. You will...or will not... set a standard, and then the FCC and FBI will...or will not...accept it, and everyone who has filed that they will be compliant persuant standards discussions will be obligated to do what is laid out in the end. You're a pretty bright guy, Marlon, and I suspect it won't take very long to see what direction this will head. You will be playing with the fates of a lot of people who did not choose this in ANY way. I haven't filed, because I cannot say I can or cannot comply. However, if this costs more than $100 to implement (that's all I have in the bank at this moment), I will simply file stating I cannot and will not comply, period. If the FCC then desires to shut me down then, They will have to do so forcibly. I will simply write a letter to all my customers, local newspapers, and state simply that the FCC has decided to take over all internet communications in a few months, and that there's no room left for small operations, and reccommend that they direct all questions to the FCC about why thier internet service will be no more. I will cause them more grief and bury their office in irate phone calls and letters than
Re: [WISPA] calea meeting with the fbi
I'm with you Marlon. I support your position. However, if I am all the support you have you better use a cane. Ron Wallace -Original Message- From: Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 7, 2007 04:36 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] calea meeting with the fbi Sigh. First, the mission statement for WISPA, just so's we're all on the same page about motivations: Wireless Internet Service Providers Association is dedicated to promoting and improving the WISP industry. Second, if you don't like it, join us in our efforts at the regulatory level. Sitting out there whining and tossing FUD around does nothing but waste our time and keep you from doing installations so that you can get more than $100 in the bank. Third, WE don't REALLY know EXACTLY what WE have to do. That's part of what the FBI meeting is about. It's not about kowtowing to the FBI, DOJ, FCC etc. It's about making sure that WE can tell YOU what is going to keep your tit out of the ringer with those people. It's also about working with them to make sure that they don't expect things that are unreasonable or pass new regs that have no regard for the realities of our industry niche. Fourth, certainly I know I'm not speaking for all WISPs. I'm speaking for WISPA. YOU get to choose whether or not you wish to agree. You can always file a statement saying you don't agree and why. The FCC loves to hear from us. Last I knew the IEEE never asked for my opinion on a standard they put in place, but I use them all day every day anyhow. Fifth, if we come up with a standard that you don't like, don't use it. Duh. There is no requirement, no way to make a requirement, nor should there be, for WISPA to force you to follow us. Feel free to follow any organization, start a new one, whatever. Sixth, don't be an ass. We're putting in our own time and usually our own money to help make this entire industry better. I don't care to be insulted for the privilege of taking away from my customers and my family. Seventh, I don't disagree with that you've said. I also think that the seatbelt laws are so much BS. But I've paid enough tickets for not wearing one that I have given in and wear mine now. In the mean time, one of these days I'm gonna run for Congress and I'll work to restore individual rights and responsibility. Till then I'll do the best I can to vote for people that respect my ability to lead my own life and my own choices. I'll also follow their dumb a$$ed rules so that I don't go broke paying tickets or end up in jail over it. Eighth, some of the things that you say people don't have to do, the lawyers constantly say that we do. Sorry, but I'm gonna put my weight on their interpretations of the rules than yours. Take care, Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage) Consulting services 42846865 (icq) And I run my own wisp! [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: wispa [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 12:22 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] calea meeting with the fbi On Wed, 7 Mar 2007 10:35:29 -0800, Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote Hi All, We have a meeting set up for the 22nd in Va. I have 4 people set to go to it at this time but I'd like a 5th. I'm after a network admin type. Anyone have the time and recourses available? Or if I missed your offer earlier, please let me know. I have to get info to the FBI ASAP so if you can send a network admin to this meeting (and possibly join our calea standards committee) please let me know. WISPA member companies will have first crack at this, but I'll conceder others as well. While you're there... or, perhaps on your way there, please consider the fact that you and whoever is meeting there are deciding how every other WISP will structure his network and what they will be forced to spend or do. You will...or will not... set a standard, and then the FCC and FBI will...or will not...accept it, and everyone who has filed that they will be compliant persuant standards discussions will be obligated to do what is laid out in the end. You're a pretty bright guy, Marlon, and I suspect it won't take very long to see what direction this will head. You will be playing with the fates of a lot of people who did not choose this in ANY way. I haven't filed, because I cannot say I can or cannot comply. However, if this costs more than $100 to implement (that's all I have in the bank at this moment), I will simply file stating I cannot and will not comply, period. If the FCC then desires to shut me down then, They will have to do so forcibly. I will simply write a letter to all my customers, local newspapers, and state simply that the FCC has decided to take over all internet communications in a few months, and that there's no room left
Re: [WISPA] calea meeting with the fbi
Mark, If you have access to reach millions, why don't you activate that little network and get them to sway the government to your cause? The can't, won't, forcibly stuff on a public, archived email list is yet another example of why the government does not like to deal with small businesses. Regards, Peter @ RAD-INFO, Inc. - Original Message - From: wispa [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 12:22 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] calea meeting with the fbi I know several sites where I can reach millions who WILL be activists, if we're not going to act. I'm absolutely positive they have NEVER even considered the notion (and probably do not care in the slightest) that what they do could devastate people's individual lives or futures. Nor do I think they care at all about anything but their own convenience and political futures. I doubt a single person involved on the regulator's end considers that since they decided to take on and regulate an industry which is probably populated with the highest percentage of small operators (1 to 5 people) of any industry they've ever even dreamed of regulating, what they do is PERSONAL to thousands of people, and directly will impact the lives of hundreds of thousands of other individuals. Living in the isolated and unreal world of Washington DC does that to people. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] calea meeting with the fbi
Mark- (I cant help myself with this one) You say However, if this costs more than $100 to implement (that's all I have in the bank at this moment), I will simply file stating I cannot and will not comply, period. How about all of the other things you will have to do in order to operate your business- especially taxes and insurance. Did you put them into your business plan? If so, then wouldn't it just make sense to include this expense into your business plan as a must have? I don't think any govt agency is going to accept we cannot afford it in response to any govt regulations or requirements we face. Calea would be no different...right? How about we pass on the cost to our customers with a CALEA surcharge- Send a message out to the customers that we HAVE to charge you xx per month to support the govt efforts to wiretap the masses or to support the Govt efforts to keep us safe from perverts and terrorist.. (depending on your political point of view.. Marty __ Marty Dougherty CEO Roadstar Internet Inc [EMAIL PROTECTED] 703-623-4542 (Cell) 703-554-6620 (office) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of wispa Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 3:23 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] calea meeting with the fbi On Wed, 7 Mar 2007 10:35:29 -0800, Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote Hi All, We have a meeting set up for the 22nd in Va. I have 4 people set to go to it at this time but I'd like a 5th. I'm after a network admin type. Anyone have the time and recourses available? Or if I missed your offer earlier, please let me know. I have to get info to the FBI ASAP so if you can send a network admin to this meeting (and possibly join our calea standards committee) please let me know. WISPA member companies will have first crack at this, but I'll conceder others as well. While you're there... or, perhaps on your way there, please consider the fact that you and whoever is meeting there are deciding how every other WISP will structure his network and what they will be forced to spend or do. You will...or will not... set a standard, and then the FCC and FBI will...or will not...accept it, and everyone who has filed that they will be compliant persuant standards discussions will be obligated to do what is laid out in the end. You're a pretty bright guy, Marlon, and I suspect it won't take very long to see what direction this will head. You will be playing with the fates of a lot of people who did not choose this in ANY way. I haven't filed, because I cannot say I can or cannot comply. However, if this costs more than $100 to implement (that's all I have in the bank at this moment), I will simply file stating I cannot and will not comply, period. If the FCC then desires to shut me down then, They will have to do so forcibly. I will simply write a letter to all my customers, local newspapers, and state simply that the FCC has decided to take over all internet communications in a few months, and that there's no room left for small operations, and reccommend that they direct all questions to the FCC about why thier internet service will be no more. I will cause them more grief and bury their office in irate phone calls and letters than they can possibly handle. I know several sites where I can reach millions who WILL be activists, if we're not going to act. I'm absolutely positive they have NEVER even considered the notion (and probably do not care in the slightest) that what they do could devastate people's individual lives or futures. Nor do I think they care at all about anything but their own convenience and political futures. I doubt a single person involved on the regulator's end considers that since they decided to take on and regulate an industry which is probably populated with the highest percentage of small operators (1 to 5 people) of any industry they've ever even dreamed of regulating, what they do is PERSONAL to thousands of people, and directly will impact the lives of hundreds of thousands of other individuals. Living in the isolated and unreal world of Washington DC does that to people. I suggest you pass this on to the FCC and FBI, along with my estimation that at least 20% of all small operators will do exactly the same. I am SICK AND TIRED of being fed to the wolves without the slightest resistance. You, of all people, should know what it means to be a small, one or two man operation living out in the hinterland, where the rubber meets the road. There will be small and casual networks, small community and free networks, small joint efforts by a few people to get for themselves what they have a right to get. All possibly being wiped out by careless and overreaching federal agencies. Who's gonna stick up for them? WISPA's just bleating and going along like blind sheep. I STILL cannot believe we're
RE: [WISPA] calea meeting with the fbi
Sigh. This thread and sparring going at the isp-wireless list on a similar thread shows just how difficult it can be for small WISPs to agree on any one issue, much less all UL wireless broadband providers across all provider segments. Even the personally-funded best of intentions (e.g. Marlon's nine years of efforts), bring rants and rages. Now imagine the no-win situation the FCC faces in trying to keep WISPs even moderately contented. As I say, it's like herding cats during a lightning storm. But I do so love this business -- never a dull moment! Patrick Leary P.S. - Marlon, think of your seatbelt as something you wear for your kids. Driving is probably statistically the most dangerous thing you do..., well, aside from climbing a tower, but you wear a harness there too! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 1:36 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] calea meeting with the fbi Sigh. First, the mission statement for WISPA, just so's we're all on the same page about motivations: Wireless Internet Service Providers Association is dedicated to promoting and improving the WISP industry. Second, if you don't like it, join us in our efforts at the regulatory level. Sitting out there whining and tossing FUD around does nothing but waste our time and keep you from doing installations so that you can get more than $100 in the bank. Third, WE don't REALLY know EXACTLY what WE have to do. That's part of what the FBI meeting is about. It's not about kowtowing to the FBI, DOJ, FCC etc. It's about making sure that WE can tell YOU what is going to keep your tit out of the ringer with those people. It's also about working with them to make sure that they don't expect things that are unreasonable or pass new regs that have no regard for the realities of our industry niche. Fourth, certainly I know I'm not speaking for all WISPs. I'm speaking for WISPA. YOU get to choose whether or not you wish to agree. You can always file a statement saying you don't agree and why. The FCC loves to hear from us. Last I knew the IEEE never asked for my opinion on a standard they put in place, but I use them all day every day anyhow. Fifth, if we come up with a standard that you don't like, don't use it. Duh. There is no requirement, no way to make a requirement, nor should there be, for WISPA to force you to follow us. Feel free to follow any organization, start a new one, whatever. Sixth, don't be an ass. We're putting in our own time and usually our own money to help make this entire industry better. I don't care to be insulted for the privilege of taking away from my customers and my family. Seventh, I don't disagree with that you've said. I also think that the seatbelt laws are so much BS. But I've paid enough tickets for not wearing one that I have given in and wear mine now. In the mean time, one of these days I'm gonna run for Congress and I'll work to restore individual rights and responsibility. Till then I'll do the best I can to vote for people that respect my ability to lead my own life and my own choices. I'll also follow their dumb a$$ed rules so that I don't go broke paying tickets or end up in jail over it. Eighth, some of the things that you say people don't have to do, the lawyers constantly say that we do. Sorry, but I'm gonna put my weight on their interpretations of the rules than yours. Take care, Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: wispa [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 12:22 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] calea meeting with the fbi On Wed, 7 Mar 2007 10:35:29 -0800, Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote Hi All, We have a meeting set up for the 22nd in Va. I have 4 people set to go to it at this time but I'd like a 5th. I'm after a network admin type. Anyone have the time and recourses available? Or if I missed your offer earlier, please let me know. I have to get info to the FBI ASAP so if you can send a network admin to this meeting (and possibly join our calea standards committee) please let me know. WISPA member companies will have first crack at this, but I'll conceder others as well. While you're there... or, perhaps on your way there, please consider the fact that you and whoever is meeting there are deciding how every other WISP will structure his network and what they will be forced to spend or do. You will...or will not... set a standard, and then the FCC and FBI will...or will not...accept it, and everyone who has filed that they will be compliant
RE: [WISPA] calea meeting with the fbi
Great solution Marty. Really. Patrick -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marty Dougherty Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 2:01 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] calea meeting with the fbi ...How about we pass on the cost to our customers with a CALEA surcharge- Send a message out to the customers that we HAVE to charge you xx per month to support the govt efforts to wiretap the masses or to support the Govt efforts to keep us safe from perverts and terrorist... Marty __ Marty Dougherty CEO Roadstar Internet Inc This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(84). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] calea meeting with the fbi
On Wed, 7 Mar 2007 13:36:20 -0800, Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote Sigh. First, the mission statement for WISPA, just so's we're all on the same page about motivations: Wireless Internet Service Providers Association is dedicated to promoting and improving the WISP industry. Second, if you don't like it, join us in our efforts at the regulatory level. Sitting out there whining and tossing FUD around does nothing but waste our time and keep you from doing installations so that you can get more than $100 in the bank. With $100 in the bank, you know I can't. Third, WE don't REALLY know EXACTLY what WE have to do. That's part of what the FBI meeting is about. It's not about kowtowing to the FBI, DOJ, FCC etc. It's about making sure that WE can tell YOU what is going to keep your tit out of the ringer with those people. It's also about working with them to make sure that they don't expect things that are unreasonable or pass new regs that have no regard for the realities of our industry niche. I applaud your optimism. I don't share it, but at least you go hopeful that things work well, and that's a good thing, I think. Fourth, certainly I know I'm not speaking for all WISPs. I'm speaking for WISPA. YOU get to choose whether or not you wish to agree. You can always file a statement saying you don't agree and why. The FCC loves to hear from us. Last I knew the IEEE never asked for my opinion on a standard they put in place, but I use them all day every day anyhow. Of course. But.. sadly not the same. A LOT of WISPA members filed that they intended to use whatever standard was developed - that's what Twomey's filing stated. I have a terrible problem with putting on paper I'm going to do something when I have not a clue what that will be. Sixth, don't be an ass. We're putting in our own time and usually our own money to help make this entire industry better. I don't care to be insulted for the privilege of taking away from my customers and my family. I didn't write anything to you that I thought could be even be misconstrued as an insult to you. You know me well enough to know I don't do that. I just wanted you to understand just how some of us who CANNOT go react to these things, and if you find that relevant moment, to pass it on. Seventh, I don't disagree with that you've said. I also think that the seatbelt laws are so much BS. But I've paid enough tickets for not wearing one that I have given in and wear mine now. I always have worn mine. But I don't think it should be law. I think the law is wrong and intrusive. I didn't need the law to wear it, and the law didn't change a thing in my mind. In the mean time, one of these days I'm gonna run for Congress and I'll work to restore individual rights and responsibility. Till then I'll do the best I can to vote for people that respect my ability to lead my own life and my own choices. I'll also follow their dumb a$$ed rules so that I don't go broke paying tickets or end up in jail over it. And here's your chance to pass on just what people think directly to those who write this stuff... and doesn't even come from you personally, making it NOT personal. Eighth, some of the things that you say people don't have to do, the lawyers constantly say that we do. Sorry, but I'm gonna put my weight on their interpretations of the rules than yours. Let's not get sidetracked, Marlon. You have both an opportunity, and will bear the weight of the responsibility, of what happens, at least in some people's minds - be it good or bad. I'm realistic enough to know that what the future brings is not REALLY in your hands, but I do hope you have some influence. Not a lot of people will step up and take that on. If I didn't tell you what I thought, and give you the opportunity to represent that, SHOULD IT BE RELEVANT to your mission, then that's my fault. I said before, I don't have to lecture you, you've been where I am, you know it as well as the back of your hand. I wish you luck. For all our sakes. Mark Koskenmaki Neofast, Inc Broadband for the Walla Walla Valley and Blue Mountains 541-969-8200 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] calea meeting with the fbi
On Wed, 07 Mar 2007 21:44:56 +, Ron Wallace wrote I'm with you Marlon. I support your position. However, if I am all the support you have you better use a cane. Ron Wallace I dunno if you've met Marlon, but he's got pretty decent legs of his own... he'll be alright :) Mark Koskenmaki Neofast, Inc Broadband for the Walla Walla Valley and Blue Mountains 541-969-8200 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] calea meeting with the fbi
H, interesting idea! I believe there is something not too far from that on my phone bills already. marlon How about all of the other things you will have to do in order to operate your business- especially taxes and insurance. Did you put them into your business plan? If so, then wouldn't it just make sense to include this expense into your business plan as a must have? I don't think any govt agency is going to accept we cannot afford it in response to any govt regulations or requirements we face. Calea would be no different...right? How about we pass on the cost to our customers with a CALEA surcharge- Send a message out to the customers that we HAVE to charge you xx per month to support the govt efforts to wiretap the masses or to support the Govt efforts to keep us safe from perverts and terrorist.. (depending on your political point of view.. Marty __ Marty Dougherty CEO Roadstar Internet Inc [EMAIL PROTECTED] 703-623-4542 (Cell) 703-554-6620 (office) -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] calea meeting with the fbi
Fourth, certainly I know I'm not speaking for all WISPs. I'm speaking for WISPA. YOU get to choose whether or not you wish to agree. You can always file a statement saying you don't agree and why. The FCC loves to hear from us. Last I knew the IEEE never asked for my opinion on a standard they put in place, but I use them all day every day anyhow. Of course. But.. sadly not the same. A LOT of WISPA members filed that they intended to use whatever standard was developed - that's what Twomey's filing stated. I have a terrible problem with putting on paper I'm going to do something when I have not a clue what that will be. No one will be bound by that Mark. With the 445 we simply had to file where we're at in the process and what our overall plan is. If we do manage to come up with a standard and you don't like it, don't use it. If we don't come up with a standard, then you're no worse off than today. laters, marlon -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] calea meeting with the fbi
Thank you Marlon! I can now delete my saved response that I had composed earlier and was contemplating sending. Anyone can respond better than I as I seem to have trouble portraying what I am thinking in a really politically correct fashion. It is one of my biggest faults. (other than 12 others that come to mind real fast) Mac -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 3:36 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] calea meeting with the fbi Sigh. First, the mission statement for WISPA, just so's we're all on the same page about motivations: Wireless Internet Service Providers Association is dedicated to promoting and improving the WISP industry. Second, if you don't like it, join us in our efforts at the regulatory level. Sitting out there whining and tossing FUD around does nothing but waste our time and keep you from doing installations so that you can get more than $100 in the bank. Third, WE don't REALLY know EXACTLY what WE have to do. That's part of what the FBI meeting is about. It's not about kowtowing to the FBI, DOJ, FCC etc. It's about making sure that WE can tell YOU what is going to keep your tit out of the ringer with those people. It's also about working with them to make sure that they don't expect things that are unreasonable or pass new regs that have no regard for the realities of our industry niche. Fourth, certainly I know I'm not speaking for all WISPs. I'm speaking for WISPA. YOU get to choose whether or not you wish to agree. You can always file a statement saying you don't agree and why. The FCC loves to hear from us. Last I knew the IEEE never asked for my opinion on a standard they put in place, but I use them all day every day anyhow. Fifth, if we come up with a standard that you don't like, don't use it. Duh. There is no requirement, no way to make a requirement, nor should there be, for WISPA to force you to follow us. Feel free to follow any organization, start a new one, whatever. Sixth, don't be an ass. We're putting in our own time and usually our own money to help make this entire industry better. I don't care to be insulted for the privilege of taking away from my customers and my family. Seventh, I don't disagree with that you've said. I also think that the seatbelt laws are so much BS. But I've paid enough tickets for not wearing one that I have given in and wear mine now. In the mean time, one of these days I'm gonna run for Congress and I'll work to restore individual rights and responsibility. Till then I'll do the best I can to vote for people that respect my ability to lead my own life and my own choices. I'll also follow their dumb a$$ed rules so that I don't go broke paying tickets or end up in jail over it. Eighth, some of the things that you say people don't have to do, the lawyers constantly say that we do. Sorry, but I'm gonna put my weight on their interpretations of the rules than yours. Take care, Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: wispa [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 12:22 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] calea meeting with the fbi On Wed, 7 Mar 2007 10:35:29 -0800, Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote Hi All, We have a meeting set up for the 22nd in Va. I have 4 people set to go to it at this time but I'd like a 5th. I'm after a network admin type. Anyone have the time and recourses available? Or if I missed your offer earlier, please let me know. I have to get info to the FBI ASAP so if you can send a network admin to this meeting (and possibly join our calea standards committee) please let me know. WISPA member companies will have first crack at this, but I'll conceder others as well. While you're there... or, perhaps on your way there, please consider the fact that you and whoever is meeting there are deciding how every other WISP will structure his network and what they will be forced to spend or do. You will...or will not... set a standard, and then the FCC and FBI will...or will not...accept it, and everyone who has filed that they will be compliant persuant standards discussions will be obligated to do what is laid out in the end. You're a pretty bright guy, Marlon, and I suspect it won't take very long to see what direction this will head. You will be playing with the fates of a lot of people who did not choose this in ANY way. I haven't filed, because I cannot say I can or cannot comply. However, if this costs more than $100 to implement (that's all I have in the bank
RE: [WISPA] calea meeting with the fbi
Yeah but Mac, we shore do enjoy dat weeziana drawl. You have a special way with words that few can match, not even JohnnyO. :P Rick Harnish President OnlyInternet Broadband Wireless, Inc. 260-827-2482 Founding Member of WISPA-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mac Dearman Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 7:02 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] calea meeting with the fbi Thank you Marlon! I can now delete my saved response that I had composed earlier and was contemplating sending. Anyone can respond better than I as I seem to have trouble portraying what I am thinking in a really politically correct fashion. It is one of my biggest faults. (other than 12 others that come to mind real fast) Mac -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 3:36 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] calea meeting with the fbi Sigh. First, the mission statement for WISPA, just so's we're all on the same page about motivations: Wireless Internet Service Providers Association is dedicated to promoting and improving the WISP industry. Second, if you don't like it, join us in our efforts at the regulatory level. Sitting out there whining and tossing FUD around does nothing but waste our time and keep you from doing installations so that you can get more than $100 in the bank. Third, WE don't REALLY know EXACTLY what WE have to do. That's part of what the FBI meeting is about. It's not about kowtowing to the FBI, DOJ, FCC etc. It's about making sure that WE can tell YOU what is going to keep your tit out of the ringer with those people. It's also about working with them to make sure that they don't expect things that are unreasonable or pass new regs that have no regard for the realities of our industry niche. Fourth, certainly I know I'm not speaking for all WISPs. I'm speaking for WISPA. YOU get to choose whether or not you wish to agree. You can always file a statement saying you don't agree and why. The FCC loves to hear from us. Last I knew the IEEE never asked for my opinion on a standard they put in place, but I use them all day every day anyhow. Fifth, if we come up with a standard that you don't like, don't use it. Duh. There is no requirement, no way to make a requirement, nor should there be, for WISPA to force you to follow us. Feel free to follow any organization, start a new one, whatever. Sixth, don't be an ass. We're putting in our own time and usually our own money to help make this entire industry better. I don't care to be insulted for the privilege of taking away from my customers and my family. Seventh, I don't disagree with that you've said. I also think that the seatbelt laws are so much BS. But I've paid enough tickets for not wearing one that I have given in and wear mine now. In the mean time, one of these days I'm gonna run for Congress and I'll work to restore individual rights and responsibility. Till then I'll do the best I can to vote for people that respect my ability to lead my own life and my own choices. I'll also follow their dumb a$$ed rules so that I don't go broke paying tickets or end up in jail over it. Eighth, some of the things that you say people don't have to do, the lawyers constantly say that we do. Sorry, but I'm gonna put my weight on their interpretations of the rules than yours. Take care, Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: wispa [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 12:22 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] calea meeting with the fbi On Wed, 7 Mar 2007 10:35:29 -0800, Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote Hi All, We have a meeting set up for the 22nd in Va. I have 4 people set to go to it at this time but I'd like a 5th. I'm after a network admin type. Anyone have the time and recourses available? Or if I missed your offer earlier, please let me know. I have to get info to the FBI ASAP so if you can send a network admin to this meeting (and possibly join our calea standards committee) please let me know. WISPA member companies will have first crack at this, but I'll conceder others as well. While you're there... or, perhaps on your way there, please consider the fact that you and whoever is meeting there are deciding how every other WISP will structure his network and what they will be forced to spend or do. You will...or will not... set a standard, and then the FCC and FBI will...or will not...accept it, and everyone who has filed that they will be compliant
RE: [WISPA] calea meeting with the fbi
On Wed, 7 Mar 2007 21:18:11 -0500, Rick Harnish wrote Yeah but Mac, we shore do enjoy dat weeziana drawl. You have a special way with words that few can match, not even JohnnyO. :P what a kidder. Mac has never had a PC thought in his life, I'm sure :) Rick Harnish President OnlyInternet Broadband Wireless, Inc. 260-827-2482 Founding Member of WISPA-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mac Dearman Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 7:02 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] calea meeting with the fbi Thank you Marlon! I can now delete my saved response that I had composed earlier and was contemplating sending. Anyone can respond better than I as I seem to have trouble portraying what I am thinking in a really politically correct fashion. It is one of my biggest faults. (other than 12 others that come to mind real fast) Mac Mark Koskenmaki Neofast, Inc Broadband for the Walla Walla Valley and Blue Mountains 541-969-8200 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] calea meeting with the fbi
Folks, I do not want to rant or in anyway fan flames here, but I Do want to ask the question: What are the Big Kids doing about CALEA and the talk seeping out, about data monitoring / logging from DOJ? Earthlink, AOL (and it's clones), MSN, ATT? Are those guys on the sidelines just waiting for the shoe to drop, or busily building the mega-cache systems needed to transcribe every last packet passed over their networks? Somehow is seems unlikely. I don't see how, just because we are small and independent, we have anymore to fear about the implications of these seemingly invasive measures. If anything it would seem we have much less to fear, since the shear volume of data from traffic logging would render it almost useless. Frankly I don't (with my admittedly limited understanding of the true nature of IP traffic) understand what is to prevent these traffic loggers or other data traps to be inserted anywhere on the much-fewer backbone transports and be done with it. (In truth I highly doubt that this has not in fact already been done). At any rate EFF.org and others are our best allies in trying to tame this dragon before it bites. I too, have profound concerns about the right-to-privacy (as if any of us has had that for years). But the more important issue is the FACT that the COSTS of any and all monitoring MUST, in view of the 13th Amendment, be borne by the AGENCY that wants the information, NOT US. For those who have forgotten, the 13th Amendment abolished involuntary servitude. In short we CANNOT be compelled to work for Uncle Sam for FREE. We MAY by Court Order be compelled to provide access to execute a search for a specific duration. But we do not have to DO the search for them, provide them with the forensic tools to investigate, or in anyway become unduly financially inconvenienced, in the execution of the lawful activity. But Dave, (I hear you saying) they make the phone companies provide information, Local Usage Details and the like under subpoena from the court. Why can't the do that to us? Well in part they can, but remember that Telecos are those freaks of the business world: The Regulated Utility. When these Companies agreed to operate as Regulated Monopoly Utilities the gave up many rights and assumed special responsibilities that Normal Business don't have. The requirements to log usage details was long ago shown to be a normal part of the Telco Business flow, for their in-house billing and cross-billing purposes. The Courts asking to view selected sections of those logs for fact finding was viewed as duty the comes with the privilege to do business without competition. I'm no attorney, nor have I played one on Television, but I think I have a fairly firm grip on reality. (Why is there Air?) grin I think we should be looking hard at what our older-bigger cousins in the ISP industry are doing and be prepared to join in with them for injunctive relief - IF we are asked to SPEND anything preemptively to serve the cause of law enforcement. We are NOT Monopoly Tel-Co s. Law Enforcement Agencies are in-fact the ones with the guns and badges, not us. I didn't run for Sheriff, I was not elected to the office, I have taken no oath of office. I am therefore NOT a law enforcement officer, entitled to monetary compensation. I WILL IN NO WAY IMPED the work of Law Enforcement but I cannot LEGALLY be compelled to do it FOR them at my own expense. Please Notice I am NOT discussing the value or virtue of the law enforcement activities - That's politics, and has nothing to do with the LAW or it's execution. So what the heck is my point? I Honestly believe, IF some Policy is promulgated that costs US money or time (which IS WORTH money) to do THEIR work, it WILL be held unlawful on several grounds. I THINK that supporting EFF or others that share our concerns and raising these points to them may put this dragon in a cage. I feel certain that the BIG KIDs are thinking this way. I think we should too. That, and thirty nickels will buy you a cup of coffee. Dave Brenton General Manager Rural Tennessee Wireless Broadband Bringing FAST Internet to the rest of us (sm) Dover TN (931) 232-0914 office (931) 627-1142 cell [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] calea meeting with the fbi
On Wed, 7 Mar 2007 22:16:38 -0600, Dave Brenton wrote Folks, I do not want to rant or in anyway fan flames here, but I Do want to ask the question: What are the Big Kids doing about CALEA and the talk seeping out, about data monitoring / logging from DOJ? Earthlink, AOL (and it's clones), MSN, ATT? Well, let's see... AOL proxies almost all traffic now, so spying on customers is normal operations... But levity aside, would solutions that cost them even a million or two really impact their budget? No, but it would sure weed out some competition for them, wouldn't it? I've been looking for info on how these people have responded, and to be honest, I don't think they have, at least not publicly. I have read two op- ed bits in industry sites expressing how they should have, but appear to have simply gone along without objection. Did any of them get money from the fund for compliance? Especially, say, Qwest or ATT? Are those guys on the sidelines just waiting for the shoe to drop, or busily building the mega-cache systems needed to transcribe every last packet passed over their networks? Somehow is seems unlikely. AOL proxies darn near everything, as far as I can tell, so that's sort of a moot point, they really can cache any customer's data probably with almost no effort. I don't see how, just because we are small and independent, we have anymore to fear about the implications of these seemingly invasive measures. If anything it would seem we have much less to fear, since the shear volume of data from traffic logging would render it almost useless. hold on, we're required to intercept specific user's data. We're supposed to separate that data from the rest and supply it alone, not just everything in a big bucket and let them sort out the packets. Frankly I don't (with my admittedly limited understanding of the true nature of IP traffic) understand what is to prevent these traffic loggers or other data traps to be inserted anywhere on the much-fewer backbone transports and be done with it. Well, if you consider how interconnected many ISP's are, then you have to realize that one customer's data could be routed a whole host of directions at the same time, and a single or even mutiple backbone taps would not likely intercept it in a coordinated fashion. (In truth I highly doubt that this has not in fact already been done). At any rate EFF.org and others are our best allies in trying to tame this dragon before it bites. I too, have profound concerns about the right-to-privacy (as if any of us has had that for years). But the more important issue is the FACT that the COSTS of any and all monitoring MUST, in view of the 13th Amendment, be borne by the AGENCY that wants the information, NOT US. I believe the notion of forcing us to pay for what they want is called taking. You can find some scant discussion of that with Google, as it applies to ISP's and CALEA. For those who have forgotten, the 13th Amendment abolished involuntary servitude. In short we CANNOT be compelled to work for Uncle Sam for FREE. We MAY by Court Order be compelled to provide access to execute a search for a specific duration. But we do not have to DO the search for them, provide them with the forensic tools to investigate, or in anyway become unduly financially inconvenienced, in the execution of the lawful activity. Well, that's exactly what CALEA demands... Not of the telcos, who got paid to do this, nor of various other carriers, who were to be compensated for the costs. Only the VOIP providers, peer to peer chat voice, ISP's, etc, segments have suddenly been added to this and are ordered to provide it all at our own expense. But Dave, (I hear you saying) they make the phone companies provide information, Local Usage Details and the like under subpoena from the court. Why can't the do that to us? Well in part they can, but remember that Telecos are those freaks of the business world: The Regulated Utility. When these Companies agreed to operate as Regulated Monopoly Utilities the gave up many rights and assumed special responsibilities that Normal Business don't have. The requirements to log usage details was long ago shown to be a normal part of the Telco Business flow, for their in-house billing and cross-billing purposes. The Courts asking to view selected sections of those logs for fact finding was viewed as duty the comes with the privilege to do business without competition. CALEA established a fund of hundreds of millions, which was used to compensate the phone companies and so on for expenses related to building compliance into switching mechanisms, etc. So, no, not even they were required to fund these mandates by themselves. I'm no attorney,
