Re: [Zope3-dev] Zope 3.4 release
Christian Theune wrote: Hi, we (Jim, Nathan, Michael and me) did some planning on how we're going to release Zope 3.4 and the future Zope 3 releases that are based on eggs. I tried to catch up and did my writing here: http://wiki.zope.org/zope3/DefiningZope34Release There is also a project in the repository in Zope3.buildout that tries to implement the proposal and is a work in progress that doesn't work right now. I think we need not to mimic the zpkg based release for 3.4, rather we should use zpkg for this release also. Because, - there is no particular advantage for mimicking zpkg based release using zc.buildout - we are gradually moving towards an egg based releases - applications are better to build using zc.buildout - our 3.4 alpha 1 release date is approaching, we follow time-based release ! (And our policy is to drop a feature, if it's not ready at time, is it?) In addition to this zpkg based release, we can release all eggs (as mentioned in the proposal) and make it available for download from a location. I think we are going to stop current way of releasing Zope 3 sooner or later, so we should advocate the use of eggs and zc.buildout for building and deploying Zope 3 applications. Regards, Baiju M ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Zope 3.4 release
On 3/23/07, Baiju M [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think we need not to mimic the zpkg based release for 3.4, rather we should use zpkg for this release also. ... - our 3.4 alpha 1 release date is approaching, we follow time-based release ! But zpkg-based releases aren't a feature; it's just mechanism. Anything that let's us retire zpkg all the associated cruft is a good thing. I think we are going to stop current way of releasing Zope 3 sooner or later, so we should advocate the use of eggs and zc.buildout for building and deploying Zope 3 applications. Indeed; I don't actually expect to worry about Zope 3 releases again; that's entirely a PR thing at this point. -Fred -- Fred L. Drake, Jr.fdrake at gmail.com Every sin is the result of a collaboration. --Lucius Annaeus Seneca ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Zope3-dev] Some thoughts for future releases of Zope 3
Hi, (Please correct me, if I am wrong) All eggs of a particular release will be available from : http://download.zope.org/distribution/zope3/ . Here is some future locations: 3.4.0 - distribution/zope3/3.4.0 3.4.1 - distribution/zope3/3.4.1 3.5.0 - distribution/zope3/3.5.0 For 3.4.0 all individual packages will be having a unique version number (3.4.0), but this won't be the case for 3.5.0, in Zope 3.5.0 zope.interface may be still in 3.4.0 version. In PyPI we will put all latest stable releases of individual packages, so a package in PyPI may be a newer version compared to the latest Zope 3 release. Then, to install a particular Zope 3 release, user should always use download.zope.org as eggs location (--find-links option in easy_install or zc.buildout). We *should* make 'zpkg' based releases, until 3.6 release. Anything to add here? Regards, Baiju M ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Zope 3.4 release
Hi, Am Freitag, den 23.03.2007, 04:15 -0400 schrieb Fred Drake: On 3/23/07, Baiju M [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think we need not to mimic the zpkg based release for 3.4, rather we should use zpkg for this release also. ... - our 3.4 alpha 1 release date is approaching, we follow time-based release ! But zpkg-based releases aren't a feature; it's just mechanism. Anything that let's us retire zpkg all the associated cruft is a good thing. Right. However, I doubt, and Baiju thinks the same AFAICT, that we'll get it done. No reason to delay the release. I think we are going to stop current way of releasing Zope 3 sooner or later, so we should advocate the use of eggs and zc.buildout for building and deploying Zope 3 applications. Indeed; I don't actually expect to worry about Zope 3 releases again; that's entirely a PR thing at this point. Well. Almost. A set of eggs that are tested together has it's advantages as well. ;) OTOH you can do that for your specific app too. -- gocept gmbh co. kg - forsterstraße 29 - 06112 halle/saale - germany www.gocept.com - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - phone +49 345 122 9889 7 - fax +49 345 122 9889 1 - zope and plone consulting and development signature.asc Description: Dies ist ein digital signierter Nachrichtenteil ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Some thoughts for future releases of Zope 3
Hi, Am Freitag, den 23.03.2007, 14:00 +0530 schrieb Baiju M: Hi, (Please correct me, if I am wrong) All eggs of a particular release will be available from : http://download.zope.org/distribution/zope3/ . Here is some future locations: 3.4.0 - distribution/zope3/3.4.0 3.4.1 - distribution/zope3/3.4.1 3.5.0 - distribution/zope3/3.5.0 For 3.4.0 all individual packages will be having a unique version number (3.4.0), but this won't be the case for 3.5.0, in Zope 3.5.0 zope.interface may be still in 3.4.0 version. In PyPI we will put all latest stable releases of individual packages, so a package in PyPI may be a newer version compared to the latest Zope 3 release. Then, to install a particular Zope 3 release, user should always use download.zope.org as eggs location (--find-links option in easy_install or zc.buildout). I think we can have a meta-package for the Zope application that defines a dependency for all packages, some of those might still be 3.4.0 whilst others might be 3.5.1 etc. I don't think we really need the download areas to gather the eggs. We *should* make 'zpkg' based releases, until 3.6 release. Right. Maybe even longer, I don't know. We *really* have to start spreading the word on how to develop a Zope application with buildout if we want to retire our normal releases. We also have to think about the PR issues we're gonna face IMHO. We might decide to not do anything for PR, but we should have looked at the consequences and know what we're heading for. Christian -- gocept gmbh co. kg - forsterstraße 29 - 06112 halle/saale - germany www.gocept.com - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - phone +49 345 122 9889 7 - fax +49 345 122 9889 1 - zope and plone consulting and development signature.asc Description: Dies ist ein digital signierter Nachrichtenteil ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Zope 3.4 release
On 3/23/07, Christian Theune [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Right. However, I doubt, and Baiju thinks the same AFAICT, that we'll get it done. No reason to delay the release. Yes, that's fine. I've no idea what the release schedule is (and that's deliberate), so whatever works if it's a scheduling issue. Well. Almost. A set of eggs that are tested together has it's advantages as well. ;) OTOH you can do that for your specific app too. In fact, it's only interesting if the set of eggs is a subset of the eggs for the application. For me, much of the Zope 3 distribution is uninteresting. -Fred -- Fred L. Drake, Jr.fdrake at gmail.com Every sin is the result of a collaboration. --Lucius Annaeus Seneca ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Some thoughts for future releases of Zope 3
Christian Theune wrote: Hi, Am Freitag, den 23.03.2007, 14:00 +0530 schrieb Baiju M: For 3.4.0 all individual packages will be having a unique version number (3.4.0), but this won't be the case for 3.5.0, in Zope 3.5.0 zope.interface may be still in 3.4.0 version. In PyPI we will put all latest stable releases of individual packages, so a package in PyPI may be a newer version compared to the latest Zope 3 release. Then, to install a particular Zope 3 release, user should always use download.zope.org as eggs location (--find-links option in easy_install or zc.buildout). I think we can have a meta-package for the Zope application that defines a dependency for all packages, some of those might still be 3.4.0 whilst others might be 3.5.1 etc. I don't think we really need the download areas to gather the eggs. I think putting all eggs in one place for each release will be useful for those who make offline installation/deploy. So they can easily make use the 'download-cache' and 'install-from-cache' options of zc.buildout without any hurdle. Regards, Baiju M ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Some thoughts for future releases of Zope 3
Hi, Am Freitag, den 23.03.2007, 14:43 +0530 schrieb Baiju M: I think putting all eggs in one place for each release will be useful for those who make offline installation/deploy. So they can easily make use the 'download-cache' and 'install-from-cache' options of zc.buildout without any hurdle. I don't think that this requires a central download location for each release. -- gocept gmbh co. kg - forsterstraße 29 - 06112 halle/saale - germany www.gocept.com - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - phone +49 345 122 9889 7 - fax +49 345 122 9889 1 - zope and plone consulting and development signature.asc Description: Dies ist ein digital signierter Nachrichtenteil ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Some thoughts for future releases of Zope 3
Christian Theune wrote: Hi, Am Freitag, den 23.03.2007, 14:43 +0530 schrieb Baiju M: I think putting all eggs in one place for each release will be useful for those who make offline installation/deploy. So they can easily make use the 'download-cache' and 'install-from-cache' options of zc.buildout without any hurdle. I don't think that this requires a central download location for each release. Yes, but users can grab all packages from one location and put together along with their packages. Some other egg based web frameworks follows this line, for example Pylons has a location like this: http://pylonshq.com/download/0.9.2 , http://pylonshq.com/download/0.9.3 , http://pylonshq.com/download/0.9.4 And this is a good way for archiving our upcoming releases. And another thing is that we need not to solely depend on PyPI. Regards, Baiju M ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Zope 3.4 release
On Mar 23, 2007, at 4:12 AM, Baiju M wrote: Christian Theune wrote: Hi, we (Jim, Nathan, Michael and me) did some planning on how we're going to release Zope 3.4 and the future Zope 3 releases that are based on eggs. I tried to catch up and did my writing here: http://wiki.zope.org/zope3/DefiningZope34Release There is also a project in the repository in Zope3.buildout that tries to implement the proposal and is a work in progress that doesn't work right now. I think we need not to mimic the zpkg based release for 3.4, rather we should use zpkg for this release also. Minor note: No one is talking about mimicking a zpkg release. The plan was to switch from using zpkg to eggs to create releases. Unfortunately, I don't think we have time to do this now, although I think we are getting close. :( Because, - there is no particular advantage for mimicking zpkg based release using zc.buildout If the purpose of the release is purely political, then I agree. - we are gradually moving towards an egg based releases - applications are better to build using zc.buildout - our 3.4 alpha 1 release date is approaching, we follow time- based release ! Is there a roadmap somewhere? It seems that something should be recorded at: http://wiki.zope.org/zope3/Downloads Who is in charge of the 3.4 release? (And our policy is to drop a feature, if it's not ready at time, is it?) Yup. In addition to this zpkg based release, we can release all eggs (as mentioned in the proposal) and make it available for download from a location. I think these 2 activities should not be linked. Perhaps this should be a goal of 3.5 release. I want to get to the point where the packages have their own release cycles independent of Zope 3 releases. For example, I want to stop giving eggs 3.x releases numbers just because the package was included in a 3.x release. Assuming that someone decides to move forward with 3.4 release sans eggification, then I'd like to decouple the 3.4 release from the eggification efforts. I think we are going to stop current way of releasing Zope 3 sooner or later, so we should advocate the use of eggs and zc.buildout for building and deploying Zope 3 applications. Yup, but I don't think we're there yet. What we have now, thanks to your effort and efforts of others, is a proof of concept. There are lots of issues that need to be addressed before we can move this effort off of the bleeding edge, including: - We need more mature eggs that we have now. Many of our eggs aren't ready for independent release. Dependencies are a mess and I think it's going to take a good bit of work to clean the dependencies up. - We need to figure out what the distribution mechanism will be. - PyPI in it's current form is less than ideal, in at least a couple of ways: - It is too slow. - It's default policy of hiding old distributions makes it impractical to specify specific distributions in buildouts for repeatability. Both of these problems can be fixed, but it will take a bit of effort. I have necessary access, but not sufficient time. I'm most worried about support for old versions and I think this can be addressed through a planned setuptools change. - I worry that download.zope.com/distribution is too uncontrolled. Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714 http://www.python.org Zope Corporationhttp://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Eggification (Re: [Zope3-dev] Zope 3.4 release)
On Mar 23, 2007, at 8:41 AM, Jim Fulton wrote: ... Dependencies are a mess and I think it's going to take a good bit of work to clean the dependencies up. I should elaborate a bit. The issue isn't (just) that we've specified dependencies incorrectly, although that is often the case, but that the dependencies are insane. For example, zope.component depends on most of Zope 3. I think fixing many of these issues will take some re-factoring. I don't think using extras (as I did for zope.component) is a good solution. (I'll expand on why I don't think extras are a good solution in a separate note.) Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714 http://www.python.org Zope Corporationhttp://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Zope 3.4 release
Am Freitag, den 23.03.2007, 08:41 -0400 schrieb Jim Fulton: Minor note: No one is talking about mimicking a zpkg release. The plan was to switch from using zpkg to eggs to create releases. Unfortunately, I don't think we have time to do this now, although I think we are getting close. :( Ack. :( I'd be fine with dropping an egg-based release though. We still have everything in place to make a zpkg-based release happen as before. Because, - there is no particular advantage for mimicking zpkg based release using zc.buildout If the purpose of the release is purely political, then I agree. - we are gradually moving towards an egg based releases - applications are better to build using zc.buildout - our 3.4 alpha 1 release date is approaching, we follow time- based release ! Is there a roadmap somewhere? Yes. Both in the wiki (wiki.zope.org/zope3) and on launchpad. It seems that something should be recorded at: http://wiki.zope.org/zope3/Downloads Who is in charge of the 3.4 release? /me (And our policy is to drop a feature, if it's not ready at time, is it?) Yup. In addition to this zpkg based release, we can release all eggs (as mentioned in the proposal) and make it available for download from a location. I think these 2 activities should not be linked. Perhaps this should be a goal of 3.5 release. I agree. I want to get to the point where the packages have their own release cycles independent of Zope 3 releases. For example, I want to stop giving eggs 3.x releases numbers just because the package was included in a 3.x release. Just to make this explicit: we've gotta stick with the version numbers that we gave out already, right? Assuming that someone decides to move forward with 3.4 release sans eggification, then I'd like to decouple the 3.4 release from the eggification efforts. I agree here as well. Does that mean we will not advertise the availability of the Zope 3.4 code as eggs from the release information? I think we are going to stop current way of releasing Zope 3 sooner or later, so we should advocate the use of eggs and zc.buildout for building and deploying Zope 3 applications. Yup, but I don't think we're there yet. What we have now, thanks to your effort and efforts of others, is a proof of concept. There are lots of issues that need to be addressed before we can move this effort off of the bleeding edge, including: - We need more mature eggs that we have now. Many of our eggs aren't ready for independent release. Dependencies are a mess and I think it's going to take a good bit of work to clean the dependencies up. - We need to figure out what the distribution mechanism will be. - PyPI in it's current form is less than ideal, in at least a couple of ways: - It is too slow. - It's default policy of hiding old distributions makes it impractical to specify specific distributions in buildouts for repeatability. Both of these problems can be fixed, but it will take a bit of effort. I have necessary access, but not sufficient time. I'm most worried about support for old versions and I think this can be addressed through a planned setuptools change. - I worry that download.zope.com/distribution is too uncontrolled. We saw what happened when I started using it at the sprint. ;) Low-tech is good, but at least some of the current limitations are impractical unfortunately. Christian -- gocept gmbh co. kg - forsterstraße 29 - 06112 halle/saale - germany www.gocept.com - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - phone +49 345 122 9889 7 - fax +49 345 122 9889 1 - zope and plone consulting and development signature.asc Description: Dies ist ein digital signierter Nachrichtenteil ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Zope 3.4 release
On Mar 23, 2007, at 10:28 AM, Christian Theune wrote: Am Freitag, den 23.03.2007, 08:41 -0400 schrieb Jim Fulton: ... Is there a roadmap somewhere? Yes. Both in the wiki (wiki.zope.org/zope3) and on launchpad. Care to share a URL? It seems that something should be recorded at: http://wiki.zope.org/zope3/Downloads And link it in here? Who is in charge of the 3.4 release? /me Cool. :) I want to get to the point where the packages have their own release cycles independent of Zope 3 releases. For example, I want to stop giving eggs 3.x releases numbers just because the package was included in a 3.x release. Just to make this explicit: we've gotta stick with the version numbers that we gave out already, right? It's complicated. :) We have lots of choices. As long as the code for most packages actually lives in the Zope 3 svn tree, I think the version numbers have to be linked. I don't think we want to move them out of the Zope 3 tree until we have a good story for working on Zope 3 itself, although, that could be debated. We also need to worry about the (many) people who use checkouts for their own development. Getting externals for everything would be really annoying. I expect that in the next few weeks, we (ZC) will switch to using eggs rather than checkouts. When we've managed to do that, I'll be more comfortable telling other people that they should do it. :) Assuming that someone decides to move forward with 3.4 release sans eggification, then I'd like to decouple the 3.4 release from the eggification efforts. I agree here as well. Does that mean we will not advertise the availability of the Zope 3.4 code as eggs from the release information? Yes. I doubt they will be truly usable as eggs anyway. Independent of the 3.4 release, I think we should avoid advertising the Zope 3 eggs until we've whipped them into shape. (So to speak ;) - I worry that download.zope.com/distribution is too uncontrolled. We saw what happened when I started using it at the sprint. ;) Low- tech is good, but at least some of the current limitations are impractical unfortunately. They are practical for supporting current experimentation, I think, but I think we need something better to move beyond the current experimental stage. Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714 http://www.python.org Zope Corporationhttp://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Zope3-dev] Re: Some thoughts for future releases of Zope 3
Christian Theune wrote: All eggs of a particular release will be available from : http://download.zope.org/distribution/zope3/ . Here is some future locations: 3.4.0 - distribution/zope3/3.4.0 3.4.1 - distribution/zope3/3.4.1 3.5.0 - distribution/zope3/3.5.0 For 3.4.0 all individual packages will be having a unique version number (3.4.0), but this won't be the case for 3.5.0, in Zope 3.5.0 zope.interface may be still in 3.4.0 version. In PyPI we will put all latest stable releases of individual packages, so a package in PyPI may be a newer version compared to the latest Zope 3 release. Then, to install a particular Zope 3 release, user should always use download.zope.org as eggs location (--find-links option in easy_install or zc.buildout). I think we can have a meta-package for the Zope application that defines a dependency for all packages, some of those might still be 3.4.0 whilst others might be 3.5.1 etc. I don't think we really need the download areas to gather the eggs. We *should* make 'zpkg' based releases, until 3.6 release. Right. Maybe even longer, I don't know. -1 We *should* be making releases that you install using configure; make; make install, but they don't necessarily have to use zpkg. I would prefer if they'd install eggs. We *really* have to start spreading the word on how to develop a Zope application with buildout if we want to retire our normal releases. -0 Documenting buildout is one thing, eggifying Zope another. I personally don't think we should be tying Zope 3 developers to buildout. It's a nice tool for some things, for others it's not. What we *should* do is teach people how to use an eggified Zope. We also have to think about the PR issues we're gonna face IMHO. We might decide to not do anything for PR, but we should have looked at the consequences and know what we're heading for. Not sure what that means. -- http://worldcookery.com -- Professional Zope documentation and training ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
