Re: [9fans] What are you using Plan 9 for?
One of the first systems that I could actually touch was a 68K/S100 system back in early '80s; it ran a unix-like OS. It was made by a Seattle area company named Empirical Research Group. The CPU board had Forth in ROM. I was lucky enough to witness one of the designers perform some serious diagnostics on other boards in the system using only the CPU/Forth. I don't think they were the first to come up with this idea. On Wed, Jun 20, 2018 at 10:39 PM Kurt H Maier wrote: > On Wed, Jun 20, 2018 at 10:35:42PM +0100, Ethan A. Gardener wrote: > > > > a sort of operating system where the primary interface to all tasks is > > a Forth interpreter. > > I think we've talked about this in another venue some years back, but I > often thing of the OpenFirmware implementation used by the OLPC XO-1 > laptop. Instead of a BIOS or UEFI or linux trash in their stead, the > system was managed by an OpenFirmware installation, much of which was > written in Forth, and whose primary interface was a Forth shell. This > environment had complete access to the hardware of the system, which > was used by the project to create really comprehensive hardware > diagnostics tools. > > I mostly used it for screwing around, but it was fairly complete; it > supported the wifi hardware and the webcam, and I often thought I'd like > a computer that just booted into this environment and stayed there. I'm > glad to hear you're still experimenting along these lines. There's a > lot of value in a system whose primary interface is the programming > environment. I work with computers because of the Commodore VIC-20... > and I wonder if I'd have ever given a damn about the field if my first > exposure to computers involved a Modern User Experience. > > khM > >
Re: [9fans] What are you using Plan 9 for?
On Jun 21, 2018, at 8:23 AM, Ethan A. Gardener wrote: > > Thanks! I don't know APL at all, beyond the fact that its need for a > graphical (or at least sophisticated) display held it back in the past. I > should probably look into it now, I'm sure it would save me from making some > mistakes in my design. Languages j, k & q are ascii only. K is quite minimalist (compared to APL & j). I quite like Scheme, k and plan9 for their minimalist aesthetics. Arthur Whitney, k’s designer, had told me he was making it run on bare metal. He was muttering about how Linux just gets in the way! Though I don’t know if he actually did that. Another crazy bare metal tale: A few years before Eben Upton came up with Raspberry Pi, he had ported cpython to run on the videocore on a GPU only chip (bcm2707) using custom software hackery. Using python like BASIC is a great idea! Personally I’d prefer something like k, Scheme, python or lua (and not forth) to boot into. I am admire forth but I’m not a fan of *programming* in stack languages!
Re: [9fans] What are you using Plan 9 for?
On Thu, Jun 21, 2018, at 6:39 AM, Kurt H Maier wrote: > On Wed, Jun 20, 2018 at 10:35:42PM +0100, Ethan A. Gardener wrote: > > > > a sort of operating system where the primary interface to all tasks is > > a Forth interpreter. > > I think we've talked about this in another venue some years back, but I > often thing of the OpenFirmware implementation used by the OLPC XO-1 > laptop. Instead of a BIOS or UEFI or linux trash in their stead, the > system was managed by an OpenFirmware installation, much of which was > written in Forth, and whose primary interface was a Forth shell. This > environment had complete access to the hardware of the system, which > was used by the project to create really comprehensive hardware > diagnostics tools. I do too. My Mac just boots to OpenFirmware now. It's a bit broken, being early Apple OFw, but that was what prompted me to start work -- it needs a text editor. OFw is an ANS Forth, and I'm working with the goal of running on multiple such ANS Forth platforms. > > I mostly used it for screwing around, but it was fairly complete; it > supported the wifi hardware and the webcam, and I often thought I'd like > a computer that just booted into this environment and stayed there. I'm > glad to hear you're still experimenting along these lines. Thanks! > There's a > lot of value in a system whose primary interface is the programming > environment. I work with computers because of the Commodore VIC-20... > and I wonder if I'd have ever given a damn about the field if my first > exposure to computers involved a Modern User Experience. I haven't stopped to wonder exactly that, but I think I would have hated them. I was brought up on the idea that computers existed to be programmed, so I wasn't happy when Windows shipped without a programming language outside the DOS prompt, or later at all. I might have gone hunting for "a real computer"! :) It also took me years to get used to the mouse, and longer to get used to menus. It probably didn't help that I didn't have a decent desk for my first Atari ST, and GEM is *terrible!* Anyway, I love this quote: > Then I discovered girls and cars and didn't get back into computers until the > early 90s only to discover that there was no longer a computer that was > READY> in 1.2 seconds and would only do exactly what it was told exactly when > it was told as fast as it could...Nope, by then the spinning hourglass had > been invented and the world has been riveted to their not-as-big-as-a-tv > screen, the scowl lines of struggle on their foreheads, one hand tied to a > mouse, the other fingers tapping...but conflict obviously was what America > needed [...] It's in the comments here: https://www.classic-computers.org.nz/collection/atari-400.htm That 1.2 seconds was the time it took an Atari 400 to check for a disk drive. Windows 7 takes about 50 times as long to 'install' a USB keyboard! It's not even like Atari's peripheral bus was overly simple; it supported almost all peripherals with a common protocol, so I think of it as an early USB. -- The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne. -- Chaucer
Re: [9fans] What are you using Plan 9 for?
On Thu, Jun 21, 2018, at 5:49 AM, Bakul Shah wrote: > On Thu, 21 Jun 2018 05:58:42 +0200 Lucio De Re wrote: > Lucio De Re writes: > > On 6/20/18, Ethan A. Gardener wrote: > > > [ ... ] Most of it is going into game scripting at the moment, but on the > > > b > > ack > > > burner is a Forth-based project; a sort of operating system where the > > > primary interface to all tasks is a Forth interpreter. [ ... ] > > > > Bakul may not agree, but that sounds like a novel take on APL. > > Different underlying syntax, but conceptually quite similar. Forth is > > one of those things that happened while I wasn't watching, so I'm not > > at all familiar with it, so it makes sense for me to use the model I > > know, but this sounds quite intriguing. > > As a matter of fact some APLers are quite fascinated with > "concatenative" languages like Forth, Joy, Factor etc.! Interesting! > > > Do you know APL and/or any of its derivatives? You'd bit a better > > judge. The idea of the full interpreter at the command line is a > > powerful one and APL's one liners handle much better the shortcomings > > of any Unix shell's regarding multi-line constructs. > > There are some conceptual similarities between stream > programming using shell pipelines and array programing using > APL/j/k/q. Array programming is richer as you can pass many > different things, not just character streams. It's very much what I've been hoping to achieve, then. I'll definitely look into it. -- The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne. -- Chaucer
Re: [9fans] What are you using Plan 9 for?
On Thu, Jun 21, 2018, at 4:58 AM, Lucio De Re wrote: > On 6/20/18, Ethan A. Gardener wrote: > > [ ... ] Most of it is going into game scripting at the moment, but on the > > back > > burner is a Forth-based project; a sort of operating system where the > > primary interface to all tasks is a Forth interpreter. [ ... ] > > Bakul may not agree, but that sounds like a novel take on APL. > Different underlying syntax, but conceptually quite similar. I knew it must have been done before, but APL is one of the many things I never got around to looking into. > Forth is > one of those things that happened while I wasn't watching, so I'm not > at all familiar with it, so it makes sense for me to use the model I > know, but this sounds quite intriguing. > > Do you know APL and/or any of its derivatives? You'd bit a better > judge. The idea of the full interpreter at the command line is a > powerful one and APL's one liners handle much better the shortcomings > of any Unix shell's regarding multi-line constructs. > > It would interesting to explore your particular take on this and place > it in a broader context. Thanks! I don't know APL at all, beyond the fact that its need for a graphical (or at least sophisticated) display held it back in the past. I should probably look into it now, I'm sure it would save me from making some mistakes in my design. > > Lucio. > -- The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne. -- Chaucer
Re: [9fans] What are you using Plan 9 for?
On Thu, Jun 21, 2018, at 8:20 AM, Mart Zirnask wrote: > On 21/06/2018, Ethan A. Gardener wrote: > >... I no longer have a desk of > > the right proportions to make mouse use comfortable, and can no longer bend > > over a laptop for hours on end, (a Thinkpad with 3 buttons,) text editing in > > Plan 9 has become unpleasant. I could patch Samterm and Rio to make it more > > comfortable, but it's not worth it. > > Would you mind elaborating on these ideas? Not at all. The first thing I would do is make it so Samterm keeps Sam's snarf buffer in sync with Rio's. I know it's sometimes useful to have the two separate buffers, but I so often want to copy between the editor and other windows that for me, it's an immense pain. An alternate, possibly better idea would be to add commands to Sam, equivalent to >cat>/dev/snarf and > Something I've been thinking along the same lines: > Inferno's shell allows one to add custom buttons to a shell window. > See more here: > http://debu.gs/entries/interlude-inferno-at-work A fun idea. :) Acme is similarly flexible, of course, and my Forth junk definitely will be. Remarking on parts of that article: "After that, starting up Inferno and hitting command-F (to run Inferno full-screen) makes the Mac look like an Inferno terminal. Perfect! I can lie to myself about what’s actually running on the computer." This is what I did with my Mac. :) I don't hate its native interface but it is a bit dumb. Before I ever started using Plan 9 on it, I tried Linux but it was more hassle than necessary, and some hardware didn't work. I put OS X back on, (10.4, one of the best versions,) used its control panel, wifi setup, and nothing else except the X server full-screen. It was the best of both worlds, I loved it! :) Later, I variously ran Inferno, P9P Acme, and drawterm full-screen, usually with an external mouse. (It doesn't do multi-touch.) > > This could be used to add shortcuts to common/more complicated text > editing tasks in Inferno's sh + sam -d. > I'm not sure if this would free one from using a 3-button mouse, though. Didn't someone praise modern trackpads in this thread? In the dim and distant past, (at least a whole year ago,) I recall a multitouch patch appearing for P9P. I think it entirely eliminated the need for a 3-button mouse. I'm sure it could be reasonably applied to Inferno, and to Drawterm if it hasn't already. -- I regret nothing except my new-found capitalization policies.
Re: [9fans] What are you using Plan 9 for?
i'm using plan9port (thanks, rsc) on linux for some 8 years now, for all coding - mostly low-brow web dev primarily Acme as IDE, Rc and awk for scripting the necessary tooling back when i was stuck at a corpo and had to use Windows on workstation, i installed p9p on one of build servers and ran Acme over LAN, through Xming there was no noticeable latency; it felt snappier than the corpo blessed IDE on windows my typical setup is: slackware linux, p9p, Acme maximized on the right screen. a few years ago i've coded a minimalist IRC client for Acme, was surprisingly comfy, but never followed it up another small use case was simplistic HTTP server for game map files coded in Rc; just enough to handle HTTP GET with Range header. was maybe 50 lines of shell. On Thu, Jun 21, 2018 at 11:06 AM, Rui Carmo wrote: > I’m late to the thread, but this seems like a good point to step in. > > I’m using plan9 on a quad-core Raspberry Pi as a sort of universal > terminal to manage some of my home machines, and recently deleted the > 9front VM I had on my home KVM server because even though the programming > model and Go support were nice, most of my day-to-day work is on cloud > solutions and there was no easy way to make those co-exist with Plan9 usage. > > There were a few discussions in this thread around dev stacks, browsers, > etc., and my $0.02 on that is that I could probably work in Plan9 on a > daily basis _if_ it had a usable (i.e., all the warts including JavaScript > and fonts) web browser, but that the lack of alignment (intended or > otherwise) with Linux tools and app stacks (SSH, Node, Python, Java) would > make it very painful. > > Running a remote browser (which is what I do often in that Pi) sort of > works, but you never get the full benefits you’d get with a native process. > And lack of access to modern app stacks renders the platform unattractive > for mainstream development work. > > But what killed it for me was the need for chording (mouse or keys). Using > a modern trackpad on a MacBook or Surface device is a quantum leap beyond > using a mouse for general use, and the lack of a modernised Rio with enough > thoughtful design to overcome the differences in philosophy is the first > barrier to continued usage. > > Acme is something I miss on occasion, but modern GUI editors compensate in > other ways (at the expense of resource usage, etc., but with a massive > boost in productivity for me). Also, I’m typing this on an iMac 5K with > nearly unmatched font rendering and legibility (the only thing that comes > close is the Surface Pro alongside it). Visuals matter a great deal. > > There is an unmatchable degree of purity in Plan9, but (even though the > diehards will stick their ground and claim it’s perfect to the exclusion of > other modern comforts) to coexist successfully it has to provide more > affordances. > > Kind Regards, > > R. > > > On 14 Jun 2018, at 04:53, 刘宇宝 wrote: > > > > Compared to "not for you", "don't care", "intend to not be successful", > I like more the topic of cat-v irc channel on freenode set by aiju: "fun > fact: you can use multiple operating systems at the same time". > > > > Certainly Plan 9 can't replace Linux/macOS/BSD/Windows, I'm still > curious its upper bound for a sensible daily usage, and the best practice > from you happy experienced Plan 9 users. > > > > I checked mail headers in this mailing list, seems all use Apple Mail, > iPhone Mail, WebMail with AJAX, Gmail(a lot), ProtonMail, these emails > went through Postfix and Exim servers, probably on Linux. > > > > In great harmony, we use kinds of operating system and kinds of software > on them. > > > > Regards, > > Yubao Liu > > > >> On Jun 14, 2018, at 10:53 AM, N. S. Montanaro wrote: > >> > >> I think a lot of people discover Plan 9 and want it to be something it > isn’t, rather than stumble upon it out of necessity. As the FQA says, “Plan > 9 is not for you." > > > > >
Re: [9fans] What are you using Plan 9 for?
I’m late to the thread, but this seems like a good point to step in. I’m using plan9 on a quad-core Raspberry Pi as a sort of universal terminal to manage some of my home machines, and recently deleted the 9front VM I had on my home KVM server because even though the programming model and Go support were nice, most of my day-to-day work is on cloud solutions and there was no easy way to make those co-exist with Plan9 usage. There were a few discussions in this thread around dev stacks, browsers, etc., and my $0.02 on that is that I could probably work in Plan9 on a daily basis _if_ it had a usable (i.e., all the warts including JavaScript and fonts) web browser, but that the lack of alignment (intended or otherwise) with Linux tools and app stacks (SSH, Node, Python, Java) would make it very painful. Running a remote browser (which is what I do often in that Pi) sort of works, but you never get the full benefits you’d get with a native process. And lack of access to modern app stacks renders the platform unattractive for mainstream development work. But what killed it for me was the need for chording (mouse or keys). Using a modern trackpad on a MacBook or Surface device is a quantum leap beyond using a mouse for general use, and the lack of a modernised Rio with enough thoughtful design to overcome the differences in philosophy is the first barrier to continued usage. Acme is something I miss on occasion, but modern GUI editors compensate in other ways (at the expense of resource usage, etc., but with a massive boost in productivity for me). Also, I’m typing this on an iMac 5K with nearly unmatched font rendering and legibility (the only thing that comes close is the Surface Pro alongside it). Visuals matter a great deal. There is an unmatchable degree of purity in Plan9, but (even though the diehards will stick their ground and claim it’s perfect to the exclusion of other modern comforts) to coexist successfully it has to provide more affordances. Kind Regards, R. > On 14 Jun 2018, at 04:53, 刘宇宝 wrote: > > Compared to "not for you", "don't care", "intend to not be successful", I > like more the topic of cat-v irc channel on freenode set by aiju: "fun fact: > you can use multiple operating systems at the same time". > > Certainly Plan 9 can't replace Linux/macOS/BSD/Windows, I'm still curious its > upper bound for a sensible daily usage, and the best practice from you happy > experienced Plan 9 users. > > I checked mail headers in this mailing list, seems all use Apple Mail, iPhone > Mail, WebMail with AJAX, Gmail(a lot), ProtonMail, these emails went through > Postfix and Exim servers, probably on Linux. > > In great harmony, we use kinds of operating system and kinds of software on > them. > > Regards, > Yubao Liu > >> On Jun 14, 2018, at 10:53 AM, N. S. Montanaro wrote: >> >> I think a lot of people discover Plan 9 and want it to be something it >> isn’t, rather than stumble upon it out of necessity. As the FQA says, “Plan >> 9 is not for you." >
Re: [9fans] What are you using Plan 9 for?
On 21/06/2018, Ethan A. Gardener wrote: >... I no longer have a desk of > the right proportions to make mouse use comfortable, and can no longer bend > over a laptop for hours on end, (a Thinkpad with 3 buttons,) text editing in > Plan 9 has become unpleasant. I could patch Samterm and Rio to make it more > comfortable, but it's not worth it. Would you mind elaborating on these ideas? Something I've been thinking along the same lines: Inferno's shell allows one to add custom buttons to a shell window. See more here: http://debu.gs/entries/interlude-inferno-at-work This could be used to add shortcuts to common/more complicated text editing tasks in Inferno's sh + sam -d. I'm not sure if this would free one from using a 3-button mouse, though. Mart
