RE: ADMIN Re: [WSG] AOL mail problems? [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

[Chris Vickery]

Sorry Lea,
I get around 100 emails a day. Accessibility is in the scope of my work. AOL 
definitely isn't.
... and if everyone on this forum had just a little bit of chatter OT then it 
makes it hard to find the posts on topic.
c.


On 16/06/12 9:35 AM, Chris Pearce wrote:
> I'm sorry but how is this related to Web Standards?

Its not relevant to web standards, but when the list is quiet (as the 
word echoes around the room) its harmless to have a little technical 
off-topic chatter.
(but only a little)

Lea
-- 
Lea de Groot
Core Group Member



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RE: [WSG] flat form with check boxes [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

[Chris Vickery]

Thanks Darren,
In our case, it’s a requirement that we use HTML, not PDF or word. Graphical 
elements are an option and it’s how they’re done at the moment, but I would 
have thought a Jaws user would find that quite confusing. I would think a 
checkbox symbol would be better practice because there’s no confusion for any 
level of user if there’s some interaction required ☐ but I might be wrong 
(and you’ve got to check cross browser compatibility).

I like Joseph’s idea that you could fill out the checkboxes and print rather 
than submit. It’s a simple eloquent solution and I think a lot of users would 
get value from checking some boxes that they know they’re compliant with off 
the top of their head, then manually go through the rest with pen and paper 
later. I’m not sure if we’ll be allowed to do that though.

The point of the page is that it’s a checklist that people can run through to 
see how their business complies with a general set of rules. The page wasn’t 
really designed by a web person so it’s a bit unclear what the intention is, 
for people to read the form as general advice or actually check off each point. 
We don’t have the option of changing the text or going back for clarification.

The way it’s written means to me, it makes more sense as a check box list but 
not really as an  or  unfortunately.

There’s a couple of options that would probably pass the bar to varying 
degrees, but is what is the best practice?

Thanks everyone for the input so far.


From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On 
Behalf Of Darren Lovelock
Sent: Monday, 12 September 2011 3:58 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] flat form with check boxes [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

Hi Chris,

Why not make the printable form a word doc or pdf for them to download, rather 
than coding it into the page as a form or image?

That way you wont confuse the users and you have the option of still making the 
pdf form interactive.

If that's not possible then I would use an image for the check boxes with clear 
instructions that the page is there for printing.

Darren Lovelock
MunkyOnline.com<http://MunkyOnline.com>

On 12 Sep 2011, at 05:57, "Chris Vickery" 
mailto:chris.vick...@oaic.gov.au>> wrote:
Hi all,
We’ve got some flat forms on our site, ie. They are not interactive forms, and 
have no submit button. They are indicating that it’s a check list that can be 
ticked once the page is printed.

Someone suggested putting in regular check boxes and having no submit button, 
but wouldn’t that make it confusing from both and accessibility and usability 
point of view?
At the same time using a graphical or styled element with Alt tag seems messy 
and cringe worthy as a work around.

I’ve got my own ideas, but what does everyone think is best practice in this 
case?

Regards,
Chris

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[WSG] flat form with check boxes [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

[Chris Vickery]

Hi all,
We've got some flat forms on our site, ie. They are not interactive forms, and 
have no submit button. They are indicating that it's a check list that can be 
ticked once the page is printed.

Someone suggested putting in regular check boxes and having no submit button, 
but wouldn't that make it confusing from both and accessibility and usability 
point of view?
At the same time using a graphical or styled element with Alt tag seems messy 
and cringe worthy as a work around.

I've got my own ideas, but what does everyone think is best practice in this 
case?

Regards,
Chris


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RE: [WSG] my final site [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

[Chris Vickery]

Hi Marvin,
The date and time pop up in your menu bar when you click on copyright... 

It's not accessibility or standards related but your copyright message needs 
fixing.
It should at least read "No unauthorised reproduction of material is allowed by 
the copyright holder. Any unauthorized person reproducing this material without 
written consent could be prosecuted by the Australian Federal Police.

At the moment your text has a double negative so you're saying unauthorised 
reproduction is allowed and you're saying the material would be prosecuted, not 
the person reproducing it.

Wouldn't hurt if you put in a privacy policy too. 


-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On 
Behalf Of Krystian Szastok
Sent: Wednesday, 25 November 2009 9:54 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] my final site

I would put copyright and credits at the bottom, next to copyright in
the footer...

Looks a bit empty as well, I know we're not giving style advice here,
but still...

On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 9:36 AM, Stuart Foulstone
 wrote:
> Hi Marvin,
>
> The semantics of the headers on your recipe page are wrong.
>
> Headers show the structure of the underlying document with the numbering
> indicating the position of importance and order.
>
> Thus,
>
> recipe name
> Ingredients
> Directions
> Country
>
> would relate the country, , to the previous recipe's  and  and
> not to the next recipe as you intend.
>
>
>
> On Wed, November 25, 2009 3:35 am, Marvin Hunkin wrote:
>> hi.
>> well take a look at this site.
>> hopefully it is what everyone has been giving me advice.
>> so hopefully this is the final version.
>> http://www.raulferrer.com/joe/html/
>>
>> Marvin.
>>
>>
>>
>>
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-- 
Krystian Szastok
http://www.bozboz.co.uk - flash development, ecommerce, SEO
http://www.searchoptimist.co.uk - Digital Marketing Company in Brighton


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RE: [WSG] Is pressing Enter to submit (or not) on forms an accessability issue? [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

[Chris Vickery]

Thanks everyone for the feedback. Lots to work with there.

Good stuff.

-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On 
Behalf Of Oliver Boermans
Sent: Wednesday, 21 October 2009 8:58 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Is pressing Enter to submit (or not) on forms an 
accessability issue? [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

2009/10/21 Chris Vickery :
> In this case it's for an input field, not a textarea, and enter will still
> not submit (unless you tab out) so in this case makes it contrary to 'native
> browser behaviour'.

This would potentially create annoyance to users of Safari on an
iPhone or iPod Touch.
When you have a text input focused (in contrast to a textarea) Mobile
Safari displays a big blue [ Go ] button in the bottom right corner
which one would expect will submit the form (equivalent to hitting
Enter).
If Enter does not submit the form it will be necessary for Mobile
Safari users to leave the 'form mode' by clicking [Done] and then
manually tap the submit button. I would consider this unexpected
behaviour a usability issue at very least.

Cheers Ollie
--
@ollicle


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RE: [WSG] Is pressing Enter to submit (or not) on forms an accessability issue? [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

[Chris Vickery]

Thanks Jason,
In this case it's for an input field, not a textarea, and enter will still not 
submit (unless you tab out) so in this case makes it contrary to 'native 
browser behaviour'.
Essentially our input fields would, (although they identify themselves as input 
fields) would behave like textareas, without line breaks.

I'm not really familiar with using a text to speech reader, but that sounds 
messy to me. Interestingly the source itself looks pretty straight forward:







There must be something buried in the styling causing this behaviour.
Chris

From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On 
Behalf Of ja...@flexewebs.com
Sent: Wednesday, 21 October 2009 11:03 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Is pressing Enter to submit (or not) on forms an 
accessability issue? [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

Hi Chris,

The submission by pressing enter is a native browser behaviour, hence is not an 
accessibility issue.

You will only be able to submit via enter from an input field and not from a 
textarea, which you have to tab out of and then hit enter.

So I doubt you will find any references to back-up your claim. If you do, send 
it through so we can debunk it. :-D

Best,

Jason

Sent from my BlackBerry(r) wireless device

____
From: "Chris Vickery" 
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 10:20:51 +1100
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Is pressing Enter to submit (or not) on forms an accessability 
issue? [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

We're accessibility testing at the moment. We've got some email forms (ie. Put 
in your email address to subscribe -> submit) that do not currently submit if 
you press enter.
Personally I feel this should be an accessibility issue, but I am finding it 
difficult to locate any solid documentation to back up my claim. I've had the 
argument put to me that a keyboard only user could still tab to the submit 
button, then press enter, but this seems very unintuitive to me to force users 
to do this.

I've also had put to me that some users get confused if they want to put line 
breaks in a field and submit by accident... and so to be consistent pressing 
enter should never submit a form. (data entry people would love that one :P)

Is submitting by pressing enter from a form best practice, or just common 
practice? Is it an accessibility problem? ... and to what degree?

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[WSG] Is pressing Enter to submit (or not) on forms an accessability issue? [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

[Chris Vickery]

We're accessibility testing at the moment. We've got some email forms (ie. Put 
in your email address to subscribe -> submit) that do not currently submit if 
you press enter.
Personally I feel this should be an accessibility issue, but I am finding it 
difficult to locate any solid documentation to back up my claim. I've had the 
argument put to me that a keyboard only user could still tab to the submit 
button, then press enter, but this seems very unintuitive to me to force users 
to do this.

I've also had put to me that some users get confused if they want to put line 
breaks in a field and submit by accident... and so to be consistent pressing 
enter should never submit a form. (data entry people would love that one :P)

Is submitting by pressing enter from a form best practice, or just common 
practice? Is it an accessibility problem? ... and to what degree?


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RE: [WSG] accessibility: government [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

[Chris Vickery]

There's also a guide for Australian Government agencies here:
http://webpublishing.agimo.gov.au/

As a couple of people have said... at the end of the day it's just different 
flavours of W3C

-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On 
Behalf Of Sue Choong
Sent: Thursday, 27 August 2009 9:29 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] accessibility: government

Very useful links thanks Andrew



On 27/08/2009, at 7:27 AM, Andrew Boyd  wrote:

> On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 4:40 AM, Luc wrote:
>> Good afternoon list,
>>
>> Does anybody know if their exists a list of what is required in  
>> terms of accessibility
>> features for each country (governments)?
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Regards,
>>  Luc
>
> Hi Luc,
>
> here in Australia we have a couple of pieces of legislation, the main
> one being the Disability Discrimination Act - there is a guide to it
> at http://hreoc.gov.au/disability_rights/dda_guide/dda_guide.htm
> There are some Better Practice Guidelines that touch on a lot of
> accessibility issues (amongst others) at
> http://www.finance.gov.au/e-government/better-practice-and-collaboration/better-practice-checklists/index.html
>
> Others may wish to add to the list above.
>
> Best regards, Andrew
>
> -- 
> ---
> Andrew Boyd
> http://uxaustralia.com.au -- UX Australia Conference Canberra 2009
> http://uxbookclub.org -- connect, read, discuss
> http://resilientnationaustralia.org Resilient Nation Australia
>
>
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RE: [WSG] Was given a shocker this week ... [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

[Chris Vickery]

You used to be able to slice an image up in Photoshop and export it as HTML. 
I’m not even sure if you can still do that. It used to make THE ugliest code, 
maybe that’s how they did it, wouldn’t be the first time.

Regarding copyright... if you’re in Australia there’s a book put out by 
www.copyright.org.au that looks like it’s exactly 
what you need. I’m pretty keen to get a copy for our office.
http://www.copyright.org.au/publications/books/b131.htm


“The guide includes references to real-life cases and answers many common

questions such as:



­ can clients use designs they haven¹t paid for?

­ are clients entitled to original artwork and files?
­ what if someone says I¹ve copied their design?...”


From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On 
Behalf Of Joseph Taylor
Sent: Tuesday, 7 April 2009 5:30 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Was given a shocker this week ...

Sadly, many sites get built this way.

Sent from the iphone of:

Joseph R. B. Taylor
Designer/Developer
---
Sites by Joe, LLC
"Clean, Simple & Elegant Web Design"
Phone: (609) 335-3076


On Apr 6, 2009, at 1:21 PM, "Rick Faircloth" 
mailto:r...@whitestonemedia.com>> wrote:
Sounds like a nightmare, Mike.

I wonder if the former web designer has any real claim
to copyright on the site’s original graphics, or did the client
pay to be owner of the site’s graphics in their original agreement?

Rick

From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org 
[mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Mike Kear
Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 12:42 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Was given a shocker this week ...

You might be amused to learn about the site I was given to rebuild this week.   
 It was built by a photographer who had a mac and some free software, and the 
client said the problem was she had to get someone to update it for her every 
time she changed anything in her business.  She wanted a content management 
system.

That’s no problem for me – that’s mostly what I do .   But I was appalled when 
I saw the site she was asking me to rebuild .. .  here’s what I found – the 
work of a woman who was claiming to be a professional web designer:

[A]  the site consisted of 8 html pages
[B]  each page consisted of some invalid html code produced by a WYSIWYG app, 
presumably used incorrectly since most WYSIWYG apps are CAPABLE of  producing 
valid code.
[C] the content on each page consisted of a single image for the header 1169px 
x 168px  and another jpg image with all the text, photos etc  702px x 961px
[D]  because of the sizes of the header image and the body image,   none of the 
pages could ever possibly line up across the page without a lot of tinkering 
about.
[E]  the html contained no content whatever, except the name of the designer
[F]  all links inside the pages were using image maps – something I haven’t 
used for about  ten years.  I don’t think I’d even remember how to do that now 
if I had to.
[G]  the layout problems caused by the different widths of the header and the 
image in the body were corrected by nesting tables with lots of cells and a 
transparent spacer gif to stretch the cells out.   I didn’t bother working out 
why there were so many of these spacer tables,  I knew at a glance I wasn’t 
going to be needing anything in this code!
[H] because my client has had such trouble getting her site updated on a timely 
basis,  she has taken the site away and is hosting it with me,  which has 
sparked off a war between my client and her former web designer,   complaining 
that I have taken her site by using a web archive, in violation of her rights 
to copyright.  (As a first step, I used a browser to copy the files from her 
existing site, so I could see what’s in there,  just in case the former 
designer decided to take it off line.Which she did.   So it was a good 
precaution.   Then while my client and I are discussing her new site,  I put 
the existing one up in her new hosting space with me just so the site stays 
alive while we work out what to do.You can almost hear the former web 
designer frothing at the mouth as she rants and raves on the phone DEMANDING 
that I pull everything down off the web within ONE HOUR – OR ELSE!!)

It’s like a cat fight.I’m expecting to see them both pulling each others 
hair, biting, and rolling in the mud any time soon.

Anyway, I’d done quite a few sites now that I’ve enhanced by making them 
standards compliant, but I think this is the most extreme case I’ve seen – well 
since I tried Frontpage v2.0 all those years ago.

Maybe I can write it up as a case study later when the new site is up.  If the 
client agrees.



Cheers
Mike Kear
Windsor, NSW, Australia
0422 985 585
Adobe Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer
AFP Webworks Pty Ltd
http://afpwebworks.com
Full Scale ColdFusion hosting from A$15/

RE: [WSG] URL naming best practice guide? [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

[Chris Vickery]

That's an awesome help. Thanks everyone!

http://googlewebmastercentral.blogspot.com/2008/11/googles-seo-starter-guide.html
http://www.useit.com/alertbox/990321.html
http://www.w3.org/Provider/Style/URI



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RE: [WSG] URL naming best practice guide? [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

[Chris Vickery]

Thanks. Not really what I'm looking for. I know the principals myself... I'm 
looking for a site, a guide... something more substantive or with some 
authority. If it's in relatively plain English, even better.

It's for my manager.


-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On 
Behalf Of Chris F.A. Johnson
Sent: Friday, 20 February 2009 1:29 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] URL naming best practice guide? [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

On Fri, 20 Feb 2009, Chris Vickery wrote:

> Does anyone know where I could find a best practice guide to naming URLs?
>
> We're trying to keep our URLs descriptive like...
> 
>
> but not like this...
> 
> I need it to pass on to a manager.

Use POSIX portable file names. That is, filenames that contain only
letters, numbers, hyphens, periods and underscores and which do not
begin with a hyphen.

-- 
Chris F.A. Johnson, webmaster <http://woodbine-gerrard.com>
= Do not reply to the From: address; use Reply-To: 
Author:
Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress)


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[WSG] URL naming best practice guide? [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

[Chris Vickery]

Does anyone know where I could find a best practice guide to naming URLs?

We're trying to keep our URLs descriptive like... 


...but not like this... 


I need it to pass on to a manager.


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RE: RE: [WSG] Accessibility testing [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

[Chris Vickery]

That is a very cool tool. Nice job.

-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On 
Behalf Of Jon Gunderson
Sent: Tuesday, 17 February 2009 4:25 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Accessibility testing

You can try the Illinois Functional Web Accessibility Evaluator
service.  It is a free service, no cost to create an account.

http://faetest.dres.uiuc.edu

This is the Candidate release 1, that hopefully be our production
version available later this week.

Please let me know what you think of it.

Jon


On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 11:59 PM, Henrik Madsen
 wrote:
>
> Hi all,
> I'm wrapping up a Government agency website.
> They have reams of design and usability standards. Some pretty pointless;
> others very valid - but no problem.
> Re. accessibility, they use ACTF aDesigner.
> http://www.eclipse.org/actf/downloads/tools/aDesigner/index.php
> And "our scores against WCAG v1.0 Level A" could apparently be improved.
> They have provided scores for star rating, compliance, navigability and
> listenability.
> Now, here's the thing. This software is only for PC. I'm Mac. Not very
> accessible eh? :)
> What similar software / online systems do people use and get reliable
> results (if reliable results are indeed attainable)?
> TIA.
> Henrik
>
>
> Henrik Madsen
> Generator
> hen...@igenerator.com.au
> www.igenerator.com.au
>
> ***
> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
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RE: RE: [WSG] Accessibility testing [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

[Chris Vickery]

That is a very cool tool. Nice job.

-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On 
Behalf Of Jon Gunderson
Sent: Tuesday, 17 February 2009 4:25 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Accessibility testing

You can try the Illinois Functional Web Accessibility Evaluator
service.  It is a free service, no cost to create an account.

http://faetest.dres.uiuc.edu

This is the Candidate release 1, that hopefully be our production
version available later this week.

Please let me know what you think of it.

Jon


On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 11:59 PM, Henrik Madsen
 wrote:
>
> Hi all,
> I'm wrapping up a Government agency website.
> They have reams of design and usability standards. Some pretty pointless;
> others very valid - but no problem.
> Re. accessibility, they use ACTF aDesigner.
> http://www.eclipse.org/actf/downloads/tools/aDesigner/index.php
> And "our scores against WCAG v1.0 Level A" could apparently be improved.
> They have provided scores for star rating, compliance, navigability and
> listenability.
> Now, here's the thing. This software is only for PC. I'm Mac. Not very
> accessible eh? :)
> What similar software / online systems do people use and get reliable
> results (if reliable results are indeed attainable)?
> TIA.
> Henrik
>
>
> Henrik Madsen
> Generator
> hen...@igenerator.com.au
> www.igenerator.com.au
>
> ***
> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
> Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
> ***


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RE: RE: [WSG] Accessibility testing [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

[Chris Vickery]

That is a very cool tool. Nice job.

-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On 
Behalf Of Jon Gunderson
Sent: Tuesday, 17 February 2009 4:25 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Accessibility testing

You can try the Illinois Functional Web Accessibility Evaluator
service.  It is a free service, no cost to create an account.

http://faetest.dres.uiuc.edu

This is the Candidate release 1, that hopefully be our production
version available later this week.

Please let me know what you think of it.

Jon


On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 11:59 PM, Henrik Madsen
 wrote:
>
> Hi all,
> I'm wrapping up a Government agency website.
> They have reams of design and usability standards. Some pretty pointless;
> others very valid - but no problem.
> Re. accessibility, they use ACTF aDesigner.
> http://www.eclipse.org/actf/downloads/tools/aDesigner/index.php
> And "our scores against WCAG v1.0 Level A" could apparently be improved.
> They have provided scores for star rating, compliance, navigability and
> listenability.
> Now, here's the thing. This software is only for PC. I'm Mac. Not very
> accessible eh? :)
> What similar software / online systems do people use and get reliable
> results (if reliable results are indeed attainable)?
> TIA.
> Henrik
>
>
> Henrik Madsen
> Generator
> hen...@igenerator.com.au
> www.igenerator.com.au
>
> ***
> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
> Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
> ***


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RE: RE: [WSG] Accessibility testing [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

[Chris Vickery]

That is a very cool tool. Nice job.

-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On 
Behalf Of Jon Gunderson
Sent: Tuesday, 17 February 2009 4:25 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Accessibility testing

You can try the Illinois Functional Web Accessibility Evaluator
service.  It is a free service, no cost to create an account.

http://faetest.dres.uiuc.edu

This is the Candidate release 1, that hopefully be our production
version available later this week.

Please let me know what you think of it.

Jon


On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 11:59 PM, Henrik Madsen
 wrote:
>
> Hi all,
> I'm wrapping up a Government agency website.
> They have reams of design and usability standards. Some pretty pointless;
> others very valid - but no problem.
> Re. accessibility, they use ACTF aDesigner.
> http://www.eclipse.org/actf/downloads/tools/aDesigner/index.php
> And "our scores against WCAG v1.0 Level A" could apparently be improved.
> They have provided scores for star rating, compliance, navigability and
> listenability.
> Now, here's the thing. This software is only for PC. I'm Mac. Not very
> accessible eh? :)
> What similar software / online systems do people use and get reliable
> results (if reliable results are indeed attainable)?
> TIA.
> Henrik
>
>
> Henrik Madsen
> Generator
> hen...@igenerator.com.au
> www.igenerator.com.au
>
> ***
> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
> Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
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RE: RE: [WSG] Accessibility testing [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

[Chris Vickery]

That is a very cool tool. Nice job.

-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On 
Behalf Of Jon Gunderson
Sent: Tuesday, 17 February 2009 4:25 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Accessibility testing

You can try the Illinois Functional Web Accessibility Evaluator
service.  It is a free service, no cost to create an account.

http://faetest.dres.uiuc.edu

This is the Candidate release 1, that hopefully be our production
version available later this week.

Please let me know what you think of it.

Jon


On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 11:59 PM, Henrik Madsen
 wrote:
>
> Hi all,
> I'm wrapping up a Government agency website.
> They have reams of design and usability standards. Some pretty pointless;
> others very valid - but no problem.
> Re. accessibility, they use ACTF aDesigner.
> http://www.eclipse.org/actf/downloads/tools/aDesigner/index.php
> And "our scores against WCAG v1.0 Level A" could apparently be improved.
> They have provided scores for star rating, compliance, navigability and
> listenability.
> Now, here's the thing. This software is only for PC. I'm Mac. Not very
> accessible eh? :)
> What similar software / online systems do people use and get reliable
> results (if reliable results are indeed attainable)?
> TIA.
> Henrik
>
>
> Henrik Madsen
> Generator
> hen...@igenerator.com.au
> www.igenerator.com.au
>
> ***
> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
> Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
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[WSG] What's the best way to place a link in a document? [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

[Chris Vickery]

What's the best way to place a link in a document? 
Is it more accessible to have your link in a sentence, as the URL, or as the 
word 'link'?

ExampleA makes the information more readable but the link less visible
ExampleB the link is visible and page a bit neater but target URL hidden
ExampleC is great if you want to print

ExampleA ... as referred to in the http://www.whatever.gov.au/constitution";>Australian Constitution.

ExampleB ... as referred to in the Australian Constitution http://www.whatever.gov.au/constitution";>(link) .

ExampleC... as referred to in the Australian Constitution http://www.whatever.gov.au/constitution";>( 
www.whatever.gov.au/constitution).

ExampleC is the most thorough but makes it very difficult to read. Interested 
in people's opinions.

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RE: [WSG] Who are the "Away on leave" Notices from? [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

[Chris Vickery]

If you're using outlook just set up a rule. Something like...

Where the subject line contains "out of the office" or "autoreply" then move it 
to (trash or junk mail or a subfolder)

Works most of the time.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Bennett
Sent: Thursday, 6 November 2008 8:32 AM
To: 'wsg@webstandardsgroup.org'
Subject: RE: [WSG] Who are the "Away on leave" Notices from?

Just auto replies from list members away on leave (who have set their 'out of 
office' setting to 'on')

It is annoying, but in saying that I'm probably guilty of it at times ;)


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RE: [WSG] URL length best practices [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

[Chris Vickery]

Yes o.O
...aren't we saying the same thing? Keep the url short and to the point.

Sorry... I exaggerated the example URL to illustrate the point.

Ashley try the unsubscribe if you don't want to get emails... 
http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Joe Ortenzi
Sent: Wednesday, 5 November 2008 3:30 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] URL length best practices [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

Sorry for being a bit off topic but.

I think you missed a point about friendly URLs
For each of these examples you state, you really don't want to burden  
your marketing team with urls like your example:
www.chrisandhispetstore.com/what_i_keep_in_stock/supplies_for_birds/cages_and_ornaments/full_product_list.htm

when any sensible marketer will tell you:
www.chrisandhispetstore.com/products

is where you should point them, and then let them find "cages" in one  
click on that page., maybe even at
www.chrisandhispetstore.com/products/cages

the long and friendly URL is really for the final page, which should  
not bury a full product list so deeply and should be titled / 
product_list.html anyway.

BAD IA IMHO

Joe


OK, in marketing terms you can easily create your own TinyURL by  
redirecting vimportant traffic through a rewrite.


On 05/11/2008, at 12:40 PM, Chris Vickery wrote:

> More reasons to keep 'em short:
> 1. Makes it easy to quote URL (maybe over the phone)
> 2. I've seen a few email or publication programs break URLs where  
> there's a line return, so breaks the hyperlink
> 3. Makes layout difficult for desktop publishers and marketing ie. 
> www.chrisandhispetstore.com/what_i_keep_in_stock/supplies_for_birds/cages_and_ornaments/full_product_list.htm
> 4. If it's longer than the width of the address bar then the whole  
> URL is not visible.
>
> Accessibility isn't just about clean code and text to speech  
> readers. It's about good IA and making everything generally better  
> to get at.
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]  
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of silky
> Sent: Wednesday, 5 November 2008 11:28 AM
> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> Subject: Re: [WSG] URL length best practices
>
> On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 11:21 AM, Joe Ortenzi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> other than making sense and having a strong  connection with the  
>> page the
>> content is on, there is no direct reason, other than being a bit  
>> sensible
>> about it, I wouldn't advise testing out the 2048 characters.
>
> of course there is a good reason: so it's typable. not every url
> should required to be clicked to be gotten to.
>
> -- 
> noon silky
> http://skillsforvilla.tumblr.com/
> http://www.themonkeynet.com/armada/
>
>
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>
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> of this information is unauthorised. If you have received this email  
> in
> error, we apologise for any inconvenience and request that you notify
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Joseph Ortenzi
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
+61 (0)434 047 804
http://www.typingthevoid.com
http://twitter.com/wheelyweb
http://www.linkedin.com/in/jortenzi
Skype:wheelyweb

http://au.movember.com/mospace/1714401



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RE: [WSG] URL length best practices [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

[Chris Vickery]

More reasons to keep 'em short:
1. Makes it easy to quote URL (maybe over the phone)
2. I've seen a few email or publication programs break URLs where there's a 
line return, so breaks the hyperlink
3. Makes layout difficult for desktop publishers and marketing ie. 
www.chrisandhispetstore.com/what_i_keep_in_stock/supplies_for_birds/cages_and_ornaments/full_product_list.htm
4. If it's longer than the width of the address bar then the whole URL is not 
visible.

Accessibility isn't just about clean code and text to speech readers. It's 
about good IA and making everything generally better to get at.


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of silky
Sent: Wednesday, 5 November 2008 11:28 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] URL length best practices

On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 11:21 AM, Joe Ortenzi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> other than making sense and having a strong  connection with the page the
> content is on, there is no direct reason, other than being a bit sensible
> about it, I wouldn't advise testing out the 2048 characters.

of course there is a good reason: so it's typable. not every url
should required to be clicked to be gotten to.

-- 
noon silky
http://skillsforvilla.tumblr.com/
http://www.themonkeynet.com/armada/


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RE: [WSG] Standards and Adobe Contribute [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

[Chris Vickery]

Reiterating what Gerard said yesterday, my experience has also been that the 
code is as compliant as the template you designed for the page.

I've implemented many contribute systems for clients and without exception 
they've found it easy to use and does everything that they want. Some of these 
clients have previously had more custom CMSs that have eventually fallen over, 
mainly because the group that set up the system either folded or didn't care to 
provide ongoing support (if I had a dollar for every time a client said their 
web designer just wasn't answering their calls and emails...)

I think it's great for smaller clients because it's easy to use, very 
affordable to implement and if you make your templates right, makes pages in 
compliant code. If something goes wrong, because it's a mainstream product, 
there's plenty of developers who can modify the system.

Having said that I'm currently working with an open source solution for a 
larger web site. We decided that a Dreamweaver & Contribute combination 
probably wasn't robust enough for what we need and with a reasonable budget we 
could get much more from a customised open source solution.


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dave Lane
Sent: Sunday, 2 November 2008 7:06 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Standards and Adobe Contribute

I'm sorry, Mark, but that is not a winning strategy in business.

As a web developer, you *must* design for maintainability.  Anything
else is a disservice to both your business and your customer.  The
customer is not always right.  The customer hires you because they
perceive you to have expertise they don't, and they trust your skill and
judgement on their behalf.  If they don't have that respect for your
ability, they're not the right customer for you.  I'm not saying that
you should tell them their wrong, but you should explain the
shortcomings of the methods they request and explain the advantages of
the tools you've chosen...  if you can't do that then you probably
haven't thought very carefully about choosing tools.

Ultimately, a business must select its technologies (the smallest set
possible to do the job well), become expert in them, and then maintain
those skills for the length of their relationship with their customers.

I completely agree with Joe's statement - using an app like Contribute
is a step backwards in most cases, both for the customer and for the
web.  CMSs, if chosen wisely (and the open source ones are better than
anything proprietary, so it'd be foolish not to go down the open source
path), implemented by *knowledgeable* developers with an appreciation
for web and software best practice (e.g. standards compliance, source
code control, change control procedures, etc.) and the will to adhere to
it, with ongoing maintenance in mind.

Those who don't feel responsible for learning about and adhering to best
practice should look for another line of work.

The road is littered with the remains of web development companies who
tried to support whatever solution de jeur their customer specified.  If
you customer requires you to use their choice of technologies rather
than yours, my advice is to get a new customer.  That sort of customer
will make your life miserable and cost you money in the long run.

Cheers,

Dave

Mark Harris wrote:
> Joe Ortenzi wrote:
>> Contribute is not about content management as much as it is about
>> allowing an in-house web team to share tasks without a "proper" CMS
>> deployed. Thus your coder can code and the content writer can write
>> but it can be all wrapped within a team. This is, frankly, Web 1.0,
>> and your time and their money is better served by getting a simple CMS
>> deployed that meets with their scope and strategy and will be easier
>> to manage for everyone, client included.
>>
> 
> With respect, this is so much bollocks.
> 
> The manner of deployment is always the client's choice. If you can offer
> her something better, by all means offer, but it's arrogant to tell the
> client "you have to do it this way".
> 
> Many clients won't have an "in-house" web team - they'll have one person
> to whom "maintaining the website" is only 1/4 of their job. Some outfits
> are still coming to grips with how they should be using the web and need
> baby steps.
> 
> While it's a designer's job to help educate them, you can't drag them
> kicking and screaming into something they're not ready for.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Mark Harris
> 
> 
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-- 
Dave Lane = Egressive Ltd = [EMAIL PROTECTED] = m: +64 21 229 8147
p: +64 3 9633733 = Linux: it just tastes better = nosoftwarepatents
http://egressive.com  w

[WSG] RE: Accessibility - Scanning PDFs [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

[Chris Vickery]

I've been looking into this recently too.
I found a lot of info from Adobe of how accessible Acrobat can be made, but my 
experience was that it takes a long time to set them up properly.

The success (or not) comes from how cleanly the pages were set up in the first 
place, with proper heading hierarchies and styling etc... and relying on them 
being made with the correct settings.

There's an accessibility checker and make accessible plugin with acrobat, but I 
found them quite erratic and time consuming. If you already have 20 000 docs 
that's a huge task to go back through them.

I know adding bookmarks helps with the general accessibility of content a lot, 
but even that is quite labour intensive.

Here's the Adobe Acrobat Accessibility guide: 
http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/pdfs/accessbooklet.pdf


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Thiru Yoganathan
Sent: Wednesday, 29 October 2008 3:40 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Accessibility - Scanning PDFs

Hi Guys,

I am dealing with a very large website, with around 20 000 PDF files.

I want to test if these PDFs are Compliant with W3C standards. I know that some 
of these files will be I just want to find the ones which aren't.

Does anyone know of a good tool to use to test PDF files. I currently use Bobby 
for my website testing. I am looking to purchase AccVerify from Hisoftware 
however I don't know if it is a good tool to test PDFs.

Thanks

Thiru Yoganathan | Customer Experience Analyst

Access Testing

The Experts in Testing

112 Alexander St, Crows Nest NSW 2065

P: 02 9467 5074 | F: 02 9467 5020

E: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Sydney | Melbourne | Brisbane | Canberra

www.accesstesting.com





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OT: RE: [WSG] Uppercase Tag Names [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

[Chris Vickery]

Sorry. Slightly OT:

Just a suggestion... there's every chance lecturer is just looking for a way to 
assess that you've got demonstrated knowledge of when upper and lower case is 
appropriate in HTML.

If you discuss it with him he'll probably think it's great you're interested. 
If you approach it as "I'm right and you're wrong... WSG said so!", the best 
you'll get is a clip over the ears for being a smartarse. :P

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Design
Sent: Monday, 29 September 2008 12:18 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] Uppercase Tag Names

As a fellow Uni student, I would do it in lower case with plenty of
references to back my decision up. As long as you have references, you
shouldn't lose marks. Check it out with your lecturer if in doubt though.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Luke Hoggett
Sent: Friday, 26 September 2008 10:14 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Uppercase Tag Names

Write you markup in lowercase then parse it with a regex into
uppercase before you hand it in.

Really the uppercase is fine just bad style especially if you're
moving on to XHTML.



On 26/09/2008, at 21:38, "James Jeffery" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 > wrote:

> I am at university at the moment, and they said to use uppercase
> text for tag names and lowercase for attributes. I have to do it
> because otherwise I will lose a mark.
>
> I disagreed (because it makes the source hard to read) but he said
> you need to so that you can conform to HTML 4.01.
>
> I think this a case of someone reading far to deep into the specs. I
> didn't really want to argue with him because he assumes I know
> nothing. I do know that the source code has become difficult to read
> using that method.
>
>
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RE: [WSG] Skype changing format of my pages [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

[Chris Vickery]

Hey Bob,
I totally agree with Ted and designer, and people who have the phone number 
auto Skype 'thing' turned on will actually be expecting that highlighting on 
any phone numbers. You should make it clear that you're really reducing the 
accessibility of the page by disabling the feature, as well as unnecessarily 
complicating the code.

It's always a pain explaining the technology to 'insistent' clients. I find it 
helps if you send them a link to a forum or blog that says the same thing. It 
shows that it really is about the technology, not just an excuse.

It always seems to be those that know the least complain the loudest. :P


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of designer
Sent: Wednesday, 27 August 2008 4:24 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Skype changing format of my pages

Hi Ted,

- Original Message -
From: "Ted Drake" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 5:14 PM
Subject: RE: [WSG] Skype changing format of my pages


So, to summarize.

The web developer creates a nice looking page with content (phone numbers).
A user adds software that takes that content and makes it more useful (click
to call).
The developer and client doesn't like the way that new functionality looks.
The developer and client want to disable the functionality that many users
may actually use.

Doesn't this sound like a mistake? If a user installs software to make
better use of your site, you should allow this. If the client doesn't like
the way it looks, have them uninstall the software. I don't think you should
hurt the user's functionality. If nothing else, it is helping the client by
making it easier for the user to contact them. This is why Ebay bought skype
years ago. They wanted to make it easier for bidders to contact sellers.

For what its worth, I have the skype plugin but have never used the click to
call functionality. It's annoying sometimes, but easy to ignore.

Ted Drake
http://last-child.com


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of designer
Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 8:29 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Skype changing format of my pages


Does anyone know a way to prevent Skype changing telephone numbers into
skype buttons on pages I have carefully designed/coded. It bothers others
too :

http://forum.skype.com/index.php?showtopic=113096

I do not use Skype, but one of my clients does, and my page design (for her
site) appears to her with the button instead of the text. (In IE). (She
blamed me, at first!) I know she can turn it off by disabling the Skype add
on in IE, but what about all the other folk around the world . . .

As this is to do with the web designer's work being tampered with, I feel
sure it will come under the heading of standards and accessibility. Sadly, I
cannot validate it for myself, but I expect it will be deadly.

Anyone got any clues?

Bob
www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk

Absolutely Ted, except that this client (as suspected by Christian) didn't
have a clue where this feature had come from , and certainly didn't know
that it could be turned off. (That's why she blamed me! :-). I strongly
suspect that this is the norm, and I would have thought that at least it
should be made clearer to the Skype user.

Bob






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RE: [WSG] Issues making compliant code using Joomla! [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

[Chris Vickery]

Thanks James. What sort of security flaws did you find? I have been told to 
make sure the system is up to date, but not much info on what to look out for.

I know recently there was a big breach where a Viagra company worked out how to 
get a bot to insert their branding into page metadata.

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of James Jeffery
Sent: Wednesday, 20 August 2008 5:28 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Issues making compliant code using Joomla! [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

I stopped using Joomla! because of security flaws and the whole system is code 
bloated and difficult to understand. The documentation is also weak.

I started getting to grips with Symfony, although strictly not a CMS, it offers 
alot more power and flexability.

James

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RE: [WSG] Lawsuits for inaccessible websites [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

[Chris Vickery]

The AGIMO guidelines specify minimum A, preferably AA.
http://webpublishing.agimo.gov.au/Accessibility


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Andrew Boyd
Sent: Monday, 18 August 2008 8:58 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Lawsuits for inaccessible websites


On Mon, Aug 18, 2008 at 12:18 AM, tee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Thanks for the info, Elizabeth.

Aussie members in this list  must be very proud of this law :-) Let's just hope 
no gold-digger lawyer sees an opportunity there!

Is the requirement for this law higher per WCAG guidelines (A, AA, or AAA)? For 
example, Section 508 is really low standard in my opinion.

tee

Tee,

the Disability Discrimination Act (here in Oz) does not actually specify the 
level of compliance according to WCAG. HREOC and AGIMO (google these) make some 
interpretations of the Act that are again interpreted by individual government 
bodies - I think it is fair to say that accessibility standards in Australia 
aren't (standard).

Cheers, Andrew

--
---
Andrew Boyd
http://onblogging.com.au

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[WSG] Issues making compliant code using Joomla! [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

[Chris Vickery]

Hi,
For anyone with experience in making a Joomla! site generate compliant code, 
are there any tips, tricks, pitfalls or advice that you could impart?

We've got a company setting a site up for us in Joomla. Their other sites 
seemed to validate quite well, but it would be great to get suggestions.

Cheers,
Chris


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