Re: Re(2): "Goodbye 4D Write" email

[Jody Bevan via 4D_Tech]

I will add my 2 cents worth here too. I agree with Jeff.

As a previous post noted a big cause of this problem was Apple. They forced 
change on us, and on 4D. I was involved in an industry where each month brought 
new requirements that were forced upon us by various governments that we had to 
implement and show in testing that we conformed. Now that was a real juggling 
act with all that was going on with 4D, Microsoft, and Apple in a high pressure 
game. We were doing it, and there were few that were and they had some industry 
giant tools.

I really appreciate where 4D is heading with their product line. A lot of good 
stuff has come out in the 4 years I was able to sit on the sideline. 
Fortunately for me I could, and am ramping up again and my hope is that this 
will meld with a maturing of all the new products that 4D is working on. Of 
course I also hope that Microsoft and Apple will not upset the ‘Apple Cart’ yet 
again.

This discussion is not new in the 4D world. In the years since version 2.0.10 
(was that 1988?) that I started with 4D I have tried out other tools to met 
various needs. As it turns out we eventually left most of those tools as they 
too could not manage the juggling act of revenue - Apple - Windows - 32 to 
64bit etc.

I understand and feel the pain of all involved including those at 4D. 
Technology is a much different world than raising milking goats, fruit, and 
dogs that I spend much of my time in now.

Jody


> On Feb 2, 2018, at 7:12 AM, Jeffrey Kain via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> On the other hand, the majority who don't need to integrate word processing 
> are probably thinking "why the heck are they spending so much time and 
> resources trying to reinvent word processing when they could be working on 
> "?
> 
> I can see both points of view, but for 4D Write I do think 4D has shown a 
> steady dedication and commitment to taking an ancient tool and moving it 
> forward into current technology. That email wording was probably a mistake 
> though -- unless 4D has decided that 32 bit applications are ending with v16 
> (which I don't think is the case).
> 
> --
> Jeffrey Kain
> jeffrey.k...@gmail.com
> 

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Re: Re(2): "Goodbye 4D Write" email

[Jeffrey Kain via 4D_Tech]

I think 32-bit applications will live on a lot longer than 2 years on Windows.  
I haven't read anything that even hints that Microsoft is thinking about ending 
32-bit application support.  Heck, they still support 16-bit apps on 32-bit 
Windows.

I would expect 32-bit versions of Windows operating systems to disappear 
someday, but that's different from not supporting 32-bit applications.

Apple, on the other hand well, that's why we all love Apple so much.  Out 
with old, in with the new!

--
Jeffrey Kain
jeffrey.k...@gmail.com


> On Feb 2, 2018, at 11:21 AM, Tim Nevels via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> We still have maybe 2 years before it becomes a pressing concern when macOS 
> and Windows end support for 32bit applications.

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Re(2): "Goodbye 4D Write" email

[Tim Nevels via 4D_Tech]

On Feb 2, 2018, at 10:09 AM, Don Lapin wrote:

> Please let us know what you find out, Tim. From here it's looking like there 
> was never any intention of creating anything but a fig leaf.


Hi Don,

I definitely will. I’m sure the end result of 4D Write Pro will be a big 
improvement over the very aged plugin. Probably a few features lost, but many 
more added. Plus it will be positioned to last for another 20 years in its 
current iteration. 

Remember that there is no big hurry to move to 4D Write Pro. We still have 
maybe 2 years before it becomes a pressing concern when macOS and Windows end 
support for 32bit applications.

From my perspective it is only “required” if you want to run 64bit 4D client 
right now. If you can hang on to 32bit 4D client you should be able to wait 
until 4D Write Pro is “completed’ and “ready” for all purpose use. 

Tim

Tim Nevels 
timnev...@mac.com 
Innovative Solutions
785-749-3444


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Re: Re(2): "Goodbye 4D Write" email

[Jeffrey Kain via 4D_Tech]

On the other hand, the majority who don't need to integrate word processing are 
probably thinking "why the heck are they spending so much time and resources 
trying to reinvent word processing when they could be working on "?

I can see both points of view, but for 4D Write I do think 4D has shown a 
steady dedication and commitment to taking an ancient tool and moving it 
forward into current technology. That email wording was probably a mistake 
though -- unless 4D has decided that 32 bit applications are ending with v16 
(which I don't think is the case).

--
Jeffrey Kain
jeffrey.k...@gmail.com




> On Feb 2, 2018, at 6:41 AM, Don Lapin via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> Please let us know what you find out, Tim. From here it's looking like there 
> was never any intention of creating anything but a fig leaf.

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Re(2): "Goodbye 4D Write" email

[Don Lapin via 4D_Tech]

Please let us know what you find out, Tim. From here it's looking like there 
was never any intention of creating anything but a fig leaf.

Thanks,
Don


>The big question now is, what is still on that list of things the 4D
>Write Plugin can do that 4D Write Pro still cannot do? If there is a
>feature that is super hard to implement, and nobody uses or asked for
>it, why would they want to spend time implementing it? So I'm expecting
>there to be a short list of things 4D Write Pro will not do that 4D
>Write Plugin does. Emphasis SHORT LIST.
>
>So at this year's 4D Summit I am going to seek out the 4D Write Pro
>engineers and ask them specifically for a list of features 4D Write Pro
>will not provide that 4D Write Plugin does. Will they say "the list is
>empty we are are implementing everything"? Doubtful. Hopefully that list
>will not contain anything that I need. If it does, then I'll have to
>lobby, and lobby hard, for them to add the features I need to 4D Write Pro.

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Re: Re(2): "Goodbye 4D Write" email

[Arnaud de Montard via 4D_Tech]

> Le 1 févr. 2018 à 02:28, Don Lapin via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> a écrit 
> :
> 
> Hi Brian,
> 
> You did not answer the question regarding whether 4D will continue to work 
> with 4D Write (the regular version, not the Pro). That's my primary concern 
> at the moment. 

Hi Don, 
I heard that in last summit in Paris (on stage, sounds "official"): there will 
never be a 4d write 64bits, 4d write is no longer supported, go to WP, we do 
our best to make it better every day. 
So the response to your question is in another: "how many time can I still use 
32b 4D apps". Apple said next MacOS won't.  

-- 
Arnaud de Montard 




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Re(2): "Goodbye 4D Write" email

[Don Lapin via 4D_Tech]

Hi Alfonso,

I agree with most of what you state here. My customers for this application are 
on Windows, so I'm not as concerned about the 64-bit thing. Apple's always 
dropping "last year's" technology, but Windows maintains good compatibility, 
even with their 64-bit systems.

Because the Write Pro product suffers from such a paucity of usefulness, I am 
hoping that they will at least allow plain 4D Write to run as a 32-bit plug in. 
Under present circumstances a "Goodbye 4D Write" email today seemed a bit 
off-key.

Thanks for responding,
Don


>Hi Don,
>
>I agree with you that 4D Write PRO can't replace today 4D Write.
>But, forget trying that 4D mantain 4D Write. Because MacOs High Sierra 
>is the last Mac Os working compatible 32 bits. So, all applications must 
>be 64 bits, in the future.
>4D Write PRO borned 64 bits for that reason.
>We have to ask 4D to get 4D Write PRO as close to 4D Write (commands), 
>as soon as possible.
>There are great commands in 4D Write like "WR Direct find" . Would it be 
>on 4D Write PRO ?
>
>Idemsoft
>Alfonso

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Re(2): "Goodbye 4D Write" email

[Don Lapin via 4D_Tech]

Hi Brian,

You did not answer the question regarding whether 4D will continue to work with 
4D Write (the regular version, not the Pro). That's my primary concern at the 
moment. 

Since my rep told me that it would continue to work at the last developer event 
in San Jose, I don't understand why I would be getting a "Goodbye" email at 
this point. Was he wrong? Did I understand him incorrectly? This product is 
based on the functionality and capability of 4D Write, as painful as it was to 
write those lines of code.

With regard to Pro, last I looked it had a ruler which blocks a much larger 
amount of the writing area (*thick* vertically), making the writing area too 
small on detailed forms. 

The existing 4D Write menus and toolbar use about 2.5 cm on the form, leaving 
about 8.5 cm of useful area (before zoom) for composing. The example you linked 
to, of a 4D Write Pro toolbar and menu combination, is about twice as thick. I 
think I have seen that example before.

How would someone be able to use a word processing area over half of which is 
taken over by those thick elements? 

Fold in:
 
- the apparent absence of the rich command set available in 4D Write, 
particularly commands involving procedural generation of forms and style sheets;
- the absence of control for placing graphics on forms;
- the absence of Word-compatible style sheets;
- the absence of a Word export;

...what is left that's of any utility?

Given how intuitive the existing 4D Write interface is for the average, 
word-processing-type user, why would 4D abandon that? Why do the 4D developers, 
rather than the developers of 4D, need to spend hours trying to reproduce a 
detailed, compact interface that was already in the product?  

Please find some answers if you can. A negative answer to the first one would 
make a product that I have spent most of my time working on since early 2015 
become useless in new versions of 4d. These are all Windows users, so I have no 
interest in 64-bit stuff.


Thank you for responding, 
Don



>Hi Don,
>
>If you haven't already, please add your concern about "Export to MS
>Word" to the 4D Forum where the Product team can see it and respond.
>Here is a feature request you can up-vote:
>
>http://forums.4d.com/Post/EN/20813501/1/20814772#20814772
>
>Among the posts linked in the email today is one that gives example code
>to build a toolbar similar to the one in 4D Write:
>
>https://blog.4d.com/4d-write-like-toolbar-example-for-4d-write-pro/
>
>We are working to make sure you and the 4D community are aware of the
>resources already available by bundling 4D Write Pro related info together.
>
>my very best
>
>-Brian
>
>
>
>   
>Brian Young
>Technical Marketing Manager
>Telephone :+1-408-557-4626
>Email :byo...@4d.com
>Web :  www.4D.com  
>4D inc
>95 S. Market Street, Suite #240
>95113 San Jose - United States
>Standard : +1-408-557-4600
>Fax :  +1-408-271-5080
> 
>On Jan 31, 2018, at 12:59 PM, Don Lapin via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.
>4d.com> wrote:
>
>Did anyone else get this "Goodbye 4D Write" email today?
>
>I was told by my rep that 4D Write would continue to work with future
>versions of the program. I have over 200 customers on a 4D Write-based
>application. Thousands of lines of code that procedurally assemble long
>OSHA, Canadian, and EU chemical compliance-related documents. Complete
>with Word-compatible style sheets and the export directly into the Word
>(.doc) format. It's one of our biggest selling points compared to the
>competition. 
>
>When I last looked at their so-called "Pro" version, it had a tiny
>fraction of the capability of 4D Write, and a clunky, witless widget
>interface that won't even fit on my forms. No Word export. After all
>time that they have taken to make a replacement, they came up with this.
>
>Am I not up to speed with progress on the "pro" version? Does it have a
>normal interface again? Can it procedurally assemble documents with Word
>style sheets and a Word export?
>
>Please let me know if you know more, or if I am mistaken.
>
>Thanks,
>Don
>
>
>
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