RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
I have no idea. -Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 19, 2004 8:29 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Vote Now! What laws do you think? At 06:04 PM 3/19/2004, you wrote: What laws? -Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 19, 2004 8:15 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ZION] Vote Now! At 02:02 PM 3/19/2004, you wrote: Gays and lesbians should stay in the closet. A. Strongly agree B. Agree C. Undecided D. Disagree E. Strongly Disagree If the laws were strictly enforced, as they were in the days of the people of Nephi, they would have to stay in the closet--to avoid the penalty of the law. -- Steven Montgomery . . . the laws of the land were exceedingly strict--Jarom 1:5 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- /// /// /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// /// // // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
How about the Law of Moses (Jarom 1:5)? Contained within the law of Moses are many commandments, among them this one: (Old Testament | Leviticus 18:22) Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. The penalty, for unrepentant sinners was death: (Old Testament | Leviticus 20:13) If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. -- Steven Montgomery At 03:18 AM 3/20/2004, you wrote: I have no idea. -Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 19, 2004 8:29 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Vote Now! What laws do you think? At 06:04 PM 3/19/2004, you wrote: What laws? -Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 19, 2004 8:15 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ZION] Vote Now! At 02:02 PM 3/19/2004, you wrote: Gays and lesbians should stay in the closet. A. Strongly agree B. Agree C. Undecided D. Disagree E. Strongly Disagree If the laws were strictly enforced, as they were in the days of the people of Nephi, they would have to stay in the closet--to avoid the penalty of the law. -- Steven Montgomery . . . the laws of the land were exceedingly strict--Jarom 1:5 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- /// /// /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// /// // // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Steven Montgomery html a href=http://www.stoptheftaa.org/?af=linktous3; img border=0 src=http://www.stoptheftaa.org/_images/linktous/sftaalogosmall.jpg; width=406 height=100/a /html http://www.stoptheftaa.org // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
Ah yes, and stone to death adulterers too. Cast that first stone, Steven. -Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2004 9:19 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Vote Now! How about the Law of Moses (Jarom 1:5)? Contained within the law of Moses are many commandments, among them this one: (Old Testament | Leviticus 18:22) Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. The penalty, for unrepentant sinners was death: (Old Testament | Leviticus 20:13) If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. -- Steven Montgomery At 03:18 AM 3/20/2004, you wrote: I have no idea. -Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 19, 2004 8:29 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Vote Now! What laws do you think? At 06:04 PM 3/19/2004, you wrote: What laws? -Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 19, 2004 8:15 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ZION] Vote Now! At 02:02 PM 3/19/2004, you wrote: Gays and lesbians should stay in the closet. A. Strongly agree B. Agree C. Undecided D. Disagree E. Strongly Disagree If the laws were strictly enforced, as they were in the days of the people of Nephi, they would have to stay in the closet--to avoid the penalty of the law. -- Steven Montgomery . . . the laws of the land were exceedingly strict--Jarom 1:5 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- /// /// /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// /// // // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- /// /// /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// /// // -- Steven Montgomery html a href=http://www.stoptheftaa.org/?af=linktous3; img border=0 src=http://www.stoptheftaa.org/_images/linktous/sftaalo gosmall.jpg width=406 height=100/a /html http://www.stoptheftaa.org // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
Hey, all l did was point out the penalty of the law--in the days of Moses and of the people in the Book of Mormon. Since we don't live under a theocratic government, death penalties for sabbath breaking and adultery does seem to be going way too far. Still, in most of the states of the union there used to be laws on the books against both Sabbath breakers and adulterers--perhaps we ought to start enforcing them again. What do you think the penalty ought to be? Or should we just turn a blind eye and let people ruin themselves in their own iniquity? -- Steven Montgomery At 09:04 AM 3/20/2004, you wrote: Ah yes, and stone to death adulterers too. Cast that first stone, Steven. -Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2004 9:19 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Vote Now! How about the Law of Moses (Jarom 1:5)? Contained within the law of Moses are many commandments, among them this one: (Old Testament | Leviticus 18:22) Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. The penalty, for unrepentant sinners was death: (Old Testament | Leviticus 20:13) If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. -- Steven Montgomery At 03:18 AM 3/20/2004, you wrote: I have no idea. -Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 19, 2004 8:29 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Vote Now! What laws do you think? At 06:04 PM 3/19/2004, you wrote: What laws? -Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 19, 2004 8:15 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ZION] Vote Now! At 02:02 PM 3/19/2004, you wrote: Gays and lesbians should stay in the closet. A. Strongly agree B. Agree C. Undecided D. Disagree E. Strongly Disagree If the laws were strictly enforced, as they were in the days of the people of Nephi, they would have to stay in the closet--to avoid the penalty of the law. -- Steven Montgomery . . . the laws of the land were exceedingly strict--Jarom 1:5 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- /// /// /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// /// // // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- /// /// /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// /// // -- Steven Montgomery html a href=http://www.stoptheftaa.org/?af=linktous3; img border=0 src=http://www.stoptheftaa.org/_images/linktous/sftaalo gosmall.jpg width=406 height=100/a /html http://www.stoptheftaa.org // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
I think Christ provided the answer, don't you? -Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2004 12:48 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Vote Now! Hey, all l did was point out the penalty of the law--in the days of Moses and of the people in the Book of Mormon. Since we don't live under a theocratic government, death penalties for sabbath breaking and adultery does seem to be going way too far. Still, in most of the states of the union there used to be laws on the books against both Sabbath breakers and adulterers--perhaps we ought to start enforcing them again. What do you think the penalty ought to be? Or should we just turn a blind eye and let people ruin themselves in their own iniquity? -- Steven Montgomery At 09:04 AM 3/20/2004, you wrote: Ah yes, and stone to death adulterers too. Cast that first stone, Steven. -Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2004 9:19 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Vote Now! How about the Law of Moses (Jarom 1:5)? Contained within the law of Moses are many commandments, among them this one: (Old Testament | Leviticus 18:22) Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. The penalty, for unrepentant sinners was death: (Old Testament | Leviticus 20:13) If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. -- Steven Montgomery At 03:18 AM 3/20/2004, you wrote: I have no idea. -Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 19, 2004 8:29 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Vote Now! What laws do you think? At 06:04 PM 3/19/2004, you wrote: What laws? -Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 19, 2004 8:15 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ZION] Vote Now! At 02:02 PM 3/19/2004, you wrote: Gays and lesbians should stay in the closet. A. Strongly agree B. Agree C. Undecided D. Disagree E. Strongly Disagree If the laws were strictly enforced, as they were in the days of the people of Nephi, they would have to stay in the closet--to avoid the penalty of the law. -- Steven Montgomery . . . the laws of the land were exceedingly strict--Jarom 1:5 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- /// /// /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// /// // // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- /// /// /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// /// // -- Steven Montgomery html a href=http://www.stoptheftaa.org/?af=linktous3; img border=0 src=http://www.stoptheftaa.org/_images/linktous/sftaalo gosmall.jpg width=406 height=100/a /html http://www.stoptheftaa.org // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- /// /// /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// /// // // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// /
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
That's somewhat of a fallacious generalization, John. Yes, it is difficult and it takes time. But you know what, in business management terms, we see change as requiring time. When a business changes its culture, it requires years for the complete change over. Behaviorists will tell you that normally 20-30% will quickly adapt to the change, The middle 30% adapt over several months to a year, with a large number of stragglers that take a long time. Then there are those who never adapt, who end up leaving the company for another with a culture similar to what they used to know. So it is in society. For the Western nations (English speaking primarily), they took centuries to adapt. But Japan and South Korea are awesome democracies (non-English speaking) that have learned the values of freedom over a period of less than 50 years. A long time when one thinks of how impatient Americans are, but rather quick in geological terms. Why did Moses keep Israel in the wilderness for 40 years? It would take that long for those with centuries-long slave mentality to be replaced by a generation of people with a new non-slave culture and mentality. So it is with nations. It might take Iraq 40-50 years to switch over to a strong democracy. So what? It means our grandchildren's children will live in a world with one more free nation that isn't run by radical kooks. Cultures can change. It takes time. But I have a long term view of these things. I'm glad our forefathers also had such a long term vision, otherwise they might have given up at Valley Forge or when the Articles of Confederation failed. Gary Smith John W. Redelfs wrote: Tom Matkin wrote: The USA and her allies will successfully establish democratic rule in Iraq. A. Certainly B. Probably C. Maybe D. Unlikely E. Certainly not E. Certainly not. Democratic rule is a privilege that must be earned. The people of Iraq cannot have it given to them or established for them any more than I can give someone else my own character or discipline. All the USA can do is try to improve the circumstances for the growth of democracy. In most cases those interventions seem to about as successful as premature efforts interventions to help a chick hatch. I strongly agree with you, Tom. Freedom, and the western democratic traditions that establish and maintain freedom are a cultural phenomenon, not something that can be imposed from above. The roots of freedom in the west go back in the English speaking cultures to medieval Britain. That is why we have democracy in the USA, Canada, Australia, and a few other places. That is also why democracy is so tentative on the European continent, and almost nonexistent in non western nations. Democracy is a mind set that is engendered in families that understand and value fundamental, God-given human rights. Those families are almost all English speaking. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === I know of nothing in the history of the Church or in the history of the world to compare with our present circumstances. Nothing happened in Sodom and Gomorrah which exceeds the wickedness and depravity which surrounds us now. --President Boyd K. Packer, February 28, 2004 === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR Gerald (Gary) Smith geraldsmith@ juno.com http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Musical Instruments Survey
So, Tom, are you saying there is a link between playing the harmonica and being on death row? Maybe we should continue teaching kids to play the recorder so we don't raise a generation of harmonica playing thugs! ;-) As for me, I sing tenor. I've sung in two temple dedication choirs, in fact. I've tinkered with piano and guitar just a little bit, but not very good on either. I think anyone can play harmonica, since I've been known to play one in the past. Oh, and I love playing the recorder, which is probably the main thing that's kept me out of prison all these years. Gary Smith Tom Matkin wrote: -Original Message- From: John W. Redelfs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: March 19, 2004 2:37 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [ZION] Musical Instruments Survey How many of you play a musical instrument? How well do you play? I'm curious about the musical makeup of the Zion list. John W. Redelfs sings well, plays the piano fairly, and the violin poorly. I sing a bit. Bass in my quartet, and I sometimes have to handle the tenor when that guy doesn't show up but it's scary when I do. I used to play the flute and even blew the saxophone a time or two in a dance band that I played with. I love to beat on my guitar, but I have peripheral neuropathy in my hands and arm and I can't do it for long or without suffering the consequences. I was never any good at it. I love the harmonica, straight and blues. I'm not good but that doesn't stop me and with the blues harp who really knows the difference? I think they should throw away all those recorders in schools and teach the harmonica. Doesn't the USA have about a million people in jail at any one time? They could all be enjoying themselves playing the harmonica if they had been taught in grade school. Do you ever hear anyone on death row playing the recorder? Tom Gerald (Gary) Smith geraldsmith@ juno.com http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
Ron, why is it that you attack the commandments of God like this? Christ, to this day, condemns sexual impurity, even though he doesn't demand us to stone people to death. Some judgments MUST be made, otherwise you end up with no law, no order, only anarchy. Lehi taught there is right and wrong, up and down, light and darkness; that without the opposites there would be no God. As it is, God has given a law: marriage and sex between man and woman who are legally and lawfully married. Never has God given even a little inference that he would change his mind on either adultery or homosexuality. Christ said what he said because the men involved were evil men. Each was guilty of adultery, probably with the accused woman (why else would they just happen to catch her but no man to take before Jesus?). They were being hypocrites, and he was pointing out their sin to them. Now, he told the woman to go and sin no more. He recognized her sin, and as Savior, gave her one more chance. That was his right as Judge. Since we aren't Christ, the Lawgiver, we must judge as best we can with the guidance God gives us. This means we must have laws on the books that ensure society's safety (no murder, no robbery, no cheating, and others that happen to be in the 10 Commandments - which happen to be more of the Mosaic Law you happened to condemn on homosexuality). Either Christ is for homosexuality, or he is against it. From what I've read in the scriptures (including Paul's words in the New Testament), and writings of modern prophets (note Pres Kimball in Miracle of Forgiveness, or the current missionary requirements of never having had a homosexual event) I'd say you are speaking with a forked tongue in attacking Steven. Either you believe the consistent teachings of the prophets, or you don't. Twisting Christ's words in one event in the scriptures, which He was using to condemn the wicked, only shows your troubling use of the scriptures to fit a different schema than the prophets have proclaimed. Steven mentioned the severity of the penalty for homosexuality to emphasize God's displeasure with it. He didn't say he agreed with the death penalty. As it is, most states have at one time or another had (or have) laws on the books against adultery and homosexuality. Yes, at one time some of these laws even included the death penalty for homosexuality. The reality is, homosexuality, whether in the closet or out in the open is a sin. In either situation, it denigrates and harms society. It will destroy society if it gets hold and full acceptance, just as we learn of Sodom and Gomorrah and others who have lived lives of debauchery. We cannot accept it, even in a tolerant PC way; as that is opening the door for accepting all sin. Gary Smith Ron Scott wrote: Ah yes, and stone to death adulterers too. Cast that first stone, Steven. -Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2004 9:19 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Vote Now! How about the Law of Moses (Jarom 1:5)? Contained within the law of Moses are many commandments, among them this one: (Old Testament | Leviticus 18:22) Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. The penalty, for unrepentant sinners was death: (Old Testament | Leviticus 20:13) If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. -- Steven Montgomery At 03:18 AM 3/20/2004, you wrote: I have no idea. -Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 19, 2004 8:29 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Vote Now! What laws do you think? At 06:04 PM 3/19/2004, you wrote: What laws? -Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 19, 2004 8:15 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ZION] Vote Now! At 02:02 PM 3/19/2004, you wrote: Gays and lesbians should stay in the closet. A. Strongly agree B. Agree C. Undecided D. Disagree E. Strongly Disagree If the laws were strictly enforced, as they were in the days of the people of Nephi, they would have to stay in the closet--to avoid the penalty of the law. -- Steven Montgomery . . . the laws of the land were exceedingly strict--Jarom 1:5 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- /// /// /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// ///
RE: [ZION] Musical Instruments Survey
I play the Piano Carinet and Sing. None as well as I should, but I'm taking Clarinet lessons again. From: John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [ZION] Musical Instruments Survey Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 12:36:38 -0900 How many of you play a musical instrument? How well do you play? I'm curious about the musical makeup of the Zion list. John W. Redelfs sings well, plays the piano fairly, and the violin poorly. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / _ Check out MSN PC Safety Security to help ensure your PC is protected and safe. http://specials.msn.com/msn/security.asp // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
Actually, think the three of you -- Gary, Tom and John-- are saying the same thing. And, I agree. I think it's important that we take the long view on Iraq, regard it as a beachhead in the Middle East for giving root to Democracy, however limited/modified it may be at first. RBS -Original Message- From: Gerald Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2004 1:44 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Vote Now! That's somewhat of a fallacious generalization, John. Yes, it is difficult and it takes time. But you know what, in business management terms, we see change as requiring time. When a business changes its culture, it requires years for the complete change over. Behaviorists will tell you that normally 20-30% will quickly adapt to the change, The middle 30% adapt over several months to a year, with a large number of stragglers that take a long time. Then there are those who never adapt, who end up leaving the company for another with a culture similar to what they used to know. So it is in society. For the Western nations (English speaking primarily), they took centuries to adapt. But Japan and South Korea are awesome democracies (non-English speaking) that have learned the values of freedom over a period of less than 50 years. A long time when one thinks of how impatient Americans are, but rather quick in geological terms. Why did Moses keep Israel in the wilderness for 40 years? It would take that long for those with centuries-long slave mentality to be replaced by a generation of people with a new non-slave culture and mentality. So it is with nations. It might take Iraq 40-50 years to switch over to a strong democracy. So what? It means our grandchildren's children will live in a world with one more free nation that isn't run by radical kooks. Cultures can change. It takes time. But I have a long term view of these things. I'm glad our forefathers also had such a long term vision, otherwise they might have given up at Valley Forge or when the Articles of Confederation failed. Gary Smith John W. Redelfs wrote: Tom Matkin wrote: The USA and her allies will successfully establish democratic rule in Iraq. A. Certainly B. Probably C. Maybe D. Unlikely E. Certainly not E. Certainly not. Democratic rule is a privilege that must be earned. The people of Iraq cannot have it given to them or established for them any more than I can give someone else my own character or discipline. All the USA can do is try to improve the circumstances for the growth of democracy. In most cases those interventions seem to about as successful as premature efforts interventions to help a chick hatch. I strongly agree with you, Tom. Freedom, and the western democratic traditions that establish and maintain freedom are a cultural phenomenon, not something that can be imposed from above. The roots of freedom in the west go back in the English speaking cultures to medieval Britain. That is why we have democracy in the USA, Canada, Australia, and a few other places. That is also why democracy is so tentative on the European continent, and almost nonexistent in non western nations. Democracy is a mind set that is engendered in families that understand and value fundamental, God-given human rights. Those families are almost all English speaking. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === I know of nothing in the history of the Church or in the history of the world to compare with our present circumstances. Nothing happened in Sodom and Gomorrah which exceeds the wickedness and depravity which surrounds us now. --President Boyd K. Packer, February 28, 2004 === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR Gerald (Gary) Smith geraldsmith@ juno.com http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
How did I attack the commandments of God? I merely commented on Steven's rather harsh and outdated penalties. He didn't ask whether to comment on what was forbidden by the Lord did he? I did not *attack* Steven and I certainly did not attack Christ's teachings. At the moment, the USA is not a theocracy. All of us have pledged before God to sustain, honor and obey the law of the land and to be subjects to kings, magistrates, rulers etc. I am so bound, so are you. Neverthless, I know what God teaches and what he doesn't. I do not need the government to teach me what's right in the eyes of God and what is not. It's better if the laws correspond. But if the don't, it's not likely twist my trousers into a knot You are absolutely correct: Christ is our judge. You are not mine nor am I yours. I do not not know your mind nor your particular circumstances and history. Neither do you know mine. Ron -Original Message- From: Gerald Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2004 2:18 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Vote Now! Ron, why is it that you attack the commandments of God like this? Christ, to this day, condemns sexual impurity, even though he doesn't demand us to stone people to death. Some judgments MUST be made, otherwise you end up with no law, no order, only anarchy. Lehi taught there is right and wrong, up and down, light and darkness; that without the opposites there would be no God. As it is, God has given a law: marriage and sex between man and woman who are legally and lawfully married. Never has God given even a little inference that he would change his mind on either adultery or homosexuality. Christ said what he said because the men involved were evil men. Each was guilty of adultery, probably with the accused woman (why else would they just happen to catch her but no man to take before Jesus?). They were being hypocrites, and he was pointing out their sin to them. Now, he told the woman to go and sin no more. He recognized her sin, and as Savior, gave her one more chance. That was his right as Judge. Since we aren't Christ, the Lawgiver, we must judge as best we can with the guidance God gives us. This means we must have laws on the books that ensure society's safety (no murder, no robbery, no cheating, and others that happen to be in the 10 Commandments - which happen to be more of the Mosaic Law you happened to condemn on homosexuality). Either Christ is for homosexuality, or he is against it. From what I've read in the scriptures (including Paul's words in the New Testament), and writings of modern prophets (note Pres Kimball in Miracle of Forgiveness, or the current missionary requirements of never having had a homosexual event) I'd say you are speaking with a forked tongue in attacking Steven. Either you believe the consistent teachings of the prophets, or you don't. Twisting Christ's words in one event in the scriptures, which He was using to condemn the wicked, only shows your troubling use of the scriptures to fit a different schema than the prophets have proclaimed. Steven mentioned the severity of the penalty for homosexuality to emphasize God's displeasure with it. He didn't say he agreed with the death penalty. As it is, most states have at one time or another had (or have) laws on the books against adultery and homosexuality. Yes, at one time some of these laws even included the death penalty for homosexuality. The reality is, homosexuality, whether in the closet or out in the open is a sin. In either situation, it denigrates and harms society. It will destroy society if it gets hold and full acceptance, just as we learn of Sodom and Gomorrah and others who have lived lives of debauchery. We cannot accept it, even in a tolerant PC way; as that is opening the door for accepting all sin. Gary Smith Ron Scott wrote: Ah yes, and stone to death adulterers too. Cast that first stone, Steven. -Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2004 9:19 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Vote Now! How about the Law of Moses (Jarom 1:5)? Contained within the law of Moses are many commandments, among them this one: (Old Testament | Leviticus 18:22) Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. The penalty, for unrepentant sinners was death: (Old Testament | Leviticus 20:13) If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. -- Steven Montgomery At 03:18 AM 3/20/2004, you wrote: I have no idea. -Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 19, 2004 8:29 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Vote Now! What laws do you think? At 06:04 PM 3/19/2004, you wrote: What laws? -Original Message-
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
If he did then perhaps I'm just too blind to see. Perhaps you can enlighten me. -- Steven Montgomery At 11:10 AM 3/20/2004, you wrote: I think Christ provided the answer, don't you? -Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2004 12:48 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Vote Now! Hey, all l did was point out the penalty of the law--in the days of Moses and of the people in the Book of Mormon. Since we don't live under a theocratic government, death penalties for sabbath breaking and adultery does seem to be going way too far. Still, in most of the states of the union there used to be laws on the books against both Sabbath breakers and adulterers--perhaps we ought to start enforcing them again. What do you think the penalty ought to be? Or should we just turn a blind eye and let people ruin themselves in their own iniquity? -- Steven Montgomery At 09:04 AM 3/20/2004, you wrote: Ah yes, and stone to death adulterers too. Cast that first stone, Steven. -Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2004 9:19 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Vote Now! How about the Law of Moses (Jarom 1:5)? Contained within the law of Moses are many commandments, among them this one: (Old Testament | Leviticus 18:22) Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. The penalty, for unrepentant sinners was death: (Old Testament | Leviticus 20:13) If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. -- Steven Montgomery At 03:18 AM 3/20/2004, you wrote: I have no idea. -Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 19, 2004 8:29 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Vote Now! What laws do you think? At 06:04 PM 3/19/2004, you wrote: What laws? -Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 19, 2004 8:15 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ZION] Vote Now! At 02:02 PM 3/19/2004, you wrote: Gays and lesbians should stay in the closet. A. Strongly agree B. Agree C. Undecided D. Disagree E. Strongly Disagree If the laws were strictly enforced, as they were in the days of the people of Nephi, they would have to stay in the closet--to avoid the penalty of the law. -- Steven Montgomery . . . the laws of the land were exceedingly strict--Jarom 1:5 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- /// /// /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// /// // // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- /// /// /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// /// // -- Steven Montgomery html a href=http://www.stoptheftaa.org/?af=linktous3; img border=0 src=http://www.stoptheftaa.org/_images/linktous/sftaalo gosmall.jpg width=406 height=100/a /html http://www.stoptheftaa.org // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- /// /// /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// /// // // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// ///
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
I think you've got it right. The old laws are off the books. If they become laws again, they ought to be enforced. What do I think the penalty ought to be for Sabbath breaking? Dunno. Let me consult with my Jewish and SDA friends. Seriously, I don't recall Christ preaching death for any offense...well, murder perhaps (but I don't recall it). RBS -Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2004 6:42 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Vote Now! If he did then perhaps I'm just too blind to see. Perhaps you can enlighten me. -- Steven Montgomery At 11:10 AM 3/20/2004, you wrote: I think Christ provided the answer, don't you? -Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2004 12:48 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Vote Now! Hey, all l did was point out the penalty of the law--in the days of Moses and of the people in the Book of Mormon. Since we don't live under a theocratic government, death penalties for sabbath breaking and adultery does seem to be going way too far. Still, in most of the states of the union there used to be laws on the books against both Sabbath breakers and adulterers--perhaps we ought to start enforcing them again. What do you think the penalty ought to be? Or should we just turn a blind eye and let people ruin themselves in their own iniquity? -- Steven Montgomery At 09:04 AM 3/20/2004, you wrote: Ah yes, and stone to death adulterers too. Cast that first stone, Steven. -Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2004 9:19 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Vote Now! How about the Law of Moses (Jarom 1:5)? Contained within the law of Moses are many commandments, among them this one: (Old Testament | Leviticus 18:22) Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. The penalty, for unrepentant sinners was death: (Old Testament | Leviticus 20:13) If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. -- Steven Montgomery At 03:18 AM 3/20/2004, you wrote: I have no idea. -Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 19, 2004 8:29 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Vote Now! What laws do you think? At 06:04 PM 3/19/2004, you wrote: What laws? -Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 19, 2004 8:15 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ZION] Vote Now! At 02:02 PM 3/19/2004, you wrote: Gays and lesbians should stay in the closet. A. Strongly agree B. Agree C. Undecided D. Disagree E. Strongly Disagree If the laws were strictly enforced, as they were in the days of the people of Nephi, they would have to stay in the closet--to avoid the penalty of the law. -- Steven Montgomery . . . the laws of the land were exceedingly strict--Jarom 1:5 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- /// /// /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// /// // // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- /// /// /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// /// // -- Steven Montgomery html a href=http://www.stoptheftaa.org/?af=linktous3; img border=0 src=http://www.stoptheftaa.org/_images/linktous/sftaalo gosmall.jpg width=406 height=100/a /html http://www.stoptheftaa.org // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// /
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
RB Scott wrote: I think you've got it right. The old laws are off the books. If they become laws again, they ought to be enforced. What do I think the penalty ought to be for Sabbath breaking? Dunno. Let me consult with my Jewish and SDA friends. Seriously, I don't recall Christ preaching death for any offense...well, murder perhaps (but I don't recall it). According to official Mormon doctrine, Jesus Christ is the premortal Jehovah. If that is the case, then we know that Jesus Christ preached death for quite a few offenses. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
Hi Gary. My name's Jack, I'm the only son of the listowner. Since I advised him in writing the post you are responding to (I'm his history advisor), I was interested in your reply and decided to respond. Gerald Smith wrote: That's somewhat of a fallacious generalization, John. Yes, it is difficult and it takes time. But you know what, in business management terms, we see change as requiring time. snip business analogy This is interesting info, Gary, but I doubt that it applies to this discussion. Although business traditions are mercurial, cultural traditions tend to strengthen exponentially from generation to generation. The hand that rocks the cradle, etc. I find it highly doubtful that these traditions can be changed in a few years. Why didn't the Iraqis rise and destroy Saddam of their own accord? Because as a people, they were willing to resign themselves to his rule. They have been resigning themselves to autocrats for a long, long time. snip... Japan and South Korea are awesome democracies (non-English speaking) that have learned the values of freedom over a period of less than 50 years. We forced a democratic constitution upon Japan, literally at gunpoint, which they are already contemplating abandoning. Even now, the Japanese are happy to live with a degree of regimentation and control far beyond what we would find acceptable. Politics in Japan are not a populist exercise. Although they do vote, the Japanese people allow most of their politics to be decided behind closed doors. And I should add I'm basing this from mainstream sources, like Newsweek and U.S News World Report - not fringe publications like the New American. It might take Iraq 40-50 years to switch over to a strong democracy. So what? It means our grandchildren's children will live in a world with one more free nation that isn't run by radical kooks. Are you willing to occupy Iraq for 40-50 years, no matter the cost in lives and dollars? Because that's the only way I can see of achieving our goals. Even then, it would be impossible unless the Iraqis chose to change. Besides, are there _any_ Islamic nations that are not run by radical kooks? Was Saddam alone in persecuting the Kurds? Didn't the president of Maylasia recently release a diatribe against the vast Jewish conspiracy controlling the west? Did not Syria, Jordan and Egypt attempt to exterminate Israel only 31 years ago (supported by Saudi Arabia, I might add)? How does Saudi Arabia stand on human rights? How wide is suffrage in the Islamic world? Although it is true that Iraq may eventually switch over to a strong democracy, this will only result after a genuine, grassroots cultural shift. Such a shift has to come from within; our meddling can only hurt, not help such a process. A brief invasion will solve nothing. Cultures can change. It takes time. But I have a long term view of these things. I'm glad our forefathers also had such a long term vision, otherwise they might have given up at Valley Forge or when the Articles of Confederation failed. The heroes of the American Revolution were scions of a rich democratic tradition. The people of Iraq are inheritors of a factional, authoritarian tradition that we cannot hope to change by force. === It's not easy to juggle a pregnant wife and a troubled child, but somehow I managed to fit in eight hours of TV a day. - Homer Simpson // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
Gerald Smith wrote: It might take Iraq 40-50 years to switch over to a strong democracy. So what? It means our grandchildren's children will live in a world with one more free nation that isn't run by radical kooks. Hope springs eternal in the human breast, Man never is but always to be blest. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
Re: [ZION] Vote Now!
RB Scott wrote: Seriously, I don't recall Christ preaching death for any offense...well, murder perhaps (but I don't recall it). = Grampa Bill comments: But the Christ of the New Testament IS the Jehovah of the Old Testament and in those days with those people He most certainly enumerated a number of offenses for which the sentence was death. Love Y'all, Grampa Bill in Savannah With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine! // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
[ZION] Why the Iraqis Didn't Destroy Saddam (was: Vote Now!)
No, the current crop of Iraqis didn't rise and destroy Saddam because the brave ones who tried that more than a decade ago (when they thought we were going to continue all the way into Baghdad) were slaughtered. *jeep! ---Chet If ya thinks ya is right, ya deserfs credit - even if ya is wrong. --Gus Segar via Popeye - Original Message - From: Son of John W. Redelfs Why didn't the Iraqis rise and destroy Saddam of their own accord? Because as a people, they were willing to resign themselves to his rule. They have been resigning themselves to autocrats for a long, long time. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
-Original Message- From: Grampa Bill in Savannah [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2004 8:36 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ZION] Vote Now! RB Scott wrote: Seriously, I don't recall Christ preaching death for any offense...well, murder perhaps (but I don't recall it). Notwithstanding fairly twisted and bizarre interpretations, what Christ taught was forgiveness, not death. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
Re: [ZION] Vote Now!
Gays and lesbians should stay in the closet. Their choice. They should NOT be afraid to come out of the closet, nor should they expect to be accepted. In my own personal experience, those of my friends who came out of the closet remained my friends, and were counseled by me in love to change any dangerous personal behaviors they were engaging in. The one who took my advice, took it too late, and died of AIDS. Jon // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
Re: [ZION] Why the Iraqis Didn't Destroy Saddam (was: Vote Now!)
Watch The Patriot some time. The battles they had in that war were fought by two sides who had access to very similar weaponry. Things have changed a lot since then. Governments have access to stuff that is much more advanced than what the people have. The Iraqis didn't stand a chance of challenging Hussein. They had to be helped. Of course, this opens up the whole topic of the US and what we would have to go through if the US were to ever become a blood thirsty dictatorship. How could we defend ourselves against the US army if it ever came to it. I don't think we could. I think we would just simply lose. Maybe the second amendment is more important than we realize. No, the current crop of Iraqis didn't rise and destroy Saddam because the brave ones who tried that more than a decade ago (when they thought we were going to continue all the way into Baghdad) were slaughtered. *jeep! ---Chet If ya thinks ya is right, ya deserfs credit - even if ya is wrong. --Gus Segar via Popeye - Original Message - From: Son of John W. Redelfs Why didn't the Iraqis rise and destroy Saddam of their own accord? Because as a people, they were willing to resign themselves to his rule. They have been resigning themselves to autocrats for a long, long time. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Jonathan Scott // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
-Original Message- From: John W. Redelfs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, March 21, 2004 12:11 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Vote Now! RB Scott wrote: Seriously, I don't recall Christ preaching death for any offense...well, murder perhaps (but I don't recall it). Notwithstanding fairly twisted and bizarre interpretations, what Christ taught was forgiveness, not death. Forgiveness for the repentant only. That is what he taught then, and that is what he teaches now. We have to forgive all men, but he only forgives the repentant. --JWR Yep. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
