Re: [WSG] how to force a cache bypass?

[David Hucklesby]

(See below)

On 8/2/12 9:50 PM, James Ducker wrote:

Second that. If you can version the filenames that's definitely the
most sure-fire way to make sure users don't cache old copies.

James


On 3 August 2012 14:39, Emmanuel Negri mailto:nna...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Sometimes a random query string does not work.

Changing the filename itself works 100% of the time.

Eg. style-.css

Manu

On 03/08/2012, at 1:25 PM, James Ducker mailto:james.duc...@gmail.com>> wrote:


Append some junk querystring to the end of the URL, like
example.com/index.html?20120803132400
<http://example.com/index.html?20120803132400>. Every time it changes,
stuff will be refreshed. Wouldn't really recommend doing it for
regular pages because it makes the URLs look messy, but if you're
trying to refresh scripts or images, go nuts.

James


On 21 July 2012 03:22, Rob Crowther mailto:robe...@boogdesign.com>> wrote:

On 20/07/2012 17:47, coder wrote:

How can I make a web page appear as the latest version in all
browsers,
i.e., perform a cache bypass?  And I don't mean for me - I
mean for all
visitors to the page?  Is it possible?
??

Once it's cached in the browser there's not much you can do about
it, the browser will store the cache settings at the time when it
cached the page and if those settings say "don't check again for a
month" then, generally, it won't.

If you want the page to never be cached then you need to set the
expiry header.  With Apache servers this is quite straightforward
and can usually be done in the directory's .htaccess file:

ExpiresByType text/html "access plus 0 seconds"

This is example was take from HTML5 BoilerPlate:


https://github.com/h5bp/html5-__boilerplate/blob/__83f4f281866be1cf7f391738c53c44__8a5ac658e9/.htaccess#L233

<https://github.com/h5bp/html5-boilerplate/blob/83f4f281866be1cf7f391738c53c448a5ac658e9/.htaccess#L233>


Rob



You may be interested in this automated way of doing it:

 <http://derek.io/blog/2009/auto-versioning-javascript-and-css-files/>

--
Cordially,
David



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Re: [WSG] which tag to use for link to reference?

[David Dorward]

 
On 30 Jun 2012, at 11:04, tee wrote:
> I thought maybe I can use hyperlink for "monolithic" instead of adding 3 
> (which will be directed to Appendix), but this often is not desirable because 
> in other sections of paragraphs where citations are used, there aren't alway 
> clear sentences to hyperlink.

A hyperlink (to an ) is the closest thing HTML has AFAIK.

> This is for an ebook project, it's different from the webpage, and the 
> readers are more accustom to the footnotes, but footnote doesn't work for 
> ebook format, because devices' sizes vary, and portrait vs landscape view 
> affects text flow too so strictly speaking there isn't pagination.



The example syntax given in the EPUB specification[1] is:

http://www.idpf.org/2007/ops";>
…
 … 1 … 
…

…

…


[1] http://idpf.org/epub

-- 
David Dorward
http://dorward.me.uk



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Re: [WSG] cross-browser or vendor-specific CSS

[David Hucklesby]

On 6/29/12 11:08 AM, coder wrote:


- Original Message - From: "David Hucklesby"


Start with a simple design for mobile and old browsers. Add advanced
CSS inside @media queries or qualified by :root.


qualified by :root?  can you give us an example here?



In HTML, :root is functionally equivalent to "html". Not supported by IE
prior to version 9, so a rule like this:

:root .thumbs .figure { display: inline-block; }

...would be ignored by old IE.

HTH
--
Cordially,
David




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Re: [WSG] cross-browser or vendor-specific CSS

[David Hucklesby]

On 6/29/12 7:20 AM, Kevin Erickson wrote:

Hi, I am asking if anyone uses  http://ecsstender.org/ to write CSS
cross-browser code or, if not, what are you using to write CSS
cross-browser or vendor-specific code?



Short answer - I don't even try to make all browsers act alike. :)

Start with a simple design for mobile and old browsers. Add advanced CSS
inside @media queries or qualified by :root. Enhance IE 7 and 8 if you need
to with rules governed by conditional comments.

This is my version of "progressive enhancement." YMMV.

Looking at the documentation for eCSStender suggests to me there's going to
be a severe performance hit on page load. I hope I'm wrong.
--
Cordially,
David


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Re: [WSG] More on forms

[David Dorward]

 
On 19 May 2012, at 10:04, coder wrote:
>  var re = new RegExp('[<>\?\\[\\]]', 'g');
> What I'm asking now is, is there an equivalent function using words instead 
> of characters?

In a regular expression "bar" will match "bar" while "[bar]" will match "b" or 
"a" or "r". Just don't use the square brackets.

(You should also use regular expression literals ( /bar/ instead of new 
RegExp("bar") ) as they avoid having to escape things for regex and then escape 
them again for the string.)

-- 
David Dorward
http://dorward.me.uk



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Re: [WSG] list heading – best practice?

[David Dorward]

 
On 2 Mar 2012, at 17:07, Hanspeter Kadel wrote:

> looks like back in 1984 people could use  for the job. 

No, they couldn't. It was proposed for HTML 3, but that spec was ditched in 
favour of documenting the then current state of the browser wars.

> how to do it in 2012?


 before the list.

-- 
David Dorward
http://dorward.me.uk



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Re: [WSG] WSG: Best Practice "Page/Content Tools" [SEC=UNOFFICIAL]

[David Hucklesby]

On 2/26/12 2:06 PM, Blumer, Luke wrote:

Hi all,

I have been looking at sites that contain a selection of tools for
content, generally looking after print, email, and text size, shown
in the below site.

http://www.educationtaxrefund.gov.au/



I'm not sure why you'd need that - assuming visitors even notice or
bother to investigate those buttons. Please don't emulate it too
closely. A "bigger" text size of 15px still looks tiny on my laptop. :(

You can give this functionality to everyone using CSS and a normal email
link - even when scripting is blocked.

Personally, I'm considering using a size that defaults to 20px body text
at the fairly usual 96 DPI desktop setting. (i.e. 125%.) I got used to
that size on my previous laptop that was set to 120 DPI. On a 14 inch
screen, 1400px by 1050px, it seemed right.
--
Cordially,
David



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[WSG] Re: WSG Digest (Out of office)

[David Linden]

Hi 

I'm out of the office from 28 Dec, returning Tuesday 3 January 2012.

If you message is urgent you can contact me on 0431 183 204.

Regards

David Linden
This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and may contain legally 
privileged information.  They are intended solely for the use of the individual 
or entity to whom it is addressed and must not be copied, forwarded or 
disclosed to anyone without the sender's consent.  If you are not the intended 
recipient, any use, dissemination, forwarding or copying of this e-mail and any 
attachments is strictly prohibited.  If you have have received this e-mail in 
error, please advise via reply e-mail to the sender.  Please destroy the 
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Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites

[David Hucklesby]

On 12/21/11 9:35 AM, Patrick H. Lauke wrote:

On 21/12/2011 17:14, David Hucklesby wrote:

Excellent points. If your reason for wanting to open a new window or tab
is to be helpful, I suggest telling your visitors about the right-click
option right there on your web page.


Ah, but then do you also need explain about tap-and-hold context menus
on touchscreens? Or about keyboard shortcut equivalents, for all
browser/OS combinations? And for those who do know, does it not sound
patronising? It's a difficult balancing act, and I generally take the -
maybe hardline - attitude that it's not our job to educate users about
how to use their browsers. As long as our site works for them, we
shouldn't require them to learn new commands/ways of working (this
reminds me of my many futile attempts to get
parents/wife/friends/colleagues to "correctly" use features in
software...and then being reminded of http://xkcd.com/763/ )

:)

P


LOL.
--
Cordially,
David




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Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites

[David Hucklesby]

On 12/21/11 5:04 AM, Patrick H. Lauke wrote:

On 21/12/2011 12:16, coder wrote:

In one sense, this argument is fallacious, because whatever the
web designer does decides what happens when a user just 'clicks a
link'. In my experience, most folk 'out there' don't know about
right clicking. To say 'it is the user's choice' is mainly untrue,
because he/she doesn't know they've got a choice, and what happens
depends upon what the designer has coded.


A tired argument, but based on the premises that:

- most users don't know they can open links explicitly in a new
window/tab - the vast majority of links out on t'internet are simply
that, straight links, with no extra target="_blank" or similar

the fact that a link takes them away to another site is, as a
consequence, the expected behaviour that those non-savvy users have.
By trying to be extra good ("here, let me open this in a new window
for you"), designers may arguably be breaking that expectation and
confusing those users, rather than helping them.


[...]

Excellent points. If your reason for wanting to open a new window or tab
is to be helpful, I suggest telling your visitors about the right-click
option right there on your web page. If a link does open a new window,
say so. A case could be made for opening PDFs in a new window. But this
always breaks the back button, and I doubt there are many who don't know
about that browser feature. :)
--
Cordially,
David


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Re: [WSG] Is it possible to style an attribute?

[David Hucklesby]

On 12/19/11 10:47 PM, Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis wrote:

On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 4:38 AM, Grant Bailey wrote:

Hello,

I was wondering if anyone could clarify whether it is possible to
style an attribute. I realise this sounds odd, so allow me to
explain what I wish to do.

In my web page there are a number of terms that need to be
defined. I like the user to be able to hover over the term and get
the definition that way. For example:


[...]


In general, I'd strongly recommend putting your definitions in plain
 view, along with anything else users might want to read:

teleportation, made famous in theStar Trek TV
series

Simple, robust, understood.


[...]

Expanding on Benjamin's good suggestion, if your intent is to avoid
"cluttering" the main text with these definitions, you could put them
into a margin to one side of the text. ("Sidenotes.")

I stole this idea from Robert Bringhurst's "The Elements of Typographic
Style." Lots more ideas relevant to web page layout in that book. :)
--
Cordially,
David


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Re: [WSG] Accessible Slideshow

[David Laakso]

On 12/6/11 12:44 PM, Ted Drake wrote:




These are just some of the features I would look for in an accessible 
slideshow.



--
Ted Drake



Does such a slideshow exist; and, if so, can you please point to one 
that uses those features... and, includes any other features that are 
important to an accessible slideshow?


~d

--
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http://chelseacreekstudio.com/



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Re: [WSG] Divs for tabular data

[David McKinnon]

Thanks for the sanity check everyone :)
I was worried that I'd missed something.

I'd seen the YUI table module, thanks Ted, and I know of at least two jQuery 
plugins that do the same thing so yeah, I'm not sure why they wouldn't use one 
of those.
They're saying it's faster to use divs compared to just tables, Hassan, but 
with the amount of extra code required it seems counter-productive. I'll see if 
I can get you an example. The grid is mostly hard-coded, but each row/cell is 
created dynamically so i'm not sure what the advantage is -- more investigation 
required!

And no laughing please, this is serious 



On 06/12/2011, at 4:14 AM, Ted Drake wrote:

> I remember seeing this for the first time. I was asked by a backend engineer
> to help them fix a layout issue in a data table. When I looked at the source
> code, the page was a jumble of absolutely positioned cells to look like a
> data table. I shook my head and said he was on his own. I wasn't about to
> wade into that mess.
> 
> Positioned divs would be completely inaccessible. It would be a string of
> numbers with no context to what they mean.
> 
> YUI makes a great data table module.
> http://yuilibrary.com/yui/docs/datatable/
> You can easily make your data table sortable, generate charts, make it super
> accessible and more. You can't do the same with positioned divs.
> 
> ted
> 
> 
> On 12/5/11 8:44 AM, "Hassan Schroeder"  wrote:
> 
>> On 12/4/11 11:22 PM, David McKinnon wrote:
>>> OK, so I'm working on a project in which the developers are laying out
>>> tabular data using divs.
>> 
>>> They say this is good because:
>>> 
>>> 1. It's fast
>> 
>> Compared to what?
>> 
>>> 2. They can manipulate the resulting DOM much more easily than they could
>>> with a table
>> 
>> Would love to see examples.
>> 
>>> 3. Developers find it easier to, say, add or remove columns from the tables,
>>> without having to
>>>edit the code all the way down the table (no wysiwyg editors here!)
>> 
>> ?"all the way down the table"? So, a hard-coded data table, rather
>> than a set of rows populated by looping through a data source?
>> 
>> That's just sad. Perhaps you can gently hint that it's now the 21st
>> Century. And these people call themselves "developers"?
>> 
>>> What do you think? Are tables too hard for the real world ...
>> 
>> Stop! My sides!! :-)
>> 
>> FWIW,
> 
> 
> 
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[WSG] Desktop. Tablet. Mobile.

[David Laakso]

Comments and suggestions welcome.

This end OS X 10.4: Parallels IE 6/7/8 on IETester.
Android/2.2.2 with Opera Mobile and OperaMini.



Best,
Jimi Hendrix

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[WSG] Divs for tabular data

[David McKinnon]

OK, so I'm working on a project in which the developers are laying out tabular 
data using divs.
The site is using the 960 CSS grid system so making the 'tables' work just 
means applying the appropriate class to align each div/table cell to the grid.
They say this is good because:
It's fast
They can manipulate the resulting DOM much more easily than they could with a 
table
Developers find it easier to, say, add or remove columns from the tables, 
without having to edit the code all the way down the table (no wysiwyg editors 
here!)
To me this doesn't seem very good because:
It's not very semantic (although they've used micro data in the class names for 
some divs)
It doesn't seem very accessible -- I might be wrong about this, but to me good 
semantics is foundational to accessibility
There's a lot of markup -- I know tables aren't exactly light on code, but they 
seem quite light and efficient in comparison
It doesn't seem to me like the code will be very easy to maintain for anyone 
but the developers.

The lead developers assure me that this is good practice for speed and 
efficiency, but I'm not convinced.
Nevertheless, I don't want to be advocating tables as best practice if they 
aren't.

What do you think? Are tables too hard for the real world in large sites or web 
apps where large amounts of DOM manipulation is required? Or have these guys 
taken the 'Tables are bad' thing a bit too far?

Kind regards,
David
 


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Re: [WSG] Content div sticking out the side of container div

[David Hucklesby]

On 12/2/11 8:01 PM, Stevio wrote:

Thanks for the suggestions. I am trying to develop a flexible layout (so
I do not want to set a width for the parent element) for web sites that
will be used in conjunction with a content management system. The width
of child element will therefore be unknown as well depending on what
content and images have been entered.

I would much rather that the browser's horizontal scrollbar appear for
the page than have the content stick out the side which looks very ugly
and messy.

Even if I specify a % for the child element, the contents of the child
element may be greater in width.

I have found a solution and that is to use display:table-cell. Even in
2011, there are still situations where the use of tables in one form or
another still trumps other display options lol. If you want something
that expands and contracts to fit its contents, tables (the CSS variety)
still seem to be the best option.



FWIW "display: inline-block;" "float: left|right;" "position: absolute;" 
also exhibit a shrink-to-fit behavior.
As already mentioned, "max-width: 100%;" on the child element may stop 
it poking out of the parent.


CSS gives you many options. :)
--
Cordially,
David




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Re: [WSG] nav element

[David Hucklesby]

On 11/22/11 6:32 AM, Frances de Waal wrote:

Hi,

Working with the semantical HTML5 elements I keep feeling aversion
to the extra elements I am producing. Like the nav element, using it
as a container for a menu in an list does not feel as an advantage,
I never needed a container for the list before. I trained myself in
keeping the code as clean and small as possible and now I am simply
creating more elements.

How about a nav element containing just links? I can think of answer
myself like that a nav element may also contain a header, or contain
paragraph with links inside the text. So this could lead to the
conclusion that (with keeping in mind to never use an element unless
you need it) that I should only use the nav element in such cases,
and that a nav element around a simple list is not adding anything
to it but creating more code.

Anyone having any thoughts on this?



FWIW - I also include a heading element inside the  element (or
 ). This is for the benefit of non-visual agents, or
for cases where CSS is not applied. ("Go naked day" ???)

example:

  Site Navigation
  
 Home
 ...
  


This heading is not needed where convention dictates the purpose of the
links - as in the case of a menu bar, for example. So it can be moved
off screen or otherwise visually hidden, but available to screen readers
etc.

HTH.
--
Cordially,
David


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Re: [WSG] Using ellipsis to indicate truncated overflow content

[David Laakso]

On 11/15/11 12:49 AM, Grant Bailey wrote:


Is anyone able to offer suggestions as to how demonstrate to the user 
that overflow content has been truncated, like this (see attachment).




Grant Bailey





I guess the question for me is whether I understand the question???

Set width in %, min-width in pixels, and max-width in em on the 
outermost page wrapper. Avoid use of position absolute and position 
fixed. Set the page blocks in  percent. Set p with margin left/right in 
percent and margin top/bottom in em or pixels. That will give you 
desktop. high d pi laptop, and both tablets [ horiz 1024 and vertical 768].


For mobile handsets you need to add a device width meta-tag. Kick the 
first media query in at around 560 and then another at 480 -- this will 
give you vertical and horizontal iPhone as well as low through high end 
Android. If you need to hit IE/6 then it needs to be hacked for doubling 
the margins and doing weird stuff to the height such as with vertical lists.


A rough layout using these principles: 



Best,
~d

--
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http://chelseacreekstudio.com/



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Re: [WSG] Wrapping text before float drop

[David Hucklesby]

On 11/3/11 10:52 AM, Stevio wrote:

If I have two floats side by side, both are floated left as follow:

.myfloat{ float:left; }

and both contain text as follows:

Longer amount of text. Longer amount of text.
Longer amount of text. Longer amount of text. Small amount of text.

Is there any way to prevent the second div from dropping below the
first div when the viewport is narrowed, without specifying widths
for either of the floats?



Other than ways already suggested, and assuming the shorter text fits on
one line, try putting the small amount of text first in the markup, and
floating that DIV only. You can apply a variety of styles to the longer
text to get it to fit the remaining space without "float drop."

It's a complex subject, but this page sums it up quite nicely, I think:

http://www.css-101.org/block-formatting-contexts/index.php
--
Cordially,
David




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Re: [WSG] Best Practice - Content Within Tables

[David Dorward]

On 12 Oct 2011, at 20:58, Lapcewich, Dennis wrote:
> Is it a best practice to wrap content in a table cell using  tags?

It is best practise to wrap paragraphs in a P element. If you have paragraphs 
in your table data (which is relatively rare, but still possible), then you 
should use P elements.

-- 
David Dorward
http://dorward.me.uk



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Re: [WSG] media queries can't understand body tag

[David Laakso]

On 9/29/11 5:28 PM, tee wrote:

Trying to figure all these another question has arisen. Take iPad for example 
which supports portrait and landscape, so if I have two separate images target 
for the two, doesn't it load two images? Say, I first view a page from 
landscape and this loads the image from it media query, then I switch to 
portrait, it loads the image from its media query, when it does, the one from 
landscape has already been loaded so it won't just magically gone when I am 
still at the portrait right?


tee




Keep it simple. Granted, this is far easier said than done, and god 
knows I am not good at it, either. But when push comes to shove, any 
site that requires anything beyond basic readability and functionality 
for its success [such as a decorative background image] -- regardless of 
whether it is viewed on desktop, laptop, tablet, or mobile  -- is in 
deep trouble.


Best,
~d


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Re: [WSG] media queries can't understand body tag

[David Laakso]

I did figure it after my post, from xcode's web inspector, a feature I never 
used before until today.


Tee





Care to share what you found out?
Thanks.

~d



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Re: [WSG] media queries can't understand body tag

[David Laakso]

On 9/28/11 8:27 PM, Hassan Schroeder wrote:



Maybe the third time's the charm --





Oh, easy for Leonardo!

-- Dylan Thomas


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Re: [WSG] media queries can't understand body tag

[David Laakso]

On 9/27/11 11:44 PM, Tom Livingston wrote:

David, with nothing but mobile Safari, if I hit a page with multiple queries or 
an element specced as display:none but has a bg image, how to you *verify* that 
an unwanted image loads anyway or not? There's no inspector that I'm aware of 
like desktop version.

Sent from my iPhone




With Android/2.2.2 [low-end touch screen] there is a horizontal yellow 
loading bar above the address bar-- it begins at the left rail and moves 
to the right rail. Opera Mobile and OperaMini on Android both have a 
circular whirling gizzmo loading button [same on a low-end SanyoMirro]. 
I had an iPhone several years ago but have forgotten what it used to 
display downloading. I am sure there  is a more scientific method than 
watching[timing] the loading gizzmo-- just don't know what it is. And 
either way, I did not memorize Tee's page address, and don't have time 
to look it up, or I'd check that page on my handset...


~d

--
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http://chelseacreekstudio.com/



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Re: [WSG] media queries can't understand body tag

[David Laakso]

On 9/27/11 10:29 PM, tee wrote:

Hi Tom,

Thank you. I don't know how to check it either, I have iPad and iPod, so would 
like to learn how to check too.



tee





Not terribly scientific but simply clear the cache on the iPad and the 
iPhone and view the page. You'll know whether it is loading in either or 
both devices.


~d





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Re: [WSG] RE: WSG Digest

[David Laakso]

On 9/27/11 5:04 AM, Dave Smith wrote:

Hi Tee

When trying the max/min width approach, was the Meta Viewport Tag used?
::trim::

all the best, Dave @davesmiths





Try also, simply:

~d

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Re: [WSG] media queries: device-width vs max/min width

[David Laakso]

On 9/25/11 5:38 PM, tee wrote:

I would love to hear what other think about the approach for device-width vs 
max/min width.

tee




The approach to "responsive" web design is not particularly difficult.  
Your "castle in the air" needs a simple and solid foundation. That's  
the key. The "one-size fits all" concept is an exercise in futility. 
What works for layout "A" will not necessarily work for layout "B." And 
either way, putting up a page or test page will buy you a lot more than 
writing about it...


Best,
~d

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Re: [WSG] IE9's Browser Mode Controls - Reliable?

[David Hucklesby]

On 9/23/11 7:58 AM, Janice Schwarz wrote:

On Fri, Sep 23, 2011 at 6:41 AM, Cole Kuryakin
wrote:


[...]


This way of switching browser modes (between 7, 8 and 9) is quite
convenient but... is it a true representation of how the project
will render in these three browsers?


[...]



I've been using those browser mode settings in IE for a while, even
in a corporate setting. They seem to be fairly accurate.

I think that, generally speaking, it is better than using
browsershots or browsercam, since those just give screenshots and
can't test functionality. I use those for testing things I don't have
access to (like Mac-specific or IE6 specific issues...even then,
those are only so helpful and only address layout issues, not
functionality).




Janice's points are valid. FWIW I have come across several bugs in IE 7
when page zoom is applied. Not only won't you see this from a screen
shot, but IE 8 in "compatibility mode" does not exhibit most of the
problems I came across. Not tried IE 9's modes, though.

As well as native browsers running in Windows installs under VMWare
Fusion on my Mac, I also use IETester in Windows 7. So far I have found
it accurate - and more convenient than firing up several VMs.

http://www.my-debugbar.com/wiki/IETester/HomePage

HTH.
--
Cordially,
David


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Re: [WSG] media queries can't understand body tag

[David Laakso]

On 9/18/11 5:43 PM, Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis wrote:

On Sun, Sep 18, 2011 at 4:34 PM, tee  wrote:

Hmmm, media queries can't understand body tag; a id or class for the tag is 
needed. Spec on W3C site doesn't indicate though as I see example like so:

@media all { body { background:lime } }

A browser bug?

Works for me in Chrome:

http://pastehtml.com/view/b7qe04of6.html

Do you have a testcase you can point to that fails in a named browser?

--
Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis





No issue  [the background is lime] in 
 in Mac OS X 10.4.11:

Safari/4.1.3
Opera/11.11
FF/3.6.22
WebKit/4.1.3 (4533.19.4, r63031)
Camino/2.1b1 (1.9.2.20pre 20110725195938)

~d


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Re: [WSG] flat form with check boxes [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

[David Thomas]

Hi Chris,

So what your saying is that your current website has form elements for printing 
the page and then ticked and submitted like a paper form?

There are a few possible ways that you could do this without involving forms 
that have no submit buttons, because yes it would be confusing for 
accessibility.

the first would be similar to the suggestion but instead of having, no submit 
buttons you could have a print button that prints the completed form or a blank 
form this would probably be best for usability also.

You could also do a list (ul) and have the style-type set to a image of a 
square box.

or maybe even have a pdf of the form because pdf's are a good for material that 
is meant to be printed.

Let us know how you go, as i'm also interested what everyone else thinks.

David Thomas
d...@daveycreative.com



On 12/09/2011, at 12:57 PM, Chris Vickery wrote:

> Hi all,
> We’ve got some flat forms on our site, ie. They are not interactive forms, 
> and have no submit button. They are indicating that it’s a check list that 
> can be ticked once the page is printed.
>  
> Someone suggested putting in regular check boxes and having no submit button, 
> but wouldn’t that make it confusing from both and accessibility and usability 
> point of view?
> At the same time using a graphical or styled element with Alt tag seems messy 
> and cringe worthy as a work around.
>  
> I’ve got my own ideas, but what does everyone think is best practice in this 
> case?
>  
> Regards,
> Chris
> 
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Re: [WSG] Fwd: Video in web page

[David Thomas]

Hi,

I would use youtube to embed a video in a webpage because i'm pretty shore that 
it defaults to flash but also has support for mobile and other devices. Youtube 
is really easy to implement, all you need to do is copy the embed code and it 
should work.

You can however user HTML5 with flash fallback if you didn't want the video on 
youtube although this requires converting it to a few different filetypes for 
compatibility and can be hard to implement.

Remember: Make the video accessible by adding captions and a descriptive text 
base transcript alternative.

David Thomas



On 07/09/2011, at 12:46 PM, grant_malcolm_bai...@westnet.com.au wrote:

> 
> Hello,
> 
> I would be grateful if someone could clarify the best means of embedding 
> video into a web page so as to be viewable by the widest range of users 
> (desktop, mobile, different OSs, etc).
> 
> Embedding Flash video is easy enough, however, iPhone / iPad users cannot 
> view this format and I need to address these users. (I would also like users 
> of other mobile devices to be able to view the video, but the iOS issue has 
> been insurmountable thus far).
> 
> Alternative formats suffer plugin difficulties. As we know, support for the 
>  element is still patchy.
> 
> Has anyone managed to find a way through this obstacle course? If so, I would 
> be grateful for your suggestions!
> 
> Many thanks and regards,
> 
> Grant Bailey
> University of Western Sydney
> 
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Re: [WSG] How do you cater to users with disabilities?

[David Laakso]

On 8/23/11 10:32 PM, tee wrote:


Then this will do...
body { font-family: sans-serif; }



If you ever do this, I strongly suggest you test it on older Windows System.

tee




Each and everyone of you win. I give-up. I have taken a coil of rope to 
the woods. Farewell.



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Re: [WSG] How do you cater to users with disabilities?

[David Laakso]

On 8/23/11 7:32 PM, Tom Ditmars wrote:

On 2011-08-23 19:12, David Laakso wrote:

It is relevant only if you are one of the few on the planet who are
concerned with typography and see Verdana for what it is at default:
pug-ugly.


While that might be your opinion, it's not necessarily relevant to the
topic of this discussion: Usability and Web Standards.



Then this will do...
body { font-family: sans-serif; }


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Re: [WSG] How do you cater to users with disabilities?

[David Laakso]

On 8/23/11 2:07 PM, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote:

On Tue, 23 Aug 2011, David Laakso wrote:


On 8/23/11 3:53 AM, Mike Kear wrote:

Mike Kear
http://afpwebworks.com




Setting the fonts at user default


   Absolutely!


and ditching Verdana is the first place to start...


   Totally irrelevant. There is nothing wrong with Verdana; it is only
   very slightly larger than Helvetica or Arial. Problems only
   occur when its font size is reduced to compensate.




It is relevant only if you are one of the few on the planet who are 
concerned with typography and see Verdana for what it is at default: 
pug-ugly.






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Re: [WSG] How do you cater to users with disabilities?

[David Laakso]

On 8/23/11 3:53 AM, Mike Kear wrote:

Mike Kear
http://afpwebworks.com




Setting the fonts at user default and ditching Verdana is the first 
place to start...




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Re: [WSG] iOS Safaro issue (?): Fixed and Absolute position

[David Laakso]

On 8/10/11 10:30 PM, tee wrote:

iOS Safari has rendering issue with fixed position, that is, the element will 
stay at the middle of the page when the hight of content is longer than the 
device height.


Anyway to get around this?


tee



I think position:fixed works on iOS5...


[1]

[2}




Best,
~d



--
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Re: [WSG] a:link behaviors issues

[David Dorward]

 
On 29 Jul 2011, at 14:14, Oliver Boermans wrote:

> Mathew is asking the pertinent question.
> There are five pseudo selectors to consider on links:
> 
> :link
> :visited
> :focus
> :hover
> :active
> 
> By applying the font attributes to link and visited you leave the others 
> undefined.

A link doesn't stop being a link just because it is a hovered, focused or 
active link.

:link and :visited are mutually exclusive (since :link means "unvisited link") 
but the other pseudo-classes stack (with them and each other).

The only time you need to worry about focus/hover/active applying when 
link/visited don't is when you have a non-linked anchor (which you shouldn't 
have these days since `id` on a heading or div/section/etc makes more sense).

-- 
David Dorward
http://dorward.me.uk



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Re: [WSG] HTML5 and invalid meta tags

[David Dorward]

 
On 26 Jul 2011, at 11:12, designer wrote:

> I notice that some meta tags (like copyright) are invalid html5. The 
> validator complains of a 'bad value'. I've searched for this and indeed found 
> refs to others having the same problem, but I didn't find anything which 
> details the change as such, or indeed why.
>  
> Is it real, or do I just ignore it as a blip?  Anyone know what's going on?

http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/semantics.html#standard-metadata-names

I love this bit, it makes having the restriction feel so worthwhile:
> Extensions to the predefined set of metadata names may be registered in the 
> WHATWG Wiki MetaExtensions page. [WHATWGWIKI]
> 
> Anyone is free to edit the WHATWG Wiki MetaExtensions page at any time to add 
> a type.
> 


-- 
David Dorward
http://dorward.me.uk



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RE: [WSG] Modal forms - what to call them?

[Nixon David]

I usually go with business activity - business function with my modal
forms (SharePoint)
e.g. Records - Declare a new record

-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org]
On Behalf Of Stevio
Sent: 20 July 2011 16:46
To: Web Standards Group
Subject: [WSG] Modal forms - what to call them?

I am working on a CMS and within it, when a user wishes to add a record,
I give them two options:
1) Add record - this goes to a new web page with a form.
2) Add record modally - this brings up a modal dialog box containing the
form which allows them to add the record without leaving the page they
were on (this page lists the current records). This uses jQuery. Once
they add the record, the list of records is updated using AJAX.

However, what user-friendly descriptive name should I use for the modal
forms? I doubt many people know the word modal. Any suggestions?

It would be laid out as follows:
Add record (pop-up dialog box)?

Clicking on 'Add record' takes the user to a new page, while clicking on
'pop-up dialog box' opens the modal form.

However, I would like something shorter and simpler than 'pop-up dialog
box'. Any thoughts?

Thanks,
Stephen 



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Re: [WSG] html5 quest: figure

[David Laakso]

On 7/18/11 7:47 PM, tee wrote:

Or maybe the question should be , can a single figure contains many figcaption? 
And use it for slidershow's markup.

Thanks!

tee





Not really sure whether this answers your question from an article in 
"html5 doctor" but either way you may want to check it for yourself [1].


"The || element is optional and can appear before /or/ after 
the content within the |. Only one || element may be 
nested within a |, although the | element itself may 
contain multiple other child elements (e.g., || or ||).|||"

[1]


~d



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[WSG] Re: WSG Digest (Out of office)

[David Linden]

Hi 

I'm currently out of the office. Please contact Kieran Curtain on (03) 9269 
0652 (ext. 652 in Melbourne) .

Regards

David Linden 
This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and may contain legally 
privileged information.  They are intended solely for the use of the individual 
or entity to whom it is addressed and must not be copied, forwarded or 
disclosed to anyone without the sender's consent.  If you are not the intended 
recipient, any use, dissemination, forwarding or copying of this e-mail and any 
attachments is strictly prohibited.  If you have have received this e-mail in 
error, please advise via reply e-mail to the sender.  Please destroy the 
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[WSG] OperaMini

[David Laakso]

What will stop this test-case [1] from jumping from default to a larger 
font-size in OperaMini in /landscape/ view  (resumes default with reload)?
It is fine in OperaMini portrait view. And on the same device there is 
no problem in portrait /or/ landscape view in Android/2.2.2 and Opera 
Mobile.


[1]


Thanks.
~d

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[WSG] Re: WSG Digest (Out of office)

[David Linden]

Hi 

I'm currently out of the office. Please contact Kieran Curtain on (03) 9269 
0652 (ext. 652 in Melbourne) .

Regards

David Linden 
This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and may contain legally 
privileged information.  They are intended solely for the use of the individual 
or entity to whom it is addressed and must not be copied, forwarded or 
disclosed to anyone without the sender's consent.  If you are not the intended 
recipient, any use, dissemination, forwarding or copying of this e-mail and any 
attachments is strictly prohibited.  If you have have received this e-mail in 
error, please advise via reply e-mail to the sender.  Please destroy the 
original transmission and its contents.


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[WSG] Re: WSG Digest (Out of office)

[David Linden]

Hi 

I'm currently out of the office. Please contact Kieran Curtain on (03) 9269 
0652 (ext. 652 in Melbourne) .

Regards

David Linden 
This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and may contain legally 
privileged information.  They are intended solely for the use of the individual 
or entity to whom it is addressed and must not be copied, forwarded or 
disclosed to anyone without the sender's consent.  If you are not the intended 
recipient, any use, dissemination, forwarding or copying of this e-mail and any 
attachments is strictly prohibited.  If you have have received this e-mail in 
error, please advise via reply e-mail to the sender.  Please destroy the 
original transmission and its contents.


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Re: [WSG] Breaking validation using noscript - Is there a solution?

[David Dorward]

On 14 Jul 2011, at 16:50, Chad Kelly wrote:
> Just on the  tag, isn't it meant to be used within the JS itself

No. 

Re: [WSG] IE issues: display none vs absolute position for show/hide effect

[David Hucklesby]

On 6/15/11 10:24 PM, tee wrote:

Repost, change subject line.

David and Jon,

I am not trying to hide the texts from desktop screen and has screen
reader able to read it - I want the content be available at all time
for search engines, browsers, CSS enabled/disabled and JS
enabled/disabled.

I am simply using a simple show/hide script to achieve a visual
effect - a show/hide effect like this:
http://www.learningjquery.com/2006/09/slicker-show-and-hide


[...]


But IE appears to have issue when no "display:none" is used.


jQuery('#mini-cart').hide(); jQuery('#mini-cart-a').click(function()
{ jQuery('#mini-cart').toggle(400); return false; });




But that's the reason it shows up momentarily on slow connections. I
suspect it only shows in IE due to longer latency in those old browsers
- JavaScript takes a whole bunch longer to kick in.

Using jQuery "hide" comes too late in those browsers. Which is precisely
the problem that the solution I offered is designed to address.

Some folks sure are stubborn! ;)
--
Cordially,
David


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Re: [WSG] IE7 page load issue, can it be prevented?

[David Hucklesby]

On 6/14/11 7:45 PM, tee wrote:

David,

Thanks for the response. I made two screencasts.

In advanced browsers and no problem. The "dropdown" at the left top
somtimes does show through if the connection is very slow and the
page takes more than 10 seconds to load.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z11rqWBLLuc


In this movie taken from IE7, between 17 to 18 seconds you can see
the hidden layers (choose your tea and tea bag (2) ) shown through
while the page is still loading.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dI9QvAFKoSM

I am trying to find a way if it's possible to prevent this from
happening despite the slow connection.


On Jun 14, 2011, at 8:21 AM, David Hucklesby wrote:


On 6/13/11 6:31 PM, tee wrote:

Some pages of the site loads very slow in IE7 (about 15
seconds), and while the page was loading and (I assume) IE7 was
still parsing the scripts, all the hidden elements shown through.
I wander if there is a way to prevent this.

https://picasaweb.google.com/weblist99/Jun132011?authkey=Gv1sRgCKrj4sKyz-33-gE&feat=directlink

[...]






Here's what works for me. I include this code in the  of the document:


  document.documentElement.className='js';


To display/hide an element, div#part-2 for example, use this CSS:

.js #part-2 { display: none; } /* hide if JS is enabled */

Apologies if I misunderstood. Your example code is beyond my
comprehension this early morning... :(



Tee,

How are you hiding that content in the first place? (Your code is beyond
my feeble brain's comprehension. Sorry.)

This is exactly what the code I sent you is meant to avoid. Without JS,
the hidden content shows up. With JS, the 'js' class is applied before
the page loads. Thus the CSS rule to hide that content applies, and the
content has no chance of appearing until your script overrides it.

Does this not work for you? Or are you using this technique, and somehow
find it fails?

Sorry I can't be much more help.
--
Cordially,
David



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Re: [WSG] IE7 page load issue, can it be prevented?

[David Hucklesby]

On 6/13/11 6:31 PM, tee wrote:

Some pages of the site loads very slow in IE7 (about 15 seconds),
and while the page was loading and (I assume) IE7 was still parsing
the scripts, all the hidden elements shown through. I wander if there
is a way to prevent this.

https://picasaweb.google.com/weblist99/Jun132011?authkey=Gv1sRgCKrj4sKyz-33-gE&feat=directlink




If I understand you correctly, you have sections on the page that are
set to display if JavaScript is off, but want to hide them before the
page loads in the event scripting is enabled?

Wisely, you don't rely on the  element - that does not work if
scripts are blocked by a firewall.

Here's what works for me. I include this code in the  of the document:

  
  
document.documentElement.className='js';
  

To display/hide an element, div#part-2 for example, use this CSS:

.js #part-2 { display: none; } /* hide if JS is enabled */

Apologies if I misunderstood. Your example code is beyond my
comprehension this early morning... :(
--
Cordially,
David



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Re: [WSG] mobile

[David Laakso]

Greetings from San Juan, Puerto Rico.

re: 






Thanks all.

Best,
Milagros Sanchez



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[WSG] mobile

[David Laakso]

Greetings from San Juan, Puerto Rico.

re: 

Constructive comments are always welcome. Specifically we are interested 
to know if the images within the portfolio section fill the window 
horizontally in both portrait and landscape view in handsets smaller 
than 320 by 480.


This end:
mobile-- Samsung Galaxy Prevail for BoostMobile with Android/2.2.2.
desktop--Mac 0S X 10.4.11.

Thanks for your assistance.

Best,
Milagros Sanchez,
Creative Director,
Chelsea Creek Studio



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Re: [WSG] the image is not showing in IE7

[David Hucklesby]

On 6/3/11 7:47 AM, Joseph Taylor wrote:

Try losing the double quotes like:

win.document.write('Loading...');


[...]


On 6/3/11 10:34 AM, Mahendran Venkatesan wrote:


Hi Folks!

I just tried to open a popup window. And, dynamically i embed an
image in the popup window. The image is not showing up in IE
browsers. But it's being seen in FireFox.

the code looks like below:


[...]

You may like to try using innerHTML instead of document.write();

With pop-up blockers everywhere, pop-up windows increasingly don't work.
They are a usability problem as well. I'd look for an alternative
solution if I were you.
--
Cordially,
David


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Re: [WSG] Site test?

[David Laakso]

On 5/21/11 5:22 PM, Telford Computer Doctor wrote:


Just in the process of designing a website for a client, just 
wondering whether iPad, iPhone, mobile users could give me some 
feedback as to the jQuery used - whether it works basically.


http://www.telfordcomputerdoctor.co.uk/lt

Only the homepage is complete at the moment, as it is still in design 
stages.


Thanks in advance,
Mike @ Telford Computer Doctor





Mobile:
Samsung Galaxy Prevail [Android/2.2.2] for BoostMobile [low-end "smart 
phone" with touch screen].


The page is not "mobile-friendly" on this end.
Full width header footer. Content two column.
Content in left column and 3 column footer unreadable on landing 
portrait or landscape.
+3 or +4 font-scaling necessary to make content readable but this draws 
a horizontal scroll bar.


You may find this article by Bruce Lawson helpful in determining  the 
mobile strategy you and your client wish to employ...



Desktop [if of concern]:
Landing on primary content tiny-type at 116.5dpi on a MacBook Pro may be 
as difficult for some of your users as it is for me.
Minimum font-size 16 set in the prefs in Mac Firefox/3.6.17 causes the 
contact info to break out the right-side of the outermost container.
Minimum font-size 32 set in the prefs in Mac Opera/11.11 [same as above] 
and the 3col footer content breaks out the bottom of the outermost 
container.


Best wishes and good luck,
~d

--
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http://chelseacreekstudio.com/fa/



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Re: [WSG] Accessible Modal/Lightbox Code

[David Dorward]

 
On 17 May 2011, at 17:05, Carl Heaton wrote:

> You are mainly looking for CSS3 type things as full accessibility means no 
> Javascript.

No, it doesn't. 

Start with something that provides access to all the content with plain HTML. 
Apply JavaScript over the top of it to provide an enhanced experience. Make 
sure that the JS doesn't introduce problems for users of screen readers, screen 
magnifiers, non-pointer based input devices, etc and you are accessible.

You have to check the same things with CSS based solutions too. I've seen 
plenty of :hover based interfaces that have no keyboard fallback.

Take the second item on the list on the page you pointed to, for instance. When 
I focus the Clickbox Gallery link, a photo unexpectedly and jarringly pops up. 
I haven't found a way to navigate to the next/prev links that appear when I use 
a mouse, or found any other way to get access to the other images. So, despite 
being CSS 3 based and without JavaScript, a cursory glance at it leads me to 
conclude that it is highly inaccessible. 

-- 
David Dorward
http://dorward.me.uk



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Re: [WSG] Can I have a Safari check?

[David Laakso]

On 5/9/11 4:02 PM, tee wrote:

http://208.43.169.106/m151/index.php/patterns.html

Add the product to cart. What do you see after that?


tee






Mac OS X 10.4.11
Safari 4.1.3(4533.19.4)
test was added to your shopping cart.

Best,
~d


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Re: [WSG] Desktop. Tablet. Mobile.

[David Laakso]

uri: 
~d





Thanks to all of you who took time to view the site and share your 
thoughts and opinions...


Best,
~d





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Re: [WSG] Desktop. Tablet. Mobile.

[David Laakso]

On 5/6/11 11:42 AM, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote:

On Fri, 6 May 2011, David Laakso wrote:



This end...
Desktop: OS X 10.4
Tablet: No got.
Mobile: OperaMini os SanyoMirro 4 BoostMobile.

uri: <http://chelseacreekstudio.com/m/>


 Text is cut off: <http://t.cfaj.ca/mentor.jpg>



In what OS, in what browser, in what size window, at what plus 
font-scaling, or minimum font size?


~d



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[WSG] Desktop. Tablet. Mobile.

[David Laakso]

First-pass. Comments and suggestions appreciated.

This end...
Desktop: OS X 10.4
Tablet: No got.
Mobile: OperaMini os SanyoMirro 4 BoostMobile.

uri: 

Thanks.
Best,
~d

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Re: [WSG] Mobile detection using CSS media queries

[David Laakso]

On 5/3/11 3:16 AM, Caleb Wong wrote:

Hi,

Is it safe to use just css media to target mobile devices such as 
iphone, blackberry, android phones?
And assume if I'm only embedding 1 stylesheet with various media 
queries in it, would there be any lag in the page style load?


Has anyone got some good examples/articles for targeting mobile platforms?

Cheers
Caleb




Generally, and for new small sites, that approach works well.
But "one size does not necessarily fit all..."
Depending on your particular situation and need this article on mobile 
optimization and strategy may be helpful.


Best,
~d



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Re: [WSG] Title tags - site name then keywords?

[David Dorward]

 
On 19 Apr 2011, at 20:30, Stevio wrote:

> When it comes to search engine optimisation,

Stop. Build sites for people, not robots. Search engines are optimising to find 
the best sites for people, aim for the same target as they are.

> are you better to list the site
> name/business name first in the title tag, and then keywords, or the other
> way round?

Specific title first. If the visitor has multiple pages from your site open in 
tabs, then they will be indistinguishable with the generic bit first. 

> e.g. ABC Engineering Ltd - Steel Fabrication, Pipework, Welding
> or
> Steel Fabrication, Pipework, Welding - ABC Engineering Ltd

And put titles in the title element, not a list of keywords.

-- 
David Dorward
http://dorward.me.uk



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Re: [WSG] Need to access parent content from iframe

[David Dorward]

 
On 5 Apr 2011, at 11:48, Elankeeran / இளங்கீரன் V wrote:

> if both the page are in different domain and if your owning both page then 
> you can add below line in the top of your both page
> 
> window.domain="yourdomainname";

From: https://developer.mozilla.org/en/document.domain

> In the DOM HTML specification, this property is listed as being read-only. 

So you shouldn't be able to do that.

> However, Mozilla will let you set it to a superdomain of the current value, 
> constrained by its base domain. For example, on developer.mozilla.org it is 
> possible to set it to "mozilla.org" but not "mozilla.com" or "org".

So you can, but only in non-standard and very limited ways.

-- 
David Dorward
http://dorward.me.uk



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Re: [WSG] Need to access parent content from iframe

[David Dorward]

 
On 5 Apr 2011, at 11:55, Mahendran Venkatesan wrote:
> 
> I thought the policy is applicable only for accessing the content from parent 
> window to iframe. So, the access permission in both ways is not possible. 


It applies to all cross origin communication - XHR, frames, etc, etc.

-- 
David Dorward
http://dorward.me.uk



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Re: [WSG] Need to access parent content from iframe

[David Dorward]

On 5 Apr 2011, at 10:52, Mahendran Venkatesan wrote:
> In my website, I have a requirement like the iframe js should access the form 
> fields of parent window. I tried with "window.parent.document.forms", but it 
> is not working.
> 
> Is there any possibility to access the parent window content from iframe js?
> 
> p.s. The iframe and parent window are different domain. The js file resides 
> in iframe.

No. https://developer.mozilla.org/en/Same_origin_policy_for_JavaScript

-- 
David Dorward
http://dorward.me.uk



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Re: [WSG] what could be the cause that Safari can't load a page?

[David Laakso]

On 3/31/11 10:52 PM, tee wrote:




The load is continuous.
OS X 10.4
Safari/4.1.3
Had to force quit on video error.
Check markup:


~d


Thanks.

The first video link on the right column?

tee





Yes, I thi/m/k so.
As ever,
~quasimodo


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Re: [WSG] what could be the cause that Safari can't load a page?

[David Laakso]

On 3/31/11 6:09 PM, tee wrote:

http://bit.ly/eKE1He  (safe to click - I made the shorten url myself, but if 
you rather not clicking it, that's ok. The link goes to a blogger's site).



tee







The load is continuous.
OS X 10.4
Safari/4.1.3
Had to force quit on video error.
Check markup:


~d






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Re: [WSG] what is the exact version of FF 3.6 x prior to FF4?

[David Hucklesby]

On 3/31/11 1:44 AM, tee wrote:

Thanks all!


On Mar 31, 2011, at 1:05 AM, Fabien BENARIAC wrote:


After upgrading to FF4, most addons worked -- until I restarted
FF.

I just have to re-install firebug... YSlow was ok after for me.
btw, I think a upgrade is usefull (I don't understand why you want
to run FF3x modules with FF4x...)


Sometimes I hate it when I asked a simple question and having to end
up explaining the background story in details:)

I don't want to run FF3x addons with FF4x. I want to run a separate
FF3x with addons that don't work for FF4 yet.



Try http://davemartorana.com/multifirefox/
--
Cordially,
David


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Re: [WSG] why :first-child pseudo-class doesn't work for some selectors/elements?

[David Dorward]

Because those elements are not the first child element in their respective 
containers.


On 6 Mar 2011, at 10:03, tee wrote:

> http://jsbin.com/apate4/9/
> 
>  dt, dd { border-top:1px solid #555;float:left }
>  dt:first-child {border-top:0}
>dd:first-child {border-top:0}

  
   test
   There should be no border top here 

Since the  is not the first child, a selector using :first-child won't 
apply.


>  h2, p {background:#ddd;padding:15px;margin:5px}
>  h2:first-child,p:first-child  {background:#95B26B} p/s. I tried declared the 
> two individually as I thought maybe they can't be grouped, but it makes no 
> differences.

  
... 
   Heading 2 this is the first-child and the bg color 
should be in Olive. 

Ditto.

-- 
David Dorward
http://dorward.me.uk



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Re: [WSG] HTML5 v. HTML 4.x

[David Hucklesby]

On 1/27/11 6:42 AM, Steve Green wrote:

That's exactly my point. At any point in time there will be projects
where you should use safe, well-understood, well-supported
technologies and there will be other projects where you can try out
new cutting-edge ones. When making this choice, you should put aside
your personal preferences and broader goals (such as 'improving the
web' or 'forcing users to upgrade their browsers') and base it on
what's most appropriate for your client.



Agreed. But I don't see a conflict with HTML5 here. Over half your
client's audience likely has a browser that has excellent support for
established HTML5 features.

I believe that many features of HTML5 save time and effort, leaving you
with perhaps one or two non-conforming browsers for which you have to
code and test JavaScript routines. I'm thinking of embedded video;
required form fields; even fancy slider controls--things like that.

HTML5 is indeed an ongoing project, far from complete. But there are
many useful features that are well established and can save a lot of
headaches. This is becoming even more true as the Web rapidly moves from
an era of point-and-click to one of tap-and-swipe...
--
Cordially,
David


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Re: [WSG] HTML5 v. HTML 4.x

[David Dorward]

 
On 25 Jan 2011, at 08:34, Steve Green wrote:

> You can use it, but will anyone benefit from it? Assistive technologies don't 
> support much, if any, of the new semantics. I don't know if search engines 
> and other users of programmatic access to websites are currently able to make 
> use of HTML5 markup, but I have not seen anything to indicate that they do. 
> So what exactly is the benefit?

It saves having to rewrite the site when AT, SEs, etc do have significant 
support for them.

-- 
David Dorward
http://dorward.me.uk



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Re: [WSG] Aside and section

[David Laakso]

On 1/24/11 4:37 PM, David Laakso wrote:

On 1/24/11 2:41 PM, Tom Livingston wrote:

Is it ok to nest  elements inside the  element? Can't
come up with anything about this scenario on Google...


I'll have a first real attempt at an HTML5 page for critique soon...




Yes.

Best,
~d


Whoops.
I was thinking  inside  !
Dunno about  inside .
Try it and check it on the "html5 outliner" sent earlier.
~d


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Re: [WSG] Aside and section

[David Laakso]

On 1/24/11 2:41 PM, Tom Livingston wrote:

Is it ok to nest  elements inside the  element? Can't
come up with anything about this scenario on Google...


I'll have a first real attempt at an HTML5 page for critique soon...




Yes.



Best,
~d

--
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Re: [WSG] To or not to here is the question!!! [SEC=UNOFFICIAL]

[David Dorward]

On 19 Jan 2011, at 01:43, David Bromage wrote:

>  is non-standard and deprecated.

It can't be both.

> It is not valid HTML

'tis. Sadly. (So long as you accept drafts) 
http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/obsolete.html#the-marquee-element

> and is not supported by all browsers.

Yes, well, nor is abbr.

I don't like marquee, but the only argument I have against it (when the 
alternative is JavaScript to achieve the same effect) is that it is purely 
presentational and therefore doesn't belong in markup.

-- 
David Dorward
http://dorward.me.uk



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RE: [WSG] To or not to here is the question!!! [SEC=UNOFFICIAL]

[David Bromage]

UNOFFICIAL

 is non-standard and deprecated. It is not valid HTML and is not 
supported by all browsers.

 

A “web standards group” should adhere to web standards!

 

Regards

David

 

UNOFFICIAL


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Re: [WSG] Lightbox++ and mobiles etc

[David Laakso]

On 1/18/11 6:49 AM, designer wrote:
I making an html5 site with a few galleries, each one being a grid of 
images 4 rows of three thumbnails.  Clicking the thumbnails provides a 
600px wide image via lightbox++. The images are all 600px wide, but 
the heights are different.
When it comes to making the galleries visible on a mobile phone I do 
not have a problem since I've made the structure elastic and the grid 
shrinks to 6 rows of 2 images. Fine.   BUT : clearly, the lightbox 
images simply do not fit on the small screen and I wondered if anyone 
has solved the problem of how to stop the lightbox working on small 
screens? Media queries?

All suggestions welcome.
Many thanks,
Bob






Try it the other way around: lay it out in mobile first?
@media only screen and (max-width:480px),only screen and 
(max-device-width:480px) {...}


Best,
~d




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Re: [WSG] Default style declaration?

[David Dorward]

 
On 14 Jan 2011, at 18:40, Richard R. Hill wrote:
> 
> Yet, the W3C validation tolls never flag a missing default CSS language 
> declaration as an issue when validation XHTML.

The W3C Validation Service is a generic SGML/XML validator, not an HTML 
conformance checker. It doesn't check for things that are not expressed in the 
DTD (which this isn't, and couldn't be).

> Should we make sure our pages declare the default CSS type as we do for 
> Javascript?

If you use style attributes (which you shouldn't) or fiddle the style.* 
properties with JavaScript (which you shouldn't unless you need to deal with a 
wide range of values, such as when you are animating), then the spec requires 
that you do so. (Although this will, IIRC, change for (X)HTML 5).

>  Like:
> 
> 

 since you said 
XHTML.

-- 
David Dorward
http://dorward.me.uk



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Re: [WSG] CSS variable navigational menu`

[David Hucklesby]

On 1/9/11 10:24 AM, Thierry Koblentz wrote:

These two essentially are the same. I am assuming the menu is
controlled by a javascript, best practise is to use the  absolute
positioning to control submenu and use the toogle or mouseover to
trigger the sub-level.


I'm not sure this is considered best practice as keyboard users would
have to go through all the links in the menu before reaching the last
one. These two examples show the difference between styling the sub
menus off-screen or via display:none -
http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/new_drop_down/default.asp -
http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/keyboard_friendly_dropdown_menu/EK.asp




+1

I have adapted the first of these very successfully, even adding fancy
fade effects for those who have scripting enabled. Very adaptive, and
does exactly what you want, I think. (Assuming you only have few
sub-menu items, as your example indicates,,,)

Cordially,
David
--


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Re: [WSG] or ?

[David Laakso]

On 1/9/11 7:44 AM, designer wrote:

Hi L&G,

I am making a site (html5) which has a  section at the top of 
each page. Some pages will also have a 'menu' which will be a short 
list of links to other pages in the site, and these will appear lower 
down in the content of the page.


Instinct tells me that it is sensible to make this subset as follows:



blah
blah
blah

   (where blah is a link to a page)

But lots of folk seem to say that  is only to be used for lists 
of commands. It's not clear to me, anyway!  Is the above 'wrong'?


All advice gratefully recd.

Bob




I do not think the above is necessarily "wrong."
Another approach might be:

Top menu






Subset menu






Best,
~d


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Re: [WSG] CSS lists

[David Laakso]

On 1/7/11 8:10 PM, Thierry Koblentz wrote:

Hi all,

Besides the CSS-D list, which CSS lists would you recommend subscribing to?

Thanks,
--
Thierry




These come to mind???
The appropriate w3c list, and...




Best,
~d

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Re: [WSG] Detecting Mobile user agent - what methods work best?

[David Laakso]

On 07/01/2011 04:10, Mike Kear wrote:

I have to convert a client site to enable phone users to use the site
and I was wondering what is the best method to detect the mobile user
agent and switch the css sheet?




On mobile strategy:
Bruce Lawson

[Personally, I think media queries is the way to go.]

Best,
~d

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Re: [WSG] Detecting Mobile user agent - what methods work best?

[David Hucklesby]

On 1/6/11 8:10 PM, Mike Kear wrote:

I have to convert a client site to enable phone users to use the site
and I was wondering what is the best method to detect the mobile user
agent and switch the css sheet?

As far as I have seen, there are  a few ways to do this - which is
best? (or maybe the way to put it is  'least bad')

[A]  a link at the top of the normal page, linking to a mobile
version of the page.   (yuk)

[B] javascript detection (but there are thousands of mobile
devices to detect.   YUK )

[C] Use CSS @media handheld  (but many mobile phones don't support
the handheld media type )

[D] server side detection using CGI.User_Agent   (but there are so
many user agents to detect)

[E] screen resolution detection  (but is that reliable?)

Are there any other ways to do this?




Rather than doing a "switch" for mobile agents, I read recently a
proposal to do basic styling for mobile first. Then filter "advanced"
styles for browsers, from smart phones to desktops that understand
@media queries, simply by declaring some @media filters at the bottom of
the style sheet.

I don't remember where I read it, but it seems to me to have other
advantages--old browsers like IE6 would only get the simple styles, too,
making it much easier to give IE6 visitors a pleasant experience without
the usual extensive "fix-ups" some layouts seem to need.

While I don't have a link to the original, very short article, the idea
has been taken up by others:

<http://www.slideshare.net/bryanrieger/rethinking-the-mobile-web-by-yiibu>

(If that breaks, try http://goo.gl/VqJE )

The downside is that neither IE7 nor IE8 understand @media queries. The
idea I am playing with uses Paul Irish's "Conditional stylesheets vs CSS
hacks" idea to filter rules for IE 6-8.

<http://paulirish.com/2008/conditional-stylesheets-vs-css-hacks-answer-neither/>

(Broken? try http://goo.gl/CRQY )

I'll certainly be interested in any other possibilities. I have not got
very far with this myself...

Cordially,
David
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Re: [WSG] IE "hasLayout" - the long and short of it

[David Hucklesby]

Re: <http://thewebwiz.net/temp/has-layout-long-and-short/>

On 1/6/11 5:05 PM, Jon Reece wrote:

Hi David,

Sorry, I was in a hurry and didn't read all that I should have, also
didn't notice that removing hasLayout also removed the filter. Maybe
you want to try PIE (css3pie.com)?

- Jon


That had me stoked for a minute or so. VML--the poor webmaster's
 element--seemed such a good idea! Then I came across this in
the documentation for PIE:


In order to automatically detect element position and dimension
changes, PIE has to force "hasLayout" on the target element (in IE6
and IE7). It does so by applying the style zoom:1; to the element.


Oh, well. It seemed like such a good idea. Thanks.

P.S. On the actual site, I have overridden the "float" declaration on
the enclosing .vcalendar with "float: none;" for IE 6 and 7 only. The
headings are now full width on those browsers, and the sky has yet to
fall... ;)

Cordially,
David
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Re: [WSG] IE "hasLayout" - the long and short of it

[David Hucklesby]

On 1/6/11 9:43 AM, Thierry Koblentz wrote:

Hi David,


It appears to be the existence of "hasLayout" on the .vcalendar
that causes the problem (due to it being floated...)


I don't think this is the issue per se. Imho, the problem is that
this float is width-less. Give it with a width and things should
work the way you want.



Yes. You are correct. B-b-b-but -- giving it a width destroys the
"shrink-to-fit" behavior; the only reason for using a float in the first
place!

(I need to improve my language skills, as I seem unable to get this
point across...)

(FWIW I get the same result using other shrink-to-fit displays, since
they all introduce "layout" in older IE.)

Cordially,
David
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Re: [WSG] IE "hasLayout" - the long and short of it

[David Hucklesby]

On 1/5/11 11:12 PM, "G.Sørtun" wrote:

On 06.01.2011 07:21, David Hucklesby wrote:

Here's my attempt to put a gradient behind some headings. To get
Microsoft's gradient filter to work, I must give the headers
"layout." This causes the headings to expand in width in IE6, and
to shrink in IE7:

<http://thewebwiz.net/temp/has-layout-long-and-short/>


Since you're apparently are using an em-sized layout, removing all
present triggers and then adding...

.vcalendar h3 { width: 21em; }

...should trigger hasLayout without negative effects.



An essential part of the layout is the "shrink-to-fit" float around the
calendar. (It could be positioned or inline-block, too.) In real
browsers, the headings are only as wide as the longest calendar entry.
Applying a specific width won't give me this result. I tried width:
100%; but that failed the same way.

Thanks to Al, too. Your "quickie" solution is exactly what I am using!

It appears to be the existence of "hasLayout" on the .vcalendar that
causes the problem (due to it being floated...)

On 1/6/11 6:57 AM, Birendra wrote:

Hi David

As I seen your css, I try to add this value in your  css
"Display: Block"

And then see is it work or not.



Nope. Sorry.

Cordially,
David
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[WSG] IE "hasLayout" - the long and short of it

[David Hucklesby]

Here's my attempt to put a gradient behind some headings. To get
Microsoft's gradient filter to work, I must give the headers "layout."
This causes the headings to expand in width in IE6, and to shrink in IE7:

<http://thewebwiz.net/temp/has-layout-long-and-short/>

Any solution, even a scripting one, will be most gratefully welcome.
Thank you for your time.

Cordially,
David
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Re: [WSG] mobile

[David Laakso]

No doubt about it. You folks inspire an "empire state of mind" both on 
and off-list.


Thanks!

Best,
Jay-Z and Alicia Keys
PS Have one!



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Re: [WSG] mobile

[David Laakso]

On 12/30/10 9:10 AM, Rick Faircloth wrote:


Two comments...

1)I recommend a "Home" link on all pages.

I tried to get back "Home" and couldn't find a

way to get there, until I just happened to click

on your name at the top.

2)Just a minor thing, but I think the "Show / Hide Details"

would look better centered under each image.

Looks great on my Samsung Fascinate.

Rick




Best,
~d






Thanks. I will experiment with ways of making both of your thoughts 
happen 


Best,
~d


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Re: [WSG] mobile [+1]

[David Laakso]

- the box for a link on an active page is a pixel or two wider than
the other links


I am aware of this and have not been able to determine if it my 
error or

browser bug. On desktop WebKit/Safari/FF/Opera get it right, whereas
Chrome gets it wrong. Or, "the other way around" depending on how 
it is set.
nav ul li strong, body#p nav ul li strong, body.about nav ul li 
strong, body.contact nav ul li strong {

display: block;
margin: auto;
padding: 10px 0 14px; /*< change */
overflow: hidden; /*<-- really needed ???   */
width: 93%!important; /*<--- remove */
text-align:center; /*<--- add */
}

Philippe
---
http://l-c-n.com/






You'll find your off-list suggestion on my server on re-load.
Thank you so much, Philippe!

Best,
~d
PS Bows and scrapes...


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[WSG] Re: [WD]: mobile [+1]

[David Laakso]

On 12/29/10 10:59 PM, David Laakso wrote:

On 12/29/10 9:34 PM, Philippe Wittenbergh wrote:

On Dec 30, 2010, at 7:57 AM, David Laakso wrote:


- the box for a link on an active page is a pixel or two wider than
the other links


I am aware of this and have not been able to determine if it my 
error or

browser bug. On desktop WebKit/Safari/FF/Opera get it right, whereas
Chrome gets it wrong. Or, "the other way around" depending on how it 
is set.
nav ul li strong, body#p nav ul li strong, body.about nav ul li 
strong, body.contact nav ul li strong {

display: block;
margin: auto;
padding: 10px 0 14px; /*< change */
overflow: hidden; /*<-- really needed ???   */
width: 93%!important; /*<--- remove */
text-align:center; /*<--- add */
}

Philippe
---
http://l-c-n.com/






You'll find your off-list suggestion on my server on re-load.
Thank you so much, Philippe!

Best,
~d
PS Bows and scrapes...



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[WSG] mobile

[David Laakso]

If anyone has time to check this site [portrait/landscape] in their 
mobile device it is greatly appreciated.



Best,
~d



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Re: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet

[David Hucklesby]

On 12/20/10 6:14 PM, Chad Kelly wrote:

- Original Message - From: "Erickson, Kevin (DOE)"

To: 
Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2010 7:51 AM
Subject: RE: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet


Yes. Thank you Felix! "best viewed" works much better.

[...]

This is where I came in. (2002)



All that said, I don't test in IE6 anymore and have not done so for a
year or so.



The Year of Living Dangerously? ;)

Cordially,
David
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Re: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet

[David McKinnon]

Sorry Georg,
I should have read your article before (re)using that joke!

I still not sure I'd spend extra effort to effectively penalise IE6 users.
IE6 is not Netscape 4, its CSS support is not that bad.

...

I just realised I'm sticking up for IE6!
Must be the payback for all the nasty things I've said about it :)

David
 

On 20/12/2010, at 8:13 AM, David McKinnon wrote:

> Sounds like you're going to a lot of effort to make the IE6 experince worse 
> than it needs to be.
> Is this *dis*graceful degradation? ;)
> 
> David
> 
> On 20/12/2010, at 1:18 AM, tee  wrote:
> 
>> Thanks. I need to look into it and run a few tests.
>> 
>> I think it may not be a safest approach as I vaguely remember I experienced 
>> a few issue using @import with CSS compression and CSS file merging script. 
>> Script that brings CSS3 selectors for IE such as selectivizr also cannot 
>> handle @import properly - I only tried it once and two style sheets are 
>> using @import but are placed inside a main style sheet.
>> 
>> tee
>> 
>> On Dec 18, 2010, at 6:15 AM, G.Sørtun wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>>>> I am finally to begin to stop supporting IE6 starts from 2011 as the usage 
>>>> has fallen below 5%. I don't want the IE6 users to see a broken page due 
>>>> to no special treatment made for the browser, rather, I would like them to 
>>>> see an un-styled page as if the style sheet has switch off.
>>>> 
>>>> Can this be done?
>>> 
>>> Of course... :-)
>>> 
>>> How to & demo here:
>>> <http://www.gunlaug.no/contents/wd_additions_50.html>
>>> 
>>> It is up to you how "unstyled" IE6 shall present a page. I would give it 
>>> "some".
>>> 
>>> regards
>>>  Georg
>> 
>> 
>> 
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Re: [WSG] Re: WSG Digest (was "disallow IE6...")

[David Hucklesby]

On 12/20/10 6:57 AM, Thierry Koblentz wrote:

Using IE conditional comments on the html tag, you can target each
version

of IE.

You can does not mean you should...

In a comment [1] on "forabeautifulweb", Molly Holzschlag says:

"Please, please don’t design for browsers."



[1]
http://forabeautifulweb.com/blog/about/universal_internet_explorer_6_css/#r7



Perhaps expectations are too high? I took my first Web class in 2002,
and learned both table-based and CSS layouts using IE 5.5 and Netscape
4. CSS rendering in IE was good enough then to convince me that CSS
layouts are preferable. And, no, my pages did not look the same in both
browsers. But similar, and equally usable, was good enough for me
then... and now.

Thanks to all for adding useful tools to my toolbox. Season's greetings!

Cordially,
David
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[WSG] Re: WSG Digest

[David Linden]

I have an appointment this morning but will be back in the office by 12.30.

If your matter is urgent please contact Sam Lawry, (03) 269 0279.

Regards

David Linden

This e-mail and any attachments are confidential, and may contain legally 
privileged
information.

They are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is
addressed and must not be copied, forwarded or disclosed to anyone without the
sender's consent.

If you are not the intended recipient, any use, dissemination, forwarding, 
printing,
or copying of this e-mail and any attachments is strictly prohibited.

If you have received this e-mail in error, please advise via reply e-mail to the
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Re: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet

[David McKinnon]

Sounds like you're going to a lot of effort to make the IE6 experince worse 
than it needs to be.
Is this *dis*graceful degradation? ;)

David

On 20/12/2010, at 1:18 AM, tee  wrote:

> Thanks. I need to look into it and run a few tests.
> 
> I think it may not be a safest approach as I vaguely remember I experienced a 
> few issue using @import with CSS compression and CSS file merging script. 
> Script that brings CSS3 selectors for IE such as selectivizr also cannot 
> handle @import properly - I only tried it once and two style sheets are using 
> @import but are placed inside a main style sheet.
> 
> tee
> 
> On Dec 18, 2010, at 6:15 AM, G.Sørtun wrote:
> 
>> 
>>> I am finally to begin to stop supporting IE6 starts from 2011 as the usage 
>>> has fallen below 5%. I don't want the IE6 users to see a broken page due to 
>>> no special treatment made for the browser, rather, I would like them to see 
>>> an un-styled page as if the style sheet has switch off.
>>> 
>>> Can this be done?
>> 
>> Of course... :-)
>> 
>> How to & demo here:
>> <http://www.gunlaug.no/contents/wd_additions_50.html>
>> 
>> It is up to you how "unstyled" IE6 shall present a page. I would give it 
>> "some".
>> 
>> regards
>>   Georg
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet

[David Laakso]

On 12/18/10 6:20 AM, tee wrote:

I am finally to begin to stop supporting IE6 starts from 2011 as the usage has 
fallen below 5%. I don't want the IE6 users to see a broken page due to no 
special treatment made for the browser, rather, I would like them to see an 
un-styled page as if the style sheet has switch off.

Can this be done?

Thanks!

tee






A somewhat less dramatic alternative is to feed IE/6.0 styles in much 
the same manner as one might handle mobile. Somewhat crude at the 
moment, but fwiw see my signature link in IE/6.

Best,
~d

--
http://chelseacreekstudio.com/



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Re: [WSG] Document Formats

[David Hucklesby]

On 11/30/10 11:52 AM, Erickson, Kevin (DOE) wrote:

Hi All, The website I work with receives a lot of documents to be
posted that come in the form of Word, PowerPoint and Excel documents.
And now, with the release of the latest versions of Ms Office, they
are coming to me with an "X" on their extensions. I have information
in the footer of all the web pages for access to free viewers for all
documents including these latest extensions. This may be an adequate
CYA but I am not convinced it is the best practice. I know this must
be confusing for some of our visitors. I would like to ask any of you
if you have had to deal with multiple document formats and how you
handled this for the best user accessibility. I am thinking the best
practice is to have, first, a browser/HTML version, second, a PDF
version, and after that whatever version the document was created as,
i.e. Ms Word, PowerPoint, etc.

[...]

I'd opt for just the HTML version. After all, HTML was created to solve
precisely this problem--people trying to communicate using incompatible
software...

Of course, the conversion may not be easy. :\

Cordially,
David
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Re: [WSG] Site for Vision Impaired

[David Laakso]

On 11/26/10 6:25 PM, Daniel Anderson wrote:


What are the considerations I need to take into account with a project 
like this? eg ability to change contrast, text size etc? Are there any 
good resources or advice you could share with me?





With regard, to typography the consideration is the same as it is for 
any user. Set the fonts throughout at user default. And ensure the site 
will hold when scaled at twice user default.


Best,
~d



--
:: desktop and mobile ::
http://chelseacreekstudio.com/



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Re: [WSG] advice on background images?

[David Storey]

 
On 26 Nov 2010, at 22:32, cat soul wrote:

> Any tips on how to minimize or eliminate how obvious it is where the "tiles" 
> meet when you have the background image repeat?

Use a better background-image? I’m not sure what you mean? bg images repeat if 
you tell it to do. You either have an image designed to repeat or you don' (or 
you have a vector image via SVG that scales instead).
> 
> 
> thanks
> 
> cs
> 
> 
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-- 
David Storey

Chief Web Opener / Product Manager, Opera Dragonfly
W3C WG:  Mobile Web Best Practices / SVG Interest Group 

Opera Software ASA, Oslo, Norway
Mobile: +47 94 22 02 32 / E-Mail/XMPP: dsto...@opera.com / Twitter: dstorey



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Re: [WSG] Fixed-position menus?

[David Laakso]

On 11/24/10 7:06 PM, Thierry wrote:

Thanks, Thierry; Could you expound a bit on what evil these CSS expressions
might bring on?

Are we talkin' red guys with horns, tails and pitchforks?

Worse than that!
Check this:
http://developer.yahoo.com/blogs/ydn/posts/2007/07/high_performanc_6/

--
Regards,




What say we lighten-up just a bit?

Best,
~d
PS
Happy Thanksgiving!


--

http://chelseacreekstudio.com/



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Re: [WSG] Fixed-position menus?

[David Dorward]

 
On 23 Nov 2010, at 21:05, cat soul wrote:

> Here is a link illustrating what I mean:
> http://thinkplan.org/menupersist.jpg
> 
> What are peoples' thoughts on this kind of menu?

It eats valuable vertical screen real estate (very important in these days of 
widescreen netbook computers) and breaks linking to fragment identifiers in the 
document (#foo -> ).

If the user wants to get back to the menu, it is not a great hardship to scroll 
back up or hit the home key.

-- 
David Dorward
http://dorward.me.uk



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Re: [WSG] disable user scale for iPhone only, not iPad

[David Laakso]

On 11/18/10 8:55 PM, tee wrote:





With the size of iPad, having zoom feature seems a more sensible approach 
however the meta tag disables the zooming in iPad too.


I'd been searching the web and trying different combinations  but couldn't find 
anything that would work.

tee





Dunno. No iPad hereabout. Longshot. Try ?



Best,
~d


--
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