eofminooka; tex hello.tex
This is TeX, Version 3.14159 (Web2C 7.2)
Works as documented. But the same with, say, core.texi, gives me an
error, presumably because the texinfo.tex macros are not preloaded.
So I need some advice on how to combine the two (or more) documents.
The texi2dvi script
The .texi file is not actually TeX.
[ ... ]
Sorry for not being helpful,
You were, pity about the delay. It's nice to have one's suspicions
confirmed.
++L
But lucio has had trouble.
That's because I am totally unfamiliar with TeX.
I guess I overstated the case a bit.
Sorry to have put you in the firing line.
++L
The original poster was asking what he could do,
and he's not the owner of the code in question.
Sorry, I missed the last point.
++L
I get, from /n/sources:
tar: can't open ape/X11/fonts/encodings/large/big5.eten-0.enc.gz:
'big5.eten-0.enc.gz' permission denied
tar: can't open ape/X11/fonts/encodings/large/big5hkscs-0.enc.gz:
'big5hkscs-0.enc.gz' permission denied
tar: can't open
I'm looking for a laptop that will run Plan 9 native and not sacrifice
too many of its features in the process. High resolution screen and
supported Wi-Fi (possibly add-on, in which case, please recommend a
product and a source) are particularly desirable assets, audio would
be nice.
I won't
3 buttons and a nipple not a touchpad
no Windows key :)
These are concrete assets. I know at least one other laptop user (I
have an old Compac Presario 900, he has a newer Acer or some such)
that manages to trigger the touchpad without touching it. Very, very
annoying. As for the Windows
Why don't we reach an agreement and start using the very
same format. I suggest keeping my mbox format but adapting upas/fs to
understand it, which is a good idea. But I'm open to suggestions.
... and use base64 encoding of attachment names so they can be
displayed correctly (by a clever
In any way, I'd still be converting my mail to the new format, because
of the convenience of having everything unpacked and ready to read,
and because of the space it's likely to be saving in venti.
It is unavoidable that once you have a permanent filesystem for mail
you'll also need the
i've not had a chance to look through the sources. is a windows port
feasible?
I haven't looked at anything at all, but I've also never seen such a
happy reception on this list. Please excuse the possible stupidity of
this question: is a Plan 9 port feasible?
++L
I haven't looked at anything at all, but I've also never seen such a
happy reception on this list. Please excuse the possible stupidity of
this question: is a Plan 9 port feasible?
Not with Plan 9 as it stands right now. The virtual memory
system is really not set up for page-at-a-time
It's fine, if you're fine with it ;-) Do you ever visit any AJAX enabled
websites? Do you consider AJAX a superfluous technology? Do you switch to
your other OS machine--or reboot your current machine--if and when you
visit GMail's pages (at least to enable IMAP access for the first time)?
Mozilla didn't create the web. The web created Mozilla.
And the Internet created the web? And the PC gave rise to Lotus
1-2-3?
Not necessarily. Nothing gave the Internet (here in South Africa) as
much a boost as Win'95. The Web wouldn't have been the same success
without Netscape. So there
... and any great travel plans to share?
Hardly a Brit and going via Italy, but I'll be there.
++L
Well, i don't think I am starting two timesync, ps a shows only one:
If Xen is anything to go by, time keeping is a problem in
virtualisation. And Erik is misguiding you :-)
Thing is, if timesync is wresting with the clock as it seems to do if
two instances are running, it does consume a lot
Sorry to bug this list, but I can't reach Erik any other way:
From 192.96.32.135:
traceroute to 69.55.170.73 (69.55.170.73), 64 hops max, 40 byte packets
1 192.96.32.129 1.012 ms 1.168 ms 0.898 ms
2 196.31.9.237 28.327 ms 16.686 ms 16.402 ms
3 196.31.249.69 21.114 ms 19.464 ms
heh. geez am i dopey. the problem was my misunderstanding of what the
irq=xx parts in plan9.ini do. bios decides the irq, plan9.ini tells
the kernel what the bios decided. that's my isa card mantra from now
on
I was going to suggest you base your configuration on what OpenBSD
determines. It
What do you have as $font in your lib/profile?
/lib/font/bit/lucidasans/typeunicode.7.font
/lib/font/bit/lucidasans/unicode.7.font
used specially in ACME, 1600x1200 on a 19 CRT.
++L
surely you don't own *all* the unsupported cards?
The growing integration makes you own at least one of each :-(
I got the impression that Ron's particular bugbear was the integrated
wireless adapter.
++L
if linux can use binary blobs, why can't plan9 do it too?
I think the BLOBs are platform specific, but I may be mistaken. If
I'm right, there's no way that we'd get any momentum to turn this
around.
But your earlier comment is extremely valid, too few people are
working on drivers. Without
Is there anyone out there who's gonna be in Volos and wants to
participate in a driver-writing BOF?
Me, kinda goes without saying.
++L
Are you serious?
I have a crazy idea: how about you actually write one?
I did, once. At least, I extended the PCNet driver for a particular
model no one else had catered for. There were a few inconsistencies
with expectations, so it never made prime time. Since then, the
memory model changed
I think the one of the BSD projects, OpenBSD perhaps, used to accept
hardware donations to this end. If we had a wayto get the hardware
and the technical documentation in the same place as the developers we
could get more hardware supported.
I believe this is a small factor, but also not an
What exactly is an anonymous poster?
Good question. I'll back down, let's encourage purely confrontational
postings. Cheers!
++L
i've got a lot of folk in the house who run whatever.
i'd really like to decommission the non-plan 9 machine.
the one thing i need from it is nat. (and i don't want
to be stuck fiddling more stuff on the dsl appliance.)
doing nat just isn't that hard. i just need to find the time.
this is
perhaps you forgot to read the part where i said
i don't think this would require anything from the
kernel; the ip would not need modification.
OK, I read it and promptly forgot it because none of the canonical
implementations of NAT I am familiar with seem to be able to operate
without kernel
I have no reason to believe Bell Labs' not-so-current
experimentation is any more saintly and free of blemish than the
previous. In time somebody will come up with the Plan 9 Haters Handbook.
Surely, there has been enough traffic here to emphasise that Plan 9
contains some good, fresh ideas
of the Alef compiler, try
/n/sources/contrib/lucio/alef.tgz. It compiles and some tests are
successful. However, useful libraries such as graphics, are
conspicuous by not having been ported to the architecture of 3rd
Edition Plan 9. It's on my TODO list to sort this out, but the
priority is low.
If you
fyi, here's the rc version of 'save' that uses cgifs:
#!/bin/rc
. /lib/cgifs/sandbox
May I humbly submit that the above is inadequate? I risk sounding
like a serious newbie, but I believe that perhaps 9fans is too broad a
vehicle to do Plan 9 justice. In this case, Skip's posting is
I did have copious amounts of mail in this box, somewhere
in the neighborhood of 3500.
Whenever I allow my IMAP mailbox to grow too large, upas also grinds
to a halt. I haven't yet done justice to Erik Quanstrom's nupas to
see if it makes a difference because it is too big a leap at this
point
The code is:
extern ulong
drawld2chan[] = {
GREY1,
GREY2,
GREY4,
CMAP8,
};
and GCC (yes, that one!) complains about it:
gcc -c -Wall -D_PLAN_9 -D_POSIX_SOURCE -D_PLAN9_SOURCE -I.
and GCC (yes, that one!) complains about it:
Here's another:
/sys/src/libdraw/window.c:25
s = malloc(sizeof(Screen));
if(s == 0)
return 0;
SET(id);
for(try=0; try25; try++){
I can't seem to find a definition for SET()
I can't seem to find a definition for SET() anywhere, although I may
not be looking in the right places.
/sys/src/cmd/cc/lex.c:1163
Hm. So kencc knows about it, but it seems an undocumented feature.
How do I express it to suit GCC given that I don't know what it does?
And can I express it in
Documented here:
/sys/doc/comp.ms:1256,1266
Thank you, I've been looking for this type of thing for a long time
(since typestr made its first appearance in kencc), but I could have
sworn there had been no updates to the compiler documentation. Trust
me to overlook the obvious.
++L
I think you have omitted to start the plumber(4), so there is nothing
connected to its conventional mount point.
++L
---BeginMessage---
Hi
I was wondering why does /mnt/plumb have no write permission by
default? Is this an installation problem on my side?
d-r-x-- M 26 fernan fernan 0 Nov
(... where the 'B' suffix is intended to mean BSD)
I would mail 9trouble, but I'm sure I have the wrong end of the stick
here, as seems to be too frequently the case, so let me ask for some
sanity checking.
The attached program (reveal) is a toy I use under NetBSD to disclose
the originating IP
After removing the (socklen_t*) typecast...
# pcc -o reveal -D_POSIX_SOURCE -D_BSD_EXTENSION reveal.c -lbsd
# ./reveal
ERRNO: 12
socket accept: Invalid argument
The precise error I get as well. Thank you for confirming. I'd
forgotten that one of the reasons for doing this was to add
the real solution involves reference counting. but in your case,
not forking would make more sense. in fact, if you wanted
to start reveal from listen(1), you could dispense with the
for(;;) and the fork.
Of course, but the point is to implement a Posix utility under APE,
specially as the
secondly, reveal is meant to drop into background, accepting
connections on TCP/4523 where it replies with the concatenation of the
originating IPv4 address and port number.
is there a reason for not using listen(8)? all that is needed is a
script in /bin/service/tcp4523 nearly identical
I am happy with vmware. Is very good environment for my plan9, because
my wifi card is not supported, ...
No offence intended or taken, I just thought that vmware generally get
an undeservedly bad rap on this list :-)
++L
In fact, one could actually look at what John released
*before* posting to this list and making oneself look silly. It's an
idea.
Uriel is renowned for demanding tools to be released on principle,
without him having any practical need for them. He lands up sounding
like a peevish, ungrateful
I can help the DS10L.
1. open window
2. look out, make sure no one is in the areas
3. slide DS10L out window
Sure, but how do you keep Plan 9 honest if no one checks
portability?
In fact, it's already very hard to find porting opportunities for Plan
9, regretfully. An example I raised at
Because we unworthy dirty masses should not bother with what we are
not supposed to be interested in.
This is getting tedious. Have you considered psychotherapy for your
paranoia?
And what exactly is it that is being denied to you and you deem to be
your undeniable right?
++L
On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 12:52 PM, lu...@proxima.alt.za wrote:
Uriel is renowned for demanding tools to be released on principle,
without him having any practical need for them.
I don't see why uriel having a practical need for them or not is
relevant.
Well, let me try to explain it.
On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 5:47 PM, lu...@proxima.alt.za wrote:
Or, for that matter, evaluate the risk of releasing it prematurely?
What risk?
Untested and/or incomplete kernel changes?
++L
So I take it that you cant use plan9 on a DS10L?
Back to earth, I suppose :-)
I don't know the answer, but I suspect that if no one presents you
with a solution, it means you need to do the porting work yourself.
You will get assistance, but in my limited experience and knowledge it
is hard to
it won't work, so it's better to find that out when
you compile the program rather than waste time compiling
it only to fail when run.
It's an interesting philosophy, but it just bites you in a different
spot :-)
That said, it's obvious from the way the question was posed that there
is no
And we do have a sword hanging over our heads: we've got to get Plan 9
on the top 500 in 2009 or the DOE aspect of this may all go bust. So
you're looking at 9 years (feels like 90!) of pushing on strings with
a pretty hard deliverable next year.
Could you elaborate on the top 500? And why
True, but I'd really like to NOT have any extra software running and
still have and ability to do replica/* and yesterday under 9vx.
I'm only vaguely familiar with 9vx, so there I can't speak, but you
can certainly do replica/* as it is a user-level tool and as for
yesterday, you can apply it
but virtualizing
multiple cpus doesn't really work well in Parallels or VirtualBox
either, nor on VMWare's ESX servers
I'm using both physical cpus on my ESX-based Plan 9 server. Should I
be expecting erratic behaviour?
++L
ndbsearch(2) searches the original file and all the files in
the database= lines. however ndbparse(2) opens only the
named file; ndbreopen(2) only reopens the named file.
It may be that you want to limit the search to a single database
element and then there is no way to do it. The database=
lucio also found that i had absolutely no idea what i was
doing with hbas that support Hsss (staggered spinup), at least for
ich9m-based thinkpads.
Flattering as this is, I do not recall such a thing. I made only an
insignificant contribution regarding flash, if my memory isn't too
muddled
I think you got the names mixed up, I had problems with the sata and
the 82567 on my thinkpad. :)
Yes, even I get us mixed up.
I'm glad you don't seem to, although I am rather jealous that in your
much shorter relationship with Plan 9, you have achieved infinitely
more.
:-)
++L
The strange thing with drawterm+inferno is that even video playback
over drawterm seems to work better than the painful redrawing of wm
apps.
But inferno under drawterm seems superfluous to me. It can't be
totally impractical to run inferno in parallel with drawterm on the
same platform
but then, i can also run inferno natively on mac os x, right? only
thing i will be missing is a single screen in which i will have both
inferno and plan9.
I don't use Inferno as much as I ought to, but whenever I have an
Inferno screen open under Plan 9 I feel orphaned because my Plan 9
screen
'#p'
allows any of my namespaces to debug processess in any other, '#s' is too
global, and /net seems to allow any of my processes to manipulate any of my
other processes' network connections (though I've not tested in detail to
see what's possible.)
So you're saying that (a) a jailed
could you explain why you think this is special?
Perhaps because it is _always_ part of the namespace, where this
discussion is specifically about restricting the namespace? Of
course, that is how I read it, Roman will need to qualify my view.
++L
PS: I also find #X a touch special, but there
Would that satisfy your requirements? Oh, sure, I haven't ever used
#| directly and I'm a bit ignorant of consequences, but the rest seems
feasible.
I suspect #| being an exception wouldn't hurt, though it might be viewed as
a historical wart, being the only one... could #| be made to
RFNOMNT has been brought up repeatedly and, while it's certainly better than
nothing, it is too harsh! It simultaneously:
- restricts access to kernel devices via # paths
- prevents any and all additional mount requests.
Well, it does only the latter, the first is just a special case.
Seems that despite the many years of thinking, this is still a tricky
problem, and # has turned out to be 'good enough' to keep any
alternative from appearing.
A judgement call, no doubt. But the list of failings doesn't seem
very long to me. I'd say that having a /dev pre-built into the
It's behavior is what it is
because that was necessary to get the job done.
This approach can lead to unexpected side effects. Roman (or was it
Nathaniel?) shows how RFNOMNT may be misunderstood to perform two
functions when in fact there is only one purpose to it. In addition,
only the
i haven't even seen what i think is a compelling
argument for sendfd yet you're trying to argue
for second-order problems with a particular
application of sendfd.
Sendfd() seems to me a somewhat more carefully controlled version of
/srv. As it stands, the additional features of sendfd()
I agree that it would be nice if the exceptions were
documented in the man page. They are quite nicely
documented in the code, though:
That's easy enough to do, I'm sure. I'll look into that and see if I
can build the confidence for a patch to, I presume, rfork(2)?
The rationale is also at
No one has yet offered a working, cleaner idea.
I think it is a working, perfectly clean idea, myself. It's a
namespace of its own and there are only a very few inconsistencies
within it, well justified by the very nature of the namespace. That
minor nits such as #s and #| being a bit off the
i suppose you could accuse me of not wanting to change
anything, but it's hard to be in favor of operating system
feng shui.
I'll go along with Erik that the #-space should not be restricted.
Not because I disagree that it would lead to a cleaner implementation,
but because there is too much
i understood what Russ said to mean: patches -- for enhancements that
might someday have a use or fixes that remove some perceived
shortcoming lacking an actual need -- are scary.
Not if they are first discussed in the type of forum that is savvy to
both the immediate effects and the hidden
Where should I look for the format of Plan 9 objects as created by the
compiler(s) and ready for linking? I'm hoping there is a place other
than the compiler sources that documents this intermediate format,
which I presume is not totally unlike a.out.
Also, while I'm asking, there must be more
one nice thing about the scheme is that in the compiler suite
only the loader knows or needs to know
the bit patterns and peculiar properties of the actual machine.
Thank you for reminding me, I thought I'd seen the details somewhere.
Now to actually absorb them, given that if I were to read
Not *on* Plan9, but *for* Plan9: think cross-environment.
I thought about that, but dismissed it because Plan 9 objects exist
only in a Plan 9 environment in the scenario Erik envisages. But,
funny enough, I am currently using NetBSD as my GCC platform, so your
point is not entirely irrelevant.
Well, that's what I meant: binutils on Linux (or any other UNIX
for that matter) understood Plan9's *.out files you can set up
a cross-environment *on Linux* and deploy on Plan9. I'm not sure
its a killer application, but its a use case.
It's also a necessity in order to bootstrap the GCC
mounting
them on external hosts and letting these hosts manipulate physical
devices attached to yours
That's the function of import/export and is one of Plan 9's strong
suits. Surely I cannot have been fooled all these years?
++L
11258672 5946903e318d3596c21e35b42a13c1dea5fd32cc 0
Note the 5946903e318 which AWK may mistakenly treat as a floating
point constant. Now to figure how to prevent such errors...
++L
I wonder how much flack I would get from Israeli passport control for
the stamps in my passport. :)
What makes you think you'll be allowed back into those countries after
visiting Israel? :-)
++L
Does Plan 9 really not provide for file creation?
typedef
struct Dir {
/* system-modified data */
ushort type; /* server type */
uintdev;/* server subtype */
/* file data */
Qid qid;
use the dump, luke. ☺
If there was an easy, foolproof way to scan the dump by filename, I
presume I could search for the earliest instance and consider that the
time of creation. Not entirely viable, is it?
I do wonder why this field was sacrificed in the file system(s) and
9P*?
Or am I
useful or not, traditional unix ctime never gave the creation time
anyway - it gave inode modification time, which isn't the
same thing at all: it's updated when you do a chmod.
Well, that is understandable, if contrary to the principle of least
astonishment. Thank you for that gem, I would
This
seams to be a complete Unix file system exporting solution for accesing
remote file systems from Plan 9.
Does u9fs (which I have used extensively for many years :-|) actually
provide proper authentication? I never tought of it and I will try
the following experiment once my morning
It does p9sk1, but it consults a plain text file rather than a
factotum for its key.
Now I'm really surprised. I guess I never actually looked.
++L
- find fossil's last score (using fossil/last command)
- format fossil partition with that score (flfmt command)
It may be necessary to go back one score, the morning surprise tends
to be after the archive snap.
I had to hack vacchain to return the score audit trail. Ask Russ
for the
personally, i agree it makes the button 2 menu too long. i'd remove
cut, paste, and probably snarf, since i almost always do them by
chording anyway.
That is a good suggestion. Look, Prev and Next would all be useful
and long menus are only a problem on small screens. I keep using
Snarf, I
whether you could
build an interesting dvcs with venti as a low-level
building block, and if so, how.
Well, the first suggestion may be how to partition venti, or is that a
silly starting point? Security definitely defeats, or at least
dilutes some of venti's strengths.
++L
Some level of smartness in how block traversal is made needs to
be there.
That involves partitioning, which defeats the fundamental mechanics of
venti. It then becomes preferable to run distinct venti services,
which is the only way in which different backing stores can be used at
this stage.
Pegasus 2.6 is released with new WebDAV script written in Lua.
Take a look at http://plan9/remoty/pegasus/eman-2.6/ for more details.
We need a little bit more than plan9 in the host name :-)
++L
The only problem seems to be with the plan9.ini
file, /sys/lib/dist/pc/plan9.ini.cd, which specifically asks to boot
from /dev/sdD0
If I understand the handling of the bootfile and bootargs, multiple
entries for most variables cause a menu prompt. But that does not
apply here, you're
it can't dynamically load libraries at run-time which
is the normal extension mechanism for scripting languages on other
platforms.
Let me sneak in here, irrespective of Erik's objections.
My wild attempts at getting GCC/G++ working have led me to believe
that the right idea is going to be,
well, i say modules, but of course the language pre-dates
them. people pretend. it uses import/export tables with type signatures.
those are stashed in the a.out (viz. DYN_MAGIC in a.out.h)
so they stay together.
It's not what the OP suggested. Nor are Nemo's reservation valid.
We're
If you do pay costs on that scale, it might be nice to get
something better than just mmap() when you're done.
I'm sure Cinap will drive this in the right direction. He certainly
made it clear to me that his vision for MMAP is an improvement on the
present model for Linux emulation. But I
This is what I'm doing on bg/p now. I've got a small program that
reads in an elf binary, sets up the argv/env/aux vector(ppc thing) and
jumps to main. It works. I use libmach.
Can you share documentation and code? Although I would have to limit
my experimentation to the 386 platform rather
I'm not sure how you'd fix this. What if only a portion of the block
belongs to me and the other happens to be the password file?
venti just stores whole blocks.
Yes, but the content isn't guaranteed to be from a single user. In
fact, venti has no clue. Change that and it's not venti
venti really doesn't
care what you store.
OK, enough agreement :-)
The issue is that to provide any level of privacy to venti is
impossible, it needs to be done at a higher layer. I think the
original request was for sources to be replicated at the venti block
level, something that could have
i'm not sure i understand. either you have the key (score)
and you can decrypt the whole cyphertext (read the file tree
below), or you don't. assuming of course that scores are too
hard to guess. so the solution is: don't give out the root score.
fossil/last will find the most recent root
EHLO plan9
the connection is lost and upas tries again -- something is amiss.
I seem to recall that MTAs are set to demand a full FQDN for the EHLO
message?
I guess GMAIL could send you some explanatory message.
++L
How
do I execute it by middle clicking on it without acme thinking I am
refering to its own command and, therefore, creating a new window that
I never wanted?
You type /bin/New, instead? It would work 99% of the time.
++L
On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 7:16 AM, lu...@proxima.alt.za wrote:
You type /bin/New, instead? It would work 99% of the time.
dang, what was I thinking. I am such a caveman. I'm going back to
reading entrails.
I do agree with you that making up commands to match acme's built-ins
is a
has anyone looked into porting or building an RDP client?
I think it would be easy to port the standard Linux offering (I forget
the name) if you speak X. It has the screen handling in one module,
but I found I didn't have a clue.
++L
On Wed, 2009-02-25 at 01:26 +0100, Enrico Weigelt wrote:
But I really can't tell anything about the space saving.
(one of the primary decision for venti is that it will be
clustered some day ... ;-o)
Clustered?
Cloudstered?
++L
It's a mess. ACPI sucks. But it's what we have to work with.
I don't know about ACPI, but it struck me that Plan 9 was in a far
batter position to deal with the foibles of USB than any other OS I
am familiar with (IMO, PCI was similar, but the opportunity was
missed), I'm pleased Nemo is able to
Where does all this fancy stuff belong? In the storage medium,
in the HBA, in the device driver, in the file system, or in the
application?
In a very intelligent cache? Or did you mention that above and in my
ignorance I missed it?
OK, let's try this:
. Storage medium: only the hardware
Much of the intelligence
actually resides in the device driver. It is that secret sauce
that gets you good performance. In theory it could be pushed
down, but it takes CPU, memory, and memory bandwidth that may
not be cost effective there.
That would entail a really intelligent controller,
You say 'skip lguest' -- that's fine. But what's the best alternative
for running Plan9 server
on the same bare metal that needs to run something else?
I find VMware ESX (server 3i) pretty robust, whereas VMware server
under Ubuntu makes Ubuntu somewhat more fragile than if I don't start
any
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