[zbmethod] Re: Hey everyone
Nothing to be worried about, its a big undertaking and should take a lot of time, but be aware that the more algs you know the easier it is to pick up more, it's an exponential learning curve from my experience. I finished L1, just need a couple more T1 and I'll have all the no CP. You're right though, ppl are losing interest. But that is OKAY. Peronsally, I need time to get adjusted to using all htese algs I now know. I caught Chris's addiction/fad of blindfold solving big cubes. Just today I made a video of myself doing a 4x4 in 26 minutes. Lots of 30s pauses where I do absolutley nothing and choke or course. I feel confident to do a 5x5 :) now. But yes, I really should post my S1, H1, and Pi1 sets sometime. this is certainly going to be my roughest semester academically though. -Doug --- In zbmethod@yahoogroups.com, Mike Bennett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It's great to hear you're getting so far with it! I was worried that people were losing interest because of how quiet it's gotten on here lately. Hopefully once more people are back at school or into the normal swing of things, this will pick back up. Anyway, congrats, Doug. -Mike Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/zbmethod/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[zbmethod] Re: Search codes to be put in a .txt file
Yes I agree. Well in addition to the desired masks, it is probably best to also do a general (no mask) search. I can run an entire COLL category for you guys, just prepare the input lines, so I don't have to think about it. E-mail them to me at d_funny007 [at] yahoo. 1 COLL times 12 edge possibilites (though usually less) times 4 maskings times 3 metrics is 144 (though typically half due to symmetries) ACube runs per COLL... this is rediculous (although I can do one in one night if need be). We need to take out STM and one of the masks, you see we don't really lose much, it usualy happens that the nice RUF or URD algs come through in the general search. (RUL algs are genereal too far away from optimal to catch in the general serach) If we just do RULM and a general search, each in FTM only then it's only 24 outputs to sort through per COLL case (and thare are not too many COLLs). Only if there is some serious problems with finding a good one there should we go farther. But this is my opinion only, and I acknowledge that being part of a group means that I will have to do what ever task is assigned to me. Thus I await school to be over so that someone from self- selected group A gives me concrete instructions. Until then I will continue posting my no CP algs, which have been in my notes and gone through a few years of evolution. Also, if no one wants to do this task, I guess I can spend time coding something that will generate a lot of input lines. But that will take up a lot of my time. Ok perhaps someone here has time, and wants to take up a chunk of the ZBLL and type out the input lines for them. And before you run them, e-mail them to me and if I'm not terribly busy I bet I will beat your computer to it. (don't take my enthusiasm the wrong way) Also, just to get started with things (as we wait for further direction from our fearless leader), could some one go through T1 timings for Chris's page, look at his T5 algs, and also my L1 algs that I posted earlier, as well as the ones someone else posted earlier at http://www.belgiancubes.be/zbll/ for diagonal CP H- Orientaion cases. -Doug --- In zbmethod@yahoogroups.com, Gilles van den Peereboom [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think that searching with too many masks will just take forever. We need to balance the qualitity of our work and the progress (after all, there are still quite a lot of cases). I'm kind of happy with these masks ( RULM, RUF, URD). I don't know how to use ACube very well, I don't even know how to put a mask. WHat I do is I just ask him a solution and then I work on it to be able to do it a bit faster but this might not be the best approach. Gilles. 2005/12/13, Doug Lee [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Who here wants STM optimized algs? We aren't Corners First people here, I used to search only in STM on principle, but I no longer feel it holds much potential. I use it a lot for my ELL though, but that's totally different. I think it's better to look at the output of a QTM or HTM set, and look for those that then lowest in STM. This times 3 factor is a bit daunting for the timespan I imagine. It would be great if we could get all the Acube outputs generated very early on and then have everybody filter through it. I think RULM = 431, RUF = 510, URD = 610, and general search would be enough. I have a thing for URD type ones. -Doug --- In zbmethod@yahoogroups.com, cmhardw [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yeah I agree, using each turn mask all the time would make this take forever. For cases that are really bad I try a lot of those different turn masks though too to try to find something. I wouldn't throw out RULM, or maybe I can do all the RULM searches, since some of my best ZBLL algs use M turns in an otherwise RUL type alg too. This is where we need to find out what type of turns we all like the most, and try to accomodate everyone. Actualyl it will take longer for just RUL searches, but will include RULM moves too, maybe Doug we could condense the RUL into RULM and be left with RULM = 431 RUF = 510 URD = 610 The problem is I also like RULD = 630 moves and already 4 is getting to be too much to do for every case. Perhaps we can restrict to the all general searches, and only do the other side searches in case one of the cases we try just does not have anything good at all. The problem is that if we do these side searches for everything, Doug you may run too many searches. Say the RUL algs for one case stink, but the general includes an optimal alg that is awesome? We have then wasted that search time. I think getting just the QTM/HTM/STM searches for each case would be an ok starting point. From there STM solvers, HTM solvers, etc. can search for the ones they like and if the algs stink, then individualyl
[zbmethod] Re: Ok... let's get serious about this method of ours
What do you mean by double-Sune? Are you refering to the H1 cases? I already have those. The one where there is no EP is my slowest, feel free to work on that one, it's the only non-trivial one there I think, the ohter's are easy/fast. Work on the other H-Orientation cases, I don't think many people have looked at those yet. If you are talking about general double-sune cases outside of H1, then I have many of those covered too. Me and DanH have good L1 sets completed. I don't know if Pi1 needs work, I have a set, but it's kinda slow I think. -Doug --- In zbmethod@yahoogroups.com, Gilles van den Peereboom [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello :-) I think a database should be enough for the storage of our work. However we might want to have a more complete site so that it's clearer and easier to read. But let's do the first things first. If nobody minds, I'd like to start with the Double-Sune case without any corners to swap (only edges). I haven't checked all the existing zb-ll pages so if this has already been looked into very deep, please tell me :p Concerning the optimization and the different styles, I think that if we want to do this really well, we need to be complete. I mean that when we have an algorithm for a case that can be done sub3 : it's very good. But maybe there is another one which could be faster. So I propose that we at the least propose 2 different algs that can be done sub3. However this might be hard, but I think the result is worth it. I'll start working on this tomorrow. :-) Gilles. 2005/12/11, cmhardw [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hey Gilles, That would be awesome thank you! I'm also going to start searching and including all the search lists for the algs for others to search for ones they like too. Here is the biggest problem. We all have different styles. I vastly prefer RULM to anything else, and will often choose a sub- optimal RULM alg over an optimal length one. Also, some people are better at using the optimal algs and getting them to full speed. So here is the idea. I am a self proclaimed RULM user. I prefer RULM to anything else, although I do have lots of RUF and RULFD types algs that I like a lot. So once someone finds a list of potential algs for a case I could search for the RULM alg, and someone who is better at making the optimal alg fast could search for that. We can group ourselves accorind go out styles. That way, on the central site where we post these algs, each case will have upwards of hopefully 10 different algs that are optimized for different styles. If 10 isn't possible, at least a few to choose from. I don't know the best way to set up this group interaction, perhaps we can all vote for our favorite and vastly preferred styles to start with. I am very much a RULM solver though, and prefer it to all other types by far. If too many of us are the same style then we can branch out. I also like RUF a lot and could search for those. Basically we need people to just search for algs in all types of metrics, and people to sift through algs once they are found. Imay even be able to get Richard Patterson to help us for the sifting part. I am willing to run my processor 24-7 to search for algs, as well as look for good ones among those found. We should coordinate as a team and work on these together. Let's serioulsly turn team [zb] into a group effort to improve the ZB method. I do think with a truly optimized ZBLL, that this method can be one of the best, if not the best. But it will take a flawless ZBLL. Let me know what you guys think. I want to start with my T-orientations case 1 algs first. Most are sub-3 already, but I want to optimize those that aren't and also research and provide algs for different styles as well. What do you guys think? Should we make a database and divy up all the COLL cases? What would work best, I want as much input from everyone as we can get so that everyone can enjoy what they are working on, and do what they want to work on. Chris definitely still team [zb] as well --- In zbmethod@yahoogroups.com, Gilles van den Peereboom [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello, Even though I stopped learning ZB a few weeks ago, I'm still interested in that extension. I'm kind of fed up with learning an huge amount of algorithms without always understanding what I do. But I'm really interested in finding new ones either by myself or with the help of a computer. If you want some help, I could help for exemple on one of the orientation case (maybe split it with someone if anybody is interested). I'm rather fond of the Double-Sune orientation so if there is any case you prefer to have first (since I'm probably not gonna use this in competition), just tell me which one :-) Gilles. 2005/12/11, cmhardw
[zbmethod] Re: New poll for zbmethod
BOOO --- In zbmethod@yahoogroups.com, Johannes Laire [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In zbmethod@yahoogroups.com, Bob Burton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Haha, finally somebody new voted with a new opinion! :) ~ Bob I did it :P I just can't believe that it's possible to solve ZBLL fast enough. Because OLL+PLL can be done in 5-6 seconds, and ZBF2L is approximately 1 second slower than F2L, ZBLL has to be done faster than 4-5 seconds. And even if you average 3-4 seconds for ZBLL, it's only a second faster than Fridrich, and you have spent many years just to achieve that one second. I think it would be better to just practice Fridrich or other normal methods and I'm sure that your average times will drop more than one second in 2-3 years :) Anyway, this is just what I think, maybe you can some day prove that I am wrong :) I'll wait and see :) - Johannes (sorry my bad English...) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/MXMplB/TM ~- Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/zbmethod/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[zbmethod] Re: Advanced Team BLD
It was unfortunate that Chris had to leave so early at our last meeting. I was hoping to get in some of those Advanced Team BLD solves with him as you call it. I know his numbering system better than he does. And we have very similar naming scheme for the ZBF2Ls. The only problem is that I recognize COLL by CP first. But I would be able to understant the CO categorization probably. Learned a lot of team BLD codes too... what a pity the closest person to me is JonM and he's 5 hrs away. Though he doesn't seem like the type to be into team BLD. Oh and ther's this BenK guy, but I've never really meant him. Hem... I do know Chris's ZBLL naming/code convention as well now. Though I pool all the inverses together: T1 and U1 are the same thing to me, as are A and AS cases, as are T3 and T4, etc. Speaking of which I am avoiding learning the T3/T4 cases. I think those will be one of the last of ZBLL I want to learn, the COLL is just so fast... For me next up is the Heise-subset... the portion of ZBLL where the edges are solved (About two per COLL category, but many of them non- standard COLL.). -Doug --- In zbmethod@yahoogroups.com, Bob Burton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey Chris, I was wondering what your opinion would be for an advanced Team BLD technique. It would be based around ZB. The first 3 pairs would be the same. Then for the 4th pair, for example, instead of C3, you could say C3 bad front, to indicate that all edges are flipped correctly except the front one. This would give a ZBF2L with almost no added cost (since the solves are longer, the small fraction of added recognition becomes less significant). Then you can call COLL for the next step. What I'm ultimately curious about, is if it would be possible to assign a simple system that you could use to distinguish among any case and easily decide what algorithm to use for full ZB. Any thoughts? ~ Bob Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/MXMplB/TM ~- Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/zbmethod/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[zbmethod] Re: A database
Thanks Bob! Made me sit down and count up the cases I know w.r.t the probabilities. I was ONE case away from knowing more than Chris (at least on paper) for ZBLL. I was a bit suprised at the high percentages here. So anyhow I decided to learn one more case: T1 with edges H. That did the trick and tipped the scale :). Anything to bring out our competitive natures. Not sure how VHF2L would be defined so I'm not sure what that column really means. I hope everybody did the case counts with factoring in the probabilities of occurance. I think that would be a better comparison value. -Doug --- In zbmethod@yahoogroups.com, Bob Burton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey all, I created a database for people to update their progress in learning ZB by showing how much they know for certain aspects of ZB. ~ Bob Team [zb] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- 1.2 million kids a year are victims of human trafficking. Stop slavery. http://us.click.yahoo.com/WpTY2A/izNLAA/yQLSAA/MXMplB/TM ~- Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/zbmethod/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[zbmethod] Re: Motivation and balance
Correction: +mirrors only, I counted inverses separately. I can generate the algs and give an average move statistic on this using ACube. It would take ACube less than 1 minute on my newest machine to generate. It would take me like 5-10 minutes all together to report on my findings. Right now I'm at home for Thanksgiving, and besides my computer on campus has a busted chipset fan. I'll get on it over the weekend. This seems like something I am used to doing though. I recently generated a huge alg set for the sq-1, this type of stuff is right up my alley. -Doug --- In zbmethod@yahoogroups.com, Mike Bennett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That's a lot better than my quick guesstimate. Thanks. Now, any ideas on how to find the algs for the exact cases, or the average move count for them? If it's really only 31 cases+inverses and mirrors, I would be very interested in learning them. Especially considering how many of those I know already, like the 3 PLL's and the 3 cases permuting M slice pieces only. Thanks for your help. -Mike team [zb] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Fair play? Video games influencing politics. Click and talk back! http://us.click.yahoo.com/u8TY5A/tzNLAA/yQLSAA/MXMplB/TM ~- Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/zbmethod/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
