Re: [ZION] Sons of Perdition
At 07:57 PM 11/13/2003 -0500, St Jon wrote: If this were lds-poll, I would say that there was a third hell, something about Mass. and one of their Senators. Hey, what about us New Yorkers? Till the downtrodden // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Sons of Perdition
I don't think Dantes figured on that many layers of hell. Who would have known that NY would elect Hitlary, Schumer, and isn't there a Kennedy in there somewhere also? Gary Smith Elmer L. Fairbank wrote: At 07:57 PM 11/13/2003 -0500, St Jon wrote: If this were lds-poll, I would say that there was a third hell, something about Mass. and one of their Senators. Hey, what about us New Yorkers? Till the downtrodden Gerald (Gary) Smith geraldsmith@ juno.com http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Sons of Perdition
I love the way some of you apply gospel doctrine in your lives. Amazing. RBS -Original Message- From: Gerald Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, November 14, 2003 11:54 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Sons of Perdition I don't think Dantes figured on that many layers of hell. Who would have known that NY would elect Hitlary, Schumer, and isn't there a Kennedy in there somewhere also? Gary Smith Elmer L. Fairbank wrote: At 07:57 PM 11/13/2003 -0500, St Jon wrote: If this were lds-poll, I would say that there was a third hell, something about Mass. and one of their Senators. Hey, what about us New Yorkers? Till the downtrodden Gerald (Gary) Smith geraldsmith@ juno.com http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// // /// // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Sons of Perdition
-Ron- I love the way some of you apply gospel doctrine in your lives. Amazing. I've gotta tell you, Ron, that I've been thinking exactly the same thing while reading your posts to this list for the last week. Stephen // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Sons of Perdition
Ron, It was tongue in cheek. I guess I should have used an emoticon. Since Till was asking about New York, I used it as the center of the joke. Had it been in the South, I'd might have used Strom Thurmond Gary Ron Scott wrote: I love the way some of you apply gospel doctrine in your lives. Amazing. RBS -Original Message- From: Gerald Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, November 14, 2003 11:54 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Sons of Perdition I don't think Dantes figured on that many layers of hell. Who would have known that NY would elect Hitlary, Schumer, and isn't there a Kennedy in there somewhere also? Gary Smith Elmer L. Fairbank wrote: At 07:57 PM 11/13/2003 -0500, St Jon wrote: If this were lds-poll, I would say that there was a third hell, something about Mass. and one of their Senators. Hey, what about us New Yorkers? Till the downtrodden Gerald (Gary) Smith geraldsmith@ juno.com http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// // /// Gerald (Gary) Smith geraldsmith@ juno.com http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Sons of Perdition
Which is what makes having Ron around so fun. It's good for us to have more than one viewpoint, even if we don't agree. It should challenge us to consider and reconsider our personal ideas on things, to ensure we are standing on solid ground, or at least on ground that isn't too swampy. Gary Smith Stephen Beecroft wrote: -Ron- I love the way some of you apply gospel doctrine in your lives. Amazing. I've gotta tell you, Ron, that I've been thinking exactly the same thing while reading your posts to this list for the last week. Stephen Gerald (Gary) Smith geraldsmith@ juno.com http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Sons of Perdition
Gerald Smith wrote: Had it been in the South, I'd might have used Strom Thurmond Gary Ron Scott wrote: I love the way some of you apply gospel doctrine in your lives. Amazing. RBS -Original Message- From: Gerald Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, November 14, 2003 11:54 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Sons of Perdition I don't think Dantes figured on that many layers of hell. Who would have known that NY would elect Hitlary, Schumer, and isn't there a Kennedy in there somewhere also? === Grampa Bill comments: I'm not sure who said what to whom, but don't even think about putting the illustrious and much beloved Strom Thurmond in the same context with the Hildebeast, Chuckie, and the Chappaquiddick Kid. You don't want to go there... :-| Love y'all, Grampa Bill in Savannah // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Sons of Perdition
Gerald Smith wrote: It's good for us to have more than one viewpoint, even if we don't agree. It should challenge us to consider and reconsider our personal ideas on things, to ensure we are standing on solid ground, or at least on ground that isn't too swampy. Gary Smith === Grampa Bill asks: Is that swampy comment another swipe at Savannah? Down here, standing on swampy land is about our only option. Love y'all. Grampa Bill in Savannah (About twenty miles from Mort Walker's Camp Swampy, home of General Amos T. Halftrack, Major Greenbrass, Captain Scabbard, Lieutenant Fuzz, Sergeant Snorkel, and Private Beetle Bailey, not to forget America's sweetheart, Miss Buxley) // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Sons of Perdition
-Original Message- From: Stephen Beecroft [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, November 14, 2003 4:11 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Sons of Perdition -Ron- I love the way some of you apply gospel doctrine in your lives. Amazing. I've gotta tell you, Ron, that I've been thinking exactly the same thing while reading your posts to this list for the last week. Stephen Perhaps. I'd be interested in seeing examples of what you're talking about. But, unlike you guys, I make no pretense of being conventional. RBS // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Sons of Perdition
Okay/ -Original Message- From: Gerald Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, November 14, 2003 4:14 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Sons of Perdition Ron, It was tongue in cheek. I guess I should have used an emoticon. Since Till was asking about New York, I used it as the center of the joke. Had it been in the South, I'd might have used Strom Thurmond Gary Ron Scott wrote: I love the way some of you apply gospel doctrine in your lives. Amazing. RBS -Original Message- From: Gerald Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, November 14, 2003 11:54 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Sons of Perdition I don't think Dantes figured on that many layers of hell. Who would have known that NY would elect Hitlary, Schumer, and isn't there a Kennedy in there somewhere also? Gary Smith Elmer L. Fairbank wrote: At 07:57 PM 11/13/2003 -0500, St Jon wrote: If this were lds-poll, I would say that there was a third hell, something about Mass. and one of their Senators. Hey, what about us New Yorkers? Till the downtrodden Gerald (Gary) Smith geraldsmith@ juno.com http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// // /// Gerald (Gary) Smith geraldsmith@ juno.com http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// // /// // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Sons of Perdition
At 10:58 PM 11/12/2003 -0700, Sir Lew wrote: At 01:16 PM 11/12/2003, you wrote: Once Satan is loosed, he will gather an army from amongst those still living upon the earth. However, it will not be anywhere near the numbers he has already taken with him. In a world populated with 10 billion people, I would imagine his army would be in the millions at most. From my understanding and as Brother McConkie indicates This final great battle, in which evil spirits, mortal men, and resurrected personages all participate, will be the end of war as far as this earth is concernedI believe that the final battle includes these evil spirits or in other words the 1/3 of the host of heaven that was kicked out with Satan. If this is the case it surely would be more than millions. Wow, what a huge rumble! Get's the old Celtic/Norse blood riling just to think about it. Till // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Sons of Perdition
At 09:11 AM 11/13/2003 -0500, Uncle Ron wrote: Cool your fighting blood and freshen your synapses, Till. If Brother McConkie is right this will obviously be a war of words -- of good thinking/doing prevailing over evil. Otherwise, s'plain to me how one would go about slaying the a spirit, or one of the Three Nephites, for instance. Skewer them with the sword of truth. Gets 'em every time. (right in the gizzard) Till, oilin' up his sword and gettin' ready to roll // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Sons of Perdition
Personally, I think it will start as a war of words, then move on to violence. The wicked will not prevail, but that doesn't mean they don't make their attempts. For example, what is the logic in suicide/homicide bombing? Yes, you create terror, but you often lose more people than you take out. In wars past, Muslims in Libya and elsewhere were known to tie their legs back to their thigh, so they couldn't run from Hitler's tanks, while shooting with 19th century weapons. Logic isn't required for crazed men to start a violent overthrow. And when Satan gathers his force, they may not have the ability to win, but that may not stop them from thinking they can through violent efforts. Ragnarok, all over again Gary Elmer L. Fairbank wrote: At 09:11 AM 11/13/2003 -0500, Uncle Ron wrote: Cool your fighting blood and freshen your synapses, Till. If Brother McConkie is right this will obviously be a war of words -- of good thinking/doing prevailing over evil. Otherwise, s'plain to me how one would go about slaying the a spirit, or one of the Three Nephites, for instance. Skewer them with the sword of truth. Gets 'em every time. (right in the gizzard) Till, oilin' up his sword and gettin' ready to roll Gerald (Gary) Smith geraldsmith@ juno.com http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Sons of Perdition
RB Scott wrote: Cool your fighting blood and freshen your synapses, Till. If Brother McConkie is right this will obviously be a war of words -- of good thinking/doing prevailing over evil. Otherwise, s'plain to me how one would go about slaying the a spirit, or one of the Three Nephites, for instance. You lock them up in a prison, drape them in chains. In a hot war among immortals, the war has to be for prisoners. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Sons of Perdition
-Original Message- From: John W. Redelfs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 11:26 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Sons of Perdition RB Scott wrote: Cool your fighting blood and freshen your synapses, Till. If Brother McConkie is right this will obviously be a war of words -- of good thinking/doing prevailing over evil. Otherwise, s'plain to me how one would go about slaying the a spirit, or one of the Three Nephites, for instance. You lock them up in a prison, drape them in chains. In a hot war among immortals, the war has to be for prisoners. --JWR You forgot to include a grin or cite. Ron // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// // /// // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Sons of Perdition
-Original Message- From: Elmer L. Fairbank [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 7:21 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Sons of Perdition At 10:58 PM 11/12/2003 -0700, Sir Lew wrote: At 01:16 PM 11/12/2003, you wrote: Once Satan is loosed, he will gather an army from amongst those still living upon the earth. However, it will not be anywhere near the numbers he has already taken with him. In a world populated with 10 billion people, I would imagine his army would be in the millions at most. From my understanding and as Brother McConkie indicates This final great battle, in which evil spirits, mortal men, and resurrected personages all participate, will be the end of war as far as this earth is concernedI believe that the final battle includes these evil spirits or in other words the 1/3 of the host of heaven that was kicked out with Satan. If this is the case it surely would be more than millions. Wow, what a huge rumble! Get's the old Celtic/Norse blood riling just to think about it. Cool your fighting blood and freshen your synapses, Till. If Brother McConkie is right this will obviously be a war of words -- of good thinking/doing prevailing over evil. Otherwise, s'plain to me how one would go about slaying the a spirit, or one of the Three Nephites, for instance. RBS // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Sons of Perdition
At 07:11 AM 11/13/2003, you wrote: Cool your fighting blood and freshen your synapses, Till. If Brother McConkie is right this will obviously be a war of words -- of good thinking/doing prevailing over evil. Otherwise, s'plain to me how one would go about slaying the a spirit, or one of the Three Nephites, for i I do not think that this will be a war of tanks, guns and swords. How are you going to kill a resurrected being? I think that it will be a war of good vs evil. How exactly it is going to be waged is anyone guess. My guess is that the light over comes the darkness. -- Lew -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Sons of Perdition
-Original Message- From: Lew Thomas [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 1:16 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Sons of Perdition At 07:11 AM 11/13/2003, you wrote: Cool your fighting blood and freshen your synapses, Till. If Brother McConkie is right this will obviously be a war of words -- of good thinking/doing prevailing over evil. Otherwise, s'plain to me how one would go about slaying the a spirit, or one of the Three Nephites, for i I do not think that this will be a war of tanks, guns and swords. How are you going to kill a resurrected being? I think that it will be a war of good vs evil. How exactly it is going to be waged is anyone guess. My guess is that the light over comes the darkness. Those *WERE* my points and observations, precisely. I'm glad we agree. RBS // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Sons of Perdition
If this were lds-poll, I would say that there was a third hell, something about Mass. and one of their Senators. Jon - Original Message - From: Gerald Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 7:26 AM Subject: [ZION] Sons of Perdition There are two hells. The first is in the Spirit World, and it IS a wide path that leads to that hell. Damnation is another thing, as it refers to anyone whose eternal progress is limited. This can include those in the Terrestrial Kingdom (and perhaps angels in the Celestial Kingdom as well). But the longlasting Outer Darkness made for Sons of Perdition is a place which already will be quite filled with the third of heaven that has already chosen it. Given 16 billion people estimated have already walked the earth, that means a minimum of 8 billion spirits rejected God in the Spirit World. There just won't be very many mortals going there, as they don't have enough knowledge to choose it (and given they have already rejected Satan's plan once, most probably won't change their minds and choose his plan later). K'aya K'ama Gerald Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom/ Freedom Forever Stacy: This I have read, but what about the broad way which we are told will be followed by many? Stacy. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Sons of Perdition
Really? No nice guy, Teddy. But would you be if you'd lost three brothers prematurely, violently? -Original Message- From: Jon Spencer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 7:58 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ZION] Sons of Perdition If this were lds-poll, I would say that there was a third hell, something about Mass. and one of their Senators. Jon - Original Message - From: Gerald Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 7:26 AM Subject: [ZION] Sons of Perdition There are two hells. The first is in the Spirit World, and it IS a wide path that leads to that hell. Damnation is another thing, as it refers to anyone whose eternal progress is limited. This can include those in the Terrestrial Kingdom (and perhaps angels in the Celestial Kingdom as well). But the longlasting Outer Darkness made for Sons of Perdition is a place which already will be quite filled with the third of heaven that has already chosen it. Given 16 billion people estimated have already walked the earth, that means a minimum of 8 billion spirits rejected God in the Spirit World. There just won't be very many mortals going there, as they don't have enough knowledge to choose it (and given they have already rejected Satan's plan once, most probably won't change their minds and choose his plan later). K'aya K'ama Gerald Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom/ Freedom Forever Stacy: This I have read, but what about the broad way which we are told will be followed by many? Stacy. // // // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// // // / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// // /// // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Sons of Perdition
Gerald Smith wrote: But the longlasting Outer Darkness made for Sons of Perdition is a place which already will be quite filled with the third of heaven that has already chosen it. Given 16 billion people estimated have already walked the earth, that means a minimum of 8 billion spirits rejected God in the Spirit World. There just won't be very many mortals going there, as they don't have enough knowledge to choose it (and given they have already rejected Satan's plan once, most probably won't change their minds and choose his plan later). Those who are mortal now don't have enough knowledge to choose to be Sons of Perdition, but what about after the resurrection of the wicked? Isn't there going to be another great war after the Millennium? Those who fight against Christ as resurrected beings following the resurrection of the wicked will have enough knowledge then, won't they? Or is this war going to be fought strictly between those who are mortal upon the earth then? John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === While we cannot agree with others on certain matters, we must never be disagreeable. We must be friendly, soft-spoken, neighborly, and understanding. (President Gordon B. Hinckley, October 2003) === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Sons of Perdition
I think this is a relevant point. Those who see Christ come to govern during the millenial reign will have enough knowledge in all probability. Stacy. At 10:21 AM 11/12/2003 -0900, you wrote: Gerald Smith wrote: But the longlasting Outer Darkness made for Sons of Perdition is a place which already will be quite filled with the third of heaven that has already chosen it. Given 16 billion people estimated have already walked the earth, that means a minimum of 8 billion spirits rejected God in the Spirit World. There just won't be very many mortals going there, as they don't have enough knowledge to choose it (and given they have already rejected Satan's plan once, most probably won't change their minds and choose his plan later). Those who are mortal now don't have enough knowledge to choose to be Sons of Perdition, but what about after the resurrection of the wicked? Isn't there going to be another great war after the Millennium? Those who fight against Christ as resurrected beings following the resurrection of the wicked will have enough knowledge then, won't they? Or is this war going to be fought strictly between those who are mortal upon the earth then? John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === While we cannot agree with others on certain matters, we must never be disagreeable. We must be friendly, soft-spoken, neighborly, and understanding. (President Gordon B. Hinckley, October 2003) === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Sons of Perdition
There may very well be resurrected beings in this event. However, once resurrection occurs, IMHO, the desires for evil or good are already established. Once Satan is loosed, he will gather an army from amongst those still living upon the earth. However, it will not be anywhere near the numbers he has already taken with him. In a world populated with 10 billion people, I would imagine his army would be in the millions at most. Now, will that final war be fought just amongst mortals, or will it also be fought by spiritual beings on both sides, also? (on the lines of the legendary last battles of the Norse Gods at Ragnarock?) Gary Smith John W. Redelfs wrote: Gerald Smith wrote: But the longlasting Outer Darkness made for Sons of Perdition is a place which already will be quite filled with the third of heaven that has already chosen it. Given 16 billion people estimated have already walked the earth, that means a minimum of 8 billion spirits rejected God in the Spirit World. There just won't be very many mortals going there, as they don't have enough knowledge to choose it (and given they have already rejected Satan's plan once, most probably won't change their minds and choose his plan later). Those who are mortal now don't have enough knowledge to choose to be Sons of Perdition, but what about after the resurrection of the wicked? Isn't there going to be another great war after the Millennium? Those who fight against Christ as resurrected beings following the resurrection of the wicked will have enough knowledge then, won't they? Or is this war going to be fought strictly between those who are mortal upon the earth then? John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === While we cannot agree with others on certain matters, we must never be disagreeable. We must be friendly, soft-spoken, neighborly, and understanding. (President Gordon B. Hinckley, October 2003) === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR Gerald (Gary) Smith geraldsmith@ juno.com http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Sons of Perdition
At 01:16 PM 11/12/2003, you wrote: Once Satan is loosed, he will gather an army from amongst those still living upon the earth. However, it will not be anywhere near the numbers he has already taken with him. In a world populated with 10 billion people, I would imagine his army would be in the millions at most. From my understanding and as Brother McConkie indicates This final great battle, in which evil spirits, mortal men, and resurrected personages all participate, will be the end of war as far as this earth is concernedI believe that the final battle includes these evil spirits or in other words the 1/3 of the host of heaven that was kicked out with Satan. If this is the case it surely would be more than millions. -- Lew -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Sons of perdition
This I have read, but what about the broad way which we are told will be followed by many? Stacy. At 03:52 PM 11/08/2003 -0500, you wrote: I have some quotes here, which will show that one must do more than receive the Holy Ghost and reject it to become a candidate for perdition. You will see that one must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened up, know God, and then totally and completely rebel. Gary Mormon Doctrine tells us about sons of perdition: Disobedience See CHILDREN OF DISOBEDIENCE, OBEDIENCE, REBELLION. Nonconformity to divine standards of personal righteousness constitutes disobedience. All men are either obedient or disobedient; they either keep the commandments or fail to do so; either neglect or refusal to conform to gospel standards classifies a person as a rebel. Disobedience is of the devil, That wicked one cometh and taketh away light and truth, through disobedience, from the children of men, and because of the traditions of their fathers. (DC 93:39) By disobedience men gain membership in the kingdom of the devil, as he operates it on earth, in the spirit world, and among the resurrected rebels of eternity. The most violent and destructive of all disobedience is the complete and open rebellion against light and truth which makes a person a son of perdition. Those who love darkness rather than light, their deeds being evil, receive their wages of whom they list to obey. (DC 29:45 in the Encyclopedia of Mormonism, we read: In LDS scripture Lucifer and cain are called Perdition, meaning destruction (DC 76:; moses 5:Moses 4:1-4) and mortals who commit the unpardonable sin against the Holy Ghost will inherit the same condition as Lucifer and Cain, and thus are called sons of perdition. 1391Perdition is both a place and a spiritual condition. As a place, it is synonymous with that hell to which both unembodied and resurrected sons of perdition will be consigned following the last judgment ( Ne. 28:23; DC 29:38; TPJS, p. 361). This future kingdom of the devil will be devoid of any of the Spirit and glory of God. (DC 88:24). Sons of perdition are not merely wicked; they are incorrigibly evil. In sinning against the revelations of the Holy Ghost, they have sinned against the greater light and knowledge of God. They willfully and utterly pervert principles of righteousness and truth with which they were once endowed, and transform them into principles of evil and deception. Joseph Smith declared, You cannot save such persons; you cannot bring them to repentance (TPJS, p. 358). No divine principle can cleanse the sons of perdition; following the last judgment, they will remain filthy still (DC 29:44DC 29:44;DC 88:35 88:35). It is revealed that it had been better for them never to have been born (DC 76:32DC 76:32). AND Unpardonable Sin 1499The gravest of all sins is blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. One may speak even against Jesus Christ in ignorance and, upon repentance, be forgiven, but knowingly to sin against the Holy Ghost by denying its influence after having received it is unpardonable (matt. 12:31matt. 12:32Matt. 12:31-32; jacob 7:19Jacob 7:19; alma 39:6Alma 39:6), and the consequences are inescapable. Such denial dooms the perpetrator to the hell of the second spiritual death (TPJS, p. 361). This extreme judgment comes because the person sins knowingly against the light, thereby severing himself from the redeeming grace of Christ. He is numbered with the sons of perdition (DC 76:43DC 76:43). 1499The Prophet Joseph Smith explained, No man can commit the unpardonable sin after the dissolution of the body, nor in this life, until he receives the Holy Ghost (TPJS, p. 357). To commit the unpardonable sin, a person must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened unto him, and know God, and then sin against Him. After a man has sinned against the Holy Ghost, there is no repentance for himÂ…. he has got to deny Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened to him, and to deny the Plan of Salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it (TPJS, p. 358; cf. heb. 10:26heb. 10:27heb. 10:28heb. 10:29Heb. 10:26-29). AND Ultimate and total damnation comes only to the devil and his angels, who rebelled in the first estate, and to the sons of perdition, who are damned eternally and denied entrance into any kingdom of glory hereafter (DC 76:32). The sons of perdition are those guilty of unpardonable sin against the Holy Ghost (DC 132:27); cf. mark 3:29), which includes the willful denial of the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame (DC 76:35). And All except the sons of perdition will eventually accept Christ and obey him, and thereby escape the dominion of Satan (DC 76:110). Thus is the Father's plan of agency fulfilled. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// ///
Re: [ZION] Sons of perdition
At 05:16 PM 11/8/2003 -0900, BLT wrote: Gerald Smith wrote: I have some quotes here, which will show that one must do more than receive the Holy Ghost and reject it to become a candidate for perdition. You will see that one must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened up, know God, and then totally and completely rebel. I agree with this, but what does it mean to have the heavens opened up, and know God? Can a person gain a perfect knowledge so that faith is dormant by the witness of the Holy Ghost alone? Or does he actually have to see the face of God? --JWR The more one knows, the more responsibility one carries. The deeper you get into the mud, the more difficult it is to get out. I, for one, would rather not push my luck to find out. Till the pragmatist // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Sons of perdition
I don't think a person needs to necessarily see God with his mortal eyes. But the Holy Spirit's witness must be so strong as to totally remove all doubt. Joseph Smith once said that we must look directly at the Sun and say it does not exist; to give an idea of what it means to deny the Holy Ghost. That tells me that most of us who have experienced the converting power of the Holy Ghost just have not received it strongly enough to know for certain. And I include myself in that group. I just haven't received a strong enough witness to become a son of perdition, if I were to choose right now to rebel totally against God. K'aya K'ama, Gerald (Gary) Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html LDS Evidences, Family History, Food Storage, etc. JWR: Gerald Smith wrote: I have some quotes here, which will show that one must do more than receive the Holy Ghost and reject it to become a candidate for perdition. You will see that one must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened up, know God, and then totally and completely rebel. I agree with this, but what does it mean to have the heavens opened up, and know God? Can a person gain a perfect knowledge so that faith is dormant by the witness of the Holy Ghost alone? Or does he actually have to see the face of God? --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Sons of perdition
I have some quotes here, which will show that one must do more than receive the Holy Ghost and reject it to become a candidate for perdition. You will see that one must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened up, know God, and then totally and completely rebel. Gary Mormon Doctrine tells us about sons of perdition: Disobedience See CHILDREN OF DISOBEDIENCE, OBEDIENCE, REBELLION. Nonconformity to divine standards of personal righteousness constitutes disobedience. All men are either obedient or disobedient; they either keep the commandments or fail to do so; either neglect or refusal to conform to gospel standards classifies a person as a rebel. Disobedience is of the devil, That wicked one cometh and taketh away light and truth, through disobedience, from the children of men, and because of the traditions of their fathers. (DC 93:39) By disobedience men gain membership in the kingdom of the devil, as he operates it on earth, in the spirit world, and among the resurrected rebels of eternity. The most violent and destructive of all disobedience is the complete and open rebellion against light and truth which makes a person a son of perdition. Those who love darkness rather than light, their deeds being evil, receive their wages of whom they list to obey. (DC 29:45 in the Encyclopedia of Mormonism, we read: In LDS scripture Lucifer and cain are called Perdition, meaning destruction (DC 76:; moses 5:Moses 4:1-4) and mortals who commit the unpardonable sin against the Holy Ghost will inherit the same condition as Lucifer and Cain, and thus are called sons of perdition. 1391Perdition is both a place and a spiritual condition. As a place, it is synonymous with that hell to which both unembodied and resurrected sons of perdition will be consigned following the last judgment ( Ne. 28:23; DC 29:38; TPJS, p. 361). This future kingdom of the devil will be devoid of any of the Spirit and glory of God. (DC 88:24). Sons of perdition are not merely wicked; they are incorrigibly evil. In sinning against the revelations of the Holy Ghost, they have sinned against the greater light and knowledge of God. They willfully and utterly pervert principles of righteousness and truth with which they were once endowed, and transform them into principles of evil and deception. Joseph Smith declared, You cannot save such persons; you cannot bring them to repentance (TPJS, p. 358). No divine principle can cleanse the sons of perdition; following the last judgment, they will remain filthy still (DC 29:44DC 29:44;DC 88:35 88:35). It is revealed that it had been better for them never to have been born (DC 76:32DC 76:32). AND Unpardonable Sin 1499The gravest of all sins is blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. One may speak even against Jesus Christ in ignorance and, upon repentance, be forgiven, but knowingly to sin against the Holy Ghost by denying its influence after having received it is unpardonable (matt. 12:31matt. 12:32Matt. 12:31-32; jacob 7:19Jacob 7:19; alma 39:6Alma 39:6), and the consequences are inescapable. Such denial dooms the perpetrator to the hell of the second spiritual death (TPJS, p. 361). This extreme judgment comes because the person sins knowingly against the light, thereby severing himself from the redeeming grace of Christ. He is numbered with the sons of perdition (DC 76:43DC 76:43). 1499The Prophet Joseph Smith explained, No man can commit the unpardonable sin after the dissolution of the body, nor in this life, until he receives the Holy Ghost (TPJS, p. 357). To commit the unpardonable sin, a person must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened unto him, and know God, and then sin against Him. After a man has sinned against the Holy Ghost, there is no repentance for himÂ…. he has got to deny Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened to him, and to deny the Plan of Salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it (TPJS, p. 358; cf. heb. 10:26heb. 10:27heb. 10:28heb. 10:29Heb. 10:26-29). AND Ultimate and total damnation comes only to the devil and his angels, who rebelled in the first estate, and to the sons of perdition, who are damned eternally and denied entrance into any kingdom of glory hereafter (DC 76:32). The sons of perdition are those guilty of unpardonable sin against the Holy Ghost (DC 132:27); cf. mark 3:29), which includes the willful denial of the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame (DC 76:35). And All except the sons of perdition will eventually accept Christ and obey him, and thereby escape the dominion of Satan (DC 76:110). Thus is the Father's plan of agency fulfilled. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// /
Re: [ZION] Sons of perdition
Gerald Smith wrote: I have some quotes here, which will show that one must do more than receive the Holy Ghost and reject it to become a candidate for perdition. You will see that one must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened up, know God, and then totally and completely rebel. I agree with this, but what does it mean to have the heavens opened up, and know God? Can a person gain a perfect knowledge so that faith is dormant by the witness of the Holy Ghost alone? Or does he actually have to see the face of God? --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Sons of Perdition, Not a Few
Evidently many among us have made a dreadful mistake, but not unpardonable, in thinking that the sons of perdition will be very few. We have heard it said at times that they will be so few that they probably could be counted on the fingers of one hand. Where this thought originated we may not know. From the reading of the scriptures it appears that there will be a large number; far too many even if there were but one, for their punishment is most severe without any question. (Joseph Fielding Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, Vol.1, p.78) // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Sons of Perdition
In an effort to document Ron Scott's assertion that there will be very few Sons of Perdition, a number so small they can be counted on the fingers of one hand, I have been studying a few dozen of the references out of the many hundreds available on my CD-ROM, and I have learned a few things. 1) It is folk doctrine, and it is false that there will be only a few Sons of Perdition. In one place Joseph Fielding Smith denounces the fingers of one hand language. In another he says there were be many Sons of Perdition, but quickly adds that even one would be too many given the severity of the punishment. 2) A person cannot ignorantly become a Son of Perdition. He must willingly rebel against Heaven, just as Lucifer did. 3) He must commit the unpardonable sin which is the sin against the Holy Ghost. That is, he must first have the testimony of Jesus and then fight against the Savior. 4) Joseph Smith once said that he must first have the heavens open unto him, which seems to be the source of confusion. Judging from other passages, having the heavens open is just an euphemism for having a testimony born of the Holy Ghost, not some spectacular vision such as Moses had in the PofGP or Nephi had in the BoM. 5) Apparently it is possible to have the perfect knowledge required by receiving a witness of the Holy Ghost. Anyway, so far it seems pretty vague just how much knowledge a person has to have in order to qualify as a Son of Perdition, but I'm going to play it safe and not rebel against God. Studying it, I get the distinct impression that one does not have to 1) have ones Calling and Election made sure, or 2) receive the Second Comforter, or 3) receive the vision given to Nephi and Moses. A person can qualify by merely having the testimony of the Holy Ghost that Jesus is the Christ and then turn altogether away from that testimony and knowingly fight against him. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === While we cannot agree with others on certain matters, we must never be disagreeable. We must be friendly, soft-spoken, neighborly, and understanding. (President Gordon B. Hinckley, October 2003) === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
