Re: RE:[WSG] Standards Compliance -vs- User Enjoyment
Title: RE:[WSG] Standards Compliance -vs- User Enjoyment I played around with flash - in a wk i made blue box move from one side to another :D!! - Original Message - From: Sean M. Hall AKA Dante To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2004 6:14 PM Subject: RE:[WSG] Standards Compliance -vs- User Enjoyment "Use to force [of Web Standards]" And if that doesn't work there's always good ol "eennie meenie miney mo" Standards-based sites can be flashy, personally I wouldn't mess around with that "Flash Satay" stuff - I'll take the embed tag, thank you very much (that is assuming I ever use Flash - I probably never will, I wasn't never good with animation).
RE[WSG] Standards Compliance -vs- User Enjoyment
Title: RE[WSG] Standards Compliance -vs- User Enjoyment The last part of my mail should've read "I was never good with animation"; sorry for the error (it's 11:30 PM here in San Francisco right now).
Re: RE:[WSG] Standards Compliance -vs- User Enjoyment
Title: RE:[WSG] Standards Compliance -vs- User Enjoyment Wooops the link in the other email is actually... http://www.taupowebdesigns.co.nz/ sorry :$ Camz www.t94xr.net.nz
Re: [WSG] Standards Compliance -vs- User Enjoyment
That was my originaly thought... I am still contemplating what to do. I really want to make it look appealing - and yet still compliant. Good point that the graphics are still all the same - regardless of the code. Something I may have forgotten. Well you have some very good points which I appreciate! Thanks very much! - Chris Stratford Kay Smoljak wrote: Chris Stratford [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: To knuckle down and get to the point - Do I use webstandards and efficent coding to make the website... Or do I use Flash, Verbose Table Layouts, Lots of Images Animations etc... To get people interested. Don't get suckered into the myth that standards based web sites can't look as good as old-school tag soup sites. That's what people who can't be bothered learning something new use as an argument. I maintain that the actual web sites you produce should not look any different just because you are using standards. Until someone views source (or tries a browser other than IE or uses a screen reader etc), no one should know what you've done. When I started getting our team to start coding to the standards, I didn't even mention it to the designers - I got the coders to change the way they were creating the sites. The graphic designers are still producing the same kinds of things that they did before. -- Kay Smoljak http://www.glyfx.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Standards Compliance -vs- User Enjoyment
Yes, thanks! I was going to have these areas: - Upcoming Events, - Forums, - Guestbook, [maybe a forum thread?] - Member Pages [free passes etc...], - Photo Album (if I get around to taking Pix) And a news reel with contact panel etc... t94xr.net.nz webmaster wrote: I would recommend you do both - have a standards compliant accessable site, but include an interactive area. A xhtml/css php/mysql"photobook" with the club at certian nights - preferably the peak holiday periods. Give them the best of both worlds. a quick loading site with an area where they can have alot more interactive with the site. A guestbook would be excellent aswell. runnnig off a db accessed both by the interactive area and the xhtml css area. Camz - Original Message - From: Chris Stratford To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2004 5:28 PM Subject: [WSG] Standards Compliance -vs- User Enjoyment Hey list, I have something which has been a major topic of discussion between a friend and I. I am currently working on a promotions website - promoting for Sydney Nightclubs (RB Scene) To knuckle down and get to the point - Do I use webstandards and efficent coding to make the website... Or do I use Flash, Verbose Table Layouts, Lots of Images Animations etc... To get people interested. Really it is a question of - do I make the website for viewer enjoyment, or for the widest viewer spectrum. I am not sure if many of you would be in the same situation, but I can imagine it has come up at least once with us all before. Whether its a news website, or a Hosting companies website... My situation is a very sticky one - Clubbers dont want web standards, they want to see - what they can't have - lots of pictures help, and sounds are good (ambient music, on/off switch of course). My website hasn't begun yet, although I have some rough ideas, one which my friend came up with: http://www.equicom.net/chris/test.html I think its great, doesnt use flash or anything. It was an eye opener thinking it was as simple as it was. It works in FireFox (exept sound) which is good... But the fact that it looks good with such a simply design. What are your opinions - and can you lend me any assistance. Web Standars are very important to me, and I would much rather use standards compliant code, than make 10 extra people per 100 happy because there is a boxed layout (like the demo website)... I could code that in CSS, but it wouldn't be as solid as it is with Tables. Anyway! Let me know what you all think! Cheers! Chris Stratford.
Re: [WSG] Standards Compliance -vs- User Enjoyment
I know what you mean about the "I'll take the embed tag" - I can relate there, so much effort for such a small validation. I would rather just not have my footer with: "STANDARDS COMPLIANT" on that one page... LoL... thanks for the input! cheers! Chris Stratford Sean M. Hall AKA Dante wrote: RE:[WSG] Standards Compliance -vs- User Enjoyment "Use to force [of Web Standards]" And if that doesn't work there's always good ol "eennie meenie miney mo" Standards-based sites can be flashy, personally I wouldn't mess around with that "Flash Satay" stuff - I'll take the embed tag, thank you very much (that is assuming I ever use Flash - I probably never will, I wasn't never good with animation).
Re: [WSG] Relative font sizes without relative dimension units
On Fri, 4 Jun 2004 19:50:54 -0400, Bill McAvinney wrote: What I'm looking for is a way to have a consistent em based measuring unit across all block elements in a site so that a width of say 10em will be the same no matter what the font size of the text in that block is. Unfortunately, this doesn't even make sense. If you want a consistently absolutely-sized block, then you'll need to use a fixed size font-size unit (errr...) such as px. em is a relative unit, so it doesn't make any sense to measure it other than relative to the current size. I don't think I've made any sense either, but it is Saturday :) Lea -- Lea de Groot Elysian Systems - I Understand the Internet http://elysiansystems.com/ Web Design, Usability, Information Architecture, Search Engine Optimisation Brisbane, Australia * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Centering a liquid grid of image thumbs and captions
At to whether a list of thumbs is truly tabular ... I think not. It will visually appear such but it's not a grid -- for which tables should be used, as a matrix. Tables have rows and columns at which cells intersect as combined related values; a contiguous list of thumbs and associated captions have no common properties other than being a picture and text and *will make sense in isolation*. But you're not going to like what I've discovered as a result of experimenting with tables ... The bloody things don't inherit relative (em- and percentage-based) font and line-size attributes in IE 5/5.1, which means more bloody CSS and/or markup to compensate for that cock-up. Don't you just love being a standards-compliant developer :o( So as I see it, it's a question of the lesser of two evils: wrap each image and associated caption in another container and bulk the markup or use semantically incorrect cells and bulk up the CSS to cope with IE's shortcomings. Funnily enough, the client previewed the near-finished site update yesterday and was delighted ... then asked if I could centre the thumbs ... I shall endeavour to persevere :o) There is always a resolution Mike Pepper Accessible Web Developer (with attitude) http://www.seowebsitepromotion.com http://www.gawds.org This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or body to whom they are addressed. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by Norton AntiVirus for the presence of computer viruses. If this message is received in error, please accept our apologies. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Standards Compliance -vs- User Enjoyment
Chris, look at it this way: they're all going to be tripping, anyway, so you're just doubling up on the psychedelic experience :o) Don't do it. Go standards. My stepson's heading a D B/Jungle unit so I've got to dip more than a toe into that environment very shortly. I didn't even consider using anything but standards-compliant accessiblemarkup when the build request arose. Yes, it is challenging to go standards when the glamour of Flash beckons but consider this: if you want to send SMS alerts to cell phones you're gonna use text. And when they hit the site they're gonna want quick access and not huge cell phone bills. Consider the practical commercial aspects of what you're looking to achieve. Give them what they really want: a list of what's on and where in the clubber scene in Sydney. Make it useful; make it functional. Then you can consider all the 'Wow, that's cool' bits with CSS rollovers, etc. (Incidentally, well written Flash does not mean inaccessible; it's just another tool.) Mike Pepper Accessible Web Developer (on a roll) www.seowebsitepromotion.com www.gawds.org
Re: [WSG] Centering a liquid grid of image thumbs and captions
yes use tables, but use them wiely, use them as they were intended for ( tabular data ) I hope you're not suggesting going back to nested tables are you? For me CSS holds to many advantages; and i feel it is just the future ( for me ne ways )to effectivley render beautiful sematic webpages. -peace From: RC Pierce [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] Centering a liquid grid of image thumbs and captions Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 03:26:17 -0600 They haven't deprecated the table tag, yet, have they? Maybe I'm just a beginner, but I can easily follow the difficulty folks are having with 'pure css.' It was fun for me until I saw that a hackless site was a near impossibility, even if it's just the 3-pixel jog hack (which doesn't work for lists). think the jury is going to be out for a long time on this one. There really is no 'hack free' way to deal with css and cross browser support. Sure there have been plenty of 'elegant' uses of tableless markup, but when it takes a simple process and turns it into a morass of problems and surprises, it really does cross the line. Until the 'table police' show up and put on the cuffs, the best thing is do what is expedient, and what is effective and dependable. Whether for layout or tabular data, the use of tables, and their predictable results should not be discounted or frowned upon--especially if the table makes sense when linearized. What you are trying to do 'fits the bill' for a legitimate table. Until CSS reaches the point where proper centering, width and height is possible across all browsers and all platforms without hacks and kludges, hybrid designs should be expected, and not discouraged. As long as tables are still a part of html, I say use them. Roy - Original Message - From: Rick Faaberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 04, 2004 10:30 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Centering a liquid grid of image thumbs and captions On 6/4/04 9:10 PM Nick Gleitzman [EMAIL PROTECTED] sent this out: A parting thought: does a series of thumbnail/caption pairs actually qualify as tabular data - thus leaving me feeling better about giving up and using a table to lay the bloody thing out anyway? That was my first thought when I began to read about your angst. It's tabular data - deal with that way. Get it over with. I'm no authority. Rick Faaberg * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * _ Open an Online Savings Account today collect a bonus $30*! http://clk.atdmt.com/1DG/go/hsb005000991dg/direct/01/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Standards Compliance -vs- User Enjoyment
Horses for courses - you build what will attract your client's audience - if the client requires a site for a niche audience with it's own characteristics (as long as these are known not just assumed) then a lot of the usual cliches about not losing part of the potential audience MAY not apply. There must be some people out there who actually like sitting through flash animations - just like the movie companies must have done audience research that proves that most of us like sitting through endless clever animated sequences that eventually get you to the menu screen on a DVD. When I started working on websites the woman who took me on said just remember that there are millions of idiots out there who will burn up their phone bill and sit for ages waiting to see a fake image of Gillian Anderson's privates slowly reveal itself on screen but they're unlikely to be still waiting on your ever-so-neat price list and order form for home delivered pizza to materialise. As basic advice it's worked for me Jeff 06:28 05/06/2004, you wrote: Hey list, I have something which has been a major topic of discussion between a friend and I. I am currently working on a promotions website - promoting for Sydney Nightclubs (RB Scene) To knuckle down and get to the point - Do I use webstandards and efficent coding to make the website... Or do I use Flash, Verbose Table Layouts, Lots of Images Animations etc... To get people interested. Really it is a question of - do I make the website for viewer enjoyment, or for the widest viewer spectrum. I am not sure if many of you would be in the same situation, but I can imagine it has come up at least once with us all before. Whether its a news website, or a Hosting companies website... My situation is a very sticky one - Clubbers dont want web standards, they want to see - what they can't have - lots of pictures help, and sounds are good (ambient music, on/off switch of course). My website hasn't begun yet, although I have some rough ideas, one which my friend came up with: http://www.equicom.net/chris/test.htmlhttp://www.equicom.net/chris/test.html I think its great, doesnt use flash or anything. It was an eye opener thinking it was as simple as it was. It works in FireFox (exept sound) which is good... But the fact that it looks good with such a simply design. What are your opinions - and can you lend me any assistance. Web Standars are very important to me, and I would much rather use standards compliant code, than make 10 extra people per 100 happy because there is a boxed layout (like the demo website)... I could code that in CSS, but it wouldn't be as solid as it is with Tables. Anyway! Let me know what you all think! Cheers! Chris Stratford. web-arts: the art craft of web design http://www.web-arts.biz * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Standards Compliance -vs- User Enjoyment
Horses for courses - you build what will attract your client's audience - if the client requires a site for a niche audience with it's own characteristics (as long as these are known not just assumed) then a lot of the usual cliches about not losing part of the potential audience MAY not apply. There must be some people out there who actually like sitting through flash animations - just like the movie companies must have done audience research that proves that most of us like sitting through endless clever animated sequences that eventually get you to the menu screen on a DVD. When I started working on websites the woman who took me on said just remember that there are millions of idiots out there who will burn up their phone bill and sit for ages waiting to see a fake image of Gillian Anderson's privates slowly reveal itself on screen but they're unlikely to be still waiting on your ever-so-neat price list and order form for home delivered pizza to materialise. As basic advice it's worked for me Jeff 06:28 05/06/2004, you wrote: Hey list, I have something which has been a major topic of discussion between a friend and I. I am currently working on a promotions website - promoting for Sydney Nightclubs (RB Scene) To knuckle down and get to the point - Do I use webstandards and efficent coding to make the website... Or do I use Flash, Verbose Table Layouts, Lots of Images Animations etc... To get people interested. Really it is a question of - do I make the website for viewer enjoyment, or for the widest viewer spectrum. I am not sure if many of you would be in the same situation, but I can imagine it has come up at least once with us all before. Whether its a news website, or a Hosting companies website... My situation is a very sticky one - Clubbers dont want web standards, they want to see - what they can't have - lots of pictures help, and sounds are good (ambient music, on/off switch of course). My website hasn't begun yet, although I have some rough ideas, one which my friend came up with: http://www.equicom.net/chris/test.htmlhttp://www.equicom.net/chris/test.html I think its great, doesnt use flash or anything. It was an eye opener thinking it was as simple as it was. It works in FireFox (exept sound) which is good... But the fact that it looks good with such a simply design. What are your opinions - and can you lend me any assistance. Web Standars are very important to me, and I would much rather use standards compliant code, than make 10 extra people per 100 happy because there is a boxed layout (like the demo website)... I could code that in CSS, but it wouldn't be as solid as it is with Tables. Anyway! Let me know what you all think! Cheers! Chris Stratford. web-arts: the art craft of web design http://www.web-arts.biz * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Centering a liquid grid of image thumbs and captions
It's not tabular data, it's a linear stream of images with captions. One way of looking at it is to take the thumbs and associated text and jumble the sequence; do that with a proper table grid and you'll have a mess since the row and columnar formats will be meaningless. For instance -- Mon Tue Wed Thu Fri Sat Sun Cost 10 20 20 10 20 20 20 Unit 3 5 2 6 4 1 7 Cost/Sat = 20. It's position must remain fixed to make sense, although it may possibly remain true in another location. Incorporate the Unit value of the matrix and moving anything invalidates the results. This is a table; rows and columns point to specific cells; rows and columns have meaning. Move the cell values within the grid and the results are nonsense. Not so with a sequence of images (unless, of course, you're ordering them alphabetically but that's not the issue). Make sense? Mike Pepper Accessible Web Developer (after a great night's sleep) www.seowebsitepromotion.com www.gawds.org -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Rick Faaberg Sent: 05 June 2004 05:30 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] Centering a liquid grid of image thumbs and captions On 6/4/04 9:10 PM Nick Gleitzman [EMAIL PROTECTED] sent this out: A parting thought: does a series of thumbnail/caption pairs actually qualify as tabular data - thus leaving me feeling better about giving up and using a table to lay the bloody thing out anyway? That was my first thought when I began to read about your angst. It's tabular data - deal with that way. Get it over with. I'm no authority. Rick Faaberg * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Centering a liquid grid of image thumbs and captions
On 6/5/04 3:47 AM Mike Pepper [EMAIL PROTECTED] sent this out: Not so with a sequence of images (unless, of course, you're ordering them alphabetically but that's not the issue). Couldn't Cost and Monday have a value which is an image along with a caption? :-) Rick Faaberg * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
[WSG] Safari and Opera
Now i dont know if any one else has tried this ; but im trying to hide input borders which is working in Mozilla,IE ( all version/platfroms) but after doing a few browser cams, i notice that safari still place borders around the input's ,the same problem ( with even) the latest version of Opera for windows. Has anyone got a way of doing it? -Steven _ FOXTEL Digital - Your ticket to cinema at home: http://ad.au.doubleclick.net/clk;7718915;9123289;x?http://www.foxtel.com.au/Campaign/channelchoice.html * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Centering a liquid grid of image thumbs and captions
i wasnt talking to you ;) From: Mike Pepper [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WSG [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [WSG] Centering a liquid grid of image thumbs and captions Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 11:47:12 +0100 It's not tabular data, it's a linear stream of images with captions. One way of looking at it is to take the thumbs and associated text and jumble the sequence; do that with a proper table grid and you'll have a mess since the row and columnar formats will be meaningless. For instance -- Mon Tue Wed Thu Fri Sat Sun Cost 10 20 20 10 20 20 20 Unit 3 5 2 6 4 1 7 Cost/Sat = 20. It's position must remain fixed to make sense, although it may possibly remain true in another location. Incorporate the Unit value of the matrix and moving anything invalidates the results. This is a table; rows and columns point to specific cells; rows and columns have meaning. Move the cell values within the grid and the results are nonsense. Not so with a sequence of images (unless, of course, you're ordering them alphabetically but that's not the issue). Make sense? Mike Pepper Accessible Web Developer (after a great night's sleep) www.seowebsitepromotion.com www.gawds.org -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Rick Faaberg Sent: 05 June 2004 05:30 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] Centering a liquid grid of image thumbs and captions On 6/4/04 9:10 PM Nick Gleitzman [EMAIL PROTECTED] sent this out: A parting thought: does a series of thumbnail/caption pairs actually qualify as tabular data - thus leaving me feeling better about giving up and using a table to lay the bloody thing out anyway? That was my first thought when I began to read about your angst. It's tabular data - deal with that way. Get it over with. I'm no authority. Rick Faaberg * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * _ Smart Saving with ING Direct earn 5.25% p.a. variable rate: http://ad.au.doubleclick.net/clk;7249209;8842331;n?http://www.ingdirect.com.au/burst6offer.asp?id=8 * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Standards Compliance -vs- User Enjoyment
I think can beat that! I played around with flash and and then Peter and I were threatened with defamation in the Supreme Court of Queensland: http://news.awn.com/index.php?newsitem_no=4149 But that was before we became responsible listparents :) Russ I played around with flash - in a wk i made blue box move from one side to another :D!! * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Relative font sizes without relative dimension units
so it doesn't make any sense to measure it other than relative to the current size actually, it does make a lot of sense, as the original poster wants the whole measurements to be relative, but all based on a unified measure, not the current size of the current element. P winmail.dat
RE: [WSG] Centering a liquid grid of image thumbs and captions
My hovercraft is full of eels ;o) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of 7 sinz Sent: 05 June 2004 12:07 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [WSG] Centering a liquid grid of image thumbs and captions i wasnt talking to you ;) From: Mike Pepper [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WSG [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [WSG] Centering a liquid grid of image thumbs and captions Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 11:47:12 +0100 It's not tabular data, it's a linear stream of images with captions. One way of looking at it is to take the thumbs and associated text and jumble the sequence; do that with a proper table grid and you'll have a mess since the row and columnar formats will be meaningless. For instance -- Mon Tue Wed Thu Fri Sat Sun Cost 10 20 20 10 20 20 20 Unit 3 5 2 6 4 1 7 Cost/Sat = 20. It's position must remain fixed to make sense, although it may possibly remain true in another location. Incorporate the Unit value of the matrix and moving anything invalidates the results. This is a table; rows and columns point to specific cells; rows and columns have meaning. Move the cell values within the grid and the results are nonsense. Not so with a sequence of images (unless, of course, you're ordering them alphabetically but that's not the issue). Make sense? Mike Pepper Accessible Web Developer (after a great night's sleep) www.seowebsitepromotion.com www.gawds.org -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Rick Faaberg Sent: 05 June 2004 05:30 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] Centering a liquid grid of image thumbs and captions On 6/4/04 9:10 PM Nick Gleitzman [EMAIL PROTECTED] sent this out: A parting thought: does a series of thumbnail/caption pairs actually qualify as tabular data - thus leaving me feeling better about giving up and using a table to lay the bloody thing out anyway? That was my first thought when I began to read about your angst. It's tabular data - deal with that way. Get it over with. I'm no authority. Rick Faaberg * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * _ Smart Saving with ING Direct earn 5.25% p.a. variable rate: http://ad.au.doubleclick.net/clk;7249209;8842331;n?http://www.ingdirect.com. au/burst6offer.asp?id=8 * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Safari and Opera
On 5 jun 2004, at 12.56, 7 sinz wrote: Now i dont know if any one else has tried this ; but im trying to hide input borders which is working in Mozilla,IE ( all version/platfroms) but after doing a few browser cams, i notice that safari still place borders around the input's ,the same problem ( with even) the latest version of Opera for windows. Has anyone got a way of doing it? No. Styling form elements the same across platforms and browsers is not possible, since several browsers use the operating system's native widgets, and ignore most attempts at styling them. /Roger -- http://www.456bereastreet.com/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
[WSG] Site breaking in Mozilla
I have been reading the posts from this discussion list for a few months trying to decide if I should abandon my table based layout. I finally decided to give it a try and am doing okay...I think. My test page validates for XHTML and CSS, and it looks fine in IE6. Unfortunately, it is breaking apart badly in Mozilla 1.6. It seems that whenever I try to fix a problem in Mozilla, then IE breaks. I would greatly appreciate any suggestions that y'all may have. The files are located at: http://www.texasdha.org/temp/index.htm http://www.texasdha.org/temp/styles1.css Aside from Mozilla breaking, I am also curious to know if I have handled the #texas div correctly. I had a tough time getting it where I wanted it - until I published it to a server and found that it magically corrected itself??? I am curious why a locally displayed version would look different. Thanks, Ward -- This e-mail message and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which they are addressed. If you are not the intended recipient or an authorized representative of the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any review, dissemination, or copying of this message and its attachments or the information contained herein is prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender by return e-mail and delete this e-mail message from your computer. Thank you. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Site breaking in Mozilla
On Sat, 5 Jun 2004 08:25:08 -0500, Ward Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: it looks fine in IE6. Unfortunately, it is breaking apart badly in Mozilla 1.6. You might want to check out opera firefox (on windows) too (both broken) * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Centering a liquid grid of image thumbs and captions
I hope you're not suggesting going back to nested tables are you? Not on your life. Tableless, free-flowing, css driven layout is really the ticket, to be sure. I much prefer the ease with which a page can be constructed and styled later. Add to this that once a working template is created, one never has to consider presentation again. Adding new content to a site is so much easier when all one needs to do is insert it into a 'proven' construct. Not to mention, restyling a site doesn't involve 're-tooling' it. This could never be done using tables. Bert's thumbnail layout is really quite straight forward. Wish I'd o' thought of using inline paragraphs as containers when I was having trouble with a thumbnail page, myself. The problem of attaching caption to image, getting it to center with the thumbnail is completely overcome using that simple technique. Beats .td.img.br /.acaption./a./td (ignore dots) all to heck when it comes to elasticity and fluidity. Nice one, Bert. On the other hand, if a page is not elastic (shudder) then a table works just fine, at least this one does, anyway. It is still very linear. Now this brings up the question: Is there a 'standard' way for linearizing tables? Does one move across, then down row by row, or down then across column by column? Roy - Original Message - From: 7 sinz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2004 3:56 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] Centering a liquid grid of image thumbs and captions yes use tables, but use them wiely, use them as they were intended for ( tabular data ) I hope you're not suggesting going back to nested tables are you? For me CSS holds to many advantages; and i feel it is just the future ( for me ne ways )to effectivley render beautiful sematic webpages. -peace From: RC Pierce [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] Centering a liquid grid of image thumbs and captions Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 03:26:17 -0600 They haven't deprecated the table tag, yet, have they? Maybe I'm just a beginner, but I can easily follow the difficulty folks are having with 'pure css.' It was fun for me until I saw that a hackless site was a near impossibility, even if it's just the 3-pixel jog hack (which doesn't work for lists). think the jury is going to be out for a long time on this one. There really is no 'hack free' way to deal with css and cross browser support. Sure there have been plenty of 'elegant' uses of tableless markup, but when it takes a simple process and turns it into a morass of problems and surprises, it really does cross the line. Until the 'table police' show up and put on the cuffs, the best thing is do what is expedient, and what is effective and dependable. Whether for layout or tabular data, the use of tables, and their predictable results should not be discounted or frowned upon--especially if the table makes sense when linearized. What you are trying to do 'fits the bill' for a legitimate table. Until CSS reaches the point where proper centering, width and height is possible across all browsers and all platforms without hacks and kludges, hybrid designs should be expected, and not discouraged. As long as tables are still a part of html, I say use them. Roy - Original Message - From: Rick Faaberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 04, 2004 10:30 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Centering a liquid grid of image thumbs and captions On 6/4/04 9:10 PM Nick Gleitzman [EMAIL PROTECTED] sent this out: A parting thought: does a series of thumbnail/caption pairs actually qualify as tabular data - thus leaving me feeling better about giving up and using a table to lay the bloody thing out anyway? That was my first thought when I began to read about your angst. It's tabular data - deal with that way. Get it over with. I'm no authority. Rick Faaberg * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * _ Open an Online Savings Account today collect a bonus $30*! http://clk.atdmt.com/1DG/go/hsb005000991dg/direct/01/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for
Re: [WSG] Centering a liquid grid of image thumbs and captions
Nick Gleitzman wrote: I've been trying to emulate, with CSS alone, what I've been doing for years with tables: create a grid of thumbnails, each with a caption below, both image and caption linked to an enlargement. We all know how easy that is; center the table, center the cell content vertically, add some cell padding. Bingo. Any takers? [snip] Do you mean something like this? http://kristof.f2o.org/test/image_thumbs_and_captions/ -- Kristof * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
[WSG] Linearizing Tables - Is there a standard?
Is there a 'standard' way for linearizing tables? Does one move across, then down row by row, or down then across column by column? (Okay, I know this was asked in another thread, but noone bit, so I'm posting it as a new topic.) Roy * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Linearizing Tables - Is there a standard?
Standard western order: left to right, top to bottom. In case of nested tables, the browser recursively does this for the content of cells containing tables as well. You could use a text browser such as Lynx or BrailleSurf to test linearisation. Patrick Patrick H. Lauke Webmaster / University of Salford http://www.salford.ac.uk winmail.dat
Re: [WSG] Linearizing Tables - Is there a standard?
Hi Roy, Think of each cell as a div tag. We use XSLT to make tables linear within XStandard. Here is the link to download the XSLT: http://xstandard.com/download/screenreader.xsl Regards, -Vlad XStandard Development Team http://xstandard.com - Original Message - From: RC Pierce [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2004 7:26 PM Subject: [WSG] Linearizing Tables - Is there a standard? Is there a 'standard' way for linearizing tables? Does one move across, then down row by row, or down then across column by column? (Okay, I know this was asked in another thread, but noone bit, so I'm posting it as a new topic.) Roy * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Site breaking in Mozilla
Ward Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: It seems that whenever I try to fix a problem in Mozilla, then IE breaks. There's a very good reason for that... Because you are using the xml prolog, IE is being forced into quirks mode rendering, not standards compliance mode - that is, you're making IE6 behave like IE5, with all of the buggy rendering. A good explanation of that is at: http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=RenderingMode If there is *anything* at all, even a comment, before the doctype declaration, IE6 will go into quirks mode. In actual fact, Mozilla is behaving correctly. I'm betting that if you remove the xml prolog, IE will start breaking too. The reason why it's breaking is that you're setting the width of your breadcrumbs div to be 600px, and then setting the padding to 3px, which gets added to the declared width (making the div 606px wide, which is 4 pixels too many for the 602px container). IE6 in quirks mode (and IE5) calculate the css box model incorrectly by *including* padding and borders in the declared width. Other browsers (and IE6 in standards rendering mode) *add* padding and borders to the declared width. More info here: http://www.positioniseverything.net/articles/box-model.html Actually, I would probably simplify your layout a little and attack the problem a different way, perhaps by removing the explicit widths on some of the elements and applying the right hand blue stripe to a container element. Your nav, top and texas divs are a little unnecessary as they only contain one element each - rather than having the #nav div with an unordered list, try losing the div and apply the id directly to the ul. I'm a little hungover right now, and the box model/quirks mode explanation above has used up most of my brain glucose so please excuse my lack of a better suggestion. Fix up the rendering mode issue and you'll be on the right track. I hope this makes sense! K. -- Kay Smoljak http://developer.perthweb.com.au * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Site breaking in Mozilla
Ward Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: It seems that whenever I try to fix a problem in Mozilla, then IE breaks. There's a very good reason for that... Because you are using the xml prolog, IE is being forced into quirks mode rendering, not standards compliance mode - that is, you're making IE6 behave like IE5, with all of the buggy rendering. A good explanation of that is at: http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=RenderingMode If there is *anything* at all, even a comment, before the doctype declaration, IE6 will go into quirks mode. In actual fact, Mozilla is behaving correctly. I'm betting that if you remove the xml prolog, IE will start breaking too. The reason why it's breaking is that you're setting the width of your breadcrumbs div to be 600px, and then setting the padding to 3px, which gets added to the declared width (making the div 606px wide, which is 4 pixels too many for the 602px container). IE6 in quirks mode (and IE5) calculate the css box model incorrectly by *including* padding and borders in the declared width. Other browsers (and IE6 in standards rendering mode) *add* padding and borders to the declared width. More info here: http://www.positioniseverything.net/articles/box-model.html Actually, I would probably simplify your layout a little and attack the problem a different way, perhaps by removing the explicit widths on some of the elements and applying the right hand blue stripe to a container element. Your nav, top and texas divs are a little unnecessary as they only contain one element each - rather than having the #nav div with an unordered list, try losing the div and apply the id directly to the ul. I'm a little hungover right now, and the box model/quirks mode explanation above has used up most of my brain glucose so please excuse my lack of a better suggestion. Fix up the rendering mode issue and you'll be on the right track. I hope this makes sense! K. -- Kay Smoljak http://developer.perthweb.com.au * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Site breaking in Mozilla
Hi Ward Most of your problems are coming from the standard box model problems associated with IE. I see that you're using the !--[if IE 5] !--[if IE 6] tags, I would probably keep doing this, but instead of having 1 or 2 definitions within the actual page, add another external stylesheet e.g. !--[if IE 5] style @import url(ie5.css); /* include in this one all the styling for IE5 */ /style ![endif]-- style Then you'll be able to style everything that the IE box-model problem stuffs up. There is a good explanation of how the box model (margin, padding, border etc...) works here: http://www.hicksdesign.co.uk/journal/2004/05/3d_css_box_model/index.php And here: http://www.redmelon.net/tstme/box_model/ And this is a good one to show the differences between IE and standards based browsers. http://tantek.com/CSS/Examples/boxmodelhack.html Cheers Jeff Lowder Accessibility 1st Website: www.accessibility1st.com.au Blog: www.accessibility1st.com.au/journal/ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ward Scott Sent: Saturday, 5 June 2004 11:25 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WSG] Site breaking in Mozilla I have been reading the posts from this discussion list for a few months trying to decide if I should abandon my table based layout. I finally decided to give it a try and am doing okay...I think. My test page validates for XHTML and CSS, and it looks fine in IE6. Unfortunately, it is breaking apart badly in Mozilla 1.6. It seems that whenever I try to fix a problem in Mozilla, then IE breaks. I would greatly appreciate any suggestions that y'all may have. The files are located at: http://www.texasdha.org/temp/index.htm http://www.texasdha.org/temp/styles1.css Aside from Mozilla breaking, I am also curious to know if I have handled the #texas div correctly. I had a tough time getting it where I wanted it - until I published it to a server and found that it magically corrected itself??? I am curious why a locally displayed version would look different. Thanks, Ward -- This e-mail message and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which they are addressed. If you are not the intended recipient or an authorized representative of the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any review, dissemination, or copying of this message and its attachments or the information contained herein is prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender by return e-mail and delete this e-mail message from your computer. Thank you. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Standards Compliance -vs- User Enjoyment
Russ Weakley - Maxdesign [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: I played around with flash and and then Peter and I were threatened with defamation in the Supreme Court of Queensland: http://news.awn.com/index.php?newsitem_no=4149 Is the site no longer up? -- Kay Smoljak http://www.newlookhair.com.au * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Standards Compliance -vs- User Enjoyment
I can view it in Firefox 0.8 , heres the text for ppl who cant access it for some reason http://news.awn.com/index.php?newsitem_no=4149 Australian Government Sets Out To Ban Political Web Game January 23, 2001 Government officials in Australia are threatening a lawsuit against WebWank.net for posting a political satire Web game, which pokes fun at the country's treatment of its aboriginal people. Aboriginal Affairs Minister John Herron feels that the use of his likeness in the game, JOHN HERRON'S STOLEN CHILDREN GAME, is a defamation of character. In the game, players must capture all ten of John Herron's children then place them in non-white families. The game is a satire of an early 20th century Australian policy, which removed aboriginal children from their families and placed them in white homes. Current Australian Prime Minister, John Howard, has also come under heat of late for refusing to apologize for the policy, which displaced thousands of children known as the Stolen Generation. The STOLEN CHILDREN creators, Russ Weakley and Peter Firminger, e-mailed Herron about what he thought of the game. Herron responded in a written letter saying, This is formally to let you know that I am instituting proceedings against you for defamation in the Supreme Court of Queensland. The Federal Police will be involved to track this Website if I do not receive a response within 24 hours. Weakley and Firminger removed the game on Thursday, January 18, however it was back up on Monday, January 22. The creators wrote on the site, This game is political satire. It was intended to be a comic depiction of the Howard government's policy and John Herron's stance towards the 'Stolen Generation.' We do not, in any way, intend to offend or threaten John Herron's real children. Electronic Frontier Australia board member Dale Clapperton said, In a free society, it is completely unacceptable for politicians to use threats of legal action to silence their critics. Senator Herron has completely overreacted to a humorous parody of his handling of the 'Stolen Generation' issue. Furthermore, threatening to use the Federal Police to track down the authors of this site constitutes a gross abuse of his power as an elected official. WebWank features two other political games, which have enflamed officials. THE CRUCIFIXION GAME challenges players to nail WebWank creators to a cross and THE JOHN HOWARD SHOOTING GALLERY has gamers fling tampons at the Prime Minister a poke at the Australian government's unpopular tax on feminine hygiene products. -- Neerav Bhatt http://www.bhatt.id.au Web Development IT consultancy Mobile: +61 403 8000 27 Kay Smoljak wrote: Russ Weakley - Maxdesign [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: I played around with flash and and then Peter and I were threatened with defamation in the Supreme Court of Queensland: http://news.awn.com/index.php?newsitem_no=4149 Is the site no longer up? -- Kay Smoljak http://www.newlookhair.com.au * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Standards Compliance -vs- User Enjoyment
Hi Kay, http://news.awn.com/index.php?newsitem_no=4149 Is the site no longer up? I can see it, and had a good giggle :-) -- Yours, Kym * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Standards Compliance -vs- User Enjoyment
Neerav [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: I can view it in Firefox 0.8 , heres the text for ppl who cant access it for some reason http://news.awn.com/index.php?newsitem_no=4149 Sorry, I meant the site the article talks about - webwank.net - I want to throw tampons at John Howard! -- Kay Smoljak http://kay.smoljak.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Standards Compliance -vs- User Enjoyment - OT
Apologies to all - I seem to have done some thread hijacking of my own! That off-topic post was made in a flippant mood on Saturday night. The site in question was taken down a year or two ago, so the games cannot be seen. However, the front page is still available on the wayback machine (may offend some viewers): http://web.archive.org/web/20020925212239/webwank.net/ In those days we were into political activism and fighting for the rights of Indigenous Australians. Now we are standards evangelists fighting for CSS and standards against repressive regimes (such as IE6). :) Back to discussions on web standards... Russ Sorry, I meant the site the article talks about - webwank.net - I want to throw tampons at John Howard! * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Site breaking in Mozilla
Kay, Many thanks for the thoughtful feedback. I knew I was missing something, but wasn't sure what. And thanks also for the advice on the divs. Ward Original Message - There's a very good reason for that... Because you are using the xml prolog, IE is being forced into quirks mode rendering, not standards compliance mode - that is, you're making IE6 behave like IE5, with all of the buggy rendering. A good explanation of that is at: http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=RenderingMode If there is *anything* at all, even a comment, before the doctype declaration, IE6 will go into quirks mode. In actual fact, Mozilla is behaving correctly. I'm betting that if you remove the xml prolog, IE will start breaking too. The reason why it's breaking is that you're setting the width of your breadcrumbs div to be 600px, and then setting the padding to 3px, which gets added to the declared width (making the div 606px wide, which is 4 pixels too many for the 602px container). IE6 in quirks mode (and IE5) calculate the css box model incorrectly by *including* padding and borders in the declared width. Other browsers (and IE6 in standards rendering mode) *add* padding and borders to the declared width. More info here: http://www.positioniseverything.net/articles/box-model.html Actually, I would probably simplify your layout a little and attack the problem a different way, perhaps by removing the explicit widths on some of the elements and applying the right hand blue stripe to a container element. Your nav, top and texas divs are a little unnecessary as they only contain one element each - rather than having the #nav div with an unordered list, try losing the div and apply the id directly to the ul. I'm a little hungover right now, and the box model/quirks mode explanation above has used up most of my brain glucose so please excuse my lack of a better suggestion. Fix up the rendering mode issue and you'll be on the right track. I hope this makes sense! K. -- Kay Smoljak http://developer.perthweb.com.au * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Centering a liquid grid of image thumbs and captions
I'm with Mike - that's brilliant. It'll certainly fix my immediate
needs. Thanks, Kristof!
One question: what's this hack for?
* html #images a {
height: 100px;
he\ight: 95px;
}
OK, I lied. Second question: your solution is very usable; I class this
as 'elegant' because all the img/caption pairs are contained in one
(open-ended) list. Just what I was after. But just out of interest, do
you think it's possible to go one step further, and style the list so
that the number of images in a row varies as window is resized - still
keeping the 'grid' centred - for a truly liquid layout?
Nick
___
Omnivision. Websight.
http://www.omnivision.com.au/
On Sunday, June 6, 2004, at 04:02 AM, Kristof Neirynck wrote:
Nick Gleitzman wrote:
I've been trying to emulate, with CSS alone, what I've been doing for
years with tables: create a grid of thumbnails, each with a caption
below, both image and caption linked to an enlargement. We all know
how easy that is; center the table, center the cell content
vertically, add some cell padding. Bingo.
Any takers?
[snip]
Do you mean something like this?
http://kristof.f2o.org/test/image_thumbs_and_captions/
--
Kristof
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
*
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
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*
Re: [WSG] Centering a liquid grid of image thumbs and captions
Roy - ummm, did I miss a post? Can you point me to 'Bert's layout'? Thanks Nick ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ On Sunday, June 6, 2004, at 01:59 AM, RC Pierce wrote: Bert's thumbnail layout is really quite straight forward. Wish I'd o' thought of using inline paragraphs as containers when I was having trouble with a thumbnail page, myself. The problem of attaching caption to image, getting it to center with the thumbnail is completely overcome using that simple technique. Beats .td.img.br /.acaption./a./td (ignore dots) all to heck when it comes to elasticity and fluidity. Nice one, Bert. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
[WSG] Vertical Son of Suckerfish - Practical implementation
Vertical Son of Suckerfish - Practical implementation at http://www.rci.com.au What a difference it makes! Implementing Son of Suckerfish cut 30kb off the page size by removing the old DHTML menu, and reduced page load and render times dramatically I did have to sacrifice NS4 and IE4 compatibility which the old DHTML menu had, but there is a fully functional site map and once I add the @import hack to hide the menu from old browsers they wont see the Son of Suckerfish menu at all :-) Net result: * 95%+ visitors to the site get improved usability and speed * search engines can follow links in Son of Suckerfish menu as its basically just a bunch of lists * some older/less used browsers will see a wacky menu, but can use the site map anyway. -- Neerav Bhatt http://www.bhatt.id.au Web Development IT consultancy Mobile: +61 403 8000 27 * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
[WSG] What Editors do you guys use?
What CSS/XHTML/HTML editors do you guys use for hand coding and testing? * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] What Editors do you guys use?
On Sat, 5 Jun 2004 23:07:25 -0500, helmut wrote: What CSS/XHTML/HTML editors do you guys use for hand coding and testing? Under ISX, ATM, subethaedit - http://www.codingmonkeys.de/subethaedit/ HIH Lea -- Lea de Groot Elysian Systems - I Understand the Internet http://elysiansystems.com/ Web Design, Usability, Information Architecture, Search Engine Optimisation Brisbane, Australia * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Centering a liquid grid of image thumbs and captions
Thanks, Bert - that's a different and very useful take on the problem. Er - Notwithstanding your PS, do you know how unwell your site is in Mac browsers? IE5 particularly - the only thing that shows up is the bgrd image (red at left). I think it's the height:100% that's doing it... If you want, I can send you some screenshots direct; I have a range of IE versions on both OS9 and OSX, and Safari 1 for OSX. Maybe some others might like to contribute sshots from other browsers? Nick ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ On Sunday, June 6, 2004, at 02:05 PM, Bert Doorn wrote: G'day Sorry, I emailed direct rather than to the list. Here it is: I stay away from using NESTED tables I try to use DIVS only (and it's fine in simple layouts) I use a maximum of one table per page, if it makes life easier, such as where there is a complex layout, or where I have something that, with some imagination, could qualify as tabular data. Having said all that, if you can control the height of the captions, you could use divs or ps with a fixed height. Have a look at the portfolio page on my site (url in signature) for an example. I use paragraphs here, but you could use divs, an unordered list, or whatever :-) The beauty (to me) of this set up is that at different resolutoins you get a different number of thumbs across. For instance, at 800x600 I see 5 across, at 1024x768 there's 7 and at 1280x1024 I get as many as 9 across. P.S. I know this site isn't perfect. Am working on it. Regards -- Bert Doorn, Better Web Design www.betterwebdesign.com.au Fast-loading, user-friendly websites -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Nick Gleitzman Sent: Sunday, 6 June 2004 11:35 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] Centering a liquid grid of image thumbs and captions Roy - ummm, did I miss a post? Can you point me to 'Bert's layout'? Thanks Nick * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] What Editors do you guys use?
What CSS/XHTML/HTML editors do you guys use for hand coding and testing? Adobe GoLive. Rick Faaberg * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] What Editors do you guys use?
On a Mac: BBEdit, but I'm testing HyperEdit (still in beta) when I've got time because it offers real-time side-by-side comparison of code and result. Not 100% sure as yet of the rendering side, though... Nick ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ On Sunday, June 6, 2004, at 02:07 PM, helmut wrote: What CSS/XHTML/HTML editors do you guys use for hand coding and testing? * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] What Editors do you guys use?
<>Visicom Media's AceHTML Pro. Version 5.09.1 is the latest live version; version 6.01.1 is a pre-release version with some added features but isn't the final version yet. I have both, I'm happy with both, looking forward to the final version 6 release. Right now you can buy version 5 and you'll get a free upgrade to version 6. http://www.visicommedia.com Leslie Riggs | What CSS/XHTML/HTML editors do you guys use for hand coding and testing?
RE: [WSG] Centering a liquid grid of image thumbs and captions
Hi Nick I don't know how my site looks on a Mac (I don't have one and am not going to waste my money on one), but it's to be expected. But as my PS said, I am changing the site. Can't be bothered to do to much to it at the moment as I don't need extra work and it works for the vast majority anyway. It's one of those cases where I have used features that work in the mainstream browser on the mainstream platform, but which are seemingly impossible to implement on other browsers. I have another site that's more up to date. www.bwdzine.net - nothing fancy there, just plain boring CSS divs (seems the server is down however). That one probably doesn't work in Mac IE either. Regards -- Bert Doorn, Better Web Design www.betterwebdesign.com.au Fast-loading, user-friendly websites -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Nick Gleitzman Sent: Sunday, 6 June 2004 12:26 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] Centering a liquid grid of image thumbs and captions Thanks, Bert - that's a different and very useful take on the problem. Er - Notwithstanding your PS, do you know how unwell your site is in Mac browsers? IE5 particularly - the only thing that shows up is the bgrd image (red at left). I think it's the height:100% that's doing it... If you want, I can send you some screenshots direct; I have a range of IE versions on both OS9 and OSX, and Safari 1 for OSX. Maybe some others might like to contribute sshots from other browsers? Nick * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] What Editors do you guys use?
I use the code view in Dreamweaver MX 2004, and I do a lot of hand coding still. I also have used TopStyle from time to time, great little utility. =) Jeremy S. www.jezzjournal.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of helmut Sent: June 5, 2004 11:07 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WSG] What Editors do you guys use? What CSS/XHTML/HTML editors do you guys use for hand coding and testing? * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] What Editors do you guys use?
helmut wrote: What CSS/XHTML/HTML editors do you guys use for hand coding and testing? Under Windows, i'm currently using HTML-Kit, nice editor with standards support. -- Cristhian Palma [EMAIL PROTECTED] +593.9.976 1992 * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE:[WSG] What Editors do you guys use?
Title: RE:[WSG] What Editors do you guys use? I use Notepad. I like to KISS (Keep it Simple Stupid).
RE: [WSG] What Editors do you guys use?
On Windows I use Homesite+ or XML SPY for HTML stuff Topstyle Pro for CSS stuff (great combination), sometimes I use HTML-Kit as well (free-be product) I also use BBEdit on Mac Cheers Jeff Lowder Accessibility 1st Website: www.accessibility1st.com.au Blog: www.accessibility1st.com.au/journal/ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of helmut Sent: Sunday, 6 June 2004 2:07 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WSG] What Editors do you guys use? What CSS/XHTML/HTML editors do you guys use for hand coding and testing? * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
[WSG] Which editors do you guys recommend?
Title: [WSG] Which editors do you guys recommend?
I've been searching for a good editor (don't say BBEdit) that has syntax highlighting and will not insert stuff (like if I type '(' in a script tag the editor will insert a ')' right after it, I don't like that).
Until then it's note pad for me.
