Re: [WSG] How z-index works

[Tee G. Peng]

Thierry, excellent work! This is a good case of a picture worth  
thousand words - I think I pretty much understand how z-index works  
(after many hours of testing and an assignment from the CSS.2.1  
class)  but I still not able to get a comprehensive understanding  
from that article on z-index.


On Oct 29, 2007, at 10:57 PM, Thierry Koblentz wrote:



Hi John.
Sorry to hear that, but I don't know what to say as nobody else has  
reported

having problems :(



You may want to have your web host take a look. It may be DNS caching  
(not sure if it's correct word) with your IP address. I encountered  
this problem with sites from Asia and Europe , because I really  
wanted to see the sites, so I reported the problem, and suggested  
them contact their web hosts. After that I was able to get the sites  
loaded.


You maybe able to find out yourself from dnsstuff.com by entering  
your IP address, then report to your webhost. The first time I  
couldn't see a site and the site owner had no idea why, someone from  
another list told me to look up the IP address of that site to look  
for anomaly, thus I was able to tell the site owner to seek help from  
his webhost.



tee


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RE: [WSG] SilverLight

[Frank Palinkas]

Thanks Christian,

Agreed, more work has to be done. One problem I find with this is that the
build-generated (X)HTML pages are not contained within a packaged vehicle, as
in a .swf, etc. These free-standing pages are at the mercy of the Silverlight
plug-in being installed on the user's OS, and at this time, it only caters
for the Trident and Gecko range of browser/user agents. I'm not a managed
code expert by any means, so I do stand to be corrected here.

I've been through something similar before, experimenting with XML and XSLT +
CSS to produce single-sourced user assistance and developer technical
documentation. For instance, needing a javascript interpreter to sniff out
which browser is active and then override the OS generic XSLT processor to
allow a page to render in the chosen browser with its own XSLT processor.
Even so, the pages I created with this method all had their structure,
presentation and content dynamically generated, as in the Silverlight
example, and of no use (at this stage) beyond the graphic rendering.

I think that Gez Lemon from The Paciello Group has looked into the
accessibility aspects of these early versions of Silverlight, but am not
aware of his findings yet.

Kind regards,

Frank


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Christian Montoya
Sent: Tuesday, 30 October, 2007 7:48 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] SilverLight

On 10/30/07, Frank Palinkas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> From an accessibility aspect, a screen scrapper maybe be able to do its
job.
> However, any attempt to work the markup will be futile.

Obviously this wouldn't be as easy as understanding plain HTML markup,
but what I was saying was that a device could refer to Scene.xaml.js
and parse that to get the relevant content/actions/etc. It's just
slightly better than having to look at a .swf to figure out what's
going on.

New work will have to be done to make sense of Silverlight but the
process should be easier than anything Adobe did with Flash... not
that I'm bashing Flash here.

-- 
--
Christian Montoya
christianmontoya.net


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Re: [WSG] SilverLight

[Philippe Wittenbergh]

On Oct 30, 2007, at 3:21 PM, Michael MD wrote:

The Silverlight build process produces a .dll. You need the  
Silverlight
plug-in to render the resulting html page. Also, from a quick  
test, it will
only render in IE and the Gecko range. Forget Opera, Safari for  
windows, etc.


If they are really serious about getting people to use Silverlight  
they need to provide the plugin for a wide range of popular browers  
and operating systems.. (definately including Safari, Opera, Mac  
browsers, Linux browsers, etc )
...until then I can't see why I should bother with it...  (of did I  
miss something?)


Well, the release version of the plugin actually works in Safari (and  
WebKit builds) and Gecko Mac (SeaMonkey, Camino, even Firefox). iCab  
and Opera (Mac, 9.23 and 9.5 beta) are not supported.


In the beta process, they were doing some flipping browser detection  
**from within the plugin**, and only checked for Safari or Firefox,  
as opposed to check for Gecko.
The demos I've seen still only work half and half on Mac browsers,  
except Firefox 2.0.0.x and Safari.


Philippe
---
Philippe Wittenbergh






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Re: [WSG] SilverLight

[Matthew Cruickshank]

Travis D. Falls wrote:

So I have to ask... what do you all think of SilverLight... do you think it
is just another way to do Flash work in a different Tech. or will it be
more?
  


Another way of doing the same stuff.

The backend tech of Silverlight is a minimal install of .Net, so you get 
a few decent languages (C#, Boo).


XAML is good tech, but according to some developer friends (and this 
isn't first-hand knowledge so I can't vouch for it) this gui language 
has accessibility problems.


Adobe/Firefox are countering with Tamarin which can run Javascript and 
.Net (including Python/Ruby .Net variants) in the browser.


Adobe have Flash/Flex as the user interface.

Firefox has XUL/SVG/HTML5 as the user interface.

(sorry this is a such a rushed post -- I'm late for a bus)


.Matthew Cruickshank
http://docvert.org/













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Re: [WSG] SilverLight

[Michael MD]

The Silverlight build process produces a .dll. You need the Silverlight
plug-in to render the resulting html page. Also, from a quick test, it 
will
only render in IE and the Gecko range. Forget Opera, Safari for windows, 
etc.


If they are really serious about getting people to use Silverlight they need 
to provide the plugin for a wide range of popular browers and operating 
systems.. (definately including Safari, Opera, Mac browsers, Linux browsers, 
etc )
...until then I can't see why I should bother with it...  (of did I miss 
something?)










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Re: [WSG] CSS display: none has SEO impact?

[Alexander Gounder]

Hi everyone,

The Fact is that SEOs use this CSS feature (display:none) for cloaking which
is a Black Hat SEO technique.

Further the whole idea of you showing something(h1-3 tags filled with
Keywords) to Google or any Search bot and hiding these from you end user
speaks very bad about your intentions...

Instead if your using this for some other purpose and the effect of this can
be viewed by the end user then its not considered cloaking and google is
quite intelligent to know that but the same can't be said about other search
engines.

So you need to decide on this depending on where your traffic is coming
from.

Thanks
Alexander,
Web Designer and SEO in Mumbai, India
http://www.ecreeds.com

On 10/29/07, Simon Cockayne < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I am sure I read that CSS's display: none has a detrimental on SEO.
>
> Is this true* or did I dream it?
>
> *To clarify...I am keen to know if it is true that there is a
> detrimental impact...not whether it is true that I read it or not.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Simon
>
>
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RE: [WSG] How z-index works

[Thierry Koblentz]

>> I'd appreciate any comments that would help me improve this "tool":
>>
http://tjkdesign.com/articles/z-index/teach_yourself_how_elements_stack.asp

> OK, this is obviously not an isolated occurrence anymore. I've tried to  
> look at your site 3 times now in the last couple of weeks Thierry and can

> never get it to load.

Hi John.
Sorry to hear that, but I don't know what to say as nobody else has reported
having problems :(

-- 
Regards,
Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com






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Re: [WSG] SilverLight

[Christian Montoya]

On 10/30/07, Frank Palinkas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> From an accessibility aspect, a screen scrapper maybe be able to do its job.
> However, any attempt to work the markup will be futile.

Obviously this wouldn't be as easy as understanding plain HTML markup,
but what I was saying was that a device could refer to Scene.xaml.js
and parse that to get the relevant content/actions/etc. It's just
slightly better than having to look at a .swf to figure out what's
going on.

New work will have to be done to make sense of Silverlight but the
process should be easier than anything Adobe did with Flash... not
that I'm bashing Flash here.

-- 
--
Christian Montoya
christianmontoya.net


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Re: [WSG] SilverLight

[Christian Montoya]

On 10/30/07, Derek Featherstone <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 10/29/07, Christian Montoya wrote:
>
> >... Silverlight is rendered XML while Flash is a compiled format.
> >Therefore, Microsoft claims that Silverlight is much easier for screen
> >readers, search spiders, etc. to work with.
>
> Christian - do you have a reference for that anywhere? I'd be really
> interested in seeing it (as I'm sure others would be too!)

Just read the spec on XAML, which is what Silverlight uses:
http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms752059.aspx

-- 
--
Christian Montoya
christianmontoya.net


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RE: [WSG] SilverLight

[Frank Palinkas]

Interesting. Some observations.

I downloaded and installed the Silverlight SDK 1.0. I built the example
project in VS 2005 running on WinXP Pro SP2 with no problems. However, it
would be better to run this on Vista with the Orcas Beta (VS 2008) because of
the generic XAML, WPF and .Net 3.0 and 3.5 frameworks inherent within those
platforms.

The Silverlight build process produces a .dll. You need the Silverlight
plug-in to render the resulting html page. Also, from a quick test, it will
only render in IE and the Gecko range. Forget Opera, Safari for windows, etc.
>From an accessibility aspect, a screen scrapper maybe be able to do its job.
However, any attempt to work the markup will be futile. The Default.htm web
page renders a "Click Me" button. Here is the markup behind the Default.htm
page produced by the build:

///

http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml";>

FrankSilverlight_1









createSilverlight();





//

Everything is dynamically rendered by the javascript. This reminded me of the
need to use javascript (Sarissa library) to dynamically render XML via XSLT
in a multi-browser environment on a windows operating system.

If anyone wants the Silverlight project package that produces this, please
let me know and I'll zip and email it to you.

Kind regards,

Frank

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Travis D. Falls
Sent: Tuesday, 30 October, 2007 5:52 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] SilverLight

I know from a developer stand point... the .NET languages (C# VB.NET
IronPython etc) and XAML are a lot nicer to use.  I hate ActionScript.  Lol
Great angle to look at though...

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Christian Montoya
Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 11:26 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] SilverLight

On 10/29/07, Travis D. Falls <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> So I have to ask... what do you all think of SilverLight... do you think
it
> is just another way to do Flash work in a different Tech. or will it be
> more?

It's a little more. I've been looking into it and the distinct
difference between Silverlight and Flash is that Silverlight is
rendered XML while Flash is a compiled format. Therefore, Microsoft
claims that Silverlight is much easier for screen readers, search
spiders, etc. to work with. We'll see if things really do work out
that way.

-- 
--
Christian Montoya
Rhristianmontoya.net


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Re: [WSG] SilverLight

[Derek Featherstone]

On 10/29/07, Christian Montoya wrote:

>... Silverlight is rendered XML while Flash is a compiled format.
>Therefore, Microsoft claims that Silverlight is much easier for screen
>readers, search spiders, etc. to work with.

Christian - do you have a reference for that anywhere? I'd be really
interested in seeing it (as I'm sure others would be too!)

Thanks, in advance...
Derek.
-- 
Derek Featherstone   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
tel: +1 613-599-9784  1-866-932-4878 (toll-free in North America)
Work:  http://www.furtherahead.com
Blog:  http://www.boxofchocolates.ca
Learn: http://north.webdirections.org


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Re: [WSG] CSS display: none has SEO impact?

[Michael MD]

I highly doubt that presentational styles will effect SEO.

When you use display:none you are not removing the
content from the source, you are just hiding it from
users viewing the web page.

If you was to remove the element from the source using
DOM that would be different.


not if you are talking about client-side scripts ...
for the robots not to see it it would have to be removed from the html they 
fetch from your web server.


Most of them would just ignore css... except maybe google to check if 
you are hiding something :-)






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RE: [WSG] SilverLight

[Travis D. Falls]

I know from a developer stand point... the .NET languages (C# VB.NET
IronPython etc) and XAML are a lot nicer to use.  I hate ActionScript.  Lol
Great angle to look at though...

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Christian Montoya
Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 11:26 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] SilverLight

On 10/29/07, Travis D. Falls <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> So I have to ask... what do you all think of SilverLight... do you think
it
> is just another way to do Flash work in a different Tech. or will it be
> more?

It's a little more. I've been looking into it and the distinct
difference between Silverlight and Flash is that Silverlight is
rendered XML while Flash is a compiled format. Therefore, Microsoft
claims that Silverlight is much easier for screen readers, search
spiders, etc. to work with. We'll see if things really do work out
that way.

-- 
--
Christian Montoya
christianmontoya.net


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Re: [WSG] SilverLight

[Christian Montoya]

On 10/29/07, Travis D. Falls <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> So I have to ask... what do you all think of SilverLight... do you think it
> is just another way to do Flash work in a different Tech. or will it be
> more?

It's a little more. I've been looking into it and the distinct
difference between Silverlight and Flash is that Silverlight is
rendered XML while Flash is a compiled format. Therefore, Microsoft
claims that Silverlight is much easier for screen readers, search
spiders, etc. to work with. We'll see if things really do work out
that way.

-- 
--
Christian Montoya
christianmontoya.net


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Re: [WSG] Re: worst site I've seen lately

[Patrick H. Lauke]

Hayden's Harness Attachment wrote:
As a JAWS user, I could not view the web site. JAWS kept blocking the 


I nearly fell into a common trap and said "as a JAWS user, why would you 
visit a site that showcases typefaces", but then caught myself just in 
time. Of course, you may be visiting it to purchase a typeface (either 
for your own use, or purchasing it for a company/colleague).


P
--
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
__
Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
__
Take it to the streets ... join the WaSP Street Team
http://streetteam.webstandards.org/
__


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[WSG] SilverLight

[Travis D. Falls]

So I have to ask... what do you all think of SilverLight... do you think it
is just another way to do Flash work in a different Tech. or will it be
more?

Travis




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[WSG] card sort with disabled users (OT?)

[Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media]]

Hi guys,

I am not quite sure if this one's off topic (it probably is), but it might
be interesting for many of us. Let's see how far we can take it...
 
I am working on a website that targets people with many different
disabilities. So that will include users with visual, mental, hearing or
physical impairments.

The website has got quite a large amount of content, so in a normal
situation I would conduct a card sort to get feedback from all target groups
as to how to structure the information. But I am wrecking my brain at the
moment how to best put this into practice with the group of users I have.
Using normal index cards for the card sort probably won't be a good idea in
particular for some of the visually disabled users. Also normally I would
let the users create new cards/categories by writing on the index cards, but
this could be a problem with some of the physically disabled users. 

Of course I could set up a different way of conducting the card sort for
each of the groups, but that might end up in a pile of work for myself. So I
am wondering if there is an accessible website/software out there that
allows me to conduct a card sort?

Something that displays the "cards" in large font, that lets users create
their own "cards" and that lets users shuffle the cards around. LOL. Just
writing this makes me realize that I am probably dreaming if I think
something like that exists.

Maybe somebody has got a different suggestion on how to achieve this?

Thanks heaps.

Andreas.


Andreas Boehmer
User Experience Consultant

Addictive Media
323/55 Flemington Rd
North Melbourne 3051

Phone: (03) 9386 8907
Fax: (03) 9348 9287
Mobile: 0411 097 038

http://www.addictivemedia.com.au
Consulting | Accessibility | Usability | Development 





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Re: [WSG] Re: worst site I've seen lately

[Hayden's Harness Attachment]

As a JAWS user, I could not view the web site. JAWS kept 
blocking the Flash.


--
Love Hayden (Super Duper Guide Dog)and
The harness attachment Angus MacKinnon
MacKinnon Crest Saying
Latin -  Audentes Fortuna Juvat
English - Fortune Assists The Daring
Web page http://www.infoforce-services.com


It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and 
the Bible.

George Washington

- Original Message - 
From: "John Faulds" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 5:19 PM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Re: worst site I've seen lately



http://www.ourtype.be/

On Tue, 30 Oct 2007 09:57:02 +1000, Travis D. Falls 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


I missed the URL for this. can someone send it out again? 
I want to see

what has everyone in a tizzy.  J


travis


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On

Behalf Of Chris Wilson
Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 4:26 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Re: worst site I've seen lately



I have to agree. Not everything has to be so damn usable 
that it has no
visual flair, something that, sadly, tends to be the norm 
on this list.  This

is neat if only because it's quite unique.



On 10/29/07, Olly Hodgson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

On 10/29/07, Rob Mason <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:

My eyes, my beautiful eyes...it burns.


I actually quite like it.

It's nice to see someone trying something slightly away 
from the norm.
OK, so they don't quite pull it off -- the mad scrolling 
stuff could
do with being toned down a little (perhaps a bit of 
motion blurring?)
and some of the UI design is just plain silly, but 
generally, not a

bad effort. I've certainly seen a lot worse.

Besides, what's not to like about a site that employs 
lines like
"Value-added red noses maximize a plan to vigorously 
deliver

multilevel hairdryers." in place of lipsum? ;)


--
Olly
http://thinkdrastic.net/


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--
Tyssen Design
www.tyssendesign.com.au
Ph: (07) 3300 3303
Mb: 0405 678 590



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Re: [WSG] CSS display: none has SEO impact?

[John Faulds]

So the question is still open for me, and I'm curious; what is your
source of information for thinking that the big G only looks at inline  
CSS?


It was a couple of years ago that I came across articles that suggested  
this (I can't remember if anyone provided hard evidence to back it up). So  
I've been working on that assumption since and haven't seen any adverse  
SEO effects on sites I've worked on that have used various techniques that  
might be viewed dubiously by SEs (image replacement, dropdowns, offset  
headings/labels etc.).



--
Tyssen Design
www.tyssendesign.com.au
Ph: (07) 3300 3303
Mb: 0405 678 590



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Re: [WSG] Re: worst site I've seen lately

[John Faulds]

http://www.ourtype.be/

On Tue, 30 Oct 2007 09:57:02 +1000, Travis D. Falls  
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



I missed the URL for this. can someone send it out again?  I want to see
what has everyone in a tizzy.  J


travis


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Chris Wilson
Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 4:26 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Re: worst site I've seen lately



I have to agree. Not everything has to be so damn usable that it has no
visual flair, something that, sadly, tends to be the norm on this list.  
This

is neat if only because it's quite unique.



On 10/29/07, Olly Hodgson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

On 10/29/07, Rob Mason <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

My eyes, my beautiful eyes...it burns.


I actually quite like it.

It's nice to see someone trying something slightly away from the norm.
OK, so they don't quite pull it off -- the mad scrolling stuff could
do with being toned down a little (perhaps a bit of motion blurring?)
and some of the UI design is just plain silly, but generally, not a
bad effort. I've certainly seen a lot worse.

Besides, what's not to like about a site that employs lines like
"Value-added red noses maximize a plan to vigorously deliver
multilevel hairdryers." in place of lipsum? ;)


--
Olly
http://thinkdrastic.net/


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Re: [WSG] How z-index works

[John Faulds]

Yeah, it's not a browser issue. Definitely something to do with my  
location I think. I provided a link to an article on the site on a forum  
recently (from bookmarks) and other people could see it OK, but I couldn't.


On Tue, 30 Oct 2007 09:53:33 +1000, David Laakso  
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



John Faulds wrote:
OK, this is obviously not an isolated occurrence anymore. I've tried to  
look at your site 3 times now in the last couple of weeks Thierry and  
can never get it to load.


On Tue, 30 Oct 2007 00:52:32 +1000, Thierry Koblentz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
wrote:















mac os x v 10.4.10
camino/1.5.2

xp ie/6.0 parallels desktop



No problem whatsoever  loading here.

Best,

dL







--
Tyssen Design
www.tyssendesign.com.au
Ph: (07) 3300 3303
Mb: 0405 678 590



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Re: [WSG] Re: worst site I've seen lately

[David Laakso]

Travis D. Falls wrote:


I missed the URL for this… can someone send it out again? I want to 
see what has everyone in a tizzy. J


travis



Sure.



le triumph de mediocre
-- baudelaire

Best,
~dL


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Re: [WSG] CSS display: none has SEO impact?

[Rick Lecoat]

On 30/10/07 (23:52) John said:

>This might prove useful - http://www.seomoz.org/blog/guide-to-hidden-text
>
>My understanding is that yes, SEs do view some use of CSS dubiously, but  
>it's also been my understanding that it only applies to inline CSS (not  
>external stylesheets) and as an added safety measure, you can always add  
>your CSS directory to your robots.txt.

Very interesting article, thanks for the heads-up John.
About a year ago I tried hard to get a definitive answer out of a
particular SEO forum's denizens with regard to whether Google was able
to trawl through external style sheets or not; nobody was able to provide one.
So the question is still open for me, and I'm curious; what is your
source of information for thinking that the big G only looks at inline CSS?
Cheers;
-- 
Rick Lecoat



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RE: [WSG] Re: worst site I've seen lately

[Travis D. Falls]

I missed the URL for this. can someone send it out again?  I want to see
what has everyone in a tizzy.  J

 

travis

 

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Chris Wilson
Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 4:26 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Re: worst site I've seen lately

 


I have to agree. Not everything has to be so damn usable that it has no
visual flair, something that, sadly, tends to be the norm on this list. This
is neat if only because it's quite unique.



On 10/29/07, Olly Hodgson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

On 10/29/07, Rob Mason <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> My eyes, my beautiful eyes...it burns.

I actually quite like it. 

It's nice to see someone trying something slightly away from the norm.
OK, so they don't quite pull it off -- the mad scrolling stuff could
do with being toned down a little (perhaps a bit of motion blurring?) 
and some of the UI design is just plain silly, but generally, not a
bad effort. I've certainly seen a lot worse.

Besides, what's not to like about a site that employs lines like
"Value-added red noses maximize a plan to vigorously deliver 
multilevel hairdryers." in place of lipsum? ;)


--
Olly
http://thinkdrastic.net/


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Re: [WSG] How z-index works

[David Laakso]

John Faulds wrote:
OK, this is obviously not an isolated occurrence anymore. I've tried 
to look at your site 3 times now in the last couple of weeks Thierry 
and can never get it to load.


On Tue, 30 Oct 2007 00:52:32 +1000, Thierry Koblentz 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



I'd appreciate any comments that would help me improve this "tool":
http://tjkdesign.com/articles/z-index/teach_yourself_how_elements_stack.asp 



Thanks,











mac os x v 10.4.10
camino/1.5.2

xp ie/6.0 parallels desktop



No problem whatsoever  loading here.

Best,

dL



--
http://chelseacreekstudio.com/



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Re: [WSG] CSS display: none has SEO impact?

[Jixor - Stephen I]

Adding your css directory to your robots.txt would certainly be an 
assurance, unless search engines started to attach screencaps to search 
results. I was going to say it would be a great idea for future proofing 
however now I'm wondering.


John Faulds wrote:

This might prove useful - http://www.seomoz.org/blog/guide-to-hidden-text

My understanding is that yes, SEs do view some use of CSS dubiously, 
but it's also been my understanding that it only applies to inline CSS 
(not external stylesheets) and as an added safety measure, you can 
always add your CSS directory to your robots.txt.




On Tue, 30 Oct 2007 01:46:07 +1000, Simon Cockayne 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



Hi,

I am sure I read that CSS's display: none has a detrimental on SEO.

Is this true* or did I dream it?

*To clarify...I am keen to know if it is true that there is a
detrimental impact...not whether it is true that I read it or not.

Cheers,

Simon


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Re: [WSG] CSS display: none has SEO impact?

[John Faulds]

This might prove useful - http://www.seomoz.org/blog/guide-to-hidden-text

My understanding is that yes, SEs do view some use of CSS dubiously, but  
it's also been my understanding that it only applies to inline CSS (not  
external stylesheets) and as an added safety measure, you can always add  
your CSS directory to your robots.txt.




On Tue, 30 Oct 2007 01:46:07 +1000, Simon Cockayne  
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



Hi,

I am sure I read that CSS's display: none has a detrimental on SEO.

Is this true* or did I dream it?

*To clarify...I am keen to know if it is true that there is a
detrimental impact...not whether it is true that I read it or not.

Cheers,

Simon


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Tyssen Design
www.tyssendesign.com.au
Ph: (07) 3300 3303
Mb: 0405 678 590



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Re: [WSG] Re: worst site I've seen lately

[Christian Montoya]

On 10/29/07, Andrew Boyd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Paul,
>
> There are bits about it I liked too - I would have done it differently, but I 
> think that it achieves what they set out to do - talk up their fonts to those 
> that want to buy them.

That may be true, but I can't actually suffer the UI enough to look
through their catalog. Maybe my tolerance for pain is lower than
yours. It's just too hard to go through them all.

-- 
--
Christian Montoya
christianmontoya.net


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Re: [WSG] Re: worst site I've seen lately

[John Faulds]

I actually quite like it.


I thought it was pretty cool too. A bit of experimentation shows that  
there's actually been a fair bit of work put into font-previewing  
interface. Definitely nowhere near the worst site I've seen recently.



--
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www.tyssendesign.com.au
Ph: (07) 3300 3303
Mb: 0405 678 590



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Re: [WSG] How z-index works

[John Faulds]

OK, this is obviously not an isolated occurrence anymore. I've tried to  
look at your site 3 times now in the last couple of weeks Thierry and can  
never get it to load.


On Tue, 30 Oct 2007 00:52:32 +1000, Thierry Koblentz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
wrote:



I'd appreciate any comments that would help me improve this "tool":
http://tjkdesign.com/articles/z-index/teach_yourself_how_elements_stack.asp

Thanks,




--
Tyssen Design
www.tyssendesign.com.au
Ph: (07) 3300 3303
Mb: 0405 678 590



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RE: [WSG] Re: worst site I've seen lately

[Andrew Boyd]

Hi Paul,

There are bits about it I liked too - I would have done it differently, but I 
think that it achieves what they set out to do - talk up their fonts to those 
that want to buy them.

I think that the thread just goes to prove that:
- communication is about effective information transfer rather than our idea of 
what communication should be (rather like art in that respect), and accordingly
- we tread a fine line when dictating "best practices" to others. Sometimes 
they are appropriate, and at other times, they can be so prescriptive as to be 
useless.

Best regards, Andrew

Andrew Boyd
Consultant
SMS Management & Technology

M 0413 048 542
T +61 2 6279 7100
F +61 2 6279 7101
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
About SMS: Ground Floor, 8 Brindabella Circuit, CANBERRA AIRPORT  ACT  2609  
www.smsmt.com
SMS Management & Technology (SMS) [ASX:SMX] is Australia's largest, publicly 
listed Management Services company. We solve complex problems and transform 
business through Consulting, People and Technology

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Bennett [EMAIL 
PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, 30 October 2007 7:50 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] Re: worst site I've seen lately

The blinking was really annoying (and it was everywhere!), as was the very 
small text.

What I liked was the live rendering of the fonts and the ability to select a 
font and actually be able to type with it, see it at different font sizes etc - 
very handy (I've seen this on another font site too, but I can't recall the url)

The orange scroll bar was a bit of a downer, especially seeing as it was right 
next to the old handy browser scrollbar

In terms of bad flash, weird UI and 'mystery meat navigation', take a look at 
this...
http://matterhorn.co.nz/

I have a feeling this thread is 'weaving' off-topic :)


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RE: [WSG] Re: worst site I've seen lately

[Paul Bennett]

The blinking was really annoying (and it was everywhere!), as was the very 
small text.

What I liked was the live rendering of the fonts and the ability to select a 
font and actually be able to type with it, see it at different font sizes etc - 
very handy (I've seen this on another font site too, but I can't recall the url)
 
The orange scroll bar was a bit of a downer, especially seeing as it was right 
next to the old handy browser scrollbar

In terms of bad flash, weird UI and 'mystery meat navigation', take a look at 
this...
http://matterhorn.co.nz/

I have a feeling this thread is 'weaving' off-topic :)


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Re: [WSG] Re: worst site I've seen lately

[Chris Wilson]

I have to agree. Not everything has to be so damn usable that it has no
visual flair, something that, sadly, tends to be the norm on this list. This
is neat if only because it's quite unique.


On 10/29/07, Olly Hodgson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> On 10/29/07, Rob Mason <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > My eyes, my beautiful eyes...it burns.
>
> I actually quite like it.
>
> It's nice to see someone trying something slightly away from the norm.
> OK, so they don't quite pull it off -- the mad scrolling stuff could
> do with being toned down a little (perhaps a bit of motion blurring?)
> and some of the UI design is just plain silly, but generally, not a
> bad effort. I've certainly seen a lot worse.
>
> Besides, what's not to like about a site that employs lines like
> "Value-added red noses maximize a plan to vigorously deliver
> multilevel hairdryers." in place of lipsum? ;)
>
>
> --
> Olly
> http://thinkdrastic.net/
>
>
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Re: [WSG] CSS display: none has SEO impact?

[Karl Lurman]

In most cases, positioning the element off left of screen is a much
better approach than display:none. Accessibility does not mean that
all css is ignored, and in this case, display:none will probably be
adhered to by a screenreader.

If you can absolutely position an element, set it's "left" property to
be a negative "em" value, e.g:

.hideLeft {
  position:absolute;
  left:-999em;
 ...
}

Alternatively, sometimes a text-indent will also work (especially if
your absolute element is inside another absolute/relative element)

.hideLeft {
  text-indent:-999em;
  ...
}

Karl

On 10/30/07, James Jeffery <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Toney i was speaking in general, i didn't realize he was talking about
> hiding keywords from visual view but so spiders see them.
>
> I though he was on about "Would hiding elements, such as replacing
> navigation text with images, effect search engine spiders and would
> the see the navigation text".
>
> I am fully aware SEO abuse, i didn't know he was referencing to that,
> my mistake.
>
> James
>
>
> On 10/29/07, Dave Woods <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > It depends what you're using it for. If it's for black hat search
> > engine tactics which will contain keywords then yes it's bad as it can
> > get you completely banned from Google.
> >
> > If it's for hiding an element of the page which you'll then be
> > displaying using either CSS or JavaScript then it's not neccesarily
> > bad for search engines but can be bad for accessibility as screen
> > readers will ignore it so you'd be better off using negative text
> > indent or negative absolute positioning.
> >
> > It depends on what situation you're using it for but yes it can be bad
> > if used wrongly.
> >
> > Thanks
> > Dave
> >
> > - - - - - - - - - -
> > http://www.dave-woods.co.uk
> >
> >
> > On 29/10/2007, James Jeffery <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > I highly doubt that presentational styles will effect SEO.
> > >
> > > When you use display:none you are not removing the
> > > content from the source, you are just hiding it from
> > > users viewing the web page.
> > >
> > > If you was to remove the element from the source using
> > > DOM that would be different.
> > >
> > > James
> > >
> > >
> > > On 10/29/07, Tony Crockford <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > On 29 Oct 2007, at 15:46, Simon Cockayne wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hi,
> > > > >
> > > > > I am sure I read that CSS's display: none has a detrimental on SEO.
> > > > >
> > > > > Is this true* or did I dream it?
> > > > >
> > > > > *To clarify...I am keen to know if it is true that there is a
> > > > > detrimental impact...not whether it is true that I read it or not.
> > > >
> > > > Google specifically caution against hiding text with CSS:
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> http://www.google.com/support/webmasters/bin/answer.py?answer=66353
> > > >
> > > > is that what you meant?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> ***
> > > > List Guidelines:
> > > http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
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Re: [WSG] Re: worst site I've seen lately

[Olly Hodgson]

On 10/29/07, Rob Mason <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> My eyes, my beautiful eyes...it burns.

I actually quite like it.

It's nice to see someone trying something slightly away from the norm.
OK, so they don't quite pull it off -- the mad scrolling stuff could
do with being toned down a little (perhaps a bit of motion blurring?)
and some of the UI design is just plain silly, but generally, not a
bad effort. I've certainly seen a lot worse.

Besides, what's not to like about a site that employs lines like
"Value-added red noses maximize a plan to vigorously deliver
multilevel hairdryers." in place of lipsum? ;)


-- 
Olly
http://thinkdrastic.net/


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Re: [WSG] CSS display: none has SEO impact?

[James Jeffery]

Toney i was speaking in general, i didn't realize he was talking about
hiding keywords from visual view but so spiders see them.

I though he was on about "Would hiding elements, such as replacing
navigation text with images, effect search engine spiders and would
the see the navigation text".

I am fully aware SEO abuse, i didn't know he was referencing to that,
my mistake.

James

On 10/29/07, Dave Woods <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> It depends what you're using it for. If it's for black hat search
> engine tactics which will contain keywords then yes it's bad as it can
> get you completely banned from Google.
>
> If it's for hiding an element of the page which you'll then be
> displaying using either CSS or JavaScript then it's not neccesarily
> bad for search engines but can be bad for accessibility as screen
> readers will ignore it so you'd be better off using negative text
> indent or negative absolute positioning.
>
> It depends on what situation you're using it for but yes it can be bad
> if used wrongly.
>
> Thanks
> Dave
>
> - - - - - - - - - -
> http://www.dave-woods.co.uk
>
>
> On 29/10/2007, James Jeffery <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I highly doubt that presentational styles will effect SEO.
> >
> > When you use display:none you are not removing the
> > content from the source, you are just hiding it from
> > users viewing the web page.
> >
> > If you was to remove the element from the source using
> > DOM that would be different.
> >
> > James
> >
> >
> > On 10/29/07, Tony Crockford <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > > On 29 Oct 2007, at 15:46, Simon Cockayne wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > I am sure I read that CSS's display: none has a detrimental on SEO.
> > > >
> > > > Is this true* or did I dream it?
> > > >
> > > > *To clarify...I am keen to know if it is true that there is a
> > > > detrimental impact...not whether it is true that I read it or not.
> > >
> > > Google specifically caution against hiding text with CSS:
> > >
> > >
> > http://www.google.com/support/webmasters/bin/answer.py?answer=66353
> > >
> > > is that what you meant?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > ***
> > > List Guidelines:
> > http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
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Re: [WSG] Re: worst site I've seen lately

[Rob Mason]

My eyes, my beautiful eyes...it burns.


-- 
Rob Mason
t/a Sponge Project
www.spongeproject.co.uk
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: [WSG] CSS display: none has SEO impact?

[Dave Woods]

It depends what you're using it for. If it's for black hat search
engine tactics which will contain keywords then yes it's bad as it can
get you completely banned from Google.

If it's for hiding an element of the page which you'll then be
displaying using either CSS or JavaScript then it's not neccesarily
bad for search engines but can be bad for accessibility as screen
readers will ignore it so you'd be better off using negative text
indent or negative absolute positioning.

It depends on what situation you're using it for but yes it can be bad
if used wrongly.

Thanks
Dave

- - - - - - - - - -
http://www.dave-woods.co.uk


On 29/10/2007, James Jeffery <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I highly doubt that presentational styles will effect SEO.
>
> When you use display:none you are not removing the
> content from the source, you are just hiding it from
> users viewing the web page.
>
> If you was to remove the element from the source using
> DOM that would be different.
>
> James
>
>
> On 10/29/07, Tony Crockford <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > On 29 Oct 2007, at 15:46, Simon Cockayne wrote:
> >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > I am sure I read that CSS's display: none has a detrimental on SEO.
> > >
> > > Is this true* or did I dream it?
> > >
> > > *To clarify...I am keen to know if it is true that there is a
> > > detrimental impact...not whether it is true that I read it or not.
> >
> > Google specifically caution against hiding text with CSS:
> >
> >
> http://www.google.com/support/webmasters/bin/answer.py?answer=66353
> >
> > is that what you meant?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> ***
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Re: [WSG] CSS display: none has SEO impact?

[Tony Crockford]

On 29 Oct 2007, at 17:43, James Jeffery wrote:


I highly doubt that presentational styles will effect SEO.

When you use display:none you are not removing the
content from the source, you are just hiding it from
users viewing the web page.

If you was to remove the element from the source using
DOM that would be different.



The whole point is that you leave it in the source for the web spiders  
to index and remove it from plain view for the visitor, so they don't  
see your multiple keyword spam


read the google guidelines linked to below.



Google specifically caution against hiding text with CSS:

http://www.google.com/support/webmasters/bin/answer.py?answer=66353

is that what you meant?




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Re: [WSG] CSS display: none has SEO impact?

[James Jeffery]

I highly doubt that presentational styles will effect SEO.

When you use display:none you are not removing the
content from the source, you are just hiding it from
users viewing the web page.

If you was to remove the element from the source using
DOM that would be different.

James

On 10/29/07, Tony Crockford <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> On 29 Oct 2007, at 15:46, Simon Cockayne wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > I am sure I read that CSS's display: none has a detrimental on SEO.
> >
> > Is this true* or did I dream it?
> >
> > *To clarify...I am keen to know if it is true that there is a
> > detrimental impact...not whether it is true that I read it or not.
>
> Google specifically caution against hiding text with CSS:
>
> http://www.google.com/support/webmasters/bin/answer.py?answer=66353
>
> is that what you meant?
>
>
>
> ***
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>


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Re: [WSG] How z-index works

[Mike at Green-Beast.com]

> BTW: congrats for your move with the Guild :)  [1]

Thank you.

Cheers.
Mike

[1] http://accessites.org/site/2007/10/accessites-and-gawds-cooperate/




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Re: [WSG] CSS display: none has SEO impact?

[Tony Crockford]

On 29 Oct 2007, at 15:46, Simon Cockayne wrote:


Hi,

I am sure I read that CSS's display: none has a detrimental on SEO.

Is this true* or did I dream it?

*To clarify...I am keen to know if it is true that there is a
detrimental impact...not whether it is true that I read it or not.


Google specifically caution against hiding text with CSS:

http://www.google.com/support/webmasters/bin/answer.py?answer=66353

is that what you meant?



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RE: [WSG] How z-index works

[Thierry Koblentz]

> On Behalf Of Mike at Green-Beast.com

>> I'd appreciate any comments that would help me improve
>> this "tool":
>> http://tjkdesign.com/articles/z-index/teach_yourself_how_elements_stack.asp

> That's really cool Thierry :-)

Thanks Mike 

BTW: congrats for your move with the Guild :)

-- 
Regards,
Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com






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[WSG] CSS display: none has SEO impact?

[Simon Cockayne]

Hi,

I am sure I read that CSS's display: none has a detrimental on SEO.

Is this true* or did I dream it?

*To clarify...I am keen to know if it is true that there is a
detrimental impact...not whether it is true that I read it or not.

Cheers,

Simon


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Re: [WSG] How z-index works

[Mike at Green-Beast.com]

> I'd appreciate any comments that would help me improve
> this "tool":
> http://tjkdesign.com/articles/z-index/teach_yourself_how_elements_stack.asp

That's really cool Thierry :-)

Mike



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[WSG] How z-index works

[Thierry Koblentz]

I'd appreciate any comments that would help me improve this "tool":
http://tjkdesign.com/articles/z-index/teach_yourself_how_elements_stack.asp

Thanks,
-- 
Regards,
Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com





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RE: [WSG] Re: WSG Digest

[Thierry Koblentz]

> B) Then I use external (unobtrusive) Javascript window.onload to
> remove (via DOM Scripting) all the L2 elements*...this works...but I
> do see an initial "flicker"..i.e you can discern the original page
> momentarily and then the L2 items being removed.

I'd not use the onload approach to hide the nodes, because then it's "too 
late". 
Instead, use JS to plug the styles that will hide these elements. 
See the first lines of this script:
http://tjkdesign.com/articles/TJK_SlideMenu/TJK_SlideMENU.js

-- 
Regards,
Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com






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RE: [WSG] Toggle L2 menu items (within WCAG)

[Thierry Koblentz]

> On Behalf Of Simon Cockayne
>
> I've started down the rod of using DOM scripting...to remove the L2 items
>  when the page loads and then toggle there addition/removal when a L1 item
> is clickedbut the JS is getting complicated...trying to support IE and
> Firefox. 

> Is there a CSS way that can:

> A) Show ALL items of CSS is no supported (for WCAG).
> B) NOT impact SEO.

These are two different approaches (both keyboard-friendly and "unobtrusive"):
JS:
http://tjkdesign.com/articles/TJK_SlideMenu/TJK_SlideMENU.asp 
CSS:
http://tjkdesign.com/articles/keyboard_friendly_dropdown_menu/EK.asp

HTH,
-- 
Regards,
Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com






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RE: [WSG] Re: WSG Digest

[Frank Palinkas]

Hi Simon,

You're most welcome!

With this method, turning off scripting in a browser/user agent lets the
nested lists degrade gracefully, and all are exposed. 

Something else you may find useful - besides the expand/collapse image placed
left of an expandable list item , I also place a link state symbol to the
right of the link text. The changing and persisting of the symbols is
controlled by the anchor link pseudo classes in an external stylesheet. This
is to aid hard-of-seeing, color blind and memory disabled users to know if a
link is unvisited, visited or being focused on/hovered over.

Yes, I've seen flickering occur (on refresh, for example) on pages that have
numerous images embedded in them with the  element, along with the
script we're talking about. Please see Chris Knowles message referring to
Dean Edwards solution to this. Thanks Chris.

I'll email you the package and please do what you like with it, maybe improve
it. I'm always willing to learn and progress.

Kind regards,

Frank

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Simon Cockayne
Sent: Monday, 29 October, 2007 13:24 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Re: WSG Digest

Hi Frank,

Thanks for feedback.

* What happens with CSS/Javascript disabled?

WCAG 1.0, rightly, wants graceful degradation of CSS/Javascript is
disabled...and so do I.

So...*without* using an alternate page...(e.g. a text only
ghetto...scary)...I'd like my (X)HTML-only page to give all the menu
options.

So...I tinkered with:

A) Showing *all* options in the (X)HTML content...so they *will*
appear expanded and therefore usable with just (X)HTML.

B) Then I use external (unobtrusive) Javascript window.onload to
remove (via DOM Scripting) all the L2 elements*...this works...but I
do see an initial "flicker"..i.e you can discern the original page
momentarily and then the L2 items being removed.

*Then I set up eventhandlers for the L1 items...so that L2 is added by
DOM scripting.


Have you come across this "flickering" problem...is there a better
way? Can I remove the DOM elements before they are displayed?


And...yes, please - I'd love to get the zip.

I will try to upload an example of my approach and send you the URL
one evening this week.

Cheers,

Simon
*
From: Frank Palinkas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 07:06:11 +0200
Subject: RE: [WSG] Toggle L2 menu items (within WCAG)

Hi Simon,



I’m working on a similar issue using unobtrusive DOM/JavaScript to produce
the expand/collapse effect of nested unordered list items in a navigation
tree structure. This method (related containers) allows activation by both
mouse and keyboard, and the expanded nested list items remain open until
collapsed by the user. All DOM/Javascript is external to the structure layer
of the web page, along with event handlers and presentation layer styles. Gez
Lemon, from The Paciello Group (hi Steve), was instrumental in helping me get
the DOM/JavaScript sorted out â€" he is absolutely brilliant. There is still
some work to do on it, but the initial behavior layer is working properly.
This is definitely not the only way to accomplish this, but I thought It may
add to the suggestions being made by other list members. I can email you a
small zipped sample project folder for your inspection and possible use, if
you feel this may help. Please let me know?



Kind regards,

Frank M. Palinkas
Microsoft M.V.P. - Windows Help

W3C HTML Working Group (H.T.M.L.W.G.) - Invited Expert

M.C.P., M.C.T., M.C.S.E., M.C.D.B.A., A+

Senior Technical Communicator

Web Standards & Accessibility Designer

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Re: [WSG] Re: WSG Digest

[Chris Knowles]

Chris Knowles wrote:
> you need this...
> http://dean.edwards.name/weblog/2006/06/again/
> 

in fact, I incorporated this into my own library - I found the order in
which the code tests the different browsers to matter - I think if I
remember rightly I had an issue with safari on windows if the safari
test came before the IE test. Anyway, this is my slightly changed
version ...

var onDomload = function()
{
/* for Internet Explorer */
/[EMAIL PROTECTED] @*/
/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (@_win32)
return function(func)
{
document.write("

Re: [WSG] Re: WSG Digest

[Chris Knowles]

Simon Cockayne wrote:

> Have you come across this "flickering" problem...is there a better
> way? Can I remove the DOM elements before they are displayed?
> 

Hi Simon

you need this...
http://dean.edwards.name/weblog/2006/06/again/

-- 
Chris Knowles


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[WSG] Re: WSG Digest

[Simon Cockayne]

Hi Frank,

Thanks for feedback.

* What happens with CSS/Javascript disabled?

WCAG 1.0, rightly, wants graceful degradation of CSS/Javascript is
disabled...and so do I.

So...*without* using an alternate page...(e.g. a text only
ghetto...scary)...I'd like my (X)HTML-only page to give all the menu
options.

So...I tinkered with:

A) Showing *all* options in the (X)HTML content...so they *will*
appear expanded and therefore usable with just (X)HTML.

B) Then I use external (unobtrusive) Javascript window.onload to
remove (via DOM Scripting) all the L2 elements*...this works...but I
do see an initial "flicker"..i.e you can discern the original page
momentarily and then the L2 items being removed.

*Then I set up eventhandlers for the L1 items...so that L2 is added by
DOM scripting.


Have you come across this "flickering" problem...is there a better
way? Can I remove the DOM elements before they are displayed?


And...yes, please - I'd love to get the zip.

I will try to upload an example of my approach and send you the URL
one evening this week.

Cheers,

Simon
*
From: Frank Palinkas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 07:06:11 +0200
Subject: RE: [WSG] Toggle L2 menu items (within WCAG)

Hi Simon,



I’m working on a similar issue using unobtrusive DOM/JavaScript to produce
the expand/collapse effect of nested unordered list items in a navigation
tree structure. This method (related containers) allows activation by both
mouse and keyboard, and the expanded nested list items remain open until
collapsed by the user. All DOM/Javascript is external to the structure layer
of the web page, along with event handlers and presentation layer styles. Gez
Lemon, from The Paciello Group (hi Steve), was instrumental in helping me get
the DOM/JavaScript sorted out â€" he is absolutely brilliant. There is still
some work to do on it, but the initial behavior layer is working properly.
This is definitely not the only way to accomplish this, but I thought It may
add to the suggestions being made by other list members. I can email you a
small zipped sample project folder for your inspection and possible use, if
you feel this may help. Please let me know?



Kind regards,

Frank M. Palinkas
Microsoft M.V.P. - Windows Help

W3C HTML Working Group (H.T.M.L.W.G.) - Invited Expert

M.C.P., M.C.T., M.C.S.E., M.C.D.B.A., A+

Senior Technical Communicator

Web Standards & Accessibility Designer

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