Re: RE: [WSG] Mobile phone support of CSS
Sorry, haven't been around for a few days. Thanks for the replies everyone. Much appreciated and I can now talk about mobile development with more confidence! Cheers 2008/6/25 Darren Lovelock [EMAIL PROTECTED]: -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael MD Sent: 25 June 2008 11:10 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: RE: [WSG] Mobile phone support of CSS I agree, this is not web standards. However remember they could be following web standards with their CSS version. and I don't think it is just in the UK, it is every where for Vodafone. Which not only defies any effort you made to put the thing together for presentation standards as well. I think it is their solution to controlling the user experience on handset side of things when someone accesses mobile web. Why don't they let the community sought it out? It seems now that if standards are to be effective in the mobile access space, there is now another hump to get an open standard. are they doing this for all sites on all types of phones or only changing it if the phone's browser can't handle the original format/doctype/css/etc The latter is nothing new... Google has been doing it for years for pages linked from mobile search results allowing even ancient phones to browse pages they would not otherwise be able to look at. (ie making them accessible!) -- I believe that they are changing all types of phones. I have a sony ericcson k800i and it modifies the pages on that unless I go in the vodafone account settings and switch it off. It works fine without it! The Novarra proxy is over-riding the handheld stylesheet when I visit my website. This is because my site will deliver the standard stylesheet as it detects Novarra's user agent and not my mobile's. So it affects any site regardless if they are already mobile friendly! Darren Lovelock Munky Online Web Design http://www.munkyonline.co.uk T: +44 (0)20-8816-8893 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: RE: [WSG] Mobile phone support of CSS
I agree, this is not web standards. However remember they could be following web standards with their CSS version. and I don't think it is just in the UK, it is every where for Vodafone. Which not only defies any effort you made to put the thing together for presentation standards as well. I think it is their solution to controlling the user experience on handset side of things when someone accesses mobile web. Why don't they let the community sought it out? It seems now that if standards are to be effective in the mobile access space, there is now another hump to get an open standard. are they doing this for all sites on all types of phones or only changing it if the phone's browser can't handle the original format/doctype/css/etc The latter is nothing new... Google has been doing it for years for pages linked from mobile search results allowing even ancient phones to browse pages they would not otherwise be able to look at. (ie making them accessible!) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Mobile phone support of CSS
Michael, My understanding is that they have different styles targeted for the different handsets and that is the other justification for carrying out such an exercise. William Michael MD wrote: I agree, this is not web standards. However remember they could be following web standards with their CSS version. and I don't think it is just in the UK, it is every where for Vodafone. Which not only defies any effort you made to put the thing together for presentation standards as well. I think it is their solution to controlling the user experience on handset side of things when someone accesses mobile web. Why don't they let the community sought it out? It seems now that if standards are to be effective in the mobile access space, there is now another hump to get an open standard. are they doing this for all sites on all types of phones or only changing it if the phone's browser can't handle the original format/doctype/css/etc The latter is nothing new... Google has been doing it for years for pages linked from mobile search results allowing even ancient phones to browse pages they would not otherwise be able to look at. (ie making them accessible!) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: RE: [WSG] Mobile phone support of CSS
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael MD Sent: 25 June 2008 11:10 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: RE: [WSG] Mobile phone support of CSS I agree, this is not web standards. However remember they could be following web standards with their CSS version. and I don't think it is just in the UK, it is every where for Vodafone. Which not only defies any effort you made to put the thing together for presentation standards as well. I think it is their solution to controlling the user experience on handset side of things when someone accesses mobile web. Why don't they let the community sought it out? It seems now that if standards are to be effective in the mobile access space, there is now another hump to get an open standard. are they doing this for all sites on all types of phones or only changing it if the phone's browser can't handle the original format/doctype/css/etc The latter is nothing new... Google has been doing it for years for pages linked from mobile search results allowing even ancient phones to browse pages they would not otherwise be able to look at. (ie making them accessible!) -- I believe that they are changing all types of phones. I have a sony ericcson k800i and it modifies the pages on that unless I go in the vodafone account settings and switch it off. It works fine without it! The Novarra proxy is over-riding the handheld stylesheet when I visit my website. This is because my site will deliver the standard stylesheet as it detects Novarra's user agent and not my mobile's. So it affects any site regardless if they are already mobile friendly! Darren Lovelock Munky Online Web Design http://www.munkyonline.co.uk T: +44 (0)20-8816-8893 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Mobile phone support of CSS
Hi all, I'm trying to find a comprehensive list of Mobile phone browsers and CSS support. I currently have a Nokia N70 and as far as I can see it doesn't support CSS at all. But, perhaps with a stylesheet targeting mobile phones it would?! The main reason is, I am trying to decide whether putting the main logo of a site in as an inline image is better than a background, as it would still show up with CSS not supported. But then, how many mobile browsers still don't support CSS whatsoever?! Any advice or links would be great. Cheers Paul *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Mobile phone support of CSS
Paul, Check out these great resources: - http://dev.mobi/ - http://mobilewebbook.com - http://www.w3.org/mobile/ And for testing you can use http://deviceanywhere.com which provides remote access to actual handsets (not emulators). Good Luck. Stew 2008/6/24 Paul Collins [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hi all, I'm trying to find a comprehensive list of Mobile phone browsers and CSS support. I currently have a Nokia N70 and as far as I can see it doesn't support CSS at all. But, perhaps with a stylesheet targeting mobile phones it would?! The main reason is, I am trying to decide whether putting the main logo of a site in as an inline image is better than a background, as it would still show up with CSS not supported. But then, how many mobile browsers still don't support CSS whatsoever?! Any advice or links would be great. Cheers Paul *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Mobile phone support of CSS
Paul Collins wrote: Hi all, I'm trying to find a comprehensive list of Mobile phone browsers and CSS support. I currently have a Nokia N70 and as far as I can see it doesn't support CSS at all. But, perhaps with a stylesheet targeting mobile phones it would?! The main reason is, I am trying to decide whether putting the main logo of a site in as an inline image is better than a background, as it would still show up with CSS not supported. But then, how many mobile browsers still don't support CSS whatsoever?! In addition if you are trying to locate which mobile browser from which mobile vendor is coming along, this universal XML File called WURFL might help alot. It contains information about the capabilities and features of many mobile devices and more. http://wurfl.sourceforge.net/ regards, Jens *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Mobile phone support of CSS
Thanks for your replies everyone, those are good resources. 2008/6/24 Jens Nedal [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Paul Collins wrote: Hi all, I'm trying to find a comprehensive list of Mobile phone browsers and CSS support. I currently have a Nokia N70 and as far as I can see it doesn't support CSS at all. But, perhaps with a stylesheet targeting mobile phones it would?! The main reason is, I am trying to decide whether putting the main logo of a site in as an inline image is better than a background, as it would still show up with CSS not supported. But then, how many mobile browsers still don't support CSS whatsoever?! In addition if you are trying to locate which mobile browser from which mobile vendor is coming along, this universal XML File called WURFL might help alot. It contains information about the capabilities and features of many mobile devices and more. http://wurfl.sourceforge.net/ regards, Jens *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Mobile phone support of CSS
Hi Paul, There are fifteen articles here on designing, etc. for Opera Mobile and Opera Mini. http://dev.opera.com/articles/mobile/ Hope this may be of help. Kind regards, Frank Palinkas Opera Software On 6/24/08, Paul Collins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, I'm trying to find a comprehensive list of Mobile phone browsers and CSS support. I currently have a Nokia N70 and as far as I can see it doesn't support CSS at all. But, perhaps with a stylesheet targeting mobile phones it would?! The main reason is, I am trying to decide whether putting the main logo of a site in as an inline image is better than a background, as it would still show up with CSS not supported. But then, how many mobile browsers still don't support CSS whatsoever?! Any advice or links would be great. Cheers Paul *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Mobile phone support of CSS
I just read the article about Vodafone UK and their manipulation of the user-agent header http://wurfl.sourceforge.net/vodafonerant/index.htm I don't know if this is old news to you guys but Vodafone is passing mobile internet connections through proxy software called Novarra. Novarra is supposed to re-render the page as 'mobile friendly'. Because it is using the proxy server your handheld CSS file is ignored and a poor version of the site is delivered to the mobile user instead. This also affects websites that have specific content or downloads based on the user agent, say for example MP3's or images with different sizes that are provided for multiple mobile devices due to their differences in compatibility. These sites wont be able to detect the correct user agent as they will be working with the proxy and not the mobile device. Not only that but it also means that SSL connections are not secure through it either! Surely this is heavily against web standards? Darren Lovelock Munky Online Web Design http://www.munkyonline.co.uk T: +44 (0)20-8816-8893 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jens Nedal Sent: 24 June 2008 11:07 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Mobile phone support of CSS Paul Collins wrote: Hi all, I'm trying to find a comprehensive list of Mobile phone browsers and CSS support. I currently have a Nokia N70 and as far as I can see it doesn't support CSS at all. But, perhaps with a stylesheet targeting mobile phones it would?! The main reason is, I am trying to decide whether putting the main logo of a site in as an inline image is better than a background, as it would still show up with CSS not supported. But then, how many mobile browsers still don't support CSS whatsoever?! In addition if you are trying to locate which mobile browser from which mobile vendor is coming along, this universal XML File called WURFL might help alot. It contains information about the capabilities and features of many mobile devices and more. http://wurfl.sourceforge.net/ regards, Jens *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Mobile phone support of CSS
Paul Collins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, I'm trying to find a comprehensive list of Mobile phone browsers and CSS support. I currently have a Nokia N70 and as far as I can see it doesn't support CSS at all. But, perhaps with a stylesheet targeting mobile phones it would?! Hi Paul I include some information -- accompanied by links -- relating to small screen rendering (PDAs, Cell Phones, erc.) on my http://jp29.org/wpointerop.htm page. James -- http://jp29.org/ Semantic Web Authoring Validated: HTML/XHTML/XHTML+RDFa ~ CSS ~ RDF/XML - DC Metadata/RSS Feed *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: RE: [WSG] Mobile phone support of CSS
I agree, this is not web standards. However remember they could be following web standards with their CSS version. and I don't think it is just in the UK, it is every where for Vodafone. Which not only defies any effort you made to put the thing together for presentation standards as well. I think it is their solution to controlling the user experience on handset side of things when someone accesses mobile web. Why don't they let the community sought it out? It seems now that if standards are to be effective in the mobile access space, there is now another hump to get an open standard. William Darren Lovelock [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I just read the article about Vodafone UK and their manipulation of the user-agent header http://wurfl.sourceforge.net/vodafonerant/index.htm I don't know if this is old news to you guys but Vodafone is passing mobile internet connections through proxy software called Novarra. Novarra is supposed to re-render the page as 'mobile friendly'. Because it is using the proxy server your handheld CSS file is ignored and a poor version of the site is delivered to the mobile user instead. This also affects websites that have specific content or downloads based on the user agent, say for example MP3's or images with different sizes that are provided for multiple mobile devices due to their differences in compatibility. These sites wont be able to detect the correct user agent as they will be working with the proxy and not the mobile device. Not only that but it also means that SSL connections are not secure through it either! Surely this is heavily against web standards? Darren Lovelock Munky Online Web Design http://www.munkyonline.co.uk T: +44 (0)20-8816-8893 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jens Nedal Sent: 24 June 2008 11:07 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Mobile phone support of CSS Paul Collins wrote: Hi all, I'm trying to find a comprehensive list of Mobile phone browsers and CSS support. I currently have a Nokia N70 and as far as I can see it doesn't support CSS at all. But, perhaps with a stylesheet targeting mobile phones it would?! The main reason is, I am trying to decide whether putting the main logo of a site in as an inline image is better than a background, as it would still show up with CSS not supported. But then, how many mobile browsers still don't support CSS whatsoever?! In addition if you are trying to locate which mobile browser from which mobile vendor is coming along, this universal XML File called WURFL might help alot. It contains information about the capabilities and features of many mobile devices and more. http://wurfl.sourceforge.net/ regards, Jens *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Mobile phone support of CSS
Hello Sir I have just seen your mail today,it made me know a new thing regarding the topic Paul started. Thanks Regards Priya On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 4:04 AM, Darren Lovelock [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I just read the article about Vodafone UK and their manipulation of the user-agent header http://wurfl.sourceforge.net/vodafonerant/index.htm I don't know if this is old news to you guys but Vodafone is passing mobile internet connections through proxy software called Novarra. Novarra is supposed to re-render the page as 'mobile friendly'. Because it is using the proxy server your handheld CSS file is ignored and a poor version of the site is delivered to the mobile user instead. This also affects websites that have specific content or downloads based on the user agent, say for example MP3's or images with different sizes that are provided for multiple mobile devices due to their differences in compatibility. These sites wont be able to detect the correct user agent as they will be working with the proxy and not the mobile device. Not only that but it also means that SSL connections are not secure through it either! Surely this is heavily against web standards? Darren Lovelock Munky Online Web Design http://www.munkyonline.co.uk T: +44 (0)20-8816-8893 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jens Nedal Sent: 24 June 2008 11:07 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Mobile phone support of CSS Paul Collins wrote: Hi all, I'm trying to find a comprehensive list of Mobile phone browsers and CSS support. I currently have a Nokia N70 and as far as I can see it doesn't support CSS at all. But, perhaps with a stylesheet targeting mobile phones it would?! The main reason is, I am trying to decide whether putting the main logo of a site in as an inline image is better than a background, as it would still show up with CSS not supported. But then, how many mobile browsers still don't support CSS whatsoever?! In addition if you are trying to locate which mobile browser from which mobile vendor is coming along, this universal XML File called WURFL might help alot. It contains information about the capabilities and features of many mobile devices and more. http://wurfl.sourceforge.net/ regards, Jens *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
