Re: [ZION] Definition of liberal
This is more of the meaning it still has in Europe, and to a certain extent, in Canada, although Canada, as in so many things, is halfway between. It has more of the US meaning here in Alberta, but it has the European meaning more in Ontario, where I lived for 14 years on two different occasions. The Liberal Democrats in the UK are a centrist, pro-entrepreneurial party, believe it or not (they're the 3rd party after Labour and the Conservatives). They're popular in exurban areas and in high-tech areas like Berkshire, for instance, and their MPs tend to be younger as a rule. In Germany das Freie Demokratische Partei (Free Democratic Party) is also called die Liberalen (see the fine print in their logo at the top of their webpage http://www.fdp.de/portal/portal.phtml?t=2lbv=y, where it says FDP -- die Liberalen; kind of like LDS -- the Mormons, I guess). They are a fairly small party, but usually form part of the ruling coalition, either with the left-of-centre SDP or the right-of-centre CDU/CSU. (Schröder is SDP but the SDP won with about the same margin the Republicans did in the US, in the German federal elections about a month ago). For the past decade they've been frozen out as the SDP has gone with the Greens (left-wing) instead, in the so-called Rot-Grün Koalition (Red Green, now in syndication on cable in the US). The FDP is like the CDU/CSU but without the latter's conservative social agenda, so perhaps more like Libertarians than Republicans. I don't know Belgian politics as well, but I understand they have a Liberal Party as well. Steven Montgomery wrote: At 08:25 PM 10/23/2002, you wrote: Unfortunately, it is what Liberal now means in the US. It used to be that liberal was one that sought to help the underdog with smart assistance from government, while ensuring the freedoms of the average joe. But the term liberal has been co-opted by fringe groups in the US. Gore is a perfect example of what liberal now means in the US: follows the extreme environmental tactics, reproductive rights, and the rights of perverse groups. Actually our founding fathers (U.S.) were perfect examples of the classical liberal. Etymology wise the word has roots in the more meaningful term, liberty. Constitutionalism. I want to be known as a constitutionalist in the tradition of James Madison-father of the Constitution. Labels change and perhaps in the old tradition I would be considered one of the original Whigs. The new title I would wear today is that of conservative-though in its original British connotation the term liberal fits me better than the original meaning of the word conservative. To show how labels can change or be stolen, a liberal today believes in greater government intervention and less personal freedom for the people, which is practically the opposite of what the old liberals believed years ago. (The Red Carpet, pp. 206-7.) (Ezra Taft Benson, The Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson [Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1988], 690.) -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] HTML BODY a href=http://www.getusout.org;img border=0 src=http://www.getusout.org/images/guolink.gif;/a PPBR /BODY /HTML / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] High Priests
John W. Redelfs wrote: At 11:41 PM, Tuesday, 10/22/02, Gary Smith wrote: It is partially an issue of maturity/age: placing those who have not had a line authority position requiring HP status, into the HP quorum/group, in order to strengthen the individual and also to strengthen the quorum. Yes but that is not what the CHI says. A man who would be more comfortable meeting with the high priests because of his age could be authorized to do so without ordaining him a high priest. This is true. As in my original anecdote, I even taught HPs while a 70, and met with them for several years before being ordained a HP. Unless there is compelling reason otherwise, such as inspiration to the stake president, a man is called to be a high priest only if his calling requires it. At least that is my understanding. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
Paul Osborne wrote: And, yes, John gave me some good pointers. I've seen how John operates too and have watched him type letters to the list. I've seen his computer, chair, book shelves, and table. I can visualize him right now in my mind. Having trouble sleeping, are we? ducking with eyes open in two directions... -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Sniper Victims
Thanks for elucidating my fuzzification. Valerie Nielsen Williams wrote: Marc: Maybe a little ;-)I've pasted articles below on each victim. val Hmm. Maybe I've got my wires crossed. The one I'm thinking of worked at the time of her death at the FBI (which doesn't say what she did earlier), and she had red hair. Does that fit in? Valerie Nielsen Williams wrote: I didn't know this, but I do know that when the woman vaccuuming her van was killed, the news said she was a former nanny, married and a recent convert to the Mormon Church. val _ from http://www.meridianmagazine.com/editorial/021016sniper.html Latter-day Saint Victim The sniper brings the threat close to home. How close? On October 4, when the sniper killed five people in a two-hour span, the shootings were within a 2-1/2 mile radius of each otherand the Washington D.C. temple. One of the victims was Lori Ann Lewis-Rivera, a 25 year-old Latter-day Saint, who was shot in the back at a Kensington, Maryland Shell station -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
At 21:43 10/23/2002 -0500, Gary wrote: The Brethren had comfortable lives because they earned a comfortable life. Not so sure I agree, Gary. Reference Approaching Zion Chapters 4 and 5. Not so sure earned is the correct choice of terms here. Till / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] UN Moral Authority
At 09:22 PM 10/23/2002, Marc wrote: the UN Security Council). Nation states are dying as institutions, and power is flowing up to super-regions, and down to micro-regions, so the question will come to make even less and less sense as the new century unfolds, imo. -- Marc A. Schindler I agree, and believe you are right. Although we would probably disagree on the causes. -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
At 21:46 10/23/2002 -0500, St Paul wrote: I will admit that I used to annoyed about it in the past. Till detects that it is still unresolved But it is the Lord's church and he can do whatever he wants, so I have come to accept it. You're on the right track, though but I'm sure he had sufficient for his means Here's the key. I'm working on it. :-) Absolutely the best statement yet. With this, all things can be accomplished. Till, who hopes he hasn't offended / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: Voting and parties (was Re: [ZION] Cuba and Castro)
Never, or when you die, or when Christ returns, whichever comes first. Jon Cousin Bill wrote: At some point in the past, Mark wrote: Bill brings up an interesting point. Is it a good idea to work within a party in order to change it? Presumably the answer is yes. What if the party currently supports every charter violating thing in existence? Just where does one draw the line? - And when does one just give up on it? / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priest
I felt the same thing when I was released from my mission. It was an almost palpable loss. Elmer L. Fairbank wrote: At 02:55 10/24/2002 +, St Stephen wrote: If a man who has previously served as elder's quorum president, then been released, is again called to serve, he does not need to have the keys given him. He already has them. The same applies to a former bishop who is called to serve again as bishop, or a former stake president called to serve again as stake president, etc. Mark, Larry, Till, correct me if I'm wrong, but this is my understanding. My understanding is that this is not correct. The priesthood office remains but the keys to function in that role/stewardship are removed. Who was it at conference told of being bishop and losing his date night. He also said that after he was released it was impossible for him to give counsel as he had. I have actually felt the mantle of authority leave (a phenomenon I would describe as being physical, replaced by a stupor of thought, our current state) when released from leadership callings. Till the no-longer enlightened / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] High Priests More Active Than Elders
From what I've noticed here in my ward-- Prospective Elders: 98% Inactive* Elders: Seems like 25-30% Inactive, at least here High Priests: 5-10% Inactive, but it seems as if the inactivity occurs mainly for health reasons, such as an extended hospitalization As Paul O. noted, Prospective Elders are counted in the numbers for the Elders Quorum, regardless of the actual priesthood office the member has (if any). On that basis, the 50% inactivity rate for the entire Quorum sounds just about right. /Sandy/ (* The 2% in this category are invariably recent converts, and most of these don't remain Prospective Elders for very long, as they receive the Melchezidek Priesthood within months to perhaps over a year. The remaining 98% either dropped off the radar screen shortly after being baptised, or else fell away while they were still attending Aaronic Priesthood quorums.) / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] High Priest
-Larry- Keys, where needed, are given to the person set apart for a calling. He only holds those keys until he is released. -Stephen- How about that? That's directly opposite to what a bishop told me years back. Thanks for the clarification. I concur with Larry. An ordained bishop, if called again to lead a ward, even the same ward he used to lead, will again be set apart as the bishop of that ward and given the keys of a bishop. Obviously, he is not ordained again to the office of bishop. = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- __ Download the FREE Opera browser at www.opera.com/download/ Free OperaMail at http://www.operamail.com/ Powered by Outblaze / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] The Jerusalem Temple
At 12:10 10/24/2002 -0500, St Paul wrote: I think we have been here before. It's a good subject. I say that the Jews can't build a temple that the Lord will accept. A temple must be built and consecrated to the Lord Jesus Christ and the Jews cannot do that. The temple in Jerusalem will be built by the LDS church for in behalf of Mormon Jews. The LDS church is the only people under the heavens that can perform such a work. To think that the Jews will build a temple outside of the authority of the Mormons is just like saying the Jehovah's Witnesses can do so too. There is no scriptural reference to support such an idea. Somebody should have clued Solomon in on this idea! Could have saved him a lot of expense. Likewise Zarubabel. Herod's another story. IOW, I don't rule out the possibility, although in principle I agree. I just think that such statements are too uncomfortably close to a bible, a bible, we have a bible to suit me. The Lord will do whatever he wants, without consulting me first. (good thing for the world, too) Till / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] The Jerusalem Temple
We know that a temple will be built in Jerusalem before the Second Coming. We also know that a temple will be built in Jackson County before the Savior comes. Question: will the temple in Jerusalem have to be built and dedicated under the authority and supervision of the Melchizedek priesthood? Or will unbelieving Jews find some way of building a real temple without authority from God? We know that a temple is just a building until it has been dedicated by the priesthood. Will that rule still hold in Jerusalem before the Second Coming. I think we have been here before. It's a good subject. I say that the Jews can't build a temple that the Lord will accept. A temple must be built and consecrated to the Lord Jesus Christ and the Jews cannot do that. The temple in Jerusalem will be built by the LDS church for in behalf of Mormon Jews. The LDS church is the only people under the heavens that can perform such a work. To think that the Jews will build a temple outside of the authority of the Mormons is just like saying the Jehovah's Witnesses can do so too. There is no scriptural reference to support such an idea. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Canada proposes a new metric measure: the pei :-)
Greater love hath no province than this, that he giveth up his humble ego so as to make Toronto look big Tongue-in-cheek argument that the pei become a new unit, from a professor who lives in Anne of Green Gablesland, the Island, the home of Confederation, and our equivalent to New Jersey when it comes to comparative land measure: http://www.globeandmail.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/PEstory/TGAM/20021024/COVISION/Comment/comment/comment_temp/1/1/4/ -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
[ZION] Canada followers and bagpipe lovers/haters :-)
Here's your little second-hand chuckle for the day.
Ah, I feel sorry for those who can't get CBC Radio One. As I type this
I'm listening to a Madly Off in All Directions* concert the
Saskatchewan comedian John Elliott is giving in Pictou (pick-toe, not
pick-too), Nova Scotia, heart of bagpipe country (during tourist season
a real piper pipes you across the NB-NS border). He's been doing
imitations (like a British cop car turning corners. You have to be
there). But he says when he flew out to Halifax, the closest major
airport, he was going through security and another Nova Scotian was
ahead of him and got stopped because he had a fish hook in his carry-on
baggage, and yet they let him on with his pipes. Which is capable of
inflicting more pain, I ask you?
The highlight was an attempt to get the audience to do the guitar part
(with da da da singing) and he did the banjo part of Duelling Banjos
from Deliverance. Absolutely hilarious (and he's pretty good on the
pipes, too). He said he realized it was unusual for a prairie boy to
play the pipes, but his Dad made him learn. Brett had wanted to learn
the electric guitar and play in a rock band but his Dad nixed the idea.
Too noisy, he said. ;-)
Pipers were a necessary part of highland regiments during the war. They
drew fire away from the guys with rifles. Anything to shut them up
Now he's doing whale calls on the bagpipes with the sound going through
a reverb. Actually very, very good, and funny, too. I wish I was there
actually watching.
...and now the Bagpipe Blues.
I can't take it anymore. Ay hae to goo poot on me Amazin' Grrrace
Marching Bands Rrrregatta ('alifax '87) CD...
*taken from a famous humourous story by Stephen Leacock, the Canadian
counterpart to Mark Twain/Will Rogers, who was actually an academic in
his day job as a prof teaching economics and poli sci.
--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland
We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and
deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences
have been properly debated
To think of the future and wait was merely
another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just
an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a
question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action.
Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The
Peloponessian Wars
Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the
author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the
authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author
may be associated.
/
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/// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html ///
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Re: [ZION] Figure the Odds
By the time everyone reads this you'll already know that arrests have been made in the Washington sniper case. Let's hope they've got 'em. -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] The Jerusalem Temple
Dan: We might be in for a surprise here. The key, I think, is in the actual consecration of the temple. The Jews will probably build it, as a temple,... they won't have the authority to consecrate it, but the actual construction could be done in the faith that God will provide the means once it's accomplished Sorry, but Bruce R McConkie said otherwise and I trust his judgment as final in this matter. Now all we have to do is sit back and see how the apostle's words will be verified. Otherwise, Bruce R McConkie didn't know what he was talking about and we could just as well get our advice from a Baptist preacher on this matter. BTW, was Elder McConkie rich too? ;-) Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] High Priests
Stephen, You give some nice definitions, but can you show where these definitions come from? I agree that the term high priest can have more than one meaning, but there are many Church leaders who would disagree with your Alma 13 assessment, and say that those were, indeed, high priests in the modern sense as you so put it. I say that the term is an ancient one, that we were foreordained as high priests, according to Alma. I use Occam's Razor on this, as your definition requires a twisting of terms (or redefinition, anyway). If Alma says faithful men were foreordained as high priests, why can't you accept it as it is written? I mean, there are different MP titles given in the BoM, even though I grant they aren't exactly the same as we have today (obviously teacher was an office in the MP for the Nephites). And are you trying to tell me that Abraham's desire to be a high priest just means he wanted to hold the MP? Why didn't he just say he desired to be a priesthood holder, then? Why do we have to twist his terms, when they are clear enough without redefining them? Finally, we are told that there will be an ordination to become a god, that we will be set apart as kings and priests. Since you already hold the MP as an elder, why must one be reordained a priest? BTW, I'm not teaching false doctrine. It may not be official doctrine of the Church, but it isn't rejected out of hand, either (except, of course, by you). K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Stephen: 1. The lead, or head, or high, priest of a group of ecumenical authorities. Thus, Alma was high priest over the land, meaning he was the head of the priests; similarly, Aaron, though not in possession of the higher Priesthood, was still a high priest, since he was the leader. 2. Any holder of the high Priesthood may properly be referred to as a high priest, in the sense that he is a priest (i.e. a holder of the Priesthood) after the order of Melchizedek. Thus it is that Alma calls those who hold the higher Priesthood high priests in Alma 13:9. 3. Specifically, in modern days a high priest is an office in the Melchizedek Priesthood, one that has certain duties assigned to it, normally relating to administrative duties. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Calling of Stake Presidents
Paul and others, just to let you know the process for the calling of a new stake president: The General Authorities arrive, and they first interview the current stake presidency and high council, then the bishops, then other high priests in the stake, etc. The GAs don't ask to see the persons with the highest salaries. In fact, it isn't a consideration. Usually, they know who it is as soon as the person steps into the room, as the Spirit tells them who it should be. If anyone considers the finances, it must be the Lord, because the GAs don't ask anyone about their finances until after they are called (if at all). This same thing happens in calling bishops and branch presidents. I just saw our stake presidency call a branch president who has never been in a presidency before. He's been active for about 5 years now, and only married a year ago (he's 50 years old), with a warehouse job. Yet the spirit he has and the strength he brings to the unit will greatly bless the branch. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] kings and priests
And with reference to all others who also receive the Melchizedek Priesthood, the scripture saith: And all those who are ordained unto this priesthood are made like unto the Son of God, abiding a priest continually. (JST, Heb. 7:3.) That is to say, they will be kings and priests forever; their priesthood will continue to all eternity; they will have eternal life. (Priesthood session, Saturday, October 1, 1977) Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] James' ossuary
Why? There's no evidence that he's resurrected. The James that ordained Joseph Smith was James the Greater, brother of John the Apostle. This James is brother of Jesus, who converted after the resurrection of Christ, and became the bishop of Jerusalem, as well as author of the book of James. For all we know, he's still in the Spirit World working Well, who knows? Wasn't Moroni resurrected? I kind of figured that saints prior to the great apostasy have been resurrected. Then again I recall St Paul speaking of the resurrection in a far future tense and connected it with the second coming. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] High Priest
Stephen Beecroft: -Larry- Keys, where needed, are given to the person set apart for a calling. He only holds those keys until he is released. How about that? That's directly opposite to what a bishop told me years back. Thanks for the clarification. ___ You're welcome. It came from the Handbook, which I don't think has changed in this regard. Larry Jackson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] High Priests
-Gary- You give some nice definitions, but can you show where these definitions come from? Mostly from the scriptures themselves. I am pretty sure that the Bible never explicitly specifies that Enos was Adam's grandson, but the meaning is clear enough that I can say that anyway. Similarly, Alma's meaning is not easily mistaken. I agree that the term high priest can have more than one meaning, but there are many Church leaders who would disagree with your Alma 13 assessment, and say that those were, indeed, high priests in the modern sense as you so put it. Name one. For my part, I name Elder Hilbig of the Seventy, who used the same gloss (if you care to call it such) as I have when he said last year in general conference: The prophet Alma explained that men ordained to the Melchizedek Priesthood on earth have been 'called and prepared from the foundation of the world according to the foreknowledge of God, on account of their exceeding faith and good works; in the first place being left to choose good or evil; therefore they having chosen good, and exercising exceedingly great faith, are called with a holy calling' (Alma 13:3). (I might also quote any number of other general authorities, e.g. Elder Maxwell, who in April 1986 general conference also followed this gloss, saying: In fact, we learn that all faithful men of the priesthood were 'called and prepared from the foundation of the world' (Alma 13:3)...; or the reference in Elder Nelson's October 1987 conference talk: Scriptures also relate that the Lord God foreordained priests prepared from the foundation of the world according to his foreknowledge. Thus, our calling to the holy priesthood was foreseen before we were born (see Alma 13:1-5). But, I won't bother.) I say that the term is an ancient one, No one disputes that the term high priest is ancient. that we were foreordained as high priests, according to Alma. No one disputes this, either. The dispute is Alma's meaning: I (and apparently the general authorities) say this means a Melchizedek Priesthood holder, while you say it only refers to those who hold the office of high priest. I use Occam's Razor on this, as your definition requires a twisting of terms (or redefinition, anyway). Perhaps you should tell Elders Maxwell, Nelson, and Hilbig about Occam's razor, so they can get their acts together. If Alma says faithful men were foreordained as high priests, why can't you accept it as it is written? I do accept it **as it is written**, Gary. In my view, it is you who does not accept it as written, insisting instead on applying your anachronistic definition. Remember, the office of high priest did not exist at the time Joseph Smith translated Alma's words. I mean, there are different MP titles given in the BoM, even though I grant they aren't exactly the same as we have today (obviously teacher was an office in the MP for the Nephites). Though this is off the main thread, it's an interesting side thread. I don't agree that teacher was a Melchizedek Priesthood office for the Nephites; the Melchizedek Priesthood was not generally held among the Jews, so I don't see why it would have been generally held among the Nephites, who were after all Jews and who were therefore under the law of Moses. If teacher was a Priesthood office, I expect it pertained to the Aaronic Priesthood; however, my supposition is that it was not a Priesthood office at all, but more like what we today would call a calling. In other words, a teacher was simply one who was authorized to teach. And are you trying to tell me that Abraham's desire to be a high priest just means he wanted to hold the MP? Yes. This is *exactly* what I'm saying. Why didn't he just say he desired to be a priesthood holder, then? He did. He said that he wanted to be a holder of the Priesthood of the patriarchs, the high Priesthood. That is, he wanted to be a high priest. That's not a Priesthood office, it's a holder of the Priesthood. Why do we have to twist his terms, when they are clear enough without redefining them? Because you are using an anachronistic application of the terms. Finally, we are told that there will be an ordination to become a god, that we will be set apart as kings and priests. Since you already hold the MP as an elder, why must one be reordained a priest? Let me turn the question back on you. Since you already hold the office of high priest, why must you be reordained a priest? Or are you suggesting that, as a high priest, you have no further need to be ordained a king and priest in the eternities, because you've already received all you need? BTW, I'm not teaching false doctrine. Nor did I say you were. I said that if the doctrine you preach were taught (note the subjunctive) as gospel, it would be false doctrine. I assume you are not teaching this speculation as gospel, so therefore it's not false doctrine. It's just speculation --
RE: [ZION] High Priests
Gary, all this side discussion about Alma 13 and such is interesting enough, and I'm happy enough to continue it -- though I suspect that, upon review of the relevant teachings and a careful rereading of Alma's words, you will agree that Alma 13 is much more inclusive than you've been thinking, and that it in fact applies to all Melchizedek Priesthood holders, not simply those who hold the administrative Priesthood office of high priest. But the central question remains: Where do you derive your doctrine that all men must eventually hold the Melchizedek Priesthood office of high priest in order to receive exaltation? That's the genesis of this thread, and I have yet to see any evidence that this doctrine exists in holy writ, or that it is taught by, approved by, or even believed by the general authorities. Stephen / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] High Priest
Stephen Beecroft: -Larry- You're welcome. It came from the Handbook, which I don't think has changed in this regard. I wish I could find that bishop and ask him for a clarification. I am sure he had (and read) the GHI, and I am also sure that he would never intentionally have passed along such a blunder. Either I misunderstood him (possible, but it seemed pretty clear at the time), or else he had a massive brain lapse, or just said one thing when he meant another. ___ He may have meant the ordination of bishop, or it could just as easily have been the brain lapse. I've had lots of those, both as a bishop and in almost every other calling I've had. [grin] Just before I was set apart the second time to be bishop, the stake president got out the Handbook and looked to make sure he didn't need to ordain me again. I always preferred to look in the Handbook beforehand, so that I would already know the answer. But that was just my particular style. It works just as well either way. The problems often come when somebody doesn't look. [smile] Larry Jackson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Calling of Stake Presidents
Paul Osborne: Right. The Lord is behind the whole thing. That is what I have been saying all along. ___ You have been taking lessons from John, haven't you! :-) On one occasion I watched visiting general authorities interview well into the evening looking for a new stake president. They finally found him, the 2nd counselor of a branch in a far-off corner of the stake. On another occasion, the visiting authority got up on Sunday morning and said he hadn't found the new stake president. A man who was out of town was called a week later. In bishopric meeting one morning, we selected a new Relief Society president. The bishop said he would call her during the day so she could be sustained right away. I conducted sacrament meeting that afternoon. When it was time to present the business, I asked the bishop how the call had gone. He said he had totally forgotten to visit with the sister. After sacrament meeting, we met again to review the list of names under consideration. We had left one name off the list. She was sustained the following week and served marvelously for many years. As a branch president conducting sacrament meeting, I once sustained the wrong person to be Sunday School president. He appeared startled when I presented his name, but after he thought about it for a few seconds, he raised his hand to sustain himself. When I sat down, my counselors pointed out that I had called someone else to that calling, not the man sustained. I met the other man as he returned from a business trip that evening, explained what had happened, and extended a different calling to him. He was relieved. He said he had been willing to serve and had accepted the Sunday School call, but thought he would do much better in the new calling. He did. And so did the man who was actually sustained. And then there are some of the callings I have had. The Lord does have a sense of humor. Larry Jackson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
