7:28 AM
To: agi
Subject: Re: [agi] How To Create General AI Draft2
You're waffling.
You say there's a pattern for chair - DRAW IT. Attached should help you.
Analyse the chairs given in terms of basic visual units. Or show how any
basic units can be applied to them. Draw on
> -Original Message-
> From: Jim Bromer [mailto:jimbro...@gmail.com]
>
> The question for me is not what the
> smallest pieces of visual information necessary to represent the range
> and diversity of kinds of objects are, but how would these diverse
examples
> be woven into highly compres
Ben,
Comments below.
On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 12:00 PM, Ben Goertzel wrote:
>
>
>> The human visual system doesn't evolve like that on the fly. This can be
>> proven by the fact that we all see the same visual illusions. We all exhibit
>> the same visual limitations in the same way. There is much
think they're only a moderate portion of the problem, and not the
> hardest part...
>
> Which is?
>
>
> *From:* Ben Goertzel
> *Sent:* Monday, August 09, 2010 4:57 PM
> *To:* agi
> *Subject:* Re: [agi] How To Create General AI Draft2
>
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 9,
18h 48min 49s
Objet : Re: [agi] How To Create General AI Draft2
Ben:I think that vision and the vision-cognition bridge are important for AGI,
but I think they're only a moderate portion of the problem, and not the hardest
part...
Which is?
From: Ben Goertzel
Sent: Monday, August 09,
Point about DESTIN, it has no preconceived assumptions. Some of
the entities might be chairs, but it will not have been specifically told
about a chair.
- Ian Parker
On 9 August 2010 12:50, Jim Bromer wrote:
> The mind cannot determine whether or not -every- instance of a kind
> of object is
Ben:I think that vision and the vision-cognition bridge are important for AGI,
but I think they're only a moderate portion of the problem, and not the hardest
part...
Which is?
From: Ben Goertzel
Sent: Monday, August 09, 2010 4:57 PM
To: agi
Subject: Re: [agi] How To Create Gener
>
> The human visual system doesn't evolve like that on the fly. This can be
> proven by the fact that we all see the same visual illusions. We all exhibit
> the same visual limitations in the same way. There is much evidence that the
> system doesn't evolve accidentally. It has a limited set of ru
On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 11:42 AM, Mike Tintner wrote:
> Ben: I don't agree that solving vision and the vision-cognition bridge is
> *such* a huge part of AGI, though it's certainly a nontrivial percentage
>
> Presumably because you don't envisage your AGI/computer as an independent
> entity? All i
Ben: I don't agree that solving vision and the vision-cognition bridge is
*such* a huge part of AGI, though it's certainly a nontrivial percentage
Presumably because you don't envisage your AGI/computer as an independent
entity? All its info. is going to have to be entered into it in a specially
Thanks Ben,
I think the biggest difference with the way I approach it is to be
deliberate in how the system solves specific kinds of problems. I haven't
gone into that in detail yet though.
For example, Itamar seems to want to give the AI the basic building blocks
that make up spaciotemporal depe
use is something
> else, like cooling food, you would call it a fridge.
>
> So, maybe the pattern would be, if it has some features like a chair, like
> possible arm rests, a soft bottom, cushions, legs, a back rest, etc. and you
> can't see it being used as anything else, then may
and patterns can, but that a creative
version of maths, dealing in "free forms" and patchworks, could.
P.P.S. "String" - the concept - itself involves an extremely fluid schema - is
a variation, in fact, of the schema of "one/1" - and must embrace many diverse
forms
Hi David,
I read the essay
I think it summarizes well some of the key issues involving the bridge
between perception and cognition, and the hierarchical decomposition of
natural concepts
I find the ideas very harmonious with those of Jeff Hawkins, Itamar Arel,
and other researchers focused o
mally adapt and recognize the new object as a chair. ).
>
> *From:* Jim Bromer
> *Sent:* Monday, August 09, 2010 12:50 PM
> *To:* agi
> *Subject:* Re: [agi] How To Create General AI Draft2
>
> The mind cannot determine whether or not -every- instance of a kind
> of object i
?
>
> *From:* David Jones
> *Sent:* Monday, August 09, 2010 1:34 PM
> *To:* agi
> *Subject:* Re: [agi] How To Create General AI Draft2
>
> You see. This is precisely why I don't want to argue with Mike anymore. "it
> must be a physical pattern". LOL. W
4 PM
To: agi
Subject: Re: [agi] How To Create General AI Draft2
You see. This is precisely why I don't want to argue with Mike anymore. "it
must be a physical pattern". LOL. Who ever said that patterns must be physical?
This is exactly why you can't see my point of view
Examples of nonphysical patterns?
From: David Jones
Sent: Monday, August 09, 2010 1:34 PM
To: agi
Subject: Re: [agi] How To Create General AI Draft2
You see. This is precisely why I don't want to argue with Mike anymore. "it
must be a physical pattern". LOL. Who ever said tha
bject:* Re: [agi] How To Create General AI Draft2
>
> You see. This is precisely why I don't want to argue with Mike anymore. "it
> must be a physical pattern". LOL. Who ever said that patterns must be
> physical? This is exactly why you can't see my point of vie
PS Examples of nonphysical patterns AND how they are applicable to visual AGI.?
From: David Jones
Sent: Monday, August 09, 2010 1:34 PM
To: agi
Subject: Re: [agi] How To Create General AI Draft2
You see. This is precisely why I don't want to argue with Mike anymore. "it
must be
You see. This is precisely why I don't want to argue with Mike anymore. "it
must be a physical pattern". LOL. Who ever said that patterns must be
physical? This is exactly why you can't see my point of view. You impose
unnecessary restrictions on any possible solution when there really are no
such
t; from existing ones. (as
is amply illustrated by my set of fotos). And yet your - an AGI - mind can
normally adapt and recognize the new object as a chair. ).
From: Jim Bromer
Sent: Monday, August 09, 2010 12:50 PM
To: agi
Subject: Re: [agi] How To Create General AI Draft2
The mind cannot d
The mind cannot determine whether or not -every- instance of a kind
of object is that kind of object. I believe that the problem must be a
problem of complexity and it is just that the mind is much better at dealing
with complicated systems of possibilities than any computer program. A
young chil
in answer to
the questions, or, I suggest, keep quiet.
From: David Jones
Sent: Monday, August 09, 2010 11:55 AM
To: agi
Subject: Re: RE: [agi] How To Create General AI Draft2
I agree John that this is a useful exercise. This would be a good discussion if
mike would ever admit that I might be r
n G. Rose
Sent: Monday, August 09, 2010 7:16 AM
To: agi
Subject: RE: [agi] How To Create General AI Draft2
Actually this is quite critical.
Defining a chair - which would agree with each instance of a chair in the
supplied image - is the way a chair should be defined and is the way the min
s. There is a particular one I
would go for though...
John
*From:* Mike Tintner [mailto:tint...@blueyonder.co.uk]
*Sent:* Sunday, August 08, 2010 7:28 AM
To: agi
Subject: Re: [agi] How To Create General AI Draft2
You're waffling.
You say there's a pattern for chair - DRAW
e Tintner [mailto:tint...@blueyonder.co.uk]
> *Sent:* Sunday, August 08, 2010 7:28 AM
> *To:* agi
> *Subject:* Re: [agi] How To Create General AI Draft2
>
>
>
> You're waffling.
>
>
>
> You say there's a pattern for chair - DRAW IT. Attached should help you
though...
John
From: Mike Tintner [mailto:tint...@blueyonder.co.uk]
Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2010 7:28 AM
To: agi
Subject: Re: [agi] How To Create General AI Draft2
You're waffling.
You say there's a pattern for chair - DRAW IT. Attached should help you.
Analyse the chair
s leave it there.
*From:* David Jones
*Sent:* Sunday, August 08, 2010 4:12 PM
To: agi
Subject: Re: [agi] How To Create General AI Draft2
:) what you don't realize is that patterns don't have to be strictly limited
to the actual physical structure.
In fact, the "chair" patter
y constitutes a chair, or any other
concept/class-of-forms is fascinating and central to AGI - you retreat into
vague abstractions while claiming to be interested in visual AGI.
Fine, let's leave it there.
From: David Jones
Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2010 4:12 PM
To: agi
Subject: R
#x27;s a waste.. And woolly and imprecise through
and through.
*From:* David Jones
*Sent:* Sunday, August 08, 2010 1:59 PM
To: agi
Subject: Re: [agi] How To Create General AI Draft2
Mike,
We've argued about this over and over and over. I don't want to repeat
previous arguments
whole approach to AGI is based on variations of what we can call
> "fundamental analysis" - and it's wrong. God/Evolution hasn't built the
> world with any kind of geometric, or other consistent, bricks. He/It is a
> freeform designer. You have to start thinking outside
t, bricks. He/It is a freeform
designer. You have to start thinking outside the box/brick/"fundamental unit".
From: David Jones
Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2010 5:12 AM
To: agi
Subject: Re: [agi] How To Create General AI Draft2
Mike,
I took your comments into consideration and have be
Mike,
I took your comments into consideration and have been updating my paper to
make sure these problems are addressed.
See more comments below.
On Fri, Aug 6, 2010 at 8:15 PM, Mike Tintner wrote:
> 1) You don't define the difference between narrow AI and AGI - or make
> clear why your approa
Abram,
Thanks for the comments.
I think probability is just one way to deal with uncertainty. Defeasible
reasoning is another. Non-monotonic logic of various implementations.
I often think that probability is the wrong way to do some things regarding
AGI design.
Maybe things can't be known with
On Fri, Aug 6, 2010 at 8:22 PM, Abram Demski wrote:
>
> (Without this sort of generality, your approach seems restricted to
> gathering knowledge about whatever events unfold in front of a limited
> quantity of high-quality camera systems which you set up. To be honest, the
> usefulness of that s
David,
Seems like a reasonable argument to me. I agree with the emphasis on
acquiring knowledge. I agree that tackling language first is not the easiest
path. I agree with the comments on compositionality of knowledge & the
regularity of the vast majority of the environment.
Vision seems like a f
al with the NEW -
the unfamiliar, that wh. cannot be broken down into familiar categories, - and
then find ways of dealing with it ad hoc.
You have to demonstrate a capacity for dealing with the new. (As opposed to,
say, narrow AI squares).
From: David Jones
Sent: Friday, August 06, 2010 9:4
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