Re: [Zope] DC request re: Objection to Python Script Name
Ron Bickers wrote: On Thu, 23 Nov 2000, Chris Withers wrote: To Hamish, the other Chris, and anyone else who's going to jump in on this. To be quite blunt, this has now been _decided_ as I understand it. So it's pointless to keep arguing and suggesting new and different names. We now _have_ a president and it's name is 'Python Script' ;-) With all due respect to everyone, this should not be considered a closed issue. It is. This is the kind of thing where it is impossible to make 100% of the participants happy, we regret that not everyone is going to go for it, but we *must* move forward. This issue is holding up Python Scripts, which is holding up the book, which is intimately tied to Zope 2.3, all of which is intimiately tied to my paycheck. My paycheck doesn't really have anything to do with it but I just thought I'd mention it. ;) My understanding is that there would be a vote for a name. We could not afford any further delay, and the last poll was a disaster. The author of Python Scripts (the majority of which were written before he worked at DC) rightly asserted his position and picked a name. I'm sure it wasn't easy for him, and there was lots of internal conflict; many in the company not liking 'Script' for many of the same reasons you do. Skipping that in the name of getting things moving after it was offered by Digital Creations seems to go against the open source nature of the product. That is tying a strong semantic relation between "open source" and "democratic". In my mind, the open source nature is that anyone can examine, author and contribute code to a project for peer review and inclusion. Evan did just that, he wrote most of what used to be called Python Methods before he worked at DC and contributed it freely under the open source mantra. I don't think voting has much to do with open source, it has worked for us (with the documentation poll) and failed for us (with what used to be called Python Methods) but we'll probably try it again. Not to mention that the name chosen does nothing to distinguish it from an everyday Python "script" outside of Zope, which is what sparked the name change to begin with. "It's not really a Python method, so let's change the name." Well, it's not just a "Python Script" either. It's Zopified. Just to clarify, in the Python language, there is no such thing as a "script". What you are thinking of as a "script" is really some hunk of data (probably a file) containing python code that contains either some platform specific hook to invoke the interpreter, or that you pass to the interpreter on the platform specific "command line". Neither of these things have anything to do with the language called Python. Once inside the interpreter, you are officially working with "modules". "Modules" and "methods" are real, defined, un-ambiguous Python objects defined in the Language Reference (http://www.python.org/doc/current/ref/ref.html). Obviously, naming a Zope object "module" or "method" would be a bad idea, and therein lies the problem. "Script" is just un-bound, non-python specific, vague lingo that everybody uses to describe a chunk of code in just about any language, on any platform. In this case, the platform is Zope, the chunk of code is written in Python, and the "command line" is your web browser. I can sympathize with your feelings, but one of the reasons I don't like "Method" is because it's is OO specific; it is a very technical term. "ZMethod" is no better, even if it doesn't have the problem of clashing names with a python object (and barely not clashing at that!). We want to make using Zope easier. For the target audience we want to approach, if 1000 people pull down the add list and see "Python ZMethod" many more of them are going to scratch their heads about what the hell a ZMethod is than if they see "Python Script". "Oh, a python script? Cool! I've written some CGI scripts! Now I can go and read chapter six of the book 'Scripting Zope' and find out how to 'script the web'!" -Michel ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] DC request re: Objection to Python Script Name
When I 'jumped in' (nod to Chris Withers :-)) with my promotion of ZMethod, I'd missed Evan's announcement that he'd decided on Python Script - I thought it was just another suggestion and we were still in the middle of campaigning for the upcoming second poll! I'm actually not that averse to Script; it was ZMethod's OO associations that I liked - but if Michel thinks that such an association is actually not appropriate in this situation, then I'll bow to his greater Zope understanding. I agree with him that the new name needs to make it into the book, and Script is a reasonable choice. Is it intended to rename DTML Method, ZSQL Method, etc to be DTML Script, SQL Script, etc? For the sake of consistency I'm hoping so, and I think it's important that these revisions also make it into the book. Onwards! Hamish Lawson Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] DC request re: Objection to Python Script Name
Quoting Hamish Lawson [EMAIL PROTECTED]: understanding. I agree with him that the new name needs to make it into the book, and Script is a reasonable choice. Is it intended to rename DTML Method, ZSQL Method, etc to be DTML Script, SQL Script, etc? For the sake of consistency I'm hoping so, and I think it's important that these revisions also make it into the book. I agree that this consistency is important, and "before the book" is a good time to disrupt names. Also, what about External Method? External Script? Also, are these going to remain only available in the Python language? If not, that name becomes an issue too. I hope all this naming talk isn't too distracting for DC, but I (and clearly others) think it's important, esp. before the world sees it in print. --- Ron ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
[Zope] DC request re: Objection to Python Script Name
On Thu, 23 Nov 2000, Chris Withers wrote: To Hamish, the other Chris, and anyone else who's going to jump in on this. To be quite blunt, this has now been _decided_ as I understand it. So it's pointless to keep arguing and suggesting new and different names. We now _have_ a president and it's name is 'Python Script' ;-) With all due respect to everyone, this should not be considered a closed issue. My understanding is that there would be a vote for a name. Skipping that in the name of getting things moving after it was offered by Digital Creations seems to go against the open source nature of the product. Not to mention that the name chosen does nothing to distinguish it from an everyday Python "script" outside of Zope, which is what sparked the name change to begin with. "It's not really a Python method, so let's change the name." Well, it's not just a "Python Script" either. It's Zopified. I agree with Hamish Lawson on the renaming of methods to use a language name with a ZMethod suffix for consistency and for all of the other reasons he mentioned. The argument that all documentation would be rendered incorrect should not be an excuse for keeping bad naming conventions. A document describing new names vs. old names could easily be provided in the book and in an easily accessible location on the Zope site. Over time the "problem" would go away and we would end up with something that is consistent, representative, and easy to understand. On that same note, maybe Zope *should* provide an "alias" for bobobase_modification_time and depricate its use? Maybe I'm pushing it on that one since I don't know what major internal chaos it might cause, but I hope you understand my point. The new getId() comes to mind as an example in the right direction. Please, Digital Creations, keep this issue open for consideration in the name of a better product. *Before* the book is published is the time to pick a naming convention that isn't confusing. I do care about the name. I took great care in naming my child, and though it's not quite the same thing, I think DC should do the same. Thanks, and I *love* Zope. --- Ron Bickers Logic Etc, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
