Re: [WSG] Talking about tabular data...
At 3/6/2007 11:04 PM, Thierry Koblentz wrote: For me if it fits in a two column table then it's not tabular data. Yikes-a-roonie! That is the most refreshingly bizarre assertion I've heard all day. And self-contradictory: if it fits in a table then it is by definition tabular, number of columns aside. Your three-column minimum certainly doesn't apply to data tables in general out there in the real world; why impose such a restriction in HTML? I've just re-read what the HTML 4.1 spec has to say about table markup and structure, and nowhere did I see any restriction on the number of columns a table may have. I have a need for a table when it is the only tool that would make sense of the data. Usually that's the way I think about it, if it makes sense only in a table then it's tabular data. If you apply that same rigorousness to all of HTML's tags you're going to tie yourself up in knots. You could as easily say that you shouldn't use a definition list unless it's the only structure that will hold the data. A 2xN dataset doesn't *require* a definition list; to be consistent shouldn't you assert that you shouldn't use a DL unless your data requires that structure? With a table's flexibility in the number of rows and columns and a DL's flexibility in the number of DTs and DDs, how can you find the kind of inflexibility you're seeking? If someone marks up a two-column dataset as H3-P pairs I don't think they're marking it up incorrectly, just differently, with some arguable advantages and disadvantages depending on their circumstances. I don't think the other way around, I don't leave room for any other consideration. So in short, if it *also* makes sense in a DL or an UL or anything else (without styling), then it is not tabular data. Because only tables can display tabular data. You're expecting the markup language to be excessively rigorous. HTML has latitude, gives us choices, leaves us room to be creative and inventive and to come up with multiple solutions to problems. If you paint yourself into tight corners then your own innovations will become brittle and uninspired. Hang loose, man. Paul *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Talking about tabular data...
David Pietersen wrote: Sorry if this has already come up... but have you seen these? http://www.lenef.com/dotleader/ http://home.tampabay.rr.com/bmerkey/examples/dot-leaders.html And another, One I did a while back : http://www.webscribe.fsnet.co.uk/menufiles/mk/mkchapters.html -- Bob www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Site Check: lagunadesigns.com.au
Hi guys, I've been developing websites for quite a while now, (first one would have been around '98) and enjoy it a lot. I have recently decided to start offering my services around the Newcastle, Australia area. I have been focusing lately on usability and standards, which is the main reason that I signed up with this newsletter. It's quite appalling the regard for web standards and accessibility/usability that some web design companies have. My day job is actually as an IT administrator for a company here in Newcastle, which I started at 4 months ago. Before I was there, my boss gave the go ahead to a local marketing agency to design a website for them (I bet you can smell the trouble already). I was pretty surprised that they actually used a CSS layout and didn't go for tables, but the site they produced didn't even check out in the W3C validator! When I questioned them about it, they said webdesigncompany has been approached to provide a marketing solution, and has delivered this I'm sure my boss didn't ask for marketing solution, I'm sure he actually said to them I want a website... however, I digress. If I could get you guys to have a look at the website www.lagunadesigns.com.au it would be greatly appreciated. I am going to list this on Google AdWords under a few keywords once I'm completely happy with it. I tried to go for a web 2.0 style look. Thanks for your help, Dylan Lindgren Laguna Designs [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.lagunadesigns.com.au *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] PopUp windows
Problem: client wants (insists on having) popup windows. Question: can they be made OK according to all canons of WSG? (ie served in a different/alternative manner for people, devices, etc. - leave aside the js argument, as that I have solved). *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] PopUp windows
Canons! The religion of W3C! All praise to the W3C Only the transitional doctype is available for new window targets, not the strict compliance with W3C Papal enclyclicals. Tim On 07/03/2007, at 9:05 PM, Bob Schwartz wrote: Problem: client wants (insists on having) popup windows. Question: can they be made OK according to all canons of WSG? (ie served in a different/alternative manner for people, devices, etc. - leave aside the js argument, as that I have solved). *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** The Editor Heretic Press http://www.hereticpress.com Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] PopUp windows
The target is not used, it is popup via js or regular window without. Canons! The religion of W3C! All praise to the W3C Only the transitional doctype is available for new window targets, not the strict compliance with W3C Papal enclyclicals. Tim On 07/03/2007, at 9:05 PM, Bob Schwartz wrote: Problem: client wants (insists on having) popup windows. Question: can they be made OK according to all canons of WSG? (ie served in a different/alternative manner for people, devices, etc. - leave aside the js argument, as that I have solved). *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** The Editor Heretic Press http://www.hereticpress.com Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Site Check: lagunadesigns.com.au
Hey Dylan, Great job on the site - it looks really good! I particularly like the way you've added click to return home on your logo, a really nice touch. Only criticism I would say is not to do with the standards or anything, but I'd give a rough idea of how long it takes you to build each type of website (e..g personal - 3-5 days, etc) Anyway, nice site! Ben -- e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] w: http://www.bendodson.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Site Check: lagunadesigns.com.au
Dylan Lindgren wrote: If I could get you guys to have a look at the website www.lagunadesigns.com.au it would be greatly appreciated. Dylan Lindgren Dylan, I think you are off to a good start. The w3c markup validation service will point to the same few errors on all pages. It is important to resolve them. And with a little care, your page will handle font-scaling better. The site needs correction for IE6, if that browser is important to you. Best, ~dL -- http://chelseacreekstudio.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] PopUp windows
Bob Schwartz wrote: The target is not used, it is popup via js or regular window without. I raised this a while ago. One argument is that if the doctype does not allow the target attribute then you're just cheating by using javascript; in which case, getting the page to validate is little more than a trick. New windows do raise accessibility issues and they break the back button and you have to address these issues. However, clients do expect to have pop-ups so you have to decide whether to 'cheat' or use the appropriate doctype. Ultimately you're designing for your clients and users, not the canons of WSG. Kind Regards -- Chris Price Choctaw [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.choctaw.co.uk Tel. 01524 825 245 Mob. 0777 451 4488 Beauty is in the Eye of the Beholder while Excellence is in the Hand of the Professional ~~~ -+- Sent on behalf of Choctaw Media Ltd -+- ~~~ Choctaw Media Limited is a company registered in England and Wales with company number 04627649 Registered Office: Lonsdale Partners, Priory Close, St Mary's Gate, Lancaster LA1 1XB United Kingdom *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Talking about tabular data...
Tables always get people dancing around the room, mostly drunk.
The presentation seems unusual as does the term 'table' (possibly
because there's only two values per row). But the most common instance
of tables in print is the table of contents, which is exactly like this.
Try arguing that isn't a table.
Introduction..1
Chapter 139
Chapter 256
As for the 'it could just as well be a definition list' thing, I'm in
agreement but it doesn't cause me headaches anymore. From a practical
level, dd{display:table} doesn't work very well, whereas
td{display:block} is bulletproof. So in any case where something could
be construed as a table, I'd say go with those tags and use CSS if you
decide the info isn't being displayed clearly.
Regards,
Barney
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Re: [WSG] Site Check: lagunadesigns.com.au
Sorry, all the pages were validating correctly half a week ago, but I made a few changes since then. I've fixed this up, and all the pages now validate to XHTML strict. I will have a look at the text scaling and IE6 issue. Thanks for your help guys. d. On 3/7/07, ~davidLaakso [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dylan Lindgren wrote: If I could get you guys to have a look at the website www.lagunadesigns.com.au it would be greatly appreciated. Dylan Lindgren Dylan, I think you are off to a good start. The w3c markup validation service will point to the same few errors on all pages. It is important to resolve them. And with a little care, your page will handle font-scaling better. The site needs correction for IE6, if that browser is important to you. Best, ~dL -- http://chelseacreekstudio.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Talking about tabular data...
Barney
I don't see this as being a definition list. 39 does not define Chapter 1,
it is an indicator of where to find chapter 1. It is arguably a table, as in
table of contents. Of course it is all a bit of an odd case considering the
web. Web pages aren't paper, and trying to replicate the behaviour of books
via a screen can in *many* circumstances seem a little perverse
--
Regards
- Rob
Raising web standards : http://ele.vation.co.uk
On 07/03/07, Barney Carroll [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Tables always get people dancing around the room, mostly drunk.
The presentation seems unusual as does the term 'table' (possibly
because there's only two values per row). But the most common instance
of tables in print is the table of contents, which is exactly like this.
Try arguing that isn't a table.
Introduction..1
Chapter 139
Chapter 256
As for the 'it could just as well be a definition list' thing, I'm in
agreement but it doesn't cause me headaches anymore. From a practical
level, dd{display:table} doesn't work very well, whereas
td{display:block} is bulletproof. So in any case where something could
be construed as a table, I'd say go with those tags and use CSS if you
decide the info isn't being displayed clearly.
Regards,
Barney
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Re: [WSG] Talking about tabular data...
Rob Kirton wrote:
Barney
I don't see this as being a definition list. 39 does not define Chapter
1, it is an indicator of where to find chapter 1. It is arguably a
table, as in table of contents. Of course it is all a bit of an odd case
considering the web. Web pages aren't paper, and trying to replicate
the behaviour of books via a screen can in *many* circumstances seem a
little perverse
--
Regards
- Rob
Sorry Rob, I think you've got the wrong idea. This is relating to a post
Thierry made about tabular data.
The example of contents tables was specifically cited as being 'instance
of tables in print'. I was by no means suggesting we take this to the
web - Thierry's example uses the same format (which is the key matter)
but relates to positions occupied within a company in one column and the
names of the holders in the second.
Remembering that we're discussing Thierry's example, a definition list
would have been appropriate. Besides, I was specifically stating that
the markup for definition lists could be avoided and the same layout
produced with a table and CSS (td{display:block} + niceties).
Regards,
Barney
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Re: [WSG] PopUp windows
On 7 Mar 2007, at 11:52:39, Chris Price wrote: One argument is that if the doctype does not allow the target attribute then you're just cheating by using javascript; in which case, getting the page to validate is little more than a trick. I believe that argument only applies to the case where JavaScript is used to dynamically add the target attribute to the link, not when other methods are used to generate the popup, such as adding an onclick handler to the link. Such other methods are, in fact, the preferred way of generating popups, in that they remove the behavioural component from the markup layer, and don't rely on sneaking it into the DOM via the back door, as is the case with adding the target attribute to an otherwise valid DOM. Regards, Nick. -- Nick Fitzsimons http://www.nickfitz.co.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Site Check: lagunadesigns.com.au
On 3/7/07, Dylan Lindgren [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi guys, ... If I could get you guys to have a look at the website www.lagunadesigns.com.au it would be greatly appreciated. I am going to list this on Google AdWords under a few keywords once I'm completely happy with it. I tried to go for a web 2.0 style look. Thanks for your help, Dylan Lindgren Laguna Designs [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.lagunadesigns.com.au The design, markup etc. is great. I just have a couple suggestions on the copy. I wouldn't say accessible price, but rather affordable price. In the features table, you have: # Graphically appealing # Highly customizable # User friendly # Standards based repeated for all site plans. I wouldn't repeat these things for every single plan, but rather have a way of saying, outside the table, that all site plans are w,x,y,z. Then it would be easier for people to see which features are different between the site plans. Finally, it seems like some of the links in the portfolio are out of date. Hope it helps. -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net .. designtocss.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Talking about tabular data...
Thierry Koblentz wrote: President..John Smith Vice-president.Janet Jones I see this as something that could be, or even should be, presented (styled) in a table-like manner, but I would normally not mark something like this up in a table. If I _have to_ organize something in a table in order to make sense of it, then it definitely belongs in a table - even on the web. If, OTOH, it makes just as much sense when the parts are just kept together in the source-code and presented un-styled, then I just check that it hasn't lost any meaning when styled. The un-styled presentation is the major factor when I choose what elements to use for something like this. Having it read out loud by a browser on this level, assures I haven't made too much of a mistake in my choice of mark up. Georg -- http://www.gunlaug.no *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Talking about tabular data...
At 3/6/2007 11:04 PM, Thierry Koblentz wrote: For me if it fits in a two column table then it's not tabular data. And self-contradictory: if it fits in a table then it is by definition tabular, number of columns aside. I didn't say that. What I said is if it *only* fits in a table then it is tabular data. HTML? I've just re-read what the HTML 4.1 spec has to say about table markup and structure, and nowhere did I see any restriction on the number of columns a table may have. I didn't say that either. Actually, I never made any reference to the specs, my post was only about how *I* define tabular data. Since there is no definitive answer, I just tried to come up with a definition that would help me make simplier decision about mark up. I have a need for a table when it is the only tool that would make sense of the data. Usually that's the way I think about it, if it makes sense only in a table then it's tabular data. If you apply that same rigorousness to all of HTML's tags you're going to tie yourself up in knots. You could as easily say that you Where did I say I was applying this kind of thinking for every single tag? I think you're missing my point which is only my personal way to define tabular data and has nothing to do with any other HTML 'tag. inflexibility you're seeking? If someone marks up a two-column dataset as H3-P pairs I don't think they're marking it up incorrectly, just differently, with some arguable advantages and disadvantages depending on their circumstances. It's not about what people do and how they do it, it's about defining tabular data. Using the example above, I'd say that - for me, based on my own definition - I would not consider this as tabular data if it makes sense as H3-P without the use of a table. I don't think the other way around, I don't leave room for any other consideration. So in short, if it *also* makes sense in a DL or an UL or anything else (without styling), then it is not tabular data. Because only tables can display tabular data. You're expecting the markup language to be excessively rigorous. HTML has latitude, gives us choices, leaves us room to be creative and inventive and to come up with multiple solutions to problems. If you paint yourself into tight corners then your own innovations will become brittle and uninspired. Not at all Paul. Please read my post again and you'll see that I'm not talking about how things should be marked up, but how I recognize tabular data (the way I do it). --- Regards, Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] PopUp windows
I find this argument interesting: One of the main purposes for popping up a window when nav leaves your site is to keep the site always visible - better known this as marketing. By keeping a site always around, the viewer is less likely to forget about it, and is more likely to perhaps purchase something, etc. I have tried to fight this battle many times, and the result is, you can't win. Why?? Because a successful marketing campaign generates money for the customer, and isn't that why they (usually) wanted a web presence anyway??? Just my $.02 on a hard lesson learned - I don't fight it anymore. Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] New Project - Feedback Appreciated
In what way do you think that SPANs are better than DIVs? My understanding was that they were both entirely neutral, and at exactly the same level as each other, simply that one is a block by default, while the other is inline. Regards, Mike -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike at Green-Beast.com My only comment is that I'd put your rounded corners in spans instead of divs. Seems like it'd be more semantic. Being they're just holding images and not really divisions. Respectfully, Mike Cherim http://green-beast.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] PopUp windows
On 3/7/07, Nick Fitzsimons [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The problem is that this argument about keeping the site visible is fallacious; usability research shows that if anything it has the opposite effect, making it harder for people to return to the site. Agreed - just wanted to present the 'usual' argument as to why clients want popups (at least what I've found)although I must say, I've yet to be able to convince a client that they were wrong simply by quoting research (I'm usually told in more or less terms that they know better...LoL!!!). Cheers... Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] PopUp windows
At 3/7/2007 02:05 AM, Bob Schwartz wrote: Problem: client wants (insists on having) popup windows. Question: can they be made OK according to all canons of WSG? (ie served in a different/alternative manner for people, devices, etc. - leave aside the js argument, as that I have solved). You'll want to warn users, e.g. with a title/tooltip that says something like (Opens in a new window). I've been told by a small number of screen-reader users that this solves for them the disconcerting problem of windows popping open with back buttons disabled. Aside from the usability issues, for me the most persuasive argument against pop-up windows is that they're bloody irritating. I open links in new windows when I want to and I don't when I don't want to, and I resent efforts to subvert my decisions because some innane marketing managers think that if their sites remain open on my desktop a few moments longer I'm more likely to buy their friggin product. In fact it has the opposite effect. If they force me to make an extra effort to close their windows I'm less likely to ever open them again. You don't sell more stuff by shoving your foot in the door, you just motivate the customer to push back harder. Regards, Paul __ Paul Novitski Juniper Webcraft Ltd. http://juniperwebcraft.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] PopUp windows
What about PDF's. Should they open the same window? *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] PopUp windows
Nick Fitzsimons wrote: On 7 Mar 2007, at 14:41:54, Michael Yeaney wrote: I find this argument interesting: One of the main purposes for popping up a window when nav leaves your site is to keep the site always visible - better known this as marketing. By keeping a site always around, the viewer is less likely to forget about it, and is more likely to perhaps purchase something, etc. I have tried to fight this battle many times, and the result is, you can't win. Why?? Because a successful marketing campaign generates money for the customer, and isn't that why they (usually) wanted a web presence anyway??? The problem is that this argument about keeping the site visible is fallacious; usability research shows that if anything it has the opposite effect, making it harder for people to return to the site. To quote Jakob Nielsen: Designers open new browser windows on the theory that it keeps users on their site. But even disregarding the user-hostile message implied in taking over the user's machine, the strategy is self-defeating since it disables the Back button which is the normal way users return to previous sites. Users often don't notice that a new window has opened, especially if they are using a small monitor where the windows are maximized to fill up the screen. So a user who tries to return to the origin will be confused by a grayed out Back button. http://www.useit.com/alertbox/990530.html (Note that there is a much-expanded version of this in the book Prioritizing Web Usability, Nielsen Loranger 2006, which also explains the usability studies through which they gathered their data.) I too have fought this battle on a number of occasions, and find that being able to cite published research will ultimately win out over some marketing bod's vague idea about something based on a conversation they overheard in 1997. Regards, Nick. --Nick Fitzsimons http://www.nickfitz.co.uk/ People who use Windows (= the majority) are always creating 'new windows' on the PC - mail, browser, spreadsheet, help files, opening files, saving them, printing them etc etc ad inf. And this is different because . . . ? -- Bob www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] PopUp windows
People who use Windows (= the majority) are always creating 'new windows' on the PC - mail, browser, spreadsheet, help files, opening files, saving them, printing them etc etc ad inf. And this is different because . . . ? It's different because people either chose to open new windows or expected a new window to open. When using an Internet browser the expected behaviour when you click a link is for the new page to open in the current window. There is an excellent article describing the different interaction models for desktop and web-based applications at http://www.mprove.de/script/07/medichi/paper.html What about PDF's. Should they open the same window? From our (albeit limited) experience of testing this situation I would say that the impact of opening a new window or not is insignificant compared with the impact of opening a new document type without the user realising. Again this is due to the different interaction model, which is exacerbated for people using assistive technologies, some of which perform very differently (and badly) with PDFs. Our experience also suggests that few people read, or understand the consequence of, warnings that the next page will be in a different document format or will open in a new window. So my advice is to avoid non-HTML document types and to avoid opening new windows unless there is genuinely no option. Steve Green Director Test Partners Ltd / First Accessibility www.testpartners.co.uk www.accessibility.co.uk *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] PopUp windows
On Wed, 7 Mar 2007 11:05:01 +0100, Bob Schwartz wrote: Problem: client wants (insists on having) popup windows. Question: can they be made OK according to all canons of WSG? (ie served in a different/alternative manner for people, devices, etc. - leave aside the js argument, as that I have solved). I would say that, standards or no standards, pop-ups increasingly just don't work. Speaking for myself, I find links that open new windows/ tabs when I don't want them to highly irritating. All the browsers I use let me control where I want my next page to appear - I don't need that decision made for me. Perhaps the linked pages belong to competitors, and the client does not want visitors to see them? Cordially, David -- *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] PopUp windows
On Mar 7, 2007, at 1:29 PM, Designer wrote: People who use Windows (= the majority) are always creating 'new windows' on the PC - mail, browser, spreadsheet, help files, opening files, saving them, printing them etc etc ad inf. And this is different because . . . ? Because they are, at least in the cases you cite, starting a new activity, either within the context of the OS or of the individual application, and the behavior they experience remains consistent. Let's try a far-fetched analogy: someone decides the world needs a new word processing application, and they then decide that each time the user enters a new page, either by overflowing the bounds of the current page or by inserting a page break, then the new page deserves a new window. And they do this without providing warnings or options... As to the question of web pop up windows, I believe most browsers default to pop up blocking on, and I strongly suspect that the majority of users are so indoctrinated with the notion that pop up = really annoying intrusion, that they are unlikely to make exceptions. (Is there any data on this?) As to the particular scenario Bob describes this http://aclib.us/ index.php? site_area=library_governmentpage=public_meetingssub_page=minutes is the solution I have used. No inherent claims to originality, that this is the best or only solution, (and yes I'm very much aware of more general problems with the site - we're working on it...). Andrew 109B SE 4th Av Gainesville FL 32601 Cell: 352-870-6661 http://www.andrewmaben.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a well designed user interface, the user should not need instructions. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] PopUp windows
On Wed, 7 Mar 2007 11:05:01 +0100, Bob Schwartz wrote: Problem: client wants (insists on having) popup windows. Question: can they be made OK according to all canons of WSG? (ie served in a different/alternative manner for people, devices, etc. - leave aside the js argument, as that I have solved). I would say that, standards or no standards, pop-ups increasingly just don't work. Speaking for myself, I find links that open new windows/ tabs when I don't want them to highly irritating. All the browsers I use let me control where I want my next page to appear - I don't need that decision made for me. Perhaps the linked pages belong to competitors, and the client does not want visitors to see them? Cordially, David -- *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] PopUp windows
From: Kim Kruse [EMAIL PROTECTED] What about PDF's. Should they open the same window? I've had such poor history with Acrobat Reader stability when running inside a browser that I try to avoid PDF when alterntatives are available, but when only a PDF is possible, I usually give a clear notice with the link that this is a PDF file then zip it up just to be safe - like the Cookie Monster link on this page: http://www.projectseven.com/extensions/listing.htm (Under Heading: Free Extensions) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] PopUp windows
This sounds like a perfect application for Ajax. Have the TOC on the left, the actual document on the right... opens as you click through the TOC? Just a thought... -Original Message- From: Bob Schwartz Subject: Re: [WSG] PopUp windows Example would be a page with a sort of table of contents which lists minutes of the past five years board meeting, the user clicks on one, it pops up they read it, print it or whatever, then go to the next. It gives them a chance to browse without leaving the TOC page, *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Use of Enter key to naviagte between form fields
Jixor - Stephen I wrote: Just a note that most users don't know that you can use enter to submit. But they'll be darned surprised when they're used to a site that overrides that behaviour and then go out into the wild wild web. But yes, in this particular scenario (intranet type app, replicating a specific data entry mode from access), I'd also agree that it's fine (maybe adding a note in a help/about page could also be of use). P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] PopUp windows
Bob Schwartz wrote: Example would be a page with a sort of table of contents which lists minutes of the past five years board meeting, the user clicks on one, it pops up they read it, print it or whatever, then go to the next. It gives them a chance to browse without leaving the TOC page, And so does a regular link (since I can just middle click to open in a new tab). With a regular link I can follow it normally and then use the back button to get back to where I was before, without having to close windows or dig around in my task manager to find the window with the previous document in it. -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] PopUp windows
Chris Williams wrote: This sounds like a perfect application for Ajax. Have the TOC on the left, the actual document on the right... opens as you click through the TOC? Just a thought... Or, maybe frames - (ducks for cover!) -- Bob www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] PopUp windows
"As to the question of web pop up windows, I believe most browsers default to pop up blocking on, and I strongly suspect that the majority of users are so indoctrinated with the notion that pop up = really annoying intrusion, that they are unlikely to make exceptions. (Is there any data on this?)" And that brings up another problem! Ever tried to book tickets online. Almost everything pops up in new windows... dates, numbers of travelers, payment and verification etc and now I've to "allow" these windows to pop if I want to book my tickets :) Not exactly a perfect world. ***List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmUnsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfmHelp: [EMAIL PROTECTED]***
RE: [WSG] PopUp windows
This sounds like a perfect application for Ajax. Have the TOC on the left, the actual document on the right... opens as you click through the TOC? Just a thought... Or frames! Only kidding, even though they would be way more accessible than an AJAX 'solution'. Steve *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] PopUp windows
Anyone remember frames? It's a plan so crazy it just might work! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chris Williams Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 8:23 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] PopUp windows This sounds like a perfect application for Ajax. Have the TOC on the left, the actual document on the right... opens as you click through the TOC? Just a thought... -Original Message- From: Bob Schwartz Subject: Re: [WSG] PopUp windows Example would be a page with a sort of table of contents which lists minutes of the past five years board meeting, the user clicks on one, it pops up they read it, print it or whatever, then go to the next. It gives them a chance to browse without leaving the TOC page, *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] PopUp windows
Al, Got an example somewhere? I Googled around but only found references, not a working iframe. From: Bob Schwartz [EMAIL PROTECTED] Example would be a page with a sort of table of contents which lists minutes of the past five years board meeting, the user clicks on one, it pops up they read it, print it or whatever, then go to the next. One approach would be to use script to generate an iframe object to carry the minutes. The links would be actual links that are intercepted by the script (to open the target in the iframe) but returned false, so that if script is disabled, you would default to a straight link to each minutes page. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] PopUp windows
And so does a regular link (since I can just middle click to open in a new tab). Not everyone has a mouse with a middle button or scroll wheel and even fewer know that they can click it to open a new window/tab. Can I ask what people view as the best option for presenting additional information on a form you're filling out? Ideally it would be visible on the page itself, but sometimes that's not possible and making the user click a link to another page and then back again can be an inconvenience if some of the info they've entered is removed (passwords etc.) -- Tyssen Design www.tyssendesign.com.au Ph: (07) 3300 3303 Mb: 0405 678 590 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] PopUp windows
Kim Kruse wrote: And that brings up another problem! Ever tried to book tickets online. Almost everything pops up in new windows... dates, numbers of travelers, payment and verification etc and now I've to allow these windows to pop if I want to book my tickets :) When I paid for hosting through WorldPay I got a message asking if I wanted get my card verified. I didn't realize I was going to get a pop-up and after deciding this wasn't worth the effort I abandoned the exercise only to find the pop-up in the background. I had a similar thing with a client who was double clicking the pop-up link on his website and, of course, that brought the main window back into focus and hid the pop-up. Its easy to forget how frustrating some of these nifty tricks can be when you don't get the behaviour you expect. Kind Regards -- Chris Price Choctaw [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.choctaw.co.uk Tel. 01524 825 245 Mob. 0777 451 4488 Beauty is in the Eye of the Beholder while Excellence is in the Hand of the Professional ~~~ -+- Sent on behalf of Choctaw Media Ltd -+- ~~~ Choctaw Media Limited is a company registered in England and Wales with company number 04627649 Registered Office: Lonsdale Partners, Priory Close, St Mary's Gate, Lancaster LA1 1XB United Kingdom *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] PopUp windows
John Faulds wrote: And so does a regular link (since I can just middle click to open in a new tab). Not everyone has a mouse with a middle button or scroll wheel There are other ways to open new windows, that was just the method I use. and even fewer know that they can click it to open a new window/tab. And they, I suspect, would be the people least able to handle a new window spawned by the webpage. The back button is one of the first things people learn about browsers. -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] PopUp windows
Not everyone has a user agent that supports multiple windows or in-page popups (e.g. JavaScript or CSS). How would you provide the additional information to these people? Steve -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Faulds Sent: 07 March 2007 21:24 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] PopUp windows And so does a regular link (since I can just middle click to open in a new tab). Not everyone has a mouse with a middle button or scroll wheel and even fewer know that they can click it to open a new window/tab. Can I ask what people view as the best option for presenting additional information on a form you're filling out? Ideally it would be visible on the page itself, but sometimes that's not possible and making the user click a link to another page and then back again can be an inconvenience if some of the info they've entered is removed (passwords etc.) -- Tyssen Design www.tyssendesign.com.au Ph: (07) 3300 3303 Mb: 0405 678 590 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] PopUp windows
and even fewer know that they can click it to open a new window/tab. And they, I suspect, would be the people least able to handle a new window spawned by the webpage. The back button is one of the first things people learn about browsers. I don't agree with that. One of my favourite stats is that 30% of browser activity involves using the Back button AND that 30% of users have no idea what the Back button is or does. I find this representative of the issues we're dealing with - the inherent contradictions of user behaviour. FWIW, I watched one user testing session last year involving 14 people over 5 days. 10 people seemed convinced that pressing Escape would take them back one page. When told that the Back button would do that for them, 8 of them kept trying to use the Escape key. While I respect the views of people on this list as to not wanting to be told what to do when browsing, I feel many users need and want guidance in lieu of having been taught how to use a browser. Think about things like refreshing a page in the various browsers - it can be hard to work it out intuitively. That doesn't actually advance the new window/current window argument, I know. But I guess that's the point - I don't think there is an absolute answer. Ricky *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] PopUp windows
Hi Bob, You may want to look at solutions like thickbox (http://jquery.com/demo/thickbox/) which offers a very degradable way to open faux popups, or floating divs, and also adds some nice animation in there too. This way, if the browser has javascript support (and it's enabled) then what the user gets is quite a fancy alternative to standard to popups (and it'll definately keep the client happy) and it will degrade nicely to simply open a new site (in the same window if you choose) if the JS support isnt there. There's also greybox (http://orangoo.com/labs/GreyBox/) which does a similar thing without the need for the jquery library. I've spent a good couple of weeks developing a solution on the prototype library that combines thickbox with lightbox (http://www.huddletogether.com/projects/lightbox2/) but its not yet ready for release as I havent fully stress tested it. Cheers, David. Bob Schwartz wrote: Problem: client wants (insists on having) popup windows. Question: can they be made OK according to all canons of WSG? (ie served in a different/alternative manner for people, devices, etc. - leave aside the js argument, as that I have solved). *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] PopUp windows
How would you provide the additional information to these people? I thought that's what my question was? -- Tyssen Design www.tyssendesign.com.au Ph: (07) 3300 3303 Mb: 0405 678 590 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] (X)HTML best practice cheat sheet
This message has already been posted to the what-wg mailing list and to the wasp-edutf mailing list. Please forgive duplication and feel free to ignore... Hello yet again! For the benefit of myself and my students I have started to put together a cheat sheet of (X)HTML elements. Although only HTML 4.01 strict, XHTML 1.0 strict and XHMTL 1.1 Mobile are recommended to my students for use today, I include all of HTML 3.2, 4.01/X1.0 transitional/frameset, some XHTML 2.0 and all of (X)(HTML 5 as well as some proprietary elements as reference, to provide a historical perspective and some preparation for the future. Unlike other cheat sheets the emphasis is not on syntax, but on proper usage. Any feedback on my work is greatly appreciated. The cheat sheet is available (during development) at: http://keryx.se/wasp/html_elements_beta.pdf http://keryx.se/wasp/html_elements_beta.ods (Open Office Calc) It is primarily intended for print, but when it reaches 1.0 status, I will probably make an HTML version as well. A few notes: - I have grouped the elements according to how I teach. It may not reflect the way you think of them, and it does not reflect any spec. Known issue - I won't change it. - All advice is appreciated, but if it can't be boiled down into something short I can't use it. Please feel free to suggest a wording. - If you would like to give me feedback by changing the OO-document and mailing it to me, please use the versioning so I can track your suggestions and criticism. Many thanks. Lars Gunther P.S. I'll include anyone who provides feedback in the document. It currently says: The recommendations in the table above represents the personal opinion of Lars Gunther, although valuable suggestions have been provided by April Siegfried, Christian Montoya, Alexey Feldgendler and Simon Pieters. This list is intended to be used as a reference while coding (or seeing other's code) and as notes for learning (X)HTML. Strict doctypes that are supported by the browsers of today is recommended for normal web pages. XHTML 1.1 Mobile is recommended for pages primarily intended for cell phones and similar devices (WAP 2.0). Proprietary elements are included for reference if stumbled upon. A few XHTML 2.0 and most (X)HTML 5 elements are included as examples of where (X)HTML might be heading in the future. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] PopUp windows
Paul Novitski wrote: You'll want to warn users, e.g. with a title/tooltip that says something like (Opens in a new window). I've been told by a small number of screen-reader users that this solves for them the disconcerting problem of windows popping open with back buttons disabled. Late to the party: This presumes of course that the user-agent will either produce a tool-tip, and/or that a screen reader has been configured to read aloud the title attribute - two conditions I would not bet the farm on... JF *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] XHTML vz HTML speed
Hello again! Firefox 3.0 will support incremental rendering of true XHTML, since bug 18333 has been fixed: http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=18333 and http://www.mozilla.org/projects/firefox/3.0a2/releasenotes/ One argument in support of XHTML has been speed (seldom heard today, though) and one argument against it has been speed - no incremental loading. However, Gecko seems to be the last XHTML-aware browser to implement this, so in a short while the speed argument should work only in support of XHTML. My question: I wonder if anyone has *measured* any speed differences between application/xhtml+xml and text/html in Opera, Safari or Firefox/Gran Paradiso alpha 2? Are there any results posted somewhere? Lars Gunther *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] PopUp windows
On 3/7/07, Michael Yeaney [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I find this argument interesting: One of the main purposes for popping up a window when nav leaves your site is to keep the site always visible - better known this as marketing. By keeping a site always around, the viewer is less likely to forget about it, and is more likely to perhaps purchase something, etc. I have tried to fight this battle many times, and the result is, you can't win. Why?? Because a successful marketing campaign generates money for the customer, and isn't that why they (usually) wanted a web presence anyway??? Understood, but have these marketers ever tried any other marketing techniques? Like using engaging copy, encouraging visitors to sign up for e-mail updates, or offering RSS? There are other ways to make a site profitable, some which are probably much more effective. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net .. designtocss.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] PopUp windows
What I meant is that the so-called 'additional' information cannot be additional. If it is essential information then it has to go in the current page even if someone else says that is not acceptable. If it isn't, the site will be inaccessible or unusable to some users. There are all kinds of ways this 'additional' information can be hidden from users of 'conventional' browsers until they click a link to display it, but it has to be in the same page. This means it will always be visible to people with user agents that cannot hide it, so it must be presented to them in a manner that is comprehensible. If there is so much information that it is not possible to present it all at once in a comprehensible manner then perhaps you need to rethink the design of that part of the site. I'm not saying there's an easy solution or any solution at all, and it may actually be that you genuinely can't make this functionality accessible to certain user agents. Much as we strive to avoid it this does happen, and we should explore all the options on a case by case basis before reaching this conclusion. Steve -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Faulds Sent: 07 March 2007 22:13 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] PopUp windows How would you provide the additional information to these people? I thought that's what my question was? -- Tyssen Design www.tyssendesign.com.au Ph: (07) 3300 3303 Mb: 0405 678 590 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Talking about tabular data...
table captionTable of Malcontents/caption thead tr thName/th thComments/th /tr /thead tbody tr tdMe/td tdIs this tabular data?/td /tr tr tdMe supsmall2/small/sup/td tdShould this be a definition list?/td /tr tr tdMe supsmall3/small/sup/td tdWhat if I add a third/td tdcolumn?/td /tr tr tdMe supsmall4/small/sup/td tdIs it wrong to nest a table in a mailing list?/td /tr /tbody /table == The information contained in this email and any attachment is confidential and may contain legally privileged or copyright material. It is intended only for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are not permitted to disseminate, distribute or copy this email or any attachments. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete this email from your system. The ABC does not represent or warrant that this transmission is secure or virus free. Before opening any attachment you should check for viruses. The ABC's liability is limited to resupplying any email and attachments == *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] PopUp windows
Last time I looked at various implementations of lightbox none were accessible to the JAWS screen reader. I would be interested to know if things have improved since then. Steve -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Dixon Sent: 07 March 2007 20:29 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] PopUp windows Hi Bob, You may want to look at solutions like thickbox (http://jquery.com/demo/thickbox/) which offers a very degradable way to open faux popups, or floating divs, and also adds some nice animation in there too. This way, if the browser has javascript support (and it's enabled) then what the user gets is quite a fancy alternative to standard to popups (and it'll definately keep the client happy) and it will degrade nicely to simply open a new site (in the same window if you choose) if the JS support isnt there. There's also greybox (http://orangoo.com/labs/GreyBox/) which does a similar thing without the need for the jquery library. I've spent a good couple of weeks developing a solution on the prototype library that combines thickbox with lightbox (http://www.huddletogether.com/projects/lightbox2/) but its not yet ready for release as I havent fully stress tested it. Cheers, David. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] PopUp windows
At 3/7/2007 01:23 PM, John Faulds wrote: Can I ask what people view as the best option for presenting additional information on a form you're filling out? Ideally it would be visible on the page itself, but sometimes that's not possible and making the user click a link to another page and then back again can be an inconvenience if some of the info they've entered is removed (passwords etc.) Perhaps the most common rationale for pop-ups is to add new temporary content to an already-full page. To solve the problem without using pop-ups, one can link to blocks of content at the bottom of the current page, with reciprocal links to bring the user back to their starting sections (or they can simply click Back). This can be a good fundamental model for a non-visual interface, with visual enhancements added progressively. When javascript is running, morph the link to display the temporary content either in a sidebar or in an absolutely-positioned block that acts like a pop-up but is really just part of the current page, such as the larger image display in browsercam. Paul __ Paul Novitski Juniper Webcraft Ltd. http://juniperwebcraft.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] PopUp windows
Off-topic, in a way, but my heart sinks every time this question comes up. Because it comes up a lot. I would guess that it's the most frequently asked, discussed and argued-over question on this list. Do we have an FAQ? One of my favourite stats is that 30% of browser activity involves using the Back button AND that 30% of users have no idea what the Back button is or does. Where does that statistic come from? Do you have a citation for that? I watched one user testing session last year involving 14 people over 5 days. 10 people seemed convinced that pressing Escape would take them back one page. When told that the Back button would do that for them, 8 of them kept trying to use the Escape key. Without being rude, I'm rather skeptical about this, or at least I think we need to hear more detail. Who were these people? Had they ever used a browser before? How did they acquire this belief, when the evidence of their own eyes contradicted it? == The information contained in this email and any attachment is confidential and may contain legally privileged or copyright material. It is intended only for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are not permitted to disseminate, distribute or copy this email or any attachments. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete this email from your system. The ABC does not represent or warrant that this transmission is secure or virus free. Before opening any attachment you should check for viruses. The ABC's liability is limited to resupplying any email and attachments == *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] (X)HTML best practice cheat sheet
Good! Maybe it's interesting to note here that when working in real projects, it doesn't matter if the future is (X)HTML 5 or XHTML 2: the thing is that today (for example) XHTML 1.0 or HTML 4.2 works properly everyehere. I was unquiet not knowing what to read, and heard this these days while asking which is the future. I found it useful and reassuring, and it's not ignorating in what people are working now. Well, hope this helps a bit. Regards; Eugenio. On 3/7/07, Keryx Web [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This message has already been posted to the what-wg mailing list and to the wasp-edutf mailing list. Please forgive duplication and feel free to ignore... Hello yet again! For the benefit of myself and my students I have started to put together a cheat sheet of (X)HTML elements. Although only HTML 4.01 strict, XHTML 1.0 strict and XHMTL 1.1 Mobile are recommended to my students for use today, I include all of HTML 3.2, 4.01/X1.0 transitional/frameset, some XHTML 2.0 and all of (X)(HTML 5 as well as some proprietary elements as reference, to provide a historical perspective and some preparation for the future. Unlike other cheat sheets the emphasis is not on syntax, but on proper usage. Any feedback on my work is greatly appreciated. The cheat sheet is available (during development) at: http://keryx.se/wasp/html_elements_beta.pdf http://keryx.se/wasp/html_elements_beta.ods (Open Office Calc) It is primarily intended for print, but when it reaches 1.0 status, I will probably make an HTML version as well. A few notes: - I have grouped the elements according to how I teach. It may not reflect the way you think of them, and it does not reflect any spec. Known issue - I won't change it. - All advice is appreciated, but if it can't be boiled down into something short I can't use it. Please feel free to suggest a wording. - If you would like to give me feedback by changing the OO-document and mailing it to me, please use the versioning so I can track your suggestions and criticism. Many thanks. Lars Gunther P.S. I'll include anyone who provides feedback in the document. It currently says: The recommendations in the table above represents the personal opinion of Lars Gunther, although valuable suggestions have been provided by April Siegfried, Christian Montoya, Alexey Feldgendler and Simon Pieters. This list is intended to be used as a reference while coding (or seeing other's code) and as notes for learning (X)HTML. Strict doctypes that are supported by the browsers of today is recommended for normal web pages. XHTML 1.1 Mobile is recommended for pages primarily intended for cell phones and similar devices (WAP 2.0). Proprietary elements are included for reference if stumbled upon. A few XHTML 2.0 and most (X)HTML 5 elements are included as examples of where (X)HTML might be heading in the future. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] PopUp windows
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 8/03/2007 7:06:37 am and even fewer know that they can click it to open a new window/tab. And they, I suspect, would be the people least able to handle a new window spawned by the webpage. The back button is one of the first things people learn about browsers. I don't agree with that. One of my favourite stats is that 30% of browser activity involves using the Back button AND that 30% of users have no idea what the Back button is or does. I find this representative of the issues we're dealing with - the inherent contradictions of user behaviour. My favourite stat is the one that 97% of all stats are made up ;) The above message has been scanned and meets the Insurance Commission of Western Australia's Email security policy requirements for outbound transmission. This email (facsimile) and any attachments may be confidential and privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this email (facsimile) is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email (facsimile) in error please contact the Insurance Commission. Web: www.icwa.wa.gov.au Phone: +61 08 9264 * *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] PopUp windows
Steve Green wrote: Last time I looked at various implementations of lightbox none were accessible to the JAWS screen reader. I would be interested to know if things have improved since then. Steve I think they're hard for people with mobility issues (aka keyboard users) too. In checking out the first two that David sent, above, it wasn't easy to figure out how to close them. Finally did happen upon it and both were different and not what I would have expected. One closed with esc and the other you could get out of with backspace key or alt, arrow back. someone on another list said that hers would close with hitting the X on the keyboard. that gives three ways so far! also don't like that the image doesn't gradually load, there is no way to tell how big it is (how long its going to take to load and should I just opt out) and its boring just looking at the loading graphic going around. have been really irritated that browsercam is using this method but did figure out to turn off java script, just have to remember to turn it back on afterwards. i don't have mobility issues but one reason i think that i don't, and i'm pretty old and use the computer a lot, is that i do *so much* stuff with the keyboard. i can go a long time without touching the mouse and i do think its better - you're varying your actions much more with the keyboard. my two cents, cheers donna -- Donna Jones Portland, Maine 207 772 0266 www.westendwebs.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Talking about tabular data...
At 3/6/2007 05:51 PM, Thierry Koblentz wrote: President..John Smith Vice-president.Janet Jones In other words, the items in the two columns line up horizontally, and the cell on the left is filled out with dots. /quote I'm curious to know what members of this group think about this. Should this be considered tabular data or not? Do you consider a table the best tool to mark this up? Or at least as good as anything else? The example you present here is clearly two-column tabular data (whether marked up as a table or not). We live in that golden universe where markup and presentation are very (never completely) separate. The question of whether your table of officers is tabular data (duh) is independent of how it's presented. Is anyone actually suggesting that the presence or absence of the dots influences the determination of the semantic structure of the information? Yikes, Paul *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] PopUp windows
I describe an alternative approach to using pop-ups here : http://www.netlife.com.au/?p=8 It is hard to describe the benefits of not using pop-ups to some clients but in my mind it allows for a far more usable web - there has to be value in that. Brad - Original Message - From: Donna Jones [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 12:54 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] PopUp windows Steve Green wrote: Last time I looked at various implementations of lightbox none were accessible to the JAWS screen reader. I would be interested to know if things have improved since then. Steve I think they're hard for people with mobility issues (aka keyboard users) too. In checking out the first two that David sent, above, it wasn't easy to figure out how to close them. Finally did happen upon it and both were different and not what I would have expected. One closed with esc and the other you could get out of with backspace key or alt, arrow back. someone on another list said that hers would close with hitting the X on the keyboard. that gives three ways so far! also don't like that the image doesn't gradually load, there is no way to tell how big it is (how long its going to take to load and should I just opt out) and its boring just looking at the loading graphic going around. have been really irritated that browsercam is using this method but did figure out to turn off java script, just have to remember to turn it back on afterwards. i don't have mobility issues but one reason i think that i don't, and i'm pretty old and use the computer a lot, is that i do *so much* stuff with the keyboard. i can go a long time without touching the mouse and i do think its better - you're varying your actions much more with the keyboard. my two cents, cheers donna -- Donna Jones Portland, Maine 207 772 0266 www.westendwebs.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] PopUp windows
One of my favourite stats is that 30% of browser activity involves using the Back button AND that 30% of users have no idea what the Back button is or does. Where does that statistic come from? Do you have a citation for that? The former comes from L. Catledge and J. Pitkow, Characterizng Browsing Strategies in the World-Wide Web in Proceedings of the Third International World Wide Web Conference, Darmstadt, Germany (1995). Or so Steve Krug claims on page 58 of the 2nd edition of Don't Make Me Think, although HE says they said the Back button accounts for somewhere between 30 and 40 percent of all Web clicks. He could be making it up, of course. So could Catledge and Pitkow. The latter came from a lecture I attended at the University of Technology, Sydney in 2005. The lecturer did give source details but I didn't write them down, just the claimed statistic. A quick Google (looking for the source of that stat) came up with plenty of anecdotal claims along similar lines (and beyond) but nothing concrete. I don't claim that either statistic is true or representative, just that they are startling enough to jolt me out of the complacency that comes from believing that people know that or that anything is one of the first things people learn about browsers. To quote Krug again, all Web users are unique, and all Web use is basically idiosyncratic (p 128, op cit). I watched one user testing session last year involving 14 people over 5 days. 10 people seemed convinced that pressing Escape would take them back one page. When told that the Back button would do that for them, 8 of them kept trying to use the Escape key. Without being rude, I'm rather skeptical about this, or at least I think we need to hear more detail. Who were these people? Had they ever used a browser before? How did they acquire this belief, when the evidence of their own eyes contradicted it? Well, that's the point, isn't it? It IS shocking, and you can be as skeptical as you like. Doesn't change what a group of people in a room at Parramatta in June 2006 did, though. The dominant answer when asked about this behaviour amounted to escape = undo. There seemed to be a mix of keyboard-dominant users (which might go some way to explaining the emphasis on the Escape key) and mouse users (some of whom also pressed the Escape key). They couldn't see what each other was doing. They weren't selected for browsing ability, and seemed to me to be a fair mix of experience and inexperience. We used IE only (no-one raised this an an issue). I haven't seen this repeated in the eight other user testing sessions I've been involved with, but I no way discount the value of having seen this happen. You can, if you like. As to how people acquire a belief when the evidence of their own eyes contradict it, go and ask them, John. I suggest you leave your skepticism at the door. Without being rude, you might learn something about your own users. Observational testing should be required practice for anyone building websites, I would have thought, especially to explore the practical applications of implementing standards (which for the record I am keen on but a long way from achieving). Ricky *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] PopUp windows
and the web, users and people have changed a lot since 1995, I would say so much so that that stat would know be unreliable... [EMAIL PROTECTED] 8/03/2007 1:19:56 pm One of my favourite stats is that 30% of browser activity involves using the Back button AND that 30% of users have no idea what the Back button is or does. Where does that statistic come from? Do you have a citation for that? The former comes from L. Catledge and J. Pitkow, Characterizng Browsing Strategies in the World-Wide Web in Proceedings of the Third International World Wide Web Conference, Darmstadt, Germany (1995). The above message has been scanned and meets the Insurance Commission of Western Australia's Email security policy requirements for outbound transmission. This email (facsimile) and any attachments may be confidential and privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this email (facsimile) is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email (facsimile) in error please contact the Insurance Commission. Web: www.icwa.wa.gov.au Phone: +61 08 9264 * *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Talking about tabular data...
I'm curious to know what members of this group think about this. Should this be considered tabular data or not? Do you consider a table the best tool to mark this up? Or at least as good as anything else? I think a definition list fits better, even though it's a slight abuse of DL it does basically define each title as the person in it (better than the other way around I guess ;)). That said, I can see it as a table too - just a really simple one. Tabular data with just one row of data, so to speak. I'd really lean towards setting it up with two headings: position and name. It does end up being a bit of a gut feel thing though. A bit like can a list have just one item? Sort of... not much of a list, but is it invalid? Probably not, particularly if there's an expectation of adding more items. cheers, Ben -- --- http://www.200ok.com.au/ --- The future has arrived; it's just not --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] PopUp windows
David, Cool. Thanks for the tip. I'll do a demo for the client today, I'm sure he'll be blown away. Bob Hi Bob, You may want to look at solutions like thickbox (http://jquery.com/ demo/thickbox/) which offers a very degradable way to open faux popups, or floating divs, and also adds some nice animation in there too. This way, if the browser has javascript support (and it's enabled) then what the user gets is quite a fancy alternative to standard to popups (and it'll definately keep the client happy) and it will degrade nicely to simply open a new site (in the same window if you choose) if the JS support isnt there. There's also greybox (http://orangoo.com/labs/GreyBox/) which does a similar thing without the need for the jquery library. I've spent a good couple of weeks developing a solution on the prototype library that combines thickbox with lightbox (http:// www.huddletogether.com/projects/lightbox2/) but its not yet ready for release as I havent fully stress tested it. Cheers, David. Bob Schwartz wrote: Problem: client wants (insists on having) popup windows. Question: can they be made OK according to all canons of WSG? (ie served in a different/alternative manner for people, devices, etc. - leave aside the js argument, as that I have solved). *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Talking about tabular data...
What for you makes a list of name/value pairs tabular data? Besides the fact that name/value is an example of what would go inside some ths? Or in this case name and position. I guess the situation I'm forced to wonder about in regards to your stance on this is this: You have a 3 column table: NamePosition Age John SmithPresident 70 Jane Doe CFO 65 And after filling up this table, someone decides, you know, having the age in there is really pretty pointless, so they remove that column from the table. Does/should this make it stop being tabular data? Finally, something I disagree with Thierry on! *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Out of Office AutoReply: digest for wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Hi, I am currently out of the office and out of town. If you need anything, please contact Carmen Cano. I'll be back on Monday, March 12. - Nicole *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
