Re: [WSG] Visual Design Of Websites
On Jul 13, 2007, at 1:57 AM, Nick Cowie wrote: I think that everybody has missed the original point of Marvin's post. Marvin was looking for help in completing his visual design units in his web design course, as Marvin is visually impaired and is trying to build websites for sighted people using a screen reader. And you thought is was hard the other way round. I assume Marvin must pass the visual design units to complete the course. Do not pass the course and no qualification, no chance of further education and less chance of a job in the field he wants. Marvin is after advice, help, tips, tricks and techniques for visual design, such as colour theory, image size etc. as well as suggestions on how to storyboards and flowcharts. Nick, I wanted to thank you for reminding us on Marvin's need. I understood what he was looking from his post but didn't have idea on what to recommend/suggest, and from some of his posts in the past, I got an impression that he seems particularly interested in developing sites for visually impaired people but never bother to find out why ( probably because this is web standards list and I learned it's impolite to ask person question). Ironic isn't it, here in the WSG we hear list members talk about developing accessible sites for people with difficulties, and often times with big theory, idea with their owned ideology, yet we shamefully make an genuine quest from a list member who is visually impaired, turned to a 'thread closed'. Best, tee *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Visual Design Of Websites - ADMIN - very close to closing thread!
i m sorry,lll be right back 2007/7/12, russ - maxdesign [EMAIL PROTECTED]: OK, this is not pointed at any one person... Lets get this thread back on topic and into more helpful, positive dialog - NOW! Otherwise the thread will be closed and you will all have to go to your rooms without supper! Russ (with wooden spoon!) If people are as severly misguided as you believe, and your opinion is this controversial, you owe it to yourself (let alone us) to elaborate on why this is the case. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Visual Design Of Websites - ADMIN - very close to closing thread!
tomorrow see you !!bye solange 2007/7/13, Maria Solange Siebra Borges [EMAIL PROTECTED] : i m sorry,lll be right back 2007/7/12, russ - maxdesign [EMAIL PROTECTED]: OK, this is not pointed at any one person... Lets get this thread back on topic and into more helpful, positive dialog - NOW! Otherwise the thread will be closed and you will all have to go to your rooms without supper! Russ (with wooden spoon!) If people are as severly misguided as you believe, and your opinion is this controversial, you owe it to yourself (let alone us) to elaborate on why this is the case. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Visual Design Of Websites - THREAD CLOSED
tomorrow see later !!bye solange 2007/7/12, russ - maxdesign [EMAIL PROTECTED]: THIS THREAD IS CLOSED This is the second reply to a closed thread. No more! The list guidelines state: The list administrators (and Core members) reserve the right to unsubscribe any member from the mail list(s)... Reasons include: - Repeatedly replying to threads that have been closed Thanks Russ on 13/7/07 12:51 AM, Bruce at wrote: ...As long as you have an endless appetite for learning more and more all over the board, before you know it you'll be pretty far along with your knowledge There really is no end to it, daily I am updating my skills and seem always to reach out and make that latest script I just mastered do even more. The only problem I have with this as a one man shop is that I spend more time learning than working on clients sites. Alas, I have not yet made my million...one more skill needed...ten to ignore - have no time...so I learn priorities...foundations. Web Standards. Content Management. Then the programming skills. After four or five years doing this full time and five part time, being from a construction background I speak of foundations a lot. Standards are that foundation. Bruce P bkdesign *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Visual Design Of Websites
tomorrow see you!!bye solange 2007/7/12, Bruce [EMAIL PROTECTED]: ...As long as you have an endless appetite for learning more and more all over the board, before you know it you'll be pretty far along with your knowledge There really is no end to it, daily I am updating my skills and seem always to reach out and make that latest script I just mastered do even more. The only problem I have with this as a one man shop is that I spend more time learning than working on clients sites. Alas, I have not yet made my million...one more skill needed...ten to ignore - have no time...so I learn priorities...foundations. Web Standards. Content Management. Then the programming skills. After four or five years doing this full time and five part time, being from a construction background I speak of foundations a lot. Standards are that foundation. Bruce P bkdesign - Original Message - From: Joseph Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 2:11 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] Visual Design Of Websites If you are interested in being and all-rounder, don't let anyone scare you away from it. I'm an all-rounder (designer/developer I would call it), a one-man company. On my sites I do all the planning, information layout, designing and coding - everything. (X)HTML, CSS, javascript, PHP, MySQL on every site and before that ASP and MSSQL (until 2006). The design process starts with pencil and paper. After bot 3-4 sheets of scribbles and squares zooming to and fro all over the paper, I have a worthy layout done. Then a wireframe is made in photoshop. Then the design is made. Then it gets chopped and pages marked up. Then the database gets built. Then the PHP is coded to stitch the front and back together. If time is left over some javascript is sprinkled in to taste. I hope that each site combines all the elements a little more smoothly than last time creating a continued progression as I go. As long as you have an endless appetite for learning more and more all over the board, before you know it you'll be pretty far along with your knowledge. Joseph R. B. Taylor Sites by Joe, LLC http://sitesbyjoe.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] Breton Slivka wrote: On 7/12/07, *Hassan Schroeder* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: , you are wrong about graphic design. ..but seriously, I have *never* seen an ad for a Graphic Designer (or worse, mislabeled Web Designer) that looked for anything but Photoshop/Illustrator, possibly Flash, proficiency. Nothing about BA/IA/UX/ID. Zip. Zed. For the vast majority of such positions, it's all about purty. :-) Seriously. I do know exceptions -- Darrell Sano, who I worked with at Sun, comes to mind -- but they're few and far between. Far too far. That is an error in the Ads you've seen, and in the Advertiser's understanding of Graphic Design being just as flawed as yours. This is not an error in my definition of Graphic Design. I will not dispute that many self proclaimed Graphic Designers hold the same flawed view. This is a serious problem, which may be too big for me to singlehandedly handle, but a problem nonethless. To give an analogy, one could easily advertise for an accountant who is proficient in the use of Quicken and TurboTax. However this would be a flawed advertisement, as proficiency in those programs does not a qualified accountant make. Nor does proficiency in photoshop make a qualified Graphic Designer, nor would proficiency in Dreamweaver make a qualified Web Developer, nor Proficiency in MySQL a qualified Database Designer. Indeed, a common view of Surgeons may be that all they do is cut people up and shift things around, discounting any knowledge they may have of human anatomy, or medical science. Now imagine if there were a bunch of surgeons running around getting hired who had the same flawed perspective. It would be very difficult for a proper surgeon to gain any sense of credibility wouldn't it? That problem is real in both Web Development, and Graphic Design. Given that it's something both fields have in common, I would expect us to be able to team up to fight such perceptions, but sadly this is not the case for practitioners in either profession, as they each suffer from the misperceptions of the other. It makes me sad. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED
Re: [WSG] Visual Design Of Websites - dont close it yet admin!
tomorrow see you later!!bye!solange 2007/7/12, Bruce Kyle [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Graphic Design vs Web Design - the keyword here is design, both processes use the principles of design to solve a problem. We all use repetition, balance, emphasis to create a product suitable to our clients/overlords/users. let's not get hung up on the media. There's no doubt in my mind a part of any good website are the graphical/textual elements, but a successful solution must include a whole host of other disciplines (useability, accessibility etc). From my experience a typical web project involves taking an existing organisation into the wierd wide web. They already have a fancy logo, colour scheme, marketing strategy. The hard work is integrating it into a relevant web structure so everyone from grandma with her win98/IE4 to young johnny on his playstation 3 browser can use it to find whatever they wanted to find when they googled the org's keywords. Bruce (broken a few wooden spoons in my time!) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Visual Design Of Websites
I think that everybody has missed the original point of Marvin's post. Marvin was looking for help in completing his visual design units in his web design course, as Marvin is visually impaired and is trying to build websites for sighted people using a screen reader. And you thought is was hard the other way round. I assume Marvin must pass the visual design units to complete the course. Do not pass the course and no qualification, no chance of further education and less chance of a job in the field he wants. Marvin is after advice, help, tips, tricks and techniques for visual design, such as colour theory, image size etc. as well as suggestions on how to storyboards and flowcharts. I don't have a lot of links at hand but I will have a look over the weekend for you Marvin. I hope a few others can go through there del.icio.us accounts and similar and find a few links for Marvin before next semester. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Visual Design Of Websites
If you are interested in being and all-rounder, don't let anyone scare you away from it. I'm an all-rounder (designer/developer I would call it), a one-man company. On my sites I do all the planning, information layout, designing and coding - everything. (X)HTML, CSS, javascript, PHP, MySQL on every site and before that ASP and MSSQL (until 2006). The design process starts with pencil and paper. After bot 3-4 sheets of scribbles and squares zooming to and fro all over the paper, I have a worthy layout done. Then a wireframe is made in photoshop. Then the design is made. Then it gets chopped and pages marked up. Then the database gets built. Then the PHP is coded to stitch the front and back together. If time is left over some javascript is sprinkled in to taste. I hope that each site combines all the elements a little more smoothly than last time creating a continued progression as I go. As long as you have an endless appetite for learning more and more all over the board, before you know it you'll be pretty far along with your knowledge. Joseph R. B. Taylor Sites by Joe, LLC http://sitesbyjoe.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] Breton Slivka wrote: On 7/12/07, *Hassan Schroeder* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: , you are wrong about graphic design. ..but seriously, I have *never* seen an ad for a Graphic Designer (or worse, mislabeled Web Designer) that looked for anything but Photoshop/Illustrator, possibly Flash, proficiency. Nothing about BA/IA/UX/ID. Zip. Zed. For the vast majority of such positions, it's all about purty. :-) Seriously. I do know exceptions -- Darrell Sano, who I worked with at Sun, comes to mind -- but they're few and far between. Far too far. That is an error in the Ads you've seen, and in the Advertiser's understanding of Graphic Design being just as flawed as yours. This is not an error in my definition of Graphic Design. I will not dispute that many self proclaimed Graphic Designers hold the same flawed view. This is a serious problem, which may be too big for me to singlehandedly handle, but a problem nonethless. To give an analogy, one could easily advertise for an accountant who is proficient in the use of Quicken and TurboTax. However this would be a flawed advertisement, as proficiency in those programs does not a qualified accountant make. Nor does proficiency in photoshop make a qualified Graphic Designer, nor would proficiency in Dreamweaver make a qualified Web Developer, nor Proficiency in MySQL a qualified Database Designer. Indeed, a common view of Surgeons may be that all they do is cut people up and shift things around, discounting any knowledge they may have of human anatomy, or medical science. Now imagine if there were a bunch of surgeons running around getting hired who had the same flawed perspective. It would be very difficult for a proper surgeon to gain any sense of credibility wouldn't it? That problem is real in both Web Development, and Graphic Design. Given that it's something both fields have in common, I would expect us to be able to team up to fight such perceptions, but sadly this is not the case for practitioners in either profession, as they each suffer from the misperceptions of the other. It makes me sad. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***begin:vcard fn:Joseph Taylor n:Taylor;Joseph org:Sites by Joe, LLC adr:;;408 Route 47 South;Cape May Court House;NJ;08210;USA email;internet:[EMAIL PROTECTED] title:Web Designer / Developer tel;work:609-335-3076 tel;cell:609-335-3076 x-mozilla-html:TRUE url:http://sitesbyjoe.com version:2.1 end:vcard
Re: [WSG] Visual Design Of Websites
Yes, but that's still graphic design of the appearance of Websites, NOT Website Design. It's not designing the dynamic structure, usability and accessibility (using Web standards) essential for good Website design which will hold across different platforms/browsers in which the user has control (not the graphic designer). And no, the visual design should not be the first thing to consider in meeting a client's requirements. Too many bad Websites have been produced in which graphic designers who have pretended to be Website designers and placed the visual design first and insist that this is paramount. On Thu, July 12, 2007 12:48 am, Breton Slivka wrote: Argghh no! the ignorance! Just stop going about thinking you know what you're talking about when it comes to Graphic Design! Graphic Design isn't Make it Purdy, Graphic design isn't Learn how to use photoshop. It's exactly that perception that leads to awful website after awful website. Certainly, aesthetic beauty is a *side effect* of the design process, but *do not* make the mistake of thinking that's what graphic design is. Graphic design for print design has four aspects: Client Needs Audience Expectations Process (Identifying the problem space, going through many iterations, selecting the best solutions, and iterative refinement. This involves a A knowledge of the principles of good typography, and the principles of good visual design of course, but it is not pure visual design) Craftsmanship The graphic design process on the web is no different. A Good graphic designer (one who is familiar with what graphic design actually is, rather than the ignorant stereotype you just displayed) Should be involved in the process as EARLY and as OFTEN as possible. Not in the last step as you suggest. *Most* of this Graphic Designer's time should be spent with pencils and paper, and not in Photoshop or Illustrator. A great deal of time evaluating the problem at hand, and iteratively simplifying the solution. This is graphic design. If this is not what you've found in graphic designers in the past, then you have accidentally hired a Stylist, or possibly an Illustrator, not a graphic designer. Please do not slander my profession in the future. And P.S. this is a little tongue in cheek, so don't take too much offense. But seriously, you are wrong about graphic design. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Visual Design Of Websites
yes I agree. Graphic design and Web (Graphic) design are different, similar concepts but different. what works on print does not always work on web [EMAIL PROTECTED] 12/07/2007 2:48:57 pm Yes, but that's still graphic design of the appearance of Websites, NOT Website Design. It's not designing the dynamic structure, usability and accessibility (using Web standards) essential for good Website design which will hold across different platforms/browsers in which the user has control (not the graphic designer). And no, the visual design should not be the first thing to consider in meeting a client's requirements. Too many bad Websites have been produced in which graphic designers who have pretended to be Website designers and placed the visual design first and insist that this is paramount. On Thu, July 12, 2007 12:48 am, Breton Slivka wrote: Argghh no! the ignorance! Just stop going about thinking you know what you're talking about when it comes to Graphic Design! Graphic Design isn't Make it Purdy, Graphic design isn't Learn how to use photoshop. It's exactly that perception that leads to awful website after awful website. Certainly, aesthetic beauty is a *side effect* of the design process, but *do not* make the mistake of thinking that's what graphic design is. Graphic design for print design has four aspects: Client Needs Audience Expectations Process (Identifying the problem space, going through many iterations, selecting the best solutions, and iterative refinement. This involves a A knowledge of the principles of good typography, and the principles of good visual design of course, but it is not pure visual design) Craftsmanship The graphic design process on the web is no different. A Good graphic designer (one who is familiar with what graphic design actually is, rather than the ignorant stereotype you just displayed) Should be involved in the process as EARLY and as OFTEN as possible. Not in the last step as you suggest. *Most* of this Graphic Designer's time should be spent with pencils and paper, and not in Photoshop or Illustrator. A great deal of time evaluating the problem at hand, and iteratively simplifying the solution. This is graphic design. If this is not what you've found in graphic designers in the past, then you have accidentally hired a Stylist, or possibly an Illustrator, not a graphic designer. Please do not slander my profession in the future. And P.S. this is a little tongue in cheek, so don't take too much offense. But seriously, you are wrong about graphic design. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** ** The above message has been scanned and meets the Insurance Commission of Western Australia's Email security requirements for inbound transmission. ** The above message has been scanned and meets the Insurance Commission of Western Australia's Email security policy requirements for outbound transmission. This email (facsimile) and any attachments may be confidential and privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this email (facsimile) is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email (facsimile) in error please contact the Insurance Commission. Web: www.icwa.wa.gov.au Phone: +61 08 9264 * *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Visual Design Of Websites
All Rounders are good, im one myself aswell, but dont expect to jump in and become good at everything, thats what im saying. And also, being an All Rounder is not a good thing sometime's, the main reason being that jobs wont be completed as quick as a team of developers could do it, ive lost a few clients due to this. I found it better for myself (lower stress levels ect.) to get a job in one area, and in spare time, or personal jobs do/learn the rest of it. Im currently a front-end developer, but it helps me alot to know back-end. Money wise, if you work for a company an all rounder wont be on that much pay extra, and usually the stress load is alot higher. Ive seen jobs for back-end developers at 22k a year, and jobs for front-end (HTML/CSS/JS only) for 28k a year. (UK Pounds). But even so, over the years, you will pick up all these languages if your intrests are strong in web development, and you will become an all rounder naturally. :P On 7/12/07, Joseph Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If you are interested in being and all-rounder, don't let anyone scare you away from it. I'm an all-rounder (designer/developer I would call it), a one-man company. On my sites I do all the planning, information layout, designing and coding - everything. (X)HTML, CSS, javascript, PHP, MySQL on every site and before that ASP and MSSQL (until 2006). The design process starts with pencil and paper. After bot 3-4 sheets of scribbles and squares zooming to and fro all over the paper, I have a worthy layout done. Then a wireframe is made in photoshop. Then the design is made. Then it gets chopped and pages marked up. Then the database gets built. Then the PHP is coded to stitch the front and back together. If time is left over some javascript is sprinkled in to taste. I hope that each site combines all the elements a little more smoothly than last time creating a continued progression as I go. As long as you have an endless appetite for learning more and more all over the board, before you know it you'll be pretty far along with your knowledge. Joseph R. B. Taylor Sites by Joe, LLC http://sitesbyjoe.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] Breton Slivka wrote: On 7/12/07, *Hassan Schroeder* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: , you are wrong about graphic design. ..but seriously, I have *never* seen an ad for a Graphic Designer (or worse, mislabeled Web Designer) that looked for anything but Photoshop/Illustrator, possibly Flash, proficiency. Nothing about BA/IA/UX/ID. Zip. Zed. For the vast majority of such positions, it's all about purty. :-) Seriously. I do know exceptions -- Darrell Sano, who I worked with at Sun, comes to mind -- but they're few and far between. Far too far. That is an error in the Ads you've seen, and in the Advertiser's understanding of Graphic Design being just as flawed as yours. This is not an error in my definition of Graphic Design. I will not dispute that many self proclaimed Graphic Designers hold the same flawed view. This is a serious problem, which may be too big for me to singlehandedly handle, but a problem nonethless. To give an analogy, one could easily advertise for an accountant who is proficient in the use of Quicken and TurboTax. However this would be a flawed advertisement, as proficiency in those programs does not a qualified accountant make. Nor does proficiency in photoshop make a qualified Graphic Designer, nor would proficiency in Dreamweaver make a qualified Web Developer, nor Proficiency in MySQL a qualified Database Designer. Indeed, a common view of Surgeons may be that all they do is cut people up and shift things around, discounting any knowledge they may have of human anatomy, or medical science. Now imagine if there were a bunch of surgeons running around getting hired who had the same flawed perspective. It would be very difficult for a proper surgeon to gain any sense of credibility wouldn't it? That problem is real in both Web Development, and Graphic Design. Given that it's something both fields have in common, I would expect us to be able to team up to fight such perceptions, but sadly this is not the case for practitioners in either profession, as they each suffer from the misperceptions of the other. It makes me sad. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** ***
Re: [WSG] Visual Design Of Websites
On 7/12/07, Stuart Foulstone [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes, but that's still graphic design of the appearance of Websites, NOT Website Design. No, it's Graphic Design, Not Graphic Design of the Appearance of Websites. Qualifying it in such a way confuses matters, and is terribly innaccurate. It's not designing the dynamic structure, usability and accessibility (using Web standards) essential for good Website design which will hold across different platforms/browsers in which the user has control \ Why on earth not? What definition of graphic design do you have which excludes those things? Certainly not one that I've given. And no, the visual design should not be the first thing to consider in meeting a client's requirements. Too many bad Websites have been produced in which graphic designers who have pretended to be Website designers and placed the visual design first and insist that this is paramount. Who said anything about Visual design? I explicitly said that graphic design is *Not* about the visual, or aesthetic appearance. As it stands, I am concerned with Graphic design, and you are unconcerned with visual design of the appearance of things. , which I am largely unconcerned with as well. The only disagreement here is that I disagree that you reacted to anything that was in my post. On the other hand, if you or anyone would like to learn what graphic design is (Hint, it's not making things pretty. Hint hint.) may I suggest Meggs' History of Graphic Design. This is also a good book for the original poster. Others are Eric Speikerman's Don't Steal Sheep, and Robert Bringhurst's Elements of Typographic Style, which admittedly are only about typography, which is just one aspect of Graphic Design. I will leave it at that. If you would want to have further discussion of this with me off list, I would suggest at least humoring my premise Graphic Design's primary focus is not visual, and you will have a higher chance of learning something, such as what Graphic Design's primary focus is. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Visual Design Of Websites
Yes, I was replying the definition of graphic design that you gave. I quote: *Most* of this Graphic Designer's time should be spent with pencils and paper, and not in Photoshop or Illustrator. A great deal of time evaluating the problem at hand, and iteratively simplifying the solution. This is graphic design. On Thu, July 12, 2007 10:25 am, Breton Slivka wrote: On 7/12/07, Stuart Foulstone [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It's not designing the dynamic structure, usability and accessibility (using Web standards) essential for good Website design which will hold across different platforms/browsers in which the user has control \ Why on earth not? What definition of graphic design do you have which excludes those things? Certainly not one that I've given. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Visual Design Of Websites
Breton Slivka wrote: I explicitly said that graphic design is *Not* about the visual, or aesthetic appearance. Graphic design is an integrally visual craft. I cannot conceive of it in any other medium, unless you're saying its real focus is your college lectures (it gets even better than that). Graphic design which espouses all your favourite typographer's principles but is not aesthetically pleasing is utterly worthless (again, outside of the context of the lectures). You have not stated a single thing that graphic design /is/ actually about. You have mentioned three books about typography, which is a miniscule facet of graphic design. If people are as severly misguided as you believe, and your opinion is this controversial, you owe it to yourself (let alone us) to elaborate on why this is the case. Regards, Barney *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Visual Design Of Websites - ADMIN - very close to closing thread!
OK, this is not pointed at any one person... Lets get this thread back on topic and into more helpful, positive dialog - NOW! Otherwise the thread will be closed and you will all have to go to your rooms without supper! Russ (with wooden spoon!) If people are as severly misguided as you believe, and your opinion is this controversial, you owe it to yourself (let alone us) to elaborate on why this is the case. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Visual Design Of Websites
This issue really pushes my buttons, I will admit. I had my rant (my initial post), and I naively believed that would be pretty much the end of it. I forgot that I push buttons when I'm ranting. I've even provided an out in my last post inviting people to continue this conversation off list. That didn't quite work out, so here we are still on list. The essential problem at this point is that since I opened with a rant, I've set myself up a hostile situation. Hostile situations are not ideal for explaining difficult and subtle concepts. I suggest, since this is a hostile context, (which I again admit is mostly my fault), that most people who would respond to me at this point would not do so because they are interested in what I have to say. There is a high risk, regardless of whatever I post, of simply continuing a back and fourth disagreement which would be inappropriate for this list. I offer two alternatives. 1. If you are honestly interested in learning about graphic design, read the books I suggested, as they are a more credible and coherent a source than I am. Far be it from me to put you off of correct information simply because it's coming from me, random internet nutter #8. 2. If you really just want to continue the conversation specifically with me, Please do so off list. Me being a bit irritated at someone's offhand comment may have been borderline on topic. Me making pronouncements about what I think graphic design is about is definitely not on topic, and I will not be lured into making a further ass out of myself. -Breton *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Visual Design Of Websites - dont close it yet admin!
Graphic Design vs Web Design - the keyword here is design, both processes use the principles of design to solve a problem. We all use repetition, balance, emphasis to create a product suitable to our clients/overlords/users. let's not get hung up on the media. There's no doubt in my mind a part of any good website are the graphical/textual elements, but a successful solution must include a whole host of other disciplines (useability, accessibility etc). From my experience a typical web project involves taking an existing organisation into the wierd wide web. They already have a fancy logo, colour scheme, marketing strategy. The hard work is integrating it into a relevant web structure so everyone from grandma with her win98/IE4 to young johnny on his playstation 3 browser can use it to find whatever they wanted to find when they googled the org's keywords. Bruce (broken a few wooden spoons in my time!) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Visual Design Of Websites - THREAD CLOSED!
Admin This thread has moved way off topic. No hope of recovery. This thread is now officially closed Thanks Russ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Visual Design Of Websites
On Jul 11, 2007, at 8:44 PM, Hassan Schroeder wrote: ..but seriously, I have *never* seen an ad for a Graphic Designer (or worse, mislabeled Web Designer) that looked for anything but Photoshop/Illustrator, possibly Flash, proficiency. Nothing about BA/IA/UX/ID. Zip. Zed. In my experience, also, the position of Web Designer usually means specifically Graphic Design for the Web, IA is usually a separate discipline/department. But as Breton eloquently pointed out good graphic design is *much* more than making purty, and obviously design for the web is not the same as print design. The software skills required for web design don't even come close to defining a good designer, but in today's world no designer, good or indifferent, can practice without those skills. As to the other question addressed in this thread regarding skill sets taught in school: even if one intends to specialize, to work effectively in a team it is *very* important to have a good working knowledge of the scope of the work done by all team members. Andrew http://www.andrewmaben.net [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a well designed user interface, the user should not need instructions. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Visual Design Of Websites - THREAD CLOSED
THIS THREAD IS CLOSED This is the second reply to a closed thread. No more! The list guidelines state: The list administrators (and Core members) reserve the right to unsubscribe any member from the mail list(s)... Reasons include: - Repeatedly replying to threads that have been closed Thanks Russ on 13/7/07 12:51 AM, Bruce at wrote: ...As long as you have an endless appetite for learning more and more all over the board, before you know it you'll be pretty far along with your knowledge There really is no end to it, daily I am updating my skills and seem always to reach out and make that latest script I just mastered do even more. The only problem I have with this as a one man shop is that I spend more time learning than working on clients sites. Alas, I have not yet made my million...one more skill needed...ten to ignore - have no time...so I learn priorities...foundations. Web Standards. Content Management. Then the programming skills. After four or five years doing this full time and five part time, being from a construction background I speak of foundations a lot. Standards are that foundation. Bruce P bkdesign *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Visual Design Of Websites - THREAD CLOSED
Hopefully it will be kept in mind that some of us come to our email clients and go through the emails from top to bottom. I'd hate to be unsubscribed because of this practice. One would have to scan through all messages to make sure its safe to reply to any...maybe not a bad idea, but one could get to a point of not saying anything then. Bruce P - Original Message - From: russ - maxdesign [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Web Standards Group wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 11:07 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] Visual Design Of Websites - THREAD CLOSED THIS THREAD IS CLOSED This is the second reply to a closed thread. No more! The list guidelines state: The list administrators (and Core members) reserve the right to unsubscribe any member from the mail list(s)... Reasons include: - Repeatedly replying to threads that have been closed Thanks Russ on 13/7/07 12:51 AM, Bruce at wrote: ...As long as you have an endless appetite for learning more and more all over the board, before you know it you'll be pretty far along with your knowledge There really is no end to it, daily I am updating my skills and seem always to reach out and make that latest script I just mastered do even more. The only problem I have with this as a one man shop is that I spend more time learning than working on clients sites. Alas, I have not yet made my million...one more skill needed...ten to ignore - have no time...so I learn priorities...foundations. Web Standards. Content Management. Then the programming skills. After four or five years doing this full time and five part time, being from a construction background I speak of foundations a lot. Standards are that foundation. Bruce P bkdesign *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Visual Design Of Websites - THREAD CLOSED
Russ maybe there is a way to filter the incoming post that is thread closed' from being delivered as soon as the moderator(s) announced it? So that it saves everyone frustration and irritation? :) tee On Jul 12, 2007, at 8:07 AM, russ - maxdesign wrote: THIS THREAD IS CLOSED This is the second reply to a closed thread. No more! *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Visual Design Of Websites
Here are some helpful links: Color Design: http://www.sessions.edu/career_center/design_tools/color_calculator/index.asp and Color Theory: http://www.color-wheel-pro.com/color-theory-basics.html Sample CSS Page Design Layouts for understanding how templates layout design http://www.maxdesign.com.au/presentation/page_layouts/ http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=CssLayouts Hope this helps - Susan On 7/10/07, Marvin Hunkin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi. just wondering, any one able to give advice, help, tips, tricks and techniques. now, failed my two visual design subjects in my web site design course. -- Susan R. Grossman [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Visual Design Of Websites
Hi Marvin, It sounds like your trying to do to much to soon. First, lets understand the different aspects of web development. 1) Web Design - This involves understanding colors, extensive knowledge in graphics applications such as photoshop, illustrator or fireworks. 2) Front End - This is the coding side of things, the HTML, CSS and Javascript. Some front end developers can design aswell. 3) Back End - This is the PHP, MySQL, Java, ASP, Perl and other web based languages*. Alot of back end developers spend so much time behind what you see that they dont know much about developing front end, but still, alot of people can and do know all 3. There is more sides to the web, but i wont discuss them. To me it sounds like your trying to take on all 3, without having any working knowledge, or not enough knowledge of any. Personally i think you should sit back, and ask yourself what you want to do over the next 2 years, is it front end, or back end, or purley design? And when you've made up your mind, spend the time and learn more. If you cant grasp layers for design, your in a bit of a mess as this is real basic stuff, so understanding how photoshop works would be a great start, but you can't expect yourself to learn this all in a day. Do what feels right, but at the moment, i would'nt waste anymore time and/or money on this course until you can get to grips with the basics, which is at least Photoshop, HTML and CSS. There are some good resources out there, search google. Good luck, and keep sticking at it, i can recommend a few good books if you need. I will give you one tip, if your going to be doing front end (HTML, CSS, JS) try to use notepad or notepad++, dont bother with WYSIWYG editors such as dreamweaver ect. Notepad and the W3C Manuals should be enough to learn the foundations. Kind Regards On 7/11/07, Susan Grossman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Here are some helpful links: Color Design: http://www.sessions.edu/career_center/design_tools/color_calculator/index.asp and Color Theory: http://www.color-wheel-pro.com/color-theory-basics.html Sample CSS Page Design Layouts for understanding how templates layout design http://www.maxdesign.com.au/presentation/page_layouts/ http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=CssLayouts Hope this helps - Susan On 7/10/07, Marvin Hunkin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi. just wondering, any one able to give advice, help, tips, tricks and techniques. now, failed my two visual design subjects in my web site design course. -- Susan R. Grossman [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Visual Design Of Websites
Not that this will necessarily address Marvin's issues, but I just couldn't let it go by :-) First, lets understand the different aspects of web development. 1) Web Design - This involves understanding colors, extensive knowledge in graphics applications such as photoshop, illustrator or fireworks. To which I'd say -- sorry, no, that's *graphic* design. Real web design addresses business needs, information architecture, user experience and interaction design. It's what enables creation of wireframes or monochrome undecorated prototypes for usability testing long before any graphic artist's involvement. Without that, you're just painting pictures in markup... IMO :-) -- Hassan Schroeder - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Webtuitive Design === (+1) 408-938-0567 === http://webtuitive.com dream. code. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Visual Design Of Websites
Yep and i would totally agree, but try telling that to marvin and youll confuse the poor guy, i was keeping things very simple for him/her. From past knowledge, if your to add jargon (which it is to marvin here) you would do more damage then good at this stage. But yep Hassan is right. This is why many companies will take on people from different feilds and not an All In One guy. So again, you need to decide on what it is you want to do, and dont try to take on the world, you will loose, i tryed, i lost and im sure alot of us here have. Its actually good to accept that not many people can be all rounders and keep up will all the new conventions, updates, bugs ect in all the different fields. Do the one, or two, and be brilliant at it. On 7/12/07, Hassan Schroeder [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Not that this will necessarily address Marvin's issues, but I just couldn't let it go by :-) First, lets understand the different aspects of web development. 1) Web Design - This involves understanding colors, extensive knowledge in graphics applications such as photoshop, illustrator or fireworks. To which I'd say -- sorry, no, that's *graphic* design. Real web design addresses business needs, information architecture, user experience and interaction design. It's what enables creation of wireframes or monochrome undecorated prototypes for usability testing long before any graphic artist's involvement. Without that, you're just painting pictures in markup... IMO :-) -- Hassan Schroeder - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Webtuitive Design === (+1) 408-938-0567 === http://webtuitive.com dream. code. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Visual Design Of Websites
On 12/07/07, James Jeffery [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yep and i would totally agree, but try telling that to marvin and youll confuse the poor guy, i was keeping things very simple for him/her. From past knowledge, if your to add jargon (which it is to marvin here) you would do more damage then good at this stage. But yep Hassan is right. This is why many companies will take on people from different feilds and not an All In One guy. So again, you need to decide on what it is you want to do, and dont try to take on the world, you will loose, i tryed, i lost and im sure alot of us here have. Its actually good to accept that not many people can be all rounders and keep up will all the new conventions, updates, bugs ect in all the different fields. Do the one, or two, and be brilliant at it. The trouble is that if this is part of a university/college course, then you don't get a choice. I mean, I knew what I wanted to specialise in, but I had to do all sorts of things during my degree course just so I could get that little piece of paper at the end. And while I technically didn't have to do brilliantly at all of them (except for the sake of my academic pride!) I did at least have to do well enough at all of them to pass. Any sort of schooling tends to try and turn out all-rounders. If you want to specialise, then do some independent study (certification courses, etc) once you have your bit of paper. :) Or, during, if you're as impatient as I am and can't be bothered waiting. ~Seona. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Visual Design Of Websites
On 7/12/07, Hassan Schroeder [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Not that this will necessarily address Marvin's issues, but I just couldn't let it go by :-) First, lets understand the different aspects of web development. 1) Web Design - This involves understanding colors, extensive knowledge in graphics applications such as photoshop, illustrator or fireworks. To which I'd say -- sorry, no, that's *graphic* design. Real web design addresses business needs, information architecture, user experience and interaction design. It's what enables creation of wireframes or monochrome undecorated prototypes for usability testing long before any graphic artist's involvement. Without that, you're just painting pictures in markup... IMO :-) -- Hassan Schroeder - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Webtuitive Design === (+1) 408-938-0567 === http://webtuitive.com dream. code. Argghh no! the ignorance! Just stop going about thinking you know what you're talking about when it comes to Graphic Design! Graphic Design isn't Make it Purdy, Graphic design isn't Learn how to use photoshop. It's exactly that perception that leads to awful website after awful website. Certainly, aesthetic beauty is a *side effect* of the design process, but *do not* make the mistake of thinking that's what graphic design is. Graphic design for print design has four aspects: Client Needs Audience Expectations Process (Identifying the problem space, going through many iterations, selecting the best solutions, and iterative refinement. This involves a A knowledge of the principles of good typography, and the principles of good visual design of course, but it is not pure visual design) Craftsmanship The graphic design process on the web is no different. A Good graphic designer (one who is familiar with what graphic design actually is, rather than the ignorant stereotype you just displayed) Should be involved in the process as EARLY and as OFTEN as possible. Not in the last step as you suggest. *Most* of this Graphic Designer's time should be spent with pencils and paper, and not in Photoshop or Illustrator. A great deal of time evaluating the problem at hand, and iteratively simplifying the solution. This is graphic design. If this is not what you've found in graphic designers in the past, then you have accidentally hired a Stylist, or possibly an Illustrator, not a graphic designer. Please do not slander my profession in the future. And P.S. this is a little tongue in cheek, so don't take too much offense. But seriously, you are wrong about graphic design. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Visual Design Of Websites
I'm currently doing the same course as Marvin (different stage and campus) and I don't think its a hinderance to be exposed to all sides of web development. I don't think they want us (students) to become all-rounders but to at least develop fundamental basics so if we are interested (eg. databases or graphic side of the web) we can then move into specialised fields or do further study eg. do a programming certificate (learning java and c sharp) or database design/development or multimedia design... I'll be continuing my cert iv course in website design then moving into the diploma course in website development (to learn more back-end languages eg. ajax, php, mysql and asp.net) starting next year. Seona Bellamy wrote: The trouble is that if this is part of a university/college course, then you don't get a choice. I mean, I knew what I wanted to specialise in, but I had to do all sorts of things during my degree course just so I could get that little piece of paper at the end. And while I technically didn't have to do brilliantly at all of them (except for the sake of my academic pride!) I did at least have to do well enough at all of them to pass. Any sort of schooling tends to try and turn out all-rounders. If you want to specialise, then do some independent study (certification courses, etc) once you have your bit of paper. :) Or, during, if you're as impatient as I am and can't be bothered waiting. ~Seona. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** ***List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmUnsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfmHelp: [EMAIL PROTECTED]***
Re: [WSG] Visual Design Of Websites
Hi This is true, the C4 course in Web Technology or whatever it is called now at TAFE NSW aims to give everyone a grounding knowledge in the fundementals of well, web technology. This includes graphic design, database design, server side coding, project management and many others. Some people find they are good at all, although that's rare, and they take this knowledge into being a good all rounder. Others find one topic that interests them. That's the value of a course like that, although they might not teach everything to top spec (at least they didn't in 2000). The good tech teams have at least one person who can move and translate across multiple disciplines - that in some cases is the only way the specialists can communicate with each other. J On 7/12/07, Adeline Yaw [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm currently doing the same course as Marvin (different stage and campus) and I don't think its a hinderance to be exposed to all sides of web development. I don't think they want us (students) to become all-rounders but to at least develop fundamental basics so if we are interested (eg. databases or graphic side of the web) we can then move into specialised fields or do further study eg. do a programming certificate (learning java and c sharp) or database design/development or multimedia design... I'll be continuing my cert iv course in website design then moving into the diploma course in website development (to learn more back-end languages eg. ajax, php, mysql and asp.net) starting next year. Seona Bellamy wrote: The trouble is that if this is part of a university/college course, then you don't get a choice. I mean, I knew what I wanted to specialise in, but I had to do all sorts of things during my degree course just so I could get that little piece of paper at the end. And while I technically didn't have to do brilliantly at all of them (except for the sake of my academic pride!) I did at least have to do well enough at all of them to pass. Any sort of schooling tends to try and turn out all-rounders. If you want to specialise, then do some independent study (certification courses, etc) once you have your bit of paper. :) Or, during, if you're as impatient as I am and can't be bothered waiting. ~Seona. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Visual Design Of Websites
Breton Slivka wrote: Argghh no! the ignorance! Just stop going about thinking you know what you're talking about when it comes to Graphic Design! Graphic Design isn't Make it Purdy, Graphic design isn't Learn how to use photoshop. It's exactly that perception that leads to awful website after awful website. Certainly, aesthetic beauty is a *side effect* of the design process, but *do not* make the mistake of thinking that's what graphic design is. Wow. Apparently I woke /someone/ up :-) A Good graphic designer (one who is familiar with what graphic design actually is, rather than the ignorant stereotype you just displayed) And *you* may well be an exception to the rule, but... ... But seriously, you are wrong about graphic design. ..but seriously, I have *never* seen an ad for a Graphic Designer (or worse, mislabeled Web Designer) that looked for anything but Photoshop/Illustrator, possibly Flash, proficiency. Nothing about BA/IA/UX/ID. Zip. Zed. For the vast majority of such positions, it's all about purty. :-) Seriously. I do know exceptions -- Darrell Sano, who I worked with at Sun, comes to mind -- but they're few and far between. Far too far. -- Hassan Schroeder - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Webtuitive Design === (+1) 408-938-0567 === http://webtuitive.com dream. code. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Visual Design Of Websites
James Ellis wrote: Hi This is true, the C4 course in Web Technology or whatever it is called now at TAFE NSW aims to give everyone a grounding knowledge in the fundementals of well, web technology. This includes graphic design, database design, server side coding, project management and many others. And this is, generally, desirable. Many people don't know what topics interest them. Others think they know, but then find another area more appealing. And even those that know exactly what they are interested in benefit from that area being placed in some kind of context. As you move up through the AQTF toward higher level qualifications you will find that the knowledge and skills become more specific and are treated in increasing depth. For those who feel that they have the necessary skills to skip a stage there are typically advanced standing provisions to demonstrate they have the pre-requisite skills. The Cert IV is mostly front end, with the diploma looking at server-side, although different campuses will choose a different mix of electives. Some people find they are good at all, although that's rare, and they take this knowledge into being a good all rounder. Others find one topic that interests them. That's the value of a course like that, although they might not teach everything to top spec (at least they didn't in 2000). I think that web design education, like web design, has moved forward since 2000. At least in the campuses I have worked at there was a focus on semantics, CSS layout, accessibility and the likes. It is easy to think back to the days when we were at college and say they didn't even mention CSS, but its like looking back at old table based sites that you created back in the day. shudder. Having said that, it varies between campuses and institutions. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Visual Design Of Websites
On 7/12/07, Hassan Schroeder [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: , you are wrong about graphic design. ..but seriously, I have *never* seen an ad for a Graphic Designer (or worse, mislabeled Web Designer) that looked for anything but Photoshop/Illustrator, possibly Flash, proficiency. Nothing about BA/IA/UX/ID. Zip. Zed. For the vast majority of such positions, it's all about purty. :-) Seriously. I do know exceptions -- Darrell Sano, who I worked with at Sun, comes to mind -- but they're few and far between. Far too far. That is an error in the Ads you've seen, and in the Advertiser's understanding of Graphic Design being just as flawed as yours. This is not an error in my definition of Graphic Design. I will not dispute that many self proclaimed Graphic Designers hold the same flawed view. This is a serious problem, which may be too big for me to singlehandedly handle, but a problem nonethless. To give an analogy, one could easily advertise for an accountant who is proficient in the use of Quicken and TurboTax. However this would be a flawed advertisement, as proficiency in those programs does not a qualified accountant make. Nor does proficiency in photoshop make a qualified Graphic Designer, nor would proficiency in Dreamweaver make a qualified Web Developer, nor Proficiency in MySQL a qualified Database Designer. Indeed, a common view of Surgeons may be that all they do is cut people up and shift things around, discounting any knowledge they may have of human anatomy, or medical science. Now imagine if there were a bunch of surgeons running around getting hired who had the same flawed perspective. It would be very difficult for a proper surgeon to gain any sense of credibility wouldn't it? That problem is real in both Web Development, and Graphic Design. Given that it's something both fields have in common, I would expect us to be able to team up to fight such perceptions, but sadly this is not the case for practitioners in either profession, as they each suffer from the misperceptions of the other. It makes me sad. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
