Re: [WSG] *DETECTED* Online User Violation
On 5/31/05 1:47 AM [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] sent this out: We regret to inform you that your account has been suspended due to the violation of our site policy, more info is attached. Detected what? What did I do so wrong? Man, I thought I was a good citizen here. Thank you, Rick ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] *DETECTED* Online User Violation
Is this a virus? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Style PRE with word wrap?
I'm trying to make a page that will display some source code. The PRE tag works very will with retaining \t and \n but I can not find a way to make it wrap words. Words fly off the monitor... I've been reading around (via Google) and I find others with similar problems but no solution. Is there a solution to this? Help... ;) ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] *DETECTED* Online User Violation
Hey, what is this? it seems to have been mailed to the list and not specifically to me? Spam? -- Nathan Wheatley On 31/05/2005, at 6:47 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We regret to inform you that your account has been suspended due to the violation of our site policy, more info is attached. information.zip ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Do not open the DETECTED message cause it contains a virus/trojan
The message is in the public archives and not adressed to you. It contains a zip-file. This zip contains a htm-file, but in fact its a htmpif wich will infect you Windows computer * Delete the message. * regards, Ingo Chao ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] *DETECTED* Online User Violation
It's a virus - Just ignore it! On 5/31/05, Nathan Wheatley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey, what is this? it seems to have been mailed to the list and not specifically to me? Spam? -- Nathan Wheatley On 31/05/2005, at 6:47 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We regret to inform you that your account has been suspended due to the violation of our site policy, more info is attached. information.zip ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] warning *DETECTED* Online User Violation
DONT open the zip file attached to that USER VIOLATION email. I dowloaded it an my virus software picked up a trojan horse right away. -kvnmcwebn ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] *DETECTED* Online User Violation
I've been receiving a few messages like this, but from my [EMAIL PROTECTED] so it looks like I'm emailing myself. It always says more info is attached and there's always a zipped attachment included. ~john Just fair-weather words from a four-letter friend. on 5/31/2005 10:06 AM Rick Faaberg said the following: On 5/31/05 1:47 AM [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] sent this out: We regret to inform you that your account has been suspended due to the violation of our site policy, more info is attached. Detected what? What did I do so wrong? Man, I thought I was a good citizen here. Thank you, Rick ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Style PRE with word wrap?
I'm trying to make a page that will display some source code. The PRE tag works very will with retaining \t and \n but I can not find a way to make it wrap words. Words fly off the monitor... Shouldn't you be using the code tag instead? It's a semantically better option. However, the problem will still remain. Prabhath http://nidahas.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] VIRUS!!!
Well, that was fun! I foolishly trusted that the email was from the group ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) and that I had for some reason been suspended. So I opened the attachment and clicked the file! How foolish of me! If only I had expanded the width of the filename column. It even had a program like icon. I suppose it was kinda intelligent of them to include so many trailing spaces before the file extension so I'm semi impressed as I haven't been caught like that before. It automatically shuts down task manager when you try to open it too so it was real battle to try and end the process in the 1 second you have before it closes. It appears it was sent through the wsg mail server so maybe you guys should check if it is still in the queue somewhere? Assuming this wasn't only sent to me. Oh great, it also adds entries to your host file, shuts down Norton and turns off your firewall. Ohhh the pain! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jan Brasna Sent: Tuesday, 31 May 2005 1:57 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Definition lists for comments in blogs Foobar IS F.U.B.A.R. It isn't, it's only derived from it. See http://kb.iu.edu/data/aetq.html -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Style PRE with word wrap?
Prabhath - code is an inline element, so while is should probably be included somewhere in marking up code, you need something else on the outside of it to create the block. pre is semantically pretty sound for this, since code is pre-formatted and some languages are white-space sensitive, for example. Vaska - Unfortunately there's nothing in the CSS2 spec that I know of to do what you want (see: http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/text.html#white-space-prop). You can either obey the white-space in the source code or automatically wrap to the box, but not both. The equivalent part of the CSS Level 3 spec is massively improved though; providing additional white-space values and additional properties for controlling individual parts of white-space handling. white-space itself now effectively sets different combinations of values for these new properties. I have no idea what Opera/Firefox/Safari/K support is like for this yet, but I believe that the text module is pretty stable spec wise, so expect some implementations sooner rather than later, if not already. See: http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-text/#white-space If implementations do exist, you might be able to compromise your design by using a CSS2 compatible white-space setting and overflow scrolling for any long lines, then set the CSS3 value afterwards for better handling in newer browsers as and when they support it. Cheers, Ben On 5/31/05, Prabhath Sirisena [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm trying to make a page that will display some source code. The PRE tag works very will with retaining \t and \n but I can not find a way to make it wrap words. Words fly off the monitor... Shouldn't you be using the code tag instead? It's a semantically better option. However, the problem will still remain. Prabhath http://nidahas.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- http://www.ben-ward.co.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Style PRE with word wrap?
- Original Message - From: Patrick Lauke [EMAIL PROTECTED] To split hairs, though, the problem with pre seems to be that it appears very much like a presentational, rather than a semantic element. Any semantics seem to be inferred by the fact that the content is preformatted, which is a rather weak argument...by the same rationale, one might as well say that B, I, U etc are semantic. Heck, even the spec's definition 'The PRE element tells visual user agents that the enclosed text is preformatted.' http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/text.html#edef-PRE strikes me as purely presentational. Patrick --- Patrick, Surely, the fact that pre denotes 'preformatting' means that the formatting has occurred 'somewhere else' and not in the body of the html. So, in that sense, in what way is pre 'presentational' any more than all CSS is 'presentational? To take a simple example, if I set CSS rules in defining H1 characteristics, is using that h1 tag in the html 'purely presentational' or is it different to pre? If so, why is that? Why is one 'semantic', and not the other? Sometimes, pre strikes me just like a css declaration, except that you don't have to declare what the formatting is in the header :-) N.B. I'm not arguing here, I'm asking the question! Bob McClelland, Cornwall (U.K.) www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Style PRE with word wrap?
After some testing, I think it's best to stick to using pre for blocks of code. code won't preserve whitespace, so your code's not going to have any indenting unless you use a lot of non-breaking spaces which will inflate the size of your file and not to mention a real be a pain in the butt to add.
[WSG] Looking for a standards-compliant classified advert solution
Hello everyone, I am seraching for a standards-compliant classified ad solution. The best non-compliant solution I've found is this: http://www.geodesicsolutions.com/products/classifieds/classifieds_enterprise.htm Does anyone know of a standards-compliant solution that is comparable to this? Cheers David ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Looking for a standards-compliant classified advert solution [MOVE TO CMS LIST]
This is really a topic for the CMS list. Please carry on the conversation there. Regards, Peter -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Nicol Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 10:09 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Looking for a standards-compliant classified advert solution Hello everyone, I am seraching for a standards-compliant classified ad solution. The best non-compliant solution I've found is this: http://www.geodesicsolutions.com/products/classifieds/classifi eds_enterprise.htm Does anyone know of a standards-compliant solution that is comparable to this? Cheers David ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Style PRE with word wrap?
designer Surely, the fact that pre denotes 'preformatting' means that the formatting has occurred 'somewhere else' and not in the body of the html. So, in that sense, in what way is pre 'presentational' any more than all CSS is 'presentational? Aeh...I'm not quite following your reasoning here. But to pick up just on the last bit: CSS is *meant* for presentation, while HTML should only mark up *content*. That's where I see the problem: pre denotes how something looks, rather than what it is (which is the whole idea of semantic markup). To take a simple example, if I set CSS rules in defining H1 characteristics, is using that h1 tag in the html 'purely presentational' or is it different to pre? You'd use h1 only if the text you're marking up is an actual heading (unless you use h1 to mark up oh, i want that text nice and big, in which case you're abusing h1 for presentational purposes). But to reiterate: h1 has semantic connotations - the content it marks up is a heading. pre, on the other hand, does not provide any indication of what's inside, only how it's displayed. Sometimes, pre strikes me just like a css declaration, except that you don't have to declare what the formatting is in the header :-) And that's a bad thing; we want separation of content and presentation. Patrick Patrick H. Lauke Webmaster / University of Salford http://www.salford.ac.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] VIRUS!!!
Hi, Luckily, I thought it a little strange to receive an email from WSG informing me that I'd been removed from their mailing list. Especially as the email was from [EMAIL PROTECTED] and contained a download - which I ignored! I'm just wondering, as I use MailWasher Pro, I could bounce said email but would not then receive any pottentially legit emails from [EMAIL PROTECTED] Any ideas? -- There are two ways to write error-free programs. Only the third one works. -- http://www.sabif.info/ Well, that was fun! I foolishly trusted that the email was from the group ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) and that I had for some reason been suspended. So I opened the attachment and clicked the file! How foolish of me! If only I had expanded the width of the filename column. It even had a program like icon. I suppose it was kinda intelligent of them to include so many trailing spaces before the file extension so I'm semi impressed as I haven't been caught like that before. It automatically shuts down task manager when you try to open it too so it was real battle to try and end the process in the 1 second you have before it closes. It appears it was sent through the wsg mail server so maybe you guys should check if it is still in the queue somewhere? Assuming this wasn't only sent to me. Oh great, it also adds entries to your host file, shuts down Norton and turns off your firewall. Ohhh the pain! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jan Brasna Sent: Tuesday, 31 May 2005 1:57 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Definition lists for comments in blogs Foobar IS F.U.B.A.R. It isn't, it's only derived from it. See http://kb.iu.edu/data/aetq.html -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] display: table-row
Can somebody please tell me where I can find a chart that shows what browsers, if any, don't support display: table-row ? Thanks. -- ~john Just fair-weather words from a four-letter friend. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] information architecture
can someone give me a good explanation on what information acrhitecture is as it relates to web standards? I seen the word(s) used a lot lately. thanks, -- ::Bruce:: ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] inline-block support?
I was sure that there was some major browser not implementing display:inline-block, but in a quick test firefox 1.03, Opera 7 8 and even IE 6 are interpreting it correctly.I have yet to test on a mac, but that would seem to cover a lot of users. Anything I'm missing? Any recent documentation on browser support? thanks Kemie ...:| kemie |:... .:| www.monolinea.com |:.
[WSG] An alternative to FIR (Fahrner Image replacement)?
Hi all, I think I may have found a new way to enhance the original idea: The demo (scalable image): http://www.TJKDesign.com/articles/tip_5.asp The article: http://www.TJKDesign.com/articles/tip.asp Please report any error you may find. -- Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] information architecture
Bruce Gilbert can someone give me a good explanation on what information acrhitecture is as it relates to web standards? IA is a completely separate discipline, which - to be honest - has nothing to do with web standards (so don't be surprised if this thread gets closed fairly quickly). To over-simplify: IA looks at how to structure and organise your data/information; even more boiled down: what's your site's navigation like, what bits should you have on your pages, etc. IA crosses over and intertwines with usability. A quick google brings up a useful collection by Jesse James Garrett http://www.jjg.net/ia/ Patrick Patrick H. Lauke Webmaster / University of Salford http://www.salford.ac.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Style PRE with word wrap?
Thanks for the discussion folks...
Actually, because I can't really find a way to get by on the word-wrap
issue and also the use of indents (as they appear in the code) I've
done all of this in php without code or pre. It uses nbsp;'s for the
tabs (preg_replace(/\t/...). Aside from creating a few more regex
rules to deal with inputting slashes and the like, it seems to work
well enough.
What I'm doing is meant purely for presentation...it's a fast way for a
person to view a script and try to determine where a bug might live
(via the line number).
If you are curious this is what an output looks like (I'm not sure if
the nbsp;'s will encode when I send this email). If there is time I
might add some simple syntax highlighting rules to the script...
strong1/strongnbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;lt;?phpbr /
strong2/strongnbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;br /
strong3/strongnbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;function
rowNumber($i)br /
strong4/strongnbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;{br /
strong5/strongnbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;
nbsp;if ($i lt; 10) {br /
strong6/strongnbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;
nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;return
quot;lt;stronggt;$ilt;/stronggt;amp;nbsp;amp;nbsp;amp;nbsp;
amp;nbsp;amp;nbsp;quot;;br /
strong7/strongnbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;
nbsp;} elseif (($i gt;= 10) amp;amp; ($i lt;= 999)) {br /
strong8/strongnbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;
nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;return
quot;lt;stronggt;$ilt;/stronggt;amp;nbsp;amp;nbsp;amp;nbsp;
amp;nbsp;quot;;br /
strong9/strongnbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;
nbsp;} else {br /
strong10/strongnbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;
nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;return
quot;lt;stronggt;$ilt;/stronggt;amp;nbsp;amp;nbsp;amp;nbsp;
quot;;br /
strong11/strongnbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;}br
/
strong12/strongnbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;}br /
strong13/strongnbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;br
/
strong14/strongnbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;?gt;br /
On May 31, 2005, at 2:43 PM, Patrick Lauke wrote:
designer
Surely, the fact that pre denotes 'preformatting' means that the
formatting has occurred 'somewhere else' and not in the body
of the html.
So, in that sense, in what way is pre 'presentational' any
more than all
CSS is 'presentational?
Aeh...I'm not quite following your reasoning here. But to pick up
just on the last bit: CSS is *meant* for presentation, while HTML
should only mark up *content*. That's where I see the problem:
pre denotes how something looks, rather than what it is (which
is the whole idea of semantic markup).
To take a simple example, if I set
CSS rules in
defining H1 characteristics, is using that h1 tag in the
html 'purely
presentational' or is it different to pre?
You'd use h1 only if the text you're marking up is an actual
heading (unless you use h1 to mark up oh, i want that text nice
and big, in which case you're abusing h1 for presentational
purposes).
But to reiterate: h1 has semantic connotations - the content it
marks up is a heading. pre, on the other hand, does not provide
any indication of what's inside, only how it's displayed.
Sometimes, pre strikes me just like a css declaration,
except that you
don't have to declare what the formatting is in the header :-)
And that's a bad thing; we want separation of content and presentation.
Patrick
Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk
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Re: [WSG] display: table-row
Try these two: http://nanobox.chipx86.com/browser_support.php http://www.quirksmode.org/css/contents.html Russ Can somebody please tell me where I can find a chart that shows what browsers, if any, don't support display: table-row ? Thanks. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] An alternative to FIR (Fahrner Image replacement)?
Thierry Koblentz I think I may have found a new way to enhance the original idea: The demo (scalable image): http://www.TJKDesign.com/articles/tip_5.asp The article: http://www.TJKDesign.com/articles/tip.asp Maybe I'm missing the point here, but...have we just come full circle? If you're already adding IMG to the markup, what's the point of doing h1img src=/img/helloworld.gif alt= /Hello World/h1 and applying lots of CSS to hide the text, if a simple h1img src=/img/helloworld.gif alt=Hello World //h1 will do? Another idea behind the IR techniques is the flexibility of defining your images in the CSS, so that you can change them easily later by simply editing your stylesheet. Your technique hardcodes the images in, offering no such benefit (if the image's filename changes, you'll have to go back to all your HTML pages, rather than just editing your CSS). To make it flexible, you could use a dummy placeholder image in the HTML img src=/img/trans.gif / and use CSS background image for the real image, but then you may as well use any other element (such as a SPAN in...whatever IR technique I'm thinking of). Nice writeup, but this seems like 2 steps back, rather than a step forward, unless I'm missing something fundamental here... Patrick Patrick H. Lauke Webmaster / University of Salford http://www.salford.ac.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Style PRE with word wrap?
Vaska.WSG I've done all of this in php without code or pre. CODE is still the semantically correct element to wrap around this type of content, though... What I'm doing is meant purely for presentation...it's a fast way for a person to view a script and try to determine where a bug might live (via the line number). strong1/strongnbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;lt;?phpbr / strong2/strongnbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;br / strong3/strongnbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;function rowNumber($i)br / Presentational, indeed...why not something like (provided your code always starts from line 1, as support for CSS driven OL numbering other than the default seems a bit flaky, still) ol linbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;lt;?php/li linbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;/li linbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;function rowNumber($i)/li ... /ol or even (if we're a bit pedantic) ol licodenbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;lt;?php/code/li licodenbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;/code/li licodenbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;function rowNumber($i)/code/li ... /ol Patrick Patrick H. Lauke Webmaster / University of Salford http://www.salford.ac.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] An alternative to FIR (Fahrner Image replacement)?
Well, I don't fancy it much, I don't like the idea of presentational image in HTML... I personally use own solution[1], based partly on Dynatext[2]. Now I'm playing with Anatoly's DIR[3] [1] Can be seen on http://www.janbrasna.com/ or http://www.bonsoir.cz/ [2] http://alistapart.com/articles/dynatext [3] http://fecklessmind.com/main/5/definitive-solution-to-image-replacement -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] information architecture
Hi Bruce, I'd also add to what Patrick said and say that IA, usability, SEO, accessibility, user interface design, etc. are components of an even bigger picture called User Experience Design (the broadest map of Web development). Here's another good article by Garrett that covers some of these areas as defined by him: http://semanticstudios.com/publications/semantics/29.php I think it is important to understand how CSS/Accessability/Interface design fits into the grand scheme of Web development. That way you can identify your own strengths and weaknesses as a web developer and reach out where you feel you need to. Chris R. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Lauke Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 9:35 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] information architecture Bruce Gilbert can someone give me a good explanation on what information acrhitecture is as it relates to web standards? IA is a completely separate discipline, which - to be honest - has nothing to do with web standards (so don't be surprised if this thread gets closed fairly quickly). To over-simplify: IA looks at how to structure and organise your data/information; even more boiled down: what's your site's navigation like, what bits should you have on your pages, etc. IA crosses over and intertwines with usability. A quick google brings up a useful collection by Jesse James Garrett http://www.jjg.net/ia/ Patrick Patrick H. Lauke Webmaster / University of Salford http://www.salford.ac.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] inline-block support?
On 31 May 2005, at 10:42 pm, kemie guaida wrote: I was sure that there was some major browser not implementing display:inline-block, but in a quick test firefox 1.03, Opera 7 8 and even IE 6 are interpreting it correctly.I have yet to test on a mac, but that would seem to cover a lot of users. Anything I'm missing? Any recent documentation on browser support? Firefox (Gecko) does **not** support display:inline-block [1][2]. IE win and IE Mac, Safari, Opera do support this more or less, with best support coming from Safari, followed by Opera and IE Mac. IE Win only supports it reasonably on elements 'whose natural display is inline' to quote from a MS document. [1] sometimes display: -moz-inline-box is an alternative. Sometimes. [2] bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9458 Philippe --- Philippe Wittenbergh http://emps.l-c-n.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Style PRE with word wrap?
From: Ben
After some testing, I think it's best to stick to using pre for
blocks of code. code won't preserve whitespace, so your code's
not going to have any indenting unless you use a lot of non-breaking
spaces which will inflate the size of your file and not to mention
a real be a pain in the butt to add.
How about using the code element (since it IS code), and using
the following styles:
code {
display: block;
white-space: pre;
}
In my very quick test just now it seems to work in Firefox and IE,
so I'd assume it works pretty much anywhere. This gets you the best
of both worlds - the semantics of code and the presentation of
pre.
--
Martin Lambert
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [WSG] style sheet set up
Recently a CSS compressor utility has been making its rounds on the del.icio.us/Furl bookmark sites (and the like). Removing whitespace and comments from stylesheets, cramming them all into one file, and similar naive approaches to improving a site's response time are far less effective strategies than: 1. Selecting a high quality hosting company 2. Selecting the correct Web server software 3. Learning how to correctly configure your Web server 4. Making use of browser cache and expires headers 5. Using keep-alives and timeouts correctly 6. Using http compression 7. Using proxies By following these guidelines, you can eliminate all arguments about using multiple/modular CSS stylesheets. And in the process improve your own productivity, which is another expense that is so often overlooked. Web hosting companies are in the business of making money, and their business model is based on charging by bandwidth -- which is why they thrive on inefficiency, and why they don't want you to know about mod_gzip or even charge you extra to enable it. If, after following these steps and your site still loads slowly then the culprit is still mostly likely not multiple stylesheets, with or without comments in them. The top reasons include: 1. An overloaded shared host 2. A host that is lacking in a key resource such as memory 3. A poorly designed or unmanaged database 4. Poorly designed software such as scripting I have, from my own personal experience with sites that have all of the above issues, actually increased by far the size and number of CSS files that form the design of the site, and yet decreased the load time of the site by many orders of magnitude. I simply do not understand this argument that large, complex stylesheets are somehow to blame for sites that load slowly. I could also reduce bandwidth by eliminating the DOCTYPE declaration from the markup, and sending tag soup that doesn't close element tags or use quotes around attribute values. The browser doesn't care, right? And we all know the user doesn't care how the page is built as long as it loads, and they can find what they're looking for. As far as the scant few users out there with version 4 browsers, good luck with any major Web site these days. As far as dial-up users go, you have my sympathies. -- Douglas Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://loadaveragezero.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Style PRE with word wrap?
Vaska.WSG schrieb:
Actually, because I can't really find a way to get by on the word-wrap
issue and also the use of indents (as they appear in the code) I've
done all of this in php without code or pre. It uses nbsp;'s for the
tabs (preg_replace(/\t/...).
...
If you are curious this is what an output looks like ...
strong1/strongnbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;lt;?phpbr /
strong2/strongnbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;br /
strong3/strongnbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;function
rowNumber($i)br /
When you are using php, you can do this with
ol class=csshtml
li class=t01codelt;?php/code/li
li class=t02codefunction rowNumber($i)/code/li
...
/ol
and so on. I saw this on
http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200504/fixed_or_fluid_width_elastic/
and I think it makes much sense to put a source listing in a ol and
the tabulator as a class for li and the line code in code.
And it's flexible enough for indenting, hovering and so on. Now you can
style the classes and code for your needs.
For example, I don't use the line numbers for short code snippets in my
demo here:
http://www.satzansatz.de/cssd/forgottenbg.html
see what happens when the line wraps: the indention/tab takes effect.
( IMHO that's better than
pre { white-space: -moz-pre-wrap; white-space: pre-wrap;}
starts at the beginning of the line after a wrap)
Should be usable even when CSS is off.
Another way without php might be to leave the pre on the page
pre ... /pre
and to write a javascript injection routine for this to get
ol class=csshtml
li class=t01codelt;?php/code/li
...
/ol
automagically. Anyone sure can do this, might be practical for pages
with listings.
Ingo
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Re: [WSG] An alternative to FIR (Fahrner Image replacement)?
Jan Brasna wrote: Well, I don't fancy it much, I don't like the idea of presentational image in HTML... I personally use own solution[1], based partly on Dynatext[2]. Now I'm playing with Anatoly's DIR[3] http://fecklessmind.com/main/5/definitive-solution-to-image-replacement If the user browses with images disabled and large text-size, the heading is cut-off because of the overflow declaration. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying this method (that I mention at the bottom of the article as well as sIFR) is not one of the very best, I'm just saying that it has atleast this issue regarding accessibility. Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] An alternative to FIR (Fahrner Image replacement)?
Patrick Lauke wrote: Maybe I'm missing the point here, but...have we just come full circle? If you're already adding IMG to the markup, what's the point of doing h1img src=/img/helloworld.gif alt= /Hello World/h1 and applying lots of CSS to hide the text, if a simple h1img src=/img/helloworld.gif alt=Hello World //h1 will do? You mean even if images are disabled? That's true with some browsers, but not all. I believe FF and Safari do not show the alt attribute value at all when images are disabled. And in MSIE, this value is not displayed in relation to the user's settings regarding text-size. Another idea behind the IR techniques is the flexibility of defining your images in the CSS, so that you can change them easily later by simply editing your stylesheet. Your technique hardcodes the images in, offering no such benefit (if the image's filename changes, you'll have to go back to all your HTML pages, rather than just editing your CSS). To make it flexible, you could use a dummy placeholder image in the HTML img src=/img/trans.gif / and use CSS background image for the real image, but then you may as well use any other element (such as a SPAN in...whatever IR technique I'm thinking of). You're too quick to criticize the method ;-) Read the article and you'll see that's the way I do it already. The last example, the one I've posted, is only to show the scalable part (that would be rarely needed because of type face). BTW, what would be the advantage of using a span rather than an img element? And then using CSS declarations that may have SEO implications or, worst, create accessibility/usability issues? Nice writeup, but this seems like 2 steps back, rather than a step forward, unless I'm missing something fundamental here... I'm not saying it's fundamental, but I was after a fully accessible solution. ;-) Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] An alternative to FIR (Fahrner Image replacement)?
On 5/31/05, Thierry Koblentz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You mean even if images are disabled? That's true with some browsers, but not all. I believe FF and Safari do not show the alt attribute value at all when images are disabled. And in MSIE, this value is not displayed in relation to the user's settings regarding text-size. They do, they just don't show alt text pop up as a tooltip (because it was never meant to be implemented this way). pix http://www.pixeldiva.co.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] inline-block support?
This doesn't quite answer your question - but if you want to test on a MAC and don't have one I found a resource yesterday... http://danvine.com/icapture/ It's not as good as the others I suppose but it is free. Heather Original Message: - From: kemie guaida [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 15:42:01 +0200 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] inline-block support? I was sure that there was some major browser not implementing display:inline-block, but in a quick test firefox 1.03, Opera 7 8 and even IE 6 are interpreting it correctly.I have yet to test on a mac, but that would seem to cover a lot of users. Anything I'm missing? Any recent documentation on browser support? thanks Kemie ...:| kemie |:... .:| www.monolinea.com http://www.monolinea.com |:. mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] An alternative to FIR (Fahrner Image replacement)?
pixeldiva wrote:
You mean even if images are disabled?
That's true with some browsers, but not all. I believe FF and Safari
do not show the alt attribute value at all when images are disabled.
And in MSIE, this value is not displayed in relation to the user's
settings regarding text-size.
They do, they just don't show alt text pop up as a tooltip (because it
was never meant to be implemented this way).
Who's talking about tooltip? :-)
If I disable images in FF and Safari I do not get anything. Do you?
Regarding MSIE, what I meant is that the alt attribute value does not match
the text-size in relation to the heading.
And I'm not even talking about people using their own styles sheet, that
could include:
img {display:none}
What do you think these people would get?
Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com
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[WSG] Exporting inline CSS
Hi all, Quick question, I have a client with lots of HTML file that have inline CSS. (Over 300 docs) I am looking for some software, or way, that will export this inline css into a external css file. Or even just move it into a embedded style sheet. Thanks in advance for any help. Kind Regards Jacobus van Niekerk Creative Consultant web: http://www.catics.com/ | http://www.freelancecontractors.com tel: + 27 21 982 7805 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] An alternative to FIR (Fahrner Image replacement)?
Thierry Koblentz If I disable images in FF and Safari I do not get anything. Do you? If you disable images in FF through something like the WebDev extension, no. However, if you disable them the normal way (the way a user who doesn't want/need images would) via Tools Options Web Features Load Images, the ALT is displayed as intended. The same goes for broken images. And yes, in both cases the ALT is displayed in the correct text size. Unless I'm mistaken, the WebDev extension does a fairly brutal remove images from the DOM. A far more accurate test (if you don't want to change your global options) is to choose WebDev's Images Replace Images with Alt Attributes option. Can't vouch for Safari, but if it doesn't behave the way FF does, it's going against the spec and against User Agent Accessibility Guidelines. Patrick Patrick H. Lauke Webmaster / University of Salford http://www.salford.ac.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] An alternative to FIR (Fahrner Image replacement)?
On 5/31/05, Thierry Koblentz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Who's talking about tooltip? :-)
If I disable images in FF and Safari I do not get anything. Do you?
Yes. I do. I get the alt text where it's been applied.
Regarding MSIE, what I meant is that the alt attribute value does not match
the text-size in relation to the heading.
Agreed. I wasn't remarking on MSIE at all.
And I'm not even talking about people using their own styles sheet, that
could include:
img {display:none}
What do you think these people would get?
That would depend which technology they use to browse.
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Re: [WSG] An alternative to FIR (Fahrner Image replacement)?
Patrick Lauke wrote: Unless I'm mistaken, the WebDev extension does a fairly brutal remove images from the DOM. A far more accurate test (if you don't want to change your global options) is to choose WebDev's Images Replace Images with Alt Attributes option. Can't vouch for Safari, but if it doesn't behave the way FF does, it's going against the spec and against User Agent Accessibility Guidelines. You're right I was not using FF Web Features, but the WebDev toolbar. So it's true that people who would use the built-in feature would get the alt attribute value. But still! What about Safari and MSIE users? All UAs have flaws. IMO, our business is to deal with them rather than using the specs as an excuse for not implementing the most accessible solutions. Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Style PRE with word wrap?
I think this will do the trick. It's a little odd, and I'll have to
test this out more, doing a preg_match_all to determine how many \t's
there are (so we know what class='tab$number' to use), but I think in
most instances this will suffice.
Thanks for pointing this solution out...v
On May 31, 2005, at 4:41 PM, Ingo Chao wrote:
Vaska.WSG schrieb:
Actually, because I can't really find a way to get by on the
word-wrap issue and also the use of indents (as they appear in the
code) I've done all of this in php without code or pre. It uses
nbsp;'s for the tabs (preg_replace(/\t/...). ...
If you are curious this is what an output looks like ...
strong1/strongnbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;lt;?phpbr /
strong2/strongnbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;br /
strong3/strongnbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;function
rowNumber($i)br /
When you are using php, you can do this with
ol class=csshtml
li class=t01codelt;?php/code/li
li class=t02codefunction rowNumber($i)/code/li
...
/ol
and so on. I saw this on
http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200504/
fixed_or_fluid_width_elastic/
and I think it makes much sense to put a source listing in a ol and
the tabulator as a class for li and the line code in code.
And it's flexible enough for indenting, hovering and so on. Now you
can style the classes and code for your needs.
For example, I don't use the line numbers for short code snippets in
my demo here:
http://www.satzansatz.de/cssd/forgottenbg.html
see what happens when the line wraps: the indention/tab takes effect.
( IMHO that's better than
pre { white-space: -moz-pre-wrap; white-space: pre-wrap;}
starts at the beginning of the line after a wrap)
Should be usable even when CSS is off.
Another way without php might be to leave the pre on the page
pre ... /pre
and to write a javascript injection routine for this to get
ol class=csshtml
li class=t01codelt;?php/code/li
...
/ol
automagically. Anyone sure can do this, might be practical for pages
with listings.
Ingo
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Re: [WSG] *DETECTED* Online User Violation
Just got that same email. Thanks to all on the list for alerting. I deleted without opening the file that was attached. ByteDreams - Original Message - From: john [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 5:25 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] *DETECTED* Online User Violation I've been receiving a few messages like this, but from my [EMAIL PROTECTED] so it looks like I'm emailing myself. It always says more info is attached and there's always a zipped attachment included. ~john Just fair-weather words from a four-letter friend. on 5/31/2005 10:06 AM Rick Faaberg said the following: On 5/31/05 1:47 AM [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] sent this out: We regret to inform you that your account has been suspended due to the violation of our site policy, more info is attached. Detected what? What did I do so wrong? Man, I thought I was a good citizen here. Thank you, Rick ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] An alternative to FIR (Fahrner Image replacement)?
pixeldiva wrote:
Yes. I do. I get the alt text where it's been applied.
As Patrick pointed out, you must be using the built-in function of FF, but
it does not work that way in Safari (atleast in v.1.2.4).
Regarding MSIE, what I meant is that the alt attribute value does
not match the text-size in relation to the heading.
Agreed. I wasn't remarking on MSIE at all.
We're talking about accessibility (at least I am), so I'd say that leaving
some UAs out of the discussion is kind of a problem ;-)
And I'm not even talking about people using their own styles sheet,
that could include:
img {display:none}
What do you think these people would get?
That would depend which technology they use to browse.
I don't understand what you mean by technology.
I'm talking about using a simple style sheet to set one's own preferences to
take over the author's styles. Most of the time, I'd say it is to hide
images, enlarge text-size, add contrast to the documents, etc.
Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com
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Re: [WSG] Style PRE with word wrap?
Hi Patrick, - Original Message - From: Patrick Lauke [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 1:43 PM Subject: RE: [WSG] Style PRE with word wrap? But to reiterate: h1 has semantic connotations - the content it marks up is a heading. pre, on the other hand, does not provide any indication of what's inside, only how it's displayed. -- Yes, absolutely. BUT what I'm harping on about here is that if you set your basic font in the body (or somewhere up there :-) you could then use h1 in the html without qualifying it in any way with CSS, so long as you are happy with the way the browser displays it. (and it's not IE, of course!). You probably wouldn't do this, but it illustrates the point. The h1 says 'this is a heading' no more, no less, and the pre says 'this is some preformatted text', no more, no less. Neither really tells you 'exactly' what it's going to look like. OK, you 'expect' the h1 stuff to be larger (which it isn't always) and you 'expect' the pre to appear in Courier font with white space etc, but you personally haven't defined either. The 'formatting' is done elsewhere (in this case, by the browser's interpretation, NOT in the html markup, nor indeed in the CSS in this example. So I can't see the difference. OK, I'm not going to labour this or do it to death, but I can't grasp this. :-) Bob McClelland, Cornwall (U.K.) www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Help Me Switch From Tables to CSS Divs
I know so many people have asked for this and at one point i left the emails on the topic in my inbox but then i deleted them. I need to know how to switch from tables to divs. I have a 2 column table and want to switch it into css using divs. I know it has to do with the float tag in css but i tired and didn't get it to work. Please help. Thanks-- Best Regards, Olajide Olaolorun @ www.olajideolaolorun.com...ain't nothing impossible unless you make it...
Re: [WSG] Help Me Switch From Tables to CSS Divs
Hi, deconstruct and redo: http://www.456bereastreet.com/lab/developing_with_web_standards/ csslayout/2-col/ G/L C On May 31, 2005, at 12:11 PM, Olajide Olaolorun wrote: I know so many people have asked for this and at one point i left the emails on the topic in my inbox but then i deleted them. I need to know how to switch from tables to divs. I have a 2 column table and want to switch it into css using divs. I know it has to do with the float tag in css but i tired and didn't get it to work. Please help. Thanks -- Best Regards, Olajide Olaolorun @ www.olajideolaolorun.com ...ain't nothing impossible unless you make it... ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] An alternative to FIR (Fahrner Image replacement)?
Thierry Koblentz wrote: Patrick Lauke wrote: img src=/img/trans.gif / and use CSS background image for the real image, but then you may as well use any other element (such as a SPAN in...whatever IR technique I'm thinking of). BTW, what would be the advantage of using a span rather than an img element? And then using CSS declarations that may have SEO implications or, worst, create accessibility/usability issues? Ok, the IR technique I was referring to (now that I've checked) was the Gilder/Levin method http://www.mezzoblue.com/tests/revised-image-replacement/#gilderlevin which uses a span, and my point was: if you're using CSS to scale and apply background to what is essentially an empty/transparent image (a 1x1 transparent gif or whatever), then why use an image at all and not settle for a completely empty, neutral element like a SPAN (as happens in the Gilder/Levin technique)? Either way, you're adding extra markup to your HTML, so you may as well use something empty. -- Patrick H. Lauke _ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] An alternative to FIR (Fahrner Image replacement)?
Patrick H. Lauke wrote: Ok, the IR technique I was referring to (now that I've checked) was the Gilder/Levin method http://www.mezzoblue.com/tests/revised-image-replacement/#gilderlevin Believe it or not, but I didn't know about that one ;-) Identical approach in term of CSS, but - as you know - very different regarding markup. which uses a span, and my point was: if you're using CSS to scale and apply background to what is essentially an empty/transparent image (a 1x1 transparent gif or whatever), then why use an image at all and not How do you make the background image of this neutral element scale? settle for a completely empty, neutral element like a SPAN (as happens in the Gilder/Levin technique)? Either way, you're adding extra markup to your HTML, so you may as well use something empty. The Gilder/Levin method relies only on CSS to display the image, if there is a need to show both elements in the heading the solution fails if the document is unstyled. Also, an empty span is nothing more than an empty span. I believe an image with meaningful title and alt attributes may be of better use. Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] A way to skip a Flash-intro if Flash is not installed?
Somewhat belatedly -- the Flash-detection JavaScript I recommend is the Moock FPI script, see http://www.moock.org/webdesign/flash/detection/moockfpi/ a lot of work has gone into it and it has a very detailed bug-fix history, which gives me confidence, although it doesn't seem to have been updated in a year or so. Have You Validated Your Code? John Horner(+612 / 02) 8333 3488 Developer, ABC Kids Onlinehttp://www.abc.net.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Style PRE with word wrap?
Vaska.WSG wrote: I've been reading around (via Google) and I find others with similar problems but no solution. Is there a solution to this? Whenever I present code in a page, I use something similar to the method Simon Willison put forward by in July 2002: http://development.incutio.com/simon/numbered-code-experiment.html Works for me. I've yet to find a better method (although if someone has one...) Cheers Lachlan ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Style PRE with word wrap?
Ahh, cool. Looks like the white-space property is supported well enough.
http://www.westciv.com/style_master/academy/browser_support/element_type.html
I'll go back to using code for code blocks then. :)
Thanks for pointing out the property, Martin.
BenOn 5/31/05, Martin J. Lambert [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
From: Ben After some testing, I think it's best to stick to using pre for blocks of code. code won't preserve whitespace, so your code's not going to have any indenting unless you use a lot of non-breaking
spaces which will inflate the size of your file and not to mention a real be a pain in the butt to add.How about using the code element (since it IS code), and usingthe following styles:
code {display: block;white-space: pre;}In my very quick test just now it seems to work in Firefox and IE,so I'd assume it works pretty much anywhere. This gets you the best
of both worlds - the semantics of code and the presentation ofpre.--Martin Lambert[EMAIL PROTECTED]**
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RE: [WSG] Exporting inline CSS
Quick question, I have a client with lots of HTML file that have inline CSS. (Over 300 docs) I am looking for some software, or way, that will export this inline css into a external css file. Or even just move it into a embedded style sheet. Am not aware on any package that would do this for you, but it should be quite easy to set up a Regular Expression routine to strip all style='foo' content from a page. Regards Scott Swabey General Manager Lafinboy Productions :: website design :: website development :: graphic design e [EMAIL PROTECTED] t +61 (0)415 193 126 w www.lafinboy.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Exporting inline CSS
Scott Swabey (Lafinboy Productions) wrote: Am not aware on any package that would do this for you, but it should be quite easy to set up a Regular Expression routine to strip all style='foo' content from a page. The harder part would be to have it not just strip out the styles, but externalise them while keeping them working in the final output. The brute force approach would be to just assign a unique, random ID to each element where a style attribute is found, then create a matching, specific entry in the new external CSS. The - hypothetical - right way would be for a parser to analyse the entire document structure, work out how styles can be applied generically (all paragraphs inside this div have a certain style, so create a rule for div#blah p rather than individual style rules), and still find the odd few special cases and assign a class. Sounds like AI to me...even if you can find a halfway automated system, I doubt that the final result would be any more satisfactory than just leaving the style attributes in the markup, I'm afraid... -- Patrick H. Lauke _ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Two questions: SEO document structure and font resizing
Hey there guys, I'll get straight to it - here's the site I'm referring to - http://www.travelinsurancecompared.com.au/ 1. Search engine optimisation and document structure The current document structure is: header nav content sidebar footer will it get more love from google if I make the content container appear first in the source code? So it would be: content sidebar header nav footer --- 2. Font resizing The navigation on the site is pretty locked in and I had to use absolute font sizes (px) rather than relative which I normally use. However, the fonts still resize in mozilla browsers and some others. I know this is a heretical question - but how do I stop it? Look forward to your learned responses,Benvolio --Ben WebsterConversant Studioswww.conversantstudios.com.au
RE: [WSG] Exporting inline CSS
Quick question, I have a client with lots of HTML file that have inline CSS. (Over 300 docs) I am looking for some software, or way, that will export this inline css into a external css file. Or even just move it into a embedded style sheet. Am not aware on any package that would do this for you, but it should be quite easy to set up a Regular Expression routine to strip all style='foo' content from a page. I think the question related to style blocks in the HTML, not style= attributes. Surely the question is, are we sure the CSS is all the same for all those 300 files? If it is, it's trivial to do it with regular expression-type searching as you say. If not, it could be very tricky. Have You Validated Your Code? John Horner(+612 / 02) 8333 3488 Developer, ABC Kids Onlinehttp://www.abc.net.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Exporting inline CSS
If the HTML files were valid XHTML it would be a relatively easy job extracting the styles using XSLT.On 6/1/05, Patrick H. Lauke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Scott Swabey (Lafinboy Productions) wrote: Am not aware on any package that would do this for you, but it should be quite easy to set up a Regular _expression_ routine to strip all style='foo' content from a page.The harder part would be to have it not just strip out the styles, but externalise them while keeping them working in the final output. Thebrute force approach would be to just assign a unique, random ID to eachelement where a style attribute is found, then create a matching, specific entry in the new external CSS. The - hypothetical - right waywould be for a parser to analyse the entire document structure, work outhow styles can be applied generically (all paragraphs inside this div have a certain style, so create a rule for div#blah p rather thanindividual style rules), and still find the odd few special cases andassign a class.Sounds like AI to me...even if you can find a halfway automated system, I doubt that the final result would be any more satisfactory than justleaving the style attributes in the markup, I'm afraid...--Patrick H. Lauke_ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com**The discussion list forhttp://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help**
Re: [WSG] Two questions: SEO document structure and font resizing
You cant stop font resizing in mozilla, and thank goodness for that :-) -- Neerav Bhatt http://www.bhatt.id.au Need a Sydney based web standards contractor? You need my services. Recent projects for iFocus, Glassonion, Freshweb, Cogentis http://www.bhatt.id.au/blog/ - Ramblings Thoughts http://bookcrossing.com/referral/neerav Conversant Studios wrote: Hey there guys, I'll get straight to it - here's the site I'm referring to - http://www.travelinsurancecompared.com.au/ 2. Font resizing The navigation on the site is pretty locked in and I had to use absolute font sizes (px) rather than relative which I normally use. However, the fonts still resize in mozilla browsers and some others. I know this is a heretical question - but how do I stop it? Look forward to your learned responses, Benvolio -- Ben Webster Conversant Studios www.conversantstudios.com.au ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Exporting inline CSS
G'day Quick question, I have a client with lots of HTML file that have inline CSS. (Over 300 docs) I am looking for some software, or way, that will export this inline css into a external css file. Or even just move it into a embedded style sheet. Replacing the styles (whether style blocks in the head of the documents or inline as attributes) will be difficult. Removing them should be simple could be done with Macromedia Dreamweaver. It can go through a whole site, find all elements with a style attribute, and remove the attribute. If each doc has a style element in the head section, you could use the same method to replace it to use an imported style sheet. Biggest question is: how consistent is the site's layout? Will it work with an overall style sheet or two? Regards -- Bert Doorn, Better Web Design http://www.betterwebdesign.com.au/ Fast-loading, user-friendly websites ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Exporting inline CSS
Quick question, I have a client with lots of HTML file that have inline CSS. (Over 300 docs) Good Lord, what was that previous author thinking!?? There's no escaping this problem - you're just gonna have to start from scratch. Don't waste your time with export/import methods. MATTHOM matthom.com/ On 5/31/05, Jacobus van Niekerk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, Quick question, I have a client with lots of HTML file that have inline CSS. (Over 300 docs) I am looking for some software, or way, that will export this inline css into a external css file. Or even just move it into a embedded style sheet. Thanks in advance for any help. Kind Regards Jacobus van Niekerk Creative Consultant web: http://www.catics.com/ | http://www.freelancecontractors.com tel: + 27 21 982 7805 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] inline-block support?
On 5/31/05, kemie guaida [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I was sure that there was some major browser not implementing display:inline-block, but in a quick test firefox 1.03, Opera 7 8 and even IE 6 are interpreting it correctly.I have yet to test on a mac, but that would seem to cover a lot of users. Anything I'm missing? Any recent documentation on browser support? I've never really thought about it before, but now I'm intrigued... what specific, real-world problem could be solved by the use of display:inline-block? Thanks, K. -- Kay Smoljak http://kay.smoljak.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] An alternative to FIR (Fahrner Image replacement)?
On 1 Jun 2005, at 12:32 am, Thierry Koblentz wrote: If I disable images in FF and Safari I do not get anything. Do you? The answer for Firefox was already given. For Safari (using 1.3), with images disabled, I get a grey outline where the image should be, and **sometimes** the alt text displayed. Like: if it fixes inside the bounding box for the image. If the text is too long, (ie a long long alt text) on a 20px by 20px image, the alt text is not displayed. Not Good. When the alt text is displayed, it takes size and font-style from the context. Philippe --- Philippe Wittenbergh http://emps.l-c-n.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] inline-block support?
what specific, real-world problem could be solved by the use of display:inline-block? Anything where display: block + float: left is used at once (eg. navigation, definition list layouts etc.) -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] An alternative to FIR (Fahrner Image replacement)?
Philippe Wittenbergh wrote: For Safari (using 1.3), with images disabled, I get a grey outline where the image should be, and **sometimes** the alt text displayed. Like: if it fixes inside the bounding box for the image. If the text is too long, (ie a long long alt text) on a 20px by 20px image, the alt text is not displayed. Not Good. Thanks for the info Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] information architecture
There is a relationship between the two in that a good IA will think beyond the page to the overall structure of the information, including the semantics of the content and relationships between content items. Good IAs care deeply about web standards and love the flexibility that designing with web standards allows ;) Bruce (and others) - let me know privately if you want to know something more specific about IA. Donna Patrick Lauke wrote: IA is a completely separate discipline, which - to be honest - has nothing to do with web standards (so don't be surprised if this thread gets closed fairly quickly). To over-simplify: IA looks at how to structure and organise your data/information; even more boiled down: what's your site's navigation like, what bits should you have on your pages, etc. IA crosses over and intertwines with usability. -- Donna Maurer e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] blog: http://maadmob.net/donna/blog/ AIM: maadmob ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Two questions: SEO document structure and font resizing
As long as you keep everything lean and semantic, the content order won't have a significant affect on Google indexing. However, the closer the main page header is to the body tag, the more important it is perceived by search engines, and more likely that the page will come up in searches. Since you'll be having this (probably) h2 in the main content area, having it at the top does help. It is always best to keep the content first for a host of other reasons as well, accessibility being the most important. Prabhath http://nidahas.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] inline-block support?
On 1 Jun 2005, at 10:46 am, Jan Brasna wrote: what specific, real-world problem could be solved by the use of display:inline-block? Anything where display: block + float: left is used at once (eg. navigation, definition list layouts etc Not really - remember that 'inline-block' remains an *inline* element, and behaves as such in the whole block formatting context. From the specs [quote] This value causes an element to generate a block box, which itself is flowed as a single inline box, similar to a replaced element. The inside of an inline-block is formatted as a block box, and the element itself is formatted as an inline replaced element. [/quote] http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/visuren.html#propdef-display But yes it can be useful for cases like everybody's favourite horizontal navigation list. I used it often specifically for IE Mac in those cases. (and note: inline-block is not supported at all by IE 5.0 Win, if one need to support that browser) Philippe --- Philippe Wittenbergh http://emps.l-c-n.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] inline-block support?
Not really - remember that 'inline-block' remains an *inline* element, Sure, sorry for not mentioning it. inline-block is not supported at all by IE 5.0 Win And Gecko AFAIK. BTW CSS3 has quite interesting display: ... capabilities. -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Two questions: SEO document structure and font resizing
On Tue, 31 May 2005 20:58:49 -0400, Conversant Studios
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hey there guys,
I'll get straight to it - here's the site I'm referring to -
http://www.travelinsurancecompared.com.au/
...
2. Font resizing
The navigation on the site is pretty locked in and I had to use absolute
font sizes (px) rather than relative which I normally use. However, the
fonts still resize in mozilla browsers and some others.
I know this is a heretical question - but how do I stop it?
Add this at the very top of your style sheet:
body, html {display: none!important;}
Look forward to your learned responses,
Benvolio
Regards,
David Laakso
--
http://www.dlaakso.com/
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[WSG] positioning problem in CSS nav roll-over
Hello,
I'm trying to make CSS-based roll-over images for navigation, but I get
a 1px difference between Firefox and IE. Because of the nature of the
graphic - a horizontal line - it is quite noticeable.
example here:
http://quagma.net/testing/lakeside/contact.html
(at the moment the #panels {margin: -86px etc...} controls the height.
see style sheet for more info)
Anyone have any suggestions?
Regards,
Cameron.
The HTML:
!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.1//EN
http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml11/DTD/xhtml11.dtd;
html xmlns=http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml; xml:lang=en-AU
head
titleLakeside Motor Inn - Contact/title
link rel=stylesheet href=default.css media=screen /
meta http-equiv=content-type content=text/html; charset=utf-8 /
meta name=keywords content=Contact /
meta name=description content=Contact details for Lakeside Motor
Inn /
/head
body
div id=container
pa href=# title=homeimg src=images/logo.png alt=Lakeside
logo //a/p
ul id=panels
li id=panel1ba href=contact.hml title=contactcontact/a/li
li id=panel2ba href=rooms.hml title=roomsrooms/a/li
li id=panel3ba href=facilities.hml
title=facilitiesfacilities/a/li
li id=panel4ba href=tariffs.hml title=tariffstariffs/a/li
li id=panel5ba href=restaurant.hml
title=restaurantrestaurant/a/li
li id=panel6ba href=attractions.hml
title=attractionsattractions/a/li
/ul
div id=maincontent
h1 id=contactheadContact Us/h1
ptjrlkg lkg/p
!-- End mainconent div //--
/div
/div
/body
/html
the css:
img {
border: 0;
}
#header p {
margin: 0;
padding: 0;
}
a:link {
color: #0066CC;
text-decoration: none;
font-weight: bold;
}
a:hover {
color: #CC3366;
font-weight: bold;
text-decoration: none;
}
a:visited {
font-weight: bold;
color: #CC99CC;
text-decoration: none;
}
a:active {
font-weight: bold;
color: #FF3366;
text-decoration: none;
}
/* thanks to A List Apart */
#panels {
width: 500px;
height: 65px;
background: url(images/nav_off.png);
margin: -86px 2px 10px 137px;
padding: 0;
position: relative;
text-indent: -9000px;
}
#panels li {margin: 0; padding: 0; list-style: none; position: absolute;
top: 0;}
#panels li, #panels a {text-decoration: none; height: 65px; display: block;}
#panel1b {left: 0; width: 83px;}
#panel2b {left: 83px; width: 84px;}
#panel3b {left: 167px; width: 84px;}
#panel4b {left: 251px; width: 83px;}
#panel5b {left: 334px; width: 84px;}
#panel6b {left: 418px; width: 83px;}
#panel1b a:hover {background: transparent url(images/nav_on.png) 0
no-repeat;}
#panel2b a:hover {background: transparent url(images/nav_on.png) -83px
no-repeat;}
#panel3b a:hover {background: transparent url(images/nav_on.png) -167px
no-repeat;}
#panel4b a:hover {background: transparent url(images/nav_on.png) -251px
no-repeat;}
#panel5b a:hover {background: transparent url(images/nav_on.png) -334px
no-repeat;}
#panel6b a:hover {background: transparent url(images/nav_on.png) -418px
no-repeat;}
#container {
width: 639px;
background: ;
margin: auto;
}
#maincontent {
padding: 0 0 0 12px;
}
#contacthead {
background: url(images/contact_head.png) no-repeat;
padding: 1em 0 0 0;
text-indent: -9000px;
}
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