Re: [WSG] simplyaccessible.org
Hi Graham, Producing a .doc may seem incongruous, but it is just one of around 150 documents covering all Telstra's online standards including wap, platform, styleguides information architecture etc. Yes, apologies for even alluding to that kind of hackneyed response. You now have me distracted by all the interesting info at http://www.telstra.com.au/standards so thanks again. Great to even have access to this kind of resource if only to point out to clients. Nick ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Safari FOUC was site check: liquid.rdpdesign.com
On 12 Oct 2005, at 11:58 am, Steve Ferguson wrote: It does appear that you've killed the Safari FOUC. You should document this as appears to be somewhat of a mystery. I'll second this. I haven't followed the discussion, so it is hard to check for a 'before' and 'after'. Philippe --- Philippe Wittenbergh http://emps.l-c-n.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Safari FOUC was site check: liquid.rdpdesign.com
On 10/11/05, Steve Ferguson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It does appear that you've killed the Safari FOUC.You should document this as appears to be somewhat of a mystery.Nicely Done!Steve Ferguson - http://illumit.com On Oct 10, 2005, at 11:31 PM, Christian Montoya wrote: Safari FOUC**The discussion list forhttp://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help** Where would I document this? -- - C Montoyardpdesign.com ... liquid.rdpdesign.com ... montoya.rdpdesign.com
Re: [WSG] Safari FOUC was site check: liquid.rdpdesign.com
On Wed, 12 Oct 2005 02:52:19 -0400, Christian Montoya wrote: Where would I document this? Do you have a blog? Write an article there. If not, just add an article page to your website. Thinking bigger? Write it up for AListApart, or Evolt or... so many places. Even just write up the details and post it here - its archived, so its a start. There are lots of options :) warmly, Lea -- Lea de Groot Elysian Systems - http://elysiansystems.com/ Brisbane, Australia ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Safari FOUC was site check: liquid.rdpdesign.com
On 12 Oct 2005, at 3:52 pm, Christian Montoya wrote: Where would I document this? Blog ? Own website ? You could start here as well, or add an item to the CSS-D Wiki: http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=FrontPage Philippe --- Philippe Wittenbergh http://emps.l-c-n.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Safari FOUC was site check: liquid.rdpdesign.com
On 10/12/05, Philippe Wittenbergh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 12 Oct 2005, at 3:52 pm, Christian Montoya wrote: Where would I document this?Blog ? Own website ?You could start here as well, or add an item to the CSS-D Wiki: http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=FrontPagePhilippe---Philippe Wittenberghhttp://emps.l-c-n.com/** The discussion list forhttp://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help**Oh, lol, my blog is in my signature XDI just didn't realize I had done anything blog worthy... thanks everyone, I'll get on that. -- - C Montoyardpdesign.com ... liquid.rdpdesign.com ... montoya.rdpdesign.com
Re: [WSG] :after/:before used for layout
:after generated content cannot receive some CSS properties, including 'position', 'float', list properties, and table properties. That's CSS2. Can't find that line in CSS2.1. That's possible, I quoted this from PIE thus I don't know whether it was ment as a normative restriction, or practical (implementation) restriction. Thanks for completion. -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Web developers Voice recognition software
(Might be useful to someone else on this list too, otherwise apologies.) http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/speech/ Apple’s Speech Recognition and Speech Synthesis Technologies now give speech-savvy applications the power to carry out your voice commands and even speak back to you in plain English. -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Web developers Voice recognition software (off-campus)
I will be off-campus from Wednesday, October 12 through Friday, October 14. I will return to campus on Monday, October 17. For technical assistance, or if this is an urgent web-related matter contact the ITS Helpdesk at [EMAIL PROTECTED], or call 612-659-6600. Otherwise, I will reply to your message when I return to campus. Gary ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] List with hover background images
Listers...
Here is the code I am using on a list of links:
#content ul.linklist{list-style-type:none; margin:0 0 20px 0;}
#content ul.linklist li{padding:0 0 .3em 40px;}
#content ul.linklist a{display:block; padding:0 0 0 20px; margin:0 0 0
-20px;}
#content ul.linklist a:hover{display:block;
background:url(../images/linklist_rollarrows.gif) top left no-repeat;
padding:0 0 0 20px; margin:0 0 0 -20px;}
div id=content
snip
ul class=linklist
lia href=#ASA DirectsupSM/sup/a/lili
a href=#FASTFUNDsupSM/sup/a/lili
a href=#Guarantee Only Processing/a/lili
a href=#CommonLine Processing/a/lili
a href=#ELM (Education Loan Management)/a/lili
a href=#Sallie Mae Laureate/a/lili
a href=#ASA's Shadow Program/a/lili
a href=#Mapping Your Future/a/lili
a href=#Origination and Operational Consulting/a/lili
a href=#e.clips Signup and Article Archives/a/lili
a href=#Preferred Lender List Services/a/lili
a href=#PLUS on the Web/a/lili
a href=#PLUS on the Phone or Fax/a/lili
a href=#E-signature (Electronic Signature)/a/li
/ul
/div
In some browsers however, my links work across the page, beyond the text,
even over blank space like this:
|-link text--| hover and link work here
The display:block is most likely the cause, right? But I can't figure out
how to achieve another way what I am after with the links, which is to
have the hover bg image _and_ have the links indented the same if they
break to 2 lines.
Any thoughts?
TIA
--
Tom Livingston
Senior Multimedia Artist
Media Logic
www.mlinc.com
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
Re: [WSG] List with hover background images
Float the list, or the containing div, so that the width won't stretch across the page? That should contain the hover effect. -- - C Montoyardpdesign.com ... liquid.rdpdesign.com ... montoya.rdpdesign.com
[WSG] Need more help Was: [css-d] List with hover background images
On Wed, 12 Oct 2005 10:48:05 -0400, Tom Livingston
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
|-link text--| hover and link work here
OK I solved the above issue by using display:table-cell and feeding WinIE
display:block inCCs.
But the same fix will not work for this:
#faphomecontent p{margin-right:25px; width:90%;}
#faphomecontent a.subcatlink{display:block; padding-right:3em; color:#999;
background:url(../images/fap/linkone_off.jpg) top right no-repeat;
text-decoration:none;}
#faphomecontent a.subcatlink span{font-family:Trebuchet MS, Arial, Sans,
Helvetica, sans-serif; color:#E5931F; font-style:italic; font-size:1.1em;
text-decoration:none;}
#faphomecontent a.subcatlink:hover{display:block; padding-right:3em;
color:#000; background:url(../images/fap/linkone_on.jpg) top right
no-repeat; text-decoration:none;}
#faphomecontent a.subcatlink:hover span{font-family:Trebuchet MS, Arial,
Sans, Helvetica, sans-serif; color:#9f5e27; font-style:italic;
font-size:1.1em; text-decoration:none;}
div id=faphomecontent
h2 class=subhomehead:: Professionals/h2
pa href=# class=subcatlinkspanLoan Management/spanbr /
Link copy goes here. /a/p
/div
No lists involved with this. All I want is link text with a backgnd image
to show on hover. And ONLY the text should hover/link. The above again has
active blank space within the href... yes, because of display:block; but
I can't get the effect of text-pushed-over-to-allow-for-hover-bg-image w/o
it!
Am I nutz?? Am I asking the impossible?
That window ledge is looking pretty good right now. I'm on the fourth
floor..
--
Tom Livingston
Senior Multimedia Artist
Media Logic
www.mlinc.com
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
Re: [WSG] DW 8 standards
We tested DW8 recently, Contribute 3 also uses this latest renderer. Its CSS support is a big improvement over the previous version. It still has a way to go yet. We picked up some issues with negative margins and other issues regarding floats. But if you keep these little issues in mind when building a site you can actually get pretty good results in Contribute. ( not as many notcieable rendering problems ) and reduce the number of why does it look all weird in Contribute phone calls. Cheers CB
[WSG] Chinese food and web standards
Hi, I have a lovely new em-based page on Chinese food that works fine in practically everything apart from Netscape 6.2 and Konqueror 3.05. My initial template is at http://www.chopstixmedia.com/dev/layout-test.html Please accept my apologies if it makes you hungry. Looking at my current website stats, my visitors aren't using either of the afore-mentioned browsers. So, I guess I have two questions: 1) Is it acceptable to go live with a layout that doesn't work with either of these two browsers? (I notice that a number of prominent web standardista websites have done so) 2) Any there are useful site reporting bugs with these two browsers plus how to fix them? Many thanks indeed. All the best, -- Ian ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Is a colon after a form label necessary?
Title: Is a colon after a form label necessary? We are establishing Web standards for forms and are debating this. Heres what I have gleaned based on reading the references cited below. 1. Colons are hard to see on a screen. (Reference 1.) 2. W3C does not state a requirement for a colon after a label. 3. WAI recommends identifying a label with a LABEL tag and does not mention using a colon. (Reference 3.) 4. 508 Standards Information for Standards does not mention using a colon for labels. 5. Microsoft Active Accessibility (MSAA) software might require the colon. (Reference 2.) 6. According to Microsoft, screen-review utilities might use a colon to identify a control. (Reference 4.) I suspect that using a colon after a label is a carry over from paper forms. Microsoft may need the colon. I do not know what screen review utilities are. Are they html validators? Are they accessibility validators? What say you all? --- Reference 1. William Horton in his book Designing and Writing Online Documentation recommends avoiding colons and semicolons because they are hard to distinguish on a screen. --- Reference 2. Wright State University http://www.wright.edu/web/access/standard_n.html (n) When electronic forms are designed to be completed on-line, the form shall allow people using assistive technology to access the information, field elements, and functionality required for completion and submission of the form, including all directions and cues. WSU Web Accessibility Guidelines WSU Information Ensure that the user may interact with the form with a preferred input (or output) device, such as a mouse, keyboard, voice or head wand. If a form control can only be activated with a mouse or other pointing device, someone who is using the page without sight, with voice input, or with only a keyboard will not be able to use the form. Use explicit labels as outlined in the 508 Standards Information for Standard (n). Provide a phone number the Web visitor can call to verbally supply the requested information. An e-mail address should also be included. Preface each form element with a descriptive name followed by a colon. The Microsoft Active Accessibility (MSAA) software calls each form element by the word prior to and on the same line as the form element. Example: label for="" Name:/lablel INPUT TYPE=text name=firstname id=first -- Reference 3. Sarah Horton, Accessible Design Guidelines http://www.dartmouth.edu/~webteach/resources/download/guidelines5.pdf Pay attention to punctuation Screen readers use punctuation cues to modulate the tone and measure of the reading, e.g., a colon will cause the screen reader to pause; a period will produce a cadence and pause. Be liberal with punctuation as these pauses and cadences greatly enhance the readability of your text. Without punctuation the reader continues without pause or change in inflection, so unpunctuated phrases run together into one long and jumbled sentence. Also, avoid using text to convey visual information, such as using a or /symbol as navigation to show the path to the users current location. The screen reader will read the symbol literally rather than interpret the visual meaning you wish to convey. Label form fields If you simply place a form field on a page and do not have a label associated with it, users who are read Web pages will have no way of knowing what the field is there for. Associate labels with their form fields by positioning them together on the page and by using the LABEL tag to associate the label text with its form field. Note that you need to include the ID attribute in your INPUT tags whenever you use the LABEL tag. Use LABEL to associate fields with their labels Example: LABEL FOR="" name: /LABELINPUT TYPE=text NAME=firstname ID=firstname LABEL FOR="" name: INPUT TYPE=text NAME=lastname ID=lastname -- Reference 4. Microsoft Developers Network http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/en-us/dnwue/html/ch15c.asp Accessibility Controls Use standard Windows controls wherever possible. Most of these have already been implemented to support screen-review and voice-input utilities. However, the custom controls you create may not be usable by screen-review utilities. Include a label for every control, even if you do not want the control's label to be visible. This applies regardless of whether you use standard controls or your own specialized controls, such as owner-drawn controls or custom controls. If the control does not provide a label, you can create a label using a static text control that you can define as hidden. Follow the standard layout conventions by placing the static text label before the control (above or
Re: [WSG] Chinese food and web standards
1) Is it acceptable to go live with a layout that doesn't work with either of these two browsers? (I notice that a number of prominent web standardista websites have done so) Define doesn't work? [I don't have those browsers to hand] If it doesn't work in the sense that some of the content is invisible or illegible, links aren't clickable etc, then I don't think I'd say it was acceptable. If, on the other hand, it just doesn't look as intended, and you've got valid standards HTML, then your conscience is clear. Fix the display in those browsers if and when you can. Have You Validated Your Code? John Horner(+612 / 02) 8333 3488 Developer, ABC Kids Onlinehttp://www.abc.net.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Chinese food and web standards
On 10/13/05, Ian Fenn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have a lovely new em-based page on Chinese food that works fine in practically everything apart from Netscape 6.2 and Konqueror 3.05. 1) Is it acceptable to go live with a layout that doesn't work with either of these two browsers? (I notice that a number of prominent web standardista websites have done so) Netscape 6 was based on a beta version of the Mozilla rendering engine - I forget which one exactly, but pre 1.0 - and for this reason it's hard to support. Considering that Netscape is up to version 8 now, I would not include this browser in my support profile (thanks to Eric Meyer's WE05 presentation for introducing me to this term!). I can't comment on Konqueror - I don't test in that browser, and the market share of Linux in general in my own web site stats is next to nil. I like the design, by the way - very tasty! I especially like the favicon - nice touch. -- Kay Smoljak http://kay.zombiecoder.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Is a colon after a form label necessary?
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of McLaughlin, Gail G Sent: Thursday, 13 October 2005 11:19 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Is a colon after a form label necessary? We are establishing Web standards for forms and are debating this. I suspect that using a colon after a label is a carry over from paper forms. Microsoft may need the colon. I do not know what screen review utilities are. Are they html validators? Are they accessibility validators? What say you all? I don't think they are compulsary. Just think of the exmaple when adding a Label *behind* a form element (e.g. after radio buttons or textboxes). You woulnd't put a colon in there, would you? Sometimes its nice to have, but I don't think anybody will complain if you don't as long as the visual relationship between label and element are clear. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Chinese food and web standards
John wrote: Define doesn't work? [I don't have those browsers to hand] If it doesn't work in the sense that some of the content is invisible or illegible, links aren't clickable etc, then I don't think I'd say it was acceptable. Sorry for being unclear. The page is pretty broken with overlaid content. You can see my browsercam output at http://www.browsercam.com/public.aspx?proj_id=198424 If, on the other hand, it just doesn't look as intended, and you've got valid standards HTML, then your conscience is clear. Fix the display in those browsers if and when you can. If only I knew where to start... It's taken me all evening to fix IE5.2 on the mac... The scent as to what's wrong isn't so strong with Netscape 6.2 and Konquerer. :-( I also need to solve an odd spacing issue with IE5.0 first :-/ All the best, -- Ian ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Chinese food and web standards
and the market share of Linux in general in my own web site stats is next to nil. Genuine question: Is this because they visit, it doesn't work, and they don't come back, forever losing them as a customer? Craig Rippon Brisbane, Australia ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Is a colon after a form label necessary?
It makes things easier to associate in my opinion. At the end of the day its just punctuation... like using a full stop to separate content. It may help too when the CSS is turned off.Zach Inglis // www.zachinglis.comOn 13 Oct 2005, at 02:18, McLaughlin, Gail G wrote: We are establishing Web standards for forms and are debating this. Here’s what I have gleaned based on reading the references cited below. 1. Colons are hard to see on a screen. (Reference 1.) 2. W3C does not state a requirement for a colon after a label. 3. WAI recommends identifying a label with a LABEL tag and does not mention using a colon. (Reference 3.) 4. 508 Standards Information for Standards does not mention using a colon for labels. 5. Microsoft Active Accessibility (MSAA) software might require the colon. (Reference 2.) 6. According to Microsoft, screen-review utilities might use a colon to identify a control. (Reference 4.) I suspect that using a colon after a label is a carry over from paper forms. Microsoft may need the colon. I do not know what “screen review utilities” are. Are they html validators? Are they accessibility validators? What say you all? --- Reference 1. William Horton in his book “Designing and Writing Online Documentation” recommends avoiding colons and semicolons because they are hard to distinguish on a screen. --- Reference 2. Wright State University http://www.wright.edu/web/access/standard_n.html (n) When electronic forms are designed to be completed on-line, the form shall allow people using assistive technology to access the information, field elements, and functionality required for completion and submission of the form, including all directions and cues. WSU Web Accessibility Guidelines WSU Information Ensure that the user may interact with the form with a preferred input (or output) device, such as a mouse, keyboard, voice or head wand. If a form control can only be activated with a mouse or other pointing device, someone who is using the page without sight, with voice input, or with only a keyboard will not be able to use the form. Use "explicit labels" as outlined in the 508 Standards Information for Standard (n). Provide a phone number the Web visitor can call to verbally supply the requested information. An e-mail address should also be included. Preface each form element with a descriptive name followed by a colon. The Microsoft Active Accessibility (MSAA) software calls each form element by the word prior to and on the same line as the form element. Example: label for=""First Name:/lablel INPUT TYPE="text" name="firstname" id="first" -- Reference 3. Sarah Horton, Accessible Design Guidelines http://www.dartmouth.edu/~webteach/resources/download/guidelines5.pdf Pay attention to punctuation Screen readers use punctuation cues to modulate the tone and measure of the reading, e.g., a colon will cause the screen reader to pause; a period will produce a cadence and pause. Be liberal with punctuation as these pauses and cadences greatly enhance the readability of your text. Without punctuation the reader continues without pause or change in inflection, so unpunctuated phrases run together into one long and jumbled sentence. Also, avoid using text to convey visual information, such as using a “” or “/”symbol as navigation to show the path to the user’s current location. The screen reader will read the symbol literally rather than interpret the visual meaning you wish to convey. Label form fields If you simply place a form field on a page and do not have a label associated with it, users who are read Web pages will have no way of knowing what the field is there for. Associate labels with their form fields by positioning them together on the page and by using the LABEL tag to associate the label text with its form field. Note that you need to include the ID attribute in your INPUT tags whenever you use the LABEL tag. Use LABEL to associate fields with their labels Example: LABEL FOR=""First name: /LABELINPUT TYPE="text" NAME="firstname" ID="firstname" LABEL FOR=""Last name: INPUT TYPE="text" NAME="lastname" ID="lastname" -- Reference 4. Microsoft Developers Network http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/en-us/dnwue/html/ch15c.asp Accessibility Controls Use standard Windows controls wherever possible. Most of these have already been implemented to support screen-review and voice-input utilities. However, the custom controls you create may not be usable by screen-review utilities. Include a label for every control, even if you do not want the control's label to be visible. This applies regardless of whether you use standard controls or your own specialized
RE: [WSG] Chinese food and web standards
Sorry for being unclear. The page is pretty broken with overlaid content. You can see my browsercam output at http://www.browsercam.com/public.aspx?proj_id=198424 Got it. Yes, pretty broken! Fix the display in those browsers if and when you can. If only I knew where to start... It's taken me all evening to fix IE5.2 on the mac... I personally would include in fix the display anything which leaves those browsers with legible, usable content, that is, it's better for them to look like this: http://www.browsercam.com/projects/198424/3883079.jpg the way they do in Netscape 4, than it is for them to look broken the way they do now. On the other hand, I don't know how to achieve that either! Have You Validated Your Code? John Horner(+612 / 02) 8333 3488 Developer, ABC Kids Onlinehttp://www.abc.net.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Chinese food and web standards
My layouts are pretty basic, so I doubt it wouldn't work. I think the number of people out in the general public using Linux on the desktop is infintismally (sp?) small. On 10/13/05, Craig Rippon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: and the market share of Linux in general in my own web site stats is next to nil. Genuine question: Is this because they visit, it doesn't work, and they don't come back, forever losing them as a customer? Craig Rippon Brisbane, Australia ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- Kay Smoljak http://kay.zombiecoder.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Chinese food and web standards
and the market share of Linux in general in my own web site stats is next to nil. Wouldn't a LOT of Linux users now be Firefox users too? The OS is not the concern here (although Konqueror is Linux exclusive? ), it's getting things working in (somewhat imperfect) browsers. Ian is expressing a valid commercial concern: trying to give users a consistent, functional experience despite browser inconsistencies. Paul ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Chinese food and web standards
Kay, thanks. I am a web development student at college and this point came up in a lecture, just curious to get opinions. Cheers Craig R. -Original Message- From: Kay Smoljak [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, 13 October 2005 12:27 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Chinese food and web standards My layouts are pretty basic, so I doubt it wouldn't work. I think the number of people out in the general public using Linux on the desktop is infintismally (sp?) small. On 10/13/05, Craig Rippon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: and the market share of Linux in general in my own web site stats is next to nil. Genuine question: Is this because they visit, it doesn't work, and they don't come back, forever losing them as a customer? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Chinese food and web standards
Hi Craig, On 10/13/05, Craig Rippon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kay, thanks. I am a web development student at college and this point came up in a lecture, just curious to get opinions. While it's important to be accessible to everyone, harsh economic realities dictate that you have to draw the line somewhere with browser support. Your own logs are the only real way to determine where that line lies. -- Kay Smoljak http://kay.zombiecoder.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Chinese food and web standards
Kay Smoljak wrote: My layouts are pretty basic, so I doubt it wouldn't work. I think the number of people out in the general public using Linux on the desktop is infintismally (sp?) small. Hem not infinitesimally small, but fewer than Windows. Possibly as many as Mac. IMHO designers fuss about the Mac versions because so many of us use them (me too!) but I also have a RedHat box under the desk and my laptop dual boots XP and Mandriva Linux. 'Cause it's standards-based, eh! ;-) Also, those who do use Linux tend to be on the geekier side of the street, and also quite loud when something isn't working. YMMV and your site stats should be your guide for at least the first release, but, if nothing else, sniff those browsers and give them an unstyled page, rather than a broken one. Cheers mark (PS my spellchecker just offered stoats for stats - it seems an equally valuable way to measure web site success! :-D ) ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Chinese food and web standards
Ian I am with Kay on Netscape 6.2 it was based on Mozilla 0.9.4.1 and released in October 2001. And quickly followed by 6.2.1 6.2.2 and 6.2.3 and then replaced within a year by Netscape 7 which ran a real Mozilla engine 1.0.1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netscape NS 6.2 has not been in my support profile for over 18 months, never tested with it. But how disastrous your page looks I might just have to check a couple of recent sites, then write a detection script in javascript and feed a plain CSS (ie remove all positioning, floats etc.) for Netscape 6 users. As for Konqueror the screenshot does not look that bad, it appears to have problems with the javascript for advertising more than anything else. If you want to test in Linux, get a copy of Ubuntu live CD, drop the CD into your drive, reboot from the CD and you have a fully function Linux box, unfortunately it uses the Gnome desktop which knocks out testing Konqueror, but there should be something similar which uses the KDE desktop. Nick This email is from the Department of Consumer and Employment Protection and any information or attachments to it may be confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, please reply mail to the sender informing them of the error and delete all copies from your computer system, including attachments and your reply email. As the information is confidential you must not disclose, copy or use it in any manner. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Chinese food and web standards
On 10/13/05, Nick Cowie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If you want to test in Linux, get a copy of Ubuntu live CD, drop the CD into your drive, reboot from the CD and you have a fully function Linux box, unfortunately it uses the Gnome desktop which knocks out testing Konqueror, but there should be something similar which uses the KDE desktop. According to Ben whom I'm sitting here now with, Knoppix (which also runs off a CD/USB Stick or whatever) uses KDE - knoppix.org. -- Kay Smoljak http://kay.zombiecoder.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Chinese food and web standards
but there should be something similar which uses the KDE desktop. Knoppix uses KDE from (rather rusty) memory http://www.Knoppix.org Paul ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] IE team says no to hacks
I personally think that this will be unrealistic for the time being. But it's nice to hear that the IE team is starting to take a stand agains the problems their buggy software created. http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2005/10/12/480242.aspx ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] IE team says no to hacks
On 10/13/05, Alan Trick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I personally think that this will be unrealistic for the time being. Butit's nice to hear that the IE team is starting to take a stand againsthe problems their buggy software created.It sounds more like they are taking a stand against the designers who tried to work around those buggy problems. They aren't cleaning up their own act, just making it harder to hack around them. IE 7 still has some of the quirky implementations that make older versions of IE so difficult to design for.The worst part is that they are condeming hacks, but promoting conditional comments. This is not the way to go! They should be eliminating the need for conditional comments entirely. -- - C Montoyardpdesign.com ... liquid.rdpdesign.com ... montoya.rdpdesign.com
Re: [WSG] Need more help Was: [css-d] List with hover background images
Tom Livingston wrote:
All I want is link text with a backgnd image to show on hover. And
ONLY the text should hover/link. The above again has active blank
space within the href... yes, because of display:block; but I can't
get the effect of text-pushed-over-to-allow-for-hover-bg-image w/o
it!
Have a nice little thing going with your code and
#faphomecontent a.subcatlink{display: inline-block; ... }
Saf, Op IE6 are doing fine.
FF isn't in the game - doesn't understand 'inline-block'.
However, if I write...
#faphomecontent a.subcatlink{display: table; display: inline-block; ... }
...then all 4 are doing just fine - picking the declaration each of them
like best. No CC needed.
Am I nutz?? Am I asking the impossible?
Probably, but you're in good company :-)
regards
Georg
--
http://www.gunlaug.no
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
Re: [WSG] Chinese food and web standards
Craig Rippon wrote: Kay, thanks. I am a web development student at college and this point came up in a lecture, just curious to get opinions. Cheers Craig R. Gday, I am a uni student at University of South Australia. May I ask you which college/uni teaches web development? Kat ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] IE team says no to hacks
what do you mean by conditional comments? It seems to me, that css hacks are not really a good thing since they are called hacks. The language should just work regardless of browser or computer. I think thats what standards are for aren't they? So that the language is standard for everyone?? Making it easier to maintain for future proof? Buddy Christian Montoya wrote: On 10/13/05, Alan Trick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I personally think that this will be unrealistic for the time being. But it's nice to hear that the IE team is starting to take a stand agains the problems their buggy software created. It sounds more like they are taking a stand against the designers who tried to work around those buggy problems. They aren't cleaning up their own act, just making it harder to hack around them. IE 7 still has some of the quirky implementations that make older versions of IE so difficult to design for. The worst part is that they are condeming hacks, but promoting conditional comments. This is not the way to go! They should be eliminating the need for conditional comments entirely. -- - C Montoya rdpdesign.com ... liquid.rdpdesign.com ... montoya.rdpdesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] IE team says no to hacks
Did you read the blog post in the link? The writer insists that developers use conditional comments, and even shows how to use them. What I am saying is that IE should be eliminating the need for both conditional comments and hacks. I'm not saying to take their functionality away... it's a nice option to have, just stop making IE so inconsistent with other browsers. I'll probably be using conditional comments for the next five years, and everytime I use them I think to myself, this would just be easier if IE worked the same as FF/Opera/Safari. On 10/13/05, Buddy Quaid [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: what do you mean by conditional comments? It seems to me, that css hacks are not really a good thing since they are called hacks. The language should just work regardless of browser or computer. I think thats what standards are for aren't they? So that the language is standard for everyone?? Making it easier to maintain for future proof? Buddy Christian Montoya wrote: On 10/13/05, Alan Trick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I personally think that this will be unrealistic for the time being. But it's nice to hear that the IE team is starting to take a stand agains the problems their buggy software created. It sounds more like they are taking a stand against the designers who tried to work around those buggy problems. They aren't cleaning up their own act, just making it harder to hack around them. IE 7 still has some of the quirky implementations that make older versions of IE so difficult to design for. The worst part is that they are condeming hacks, but promoting conditional comments. This is not the way to go! They should be eliminating the need for conditional comments entirely. -- - C Montoya rdpdesign.com ... liquid.rdpdesign.com ... montoya.rdpdesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- - C Montoyardpdesign.com ... liquid.rdpdesign.com ... montoya.rdpdesign.com
Re: [WSG] Chinese food and web standards
Katrina wrote: I'm sorry, I totally didn't mean to send that to the list. Kat ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Browser Stats
For what I see in: http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp it seems like FF is loosing terrain, is w3schools accurate? Or is there anyother place that I can check what the general public is using. This is for General Public, I know I can look in my logs to see my visitors, but I am just trying to get a general idea. TY, Helmut.
Re: [WSG] IE team says no to hacks
I read the first part and even went to the websites of the hacks it gave references to. I thought that was the end of the post and then only saw the conditional stuff after I had posted so I apologize for that. Yes, exactly... IE needs to play nice like all the other browsers. Buddy Christian Montoya wrote: Did you read the blog post in the link? The writer insists that developers use conditional comments, and even shows how to use them. What I am saying is that IE should be eliminating the need for both conditional comments and hacks. I'm not saying to take their functionality away... it's a nice option to have, just stop making IE so inconsistent with other browsers. I'll probably be using conditional comments for the next five years, and everytime I use them I think to myself, this would just be easier if IE worked the same as FF/Opera/Safari. On 10/13/05, Buddy Quaid [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: what do you mean by conditional comments? It seems to me, that css hacks are not really a good thing since they are called hacks. The language should just work regardless of browser or computer. I think thats what standards are for aren't they? So that the language is standard for everyone?? Making it easier to maintain for future proof? Buddy Christian Montoya wrote: On 10/13/05, Alan Trick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I personally think that this will be unrealistic for the time being. But it's nice to hear that the IE team is starting to take a stand agains the problems their buggy software created. It sounds more like they are taking a stand against the designers who tried to work around those buggy problems. They aren't cleaning up their own act, just making it harder to hack around them. IE 7 still has some of the quirky implementations that make older versions of IE so difficult to design for. The worst part is that they are condeming hacks, but promoting conditional comments. This is not the way to go! They should be eliminating the need for conditional comments entirely. -- - C Montoya rdpdesign.com ... liquid.rdpdesign.com ... montoya.rdpdesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- - C Montoya rdpdesign.com ... liquid.rdpdesign.com ... montoya.rdpdesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Browser Stats
On 10/12/05 10:43 PM Helmut Granda [EMAIL PROTECTED] sent this out: it seems like FF is loosing terrain, is w3schools accurate? It's accurate in my case. On Mac, I think FF pretty well s*cks - what with stuck menus and stalls and all that sort of thing. I went back to Safari after about 2 weeks on FF. Don't know about Windows at all. Rick ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] IE team says no to hacks
If you've gone against all sane advice and used CSS hacks then you knew exactly what you were in for with future browsers and potential problems. I don't want to see an M$ bitch session develop here while Microsoft are seemingly trying very hard do the right thing (at last). Obviously we have to wait and see what the final release does. At that point, I really hope you're (general) not going to charge your customers if you have to fix up bugs (hacks) that you knowingly induced into their websites if you didn't make it clear to them at the time that hacking may require rectification in the future. Sorry for the smug told you so, but many people including myself have made this very clear over the whole life of WSG. You only have yourself to blame. Peter previously comment=I'm really sick of html emails on this list It sounds more like they are taking a stand against the designers who tried to work around those buggy problems. They aren't cleaning up their own act, just making it harder to hack around them. IE 7 still has some of the quirky implementations that make older versions of IE so difficult to design for. /previously ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
