Re: [Zope-dev] SVN: Zope/trunk/lib/python/zope/ - Revert to an older zope.testing. New one is way too new

2008-10-27 Thread Marius Gedminas
On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 11:35:09AM -0400, Tres Seaver wrote:
 Sidnei da Silva wrote:
  Log message for revision 92597:
 - Revert to an older zope.testing. New one is way too new
 
 Before:
 
  testing  
  svn://svn.zope.org/repos/main/zope.testing/tags/3.5.3/src/zope/testing
 
 After:
 
  testing  
  svn://svn.zope.org/repos/main/zope.testing/tags/3.5.6/src/zope/testing
 
 
 Unless I'm seeing things, this is a bump to a newer version.

The new one is so new it's counting version numbers in reverse?

Marius Gedminas
-- 
I used to (somewhat) sneer at people who describe themselves thus: I program
HTML. Then I tried to make a web-site look as I wanted it to (ie. not
grotesquely ugly), wow - perhaps they were onto something. Some think there is
a pile of broken mess in our desktop, but at least you know where you are with
a GtkHBox.
-- Michael Meeks


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[Zope-dev] Zope Tests: 4 OK, 1 Failed

2008-10-27 Thread Zope Tests Summarizer
Summary of messages to the zope-tests list.
Period Sun Oct 26 12:00:00 2008 UTC to Mon Oct 27 12:00:00 2008 UTC.
There were 5 messages: 5 from Zope Tests.


Test failures
-

Subject: FAILED (failures=3, errors=4) : Zope-trunk Python-2.4.4 : Linux
From: Zope Tests
Date: Sun Oct 26 22:03:25 EDT 2008
URL: http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope-tests/2008-October/010375.html


Tests passed OK
---

Subject: OK : Zope-2.8 Python-2.3.6 : Linux
From: Zope Tests
Date: Sun Oct 26 21:57:24 EDT 2008
URL: http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope-tests/2008-October/010371.html

Subject: OK : Zope-2.9 Python-2.4.4 : Linux
From: Zope Tests
Date: Sun Oct 26 21:58:54 EDT 2008
URL: http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope-tests/2008-October/010372.html

Subject: OK : Zope-2.10 Python-2.4.4 : Linux
From: Zope Tests
Date: Sun Oct 26 22:00:25 EDT 2008
URL: http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope-tests/2008-October/010373.html

Subject: OK : Zope-2.11 Python-2.4.4 : Linux
From: Zope Tests
Date: Sun Oct 26 22:01:55 EDT 2008
URL: http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope-tests/2008-October/010374.html

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Re: [Zope-dev] ZCatalog caching with memcached

2008-10-27 Thread Roché Compaan
On Sun, 2008-10-26 at 14:07 -0400, Tres Seaver wrote:
 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1
 
 Roché Compaan wrote:
  On Sat, 2008-10-25 at 09:20 +0200, Hedley Roos wrote:
  Have you measures the time needs for some standard ZCatalog queries
  used with a Plone site with the communication overhead with memcached?
  Generally spoken: I think the ZCatalog is in general fast. Queries using a
  fulltext index are known to be more expensive or if you have to deal with
  large resultsets or complex queries.
 
  No I haven't. Roche Compaan has done extensive benchmarking using
  funkload testing plain catalog vs module level cache vs memcached, but
  the tests are more about page serving than catalog query time. I'll
  ask him to comment more on that.
  
  I actually did some profiling as well and catalog searches were just too
  damn slow. The average execution time for searchResults was 100
  milliseconds and this is why I told Hedley we should do some caching at
  query level in the first place. I experimented with this idea a couple
  of years back but wasn't successful due to inexperience. I was trying to
  cache brains which obviously leads to persistency bugs. This time around
  it was obvious to me that we should cache the IISet result sets.
  
  I suspect specific indexes are just performing suboptimally and needs to
  be improved. ExtendPathIndex in Plone seems to be one of them.
  
  The effect on performance is really awesome, now we just need to fine
  tune the implementation.
 
 Before (or while) we work on caching, can we try to improve the
 underlying indexes, and the way that applications use them?  I'm pretty
 sure that there is a lot of room for improvement:
 
  - Plone uses too many indexes, and in particular, uses multiple text
indexes.  Having extra indexes around just in case is a sure lose
a write time, and may even be expensive at query time (depending on
the query).
 
  - Particular indexes have performance characteristics based on their
designed purpose:  for instance, the stock FieldIndex implementation
assumes that the number of documents indexed will be  the number of
discrete indexable values.  Using such an index in an application
domain with a very large set of indexable values probably loses, and
in ways which don't show up in early / small-scale testing.
 
  - I'm pretty sure that we haven't yet found the best data structure for
hierarchy indexes (e.g., the Plone EPI index, or the stock Zope2
PathIndex, etc.).  Something like a 'trie' might be optimal for
pure prefix searching of hierarchies.
 
  - I am confident that the TopicIndex is underutiliized:  it does *all*
the work for a given query at write time, and can thus be blindingly
fast at query time.
 
  - Other special-purpose indexes (e.g., a recent items index) would
be worth a look, especially for applications with large volumes of
content.

I agree that one should look at improving performance without caching as
well. But this is a lot harder and takes significantly more development
and debugging time than introducing some form caching. So I'm not
convinced that it needs to happen in a certain order. If caching gives
you lots of performance with little effort now, then why shouldn't you
use it?

-- 
Roché Compaan
Upfront Systems   http://www.upfrontsystems.co.za

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Re: [Zope-dev] ZCatalog caching with memcached

2008-10-27 Thread Jens Vagelpohl
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1


On Oct 27, 2008, at 13:08 , Roché Compaan wrote:

 On Sun, 2008-10-26 at 14:07 -0400, Tres Seaver wrote:
 - Plone uses too many indexes, and in particular, uses multiple text
   indexes.  Having extra indexes around just in case is a sure lose
   a write time, and may even be expensive at query time (depending on
   the query).

 - Particular indexes have performance characteristics based on their
   designed purpose:  for instance, the stock FieldIndex  
 implementation
   assumes that the number of documents indexed will be  the  
 number of
   discrete indexable values.  Using such an index in an application
   domain with a very large set of indexable values probably loses,  
 and
   in ways which don't show up in early / small-scale testing.

 - I'm pretty sure that we haven't yet found the best data structure  
 for
   hierarchy indexes (e.g., the Plone EPI index, or the stock Zope2
   PathIndex, etc.).  Something like a 'trie' might be optimal for
   pure prefix searching of hierarchies.

 - I am confident that the TopicIndex is underutiliized:  it does  
 *all*
   the work for a given query at write time, and can thus be  
 blindingly
   fast at query time.

 - Other special-purpose indexes (e.g., a recent items index) would
   be worth a look, especially for applications with large volumes of
   content.

 I agree that one should look at improving performance without  
 caching as
 well. But this is a lot harder and takes significantly more  
 development
 and debugging time than introducing some form caching. So I'm not
 convinced that it needs to happen in a certain order. If caching gives
 you lots of performance with little effort now, then why shouldn't you
 use it?

It's the typical trade-off. One course is expedient and fast for your  
use case now. The other requires more resources, but benefits  
everyone. Including those who don't want to depend on yet another  
package, like memcached, for performance.

When it comes to integrating anything in Zope itself I'd choose the  
latter.

jens


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Re: [Zope-dev] ZCatalog caching with memcached

2008-10-27 Thread Roché Compaan
On Mon, 2008-10-27 at 13:23 +0100, Jens Vagelpohl wrote:
 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1
 
 
 On Oct 27, 2008, at 13:08 , Roché Compaan wrote:
 
  On Sun, 2008-10-26 at 14:07 -0400, Tres Seaver wrote:
  - Plone uses too many indexes, and in particular, uses multiple text
indexes.  Having extra indexes around just in case is a sure lose
a write time, and may even be expensive at query time (depending on
the query).
 
  - Particular indexes have performance characteristics based on their
designed purpose:  for instance, the stock FieldIndex  
  implementation
assumes that the number of documents indexed will be  the  
  number of
discrete indexable values.  Using such an index in an application
domain with a very large set of indexable values probably loses,  
  and
in ways which don't show up in early / small-scale testing.
 
  - I'm pretty sure that we haven't yet found the best data structure  
  for
hierarchy indexes (e.g., the Plone EPI index, or the stock Zope2
PathIndex, etc.).  Something like a 'trie' might be optimal for
pure prefix searching of hierarchies.
 
  - I am confident that the TopicIndex is underutiliized:  it does  
  *all*
the work for a given query at write time, and can thus be  
  blindingly
fast at query time.
 
  - Other special-purpose indexes (e.g., a recent items index) would
be worth a look, especially for applications with large volumes of
content.
 
  I agree that one should look at improving performance without  
  caching as
  well. But this is a lot harder and takes significantly more  
  development
  and debugging time than introducing some form caching. So I'm not
  convinced that it needs to happen in a certain order. If caching gives
  you lots of performance with little effort now, then why shouldn't you
  use it?
 
 It's the typical trade-off. One course is expedient and fast for your  
 use case now. The other requires more resources, but benefits  
 everyone. Including those who don't want to depend on yet another  
 package, like memcached, for performance.

I'm not tied to memcached. We started out using module level caches like
zope.cache.ram but that has obvious problems when using ZEO.

 When it comes to integrating anything in Zope itself I'd choose the  
 latter.

Sure, we're not trying to get this into Zope, we're just sharing our
experience and exploring the territory so that one can produce a third
party package that really help people with the same use case (which I
suspect is quite common one).

-- 
Roché Compaan
Upfront Systems   http://www.upfrontsystems.co.za

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Re: [Zope-dev] ZCatalog caching with memcached

2008-10-27 Thread Jens Vagelpohl
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1


On Oct 27, 2008, at 13:32 , Roché Compaan wrote:

 On Mon, 2008-10-27 at 13:23 +0100, Jens Vagelpohl wrote:
 When it comes to integrating anything in Zope itself I'd choose the
 latter.

 Sure, we're not trying to get this into Zope, we're just sharing our
 experience and exploring the territory so that one can produce a third
 party package that really help people with the same use case (which I
 suspect is quite common one).

Right, it's perfectly valid to create such a third party package. The  
discussion just highlights a greater issue. Personally, I don't think  
it's good practice to focus on the expediency of working around a  
problem as opposed to tackling the problem directly. The Zope world is  
littered with add-ons that act as band-aids on real or perceived  
shortcomings in Zope itself.

jens


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Re: [Zope-dev] ZCatalog caching with memcached

2008-10-27 Thread Roché Compaan
On Mon, 2008-10-27 at 13:41 +0100, Jens Vagelpohl wrote:
 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1
 
 
 On Oct 27, 2008, at 13:32 , Roché Compaan wrote:
 
  On Mon, 2008-10-27 at 13:23 +0100, Jens Vagelpohl wrote:
  When it comes to integrating anything in Zope itself I'd choose the
  latter.
 
  Sure, we're not trying to get this into Zope, we're just sharing our
  experience and exploring the territory so that one can produce a third
  party package that really help people with the same use case (which I
  suspect is quite common one).
 
 Right, it's perfectly valid to create such a third party package. The  
 discussion just highlights a greater issue. Personally, I don't think  
 it's good practice to focus on the expediency of working around a  
 problem as opposed to tackling the problem directly. The Zope world is  
 littered with add-ons that act as band-aids on real or perceived  
 shortcomings in Zope itself.

Improving the performance of indexes is really really hard. In this case
I really don't think caching is a band-aid, it is a good solution. Even
with optimised indexes, you will find that you need caching to get
reasonable performance if you have a catalog with close to a million or
more documents indexed. Given a large enough catalog, I would argue that
caching is equally as necessary as having a large cache for a ZEO
client.

But caches expire and results get invalidated, and therefor we should
continue to optimise indexes. With some help we should be able to
contribute at this level too.

-- 
Roché Compaan
Upfront Systems   http://www.upfrontsystems.co.za

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Re: [Zope-dev] ZCatalog caching with memcached

2008-10-27 Thread Rudá Porto Filgueiras
On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 12:33 PM, Andreas Jung [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On 27.10.2008 16:28 Uhr, Rudá Porto Filgueiras wrote:

 I will sugest a package called zope.memcached (like zope.sqlalchemy
 does for SQLAlchemy integration).
 That way any application who need to talk memcached can do it with out
 loose atomicit.

 I don't see a particular reason for creating a new package for here.
 Extend lovely.memcached and your done. There is not much need for scattering
 tiny functionalies into two modules here. The module world is already
 complicated enough.

If lovely,memcached alredy is safe when some Exception is raised,
discard my sugestion.
It's also compatible with zope2?

 Andreas




-- 
=
Rudá Porto Filgueiras
Weimar Consultoria

http://python-blog.blogspot.com

Hospedagem Plone, Django, Zope 3, Grok...
http://www.pytown.com
=
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Re: [Zope-dev] ZCatalog caching with memcached

2008-10-27 Thread Andreas Jung

On 27.10.2008 17:18 Uhr, Rudá Porto Filgueiras wrote:

On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 12:33 PM, Andreas Jung[EMAIL PROTECTED]  wrote:

On 27.10.2008 16:28 Uhr, Rudá Porto Filgueiras wrote:


I will sugest a package called zope.memcached (like zope.sqlalchemy
does for SQLAlchemy integration).
That way any application who need to talk memcached can do it with out
loose atomicit.

I don't see a particular reason for creating a new package for here.
Extend lovely.memcached and your done. There is not much need for scattering
tiny functionalies into two modules here. The module world is already
complicated enough.


If lovely,memcached alredy is safe when some Exception is raised,
discard my sugestion.
It's also compatible with zope2?


We are using it together with our cache tool I mentioned earlier
with Zope 2.8.1.

Andreas
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[Zope-dev] catalog performance: query plan

2008-10-27 Thread Alan Runyan
I agree with Tres.  A lot more can be done with Indexes and Catalog
without caching.

The most exiciting development in Catalog optimizations comes out
Jarn.  Helge Tesdal (iirc) did a buncha work  at a RDBMS company when
he was in college.  He has a protoype of a query plan for ZCatalog.

http://www.jarn.com/blog/catalog-query-plan

I would like to ask Roche and others to look at the Query Plan.

Caching is a total PITA because invalidation machinery becomes
overwhelming complex and unwieldly quickly in production.

-- 
Alan Runyan
Enfold Systems, Inc.
http://www.enfoldsystems.com/
phone: +1.713.942.2377x111
fax: +1.832.201.8856
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Re: [Zope-dev] Proposal: Backporting some Python 2.5/2.6 fixes

2008-10-27 Thread Andreas Jung

On 27.10.2008 18:36 Uhr, Sidnei da Silva wrote:

Hi all,

I would like to propose backporting some of the fixes needed for
Python 2.5 and 2.6 all the way down to Zope 2.10. The fixes that would
be backported would only be those that deal with syntax changes (eg:
'with' and 'as' keyword being used as variables, relative imports) and
some C-level changes, to Acquisition and zope.app.container if I
recall. I would *not* backport changes to RestrictedPython because
those are actually features (support for newer versions of Python) as
opposed to the other changes, which are just 'bugfixes' IMHO.



Why do we need these backports on the current maintenance branches?

Andreas
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[Zope-dev] Proposal: Backporting some Python 2.5/2.6 fixes

2008-10-27 Thread Sidnei da Silva
Hi all,

I would like to propose backporting some of the fixes needed for
Python 2.5 and 2.6 all the way down to Zope 2.10. The fixes that would
be backported would only be those that deal with syntax changes (eg:
'with' and 'as' keyword being used as variables, relative imports) and
some C-level changes, to Acquisition and zope.app.container if I
recall. I would *not* backport changes to RestrictedPython because
those are actually features (support for newer versions of Python) as
opposed to the other changes, which are just 'bugfixes' IMHO.

Would anyone be against this?

-- 
Sidnei da Silva
Enfold Systems
http://enfoldsystems.com
Fax +1 832 201 8856
Office +1 713 942 2377 Ext 214
Skype zopedc
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Re: [Zope-dev] Proposal: Backporting some Python 2.5/2.6 fixes

2008-10-27 Thread Sidnei da Silva
On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 3:42 PM, Andreas Jung [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Why do we need these backports on the current maintenance branches?

They are small cleanups that could potentially allow someone to run
Python 2.5 or 2.6 if they really really really wanted to, but note
should be made that it would be completely and utterly unsupported.

-- 
Sidnei da Silva
Enfold Systems
http://enfoldsystems.com
Fax +1 832 201 8856
Office +1 713 942 2377 Ext 214
Skype zopedc
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Re: [Zope-dev] Proposal: Backporting some Python 2.5/2.6 fixes

2008-10-27 Thread Andreas Jung

On 27.10.2008 18:55 Uhr, Sidnei da Silva wrote:

On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 3:42 PM, Andreas Jung[EMAIL PROTECTED]  wrote:

Why do we need these backports on the current maintenance branches?


They are small cleanups that could potentially allow someone to run
Python 2.5 or 2.6 if they really really really wanted to, but note
should be made that it would be completely and utterly unsupported.


Please create branches first and then lets review the changes. What is 
the state of the compatability of Z3 modules with Python 2.5/2.6 as used 
in Zope 2.10/2.11?


Andreas
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Re: [Zope-dev] Proposal: Backporting some Python 2.5/2.6 fixes

2008-10-27 Thread Sidnei da Silva
On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 4:06 PM, Andreas Jung [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Please create branches first and then lets review the changes.

Great.

 What is the
 state of the compatability of Z3 modules with Python 2.5/2.6 as used in Zope
 2.10/2.11?

Hard to tell at this point.

-- 
Sidnei da Silva
Enfold Systems
http://enfoldsystems.com
Fax +1 832 201 8856
Office +1 713 942 2377 Ext 214
Skype zopedc
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Re: [Zope-dev] Zope Tests: 4 OK, 1 Failed

2008-10-27 Thread Tres Seaver
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

 Subject: FAILED (failures=3, errors=4) : Zope-trunk Python-2.4.4 : Linux
 From: Zope Tests
 Date: Sun Oct 26 22:03:25 EDT 2008
 URL: http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope-tests/2008-October/010375.html

Sidnei,

First, thanks for working to get the GSoC 2.5 / 2.6 stuff landed!

Second, I'm pretty sure that last night's failures are all due to
landing the GSoC branch, as you were the only person checking into the
Zope2 trunk yesterday:

 - AccessControl.tests.testZopeGuards:  I have fixed these tests to
   pass under Python 2.4 ('all', 'any' arent in builtins;  'max' and
   'min' don't take a 'key' argument).

 - Products.Five.browser.tests.resource_ftest.txt  I have narrowed
   these failures down to OFS.SimpleItem: if I revert the change to
   'raise_standardErrorMessage', those tests pass again.  I'm not
   confident, however, that I can figure out why they are breaking.

 - zope.testbrowser.fixed-bugs.txt:  I haven't gotten to these.

I think we need to keep the trunk passing under Python 2.4 for now, and
we need to be running 'test.py --all' to flush out the changes.  Can you
look at the rest here?


Tres.
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Tres Seaver  +1 540-429-0999  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Palladion Software   Excellence by Designhttp://palladion.com
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Re: [Zope-dev] [Checkins] SVN: Zope/trunk/lib/python/AccessControl/tests/actual_python.py 'any' and 'all' are not builtins in Python 2.4.

2008-10-27 Thread Tres Seaver
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Zvezdan Petkovic wrote:
 Is this a typo?

Yes, thanks for the catch.

 On Oct 27, 2008, at 1:57 PM, Tres Seaver wrote:
 
 def f13():
 -assert any([True, True, True]) == True
 -assert any([True, False, True]) == True
 -assert any([False, False, False]) == False
 +try:
 +all
 
 I thinks this should be any instead of all.
 
 +except NameError:
 +pass # Python  2.5
 +else:
 +assert any([True, True, True]) == True
 +assert any([True, False, True]) == True
 +assert any([False, False, False]) == False
 f13()
 
 Arguably, if there's an all, there will be any, so it will work  
 the same, but looks a little strange to try for all and then use  
 any in assertion.
 
 Best regards,
 
   Zvezdan
 


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Re: [Zope-dev] Zope Tests: 4 OK, 1 Failed

2008-10-27 Thread Tres Seaver
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Tres Seaver wrote:
 Subject: FAILED (failures=3, errors=4) : Zope-trunk Python-2.4.4 : Linux
 From: Zope Tests
 Date: Sun Oct 26 22:03:25 EDT 2008
 URL: http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope-tests/2008-October/010375.html
 
 Sidnei,
 
 First, thanks for working to get the GSoC 2.5 / 2.6 stuff landed!
 
 Second, I'm pretty sure that last night's failures are all due to
 landing the GSoC branch, as you were the only person checking into the
 Zope2 trunk yesterday:
 
  - AccessControl.tests.testZopeGuards:  I have fixed these tests to
pass under Python 2.4 ('all', 'any' arent in builtins;  'max' and
'min' don't take a 'key' argument).
 
  - Products.Five.browser.tests.resource_ftest.txt  I have narrowed
these failures down to OFS.SimpleItem: if I revert the change to
'raise_standardErrorMessage', those tests pass again.  I'm not
confident, however, that I can figure out why they are breaking.
 
  - zope.testbrowser.fixed-bugs.txt:  I haven't gotten to these.
 
 I think we need to keep the trunk passing under Python 2.4 for now, and
 we need to be running 'test.py --all' to flush out the changes.  Can you
 look at the rest here?

Hmm, the same tests break on Python 2.5 as well.  Note that these fail
during the functional tests, and only if we run all tests::

  $ /path/to/python2.5 test.py --all

Running just the tests in Products.Five succeeds::

  $ /path/to/python2.5 test.py --all -s Products.Five

Maybe we have a bad layer lying around?


Tres.
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