Re: DIS: [Proto] Aggregates (Contracts, by another means)

[Owen Jacobson]

> On Sep 23, 2017, at 12:54 AM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:
> 
> * An Aggregate is an asset.
> 
> * A player may create eir own Aggregate by announcement, listing a set of 
> assets e owns as constituents.
> 
> * A player who owns an Aggregate may destroy it by announcement. (This is 
> automatic if an Aggregate is “an Asset” but it might be worth calling out 
> given the following conditions.)
> 
> * An aggregate is a fixed asset if any constituent asset is fixed, otherwise 
> it is liquid.
> 
> * An aggregate is fungible if all of its constituent assets are fungible, 
> subject to obvious equivalences, otherwise it is indivisible.
> 
> * Ownership of an aggregate is restricted to entities which may own every one 
> of its constituents.
> 
> * An asset which constitutes an aggregate CAN only be transferred to a 
> recipient if every asset in the aggregate, and the aggregate itself, are also 
> transferred to that recipient. An aggregate CAN only be transferred to a 
> recipient if every constituent is transferred to the same recipient.
> 
> * Rules to the contrary notwithstanding, the following classes of fixed 
> assets CAN be transferred as part of an aggregate: pledges. (Contracts, if we 
> have them.)
> 
> The idea is that someone seeking to create a contract can instead create a 
> pledge, and then (in the same message, probably) create an aggregate 
> containing the pledge and the other affected assets. This is limited - you 
> can’t contract duties this way, only assets - but incredibly flexible as to 
> what kinds of obligation may be transferred. Even if you receive an unwelcome 
> pledge this way, you have ownership of it, and may retract it.

An example real estate contract in this style:

-
I pledge to transfer the aggregate created in this message to Publius 
Scribonius Scholasticus in a timely manner after e pays o 25 shinies.

I create an aggregate containing the previous pledge and the Estate of Faron.
-

-o



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DIS: [Proto] Aggregates (Contracts, by another means)

[Owen Jacobson]

* An Aggregate is an asset.

* A player may create eir own Aggregate by announcement, listing a set of 
assets e owns as constituents.

* A player who owns an Aggregate may destroy it by announcement. (This is 
automatic if an Aggregate is “an Asset” but it might be worth calling out given 
the following conditions.)

* An aggregate is a fixed asset if any constituent asset is fixed, otherwise it 
is liquid.

* An aggregate is fungible if all of its constituent assets are fungible, 
subject to obvious equivalences, otherwise it is indivisible.

* Ownership of an aggregate is restricted to entities which may own every one 
of its constituents.

* An asset which constitutes an aggregate CAN only be transferred to a 
recipient if every asset in the aggregate, and the aggregate itself, are also 
transferred to that recipient. An aggregate CAN only be transferred to a 
recipient if every constituent is transferred to the same recipient.

* Rules to the contrary notwithstanding, the following classes of fixed assets 
CAN be transferred as part of an aggregate: pledges. (Contracts, if we have 
them.)

The idea is that someone seeking to create a contract can instead create a 
pledge, and then (in the same message, probably) create an aggregate containing 
the pledge and the other affected assets. This is limited - you can’t contract 
duties this way, only assets - but incredibly flexible as to what kinds of 
obligation may be transferred. Even if you receive an unwelcome pledge this 
way, you have ownership of it, and may retract it.


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Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Registering

[Cuddle Beam]

>Total Annihilation

OH

BABY

THIS GAME WAS THE  J A M  when I was a wee little kid lol.

holy shit. Such nostalgia.

On Sat, Sep 23, 2017 at 6:27 AM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:

>
> On Sep 22, 2017, at 11:45 PM, Nic Evans  wrote:
>
> As for the gerontocracy argument: Money is an inherently gerontocratic
> system. It abstracts value from labor in a way that allows arbitrary
> allocation.
>
> I'm about 95% sure this is the gist of my partner’s argument when she said
> “inventing money is _rude_” about the original Shinies proposal.
>
> I’m not sure I fully appreciated Spending Power while we had it. The
> debate and adoption predates me. I’ve long had a fascination with
> throughput-based monetary systems like Total Annihilation’s metal economy,
> where the driving numbers are the amount of money in per time, not the
> amount of money in the pile, and SP is as close as I’ve ever seen to that
> in a political system.
>
> -o
>
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Registering

[Owen Jacobson]

> On Sep 22, 2017, at 11:45 PM, Nic Evans  wrote:
> As for the gerontocracy argument: Money is an inherently gerontocratic 
> system. It abstracts value from labor in a way that allows arbitrary 
> allocation.
> 
I'm about 95% sure this is the gist of my partner’s argument when she said 
“inventing money is _rude_” about the original Shinies proposal.

I’m not sure I fully appreciated Spending Power while we had it. The debate and 
adoption predates me. I’ve long had a fascination with throughput-based 
monetary systems like Total Annihilation’s metal economy, where the driving 
numbers are the amount of money in per time, not the amount of money in the 
pile, and SP is as close as I’ve ever seen to that in a political system.

-o



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Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Registering

[Nic Evans]

On 09/22/17 21:40, Owen Jacobson wrote:
>> On Sep 22, 2017, at 10:35 PM, Cuddle Beam  wrote:
>>
>>> but would you consider supporting one that shrinks welcome packages?
>> 
>> http://www.hearthcards.net/cards/9b7efdf4.png
> Alt text: a Hearthstone card with the legend “Gerontocracy Warning”, 
> containing an image of a “Caution: Elderly People” sign. Under the legend, 
> the card text explains: “Counter target Protosal (sic) that buffs the 
> Geronotocracy (sic) or debuffs the non-Gerontocracy.”
>
> I think that's a fair caution. I strongly suspect any form of money that can 
> be accumulated has this problem, and pissing about over the exact numbers 
> doesn’t make a meaningful difference to anything other than the degree of 
> gerontocratic wealth. Since Agora is far, far too short-lived to exhibit 
> meaningful estate law or any investments more reliable than straight-up 
> gambling, we’re reduced to either having _some_ gerontocracy, with 
> pressure-relief mechanisms like the Nuclear Lottery proposal presently under 
> contemplation, or giving up on Shinies as unworkably gerontocratic.

This is why I'm still leaning towards giving new players a Stamp (either
of their own making or from the Agora Stamps proposal I posted a bit
ago). My current thought is 1 Stamp + enough currency for 2 pends/CFJs.
The stamps give them scaling value without immediately changing FV,
while the money discourages them from spending the stamp immediately.

>
> -o
>




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Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Atm

[Quazie]

It was intended as a potential transfer - I believed it likely succeeded -
but explicitly didn't care if it failed
On Fri, Sep 22, 2017 at 20:44 Cuddle Beam  wrote:

> (not really slang but like non-explicit language in general : P )
>
> On Sat, Sep 23, 2017 at 5:43 AM, Cuddle Beam  wrote:
>
>> It feels a bit like a game of Limbo with slang lol. How slang can you
>> go!- before it becomes non-gamestate.
>>
>> On Sat, Sep 23, 2017 at 4:30 AM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:
>>
>>> I’ve accounted for it as one, on the premise that “insert” is a fairly
>>> obvious synonym for “give” in this context, and that there’s exactly one
>>> thing that can both own shinies and receive trust tokens that the noun
>>> “ATM” could reasonably refer to.
>>>
>>> Want to CFJ it? I don’t, but I’ll provide evidence if you do.
>>>
>>> -o
>>>
>>> > On Sep 22, 2017, at 10:27 PM, Gaelan Steele  wrote:
>>> >
>>> > Is this a shiny transfer?
>>> >> On Sep 21, 2017, at 12:32 PM, Quazie  wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> Insert 1 Shiny into the recently registered ATM.
>>> >>
>>> >> I give ATM a trust token.
>>>
>>>
>>
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Atm

[Cuddle Beam]

(not really slang but like non-explicit language in general : P )

On Sat, Sep 23, 2017 at 5:43 AM, Cuddle Beam  wrote:

> It feels a bit like a game of Limbo with slang lol. How slang can you go!-
> before it becomes non-gamestate.
>
> On Sat, Sep 23, 2017 at 4:30 AM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:
>
>> I’ve accounted for it as one, on the premise that “insert” is a fairly
>> obvious synonym for “give” in this context, and that there’s exactly one
>> thing that can both own shinies and receive trust tokens that the noun
>> “ATM” could reasonably refer to.
>>
>> Want to CFJ it? I don’t, but I’ll provide evidence if you do.
>>
>> -o
>>
>> > On Sep 22, 2017, at 10:27 PM, Gaelan Steele  wrote:
>> >
>> > Is this a shiny transfer?
>> >> On Sep 21, 2017, at 12:32 PM, Quazie  wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Insert 1 Shiny into the recently registered ATM.
>> >>
>> >> I give ATM a trust token.
>>
>>
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Atm

[Cuddle Beam]

It feels a bit like a game of Limbo with slang lol. How slang can you go!-
before it becomes non-gamestate.

On Sat, Sep 23, 2017 at 4:30 AM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:

> I’ve accounted for it as one, on the premise that “insert” is a fairly
> obvious synonym for “give” in this context, and that there’s exactly one
> thing that can both own shinies and receive trust tokens that the noun
> “ATM” could reasonably refer to.
>
> Want to CFJ it? I don’t, but I’ll provide evidence if you do.
>
> -o
>
> > On Sep 22, 2017, at 10:27 PM, Gaelan Steele  wrote:
> >
> > Is this a shiny transfer?
> >> On Sep 21, 2017, at 12:32 PM, Quazie  wrote:
> >>
> >> Insert 1 Shiny into the recently registered ATM.
> >>
> >> I give ATM a trust token.
>
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Registering

[Nic Evans]

On 09/22/17 21:44, Cuddle Beam wrote:
> memes aside, I think that we're young enough in this current system
> that I don't mind there being player-wide taxing or rebalancing or
> something until we settle on something stable.
>
> HOWEVER, a way to look at it is that having the floating value be
> really low when a new player joins (because of the welcome package
> drain) is a GOOD thing. It's GOOD that there is a surge of activity
> when somebody joins imo, proposing and general nomicking is the *best*
> welcoming environment imo (aside from just greeting the person
> ourselves and such, but being able to show off Agora right at that
> moment imo is actually pretty superb af).

One of the most grounded arguments I think you've made.

However, any amount of welcome package award will lower FV, and the
current one does it too extremely while putting a lot of currency in the
hands of someone unlikely to use that currency.

As for the gerontocracy argument: Money is an inherently gerontocratic
system. It abstracts value from labor in a way that allows arbitrary
allocation.

>
> On Sat, Sep 23, 2017 at 4:40 AM, Owen Jacobson  > wrote:
>
>
> > On Sep 22, 2017, at 10:35 PM, Cuddle Beam  > wrote:
> >
> > >but would you consider supporting one that shrinks welcome
> packages?
> > 
> > http://www.hearthcards.net/cards/9b7efdf4.png
> 
>
> Alt text: a Hearthstone card with the legend “Gerontocracy
> Warning”, containing an image of a “Caution: Elderly People” sign.
> Under the legend, the card text explains: “Counter target Protosal
> (sic) that buffs the Geronotocracy (sic) or debuffs the
> non-Gerontocracy.”
>
> I think that's a fair caution. I strongly suspect any form of
> money that can be accumulated has this problem, and pissing about
> over the exact numbers doesn’t make a meaningful difference to
> anything other than the degree of gerontocratic wealth. Since
> Agora is far, far too short-lived to exhibit meaningful estate law
> or any investments more reliable than straight-up gambling, we’re
> reduced to either having _some_ gerontocracy, with pressure-relief
> mechanisms like the Nuclear Lottery proposal presently under
> contemplation, or giving up on Shinies as unworkably gerontocratic.
>
> -o
>
>



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Re: DIS: Proto: Banking and Bonds (v2)

[Owen Jacobson]

I normally try to avoid this, because it’s an invitation to line-by-line 
wrangling, but I have some fairly specific feedback on wording. Before I get 
into it, some comments on the overall structure:

It’s good. In particular, I appreciate the possibility of multiple banks, 
though I suspect we’ll average 1.8 banks at most: any transient banks, or if 
we’re particularly lucky, any long-term banks other than the CBA, will likely 
act as proving grounds for bank policy more than anything else.

> On Sep 21, 2017, at 12:57 PM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus 
>  wrote:
> 
> In response to feedback, here is the new banking proposal, if I don't get 
> negative feedback, I plan to pend it this week:
> {
> All "+" and "-" symbols in the body of this proposal should be ignored and 
> shall have no effect on the ruleset or game state.
> 
> Replace the following line in "Assets":
> -  restricted to Agora, persons, and organizations.
> with:
> +  restricted to Agora, persons, organizations, and Agoran Institutions.

The rule defining Agoran Institutions seems to have gotten lost in the 
refactoring.

> Create a power-2 rule titled "Banking" with the following text:
> +  A Bank is an Agoran Institution. A Bank shall have a charter, a length, 
> and a
> +  banker.

“It is ILLEGAL for a bank not to have a charter, or not to have a length, or 
not to have a banker”? Who receives the card?

> The Central Bank of Agora is the bank who is responsible for the
> +  conduct of business and issuance of bonds on behalf of Agora. The length 
> of a
> +  bank is the period during which the bank will operate. If at any time,
> +  a Central Bank of Agora is not declared, then the Secretary CAN and SHALL
> +  declare a bank to be the Central Bank of Agora.

This rule appears to define the existence of the CBA, before contemplating what 
should happen if the CBA does not exist. I suspect you meant to define this in 
terms of a regulation-like construct governed by the Secretary, though frankly 
I have no idea how to write such a beast either.

> +  A Bank is able to issue a currency and issue bonds. The charter of a
> +  bank shall establish the method by which a bond or currency can be issued.

Given that “a currency” is already defined, this bolts onto the assets 
framework quite well.

To make sure I follow: each bank has the option of issuing its own currency, in 
arbitrary amounts as defined by the charter of that bank? This is consistent 
with historical banking practice, but I worry that N currencies might be a bit 
much. I’d like to find out, so if that was your intent, please continue, but I 
wanted to make sure I understood.

> +  Any person CAN create a Bank without objection by specifying its charter, 
> its
> +  length and recommending a banker. The Secretary CAN create a bank with 
> Agoran
> +  Consent by specifying its charter, its length and appointing a banker.

What is the difference between “recommending” and “appointing?”

What is the difference between the First Bank of PSS and a bank created by the 
Secretary, generally, that justifies the difference in consent requirements?

> The
> +  charter of a bank SHALL state its purpose, and its governance structure. 
> If at
> +  any time, a Bank lacks a Banker, the Secretary CAN and SHALL appoint a 
> Banker
> +  in accordanence with the charter of the Bank or SHALL destroy the bank.

"Or CAN and SHALL…", I think. I appreciate the escape hatch, as - I’m sure - do 
future Secretaries.

Does destroying a Bank destroy instances of its currency? Or do they float as 
loose assets indefinitely?

Come to think of it, who recordkeeps a bank-created currency? There’s no 
fallback recordkeepor, and so, nobody who can ratify or who is obliged to 
report on instances of bank-created currencies. If the intent is to allow for 
bank-specific currencies, the bank’s Banker may need to be designated as 
recordkeepor for each currency.

> If any
> +  bank has existed for longer than allowed by its charter or its length, then
> +  the Banker and the Secretary CAN destroy it and the Banker SHALL do so in a
> +  timely manner. The Secretary CAN destroy a bank without object or with 
> Agoran
> +  Consent.

“Without objection,” though I suspect that specific construction has problems. 
If you meant that the Secretary should need at least one supporting message, 
then “with Agoran Consent” is sufficient; if you meant that the Secretary must 
not receive any objecting messages, then “Without Objection” is sufficient; if 
you meant both, then you’ll need to invent something clearer.

> Create a new power-2 rule titled "Bonds", with the following text:
> +  Bonds are a type of asset. Bonds CAN be converted according to their 
> issuance
> +  document.

With the term “converted” open-ended like this, and with conversion permitted 
by a P=2.0 rule, I worry that this might allow bonds to directly create 
currencies, including Shinies.

> Rules to the 

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] Make Your Home Shine

[Cuddle Beam]

>I’m not, at least for the present. Agora cannot receive cards, and in any
case, carding Agora has no ludic effect, platonic OR pragmatic.

Agora would need to be a person too. (because "The person
 to whom the Card
 is being issued (the bad sport),
and" in R2426)

I don't think that with our current definition of Person and Agora, we'd
ever be able to have Agora be a Person, because Agora, as the gestalt of
our game actions, depends on our own "independent thoughts" to exist,
because it's those which create game actions and everything Agora "is"
(according to the Ruleset definition of itself).

On Sat, Sep 23, 2017 at 3:52 AM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:

> On Sep 22, 2017, at 9:46 PM, Nic Evans  wrote:
>
> > Also, I am curious about the implications of Agora doing
> > something ILLEGAL.
>
> I’m not, at least for the present. Agora cannot receive cards, and in any
> case, carding Agora has no ludic effect, platonic OR pragmatic.
>
> On 09/22/17 19:46, Owen Jacobson wrote:
>
> >To "call in" a pledge" is to destroy it. A player can call in
> >any pledge with Agoran Consent, if e announces a reason the
> >Terms of the pledge should be considered broken. Support for an
> >intent to call in a pledge is INEFFECTIVE unless the supporting
> >player explicitly confirms the reasons that the pledge should
> >be considered broken.
> >
> >It is ILLEGAL to own a pledge when it is called in.
>
> On Sep 22, 2017, at 9:46 PM, Nic Evans  wrote:
>
> > Should be uppercase CAN in "A player can call in" I think. Also should
> > there be MAYs? I'm still confused about that.
>
> It should, for consistency if for no other reason. It’s also possible that
> that “can” is meaningfully different from “CAN” in this context. Thanks.
>
> I believe that MAYs are not required here, as the actions defined here are
> not otherwise made illegal in any way. They’re Regulated, which means it is
> only possible to do them as described, but they’re not obviously in
> contravention of a SHALL NOT or similar anywhere. MAY appears to be useful
> for carving out exceptions to blanket illegality, not for ensuring that an
> action that’s otherwise not defined as being either illegal or as legal
> will be legal. CANs are sufficient for that, in most cases, by my read of
> Mother, May I? and related precedent.
>
> -o
>
>

Re: DIS: Re: OFF: [ADoP] Resolving Elections: Correctly this time!

[Owen Jacobson]

> On Sep 22, 2017, at 9:13 PM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus 
>  wrote:
> 
> We could also just make all assets ownable by persons or make all assets go 
> at reregistration to Agora, but then they may be reclaimed upon registration, 
> in quantities decreasing over time.

That’s workable for fungible assets, but for non-fungibles, it’s much trickier. 
Furthermore, any system simulating estate law is going to impose burdens on at 
least the recordkeepors of the affected assets, and likely on the Arbitor and 
Referee as well when the inevitable disputes arise.

The notes towards addressing this on, ah ha, the supply side by tweaking 
deregistration-by-ratification seem more workable, to me, though I’ll happily 
consider proposals to the contrary.

-o




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Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Registering

[Owen Jacobson]

> On Sep 22, 2017, at 10:44 PM, Cuddle Beam  wrote:
> 
> memes aside, I think that we're young enough in this current system that I 
> don't mind there being player-wide taxing or rebalancing or something until 
> we settle on something stable.
> 
> HOWEVER, a way to look at it is that having the floating value be really low 
> when a new player joins (because of the welcome package drain) is a GOOD 
> thing. It's GOOD that there is a surge of activity when somebody joins imo, 
> proposing and general nomicking is the *best* welcoming environment imo 
> (aside from just greeting the person ourselves and such, but being able to 
> show off Agora right at that moment imo is actually pretty superb af).

I’m proud of you. This is a wonderful argument.

-o



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Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Registering

[Cuddle Beam]

memes aside, I think that we're young enough in this current system that I
don't mind there being player-wide taxing or rebalancing or something until
we settle on something stable.

HOWEVER, a way to look at it is that having the floating value be really
low when a new player joins (because of the welcome package drain) is a
GOOD thing. It's GOOD that there is a surge of activity when somebody joins
imo, proposing and general nomicking is the *best* welcoming environment
imo (aside from just greeting the person ourselves and such, but being able
to show off Agora right at that moment imo is actually pretty superb af).

On Sat, Sep 23, 2017 at 4:40 AM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:

>
> > On Sep 22, 2017, at 10:35 PM, Cuddle Beam  wrote:
> >
> > >but would you consider supporting one that shrinks welcome packages?
> > 
> > http://www.hearthcards.net/cards/9b7efdf4.png
>
> Alt text: a Hearthstone card with the legend “Gerontocracy Warning”,
> containing an image of a “Caution: Elderly People” sign. Under the legend,
> the card text explains: “Counter target Protosal (sic) that buffs the
> Geronotocracy (sic) or debuffs the non-Gerontocracy.”
>
> I think that's a fair caution. I strongly suspect any form of money that
> can be accumulated has this problem, and pissing about over the exact
> numbers doesn’t make a meaningful difference to anything other than the
> degree of gerontocratic wealth. Since Agora is far, far too short-lived to
> exhibit meaningful estate law or any investments more reliable than
> straight-up gambling, we’re reduced to either having _some_ gerontocracy,
> with pressure-relief mechanisms like the Nuclear Lottery proposal presently
> under contemplation, or giving up on Shinies as unworkably gerontocratic.
>
> -o
>
>

DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] Make Your Home Shine

[Ørjan Johansen]

On Fri, 22 Sep 2017, Owen Jacobson wrote:


Title: Make Your Home Shine
Author: o
Co-authors: CuddleBeam, Ørjan, V.J Rada
AI: 1.7



Ratify the following statement:

   {
   The only pledge owned by o was created on Aug 23, 2017.
   }


You need AI >= 3 for ratification.

Greetings,
Ørjan.

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Registering

[Owen Jacobson]

> On Sep 22, 2017, at 10:35 PM, Cuddle Beam  wrote:
> 
> >but would you consider supporting one that shrinks welcome packages?
> 
> http://www.hearthcards.net/cards/9b7efdf4.png

Alt text: a Hearthstone card with the legend “Gerontocracy Warning”, containing 
an image of a “Caution: Elderly People” sign. Under the legend, the card text 
explains: “Counter target Protosal (sic) that buffs the Geronotocracy (sic) or 
debuffs the non-Gerontocracy.”

I think that's a fair caution. I strongly suspect any form of money that can be 
accumulated has this problem, and pissing about over the exact numbers doesn’t 
make a meaningful difference to anything other than the degree of gerontocratic 
wealth. Since Agora is far, far too short-lived to exhibit meaningful estate 
law or any investments more reliable than straight-up gambling, we’re reduced 
to either having _some_ gerontocracy, with pressure-relief mechanisms like the 
Nuclear Lottery proposal presently under contemplation, or giving up on Shinies 
as unworkably gerontocratic.

-o



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Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Atm

[Owen Jacobson]

I’ve accounted for it as one, on the premise that “insert” is a fairly obvious 
synonym for “give” in this context, and that there’s exactly one thing that can 
both own shinies and receive trust tokens that the noun “ATM” could reasonably 
refer to.

Want to CFJ it? I don’t, but I’ll provide evidence if you do.

-o

> On Sep 22, 2017, at 10:27 PM, Gaelan Steele  wrote:
> 
> Is this a shiny transfer?
>> On Sep 21, 2017, at 12:32 PM, Quazie  wrote:
>> 
>> Insert 1 Shiny into the recently registered ATM.
>> 
>> I give ATM a trust token.



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DIS: Re: BUS: Atm

[Gaelan Steele]

Is this a shiny transfer?
> On Sep 21, 2017, at 12:32 PM, Quazie  wrote:
> 
> Insert 1 Shiny into the recently registered ATM.
> 
> I give ATM a trust token.

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Registering

[Nic Evans]

On 09/22/17 21:18, Owen Jacobson wrote:
> On Sep 22, 2017, at 10:45 AM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
>> given that it's so far mostly been the new player award that trips the big
>> drop in Agora balance, automatic right-sizing of the economy to the number
>> of players seems important an stability fix (maybe something to couple with
>> any final minimum wage proposal).
> I suspect that welcome packages are considerably too large, but I don’t think 
> that that was at all obvious at the time. Consider: in the last month or so, 
> the pending price has fluctuated between 1 and, approximately, 6 sh. 
> repeatedly. We’ve actually managed to keep most shinies in the hands of 
> player. 50 sh. is enough to author and pend more proposals than I have 
> written since I started playing, more than a year ago - and each Welcome 
> Package causes the pend price to drop at least one full shiny in the 
> following week.
>
> I strongly suspect that that’s more economic impact than intended or wanted. 
> I know you’re planning to vote against any economy proposals that doesn’t 
> enact a reliable source of shinies in one form or another, but would you 
> consider supporting one that shrinks welcome packages?
>
> -o
>

To add to this: While I see the issue with shinies being unreliable to
get, I personally think the bigger issue is shinies not being spent
readily. It was meant to be a boom bust system, after all.



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Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Registering

[Owen Jacobson]

On Sep 22, 2017, at 10:45 AM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
> 
> given that it's so far mostly been the new player award that trips the big
> drop in Agora balance, automatic right-sizing of the economy to the number
> of players seems important an stability fix (maybe something to couple with
> any final minimum wage proposal).

I suspect that welcome packages are considerably too large, but I don’t think 
that that was at all obvious at the time. Consider: in the last month or so, 
the pending price has fluctuated between 1 and, approximately, 6 sh. 
repeatedly. We’ve actually managed to keep most shinies in the hands of player. 
50 sh. is enough to author and pend more proposals than I have written since I 
started playing, more than a year ago - and each Welcome Package causes the 
pend price to drop at least one full shiny in the following week.

I strongly suspect that that’s more economic impact than intended or wanted. I 
know you’re planning to vote against any economy proposals that doesn’t enact a 
reliable source of shinies in one form or another, but would you consider 
supporting one that shrinks welcome packages?

-o



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Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] Make Your Home Shine

[Owen Jacobson]

On Sep 22, 2017, at 9:46 PM, Nic Evans  wrote:

> Also, I am curious about the implications of Agora doing
> something ILLEGAL.

I’m not, at least for the present. Agora cannot receive cards, and in any case, 
carding Agora has no ludic effect, platonic OR pragmatic.

On 09/22/17 19:46, Owen Jacobson wrote:

>To "call in" a pledge" is to destroy it. A player can call in
>any pledge with Agoran Consent, if e announces a reason the
>Terms of the pledge should be considered broken. Support for an
>intent to call in a pledge is INEFFECTIVE unless the supporting
>player explicitly confirms the reasons that the pledge should
>be considered broken.
> 
>It is ILLEGAL to own a pledge when it is called in.

On Sep 22, 2017, at 9:46 PM, Nic Evans  wrote:

> Should be uppercase CAN in "A player can call in" I think. Also should
> there be MAYs? I'm still confused about that.

It should, for consistency if for no other reason. It’s also possible that that 
“can” is meaningfully different from “CAN” in this context. Thanks.

I believe that MAYs are not required here, as the actions defined here are not 
otherwise made illegal in any way. They’re Regulated, which means it is only 
possible to do them as described, but they’re not obviously in contravention of 
a SHALL NOT or similar anywhere. MAY appears to be useful for carving out 
exceptions to blanket illegality, not for ensuring that an action that’s 
otherwise not defined as being either illegal or as legal will be legal. CANs 
are sufficient for that, in most cases, by my read of Mother, May I? and 
related precedent.

-o



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Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [Arbitor] CFJ 3559 assigned to o

[Owen Jacobson]

> On Sep 21, 2017, at 11:23 AM, Cuddle Beam  wrote:
> 
> I could write an Agency with that same thing + output, for example, something 
> like:
> 
> ---*---
> Any agent may take 1 shiny from Cuddlebeam and the following clause has no 
> effect.
> 
> Any agent may take 2 shiny from Cuddlebeam and the previous clause has no 
> effect.
> ---*—

An agency isn’t an Instrument or a Proposal. Both of those classes of document 
are “special” in rules-defined ways, and special by precedent. Paradoxical 
documents generally are actually quite well handled: they have no effect, even 
if the kind of document they are would otherwise have an effect. Instruments, 
however, have the capacity to govern*, via the framework laid out in rules 1688 
(“Power”) and 105 (“Rule Changes”).

This capacity is considerably broader than the capacity of an Agency to define 
the powers of Agents. By historical convention, _rules_ - the primary kind of 
governing instrument - may in fact be paradoxical, and the paradoxes are taken 
to be “real” in as far as the term is meaningful. It’s not much of a stretch, 
based on the above, to extend that kind of exceptionality to instruments 
generally.

-o

* Yes, I know that that’s not what rule 2141 (“Roles and Attributes of Rules”) 
says. Bear with me.


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Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] Make Your Home Shine

[Nic Evans]

On 09/22/17 20:46, Nic Evans wrote:
>
> On 09/22/17 19:46, Owen Jacobson wrote:
>
>> Create a pledge owned by nichdel, whose terms are
>>
>> {
>> I pledge to not acknowledge any messages Cuddle Beam sends to
>> a-d, or to respond in a-d to anything CB does.
>> }
> I already broke this pledge, which I believe makes it impossible for me
> to be punished for it again. Thus this is equivalent to remaking the
> pledge for me.

I forgot to cut out everything above this to make it more visible, so
here it is again.



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DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] Make Your Home Shine

[Nic Evans]

On 09/22/17 19:46, Owen Jacobson wrote:
> I noticed a significant mechanical defect and a style defect after I pended 
> it, so I withdraw the proposal “Make Your Home Shine” and submit the 
> following proposal in its place. This time, for sure!
>
> Title: Make Your Home Shine
> Author: o
> Co-authors: CuddleBeam, Ørjan, V.J Rada
> AI: 1.7
>
> {{{
> This proposal CANNOT create a pledge, other than via clauses that begin 
> "Create
> a pledge".
>
> Amend rule 2450 ("Pledges") to read, in full:
>
> {
> Pledges are an indestructible fixed asset. Ownership of pledges
> is restricted to persons. The Referee is the recordkeepor of
> pledges. Creating, destroying, modifying, and transferring
> pledges are secured.
>
> To "pledge" something is to create a pledge with those terms. A
> person CAN pledge by announcement to create a pledge e owns.
>
> To "retract" (syn "withdraw") a pledge is to destroy it. A
> person CAN retract a pledge e owns without objection.
>
> To "call in" a pledge" is to destroy it. A player can call in
> any pledge with Agoran Consent, if e announces a reason the
> Terms of the pledge should be considered broken. Support for an
> intent to call in a pledge is INEFFECTIVE unless the supporting
> player explicitly confirms the reasons that the pledge should
> be considered broken.
>
> It is ILLEGAL to own a pledge when it is called in.

Should be uppercase CAN in "A player can call in" I think. Also should
there be MAYs? I'm still confused about that.

Otherwise I *think* you've done as much as possible to make this
airtight. My main concern is that Agora will eventually somehow own a
pledge, which appears to be transferable regardless of the 'fixed'
property. Also, I am curious about the implications of Agora doing
something ILLEGAL.

> }
>
> Create a pledge owned by Quazie, whose terms are
>
> {
> I pledge to give 1 Shiny to the first person who can,
> correctly, with e-mail citations, explain what I did wrong on
> Jan 20th 2009 that has since led to me being a fugitive. For
> the explanation to be valid for this pledge, it should be fully
> self contained, I should not have to go look up past rules in
> order to understand the explanation (So please, include all
> source info in the explanation).
> }
>
> Create a pledge owned by V.J Rada, whose terms are
>
> {
> However I now pledge to include more recapping of agoran events
> in future newspapers.
> }
>
> Create a pledge owned by V.J Rada, whose terms are
>
> {
> I pledge not to make any thread titles completely unrelated to
> the email's content, nor use any agency or other mechanism to
> attempt to gain control of any player at the exclusion of all
> other players.
> }
>
> Create a pledge owned by o, whose terms are
>
> {
> I pledge that, for the next month, if I have not yet paid a
> total of 30 shinies under this pledge, and a player pledges to
> pay me 6 Shinies within a month, I will pay em 5 Shinies in a
> timely fashion.
> }
>
> Ratify the following statement:
>
> {
> The only pledge owned by o was created on Aug 23, 2017.
> }
>
> Create a pledge owned by Gaelan, whose terms are
>
> {
> I pledge to, for at least the next month, vote AGAINST any
> proposal that amends rules by providing new text in full unless
> the text of the rule is nearly entirely changed.
> }
>
> Ratify the following statement:
>
> {
> The only pledge owned by Gaelan was created on Sep 14, 2017.
> }
>
> Create a pledge owned by nichdel, whose terms are
>
> {
> I pledge to vote AGAINST on all proposals created or pended by
> Cuddle Beam.
> }
>
> Create a pledge owned by nichdel, whose terms are
>
> {
> I pledge to Object to all intentions by Cuddle Beam that I can
> object to.
> }
>
> Create a pledge owned by nichdel, whose terms are
>
> {
> I pledge to not acknowledge any messages Cuddle Beam sends to
> a-d, or to respond in a-d to anything CB does.
> }

I already broke this pledge, which I believe makes it impossible for me
to be punished for it again. Thus this is equivalent to remaking the
pledge for me.

>
> Create a pledge owned by nichdel, whose terms are
>
> {
> I pledge to give a trust token and 5 shinies (as soon as
> possible) to any other player who also performs the above three
> pledges, except Cuddle Beam.
> }
>
> Create a pledge owned by nichdel, whose terms are
>
> {
> I pledge to not refer to 天火狐 as Josh or Josh T.
> }
>
> Create a pledge owned by Publius Scribonius Scholasticus, whose terms
> are
>
> {
> I too pledge to not refer to 天火狐 as Josh or Josh T.
> 

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] Make Your Home Shine

[Alex Smith]

On Fri, 2017-09-22 at 21:13 -0400, Owen Jacobson wrote:
> Rule 2166:
> 
> > A fixed asset is one defined as such by its backing document, and
> > CANNOT be transferred; any other asset is liquid.
> 
> Proposal:
> 
> > Pledges are an indestructible fixed asset.
> 
> I’m assuming that framework for fixed assets actually functions, of
> course.

Aha. Somehow I was fixated on the "indestructible" and missed the
"fixed".

-- 
ais523

Re: DIS: Re: OFF: [ADoP] Resolving Elections: Correctly this time!

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus]

We could also just make all assets ownable by persons or make all assets go at 
reregistration to Agora, but then they may be reclaimed upon registration, in 
quantities decreasing over time.

Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com



> On Sep 22, 2017, at 9:08 PM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Sep 21, 2017, at 10:24 AM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> It occurs to me that (thinking back over a couple years), several 
>> registration
>> errors have been ratified, and given that this kicks people out of the game,
>> it's a fairly big error that can lead to anger.  Also changes in registration
>> are infrequent enough that a weekly reset isn't needed, it's not too hard to 
>> go
>> back a little further and reconstruct.  So I'm thinking that weekly 
>> ratification
>> is too much for playerhood, maybe monthly…?
> 
> It now also costs people all of their assets other than those that can be 
> owned by persons. That’s a double-edged sword: an Estate is quite valuable 
> and relatively hard to recover if one loses it, while losing all of one’s 
> shinies can largely be undone with a Welcome Package.
> 
> I’ve got an idea gestating for an escrow-alike, though, and having that get 
> broken by undetected ratification-deregs sounds like a recipe for trouble.
> 
> -o
> 



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Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] Make Your Home Shine

[Owen Jacobson]

> On Sep 22, 2017, at 9:09 PM, Alex Smith  wrote:
> 
> On Fri, 2017-09-22 at 20:46 -0400, Owen Jacobson wrote:
>> I noticed a significant mechanical defect and a style defect after I
>> pended it, so I withdraw the proposal “Make Your Home Shine” and
>> submit the following proposal in its place. This time, for sure!
> 
> What prevents pledge owners from transferring them to other players?
> Rule 2166 generally allows players to transfer assets away, and I
> didn't notice anything here that stops that (stating that doing so is
> secured simply prevents low-powered rules permitting the transfer, and
> rule 2166 is easily powerful enough).

Rule 2166:

> A fixed asset is one defined as such by its backing document, and CANNOT be 
> transferred; any other asset is liquid.

Proposal:

> Pledges are an indestructible fixed asset.

I’m assuming that framework for fixed assets actually functions, of course.

-o



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Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] Make Your Home Shine

[Aris Merchant]

They're defined as a "fixed" asset, which means they can't be transferred.

-Aris

On Fri, Sep 22, 2017 at 6:09 PM, Alex Smith  wrote:
> On Fri, 2017-09-22 at 20:46 -0400, Owen Jacobson wrote:
>> I noticed a significant mechanical defect and a style defect after I
>> pended it, so I withdraw the proposal “Make Your Home Shine” and
>> submit the following proposal in its place. This time, for sure!
>
> What prevents pledge owners from transferring them to other players?
> Rule 2166 generally allows players to transfer assets away, and I
> didn't notice anything here that stops that (stating that doing so is
> secured simply prevents low-powered rules permitting the transfer, and
> rule 2166 is easily powerful enough).
>
> --
> ais523

DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] Make Your Home Shine

[Alex Smith]

On Fri, 2017-09-22 at 20:46 -0400, Owen Jacobson wrote:
> I noticed a significant mechanical defect and a style defect after I
> pended it, so I withdraw the proposal “Make Your Home Shine” and
> submit the following proposal in its place. This time, for sure!

What prevents pledge owners from transferring them to other players?
Rule 2166 generally allows players to transfer assets away, and I
didn't notice anything here that stops that (stating that doing so is
secured simply prevents low-powered rules permitting the transfer, and
rule 2166 is easily powerful enough).

-- 
ais523

Re: DIS: Re: OFF: [ADoP] Resolving Elections: Correctly this time!

[Owen Jacobson]

> On Sep 21, 2017, at 10:24 AM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> It occurs to me that (thinking back over a couple years), several registration
> errors have been ratified, and given that this kicks people out of the game,
> it's a fairly big error that can lead to anger.  Also changes in registration
> are infrequent enough that a weekly reset isn't needed, it's not too hard to 
> go
> back a little further and reconstruct.  So I'm thinking that weekly 
> ratification
> is too much for playerhood, maybe monthly…?

It now also costs people all of their assets other than those that can be owned 
by persons. That’s a double-edged sword: an Estate is quite valuable and 
relatively hard to recover if one loses it, while losing all of one’s shinies 
can largely be undone with a Welcome Package.

I’ve got an idea gestating for an escrow-alike, though, and having that get 
broken by undetected ratification-deregs sounds like a recipe for trouble.

-o



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Re: DIS: Re: OFF: [ADoP] Resolving Elections: Correctly this time!

[Owen Jacobson]

> On Sep 21, 2017, at 9:33 AM, grok (caleb vines)  wrote:
> 
> On Thu, Sep 21, 2017 at 2:45 AM, VJ Rada  wrote:
>> Registrar
>> This result has changed. Nichdel had three first-preference votes, but
>> PSS had six and remains registrar. This resolver disagrees with the
>> result. Anyway.
> 
> 
> Either people forgot that PSS attempted to deregister me by
> ratification four weeks in a row or it wasn't important enough for
> anyone to care. But in either case, I'm pretty unhappy with the result
> of the registrar election and with the players who voted PSS back into
> the position.

Mea culpa. I wasn’t paying close attention, as I only have a very small number 
of opinions about offices, but that one does in fact stick out and I should 
have taken it into account when voting. I won’t swear that I necessarily would 
have voted differently, but I admit to not considering it.

-o



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Re: DIS: New player, just registered

[ATMunn .]

Yeah, I understood that it was posted to agora-discussion intentionally. My
post was mostly a joke.

I have come across the Spivak thing, and was wondering about it some.
Thanks for the explanation.

On Fri, Sep 22, 2017 at 8:18 PM, Alex Smith 
wrote:

> On Fri, 2017-09-22 at 20:09 -0400, ATMunn . wrote:
> > I'm tempted to actually initiate a CFJ on that now.
> >
> > Is that a dumb idea?
> > That's probably a dumb idea.
> >
> > But maybe it's not. I have no idea.
>
> I'm pretty sure it was posted to agora-discussion intentionally,
> meaning that it can't take game actions.
>
> It might well have been somewhat ambiguous if posted to agora-business;
> we used to have a rule that typos didn't matter when submitting actions
> (unless the result was unclear), but we don't any more, so the old
> precedent (that it works) might not apply nowadays.
>
> I'd guess it works, though; we allow actions in foreign languages if
> everyone understands what they mean, and typoed English/Spivak is just
> as understandable. (As you're new, and might not have come across this:
> Spivak is the language in which Agora is typically played, and is
> similar to English, but a few of the pronouns are different. Notably,
> third-person singular pronouns are "e/em/eir/emself", e.g. "e" combines
> the normal meanings of "he", "she" and "it". This is useful when the
> rules sometimes require you to treat an abstract concept as though it
> were a person; they don't at the moment, but have under several
> previous rulesets. They also get around any need to learn people's
> pronoun genders.)
>
> --
> ais523
>

Re: DIS: New player, just registered

[Alex Smith]

On Fri, 2017-09-22 at 20:09 -0400, ATMunn . wrote:
> I'm tempted to actually initiate a CFJ on that now.
> 
> Is that a dumb idea?
> That's probably a dumb idea.
> 
> But maybe it's not. I have no idea.

I'm pretty sure it was posted to agora-discussion intentionally,
meaning that it can't take game actions.

It might well have been somewhat ambiguous if posted to agora-business; 
we used to have a rule that typos didn't matter when submitting actions
(unless the result was unclear), but we don't any more, so the old
precedent (that it works) might not apply nowadays.

I'd guess it works, though; we allow actions in foreign languages if
everyone understands what they mean, and typoed English/Spivak is just
as understandable. (As you're new, and might not have come across this:
Spivak is the language in which Agora is typically played, and is
similar to English, but a few of the pronouns are different. Notably,
third-person singular pronouns are "e/em/eir/emself", e.g. "e" combines
the normal meanings of "he", "she" and "it". This is useful when the
rules sometimes require you to treat an abstract concept as though it
were a person; they don't at the moment, but have under several
previous rulesets. They also get around any need to learn people's
pronoun genders.)

-- 
ais523

Re: DIS: New player, just registered

[ATMunn .]

I'm tempted to actually initiate a CFJ on that now.

Is that a dumb idea?
That's probably a dumb idea.

But maybe it's not. I have no idea.

On Fri, Sep 22, 2017 at 7:50 PM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:

>
> On Sep 22, 2017, at 7:14 PM, Jonathan Rouillard <
> jonathan.rouill...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Fri, Sep 22, 2017 at 11:35 AM Owen Jacobson  wrote:
> > * Find the most unlikely interpretations of the rules and call endless
> CFJs to support those interpretations.
>
> Finding them is optional in certain circumstances. Sometimes they show up
> on their own. I submit the following into evidence:
>
> CJF: ATMunn is a player.
>
> Welcome to Agora! =)
>
> ~ Roujo
>
>
> Hah! Not a CFJ, though.
>
> -o
>
>

Re: DIS: New player, just registered

[Owen Jacobson]

> On Sep 22, 2017, at 7:14 PM, Jonathan Rouillard 
>  wrote:
> 
> On Fri, Sep 22, 2017 at 11:35 AM Owen Jacobson  > wrote:
> > * Find the most unlikely interpretations of the rules and call endless CFJs 
> > to support those interpretations.
> 
> Finding them is optional in certain circumstances. Sometimes they show up on 
> their own. I submit the following into evidence:
> 
> CJF: ATMunn is a player.
> 
> Welcome to Agora! =)
> 
> ~ Roujo

Hah! Not a CFJ, though.

-o



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Re: DIS: New player, just registered

[ATMunn .]

If people can't do what they want, sometimes they'll go to extremes to do
it anyway...

On Fri, Sep 22, 2017 at 7:25 PM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:

>
>
> On Sat, 23 Sep 2017, Alex Smith wrote:
> > On Fri, 2017-09-22 at 23:14 +, Jonathan Rouillard wrote:
> > > On Fri, Sep 22, 2017 at 11:35 AM Owen Jacobson 
> > > wrote:
> > > > * Find the most unlikely interpretations of the rules and call
> > > > endless
> > >
> > > CFJs to support those interpretations.
> > >
> > > Finding them is optional in certain circumstances. Sometimes they
> > > show up
> > > on their own. I submit the following into evidence:
> > >
> > > CJF: ATMunn is a player.
> > >
> > > Welcome to Agora! =)
> >
> > CFJing whether registrations worked was such a pastime at one point
> > that we had to add a rule banning it unless there was actual
> > uncertainty.
> >
> > We subsequently discovered that Agorans can manufacture uncertainty out
> > of almost anything.
>
> It particular, whenever we ban CFJing something unless there's uncertainty,
> we get CFJs on the uncertainty of whether there's uncertainty.
>
>
>
>
>

Re: DIS: New player, just registered

[Kerim Aydin]

On Sat, 23 Sep 2017, Alex Smith wrote:
> On Fri, 2017-09-22 at 23:14 +, Jonathan Rouillard wrote:
> > On Fri, Sep 22, 2017 at 11:35 AM Owen Jacobson 
> > wrote:
> > > * Find the most unlikely interpretations of the rules and call
> > > endless
> > 
> > CFJs to support those interpretations.
> > 
> > Finding them is optional in certain circumstances. Sometimes they
> > show up
> > on their own. I submit the following into evidence:
> > 
> > CJF: ATMunn is a player.
> > 
> > Welcome to Agora! =)
> 
> CFJing whether registrations worked was such a pastime at one point
> that we had to add a rule banning it unless there was actual
> uncertainty.
> 
> We subsequently discovered that Agorans can manufacture uncertainty out
> of almost anything.

It particular, whenever we ban CFJing something unless there's uncertainty,
we get CFJs on the uncertainty of whether there's uncertainty.

Re: DIS: New player, just registered

[Alex Smith]

On Fri, 2017-09-22 at 23:14 +, Jonathan Rouillard wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 22, 2017 at 11:35 AM Owen Jacobson 
> wrote:
> > * Find the most unlikely interpretations of the rules and call
> > endless
> 
> CFJs to support those interpretations.
> 
> Finding them is optional in certain circumstances. Sometimes they
> show up
> on their own. I submit the following into evidence:
> 
> CJF: ATMunn is a player.
> 
> Welcome to Agora! =)

CFJing whether registrations worked was such a pastime at one point
that we had to add a rule banning it unless there was actual
uncertainty.

We subsequently discovered that Agorans can manufacture uncertainty out
of almost anything.

-- 
ais523

Re: DIS: New player, just registered

[Jonathan Rouillard]

On Fri, Sep 22, 2017 at 11:35 AM Owen Jacobson  wrote:
> * Find the most unlikely interpretations of the rules and call endless
CFJs to support those interpretations.

Finding them is optional in certain circumstances. Sometimes they show up
on their own. I submit the following into evidence:

CJF: ATMunn is a player.

Welcome to Agora! =)

~ Roujo

Re: DIS: New player, just registered

[Kerim Aydin]

Agora tends to go through periods of building game systems (lots of
proposal drafting) then periods of playing what we set up (lots of
basic transaction messages, trades, gameplay).  We're very much in the 
first mode right now - hopefully not for much longer we've been there
since around May - so if there doesn't seem anything obvious to *do*
other than writing proposals, that's a situational thing.

On Fri, 22 Sep 2017, ATMunn . wrote:
> Thanks for the welcome package, whether it actually worked or not.
> 
> I still have no real idea what I'm going to do; so for now I'll just watch 
> and see what comes up. I'm sure I'll find something to do
> sooner or later.
> 
> On Fri, Sep 22, 2017 at 11:35 AM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:
>   On Sep 21, 2017, at 9:35 AM, ATMunn .  wrote:
> 
>   > Hey! I'm ATMunn.
>   > I discovered Agora a little while back, and just decided it sounded 
> interesting, so I joined.
>   >
>   > I've seen some of the messages that have been so far, and honestly I 
> have no idea what's going on, or what to do. :P
>   > But it seems like there's a really friendly community here, so I'm 
> sure you all can help me learn the ropes.
>   >
>   > I've also joined the IRC channel. I'm usually quite active on IRC, so 
> you can pretty much always contact me there (I may
>   not respond right away though if I'm busy).
> 
> Welcome!
> 
> 10 Fun Things To Do In Agora When You’re Dead:
> 
> * Scam a dictatorship and single-handedly cause a month-long lull in the game.
> 
> * Sit on an eighth of the economic resources and do nothing obvious with 
> them. (Cough.)
> 
> * Write a proposal that is impossible to vote against.
> 
> * Vote against it anyways.
> 
> * Demonstrate that an innocent-looking mechanic is far more powerful and 
> useful than anyone intended.
> 
> * Design a subgame. Try to get it enacted into the rules.
> 
> * Run for an office.
> 
> * Run from an office.
> 
> * Find the most unlikely interpretations of the rules and call endless CFJs 
> to support those interpretations.
> 
> * Win.
> 
> I’ve kicked over a welcome package (Rule 2499) for you. This should give you 
> enough shinies to put forward several proposals and
> calls for judgement, if it catches your fancy to do so.
> 
> Note that by a strict reading of the rules, that action did not work - this 
> is a known issue and proposals are in flight to fix
> that problem. We have an established agreement to keep records as if that the 
> actions work anyways, and I plan to ratify the
> results retroactively once the rules are fixed. Reading up on the history of 
> this problem might be interesting if you have
> interest in how the rules function.
> 
> -o
> 
> 
> 
>

Re: DIS: New player, just registered

[Josh T]

I think that is a wise plan. I feel like I didn't do very much aside from
watch for the first six months I was playing (my organization
notwithstanding).

天火狐

On 22 September 2017 at 13:25, ATMunn .  wrote:

> Thanks for the welcome package, whether it actually worked or not.
>
> I still have no real idea what I'm going to do; so for now I'll just watch
> and see what comes up. I'm sure I'll find something to do sooner or later.
>
> On Fri, Sep 22, 2017 at 11:35 AM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:
>
>> On Sep 21, 2017, at 9:35 AM, ATMunn .  wrote:
>>
>> > Hey! I'm ATMunn.
>> > I discovered Agora a little while back, and just decided it sounded
>> interesting, so I joined.
>> >
>> > I've seen some of the messages that have been so far, and honestly I
>> have no idea what's going on, or what to do. :P
>> > But it seems like there's a really friendly community here, so I'm sure
>> you all can help me learn the ropes.
>> >
>> > I've also joined the IRC channel. I'm usually quite active on IRC, so
>> you can pretty much always contact me there (I may not respond right away
>> though if I'm busy).
>>
>> Welcome!
>>
>> 10 Fun Things To Do In Agora When You’re Dead:
>>
>> * Scam a dictatorship and single-handedly cause a month-long lull in the
>> game.
>>
>> * Sit on an eighth of the economic resources and do nothing obvious with
>> them. (Cough.)
>>
>> * Write a proposal that is impossible to vote against.
>>
>> * Vote against it anyways.
>>
>> * Demonstrate that an innocent-looking mechanic is far more powerful and
>> useful than anyone intended.
>>
>> * Design a subgame. Try to get it enacted into the rules.
>>
>> * Run for an office.
>>
>> * Run from an office.
>>
>> * Find the most unlikely interpretations of the rules and call endless
>> CFJs to support those interpretations.
>>
>> * Win.
>>
>> I’ve kicked over a welcome package (Rule 2499) for you. This should give
>> you enough shinies to put forward several proposals and calls for
>> judgement, if it catches your fancy to do so.
>>
>> Note that by a strict reading of the rules, that action did not work -
>> this is a known issue and proposals are in flight to fix that problem. We
>> have an established agreement to keep records as if that the actions work
>> anyways, and I plan to ratify the results retroactively once the rules are
>> fixed. Reading up on the history of this problem might be interesting if
>> you have interest in how the rules function.
>>
>> -o
>>
>>
>

Re: DIS: New player, just registered

[ATMunn .]

Thanks for the welcome package, whether it actually worked or not.

I still have no real idea what I'm going to do; so for now I'll just watch
and see what comes up. I'm sure I'll find something to do sooner or later.

On Fri, Sep 22, 2017 at 11:35 AM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:

> On Sep 21, 2017, at 9:35 AM, ATMunn .  wrote:
>
> > Hey! I'm ATMunn.
> > I discovered Agora a little while back, and just decided it sounded
> interesting, so I joined.
> >
> > I've seen some of the messages that have been so far, and honestly I
> have no idea what's going on, or what to do. :P
> > But it seems like there's a really friendly community here, so I'm sure
> you all can help me learn the ropes.
> >
> > I've also joined the IRC channel. I'm usually quite active on IRC, so
> you can pretty much always contact me there (I may not respond right away
> though if I'm busy).
>
> Welcome!
>
> 10 Fun Things To Do In Agora When You’re Dead:
>
> * Scam a dictatorship and single-handedly cause a month-long lull in the
> game.
>
> * Sit on an eighth of the economic resources and do nothing obvious with
> them. (Cough.)
>
> * Write a proposal that is impossible to vote against.
>
> * Vote against it anyways.
>
> * Demonstrate that an innocent-looking mechanic is far more powerful and
> useful than anyone intended.
>
> * Design a subgame. Try to get it enacted into the rules.
>
> * Run for an office.
>
> * Run from an office.
>
> * Find the most unlikely interpretations of the rules and call endless
> CFJs to support those interpretations.
>
> * Win.
>
> I’ve kicked over a welcome package (Rule 2499) for you. This should give
> you enough shinies to put forward several proposals and calls for
> judgement, if it catches your fancy to do so.
>
> Note that by a strict reading of the rules, that action did not work -
> this is a known issue and proposals are in flight to fix that problem. We
> have an established agreement to keep records as if that the actions work
> anyways, and I plan to ratify the results retroactively once the rules are
> fixed. Reading up on the history of this problem might be interesting if
> you have interest in how the rules function.
>
> -o
>
>

Re: DIS: Test

[Owen Jacobson]

> On Sep 22, 2017, at 4:34 AM, Alex Smith  wrote:
> 
> Possibly the first time one of these /isn't/ a timing scam?
> 
> It's possible my email problems have been resolved, at least with
> respect to sending. If this message gets through, presumably others
> will too.

I did not receive this.

(I kid. It came through fine.)

-o



signature.asc
Description: Message signed with OpenPGP

Re: DIS: New player, just registered

[Owen Jacobson]

On Sep 21, 2017, at 9:35 AM, ATMunn .  wrote:

> Hey! I'm ATMunn.
> I discovered Agora a little while back, and just decided it sounded 
> interesting, so I joined.
> 
> I've seen some of the messages that have been so far, and honestly I have no 
> idea what's going on, or what to do. :P
> But it seems like there's a really friendly community here, so I'm sure you 
> all can help me learn the ropes.
> 
> I've also joined the IRC channel. I'm usually quite active on IRC, so you can 
> pretty much always contact me there (I may not respond right away though if 
> I'm busy).

Welcome!

10 Fun Things To Do In Agora When You’re Dead:

* Scam a dictatorship and single-handedly cause a month-long lull in the game.

* Sit on an eighth of the economic resources and do nothing obvious with them. 
(Cough.)

* Write a proposal that is impossible to vote against.

* Vote against it anyways.

* Demonstrate that an innocent-looking mechanic is far more powerful and useful 
than anyone intended.

* Design a subgame. Try to get it enacted into the rules.

* Run for an office.

* Run from an office.

* Find the most unlikely interpretations of the rules and call endless CFJs to 
support those interpretations.

* Win.

I’ve kicked over a welcome package (Rule 2499) for you. This should give you 
enough shinies to put forward several proposals and calls for judgement, if it 
catches your fancy to do so.

Note that by a strict reading of the rules, that action did not work - this is 
a known issue and proposals are in flight to fix that problem. We have an 
established agreement to keep records as if that the actions work anyways, and 
I plan to ratify the results retroactively once the rules are fixed. Reading up 
on the history of this problem might be interesting if you have interest in how 
the rules function.

-o



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Description: Message signed with OpenPGP

DIS: Re: BUS: Registering

[Kerim Aydin]

given that it's so far mostly been the new player award that trips the big
drop in Agora balance, automatic right-sizing of the economy to the number
of players seems important an stability fix (maybe something to couple with
any final minimum wage proposal).

On Fri, 22 Sep 2017, Owen Jacobson wrote:
> On Sep 21, 2017, at 9:29 AM, ATMunn .  wrote:
> 
> > I register as a new player.
> 
> I cause ATMunn to receive a welcome package of 50 shinies.
> 
> Next week’s pending price is almost certainly going to be 1 sh. again, so get 
> your ideas ready.
> 
> -o
> 
>

DIS: Re: BUS: Registering

[Cuddle Beam]

rip Promo/Assessor

On Fri, Sep 22, 2017 at 4:01 PM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:

> On Sep 21, 2017, at 9:29 AM, ATMunn .  wrote:
>
> > I register as a new player.
>
> I cause ATMunn to receive a welcome package of 50 shinies.
>
> Next week’s pending price is almost certainly going to be 1 sh. again, so
> get your ideas ready.
>
> -o
>
>

DIS: Re: OFF: [ADoP] Resolving Election: o. is the agronomist!

[Owen Jacobson]

> On Sep 20, 2017, at 9:03 PM, VJ Rada  wrote:
> 
> I resolve the Agoran decision for the determination of the Agronomist.
> Again, the quorum was 2.0 and the valid options were the players.

I look forward to serving.

A brief reminder: the Agronomy rules are nonfunctional right now, due to 
CAN/MAY confusion. There is a proposal in flight to address the problem. Please 
do not attempt any Agronomy actions, such as creating or selling Comestibles, 
until this is addressed: it won’t work.

-o



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Description: Message signed with OpenPGP

Re: DIS: Test

[VJ Rada]

me too.

On Fri, Sep 22, 2017 at 7:43 PM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
 wrote:
> I received this.
> 
> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
>
>
>
>> On Sep 22, 2017, at 4:34 AM, Alex Smith  wrote:
>>
>> Possibly the first time one of these /isn't/ a timing scam?
>>
>> It's possible my email problems have been resolved, at least with
>> respect to sending. If this message gets through, presumably others
>> will too.
>>
>> --
>> ais523
>



-- 
>From V.J. Rada

Re: DIS: Test

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus]

I received this.

Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com



> On Sep 22, 2017, at 4:34 AM, Alex Smith  wrote:
> 
> Possibly the first time one of these /isn't/ a timing scam?
> 
> It's possible my email problems have been resolved, at least with
> respect to sending. If this message gets through, presumably others
> will too.
> 
> --
> ais523



signature.asc
Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail

DIS: Test

[Alex Smith]

Possibly the first time one of these /isn't/ a timing scam?

It's possible my email problems have been resolved, at least with
respect to sending. If this message gets through, presumably others
will too.

-- 
ais523