Re: [AFMUG] Force 180 question

[Colin Stanners]

Jaime, did you note what firmware version they had? Latest for most of the
non-.AC chipset hardware is 3.5.2.

On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 10:13 PM Jaime Solorza 
wrote:

> Installed a pair of Force 180s today for short ptp link.   Noticed they
> don't have any DFS channels like their other radios.  Is there a firmware
> upgrade for them? Thanks, Jaime
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[AFMUG] Force 180 question

[Jaime Solorza]

Installed a pair of Force 180s today for short ptp link.   Noticed they
don't have any DFS channels like their other radios.  Is there a firmware
upgrade for them? Thanks, Jaime
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Re: [AFMUG] odd Force 200 backhaul issues.

[Adam Moffett]

What was it before?  ePTP?

On 12/10/2018 9:30 PM, Brandon Yuchasz wrote:


Wanted to follow up on this one as well. Changing to TDD PTP appears 
to have done the trick its been up for 5 days now with no issues.


Thanks for all the idea’s everyone.

Brandon

*From:*AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Brandon Yuchasz
*Sent:* Thursday, December 06, 2018 7:26 PM
*To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] odd Force 200 backhaul issues.

Steve,

I don’t think I said. Sorry about that. Its 2.4 on 20mhz channel.

Upgrading to 3.5.2 did not work. However, changed it to TDD PTP and 
its going on 20 hours stable so far.


As with most things time will tell.

Thanks everyone.

Brandon

*From:*AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Steve Jones
*Sent:* Thursday, December 06, 2018 5:17 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] odd Force 200 backhaul issues.

I may mave missed it, but what freq/channel are you on at what size?

On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 1:16 PM Josh Luthman 
mailto:j...@imaginenetworksllc.com>> wrote:


My eptp link was 2.4.3 with the issue for sure

I had a ptmp AP (flexible) 2.5.1 that had an issue where no one
could associate until I rebooted

I would think in 2.6.x it was resolved.  I haven't seen any issues
myself since 2.6.x.

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 5:09 PM Brandon Yuchasz
mailto:li...@gogebicrange.net>> wrote:

Josh,

Was the bug in 2.6.1.x?  I will certainly upgrade but just
wondering how long this has been around.

Thanks everyone.

*From:*AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com
] *On Behalf Of *Josh Luthman
*Sent:* Wednesday, December 05, 2018 9:11 AM
*To:* AFMUG
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] odd Force 200 backhaul issues.

There was a bug that caused it to hang way back in the day
(when the Force 200 and eptp came out). They patched my link
and it quit dying entirely, but I think it was some quick reset.

There's a known bug in 3.5.1 that's semi-resolved in 3.5.2
relating to this, but it is not 100% fixed from what I'm
told.  Upgrade to 3.5.2 and when there's a new release you'll
want to upgrade when you can.

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

On Tue, Dec 4, 2018 at 11:58 PM Mathew Howard
mailto:mhoward...@gmail.com>> wrote:

I've seen that happen before, but I can't remember what we
did to fix it... I think we may have had to replace the
radio. I can't remember if it was a PTP or PTMP situation,
either... it was a while ago.

It might be worth switching it to TDD PTP mode instead,
and see if that helps.

On Tue, Dec 4, 2018 at 10:14 PM Brandon Yuchasz
mailto:li...@gogebicrange.net>>
wrote:

Yes de-registering the link does make the link start
passing traffic again although it seems a lot shorter
lived so far. Only lasted an hour.

*From:*AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com
] *On Behalf Of
*Brandon Yuchasz
*Sent:* Tuesday, December 04, 2018 7:56 PM
*To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] odd Force 200 backhaul issues.

I don’t know. I will report back after trying it.

Thanks for the idea.

*From:*AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com
] *On Behalf Of
*Mathew Howard
*Sent:* Tuesday, December 04, 2018 4:02 PM
*To:* AFMUG
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] odd Force 200 backhaul issues.

Does it start working again if you just de-register
the link, instead of rebooting the radio(s)?

On Tue, Dec 4, 2018 at 9:33 AM Brandon Yuchasz
mailto:li...@gogebicrange.net>> wrote:

Dave,

I have not seems like such a strange issue I
didn’t have much faith in tech support. My
experience is the list seems to have better info
on these odd issues. One side of this link
requires snow shoes to get to so I am trying to
avoid replacement if at all possible.

Thanks,

Brandon

*From:*AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com
] *On Behalf Of *Dave
*Sent:* Tuesday, 

Re: [AFMUG] Finally starting to catch up

[Adam Moffett]

I think it's for people who didn't read the spec sheets carefully. 
AirFiber tricked me initially too.


Or maybe you really do have excess capacity and want to redeploy your 
820C someplace else.



On 12/10/2018 7:41 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:

Ask the market, not me...

-Original Message- From: Seth Mattinen Sent: Monday, December 
10, 2018 4:40 PM To: af@af.afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Finally 
starting to catch up

On 12/8/18 10:20 AM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:
Oh, and PTP802C is also in the works.  Not sure what that interface 
looks like yet.  Have a radio on its way to me to reverse engineer 
the mechanics.



Is the PTP820C adapter for when you're tired of the extra capacity and 
want to slow things down?





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Re: [AFMUG] Mikrotik Poe In 29.5v?

[Brandon Yuchasz]

So to follow up on this post and answer my own question. Yes the RB1100AHx2
will not run on 29.5v. It did not power up when I tried and it appears it
also did not damage it which is nice. I went to the site today and powered
it up with 24v power supply swapped in place of the 29.5v. 

 

My original reason for wanting the 29.5v power supply was to be sure the
ePMP 1000 units would activate the heater in cold winter and boot if powered
off for any amount of time. I realized over the weekend they were being
powered on the 48v side of things so I didn't need to worry about it and
could step down to 24v for the backhauls, and old FSK, and mikrotik without
an issue.

Thanks for all the help everyone.

 

Brandon

 

 

 

 

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Ken Hohhof
Sent: Friday, December 07, 2018 7:46 AM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Mikrotik Poe In 29.5v?

 

1100AHx2?

 

If you're exceeding the voltage rating of some component in the router, it
may fail over time not immediately.  On the other hand, Mikrotik may have
come up with the 28 volt number with 24 volt battery voltage in mind, not
because their circuitry can't handle 30 volts.

 

What is generating your 29.5 volts?  Is it a power supply with a voltage
adjustment that you could crank down to 28 volts?  Is the 29.5 volts for
some Cambium APs?  They would probably be fine with 28 volts.  I guess it
depends how critical this tower is, and whether you  have a spare router on
hand in case the extra 1.5 volts actually does damage it.

 

I used to be an EE designing products, and I would not have designed
something so close to the published specs that 105% of spec would cause
damage.  But we live in different times, now it's more like 90% of spec is
good enough, so you never know.  But my guess would be the 28 volt number
came from marketing and doesn't necessarily mean the router can't handle 30
volts.  You could take this logic to an extreme, though.  Maybe it can
handle 32 volts.  What about 48 volts?  Or 60 volts?  Let's crank up the
voltage and see what happens.  I remember I got confused at a tower with a
mix of 450 and 450i APs when we were replacing equipment after a lightning
storm, and powered a 450 AP with 48 volts.  Everything ran fine.  For about
2 days, at which point the AP was toast.

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Brandon Yuchasz
Sent: Friday, December 7, 2018 7:17 AM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Mikrotik Poe In 29.5v?

 

Yes it's the discontinued model RB2011AHx2.  I did some testing last night
with a slightly different model and it ran just fine on the 29.5v. Obviously
the Ahx2 has slightly lower specs so I am going to have to go to the site to
figure out testing. I'm powering it with the Rackmount unit from Packetflux
so I have the option of adding a third power supply at 24 volts and powering
the routers with it but I would prefer not to have a third power supply as
its just something else to fail. 

 

 

 

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Ken Hohhof
Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2018 10:01 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Mikrotik Poe In 29.5v?

 

Do you mean RB2011 or RB1100AHx2?  Or maybe AHx4?  The AHx2 appears to be
discontinued but spec sheet says 28V max?  RB2011 says 30V max.  RB1100AHx4
will take up to 57V.

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Brandon Yuchasz
Sent: Thursday, December 6, 2018 7:30 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: [AFMUG] Mikrotik Poe In 29.5v?

 

I am walking out to the truck to grab some parts and do some living room
floor testing here shortly but if anyone wants to save me the trouble. Will
the RB2011 AHX2 run on 29.5v poe or does it have to be 24v? I'm fairly sure
based on my work earlier today the 29.5v is to much.

 

 

Thanks,

Brandon

 

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Re: [AFMUG] Finally starting to catch up

[Jon Langeler]

Ha nice one 

Jon Langeler
Michwave Technologies, Inc.


> On Dec 10, 2018, at 6:40 PM, Seth Mattinen  wrote:
> 
>> On 12/8/18 10:20 AM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:
>> Oh, and PTP802C is also in the works.  Not sure what that interface looks 
>> like yet.  Have a radio on its way to me to reverse engineer the mechanics.
> 
> 
> Is the PTP820C adapter for when you're tired of the extra capacity and want 
> to slow things down?
> 
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Re: [AFMUG] Finally starting to catch up

[chuck]

Ask the market, not me...

-Original Message- 
From: Seth Mattinen 
Sent: Monday, December 10, 2018 4:40 PM 
To: af@af.afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Finally starting to catch up 


On 12/8/18 10:20 AM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:
Oh, and PTP802C is also in the works.  Not sure what that interface 
looks like yet.  Have a radio on its way to me to reverse engineer the 
mechanics.



Is the PTP820C adapter for when you're tired of the extra capacity and 
want to slow things down?


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Re: [AFMUG] Finally starting to catch up

[Seth Mattinen]

On 12/8/18 10:20 AM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:
Oh, and PTP802C is also in the works.  Not sure what that interface 
looks like yet.  Have a radio on its way to me to reverse engineer the 
mechanics.



Is the PTP820C adapter for when you're tired of the extra capacity and 
want to slow things down?


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Re: [AFMUG] Finally starting to catch up

[chuck]

I hope to have the full array of adapters up on the website soon.  New employee 
dedicated to CNC machining is helping a whole bunch.  

From: Brian Sullivan 
Sent: Monday, December 10, 2018 4:08 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Finally starting to catch up

Cool product!


On 12/8/2018 12:20 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:

  Oh, and PTP802C is also in the works.  Not sure what that interface looks 
like yet.  Have a radio on its way to me to reverse engineer the mechanics.  

  From: ch...@wbmfg.com 
  Sent: Saturday, December 8, 2018 11:10 AM
  To: af@af.afmug.com 
  Subject: Finally starting to catch up

  Getting more AF11X antenna adapters in the lineup.  
  We have Remec, Dragonwave and Andrew VLP (pictured) complete.
  Exalt is in testing and SAF is planned.  

  We are shipping to beta testers only at the moment, but they will hit the 
distribution channel this month I hope.  

   





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Re: [AFMUG] Finally starting to catch up

[Brian Sullivan]

Cool product!

On 12/8/2018 12:20 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:
Oh, and PTP802C is also in the works.  Not sure what that interface 
looks like yet.  Have a radio on its way to me to reverse engineer the 
mechanics.

*From:* ch...@wbmfg.com
*Sent:* Saturday, December 8, 2018 11:10 AM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Subject:* Finally starting to catch up
Getting more AF11X antenna adapters in the lineup.
We have Remec, Dragonwave and Andrew VLP (pictured) complete.
Exalt is in testing and SAF is planned.
We are shipping to beta testers only at the moment, but they will hit 
the distribution channel this month I hope.




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[AFMUG] London Ontario Serving Area?

[Paul Stewart]

Hey folks … I haven’t been on this list in a while but I’m back now ☺

I wanted to know if we had any friendly neighbors or competitors who are 
serving wireless just south of London Ontario?  This is between St. Thomas and 
London – almost exactly half way.

If anyone serves there or knows someone who does I’d be interesting in talking 
… we have a customer there who potentially needs service.

Thanks
Paul

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Re: [AFMUG] cheap fiber splice cases

[Adam Moffett]

I don't know if they have one for outside plant.


On 12/10/2018 3:52 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:
Looking more for an environmentally sealed case.  Similar to something 
you would get from PLP or Tyco etc.  Pretty sure FS has something but 
I always have a hard time finding what I want on their website.

*From:* Ryan Ray
*Sent:* Monday, December 10, 2018 1:35 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] cheap fiber splice cases
Something like this? https://www.fs.com/products/28774.html we've used 
it in the past

On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 12:26 PM  wrote:

I was sure FS.com had some but am not finding them.  Need
something for indoor wall mount.
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Re: [AFMUG] cheap fiber splice cases

[chuck]

How does a gong feel?

-Original Message- 
From: Jay Weekley

Sent: Monday, December 10, 2018 2:12 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] cheap fiber splice cases

No but I am amused by the regular emails I get from their rep Feeling Gong.

TJ Trout wrote:
anyone else just go to fs.com  to read the entertaining 
fake reviews?


On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 1:03 PM Ryan Ray > wrote:


https://www.fs.com/products/29062.html ?


https://www.fs.com/c/splice-closure-17

On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 12:53 PM mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>> wrote:

Looking more for an environmentally sealed case.  Similar to
something you would get from PLP or Tyco etc.  Pretty sure FS
has something but I always have a hard time finding what I
want on their website.
*From:* Ryan Ray
*Sent:* Monday, December 10, 2018 1:35 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] cheap fiber splice cases
Something like this? https://www.fs.com/products/28774.html
we've used it in the past
On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 12:26 PM  wrote:

I was sure FS.com had some but am not finding them.  Need
something for indoor wall mount.
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*

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Re: [AFMUG] cheap fiber splice cases

[chuck]

Now you’re talking.  Under WDM, who woulda thunk.  

From: Ryan Ray 
Sent: Monday, December 10, 2018 2:02 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] cheap fiber splice cases

https://www.fs.com/products/29062.html ?



https://www.fs.com/c/splice-closure-17


On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 12:53 PM  wrote:

  Looking more for an environmentally sealed case.  Similar to something you 
would get from PLP or Tyco etc.  Pretty sure FS has something but I always have 
a hard time finding what I want on their website.  

  From: Ryan Ray 
  Sent: Monday, December 10, 2018 1:35 PM
  To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] cheap fiber splice cases

  Something like this? https://www.fs.com/products/28774.html we've used it in 
the past 


  On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 12:26 PM  wrote:

I was sure FS.com had some but am not finding them.  Need something for 
indoor wall mount.  
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Re: [AFMUG] cheap fiber splice cases

[Jay Weekley]

No but I am amused by the regular emails I get from their rep Feeling Gong.

TJ Trout wrote:
anyone else just go to fs.com  to read the entertaining 
fake reviews?


On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 1:03 PM Ryan Ray > wrote:


https://www.fs.com/products/29062.html ?


https://www.fs.com/c/splice-closure-17

On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 12:53 PM mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>> wrote:

Looking more for an environmentally sealed case.  Similar to
something you would get from PLP or Tyco etc.  Pretty sure FS
has something but I always have a hard time finding what I
want on their website.
*From:* Ryan Ray
*Sent:* Monday, December 10, 2018 1:35 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] cheap fiber splice cases
Something like this? https://www.fs.com/products/28774.html
we've used it in the past
On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 12:26 PM  wrote:

I was sure FS.com had some but am not finding them.  Need
something for indoor wall mount.
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Re: [AFMUG] cheap fiber splice cases

[TJ Trout]

anyone else just go to fs.com to read the entertaining fake reviews?

On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 1:03 PM Ryan Ray  wrote:

> https://www.fs.com/products/29062.html ?
>
>
> https://www.fs.com/c/splice-closure-17
>
> On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 12:53 PM  wrote:
>
>> Looking more for an environmentally sealed case.  Similar to something
>> you would get from PLP or Tyco etc.  Pretty sure FS has something but I
>> always have a hard time finding what I want on their website.
>>
>> *From:* Ryan Ray
>> *Sent:* Monday, December 10, 2018 1:35 PM
>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] cheap fiber splice cases
>>
>> Something like this? https://www.fs.com/products/28774.html we've used
>> it in the past
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 12:26 PM  wrote:
>>
>>> I was sure FS.com had some but am not finding them.  Need something for
>>> indoor wall mount.
>>> --
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>>>
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Re: [AFMUG] cheap fiber splice cases

[Ryan Ray]

https://www.fs.com/products/29062.html ?


https://www.fs.com/c/splice-closure-17

On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 12:53 PM  wrote:

> Looking more for an environmentally sealed case.  Similar to something you
> would get from PLP or Tyco etc.  Pretty sure FS has something but I always
> have a hard time finding what I want on their website.
>
> *From:* Ryan Ray
> *Sent:* Monday, December 10, 2018 1:35 PM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] cheap fiber splice cases
>
> Something like this? https://www.fs.com/products/28774.html we've used it
> in the past
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 12:26 PM  wrote:
>
>> I was sure FS.com had some but am not finding them.  Need something for
>> indoor wall mount.
>> --
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>>
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Re: [AFMUG] cheap fiber splice cases

[chuck]

Looking more for an environmentally sealed case.  Similar to something you 
would get from PLP or Tyco etc.  Pretty sure FS has something but I always have 
a hard time finding what I want on their website.  

From: Ryan Ray 
Sent: Monday, December 10, 2018 1:35 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] cheap fiber splice cases

Something like this? https://www.fs.com/products/28774.html we've used it in 
the past 


On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 12:26 PM  wrote:

  I was sure FS.com had some but am not finding them.  Need something for 
indoor wall mount.  
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Re: [AFMUG] cheap fiber splice cases

[Ryan Ray]

Something like this? https://www.fs.com/products/28774.html we've used it
in the past


On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 12:26 PM  wrote:

> I was sure FS.com had some but am not finding them.  Need something for
> indoor wall mount.
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[AFMUG] cheap fiber splice cases

[chuck]

I was sure FS.com had some but am not finding them.  Need something for indoor 
wall mount.  -- 
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Re: [AFMUG] Emergency Contact for LinkTech guys?

[Timothy Steele]

As I agree I don't run this company, the company runs 100 % remote and by
emails only we don't even allow clients to call

Surprisingly the business model has worked really good so far

On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 2:51 PM Darin Steffl 
wrote:

> I simply don't understand how our customers and other wisp's will email in
> an emergency situation instead of calling?
>
> An email isn't generally treated as instant. For linktechs in an
> emergency, I would create a ticket first then call in as soon as its
> created so they can escalate. Sending a message to a mailing list isn't the
> best way to reach someone in my opinion unless it's a last resort.
>
> On Mon, Dec 10, 2018, 1:46 PM David Coudron  wrote:
>
>> Chuck has got the message out, otherwise call into the main Linktechs
>> number, and talk to Sales.  They’ll get the account set up and then you can
>> have them help you under their emergency rates structure I think.   More
>> money per hour, but can get to you quickly.  Might want to do this while
>> waiting for Dennis to respond to Chuck’s message.
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>>
>>
>> David Coudron
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of * Timothy Steele
>> *Sent:* Monday, December 10, 2018 1:38 PM
>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
>> *Subject:* [AFMUG] Emergency Contact for LinkTech guys?
>>
>>
>>
>> The Boss has a bit of an emergency with Publics not routing correctly on
>> Mikrotik   said he signed up but still waiting for a reply
>>
>>
>>
>> I understand signing up can take some time but we have a major client
>> that we need to get working ASAP is there an Email Address I can have the
>> boss send an email to?
>> --
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>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
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Re: [AFMUG] Emergency Contact for LinkTech guys?

[Darin Steffl]

I simply don't understand how our customers and other wisp's will email in
an emergency situation instead of calling?

An email isn't generally treated as instant. For linktechs in an emergency,
I would create a ticket first then call in as soon as its created so they
can escalate. Sending a message to a mailing list isn't the best way to
reach someone in my opinion unless it's a last resort.

On Mon, Dec 10, 2018, 1:46 PM David Coudron  Chuck has got the message out, otherwise call into the main Linktechs
> number, and talk to Sales.  They’ll get the account set up and then you can
> have them help you under their emergency rates structure I think.   More
> money per hour, but can get to you quickly.  Might want to do this while
> waiting for Dennis to respond to Chuck’s message.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> David Coudron
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of * Timothy Steele
> *Sent:* Monday, December 10, 2018 1:38 PM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> *Subject:* [AFMUG] Emergency Contact for LinkTech guys?
>
>
>
> The Boss has a bit of an emergency with Publics not routing correctly on
> Mikrotik   said he signed up but still waiting for a reply
>
>
>
> I understand signing up can take some time but we have a major client that
> we need to get working ASAP is there an Email Address I can have the boss
> send an email to?
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Re: [AFMUG] Emergency Contact for LinkTech guys?

[Dennis Burgess via AF]

Our office number.. lol .  Right below, we are open!  Lol


Dennis Burgess, Mikrotik Certified Trainer
Author of "Learn RouterOS- Second Edition”
Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services
Office: 314-735-0270  Website: 
http://www.linktechs.net
Create Wireless Coverage’s with www.towercoverage.com

From: AF  On Behalf Of Timothy Steele
Sent: Monday, December 10, 2018 1:38 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: [AFMUG] Emergency Contact for LinkTech guys?

The Boss has a bit of an emergency with Publics not routing correctly on 
Mikrotik   said he signed up but still waiting for a reply

I understand signing up can take some time but we have a major client that we 
need to get working ASAP is there an Email Address I can have the boss send an 
email to?
-- 
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[AFMUG] Paging Dennis, Dennis to the meat counter please

[chuck]

From: Timothy Steele 
Sent: Monday, December 10, 2018 12:38 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: [AFMUG] Emergency Contact for LinkTech guys?

The Boss has a bit of an emergency with Publics not routing correctly on 
Mikrotik   said he signed up but still waiting for a reply 

I understand signing up can take some time but we have a major client that we 
need to get working ASAP is there an Email Address I can have the boss send an 
email to?



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[AFMUG] Emergency Contact for LinkTech guys?

[Timothy Steele]

The Boss has a bit of an emergency with Publics not routing correctly on
Mikrotik   said he signed up but still waiting for a reply

I understand signing up can take some time but we have a major client that
we need to get working ASAP is there an Email Address I can have the boss
send an email to?
-- 
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Re: [AFMUG] speedtest.net and Canopy/Cambium QOS / burst bucket

[Ken Hohhof]

Just speculating, but since the AP is doing this in firmware, and we know the 
450 AP has CPU horsepower limitations (compared to 450i and 450m), I wonder if 
it starts struggling to do QoS smoothly when it just barely has enough CPU 
cycles to just forward the data.  But even so, why is the OP only seeing this 
on speedtest.net?

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of David Sovereen
Sent: Monday, December 10, 2018 12:24 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] speedtest.net and Canopy/Cambium QOS / burst bucket

 

I don’t agree either.

 

The AP is the ONLY device that knows the maximum throughput at any given point 
in time because the max throughput varies second by second based on what SMs 
are talking, their modulation, their max throughput, etc.  Shaping a port to 
its theoretical max only has an effect when the SMs being serviced by the AP at 
that exact moment are at the max modulation with no retransmissions. Anything 
less than perfect efficiency will allow more traffic to go to the AP than the 
AP can deliver to the SMs behind it.  Shaping a port to less than its 
theoretical max unnecessarily slows traffic when conditions are right for 
maximum throughput.

 

It is my opinion that it is best to mark packets with priorities and let the AP 
shape the traffic.  If the AP’s scheduler/shaper isn’t good, then that needs to 
be fixed in the AP.  Yes, Preseem can monitor queue lengths and can discern 
when a flow maxing out the underlying link and drop packets to slow the flow 
down.  So can the AP. 

 

David Sovereen

 

Mercury Network Corporation

2719 Ashman Street, Midland, MI 48640
989.837.3790 x151 office | 888.866.4638 toll free |  989.837.3780 fax

 

Telephone  |  Internet  |  Security Alarm Monitoring

 

  david.sover...@mercury.net

www.mercury.net  








On Dec 10, 2018, at 12:16 PM, Adam Moffett mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com> > wrote:

 

Interesting claim.  I can't say I agree.

On 12/9/2018 8:56 PM, Darin Steffl wrote:

All testing done by many wisp's shows that shaping at the radio/CPE or AP is 
about the worst way to do it. 

 

Leads to huge slowdowns when the customer maxes their plan and other weird 
issues, maybe like what you're seeing. 

 

I'd recommend shaping at your core, before it hits your backhaul network. We 
use preseem and it's a gem 

 

On Sun, Dec 9, 2018, 7:18 PM Kurt Fankhauser mailto:lists.wavel...@gmail.com>  wrote:

no ken i have not tried cranking up the QOS in the radio itself, maybe i will 
try that

 

On Sun, Dec 9, 2018 at 4:01 PM Ken Hohhof mailto:af...@kwisp.com> > wrote:

Do you see the same thing even if you crank up the QoS settings as far as they 
will go?  Trying to determine if it’s Cambium’s QoS mechanism or something 
else.  We enforce speed tiers outside the radios so I don’t have much 
experience with how well or poorly Cambium’s QoS implementation works and 
whether there are any quirks that might interact badly with Ookla based 
speedtests.

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of Kurt Fankhauser
Sent: Sunday, December 9, 2018 11:18 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com  
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] speedtest.net   and Canopy/Cambium 
QOS / burst bucket

 

Also here is AP downlink utilization graph for last 24 hours. Clearly AP is not 
overloaded only got up to beyond 20% for a very short period of time.

 

On Sun, Dec 9, 2018 at 12:13 PM Kurt Fankhauser mailto:lists.wavel...@gmail.com> > wrote:

Ken there is no problem selling 50meg plans on original 450 AP's running 30 mhz 
channels that only have a dozen low usage clients. 75/25 downlink ratio and 
30mhz channels should yeild at least 100mbps down on linktests in 8x. Once you 
start to load up the AP's its not the original 450 SM's thats the problem its 
the AP itself as those things give out at about 70'ish mbps down (even though 
the link tests show there is more capacity). At that point you just switch the 
AP out with a 450i and you can take advantage of the beyond 70mbps downlinks. 

 

My original problem is not related to running out of capacity on the AP as I am 
clearly able to get the bandwidth there with the www.openspeedtest.com 
  site as well as Mikrotik Btest (see attached 
pic). Yes the attached pic is a Mikrotik router doing a TCP BTEST through an 
original 450SM and original 450AP that has 15 clients attached to it! 

 

On Sun, Dec 9, 2018 at 9:55 AM Ken Hohhof mailto:af...@kwisp.com> > wrote:

OK, this comment conflicts with your report that the problem only shows up when 
testing with speedtest.net  .  But still, I have to 
question the wisdom of selling 50M plans using Cambium 450.  That’s a lot of 
throughput for a multipoint platform, and is only going to work if the stars 
are aligned.

 

Is this a 450, 450i, or 450m AP?  What about the SM?  You could be running into 
CPU limitations on 

Re: [AFMUG] Corning cable for long drops

[Jason McKemie]

OFS has some pretty strong ADSS that could be useful for this.  It comes in
strand quantities of 12 or more, but I think it tops out around 400-450' at
NESC heavy, so it may not have quite the span length you need depending on
your ice loading region.

On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 12:18 PM Adam Moffett  wrote:

> The need I'm filling is sometimes you want to be able to hit a house on
> a side road or a long driveway.  The existing poles might be 500+ feet
> apart because that was sufficient for the electric co.  A flat drop in a
> heavy ice loading area isn't recommended for more than 150 feet (per
> Corning).  I don't want to run messenger strand and thru-bolts and all
> that just to hit one house.
>
> Last time I looked at ADSS what I saw was the strength component was
> around the outside of the cable, and consequently they got stronger as
> the diameter went up.  So a 12F ADSS was actually no stronger than an
> ordinary flat drop cable, but a 144F was super strong. I dismissed it
> for this purpose because I didn't think I'd want to pay for 144F for
> drops.  I was looking at one brand and model, so maybe that's not true
> in all cases.
>
> -Adam
>
>
> On 12/10/2018 12:49 PM, fiber...@mail.com wrote:
> > If you are in need of a dielectric aerial fiber cable, keep in mind that
> there's a large assortment of ADSS cables available from different vendors.
> There are versions suitable for very long spans and any count you'd like.
> ADSS cables can be more cost effective than figure-8, but it depends on
> your circumstances. The main downside is that ADSS requires compatible
> hanging hardware and you can't overlash additional cables on it.
> >
> > Jared
> >
> >
> > Sent: Monday, December 10, 2018
> > From: "Adam Moffett" 
> > To: af@af.afmug.com
> > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Corning cable for long drops
> >
> > The vendor says he's working with corning on the proper hanging hardware.
> >
> >
> > On 12/8/2018 8:39 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com[mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com] wrote:
> >
> > I wonder if they have special grips for it.  Like a wirevise:
> >
> https://shop.ptsupply.com/shop/hardware/aerial/5058/maclean-senior-industries-llc-wirevise-109-ca07625[https://shop.ptsupply.com/shop/hardware/aerial/5058/maclean-senior-industries-llc-wirevise-109-ca07625]
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Adam Moffett
> > Sent: Saturday, December 8, 2018 6:17 PM
> > To: af@af.afmug.com
> > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Corning cable for long drops
> >
> > Cost unknown at this point, but I should have a quote next week.  As
> long as it's cheaper than hanging a messenger strand to hit one house then
> I've got uses for it.
> >
> >
> > On 12/8/2018 8:03 PM, Chris Fabien wrote:
> > What's the cost? Would it be robust enough to hang and mainline on a
> rural sideroad?
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Dec 8, 2018, 7:08 PM Adam Moffett  wrote:This drop cable looks basically like a figure-8 cable, but it's all
> > dielectric.
> > It's exactly what I've been hunting for:  A solution for rural drops on
> > long spans in heavy ice load areas, and no steel so no grounding.
> >
> > It's a full 0.5" wide so you have to get some extra wide hangers to go
> > with it.
> > --
> > AF mailing list
> > AF@af.afmug.com
> > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
> >
> > 
> > --
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> > AF@af.afmug.com[mailto:AF@af.afmug.com]
> > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
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> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com[http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com]
> >
>
>
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Re: [AFMUG] Corning cable for long drops

[Adam Moffett]

The need I'm filling is sometimes you want to be able to hit a house on 
a side road or a long driveway.  The existing poles might be 500+ feet 
apart because that was sufficient for the electric co.  A flat drop in a 
heavy ice loading area isn't recommended for more than 150 feet (per 
Corning).  I don't want to run messenger strand and thru-bolts and all 
that just to hit one house.


Last time I looked at ADSS what I saw was the strength component was 
around the outside of the cable, and consequently they got stronger as 
the diameter went up.  So a 12F ADSS was actually no stronger than an 
ordinary flat drop cable, but a 144F was super strong. I dismissed it 
for this purpose because I didn't think I'd want to pay for 144F for 
drops.  I was looking at one brand and model, so maybe that's not true 
in all cases.


-Adam


On 12/10/2018 12:49 PM, fiber...@mail.com wrote:

If you are in need of a dielectric aerial fiber cable, keep in mind that 
there's a large assortment of ADSS cables available from different vendors. 
There are versions suitable for very long spans and any count you'd like. ADSS 
cables can be more cost effective than figure-8, but it depends on your 
circumstances. The main downside is that ADSS requires compatible hanging 
hardware and you can't overlash additional cables on it.
  
Jared
  


Sent: Monday, December 10, 2018
From: "Adam Moffett" 
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Corning cable for long drops

The vendor says he's working with corning on the proper hanging hardware.

  
On 12/8/2018 8:39 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com[mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com] wrote:


I wonder if they have special grips for it.  Like a wirevise:
https://shop.ptsupply.com/shop/hardware/aerial/5058/maclean-senior-industries-llc-wirevise-109-ca07625[https://shop.ptsupply.com/shop/hardware/aerial/5058/maclean-senior-industries-llc-wirevise-109-ca07625]

  


From: Adam Moffett
Sent: Saturday, December 8, 2018 6:17 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Corning cable for long drops
  
Cost unknown at this point, but I should have a quote next week.  As long as it's cheaper than hanging a messenger strand to hit one house then I've got uses for it.


  
On 12/8/2018 8:03 PM, Chris Fabien wrote:

What's the cost? Would it be robust enough to hang and mainline on a rural 
sideroad?
  


On Sat, Dec 8, 2018, 7:08 PM Adam Moffett http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
  


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Re: [AFMUG] AFMUG list prob

[chuck]

I posted a note to the list to see if anyone has suggestings.  

From: Andreas Wiatowski 
Sent: Monday, December 10, 2018 10:47 AM
To: ch...@wbmfg.com 
Cc: af@af.afmug.com 
Subject: Re: AFMUG list prob

Ok, I thought I would ask… has something to do with the way exchange uses 
internal RFC headers…I can’t change them.  Just seems however the list is 
set-up restrictive to this issue.

 

Cheers,

 



 

Andreas Wiatowski

Founder/CEO

P: 519-449-5656 x 600 / 1-866-727-4138 x 600

 

Fibre Internet | Wireless Internet | Phone | TV

Connecting your community

www.silo.ca

 

  

 

 

_

The contents of this email message and any attachments are intended solely for 
the addressee(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information and 
may be legally protected from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient 
of this message or their agent, or if this message has been addressed to you in 
error, please immediately alert the sender by reply email and then delete this 
message and any attachments. If you are not the intended recipient, you are 
hereby notified that any use, dissemination, copying, or storage of this 
message or its attachments is strictly prohibited. 

 

 

From: "ch...@wbmfg.com" 
Date: Monday, December 10, 2018 at 12:45 PM
To: Andreas Wiatowski 
Cc: "af@af.afmug.com" 
Subject: Re: AFMUG list prob

 

There is regular traffic to the list.  Not exactly sure what to do here.  

 

From: Andreas Wiatowski 

Sent: Monday, December 10, 2018 10:43 AM

To: ch...@wbmfg.com 

Subject: AFMUG list prob

 

Chuck,

 

I haven’t been able to post in months…. It says that it’s a DNS thing…but I 
can’t seem to fix it.  This is the only place in the world that I seem to have 
this issue.  Can you whitelist me?

 

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12:39:40 -0500From: Andreas Wiatowski To: AnimalFarm Microwave 
Users Group Subject: TestThread-Topic: TestThread-Index: 
AQHUkK9TgyqrrDNcJkGeMMvZAiJKhA==Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2018 17:39:40 
+Message-ID: 
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Cheers,

 



 

Andreas Wiatowski

Founder/CEO

P: 519-449-5656 x 600 / 1-866-727-4138 x 600

 

Fibre Internet | Wireless Internet | Phone | TV

Connecting your community

www.silo.ca

 

  

 

 

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The contents of this email message and any attachments are intended solely for 
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hereby notified that any use, dissemination, copying, or storage of this 
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Re: [AFMUG] Corning cable for long drops

[fiberrun]

If you are in need of a dielectric aerial fiber cable, keep in mind that 
there's a large assortment of ADSS cables available from different vendors. 
There are versions suitable for very long spans and any count you'd like. ADSS 
cables can be more cost effective than figure-8, but it depends on your 
circumstances. The main downside is that ADSS requires compatible hanging 
hardware and you can't overlash additional cables on it.
 
Jared
 

Sent: Monday, December 10, 2018
From: "Adam Moffett" 
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Corning cable for long drops

The vendor says he's working with corning on the proper hanging hardware.

 
On 12/8/2018 8:39 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com[mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com] wrote:

I wonder if they have special grips for it.  Like a wirevise:
https://shop.ptsupply.com/shop/hardware/aerial/5058/maclean-senior-industries-llc-wirevise-109-ca07625[https://shop.ptsupply.com/shop/hardware/aerial/5058/maclean-senior-industries-llc-wirevise-109-ca07625]

 

From: Adam Moffett
Sent: Saturday, December 8, 2018 6:17 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Corning cable for long drops
 
Cost unknown at this point, but I should have a quote next week.  As long as 
it's cheaper than hanging a messenger strand to hit one house then I've got 
uses for it.

 
On 12/8/2018 8:03 PM, Chris Fabien wrote:
What's the cost? Would it be robust enough to hang and mainline on a rural 
sideroad?
 

On Sat, Dec 8, 2018, 7:08 PM Adam Moffett http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com    
 

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Re: [AFMUG] AFMUG list prob

[chuck]

There is regular traffic to the list.  Not exactly sure what to do here.  

From: Andreas Wiatowski 
Sent: Monday, December 10, 2018 10:43 AM
To: ch...@wbmfg.com 
Subject: AFMUG list prob

Chuck,

 

I haven’t been able to post in months…. It says that it’s a DNS thing…but I 
can’t seem to fix it.  This is the only place in the world that I seem to have 
this issue.  Can you whitelist me?

 

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Re: [AFMUG] speedtest.net and Canopy/Cambium QOS / burst bucket

[Adam Moffett]

Interesting claim.  I can't say I agree.

On 12/9/2018 8:56 PM, Darin Steffl wrote:
All testing done by many wisp's shows that shaping at the radio/CPE or 
AP is about the worst way to do it.


Leads to huge slowdowns when the customer maxes their plan and other 
weird issues, maybe like what you're seeing.


I'd recommend shaping at your core, before it hits your backhaul 
network. We use preseem and it's a gem


On Sun, Dec 9, 2018, 7:18 PM Kurt Fankhauser  wrote:


no ken i have not tried cranking up the QOS in the radio itself,
maybe i will try that

On Sun, Dec 9, 2018 at 4:01 PM Ken Hohhof mailto:af...@kwisp.com>> wrote:

Do you see the same thing even if you crank up the QoS
settings as far as they will go?  Trying to determine if it’s
Cambium’s QoS mechanism or something else.  We enforce speed
tiers outside the radios so I don’t have much experience with
how well or poorly Cambium’s QoS implementation works and
whether there are any quirks that might interact badly with
Ookla based speedtests.

*From:* AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> *On Behalf Of *Kurt Fankhauser
*Sent:* Sunday, December 9, 2018 11:18 AM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] speedtest.net 
and Canopy/Cambium QOS / burst bucket

Also here is AP downlink utilization graph for last 24 hours.
Clearly AP is not overloaded only got up to beyond 20% for a
very short period of time.

On Sun, Dec 9, 2018 at 12:13 PM Kurt Fankhauser
mailto:lists.wavel...@gmail.com>>
wrote:

Ken there is no problem selling 50meg plans on original
450 AP's running 30 mhz channels that only have a dozen
low usage clients. 75/25 downlink ratio and 30mhz channels
should yeild at least 100mbps down on linktests in 8x.
Once you start to load up the AP's its not the original
450 SM's thats the problem its the AP itself as those
things give out at about 70'ish mbps down (even though the
link tests show there is more capacity). At that point you
just switch the AP out with a 450i and you can take
advantage of the beyond 70mbps downlinks.

My original problem is not related to running out of
capacity on the AP as I am clearly able to get the
bandwidth there with the www.openspeedtest.com
 site as well as Mikrotik
Btest (see attached pic). Yes the attached pic is a
Mikrotik router doing a TCP BTEST through an original
450SM and original 450AP that has 15 clients attached to it!

On Sun, Dec 9, 2018 at 9:55 AM Ken Hohhof mailto:af...@kwisp.com>> wrote:

OK, this comment conflicts with your report that the
problem only shows up when testing with speedtest.net
. But still, I have to question
the wisdom of selling 50M plans using Cambium 450.
That’s a lot of throughput for a multipoint platform,
and is only going to work if the stars are aligned.

Is this a 450, 450i, or 450m AP?  What about the SM? 
You could be running into CPU limitations on packets
per second.

Are you using 20,30 or 40 MHz channel width?  What
down/up ratio?  If your configured for 20 MHz and 75%,
you’re selling one subscriber almost the total
capacity of the AP.

Is this subscriber at 8x modulation?  Do you have
other subs on the AP at lower modulations, and if so,
are their QoS settings a lot lower so they get lower
priority, or are you using the new SM priority
features?  A bunch of subs at 2x or 4x can eat up AP
capacity pretty quick.  I’m assuming this isn’t a 450m
with MUMIMO.

Are you monitoring/graphing AP frame utilization? 
This will help diagnose if the AP is running out of
capacity and having to decide which SM gets the
available over-the-air frames.

My impression (could be wrong) is that the Ookla
speedtest doesn’t take a goodput approach, it seeks
out the highest transmit rate at which the packet loss
is tolerable.  I also saw a claim by one of the
bandwidth management products that 450 and ePMP QoS
work differently, 450 by dropping packets, and ePMP by
buffering them, I don’t know if that’s correct.  It
could be that running 450 QoS so close to total AP

Re: [AFMUG] Corning cable for long drops

[Adam Moffett]

The vendor says he's working with corning on the proper hanging hardware.


On 12/8/2018 8:39 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:

I wonder if they have special grips for it.  Like a wirevise:
https://shop.ptsupply.com/shop/hardware/aerial/5058/maclean-senior-industries-llc-wirevise-109-ca07625
*From:* Adam Moffett
*Sent:* Saturday, December 8, 2018 6:17 PM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Corning cable for long drops
Cost unknown at this point, but I should have a quote next week. As 
long as it's cheaper than hanging a messenger strand to hit one house 
then I've got uses for it.



On 12/8/2018 8:03 PM, Chris Fabien wrote:
What's the cost? Would it be robust enough to hang and mainline on a 
rural sideroad?

On Sat, Dec 8, 2018, 7:08 PM Adam Moffett -- 
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Re: [AFMUG] speedtest.net and Canopy/Cambium QOS / burst bucket

[Ken Hohhof]

That’s disappointing.  But not surprising about the mid-gain version that looks 
like a rearview mirror, the vertical beamwidth is too wide.  I know the CLIP 
was not popular, but we actually had very good luck with it.

 

I’m also struggling with the 450b hi-gain.  The xmt power is supposedly 5 dB 
higher but the antenna gain 2 dB less than the original SM with a reflector 
dish.  Maybe that’s an improvement if you have a  lot of interference at the AP 
end, although a 450m should mitigate that.  I can’t convert everything to small 
cells, so 2 dB less antenna gain is not the direction I want to be going.  It 
also drives me crazy now with a mix of 450 and 450b SMs on a sector that you 
can’t pay attention to the signal power in the Sessions tab.  The 450b SMs have 
asymmetric xmt power, so they may look OK, but then you  check the signal at 
the SM and it’s often less than expected.

 

Unfortunately, Cambium intends to discontinue the old SM form factor.  That 
means what might have been popping in a new SM becomes replacing the whole dish.

 

While the 450b hi-gain looks attractive and the radome is nice, I wish Cambium 
would just put the new 450b electronics (tri band, more CPU power, higher xmt 
power) into the old SM form factor.

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Mark Radabaugh
Sent: Monday, December 10, 2018 8:41 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] speedtest.net and Canopy/Cambium QOS / burst bucket

 

On Dec 9, 2018, at 9:54 AM, Ken Hohhof mailto:af...@kwisp.com> > wrote:





Maybe everyone has switched to 450b by now, but we still have mostly the 
regular 450 SMs.  Not gonna go out and swap them all,  especially since a lot 
of them were swaps from FSK or 430.  Tired of throwing away $250 SMs every few 
years.

 

 

 

 

I think you will find 450b’s are not a drop in replacement for regular 450 SM’s 
with reflectors or 450d’s.   Lower gain and seemingly more sensitive to 
reflections when mounted in normal locations on a building.  Replacing them now 
would be painful.

 

Mark

 

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Re: [AFMUG] speedtest.net and Canopy/Cambium QOS / burst bucket

[Mark Radabaugh]

> On Dec 9, 2018, at 9:54 AM, Ken Hohhof  wrote:

> Maybe everyone has switched to 450b by now, but we still have mostly the 
> regular 450 SMs.  Not gonna go out and swap them all,  especially since a lot 
> of them were swaps from FSK or 430.  Tired of throwing away $250 SMs every 
> few years.
>  
>  



I think you will find 450b’s are not a drop in replacement for regular 450 SM’s 
with reflectors or 450d’s.   Lower gain and seemingly more sensitive to 
reflections when mounted in normal locations on a building.  Replacing them now 
would be painful.

Mark

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