Re: [WSG] The Tables Revenge
On 5 jul 2004, at 22.43, ckimedia wrote: I've read this, and found it useful but isn't it retrograde making div's into table cells so we can style non tabular data in a table ? http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200406/ equal_height_boxes_with_css_part_ii/ I made that example to show that it's possible to use CSS to vertically align content in a div (or other container), or make several containers (with an unknown and variable amount of content) the same height. Just not in Internet Explorer. Since this is just visual styling, a table isn't really appropriate (unless what you're styling is tabular data, obviously). If you use a table, you're stuck with a table, and if later on you want to change the layout, you will probably need to edit the HTML as well as the CSS. /Roger -- http://www.456bereastreet.com/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
[WSG] OZEWAI 2004 (Australian Web Accessibility Initiative)
Hi, I'd just like to plug OZEWAI 2004 (http://www.ozewai.org/2004/). It would be great if people from the Web Standards Group could bring their experience and expertise to this conference. It's an annual event. Geoff * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Linking Background Images
You're in luck - ALA did an article in Accessible Image maps recently
http://www.alistapart.com/articles/imagemap/
On Mon, 5 Jul 2004 12:49:30 -0600, Shane Helm [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
This looks good. Is there a way to specify more links with one image?
What I mean is, can you make a background image an image map?
Or better yet, can you have a image referenced in CSS that have have
hot spots for the image to make it an image map? Or is the best
solution to have an image in the html file and specify the map there
(keeping content separated)? My true problem is that I have started
hand coding just about all my code, but I still have to rely on
Dreamweaver to click on my image and then put in hot spots for an image
map. Is there a better way or are image maps considered as being
unaccessible?
Sorry for all the questions. This may be all summed up in one answer.
Thank you,
Shane Helm
{ sonzeDesignStudio
On Jul 4, 2004, at 9:19 PM, Lee Roberts wrote:
Ok, my question is why the H2? What standard are you trying to
promote with
that concept?
Using an H2 in that manner breaks accessibility.
Why wouldn't you do this?
a#bG{
background: url(image.gif) no-repeat;
height: 20px;
width:220px;
display: block;
line-height: 20px;}
a href=# id=bG title=destination of the link/a
I hope this helps.
Sincerely,
Lee Roberts
http://www.roserockdesign.com
http://www.applepiecart.com
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Re: [WSG] OZEWAI 2004 (Australian Web Accessibility Initiative)
Note that its running : 1, 2 and 3 December 2004 at La Trobe University, Bundoora, Victoria. So I guess most attendees will be Victorians. -- Neerav Bhatt http://www.bhatt.id.au Web Development IT consultancy Mobile: +61 (0)403 8000 27 http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/neerav Geoff Deering wrote: Hi, I'd just like to plug OZEWAI 2004 (http://www.ozewai.org/2004/). It would be great if people from the Web Standards Group could bring their experience and expertise to this conference. It's an annual event. Geoff * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
[WSG] FW: What do you consider to be the minimum Accessibility level to cover legal requirements?
Hi all, I'm about to rewrite the technical standards for the acceptance of external, and independent, web resources. At present they are only guidelines and they suggest: . Compliance to WAI priority one (plus a little). . W3C validated coding with allowable exceptions. E.g. Flash / Framesets. These guidelines were set over 18 months ago. Now they are due for review prior to the final part of the DDA coming into UK law. It would be improper for me to dictate full WAI compliance if it is not a legal necessity. Though it is a requirement to insist on meeting the legal minimum. I was thinking as a minimum: 1. Alt tags for all: Navigation images, form image buttons and text in images. 2. Colour must not be used as the sole method of highlighting information 3. No flickering or blinking in images or text. 4. Data tables require row and column headers. (same as priority one) 5. Each frame requires a title and must point to a valid (X)HTML document. 6. Ensure that content areas are available and navigable with JavaScript / Java applets / Flash switched off. 7. Supply a text transcript to multimedia objects. 8. Ensure sufficient colour contrast. 9. Content available and navigable via keyboard. 10. Implicit form label associations (title before input). Along with recommendations to fully comply with the WAI priority one and W3C validation. What do you think? Too much or too little? cheers. mike 2k:)2 Mike Foskett Web Standards Accessibility Officer Multimedia Publishing and Production British Educational Communications and Technology Agency (BECTa) Milburn Hill Road, Science Park, Coventry CV4 7JJ Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tel: 02476 416994 Ext 3342 Fax: 02476 411410 www.becta.org.uk ** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. www.mimesweeper.com ** * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
[WSG] Save me from a table (css overflow / container div problem I think)
Hi, I have almost completed an e-commerce site using XHTML/CSS and have one last little niggle after testing on Windows IE 6. I have spent half the day googling, applying different floats, overflows, divs and clearing divs but I can't get anything to work so here's your chance to save me from a table! In the below URL you will see that any images longer than the text jump out of the containing div. It's all database driven so I don't know what any image size (height) is going to be. http://203.217.34.26/clubchef/show.php?category=100 Thanks, Christiaan * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] OZEWAI 2004 (Australian Web Accessibility Initiative)
Geoff Deering wrote: I'd just like to plug OZEWAI 2004 (http://www.ozewai.org/2004/). It would be great if people from the Web Standards Group could bring their experience and expertise to this conference. It's an annual event. I think one big problem people associate with accessibility is dull, circa 1990 style sites. This used to also be the case with web standards but sites like the zen garden have helped clear up that myth. To really promote accessibility (to web design firms and clients anyway) I think we should try and let people know that accessibility doesn't have to be dull and boring. Take the ozewai.org site. It's a great idea and I hope the conference is a big hit. However looking at it, it's really not dispelling any myths about accessibility. I personally don't have much time at the moment but would be happy to donate an old design/stylesheet that I'm not using to you guys. http://www.andybudd.com/wired_sussex/ It's by no means perfect (I'm aware of at least one glitch), but may help jazz up the site a little. Alternatively somebody out there may have some spare time on their hands and be willing to help you out with a new design. Maybe as a portfolio piece? Andy Budd * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Save me from a table (css overflow / container div problem I think)
AH... You my friend are a star! I tried every other combination I think, but not after the form element - I was concentrating on the image and creating more divs and floats separately for the image and text... If I was still in the UK I'd shout you a pint! Thanks again... Christiaan On 06/07/2004, at 6:51 PM, Mike Foskett wrote: Have you tried: /form div style=clear:both/div /div It usually solves the problem. mike 2k:)2 ** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. www.mimesweeper.com ** * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] FW: What do you consider to be the minimum Accessibility level to cover legal requirements?
Mike Foskett wrote: I'm about to rewrite the technical standards for the acceptance of external, and independent, web resources. At present they are only guidelines and they suggest: . Compliance to WAI priority one (plus a little). . W3C validated coding with allowable exceptions. E.g. Flash / Framesets. I know it's a little vague, but I'd say something like Must reach a minimum of WAI priority 1 checkpoints and aim to comply with all priority 2 checkpoints. Sites should be developed using web standards and aim to validate to a correct doctype. Exceptions will be given in rare circumstances such as dealing with legacy, non standards complaint content management systems. OK, it's not great, but better than writing your own set of criteria. Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] FW: What do you consider to be the minimum Accessibility level to cover legal requirements?
Thanks for the response Andy. Great quiz by the way. Made me think and laugh. You are suggesting the guidelines as they stand now with cases of must replacing should. The problem is they're set too high. If applied strictly then even the DRC's website would fail. Here's an extended scenario: The external resource could be a school teachers notes, developed for use in his own classes. He thinks they are okay, as they certainly help him do the job. In his benevolence he wishes to share this resource with teachers nation-wide. On said resource: . I can insist legalities are met. . I can ask for / suggest full compliance. . I can also assume the owner has little or no technical knowledge. The intention is to publish the resource, as long as it is legal, with guidance on technical improvements. Maybe the real question is: What guidelines if broken, or level of brokenness, would constitute a breach in the UK DDA laws? For example WAI Statement-ish: All images must have alt tags. Under UK law this would not be a breach if a user can access and use the service provided. Therefore this would be better stated as: Alt tags are required for: Navigational images, form image buttons, text in images, and contextually important images. This would fail WAI but pass UK law. After all the teacher should be encouraged to share resources with only the minimum of red tape. Maybe I should just simplify the whole thing? A resource may be failed for: 1. Failure to attain WAI priority one 2. Failure to publish coding to a W3C formal grammar. A resource will be failed for: 1. Failure to comply to UK law, And simply leave it to the discretion of the reviewer. Though I was hoping to achieve a checklist for a minimum (UK DDA law) pass level. mike 2k:)2 Original message Hi all, I'm about to rewrite the technical standards for the acceptance of external, and independent, web resources. At present they are only guidelines and they suggest: . Compliance to WAI priority one (plus a little). . W3C validated coding with allowable exceptions. E.g. Flash / Framesets. These guidelines were set over 18 months ago. Now they are due for review prior to the final part of the DDA coming into UK law. It would be improper for me to dictate full WAI compliance if it is not a legal necessity. Though it is a requirement to insist on meeting the legal minimum. I was thinking as a minimum: 1. Alt tags for all: Navigation images, form image buttons and text in images. 2. Colour must not be used as the sole method of highlighting information 3. No flickering or blinking in images or text. 4. Data tables require row and column headers. (same as priority one) 5. Each frame requires a title and must point to a valid (X)HTML document. 6. Ensure that content areas are available and navigable with JavaScript / Java applets / Flash switched off. 7. Supply a text transcript to multimedia objects. 8. Ensure sufficient colour contrast. 9. Content available and navigable via keyboard. 10. Implicit form label associations (title before input). Along with recommendations to fully comply with the WAI priority one and W3C validation. What do you think? Too much or too little? ** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. www.mimesweeper.com ** * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
[WSG] Hiding email address from spambots with CSS
I havent tried this, but it sounds interesting http://www.phoenity.com/newtedge/hide_email_spambots/ -- Neerav Bhatt http://www.bhatt.id.au Web Development IT consultancy Mobile: +61 (0)403 8000 27 http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/neerav * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Hiding email address from spambots with CSS
thats actually very good :) Thanks :) ___ Cameron W (aka t94xr) http://www.t94xr.net.nz/ XHTML CSS Compliant. Taupo, NZ. - Original Message - From: Neerav [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WSG [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2004 12:50 AM Subject: [WSG] Hiding email address from spambots with CSS I havent tried this, but it sounds interesting http://www.phoenity.com/newtedge/hide_email_spambots/ -- Neerav Bhatt http://www.bhatt.id.au Web Development IT consultancy Mobile: +61 (0)403 8000 27 http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/neerav * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
[WSG] Sliding Doors not working in Opera
Here's the situation: Sliding doors, right justified. Works fine in
Firefox and IE/Win 5.01+. In Opera 7.23 all the tabs line up
vertically. According to the ALA article IE/Mac does something similar.
The solution there is to float the anchors, but it doesn't help here.
The only thing which seem to help is if either the div or ul is given
sufficient width, but that's a problem because either the width will
vary based on the environment, or if I give extra width, the tabs will
no longer be forced right.
div id=nav-main
ul
lia . . .
#nav-main {
width : 100%;
line-height : 2;
text-align : center;
font-size : 2em;
font-family : Comic Sans MS, Verdana, Geneva, Arial, Helvetica,
sans-serif;
position : relative;
margin-top : -10px;
border-bottom : 5px solid #060;
}
#nav-main ul {
list-style : none;
margin : 0;
padding-right : 10px;
float : right;
}
#nav-main li {
float : left;
background : url(gray-left.gif) no-repeat left top;
margin : 0;
padding-left : 9px;
}
#nav-main a {
display : block;
font-weight : bold;
background : url(gray-right.gif) no-repeat right top;
text-decoration : none;
padding:5px 15px 5px 4px;
color : #006600;
margin : 0 2px;
}
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[WSG] I've done it again ...
Ive lost a reference to another excellent article I read about how to guarantee that two or three columns will go all the way to the bottom of the page, regardless of the length of any of the columns. Can anyone help? The article Im looking for shows how to have columns styled all the way to the bottom of the page whether the centre (main) column is the longer or not. I think Im going to have to make an index of all these articles so I can find them again. I read good stuff and think thats useful and Ill use that next time I have to do that! only when that time comes around, I cant find it again. How do the rest of you handle that? Cheers Mike Kear AFP Webworks Windsor, NSW, Australia http://afpwebworks.com
Re: [WSG] I've done it again ...
Michael Kear wrote: Ive lost a reference to another excellent article I read about how to guarantee that two or three columns will go all the way to the bottom of the page, regardless of the length of any of the columns.Can anyone help? You can do this by cheating a bit with the background, see http://www.alistapart.com/articles/fauxcolumns/ I've used this trick for my personal website ;) -- Cheers Sven Jacobs * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] I've done it again ...
El mar, 06-07-2004 a las 15:45, Michael Kear escribió: I've lost a reference to another excellent article I read about how to guarantee that two or three columns will go all the way to the bottom of the page, regardless of the length of any of the columns.Can anyone help? Could it be the Faux Columns method? http://www.alistapart.com/articles/fauxcolumns/ How do the rest of you handle that? Do you have a blog? Blogmarks. That way i can keep track of interesting links while sharing them with the world. Other people will suggest surely a service like http://del.icio.us/ or plain old bookmarks :) -- Manuel trabaja para Simplelógica, construcción web (+34) 985 22 12 65http://simplelogica.net escribe en Logicola http://simplelogica.net/logicola/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] I've done it again ...
Michael Kear wrote: Ive lost a reference to another excellent article I read about how to guarantee that two or three columns will go all the way to the bottom of the page, regardless of the length of any of the columns. Can anyone help? Was it http://positioniseverything.net/piefecta-rigid.html;? * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] FW: What do you consider to be the minimum Accessibility level to cover legal requirements?
-Original Message- From: Mike Foskett Hi all, I'm about to rewrite the technical standards for the acceptance of external, and independent, web resources. At present they are only guidelines and they suggest: . Compliance to WAI priority one (plus a little). . W3C validated coding with allowable exceptions. E.g. Flash / Framesets. These guidelines were set over 18 months ago. Now they are due for review prior to the final part of the DDA coming into UK law. It would be improper for me to dictate full WAI compliance if it is not a legal necessity. Though it is a requirement to insist on meeting the legal minimum. I was thinking as a minimum: 1. Alt tags for all: Navigation images, form image buttons and text in images. 2. Colour must not be used as the sole method of highlighting information 3. No flickering or blinking in images or text. 4. Data tables require row and column headers. (same as priority one) 5. Each frame requires a title and must point to a valid (X)HTML document. 6. Ensure that content areas are available and navigable with JavaScript / Java applets / Flash switched off. 7. Supply a text transcript to multimedia objects. 8. Ensure sufficient colour contrast. 9. Content available and navigable via keyboard. 10. Implicit form label associations (title before input). Along with recommendations to fully comply with the WAI priority one and W3C validation. What do you think? Too much or too little? cheers. mike 2k:)2 That looks pretty good (to me), just as long as you cover WCAG1 P1 you have covered basic accessibility issues. It's a good point to remember that WCAG1 was released way back in 1999 and the WAI-GL did not want to make their specifications restrictive, so they developed 3 levels of priority. The first was that in order to make your site accessible you *must* cover WCAG P1 requirements. No matter what your site was developed in, any kind of quirks mode hybrid of HTML, this was what you must do if you wanted to make your site accessible. After you had do that you had basically done enough to make the inaccessible accessible. Then if you wanted to adopt more accessibility into your design, you could apply WCAG1 P2, but back then the support for CSS, DOCTYPE and all these standards was flacky, so the term *should* was used for P2 requirements and *may* for P3. If you take the approach, like most standards based developers today, to adopt P2 (and P3) requirements, much of P1 begins to be less of an issue because you don't get so caught in bad design implementations (semantically speaking). For instance, if you are fully utilising markup as 3.1 indicates (http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT/wai-pageauth.html#tech-use-markup) then anything that is a textual representation should be marked up appropriately rather than put into an image of text, which means you are only providing alt text for media that is uniquely an image or whatever. It used to be stated on the WAI site a few years back (not too obviously) that to really claim to be an accessible site you needed to meet both P1 P2, but that was pretty tough then considering the support from user agents for the standards required to meet P2, the evolution of CSS, etc, so it's better to just keep the requirement of P1. But developers that follow standards, like those on this list are pretty much focused on addressing the P2 core, and even P3, just by the nature of their approach to standards and design. WCAG2 is still in draft, but it has a much more mature flavour. There is a much stronger element of usability about it http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/ The WAI-GL are really trying to bring out something that more clearly expresses the issues. Geoff * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Hiding email address from spambots with CSS
Neerav wrote: I havent tried this, but it sounds interesting http://www.phoenity.com/newtedge/hide_email_spambots/ Two problems: doesn't allow mailto:; and doesn't work in IE. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Hiding email address from spambots with CSS
Also, on Firebird you can't copy and paste the email address which is a bit annoying. Also, it would be a bit annoying to deploy on site where the email address links are generated dynamically, you'd need to generate a bit of CSS as well as the link. All in all, I wouldn't use that method. Mordechai Peller [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Neerav wrote: I havent tried this, but it sounds interesting http://www.phoenity.com/newtedge/hide_email_spambots/ Two problems: doesn't allow mailto:; and doesn't work in IE. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] The Tables Revenge
Hi, Thanks, it is truly enlightening hearing from the author. So this is not an example of how to convert div's to cells but just vertical alignment without the need for images, so semantically all is good with this technique? C On Tuesday, July 6, 2004, at 12:08 AM, Roger Johansson wrote: On 5 jul 2004, at 22.43, ckimedia wrote: I've read this, and found it useful but isn't it retrograde making div's into table cells so we can style non tabular data in a table ? http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200406/ equal_height_boxes_with_css_part_ii/ I made that example to show that it's possible to use CSS to vertically align content in a div (or other container), or make several containers (with an unknown and variable amount of content) the same height. Just not in Internet Explorer. Since this is just visual styling, a table isn't really appropriate (unless what you're styling is tabular data, obviously). If you use a table, you're stuck with a table, and if later on you want to change the layout, you will probably need to edit the HTML as well as the CSS. /Roger -- http://www.456bereastreet.com/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Hiding email address from spambots with CSS
I use the following javascript. It works well for me.
script language=JavaScript!--
var name = insert username;
var domain = insert domain name;
document.write('a href=\mailto:' + name + '@' + domain + '\');
document.write(name + '@' + domain + '/a');
// --/script
just place it in your code where the usual a href tag would go.
If you want to add a class to it, it goes here -- domain + '\ class= ');
Ted
-Original Message-
From: Mordechai Peller [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2004 7:40 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG] Hiding email address from spambots with CSS
Neerav wrote:
I havent tried this, but it sounds interesting
http://www.phoenity.com/newtedge/hide_email_spambots/
Two problems: doesn't allow mailto:; and doesn't work in IE.
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RE: [WSG] I've done it again ...
No it wasn't that one Mordechai, but it's a terrific article. That's a fantastic resource. And it can build your styles automatically too!! Thanks for finding it. I never fail to be astonished at the worthwhile and downright practical ideas coming from this list, day after day. Thanks again! Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mordechai Peller Sent: Wednesday, 7 July 2004 12:20 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] I've done it again ... Michael Kear wrote: I've lost a reference to another excellent article I read about how to guarantee that two or three columns will go all the way to the bottom of the page, regardless of the length of any of the columns. Can anyone help? Was it http://positioniseverything.net/piefecta-rigid.html;? * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Hiding email address from spambots with CSS
- Original Message - From: Ted Drake [EMAIL PROTECTED] I use the following javascript. It works well for me. Ted - the downside beign they dont use a JS enabled browser? They cant contact you. Better is a PHP Contact Form John Wyles has one - a very good one indeed. ___ Cameron W (aka t94xr) http://www.t94xr.net.nz/ XHTML CSS Compliant. Taupo, NZ. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG]headers
On the H1 issue, there are many
people that think using an H1 around the logo or hidden text.
Unfortunately, that is improper. Your H1 should be visible and should support the title of the
page.
Yes it does... but
I'm also quite confused. I thought the way I set up the page would better if
youcan't see the pageand have to use a screenreader.Is it better to
use the H1, H2
and H3 tags the way you described or is the way I use them also OK? (and that
would be H1=group describtion, H2=page describtion and H3 as describtion for the paragraphs which
are short news)
Kim, here's what the html4 specs say
about Headings:
quote
A heading element briefly describes the
topic of the section it introduces. Heading information may be used by user
agents, for example, to construct a table of contents for a document
automatically.
There are six levels of headings in HTML
with H1 as the most important and H6 as the least. Visual browsers usually
render more important headings in larger fonts than less important ones.
The following example shows how to use the
DIV element to associate a heading with the document section that follows it. Doing
so allows you to define a style for the section (color the background, set the
font, etc.) with style sheets.
DIV class=section
id=forest-elephants
H1Forest
elephants/H1
PIn this section, we discuss the
lesser known forest elephants.
...this section continues...
DIV class=subsection
id=forest-habitat
H2Habitat/H2
PForest
elephants do not live in trees but among them.
...this subsection continues...
/DIV
/DIV
This structure may be decorated with style
information such as:
HEAD
TITLE... document title
.../TITLE
STYLE type=text/css
DIV.section { text-align: justify;
font-size: 12pt}
DIV.subsection { text-indent: 2em }
H1 { font-style: italic; color: green }
H2 { color: green }
/STYLE
/HEAD
Numbered sections and references
HTML does not itself cause section numbers
to be generated from headings. This facility may be offered by user agents,
however. Soon, style sheet languages such as CSS will allow authors to control
the generation of section numbers (handy for forward references in printed
documents, as in See section 7.2).
Some people consider skipping heading
levels to be bad practice. They accept H1 H2 H1 while they do not accept H1 H3
H1 since the heading level H2 is skipped.
/quote
You'll notice this says nothing
about pages. The text discusses identifying main sections and subsections relating
to the main section. The example given shows headings used in a division not a
page. The discussion has to do with the logical relationship of headings to
sectional topics.
Logical inference based on text and
example leads to several "guidelines". Firstly, all headings within
a section must relate to the topic of the section of which the headings are a part.
The section must a logical consistency in terms of its content. If the section
discusses how to nail a fascia board it shouldn't have instructions for laying
roof tiles. So if you extract all headings they would fall into logical and
separate, possible related, content groupings.
Secondly, the only required heading is h1.
You have to start with h1 and add subheads all of which have to be related to
the h1 section topic. The vague discussion of "some people" not
approving of skipped levels does not say that a hierarchy of headings is
required. But that stricture and the section on styling do imply that headers
should not be used for font effect. Style the header but style it within its
structural usage, just as the example does.
It might be considered de classe to use a
single h1 for an entire site but it is no more so than insisting each page have
its own h1. The use of headers is an author's choice requiring only that
the header be used correctly. Indeed there is no requirement that any headers
be used. Good writing can obviate the need for headers, although their presence
certainly makes things easier for the reader. So if your h1 is a multiple
page grouping with h2 identifying the separate pages, that seems proper. If
your h3 is used for font sizing and appearance, that is improper. But if the h3
is used to introduce the new shorts, that seems proper.
drew
Re: [WSG] Hiding email address from spambots with CSS
How's about: pso-and-soscriptdocument.write(@anywhere.com)/scriptnoscript@anywhere.com/noscript/p At least you're covered whether or not JavaScript is enabled. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG]headers
Let's discuss some issues for a moment and perhaps some light will shine
upon some comments.
Drew [qoute]The vague discussion of some people not approving of
skipped levels does not say that a hierarchy of headings is
required.[/quote]
The vague discussion of some people refers to the International Standards
Organization. In their specifications they specifically state that headings
must follow a logical order and not skip any heading tags.
http://www.cs.tcd.ie/15445/15445.HTML
[quote]
The H1 element shall not be followed by an H3, H4, H5 or
H6 element without an intervening H2 element.
The H2 element shall not be followed by an H4, H5 or H6
element without an intervening H3 element.
The H3 element shall not be followed by an H5 or H6 element
without an intervening H4 element.
The H4 element shall not be followed by an H6 element without an
intervening H5 element.
An H2 element shall be preceded by an H1 element.
An H3 element shall be preceded by an H2 element.
An H4 element shall be preceded by an H3 element.
An H5 element shall be preceded by an H4 element.
An H6 element shall be preceded by an H5 element.
[/quote]
Drew [quote]So if your h1 is a multiple page grouping with h2 identifying
the separate pages, that seems proper. If your h3 is used for font sizing
and appearance, that is improper. But if the h3 is used to introduce the new
shorts, that seems proper.[/quote]
First, you can have pages without headings - that I'll agree with. However,
once you start approaching any attempt to comply with WCAG you need to
follow the standards correctly.
If, for example, the SSA.gov site has a group of related links they can be
grouped under a heading tag because those links fit into a sectional
heading.
Part of using headings properly is to aid accessibility and helping people
scan the web page. Based upon those two requirements the use of heading
tags as they are in Kim's site do not qualify - therefore, they are only
font declarations and strong or CSS:font-weight:bold should be used to
make those elements bold.
Please explain why you might think a couple of sentences qualifies to be
under it's own sectional heading. I'd really be interested in learning the
thought process there. Two sentences do not qualify for a sectional heading
in a book; why would they in a web page?
Thanks,
Lee Roberts
http://www.roserockdesign.com
http://www.applepiecart.com
From: Trusz, Andrew [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2004 9:08 AM
To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'
Subject: RE: [WSG]headers
On the H1 issue, there are many people that think using an H1 around the
logo or hidden text. Unfortunately, that is improper. Your H1 should be
visible and should support the title of the page.
Yes it does... but I'm also quite confused. I thought the way I set up the
page would better if you can't see the pageand have to use a screenreader.
Is it better to use the H1, H2 and H3 tags the way you described or is the
way I use them also OK? (and that would be H1=group describtion, H2=page
describtion and H3 as describtion for the paragraphs which are short news)
Kim, here's what the html4 specs say about Headings:
quote
A heading element briefly describes the topic of the section it introduces.
Heading information may be used by user agents, for example, to construct a
table of contents for a document automatically.
There are six levels of headings in HTML with H1 as the most important and
H6 as the least. Visual browsers usually render more important headings in
larger fonts than less important ones.
The following example shows how to use the DIV element to associate a
heading with the document section that follows it. Doing so allows you to
define a style for the section (color the background, set the font, etc.)
with style sheets.
DIV class=section id=forest-elephants
H1Forest elephants/H1
PIn this section, we discuss the lesser known forest elephants.
...this section continues...
DIV class=subsection id=forest-habitat
H2Habitat/H2
PForest elephants do not live in trees but among them.
...this subsection continues...
/DIV
/DIV
This structure may be decorated with style information such as:
HEAD
TITLE... document title .../TITLE
STYLE type=text/css
DIV.section { text-align: justify; font-size: 12pt}
DIV.subsection { text-indent: 2em }
H1 { font-style: italic; color: green }
H2 { color: green }
/STYLE
/HEAD
Numbered sections and references
HTML does not itself cause section numbers to be generated from headings.
This facility may be offered by user agents, however. Soon, style sheet
languages such as CSS will allow authors to control the generation of
section numbers (handy for forward references in printed documents, as in
See section 7.2).
Some people consider skipping heading levels to be bad practice. They accept
H1 H2 H1 while they do not
Re: [WSG]headers
Hi Drew,
Thank you for your very detailed explanation. It was actually just what
I needed because I'm almost running over with reading specs from W3 and
numorus other sources. (It's now saved in my useful folder on my
backup drive)
Anyway your last paragraph did it for me because that just what my
intentions was... so I'm happy :o)
THANK YOU
Kim
Kim, here's what the html4 specs say about Headings:
quote
A heading element briefly describes the topic of the section it
introduces. Heading information may be used by user agents, for
example, to construct a table of contents for a document automatically.
There are six levels of headings in HTML with H1 as the most important
and H6 as the least. Visual browsers usually render more important
headings in larger fonts than less important ones.
The following example shows how to use the DIV element to associate a
heading with the document section that follows it. Doing so allows you
to define a style for the section (color the background, set the font,
etc.) with style sheets.
DIV class=section id=forest-elephants
H1Forest elephants/H1
PIn this section, we discuss the lesser known forest elephants.
...this section continues...
DIV class=subsection id=forest-habitat
H2Habitat/H2
PForest elephants do not live in trees but among them.
...this subsection continues...
/DIV
/DIV
This structure may be decorated with style information such as:
HEAD
TITLE... document title .../TITLE
STYLE type=text/css
DIV.section { text-align: justify; font-size: 12pt}
DIV.subsection { text-indent: 2em }
H1 { font-style: italic; color: green }
H2 { color: green }
/STYLE
/HEAD
Numbered sections and references
HTML does not itself cause section numbers to be generated from
headings. This facility may be offered by user agents, however. Soon,
style sheet languages such as CSS will allow authors to control the
generation of section numbers (handy for forward references in printed
documents, as in See section 7.2).
Some people consider skipping heading levels to be bad practice. They
accept H1 H2 H1 while they do not accept H1 H3 H1 since the heading
level H2 is skipped.
/quote
You'll notice this says nothing about pages. The text discusses
identifying main sections and subsections relating to the main
section. The example given shows headings used in a division not a
page. The discussion has to do with the logical relationship of
headings to sectional topics.
Logical inference based on text and example leads to several
guidelines. Firstly, all headings within a section must relate to
the topic of the section of which the headings are a part. The section
must a logical consistency in terms of its content. If the section
discusses how to nail a fascia board it shouldn't have instructions
for laying roof tiles. So if you extract all headings they would fall
into logical and separate, possible related, content groupings.
Secondly, the only required heading is h1. You have to start with h1
and add subheads all of which have to be related to the h1 section
topic. The vague discussion of some people not approving of skipped
levels does not say that a hierarchy of headings is required. But that
stricture and the section on styling do imply that headers should not
be used for font effect. Style the header but style it within its
structural usage, just as the example does.
It might be considered de classe to use a single h1 for an entire site
but it is no more so than insisting each page have its own h1. The use
of headers is an author's choice requiring only that the header be
used correctly. Indeed there is no requirement that any headers be
used. Good writing can obviate the need for headers, although their
presence certainly makes things easier for the reader. So if your h1
is a multiple page grouping with h2 identifying the separate pages,
that seems proper. If your h3 is used for font sizing and appearance,
that is improper. But if the h3 is used to introduce the new shorts,
that seems proper.
drew
--
Med venlig hilsen
Mouseriders.dk
Kim K Jonsson
Denne e-mail kan indeholde materiale der kun er beregnet for adressaten. Indeholdet må ikke udleveres eller kopieres til noget medie. Har du ved en fejltagelse modtaget denne e-mail, beder vi dig meddele os det og destruere e-mailen.
This e-mail may contain material only meant for the recipient. The content may not be
transferred og copied to any other media. Have you received this e-mail by mistake we
kindly ask you to inform us and delete this e-amil from your reccords.
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the
RE: [WSG]headers
Didn't want to get sucked into this issue but thought ... bugger :o) Headings go from h1 ~ 6 with no gaps; neither should they run anything other than h1 down to h6, meaning h1, h3, h2 is not permissible ordering. Headings assist with scanning whether or not using AT or dealing with impaired as opposed to mainstream users. Additionally, it's worthwhile for this very purpose to supplement primary headings (h2, h2 or h3 for argument's sake) with a subsequent summary sentence or short paragraph to further assist with scanning. You're endeavouring to make the content easily summarised so users can speedily recognise on-topic pages amongst the flotsam of search results. Multiple h1 heading are, in my view, barely permissible only when dealing with verbose or volumous copy, where sections of equal weight and significance to the page topic cause challenges with the scrolled page length. Having said that the page summary should be an h1 followed by summary then the sections should be headed up with h2s, and so on. Because many ATs don't read the browser title, h1 headings should be readily synonymous with the title. Where I think developers get confused or lazy is once they've constructed a number of CSS-styled pages and suddenly find the h2 they want is visually incorrect and breaks the aesthetics of a page ... never mind, the next size fits :o( ... when in fact a bit of specificity tweaking would speedily fix it. Headings represent the hierarchy of summary importance, with subtopics of not dissimilar weight (importance) carrying the same level of heading until the theme of the page is played out to conclusion. Mike Pepper Accessible Web Developer www.seowebsitepromotion.com Administrator www.gawds.org -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Lee Roberts Sent: 06 July 2004 18:47 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [WSG]headers Let's discuss some issues for a moment and perhaps some light will shine upon some comments. Drew [qoute]The vague discussion of some people not approving of skipped levels does not say that a hierarchy of headings is required.[/quote] The vague discussion of some people refers to the International Standards Organization. In their specifications they specifically state that headings must follow a logical order and not skip any heading tags. http://www.cs.tcd.ie/15445/15445.HTML [quote] The H1 element shall not be followed by an H3, H4, H5 or H6 element without an intervening H2 element. The H2 element shall not be followed by an H4, H5 or H6 element without an intervening H3 element. The H3 element shall not be followed by an H5 or H6 element without an intervening H4 element. The H4 element shall not be followed by an H6 element without an intervening H5 element. An H2 element shall be preceded by an H1 element. An H3 element shall be preceded by an H2 element. An H4 element shall be preceded by an H3 element. An H5 element shall be preceded by an H4 element. An H6 element shall be preceded by an H5 element. [/quote] Drew [quote]So if your h1 is a multiple page grouping with h2 identifying the separate pages, that seems proper. If your h3 is used for font sizing and appearance, that is improper. But if the h3 is used to introduce the new shorts, that seems proper.[/quote] First, you can have pages without headings - that I'll agree with. However, once you start approaching any attempt to comply with WCAG you need to follow the standards correctly. If, for example, the SSA.gov site has a group of related links they can be grouped under a heading tag because those links fit into a sectional heading. Part of using headings properly is to aid accessibility and helping people scan the web page. Based upon those two requirements the use of heading tags as they are in Kim's site do not qualify - therefore, they are only font declarations and strong or CSS:font-weight:bold should be used to make those elements bold. Please explain why you might think a couple of sentences qualifies to be under it's own sectional heading. I'd really be interested in learning the thought process there. Two sentences do not qualify for a sectional heading in a book; why would they in a web page? Thanks, Lee Roberts http://www.roserockdesign.com http://www.applepiecart.com From: Trusz, Andrew [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2004 9:08 AM To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' Subject: RE: [WSG]headers On the H1 issue, there are many people that think using an H1 around the logo or hidden text. Unfortunately, that is improper. Your H1 should be visible and should support the title of the page. Yes it does... but I'm also quite confused. I thought the way I set up the page would better if you can't see the pageand have to use a screenreader. Is it better to use the H1, H2 and H3 tags the way you described or is the way I use them also OK? (and
RE: [WSG]headers
Let's discuss some issues for a moment and perhaps some light will shine upon some comments. Drew [qoute]The vague discussion of some people not approving of skipped levels does not say that a hierarchy of headings is required.[/quote] The vague discussion of some people refers to the International Standards Organization. In their specifications they specifically state that headings must follow a logical order and not skip any heading tags. http://www.cs.tcd.ie/15445/15445.HTM - So you are saying the specifications are incomplete? Some people does not equate to headers must be in hierarchical order. Readers of the specifications cannot be reasonably expected to know there are other documents which supersede the specs unless they are so informed. Where did I miss that in the specs? Either the specs are authoritative or they are not. If they are then what they say is what needs to be followed. Other material is then by definition extraneous. One can only go by what is written not what was really meant. The logic of language suggests that since the term some people was used and not a definitive statement that hierarchy order of headings need not be respected. The paragraph is saying there is a school of thought which endorses hierarchy but that the specs do not. Otherwise the language doesn't mean what it says. And that would make the document worthless. First, you can have pages without headings - that I'll agree with. However, once you start approaching any attempt to comply with WCAG you need to follow the standards correctly. Actually what she'd have to do is apply headers according to the specs and then apply WCAG. Can't say if she'd done so since I haven't looked at the site. Nor do I know exactly what WCAG standards you are saying she has to apply. You or I might have organized the material differently but that is immaterial to applying the standards properly. As to a two word section, it is conceivable. It probably isn't going to be great literature but there is no theoretical reason it can't be done. So let's try an h1 of fire followed by the single word hot. Not really useful but proper. drew * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG]headers
You're most welcome. Good luck with it.
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Kim Kruse
Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2004 2:05 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG]headers
Hi Drew,
Thank you for your very detailed explanation. It was actually just what
I needed because I'm almost running over with reading specs from W3 and
numorus other sources. (It's now saved in my useful folder on my
backup drive)
Anyway your last paragraph did it for me because that just what my
intentions was... so I'm happy :o)
THANK YOU
Kim
Kim, here's what the html4 specs say about Headings:
quote
A heading element briefly describes the topic of the section it
introduces. Heading information may be used by user agents, for
example, to construct a table of contents for a document automatically.
There are six levels of headings in HTML with H1 as the most important
and H6 as the least. Visual browsers usually render more important
headings in larger fonts than less important ones.
The following example shows how to use the DIV element to associate a
heading with the document section that follows it. Doing so allows you
to define a style for the section (color the background, set the font,
etc.) with style sheets.
DIV class=section id=forest-elephants
H1Forest elephants/H1
PIn this section, we discuss the lesser known forest elephants.
...this section continues...
DIV class=subsection id=forest-habitat
H2Habitat/H2
PForest elephants do not live in trees but among them.
...this subsection continues...
/DIV
/DIV
This structure may be decorated with style information such as:
HEAD
TITLE... document title .../TITLE
STYLE type=text/css
DIV.section { text-align: justify; font-size: 12pt}
DIV.subsection { text-indent: 2em }
H1 { font-style: italic; color: green }
H2 { color: green }
/STYLE
/HEAD
Numbered sections and references
HTML does not itself cause section numbers to be generated from
headings. This facility may be offered by user agents, however. Soon,
style sheet languages such as CSS will allow authors to control the
generation of section numbers (handy for forward references in printed
documents, as in See section 7.2).
Some people consider skipping heading levels to be bad practice. They
accept H1 H2 H1 while they do not accept H1 H3 H1 since the heading
level H2 is skipped.
/quote
You'll notice this says nothing about pages. The text discusses
identifying main sections and subsections relating to the main
section. The example given shows headings used in a division not a
page. The discussion has to do with the logical relationship of
headings to sectional topics.
Logical inference based on text and example leads to several
guidelines. Firstly, all headings within a section must relate to
the topic of the section of which the headings are a part. The section
must a logical consistency in terms of its content. If the section
discusses how to nail a fascia board it shouldn't have instructions
for laying roof tiles. So if you extract all headings they would fall
into logical and separate, possible related, content groupings.
Secondly, the only required heading is h1. You have to start with h1
and add subheads all of which have to be related to the h1 section
topic. The vague discussion of some people not approving of skipped
levels does not say that a hierarchy of headings is required. But that
stricture and the section on styling do imply that headers should not
be used for font effect. Style the header but style it within its
structural usage, just as the example does.
It might be considered de classe to use a single h1 for an entire site
but it is no more so than insisting each page have its own h1. The use
of headers is an author's choice requiring only that the header be
used correctly. Indeed there is no requirement that any headers be
used. Good writing can obviate the need for headers, although their
presence certainly makes things easier for the reader. So if your h1
is a multiple page grouping with h2 identifying the separate pages,
that seems proper. If your h3 is used for font sizing and appearance,
that is improper. But if the h3 is used to introduce the new shorts,
that seems proper.
drew
--
Med venlig hilsen
Mouseriders.dk
Kim K Jonsson
Denne e-mail kan indeholde materiale der kun er beregnet for adressaten.
Indeholdet må ikke udleveres eller kopieres til noget medie. Har du ved en
fejltagelse modtaget denne e-mail, beder vi dig meddele os det og destruere
e-mailen.
This e-mail may contain material only meant for the recipient. The content
may not be transferred og copied to any other media. Have you received this
e-mail by mistake we kindly ask
Re: [WSG] I've done it again ...
On 06 Jul 2004 17:16:02 +0200, Manuel González Noriega [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Do you have a blog? Blogmarks. That way i can keep track of interesting links while sharing them with the world. Other people will suggest surely a service like http://del.icio.us/ or plain old bookmarks :) I have a wiki on my site, so that I can categorize and annotate my bookmarks. It's become a huge organic sprawling beast in less than a year, but *so* useful. On an almost completely unrelated and off-topic topic, I find it interesting that the word Favourites has never become as popular as Bookmarks, even amongst casual non-technical users, despite the fact that IE has like 110% market share. I guess it's because you can't use favourite a link, whereas you can certainly bookmark it. -- Kay Smoljak http://kay.smoljak.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] mcafee site built with css
Hey Friends, Thought I'd pop in and thank Tim for noticing the redesign. Iza, I am definitely aware of the text-size issues and am working diligently to get them resolved ASAP. I would love to include a style-sheet switcher but have been unable to get the go ahead for that and the designers are very particular about the dimensions of each page element. Sigh. Just to clarify, McAfee is not owned by Computer Associates. We actually just changed our name from Network Associates back to the more recognizable McAfee name. Hence the redesign of the home page. And yes, only the home page at the moment. Localized 16 ways. It's certainly just the beginning for standards based web development and design here at McAfee and as I mentioned to Tim in my email to him, we're just getting started. :-) Regards, Steve Ganz McAfee, Inc. -Original Message- From: Iza Bartosiewicz Subject: RE: [WSG] mcafee site built with css Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 23:07:21 -0700 Hi Tim, you might also pass on the message to the developers that the hp page needs to be tested for accessibility compliance, I found several errors just by doing few basic tests, eg. the page does not render correctly when text size is increased (checked in IE 5.5 and Firefox). cheers Iza * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG]headers
There are more than W3C standards. While the W3C standards are great, they leave too much to interpretation. Hence the problem that arises here. Lee [quote]However, once you start approaching any attempt to comply with WCAG you need to follow the standards correctly.[/quote] Drew [quote]Actually what she'd have to do is apply headers according to the specs and then apply WCAG.[/quote] Drew's statement says the same thing I did. Follow the HTML specs and then apply WCAG. WCAG in the case of heading says to use them correctly. While the W3C doesn't really clarify how they should be used, the ISO standards do. I would suggest using them, they'll help a lot more. But the point of my statement was clarification of what some people means. I always thought it was helpful for someone to explain something that people don't understand so that others may understand it. Lee [quote]Part of using headings properly is to aid accessibility and helping people scan the web page. Based upon those two requirements the use of heading tags as they are in Kim's site do not qualify - therefore, they are only font declarations and strong or CSS:font-weight:bold should be used to make those elements bold. Please explain why you might think a couple of sentences qualifies to be under it's own sectional heading. I'd really be interested in learning the thought process there. Two sentences do not qualify for a sectional heading in a book; why would they in a web page?[/quote] Drew [quote]As to a two word section, it is conceivable. It probably isn't going to be great literature but there is no theoretical reason it can't be done. So let's try an h1 of fire followed by the single word hot. Not really useful but proper.[/quote] Where did I say anything about a two word section? I specifically said a couple of sentences and then two sentences. Proper language skills declares that a sentence contain a noun/pronoun, verb and subject. Anything less is actually a sentence fragment and would then need updating once the WCAG2 is released since it requires clear and easily understood language. I hope this helps. Sincerely, Lee Roberts http://www.roserockdesign.com http://www.applepiecart.com -Original Message- From: Trusz, Andrew [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2004 12:35 PM To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' Subject: RE: [WSG]headers Let's discuss some issues for a moment and perhaps some light will shine upon some comments. Drew [qoute]The vague discussion of some people not approving of skipped levels does not say that a hierarchy of headings is required.[/quote] The vague discussion of some people refers to the International Standards Organization. In their specifications they specifically state that headings must follow a logical order and not skip any heading tags. http://www.cs.tcd.ie/15445/15445.HTM - So you are saying the specifications are incomplete? Some people does not equate to headers must be in hierarchical order. Readers of the specifications cannot be reasonably expected to know there are other documents which supersede the specs unless they are so informed. Where did I miss that in the specs? Either the specs are authoritative or they are not. If they are then what they say is what needs to be followed. Other material is then by definition extraneous. One can only go by what is written not what was really meant. The logic of language suggests that since the term some people was used and not a definitive statement that hierarchy order of headings need not be respected. The paragraph is saying there is a school of thought which endorses hierarchy but that the specs do not. Otherwise the language doesn't mean what it says. And that would make the document worthless. First, you can have pages without headings - that I'll agree with. However, once you start approaching any attempt to comply with WCAG you need to follow the standards correctly. Actually what she'd have to do is apply headers according to the specs and then apply WCAG. Can't say if she'd done so since I haven't looked at the site. Nor do I know exactly what WCAG standards you are saying she has to apply. You or I might have organized the material differently but that is immaterial to applying the standards properly. As to a two word section, it is conceivable. It probably isn't going to be great literature but there is no theoretical reason it can't be done. So let's try an h1 of fire followed by the single word hot. Not really useful but proper. drew * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See
Re: [WSG] Hiding email address from spambots with CSS
Neerav wrote: I havent tried this, but it sounds interesting http://www.phoenity.com/newtedge/hide_email_spambots/ Nice concept -- but -- all it takes is for a spammer to start harvesting based on the \40 string and stream substitute it for the @ into their DB. Given the incompatibility with IE, the fact that Firefox cannot copy + paste it, and the large amounts of CSS for more and more email addresses on a site, it suddenly becomes a not-so-good idea anymore. To make matters worse, if someone were to publish their business' email addresses like this in a single CSS file - well... can you imagine every email address available for a spammer to download? That would be like hiding the keys to your house under a fake rock. That's pink. (Well, maybe harvestors don't parse CSS, yet...). -- /** * Adam Carmichael * [EMAIL PROTECTED] /( _,-,_ )\ _| |_ /,|| * #1 Computer Services \`/ \'/ _| |_|| * BSD/UNIX Cisco Network Engineer\ /,\ /,\ /| |_||_ **/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] I've done it again ...
Hey Kay I have a wiki on my site, so that I can categorize and annotate my bookmarks. It's become a huge organic sprawling beast in less than a year, but *so* useful. The resources section of the WSG site is meant to be just this type of beast (http://webstandardsgroup.org/resources/) except that is nice public and administrable by all WSG memebers. Come on guys - lets make it a worth while resouce! Cheers Mark -- Mark Stanton Gruden Pty Ltd http://www.gruden.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Hiding email address from spambots with CSS
HI All My thoughts on this issue are here: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/msg05509.html If doesn't really matter what obfuscation method you use: - If its visible to users spam harvestors can get it if they really want to. - The more you hide it (via js, css or what ever else) the more you lose on accessibility. Spam has to be stopped on delivery - hiding email addresses is a bandaid solution and a poor one at that. Cheers Mark -- Mark Stanton Gruden Pty Ltd http://www.gruden.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Footer
Frstly thanks to everyone that answered How about this for a crazy thought reguards getting a footer connected to a external style sheet, If I made a small image map ...called it a background image and placed it at bottom centre. Is there any reason why that could/would not work? Ern Marshall In Vietnam we have lived hours of fraternal, warm and exalting nobility. Here for a few days we have ceased to be slaves and have really been men. It is hard to return to servitude. http://www.hotkey.net.au/~marshalle/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] I've done it again ...
Kay Smoljak wrote: On an almost completely unrelated and off-topic topic, I find it interesting that the word Favourites has never become as popular as Bookmarks, even amongst casual non-technical users, despite the fact that IE has like 110% market share. I guess it's because you can't use favourite a link, whereas you can certainly bookmark it. Good point, there may be hope for standards yet. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Hiding email address from spambots with CSS
Mark Stanton wrote: - If its visible to users spam harvestors can get it if they really want to. Of course. The point is just to make it more difficult. A car alarm doesn't stop car theft, but with all else equal, the thief will choose one without an alarm. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Hiding email address from spambots with CSS
Of course. The point is just to make it more difficult. A car alarm doesn't stop car theft, but with all else equal, the thief will choose one without an alarm. That's fine true but by making it difficult for spam bots you also make it difficult for your users. -- Mark Stanton Gruden Pty Ltd http://www.gruden.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
