Re: [Aus-soaring] Bathurst 1000k

[Matthew Scutter]

It was indeed a bit out of the ordinary, I wanted to do a big out and
return, then jump on the sea breeze convergence coming from Sydney as the
thermals died and do some big distance down past Canberra and back. It'd
already started falling apart around Bathurst but I found a bit of a storm
outflow convergence that got me over to the sea breeze convergence, which
was unfortunately much weaker than I was expecting. I believe it was
actually as strong as it looked, just not at the altitude I was comfortable
running it over the Blue Mountains. I turned back short of Goulburn for
1000k instead as the convergence was blueing out.

Bathurst is an odd site. 9 days out of 10 we're the last to start in NSW by
an hour, but every so often we seem to get away a good two hours before the
plains.

I think that makes three 1000's, two in standard and one in 18m.
1037k, by me, http://www.onlinecontest.org/olc-2.0/gliding/flightinfo.
html?flightId=1813867559
1031k, by Ian De Ferranti, http://www.onlinecontest.org/
olc-2.0/gliding/flightinfo.html?flightId=-934063183

There's some photos of the seabreeze convergence on my FB:
https://www.facebook.com/MatthewScuttersGliding/posts/1285626598195585
As well as a debrief and a clip of a landspout(?) on my page too.

On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 3:57 PM, Mark Newton  wrote:

> On Feb 2, 2017, at 2:12 PM, Jim Staniforth 
> wrote:
>
>
> Nice one Matthew.
> Seems a bit out of the ordinary... How many thousands have been done out
> of Bathurst?
>
>
> At least one! :-)
>
>   - mark
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Bathurst 1000k

[Matt Gage]

3 that I know of

Matt

> On 2 Feb. 2017, at 15:57, Mark Newton  wrote:
> 
>> On Feb 2, 2017, at 2:12 PM, Jim Staniforth  wrote:
>> 
>> Nice one Matthew.
>> Seems a bit out of the ordinary... How many thousands have been done out of 
>> Bathurst?
> 
> At least one! :-)
> 
>   - mark
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Bathurst 1000k

[Mark Newton]

On Feb 2, 2017, at 2:12 PM, Jim Staniforth  wrote:
> 
> Nice one Matthew.
> Seems a bit out of the ordinary... How many thousands have been done out of 
> Bathurst?

At least one! :-)

  - mark



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[Aus-soaring] Bathurst 1000k

[Jim Staniforth]

Nice one Matthew.
Seems a bit out of the ordinary... How many thousands have been done out 
of Bathurst?

http://www.onlinecontest.org/olc-2.0/gliding/flightinfo.html?dsId=5517024
Light-heartedly,
Jim
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Re: [Aus-soaring] more light hearted WAS: MEMBERSHIP AND A WORLD REVIEW

[Erich Wittstock]

yep - it glides very nicely :-)

On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 1:46 PM, Richard Frawley  wrote:

> was it slippery in the air?
>
> On 2 Feb 2017, at 1:06 PM, Mark Fisher  wrote:
>
> I once owned a glider called a Marianne
> Rego  was KYJ
>
> Caused some raised eyebrows at times.
>
> Mark
>
> On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 12:00 PM,  wrote:
>
>>
>> I did a fair bit of flying in IKR Its an Astir CS77
>>
>> :-)
>>
>>
>> - Original Message -
>> From:
>> "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." <
>> aus-soaring@lists.base64.com.au>
>>
>>- What does *ikr* mean? *I know, right.*
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Mark Fisher
> Managing Director
> Swift Performance Equipment
> Unit 2, 1472 Boundary Rd
> Wacol 4076
> Australia
> Ph:   +61 7 3879 3005 <(07)%203879%203005>
> Fax: +61 7 36076277
> www.spe.com.au
>
>
>
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Re: [Aus-soaring] MEMBERSHIP AND A WORLD REVIEW

[Richard Frawley]

peter

I am sure you remember we spoke about creating a centralised marketing budget 
when we were on the exec together.

the challenge is that for mass marketing $500k is insufficient. done properly 
around $2m would be needed to span over a 3 year period.

As a collective, its possible to raise the amount. The challenge however is to 
do primarily with the make up of our community, it being heavily weighted to 
technical and engineering orientations, which in themselves are characterised 
by risk averse natures.

Marketing from the outside appears as very much as an inexact science, but 
watching Gruen (all variants) can however, lead one to the conclusion that this 
is not so much the case after all, but getting a conservative group such as 
gliding is to commit to a $2m spend would simply never happen in my view, 
unless a rich benefactor falls our way.







> On 2 Feb 2017, at 12:11 PM, Peter Carey  wrote:
> 
> This has been a very deep and meaningful discussion and, to me, it was 
> enlightening and educational. Most of the contributions were well thought out 
> and clearly expressed.
> My only problem is that the conversation was confined to defining the problem 
> and, what we should be concentrating is a solution.
> We have done the talk, now, let's try to do the walk.
> I am new to the game (been gliding for 40 years) and a bloody foreigner 
> (living here for 60 years) so, you have to forgive me if I am on the wrong 
> path.
> We won't be able to solve the membership decline issue with volunteer, 
> amateur way so, we need to look for an alternative and here is one of many.
> 
> For years the GFA has been sitting on well over a million dollars. I suggest 
> that we spend half of it on professional planning and marketing.
> We would get an organization to
> 1. Draw up a business plan for the GFA and for the Clubs (one each for large, 
> medium and small Clubs)
> 2. Draw up a plan and budget for effective publicity and social media 
> campaign.
> 3. Oversee the implementation of the above. 
> 4. The implementation should be carried out by the staff employed by the GFA.
> 
> This is my crude attempt to invite praise, abuse and expansion to the above.
> 
> “Beside the noble art of getting things done, there is the noble art of 
> leaving things undone.” 
> ― lin yu tang
> 
> Peter Carey
> 
> 
>> On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 10:12 AM, Erich Wittstock  wrote:
>> ..ahh..the sweet sound of jealousy! ;-)
>> 
>>> On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 10:10 AM, Mark Newton  wrote:
>>> On 2 Feb 2017, at 9:24 AM, steph...@internode.on.net wrote:
>>> 
>>> > If we assume it is only age related, the register shows that the cut off 
>>> > year for the 600 oldest gliders is 1978. So all that "old low performance 
>>> > stuff" would include all the LS1s, Cirrus, Libelles, Mosquitos, Astir 
>>> > CS/CS77s and Hornets and some of the Jantars, PIK20s, ASW20s and LS3s.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> The ASH-25 first flew in 1987. That makes it a 30 year old aircraft.
>>> 
>>> Won’t be too long before it’s classified as a vintage sailplane :-)
>>> 
>>>- mark
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> Aus-soaring mailing list
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>>> http://lists.base64.com.au/listinfo/aus-soaring
>> 
>> 
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> 
> 
> -- 
> PETER CAREY
> Executive Member
> The Victorian Vernier Society
> The  Society for People with a Passion for Manufacturing
> 'sharing experience - building a better future'
> www.vernier.org.au
> 0412464340
>  
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Re: [Aus-soaring] MEMBERSHIP AND A WORLD REVIEW

[Peter Carey]

This has been a very deep and meaningful discussion and, to me, it was
enlightening and educational. Most of the contributions were well thought
out and clearly expressed.
My only problem is that the conversation was confined to defining the
problem and, what we should be concentrating is a solution.
We have done the talk, now, let's try to do the walk.
I am new to the game (been gliding for 40 years) and a bloody foreigner
(living here for 60 years) so, you have to forgive me if I am on the wrong
path.
We won't be able to solve the membership decline issue with volunteer,
amateur way so, we need to look for an alternative and here is one of many.

For years the GFA has been sitting on well over a million dollars. I
suggest that we spend half of it on professional planning and marketing.
We would get an organization to
1. Draw up a business plan for the GFA and for the Clubs (one each for
large, medium and small Clubs)
2. Draw up a plan and budget for effective publicity and social media
campaign.
3. Oversee the implementation of the above.
4. The implementation should be carried out by the staff employed by the
GFA.

This is my crude attempt to invite praise, abuse and expansion to the above.

“Beside the noble art of getting things done, there is the noble art of
leaving things undone.”
― lin yu tang 

Peter Carey


On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 10:12 AM, Erich Wittstock  wrote:

> ..ahh..the sweet sound of jealousy! ;-)
>
> On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 10:10 AM, Mark Newton 
> wrote:
>
>> On 2 Feb 2017, at 9:24 AM, steph...@internode.on.net wrote:
>>
>> > If we assume it is only age related, the register shows that the cut
>> off year for the 600 oldest gliders is 1978. So all that "old low
>> performance stuff" would include all the LS1s, Cirrus, Libelles, Mosquitos,
>> Astir CS/CS77s and Hornets and some of the Jantars, PIK20s, ASW20s and LS3s.
>>
>>
>>
>> The ASH-25 first flew in 1987. That makes it a 30 year old aircraft.
>>
>> Won’t be too long before it’s classified as a vintage sailplane :-)
>>
>>- mark
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Aus-soaring mailing list
>> Aus-soaring@lists.base64.com.au
>> http://lists.base64.com.au/listinfo/aus-soaring
>>
>
>
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>


-- 
*PETER CAREY*
Executive Member
The Victorian Vernier Society
The  Society for People with a Passion for Manufacturing

*'sharing experience - building a better future'*www.vernier.org.au
0412464340
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[Aus-soaring] definitions

[emillis prelgauskas]

It is great to see conversation in full flow.
One issue confounding understanding in the conversation might be the quite 
different definitions being placed on elements of gliding, with different 
contributors coming at things from differing points of view.
It is possibly a difficult ask, but it might be worth trying to get some common 
ground on what we mean by particularly topical words.

Such as:
‘vintage' gliders
The strict formal definition has been codified by Aust Gliding Museum and 
Vintage Gliders Australia to encompass the wood range of airframes.
That definition is being tested by the early Phoenix brought into Australia.

An earlier hope was that alloy and early production FRP airframes would end up 
with monikers of their own; and hopefully enthusiasts and advocates for each.
‘classic’ 
‘heritage'
‘venerable’
‘mature’
‘prototypical’
are the kinds of words used in other fields of activity.

The broader definition void is:
what is ‘gliding’
- current generation sailplanes
- pure, sustainer, motor gliders
- the coming generation of electric, FES, etc.
- launch by foot, winch, plane, self
- hire
- individual operation vs structured club operation
- traditional volunteer group based operation vs electronically enhanced pilot 
operation vs commercial operation

If, as I interpret, we mean all these things, then common ground (and then a 
way forward) will be hard to find.

Emilis


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Re: [Aus-soaring] MEMBERSHIP AND A WORLD REVIEW

[Justin Sinclair]

What's shorthand ?



Justin Sinclair
17 Queen st
Scarborough
Qld 4020

Mob 0421061811
Hm 07 3885 8949

Sent from iPhone



On 2 Feb 2017, at 10:07, Mike Borgelt 
> wrote:

Oh fer chrissakes !

BTW is web shorthand for "by the way"

The Kookaburra IIRC ( if I remember correctly ) was VH-GHS blown over and then 
de rigged and stored in the open a year or more ago when I saw it. This would 
have been in the 1980s and the reason I was interested is that I was getting a 
new glider and GFA couldn't be bothered getting any decent non awkward regos 
from CASA. Another fine example of GFA "service".
The next glider I put on the register, I went to the CASA register people who 
very helpfully faxed me all the available ones and told me to choose one I 
liked and they would assign it to the GFA which I did and they did.

Mike



On 2 Feb 2017, at 7:46 AM, Peter Brookman 
> wrote:

BTW
Manufacturer:
PIPER AIRCRAFT CORP
Model:
PA-34-200
Serial number:
34-7450107
Engine type:
Piston
No of engines:
2
Aircraft first registered in Australia:
3 June 1974
Year of manufacture:
1974
Registration holder:
TISDALL BTW PTY LTD U 2 224 Qantas Ave ARCHERFIELD QLD 4108 Australia
Registration holder commencement date:
9 May 2016
Registered operator:
FLIGHT ONE (SERVICES) PTY LTD 224 Qantas Ave ARCHERFIELD QLD 4108 Australia
Registered operator commencement date:
9 May 2016

From: Mike Borgelt
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 11:39 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] MEMBERSHIP AND A WORLD REVIEW

That was an hour or two after finding one that had been blown over out the back 
of a hangar a couple of years before. It was still on the register. A 
Kookaburra BTW.

Mike

On 1 Feb 2017, at 9:07 PM, Mike Borgelt  wrote:

I've pushed a hangar door open and had pieces of a glider still on the register 
fall out of the rafters

Mike

On 1 Feb 2017, at 9:02 PM, Mark Newton  wrote:

Registration doesn’t expire, so an aircraft stays on the register even if it’s 
wrecked in a blown-over trailer in a corner of a gliding field that its 
deceased owner hasn’t visited for ten years.

The real point of interest is the number of form-2 kits the GFA sells each year.

Mandy Temple’s “Mande-news” on June 10 last year included an extract from the 
GFA’s Salesforce database, which said there were 738 gliders with a current 
form-2 as of that date.

So - slightly over half of the total number of registered gliders are airworthy.

The same extract said 2584 members flew GFA aircraft for 115,100 hours from 
68,200 launches in 2015-16 (based on form-2 returns).  That means every 
airworthy GFA aircraft averaged 156 hours and 92 launches, making the average 
GFA aircraft flight 102 minutes long.

Not sure what to make of that. Must be some absolute bladder-buster long 
endurance flights to compensate for the thousands of 6 minute circuits all the 
winch clubs spend most of the winter flying.

Also means the average GFA member logs about 45 hours per year. Once again, 
some pilots must be absolutely cranking out the hours to make up for the 
trainees who only log between 5 and 20 hours per year.

The other weird numbers worth noting: GFA had issued 932 GPCs, and had 189 
AEIs, 97 Level 1 instructors, 306 Level 2 instructors, and 97 Level 3 
instructors. That’s 689 members with instructor ratings (out of 2584 total — 
over a quarter of GFA’s membership base), and each Level 3 having their very 
own personal Level 1 to train.

Let me put it another way: There’s an instructor for every three non-instructor 
GFA members.

The ratio is even stranger if you compare instructor headcount to GPC holders, 
and observe that 689 of those 932 GPCs are actually supposed to be instructors.

I reckon GFA members get instructor ratings instead of Level-2 Independent Ops. 
 If you want to fly club aircraft whenever you want without needing anyone’s 
permission, nearly 700 members have worked out that it’s easier to get an 
instructor rating than a Level 2 Independent Operator rating. Also easier to 
get a crew organized if you’re an instructor and you offer to run a day.

That’s a perverse outcome, isn't it?  I mean, in an ideal world, it wouldn’t be 
that way?

  - mark



On 1 Feb 2017, at 6:04 PM, steph...@internode.on.net wrote:






>From the aircraft register of  2013

1220 gliders and motor gliders

950 privately owned

270 owned by clubs/cadets/societies etc.



last year

1276 gliders and motor gliders (+4.6%, 56 actual)

981 privately owned (+3.3%, 31 actual)

295 owned by clubs/cadets/societies etc. (+9.3%, 25 actual)



Only about 3 years difference, I'd be reluctant to say too much about trends, 
have to go back and dig up a really old one. But private ownership (in absolute 
terms) increasing more than club ownership (and as others will 

Re: [Aus-soaring] MEMBERSHIP AND A WORLD REVIEW

[Mike Borgelt]

Oh fer chrissakes !

BTW is web shorthand for "by the way"

The Kookaburra IIRC ( if I remember correctly ) was VH-GHS blown over and then 
de rigged and stored in the open a year or more ago when I saw it. This would 
have been in the 1980s and the reason I was interested is that I was getting a 
new glider and GFA couldn't be bothered getting any decent non awkward regos 
from CASA. Another fine example of GFA "service".
The next glider I put on the register, I went to the CASA register people who 
very helpfully faxed me all the available ones and told me to choose one I 
liked and they would assign it to the GFA which I did and they did.

Mike



> On 2 Feb 2017, at 7:46 AM, Peter Brookman  wrote:
> 
> BTW
> 
> Manufacturer:
> PIPER AIRCRAFT CORP
> Model:
> PA-34-200
> Serial number:
> 34-7450107
> Engine type:
> Piston
> No of engines:
> 2
> Aircraft first registered in Australia:
> 3 June 1974
> Year of manufacture:
> 1974
> Registration holder:
> TISDALL BTW PTY LTD U 2 224 Qantas Ave ARCHERFIELD QLD 4108 Australia
> Registration holder commencement date:
> 9 May 2016
> Registered operator:
> FLIGHT ONE (SERVICES) PTY LTD 224 Qantas Ave ARCHERFIELD QLD 4108 Australia
> Registered operator commencement date:
> 9 May 2016
>  
> From: Mike Borgelt
> Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 11:39 PM
> To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] MEMBERSHIP AND A WORLD REVIEW
>  
> That was an hour or two after finding one that had been blown over out the 
> back of a hangar a couple of years before. It was still on the register. A 
> Kookaburra BTW.
>  
> Mike
> 
>> On 1 Feb 2017, at 9:07 PM, Mike Borgelt  wrote:
>> 
>> I've pushed a hangar door open and had pieces of a glider still on the 
>> register fall out of the rafters
>>  
>> Mike
>> 
>>> On 1 Feb 2017, at 9:02 PM, Mark Newton  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Registration doesn’t expire, so an aircraft stays on the register even if 
>>> it’s wrecked in a blown-over trailer in a corner of a gliding field that 
>>> its deceased owner hasn’t visited for ten years.
>>>  
>>> The real point of interest is the number of form-2 kits the GFA sells each 
>>> year.
>>>  
>>> Mandy Temple’s “Mande-news” on June 10 last year included an extract from 
>>> the GFA’s Salesforce database, which said there were 738 gliders with a 
>>> current form-2 as of that date.
>>>  
>>> So - slightly over half of the total number of registered gliders are 
>>> airworthy.
>>>  
>>> The same extract said 2584 members flew GFA aircraft for 115,100 hours from 
>>> 68,200 launches in 2015-16 (based on form-2 returns).  That means every 
>>> airworthy GFA aircraft averaged 156 hours and 92 launches, making the 
>>> average GFA aircraft flight 102 minutes long.
>>>  
>>> Not sure what to make of that. Must be some absolute bladder-buster long 
>>> endurance flights to compensate for the thousands of 6 minute circuits all 
>>> the winch clubs spend most of the winter flying.
>>>  
>>> Also means the average GFA member logs about 45 hours per year. Once again, 
>>> some pilots must be absolutely cranking out the hours to make up for the 
>>> trainees who only log between 5 and 20 hours per year.
>>>  
>>> The other weird numbers worth noting: GFA had issued 932 GPCs, and had 189 
>>> AEIs, 97 Level 1 instructors, 306 Level 2 instructors, and 97 Level 3 
>>> instructors. That’s 689 members with instructor ratings (out of 2584 total 
>>> — over a quarter of GFA’s membership base), and each Level 3 having their 
>>> very own personal Level 1 to train.
>>>  
>>> Let me put it another way: There’s an instructor for every three 
>>> non-instructor GFA members.
>>>  
>>> The ratio is even stranger if you compare instructor headcount to GPC 
>>> holders, and observe that 689 of those 932 GPCs are actually supposed to be 
>>> instructors.
>>>  
>>> I reckon GFA members get instructor ratings instead of Level-2 Independent 
>>> Ops.  If you want to fly club aircraft whenever you want without needing 
>>> anyone’s permission, nearly 700 members have worked out that it’s easier to 
>>> get an instructor rating than a Level 2 Independent Operator rating. Also 
>>> easier to get a crew organized if you’re an instructor and you offer to run 
>>> a day.
>>>  
>>> That’s a perverse outcome, isn't it?  I mean, in an ideal world, it 
>>> wouldn’t be that way?
>>>  
>>>   - mark
>>>  
>>>  
>>>  
 On 1 Feb 2017, at 6:04 PM, steph...@internode.on.net wrote:
  
  
 
  
 
 From the aircraft register of  2013
 
 1220 gliders and motor gliders
 
 950 privately owned
 
 270 owned by clubs/cadets/societies etc.
 
  
 
 last year
 
 1276 gliders and motor gliders (+4.6%, 56 actual)
 
 981 privately owned (+3.3%, 31 actual)
 
 295 owned by clubs/cadets/societies etc. (+9.3%, 25 actual)
 
  
 
 Only about 3 

Re: [Aus-soaring] MEMBERSHIP AND A WORLD REVIEW

[Rob Wintulich]

BTW  --By The Way

Not VH registration!

From: Peter Brookman 
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 10:16 AM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. 
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] MEMBERSHIP AND A WORLD REVIEW

BTW
Manufacturer: 
PIPER AIRCRAFT CORP
Model: 
PA-34-200
Serial number: 
34-7450107
Engine type: 
Piston
No of engines: 
2
Aircraft first registered in Australia: 
3 June 1974
Year of manufacture: 
1974
Registration holder: 
TISDALL BTW PTY LTD U 2 224 Qantas Ave ARCHERFIELD QLD 4108 Australia
Registration holder commencement date: 
9 May 2016
Registered operator: 
FLIGHT ONE (SERVICES) PTY LTD 224 Qantas Ave ARCHERFIELD QLD 4108 Australia
Registered operator commencement date: 
9 May 2016

From: Mike Borgelt 
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 11:39 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. 
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] MEMBERSHIP AND A WORLD REVIEW

That was an hour or two after finding one that had been blown over out the back 
of a hangar a couple of years before. It was still on the register. A 
Kookaburra BTW.

Mike

On 1 Feb 2017, at 9:07 PM, Mike Borgelt  wrote:


  I've pushed a hangar door open and had pieces of a glider still on the 
register fall out of the rafters

  Mike

  On 1 Feb 2017, at 9:02 PM, Mark Newton  wrote:


Registration doesn’t expire, so an aircraft stays on the register even if 
it’s wrecked in a blown-over trailer in a corner of a gliding field that its 
deceased owner hasn’t visited for ten years. 

The real point of interest is the number of form-2 kits the GFA sells each 
year. 

Mandy Temple’s “Mande-news” on June 10 last year included an extract from 
the GFA’s Salesforce database, which said there were 738 gliders with a current 
form-2 as of that date.

So - slightly over half of the total number of registered gliders are 
airworthy.

The same extract said 2584 members flew GFA aircraft for 115,100 hours from 
68,200 launches in 2015-16 (based on form-2 returns).  That means every 
airworthy GFA aircraft averaged 156 hours and 92 launches, making the average 
GFA aircraft flight 102 minutes long.

Not sure what to make of that. Must be some absolute bladder-buster long 
endurance flights to compensate for the thousands of 6 minute circuits all the 
winch clubs spend most of the winter flying.

Also means the average GFA member logs about 45 hours per year. Once again, 
some pilots must be absolutely cranking out the hours to make up for the 
trainees who only log between 5 and 20 hours per year.

The other weird numbers worth noting: GFA had issued 932 GPCs, and had 189 
AEIs, 97 Level 1 instructors, 306 Level 2 instructors, and 97 Level 3 
instructors. That’s 689 members with instructor ratings (out of 2584 total — 
over a quarter of GFA’s membership base), and each Level 3 having their very 
own personal Level 1 to train. 

Let me put it another way: There’s an instructor for every three 
non-instructor GFA members.

The ratio is even stranger if you compare instructor headcount to GPC 
holders, and observe that 689 of those 932 GPCs are actually supposed to be 
instructors.

I reckon GFA members get instructor ratings instead of Level-2 Independent 
Ops.  If you want to fly club aircraft whenever you want without needing 
anyone’s permission, nearly 700 members have worked out that it’s easier to get 
an instructor rating than a Level 2 Independent Operator rating. Also easier to 
get a crew organized if you’re an instructor and you offer to run a day.

That’s a perverse outcome, isn't it?  I mean, in an ideal world, it 
wouldn’t be that way?

  - mark



  On 1 Feb 2017, at 6:04 PM, steph...@internode.on.net wrote:





  From the aircraft register of  2013

  1220 gliders and motor gliders

  950 privately owned

  270 owned by clubs/cadets/societies etc.



  last year

  1276 gliders and motor gliders (+4.6%, 56 actual)

  981 privately owned (+3.3%, 31 actual)

  295 owned by clubs/cadets/societies etc. (+9.3%, 25 actual)



  Only about 3 years difference, I'd be reluctant to say too much about 
trends, have to go back and dig up a really old one. But private ownership (in 
absolute terms) increasing more than club ownership (and as others will point 
out, only about half of the gliders in Australia are given an annual in any one 
year, so it all may be moot anyway).

  gliders on the register newer than 3 years old in 2016 - (64 total) 

  36 private

  28 club

  Of those 64 new gliders 18 "pure" (mostly DG1000s, and 10 of them air 
cadets), 46 with some sort of motor. That's a clue to the future right there.





  For pilot flying times, much more difficult to get a handle on. 








- Original Message -
From:
"Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." 
@lists.base64.com.au>

To:
"Discussion of 

Re: [Aus-soaring] MEMBERSHIP AND A WORLD REVIEW

[Peter Brookman]

BTW
Manufacturer:
PIPER AIRCRAFT CORP
Model:
PA-34-200
Serial number:
34-7450107
Engine type:
Piston
No of engines:
2
Aircraft first registered in Australia:
3 June 1974
Year of manufacture:
1974
Registration holder:
TISDALL BTW PTY LTD U 2 224 Qantas Ave ARCHERFIELD QLD 4108 Australia
Registration holder commencement date:
9 May 2016
Registered operator:
FLIGHT ONE (SERVICES) PTY LTD 224 Qantas Ave ARCHERFIELD QLD 4108 Australia
Registered operator commencement date:
9 May 2016

From: Mike Borgelt
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 11:39 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] MEMBERSHIP AND A WORLD REVIEW

That was an hour or two after finding one that had been blown over out the back 
of a hangar a couple of years before. It was still on the register. A 
Kookaburra BTW.

Mike

On 1 Feb 2017, at 9:07 PM, Mike Borgelt  wrote:


  I've pushed a hangar door open and had pieces of a glider still on the 
register fall out of the rafters

  Mike

  On 1 Feb 2017, at 9:02 PM, Mark Newton  wrote:


Registration doesn’t expire, so an aircraft stays on the register even if 
it’s wrecked in a blown-over trailer in a corner of a gliding field that its 
deceased owner hasn’t visited for ten years.

The real point of interest is the number of form-2 kits the GFA sells each 
year.

Mandy Temple’s “Mande-news” on June 10 last year included an extract from 
the GFA’s Salesforce database, which said there were 738 gliders with a current 
form-2 as of that date.

So - slightly over half of the total number of registered gliders are 
airworthy.

The same extract said 2584 members flew GFA aircraft for 115,100 hours from 
68,200 launches in 2015-16 (based on form-2 returns).  That means every 
airworthy GFA aircraft averaged 156 hours and 92 launches, making the average 
GFA aircraft flight 102 minutes long.

Not sure what to make of that. Must be some absolute bladder-buster long 
endurance flights to compensate for the thousands of 6 minute circuits all the 
winch clubs spend most of the winter flying.

Also means the average GFA member logs about 45 hours per year. Once again, 
some pilots must be absolutely cranking out the hours to make up for the 
trainees who only log between 5 and 20 hours per year.

The other weird numbers worth noting: GFA had issued 932 GPCs, and had 189 
AEIs, 97 Level 1 instructors, 306 Level 2 instructors, and 97 Level 3 
instructors. That’s 689 members with instructor ratings (out of 2584 total — 
over a quarter of GFA’s membership base), and each Level 3 having their very 
own personal Level 1 to train.

Let me put it another way: There’s an instructor for every three 
non-instructor GFA members.

The ratio is even stranger if you compare instructor headcount to GPC 
holders, and observe that 689 of those 932 GPCs are actually supposed to be 
instructors.

I reckon GFA members get instructor ratings instead of Level-2 Independent 
Ops.  If you want to fly club aircraft whenever you want without needing 
anyone’s permission, nearly 700 members have worked out that it’s easier to get 
an instructor rating than a Level 2 Independent Operator rating. Also easier to 
get a crew organized if you’re an instructor and you offer to run a day.

That’s a perverse outcome, isn't it?  I mean, in an ideal world, it 
wouldn’t be that way?

  - mark



  On 1 Feb 2017, at 6:04 PM, steph...@internode.on.net wrote:





  From the aircraft register of  2013

  1220 gliders and motor gliders

  950 privately owned

  270 owned by clubs/cadets/societies etc.



  last year

  1276 gliders and motor gliders (+4.6%, 56 actual)

  981 privately owned (+3.3%, 31 actual)

  295 owned by clubs/cadets/societies etc. (+9.3%, 25 actual)



  Only about 3 years difference, I'd be reluctant to say too much about 
trends, have to go back and dig up a really old one. But private ownership (in 
absolute terms) increasing more than club ownership (and as others will point 
out, only about half of the gliders in Australia are given an annual in any one 
year, so it all may be moot anyway).

  gliders on the register newer than 3 years old in 2016 - (64 total)

  36 private

  28 club

  Of those 64 new gliders 18 "pure" (mostly DG1000s, and 10 of them air 
cadets), 46 with some sort of motor. That's a clue to the future right there.





  For pilot flying times, much more difficult to get a handle on.








- Original Message -
From:
"Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." 
@lists.base64.com.au>

To:
"Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia."

Cc:

Sent:
Wed, 1 Feb 2017 14:36:35 +1100

Subject:
Re: [Aus-soaring] MEMBERSHIP AND A WORLD REVIEW


to put a different spin on it, how about asking 

Re: [Aus-soaring] MEMBERSHIP AND A WORLD REVIEW

[Mark Newton]

On 2 Feb 2017, at 9:24 AM, steph...@internode.on.net wrote:

> If we assume it is only age related, the register shows that the cut off year 
> for the 600 oldest gliders is 1978. So all that "old low performance stuff" 
> would include all the LS1s, Cirrus, Libelles, Mosquitos, Astir CS/CS77s and 
> Hornets and some of the Jantars, PIK20s, ASW20s and LS3s. 



The ASH-25 first flew in 1987. That makes it a 30 year old aircraft.

Won’t be too long before it’s classified as a vintage sailplane :-)

   - mark


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Re: [Aus-soaring] MEMBERSHIP AND A WORLD REVIEW

[stephenk]

That is so James. It is why I said the register numbers are somewhat
moot. 
 I'll add, I think there are probably more private owners flying than
360, because I don't believe all club aircraft are flying either (Back
in the day when I was CFI of a small club, we had 2 two seaters which
we would alternate for various reasons).
Also for smaller/winch clubs, would be surprised if their gliders did
more than some 10s of hours a year either (our club singles used to do
30-50 and our two seaters around 70, and that was a fairly consistent
one day a week operation).

But in any case the "limbo pool" of inactive aircraft (I just had a
look this morning) is large and must contain some comparatively modern
types. That is a big problem.

SWK   

- Original Message -
From: "James McDowall" 
To:, "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." 
Cc:
Sent:Thu, 2 Feb 2017 08:41:52 +1030
Subject:Re: [Aus-soaring] MEMBERSHIP AND A WORLD REVIEW

It doesnt really matter how many gliders are on the register as the
real question is how many are active ie airworthy. This can be
extrapolated from the financial accounts and budgets which would
indicate that approximately 660 form 2's are purchased each year.
Assuming all the club gliders are airworthy that leaves just over 360
private aircraft are actually flown. Maintainers will tell you that
the majority of these fly less than 50 hours.

On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 5:34 PM,  wrote:

From the aircraft register of  2013 

1220 gliders and motor gliders 

950 privately owned 

270 owned by clubs/cadets/societies etc. 

last year 

1276 gliders and motor gliders (+4.6%, 56 actual) 

981 privately owned (+3.3%, 31 actual) 

295 owned by clubs/cadets/societies etc. (+9.3%, 25 actual) 

Only about 3 years difference, I'd be reluctant to say too much about
trends, have to go back and dig up a really old one. But private
ownership (in absolute terms) increasing more than club ownership (and
as others will point out, only about half of the gliders in Australia
are given an annual in any one year, so it all may be moot anyway). 

gliders on the register newer than 3 years old in 2016 - (64 total) 


36 private 

28 club 

Of those 64 new gliders 18 "pure" (mostly DG1000s, and 10 of them air
cadets), 46 with some sort of motor. That's a clue to the future right
there. 

For pilot flying times, much more difficult to get a handle on.  

- Original Message -
 From: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia."
@lists.base64.com.au [2]> 
To:"Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." 
Cc: 
Sent:Wed, 1 Feb 2017 14:36:35 +1100
Subject:Re: [Aus-soaring] MEMBERSHIP AND A WORLD REVIEW

 to put a different spin on it, how about asking some different
questions

 1) how many gliders are there now?

 2) how many are privately owned (percentage change)?

 3) have the annual flown hours per pilot gone up or down?

@johnroake.com [3]>@lists.base64.com.au [4]>  
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Re: [Aus-soaring] MEMBERSHIP AND A WORLD REVIEW

[Mark Newton]

On 2 Feb 2017, at 9:11 AM, James McDowall  wrote:
> 
> It doesnt really matter how many gliders are on the register as the real 
> question is how many are active ie airworthy. This can be extrapolated from 
> the financial accounts and budgets which would indicate that approximately 
> 660 form 2's are purchased each year. Assuming all the club gliders are 
> airworthy that leaves just over 360 private aircraft are actually flown. 
> Maintainers will tell you that the majority of these fly less than 50 hours.

And yet the fleet average, according to data extracted from form-2 
applications, is over 150 hours per hull.

Go figure.

  - mark


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Re: [Aus-soaring] MEMBERSHIP AND A WORLD REVIEW

[Mark Newton]

On 2 Feb 2017, at 4:29 AM, Richard Frawley  wrote:
> 
> is there a population age cliff we are fall off?

Yes. 


   - mark



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[Aus-soaring] Fwd: Re: MEMBERSHIP AND A WORLD REVIEW

[stephenk]

 (I sent this to an individual earlier, finger trouble with webmail,
it was meant to go to the list) 
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

 Its not good news (that's why I said it was moot)

As has been pointed out elsewhere some of the aircraft on the register
may no longer be airworthy, although I don't think it is that many.
With the numbers below it indicates to me that the total number of
gliders on the register increased by 56 while there were 64 new
gliders. So there were at least 8 disappeared off the register (more
if someone imported an older glider during that time).

Decades ago, the progression of glider ownership, sort of, was new
(better! more competitive!) gliders were bought by wealthier clubs
(and some individuals), which after a time were sold into the second
hand market to poorer/smaller clubs and less well off individuals and
the big clubs/wealthy individuals bought the next round of
new/better/faster/whatever. Now there are fewer clubs (and
individuals) and the gliders which would have "trickled down" go into
... (limbo?)

If the number of new gliders being imported is less than the number
entering limbo (even if they are notionally privately owned) that is
far from good news. 

SWK
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

And I will now add:

Before people just laugh it off as " yeah, all that old low
performance stuff, no one wants that anymore, but there's still plenty
of demand for the middle performance stuff"

If we assume it is only age related, the register shows that the cut
off year for the 600 oldest gliders is 1978.
So all that "old low performance stuff" would include all the LS1s,
Cirrus, Libelles, Mosquitos, Astir CS/CS77s and Hornets and some of
the Jantars, PIK20s, ASW20s and LS3s. 

If you know of any of those types of aircraft still actively flying
that means there must be _newer_ gliders which aren't.

SWK

- Original Message -
 From: "Richard Frawley" @gmail.com> 
To:, "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." 
Cc: 
Sent:Wed, 1 Feb 2017 18:57:30 +1100
Subject:Re: [Aus-soaring] MEMBERSHIP AND A WORLD REVIEW

 some good news then. i suspect private ownership will increase for a
while yet 

On 1 Feb 2017, at 6:04 PM, steph...@internode.on.net [1] wrote:

From the aircraft register of  2013 

1220 gliders and motor gliders 

950 privately owned 

270 owned by clubs/cadets/societies etc. 

last year 

1276 gliders and motor gliders (+4.6%, 56 actual) 

981 privately owned (+3.3%, 31 actual) 

295 owned by clubs/cadets/societies etc. (+9.3%, 25 actual) 

Only about 3 years difference, I'd be reluctant to say too much about
trends, have to go back and dig up a really old one. But private
ownership (in absolute terms) increasing more than club ownership (and
as others will point out, only about half of the gliders in Australia
are given an annual in any one year, so it all may be moot anyway). 

gliders on the register newer than 3 years old in 2016 - (64 total) 


36 private 

28 club 

Of those 64 new gliders 18 "pure" (mostly DG1000s, and 10 of them air
cadets), 46 with some sort of motor. That's a clue to the future right
there. 

For pilot flying times, much more difficult to get a handle on.  

- Original Message -
 From: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia."
@lists.base64.com.au [2]> 
To:"Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." 
Cc: 
Sent:Wed, 1 Feb 2017 14:36:35 +1100
Subject:Re: [Aus-soaring] MEMBERSHIP AND A WORLD REVIEW

 to put a different spin on it, how about asking some different
questions

 1) how many gliders are there now?

 2) how many are privately owned (percentage change)?

 3) have the annual flown hours per pilot gone up or down?

@johnroake.com [3]>@lists.base64.com.au [4]>  
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Re: [Aus-soaring] MEMBERSHIP AND A WORLD REVIEW

[James McDowall]

It doesnt really matter how many gliders are on the register as the real
question is how many are active ie airworthy. This can be extrapolated from
the financial accounts and budgets which would indicate that approximately
660 form 2's are purchased each year. Assuming all the club gliders are
airworthy that leaves just over 360 private aircraft are actually flown.
Maintainers will tell you that the majority of these fly less than 50 hours.

On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 5:34 PM,  wrote:

>
>
> From the aircraft register of  2013
>
> 1220 gliders and motor gliders
>
> 950 privately owned
>
> 270 owned by clubs/cadets/societies etc.
>
>
> last year
>
> 1276 gliders and motor gliders (+4.6%, 56 actual)
>
> 981 privately owned (+3.3%, 31 actual)
>
> 295 owned by clubs/cadets/societies etc. (+9.3%, 25 actual)
>
>
> Only about 3 years difference, I'd be reluctant to say too much about
> trends, have to go back and dig up a really old one. But private ownership
> (in absolute terms) increasing more than club ownership (and as others will
> point out, only about half of the gliders in Australia are given an
> annual in any one year, so it all may be moot anyway).
>
> gliders on the register newer than 3 years old in 2016 - (64 total)
>
> 36 private
>
> 28 club
>
> Of those 64 new gliders 18 "pure" (mostly DG1000s, and 10 of them air
> cadets), 46 with some sort of motor. That's a clue to the future right
> there.
>
>
>
> For pilot flying times, much more difficult to get a handle on.
>
>
>
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From:
> "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." @
> lists.base64.com.au>
>
> To:
> "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia."
> Cc:
>
> Sent:
> Wed, 1 Feb 2017 14:36:35 +1100
> Subject:
> Re: [Aus-soaring] MEMBERSHIP AND A WORLD REVIEW
>
>
> to put a different spin on it, how about asking some different questions
>
> 1) how many gliders are there now?
>
> 2) how many are privately owned (percentage change)?
>
> 3) have the annual flown hours per pilot gone up or down?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> @johnroake.com>@lists.base64.com.au>
>
>
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Re: [Aus-soaring] MEMBERSHIP AND A WORLD REVIEW

[Richard Frawley]

well, when i membership sec of Southern Cross more than 1/3 of members had 
instructor ratings. mind you only a fraction of that were active. many were 
over 70 years old, i dont remember but maybe half?

what percentage of australian members are over 75 now?

is there a population age cliff we are fall off?







> On 2 Feb 2017, at 12:02 AM, Mark Newton  wrote:
> 
> Registration doesn’t expire, so an aircraft stays on the register even if 
> it’s wrecked in a blown-over trailer in a corner of a gliding field that its 
> deceased owner hasn’t visited for ten years.
> 
> The real point of interest is the number of form-2 kits the GFA sells each 
> year.
> 
> Mandy Temple’s “Mande-news” on June 10 last year included an extract from the 
> GFA’s Salesforce database, which said there were 738 gliders with a current 
> form-2 as of that date.
> 
> So - slightly over half of the total number of registered gliders are 
> airworthy.
> 
> The same extract said 2584 members flew GFA aircraft for 115,100 hours from 
> 68,200 launches in 2015-16 (based on form-2 returns).  That means every 
> airworthy GFA aircraft averaged 156 hours and 92 launches, making the average 
> GFA aircraft flight 102 minutes long.
> 
> Not sure what to make of that. Must be some absolute bladder-buster long 
> endurance flights to compensate for the thousands of 6 minute circuits all 
> the winch clubs spend most of the winter flying.
> 
> Also means the average GFA member logs about 45 hours per year. Once again, 
> some pilots must be absolutely cranking out the hours to make up for the 
> trainees who only log between 5 and 20 hours per year.
> 
> The other weird numbers worth noting: GFA had issued 932 GPCs, and had 189 
> AEIs, 97 Level 1 instructors, 306 Level 2 instructors, and 97 Level 3 
> instructors. That’s 689 members with instructor ratings (out of 2584 total — 
> over a quarter of GFA’s membership base), and each Level 3 having their very 
> own personal Level 1 to train. 
> 
> Let me put it another way: There’s an instructor for every three 
> non-instructor GFA members.
> 
> The ratio is even stranger if you compare instructor headcount to GPC 
> holders, and observe that 689 of those 932 GPCs are actually supposed to be 
> instructors.
> 
> I reckon GFA members get instructor ratings instead of Level-2 Independent 
> Ops.  If you want to fly club aircraft whenever you want without needing 
> anyone’s permission, nearly 700 members have worked out that it’s easier to 
> get an instructor rating than a Level 2 Independent Operator rating. Also 
> easier to get a crew organized if you’re an instructor and you offer to run a 
> day.
> 
> That’s a perverse outcome, isn't it?  I mean, in an ideal world, it wouldn’t 
> be that way?
> 
>   - mark
> 
> 
> 
>> On 1 Feb 2017, at 6:04 PM, steph...@internode.on.net wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> From the aircraft register of  2013
>> 
>> 1220 gliders and motor gliders
>> 
>> 950 privately owned
>> 
>> 270 owned by clubs/cadets/societies etc.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> last year
>> 
>> 1276 gliders and motor gliders (+4.6%, 56 actual)
>> 
>> 981 privately owned (+3.3%, 31 actual)
>> 
>> 295 owned by clubs/cadets/societies etc. (+9.3%, 25 actual)
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Only about 3 years difference, I'd be reluctant to say too much about 
>> trends, have to go back and dig up a really old one. But private ownership 
>> (in absolute terms) increasing more than club ownership (and as others will 
>> point out, only about half of the gliders in Australia are given an annual 
>> in any one year, so it all may be moot anyway).
>> 
>> gliders on the register newer than 3 years old in 2016 - (64 total)
>> 
>> 36 private
>> 
>> 28 club
>> 
>> Of those 64 new gliders 18 "pure" (mostly DG1000s, and 10 of them air 
>> cadets), 46 with some sort of motor. That's a clue to the future right there.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> For pilot flying times, much more difficult to get a handle on.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> - Original Message -
>> From:
>> "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." 
>> @lists.base64.com.au>
>> 
>> To:
>> "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." 
>> Cc:
>> 
>> Sent:
>> Wed, 1 Feb 2017 14:36:35 +1100
>> Subject:
>> Re: [Aus-soaring] MEMBERSHIP AND A WORLD REVIEW
>> 
>> 
>> to put a different spin on it, how about asking some different questions
>> 
>> 1) how many gliders are there now?
>> 
>> 2) how many are privately owned (percentage change)?
>> 
>> 3) have the annual flown hours per pilot gone up or down?
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> @johnroake.com>@lists.base64.com.au>
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Re: [Aus-soaring] MEMBERSHIP AND A WORLD REVIEW

[Richard Frawley]

would it be true to say in most clubs there is not a dearth of instructors 
hanging around waiting to fly students?  generally its marginal isn't it?

> On 2 Feb 2017, at 12:26 AM, Paul Bart  wrote:
> 
> Mark Newton wrote:
> nearly 700 members have worked out that it’s easier to get an instructor 
> rating than a Level 2 Independent Operator rating. Also easier to get a crew 
> organized if you’re an instructor and you offer to run a day.
> 
> That’s a perverse outcome, isn't it?  I mean, in an ideal world, it wouldn’t 
> be that way?
> 
> 
> Well not really, at best it is a perverse supposition you have made. 
> Potentially there may be some other explanations.
> 
> 
> Cheers
> 
> 
> Paul
> 
> On 1 Feb. 2017 23:02, "Mark Newton"  wrote:
> Registration doesn’t expire, so an aircraft stays on the register even if 
> it’s wrecked in a blown-over trailer in a corner of a gliding field that its 
> deceased owner hasn’t visited for ten years.
> 
> The real point of interest is the number of form-2 kits the GFA sells each 
> year.
> 
> Mandy Temple’s “Mande-news” on June 10 last year included an extract from the 
> GFA’s Salesforce database, which said there were 738 gliders with a current 
> form-2 as of that date.
> 
> So - slightly over half of the total number of registered gliders are 
> airworthy.
> 
> The same extract said 2584 members flew GFA aircraft for 115,100 hours from 
> 68,200 launches in 2015-16 (based on form-2 returns).  That means every 
> airworthy GFA aircraft averaged 156 hours and 92 launches, making the average 
> GFA aircraft flight 102 minutes long.
> 
> Not sure what to make of that. Must be some absolute bladder-buster long 
> endurance flights to compensate for the thousands of 6 minute circuits all 
> the winch clubs spend most of the winter flying.
> 
> Also means the average GFA member logs about 45 hours per year. Once again, 
> some pilots must be absolutely cranking out the hours to make up for the 
> trainees who only log between 5 and 20 hours per year.
> 
> The other weird numbers worth noting: GFA had issued 932 GPCs, and had 189 
> AEIs, 97 Level 1 instructors, 306 Level 2 instructors, and 97 Level 3 
> instructors. That’s 689 members with instructor ratings (out of 2584 total — 
> over a quarter of GFA’s membership base), and each Level 3 having their very 
> own personal Level 1 to train. 
> 
> Let me put it another way: There’s an instructor for every three 
> non-instructor GFA members.
> 
> The ratio is even stranger if you compare instructor headcount to GPC 
> holders, and observe that 689 of those 932 GPCs are actually supposed to be 
> instructors.
> 
> I reckon GFA members get instructor ratings instead of Level-2 Independent 
> Ops.  If you want to fly club aircraft whenever you want without needing 
> anyone’s permission, nearly 700 members have worked out that it’s easier to 
> get an instructor rating than a Level 2 Independent Operator rating. Also 
> easier to get a crew organized if you’re an instructor and you offer to run a 
> day.
> 
> That’s a perverse outcome, isn't it?  I mean, in an ideal world, it wouldn’t 
> be that way?
> 
>   - mark
> 
> 
> 
>> On 1 Feb 2017, at 6:04 PM, steph...@internode.on.net wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> From the aircraft register of  2013
>> 
>> 1220 gliders and motor gliders
>> 
>> 950 privately owned
>> 
>> 270 owned by clubs/cadets/societies etc.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> last year
>> 
>> 1276 gliders and motor gliders (+4.6%, 56 actual)
>> 
>> 981 privately owned (+3.3%, 31 actual)
>> 
>> 295 owned by clubs/cadets/societies etc. (+9.3%, 25 actual)
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Only about 3 years difference, I'd be reluctant to say too much about 
>> trends, have to go back and dig up a really old one. But private ownership 
>> (in absolute terms) increasing more than club ownership (and as others will 
>> point out, only about half of the gliders in Australia are given an annual 
>> in any one year, so it all may be moot anyway).
>> 
>> gliders on the register newer than 3 years old in 2016 - (64 total)
>> 
>> 36 private
>> 
>> 28 club
>> 
>> Of those 64 new gliders 18 "pure" (mostly DG1000s, and 10 of them air 
>> cadets), 46 with some sort of motor. That's a clue to the future right there.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> For pilot flying times, much more difficult to get a handle on.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> - Original Message -
>> From:
>> "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." 
>> @lists.base64.com.au>
>> 
>> To:
>> "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." 
>> Cc:
>> 
>> Sent:
>> Wed, 1 Feb 2017 14:36:35 +1100
>> Subject:
>> Re: [Aus-soaring] MEMBERSHIP AND A WORLD REVIEW
>> 
>> 
>> to put a different spin on it, how about asking some different questions
>> 
>> 1) how many gliders are there now?
>> 
>> 2) how many are privately owned (percentage change)?
>> 
>> 3) have the annual flown hours per pilot gone up or down?
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 

Re: [Aus-soaring] MEMBERSHIP AND A WORLD REVIEW

[Paul Bart]

Mark Newton wrote:
nearly 700 members have worked out that it’s easier to get an instructor
rating than a Level 2 Independent Operator rating. Also easier to get a
crew organized if you’re an instructor and you offer to run a day.

That’s a perverse outcome, isn't it?  I mean, in an ideal world, it
wouldn’t be that way?


Well not really, at best it is a perverse supposition you have made.
Potentially there may be some other explanations.


Cheers


Paul

On 1 Feb. 2017 23:02, "Mark Newton"  wrote:

Registration doesn’t expire, so an aircraft stays on the register even if
it’s wrecked in a blown-over trailer in a corner of a gliding field that
its deceased owner hasn’t visited for ten years.

The real point of interest is the number of form-2 kits the GFA sells each
year.

Mandy Temple’s “Mande-news” on June 10 last year included an extract from
the GFA’s Salesforce database, which said there were 738 gliders with a
current form-2 as of that date.

So - slightly over half of the total number of registered gliders are
airworthy.

The same extract said 2584 members flew GFA aircraft for 115,100 hours from
68,200 launches in 2015-16 (based on form-2 returns).  That means every
airworthy GFA aircraft *averaged* 156 hours and 92 launches, making
the *average
*GFA aircraft flight 102 minutes long.

Not sure what to make of that. Must be some absolute bladder-buster long
endurance flights to compensate for the thousands of 6 minute circuits all
the winch clubs spend most of the winter flying.

Also means the average GFA member logs about 45 hours per year. Once again,
some pilots must be absolutely cranking out the hours to make up for the
trainees who only log between 5 and 20 hours per year.

The other weird numbers worth noting: GFA had issued 932 GPCs, and had 189
AEIs, 97 Level 1 instructors, 306 Level 2 instructors, and 97 Level 3
instructors. That’s 689 members with instructor ratings (out of 2584 total
— over a quarter of GFA’s membership base), and each Level 3 having their
very own personal Level 1 to train.

Let me put it another way: There’s an instructor for every three
non-instructor GFA members.

The ratio is even stranger if you compare instructor headcount to GPC
holders, and observe that 689 of those 932 GPCs are actually supposed to be
instructors.

I reckon GFA members get instructor ratings instead of Level-2 Independent
Ops.  If you want to fly club aircraft whenever you want without needing
anyone’s permission, nearly 700 members have worked out that it’s easier to
get an instructor rating than a Level 2 Independent Operator rating. Also
easier to get a crew organized if you’re an instructor and you offer to run
a day.

That’s a perverse outcome, isn't it?  I mean, in an ideal world, it
wouldn’t be that way?

  - mark



On 1 Feb 2017, at 6:04 PM, steph...@internode.on.net wrote:



>From the aircraft register of  2013

1220 gliders and motor gliders

950 privately owned

270 owned by clubs/cadets/societies etc.


last year

1276 gliders and motor gliders (+4.6%, 56 actual)

981 privately owned (+3.3%, 31 actual)

295 owned by clubs/cadets/societies etc. (+9.3%, 25 actual)


Only about 3 years difference, I'd be reluctant to say too much about
trends, have to go back and dig up a really old one. But private ownership
(in absolute terms) increasing more than club ownership (and as others will
point out, only about half of the gliders in Australia are given an
annual in any one year, so it all may be moot anyway).

gliders on the register newer than 3 years old in 2016 - (64 total)

36 private

28 club

Of those 64 new gliders 18 "pure" (mostly DG1000s, and 10 of them air
cadets), 46 with some sort of motor. That's a clue to the future right
there.



For pilot flying times, much more difficult to get a handle on.





- Original Message -
From:
"Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." @
lists.base64.com.au>

To:
"Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia."
Cc:

Sent:
Wed, 1 Feb 2017 14:36:35 +1100
Subject:
Re: [Aus-soaring] MEMBERSHIP AND A WORLD REVIEW


to put a different spin on it, how about asking some different questions

1) how many gliders are there now?

2) how many are privately owned (percentage change)?

3) have the annual flown hours per pilot gone up or down?







@johnroake.com>@lists.base64.com.au>

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Re: [Aus-soaring] MEMBERSHIP AND A WORLD REVIEW

[Mike Borgelt]

That was an hour or two after finding one that had been blown over out the back 
of a hangar a couple of years before. It was still on the register. A 
Kookaburra BTW.

Mike

> On 1 Feb 2017, at 9:07 PM, Mike Borgelt  wrote:
> 
> I've pushed a hangar door open and had pieces of a glider still on the 
> register fall out of the rafters
> 
> Mike
> 
>> On 1 Feb 2017, at 9:02 PM, Mark Newton  wrote:
>> 
>> Registration doesn’t expire, so an aircraft stays on the register even if 
>> it’s wrecked in a blown-over trailer in a corner of a gliding field that its 
>> deceased owner hasn’t visited for ten years.
>> 
>> The real point of interest is the number of form-2 kits the GFA sells each 
>> year.
>> 
>> Mandy Temple’s “Mande-news” on June 10 last year included an extract from 
>> the GFA’s Salesforce database, which said there were 738 gliders with a 
>> current form-2 as of that date.
>> 
>> So - slightly over half of the total number of registered gliders are 
>> airworthy.
>> 
>> The same extract said 2584 members flew GFA aircraft for 115,100 hours from 
>> 68,200 launches in 2015-16 (based on form-2 returns).  That means every 
>> airworthy GFA aircraft averaged 156 hours and 92 launches, making the 
>> average GFA aircraft flight 102 minutes long.
>> 
>> Not sure what to make of that. Must be some absolute bladder-buster long 
>> endurance flights to compensate for the thousands of 6 minute circuits all 
>> the winch clubs spend most of the winter flying.
>> 
>> Also means the average GFA member logs about 45 hours per year. Once again, 
>> some pilots must be absolutely cranking out the hours to make up for the 
>> trainees who only log between 5 and 20 hours per year.
>> 
>> The other weird numbers worth noting: GFA had issued 932 GPCs, and had 189 
>> AEIs, 97 Level 1 instructors, 306 Level 2 instructors, and 97 Level 3 
>> instructors. That’s 689 members with instructor ratings (out of 2584 total — 
>> over a quarter of GFA’s membership base), and each Level 3 having their very 
>> own personal Level 1 to train. 
>> 
>> Let me put it another way: There’s an instructor for every three 
>> non-instructor GFA members.
>> 
>> The ratio is even stranger if you compare instructor headcount to GPC 
>> holders, and observe that 689 of those 932 GPCs are actually supposed to be 
>> instructors.
>> 
>> I reckon GFA members get instructor ratings instead of Level-2 Independent 
>> Ops.  If you want to fly club aircraft whenever you want without needing 
>> anyone’s permission, nearly 700 members have worked out that it’s easier to 
>> get an instructor rating than a Level 2 Independent Operator rating. Also 
>> easier to get a crew organized if you’re an instructor and you offer to run 
>> a day.
>> 
>> That’s a perverse outcome, isn't it?  I mean, in an ideal world, it wouldn’t 
>> be that way?
>> 
>>   - mark
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On 1 Feb 2017, at 6:04 PM, steph...@internode.on.net wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> From the aircraft register of  2013
>>> 
>>> 1220 gliders and motor gliders
>>> 
>>> 950 privately owned
>>> 
>>> 270 owned by clubs/cadets/societies etc.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> last year
>>> 
>>> 1276 gliders and motor gliders (+4.6%, 56 actual)
>>> 
>>> 981 privately owned (+3.3%, 31 actual)
>>> 
>>> 295 owned by clubs/cadets/societies etc. (+9.3%, 25 actual)
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Only about 3 years difference, I'd be reluctant to say too much about 
>>> trends, have to go back and dig up a really old one. But private ownership 
>>> (in absolute terms) increasing more than club ownership (and as others will 
>>> point out, only about half of the gliders in Australia are given an annual 
>>> in any one year, so it all may be moot anyway).
>>> 
>>> gliders on the register newer than 3 years old in 2016 - (64 total)
>>> 
>>> 36 private
>>> 
>>> 28 club
>>> 
>>> Of those 64 new gliders 18 "pure" (mostly DG1000s, and 10 of them air 
>>> cadets), 46 with some sort of motor. That's a clue to the future right 
>>> there.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> For pilot flying times, much more difficult to get a handle on.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> - Original Message -
>>> From:
>>> "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." 
>>> @lists.base64.com.au>
>>> 
>>> To:
>>> "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." 
>>> Cc:
>>> 
>>> Sent:
>>> Wed, 1 Feb 2017 14:36:35 +1100
>>> Subject:
>>> Re: [Aus-soaring] MEMBERSHIP AND A WORLD REVIEW
>>> 
>>> 
>>> to put a different spin on it, how about asking some different questions
>>> 
>>> 1) how many gliders are there now?
>>> 
>>> 2) how many are privately owned (percentage change)?
>>> 
>>> 3) have the annual flown hours per pilot gone up or down?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> @johnroake.com>@lists.base64.com.au>
>>> ___
>>> Aus-soaring mailing list
>>> Aus-soaring@lists.base64.com.au
>>> 

Re: [Aus-soaring] MEMBERSHIP AND A WORLD REVIEW

[Mike Borgelt]

I've pushed a hangar door open and had pieces of a glider still on the register 
fall out of the rafters

Mike

> On 1 Feb 2017, at 9:02 PM, Mark Newton  wrote:
> 
> Registration doesn’t expire, so an aircraft stays on the register even if 
> it’s wrecked in a blown-over trailer in a corner of a gliding field that its 
> deceased owner hasn’t visited for ten years.
> 
> The real point of interest is the number of form-2 kits the GFA sells each 
> year.
> 
> Mandy Temple’s “Mande-news” on June 10 last year included an extract from the 
> GFA’s Salesforce database, which said there were 738 gliders with a current 
> form-2 as of that date.
> 
> So - slightly over half of the total number of registered gliders are 
> airworthy.
> 
> The same extract said 2584 members flew GFA aircraft for 115,100 hours from 
> 68,200 launches in 2015-16 (based on form-2 returns).  That means every 
> airworthy GFA aircraft averaged 156 hours and 92 launches, making the average 
> GFA aircraft flight 102 minutes long.
> 
> Not sure what to make of that. Must be some absolute bladder-buster long 
> endurance flights to compensate for the thousands of 6 minute circuits all 
> the winch clubs spend most of the winter flying.
> 
> Also means the average GFA member logs about 45 hours per year. Once again, 
> some pilots must be absolutely cranking out the hours to make up for the 
> trainees who only log between 5 and 20 hours per year.
> 
> The other weird numbers worth noting: GFA had issued 932 GPCs, and had 189 
> AEIs, 97 Level 1 instructors, 306 Level 2 instructors, and 97 Level 3 
> instructors. That’s 689 members with instructor ratings (out of 2584 total — 
> over a quarter of GFA’s membership base), and each Level 3 having their very 
> own personal Level 1 to train. 
> 
> Let me put it another way: There’s an instructor for every three 
> non-instructor GFA members.
> 
> The ratio is even stranger if you compare instructor headcount to GPC 
> holders, and observe that 689 of those 932 GPCs are actually supposed to be 
> instructors.
> 
> I reckon GFA members get instructor ratings instead of Level-2 Independent 
> Ops.  If you want to fly club aircraft whenever you want without needing 
> anyone’s permission, nearly 700 members have worked out that it’s easier to 
> get an instructor rating than a Level 2 Independent Operator rating. Also 
> easier to get a crew organized if you’re an instructor and you offer to run a 
> day.
> 
> That’s a perverse outcome, isn't it?  I mean, in an ideal world, it wouldn’t 
> be that way?
> 
>   - mark
> 
> 
> 
>> On 1 Feb 2017, at 6:04 PM, steph...@internode.on.net wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> From the aircraft register of  2013
>> 
>> 1220 gliders and motor gliders
>> 
>> 950 privately owned
>> 
>> 270 owned by clubs/cadets/societies etc.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> last year
>> 
>> 1276 gliders and motor gliders (+4.6%, 56 actual)
>> 
>> 981 privately owned (+3.3%, 31 actual)
>> 
>> 295 owned by clubs/cadets/societies etc. (+9.3%, 25 actual)
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Only about 3 years difference, I'd be reluctant to say too much about 
>> trends, have to go back and dig up a really old one. But private ownership 
>> (in absolute terms) increasing more than club ownership (and as others will 
>> point out, only about half of the gliders in Australia are given an annual 
>> in any one year, so it all may be moot anyway).
>> 
>> gliders on the register newer than 3 years old in 2016 - (64 total)
>> 
>> 36 private
>> 
>> 28 club
>> 
>> Of those 64 new gliders 18 "pure" (mostly DG1000s, and 10 of them air 
>> cadets), 46 with some sort of motor. That's a clue to the future right there.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> For pilot flying times, much more difficult to get a handle on.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> - Original Message -
>> From:
>> "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." 
>> @lists.base64.com.au>
>> 
>> To:
>> "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." 
>> Cc:
>> 
>> Sent:
>> Wed, 1 Feb 2017 14:36:35 +1100
>> Subject:
>> Re: [Aus-soaring] MEMBERSHIP AND A WORLD REVIEW
>> 
>> 
>> to put a different spin on it, how about asking some different questions
>> 
>> 1) how many gliders are there now?
>> 
>> 2) how many are privately owned (percentage change)?
>> 
>> 3) have the annual flown hours per pilot gone up or down?
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> @johnroake.com>@lists.base64.com.au>
>> ___
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>> Aus-soaring@lists.base64.com.au
>> http://lists.base64.com.au/listinfo/aus-soaring
> 
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Re: [Aus-soaring] MEMBERSHIP AND A WORLD REVIEW

[Mark Newton]

Registration doesn’t expire, so an aircraft stays on the register even if it’s 
wrecked in a blown-over trailer in a corner of a gliding field that its 
deceased owner hasn’t visited for ten years.

The real point of interest is the number of form-2 kits the GFA sells each year.

Mandy Temple’s “Mande-news” on June 10 last year included an extract from the 
GFA’s Salesforce database, which said there were 738 gliders with a current 
form-2 as of that date.

So - slightly over half of the total number of registered gliders are airworthy.

The same extract said 2584 members flew GFA aircraft for 115,100 hours from 
68,200 launches in 2015-16 (based on form-2 returns).  That means every 
airworthy GFA aircraft averaged 156 hours and 92 launches, making the average 
GFA aircraft flight 102 minutes long.

Not sure what to make of that. Must be some absolute bladder-buster long 
endurance flights to compensate for the thousands of 6 minute circuits all the 
winch clubs spend most of the winter flying.

Also means the average GFA member logs about 45 hours per year. Once again, 
some pilots must be absolutely cranking out the hours to make up for the 
trainees who only log between 5 and 20 hours per year.

The other weird numbers worth noting: GFA had issued 932 GPCs, and had 189 
AEIs, 97 Level 1 instructors, 306 Level 2 instructors, and 97 Level 3 
instructors. That’s 689 members with instructor ratings (out of 2584 total — 
over a quarter of GFA’s membership base), and each Level 3 having their very 
own personal Level 1 to train. 

Let me put it another way: There’s an instructor for every three non-instructor 
GFA members.

The ratio is even stranger if you compare instructor headcount to GPC holders, 
and observe that 689 of those 932 GPCs are actually supposed to be instructors.

I reckon GFA members get instructor ratings instead of Level-2 Independent Ops. 
 If you want to fly club aircraft whenever you want without needing anyone’s 
permission, nearly 700 members have worked out that it’s easier to get an 
instructor rating than a Level 2 Independent Operator rating. Also easier to 
get a crew organized if you’re an instructor and you offer to run a day.

That’s a perverse outcome, isn't it?  I mean, in an ideal world, it wouldn’t be 
that way?

  - mark



> On 1 Feb 2017, at 6:04 PM, steph...@internode.on.net wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From the aircraft register of  2013
> 
> 1220 gliders and motor gliders
> 
> 950 privately owned
> 
> 270 owned by clubs/cadets/societies etc.
> 
> 
> 
> last year
> 
> 1276 gliders and motor gliders (+4.6%, 56 actual)
> 
> 981 privately owned (+3.3%, 31 actual)
> 
> 295 owned by clubs/cadets/societies etc. (+9.3%, 25 actual)
> 
> 
> 
> Only about 3 years difference, I'd be reluctant to say too much about trends, 
> have to go back and dig up a really old one. But private ownership (in 
> absolute terms) increasing more than club ownership (and as others will point 
> out, only about half of the gliders in Australia are given an annual in any 
> one year, so it all may be moot anyway).
> 
> gliders on the register newer than 3 years old in 2016 - (64 total)
> 
> 36 private
> 
> 28 club
> 
> Of those 64 new gliders 18 "pure" (mostly DG1000s, and 10 of them air 
> cadets), 46 with some sort of motor. That's a clue to the future right there.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For pilot flying times, much more difficult to get a handle on.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - Original Message -
> From:
> "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." @lists.base64.com.au>
> 
> To:
> "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." 
> Cc:
> 
> Sent:
> Wed, 1 Feb 2017 14:36:35 +1100
> Subject:
> Re: [Aus-soaring] MEMBERSHIP AND A WORLD REVIEW
> 
> 
> to put a different spin on it, how about asking some different questions
> 
> 1) how many gliders are there now?
> 
> 2) how many are privately owned (percentage change)?
> 
> 3) have the annual flown hours per pilot gone up or down?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @johnroake.com>@lists.base64.com.au>
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Re: [Aus-soaring] MEMBERSHIP AND A WORLD REVIEW

[Christopher McDonnell]

So! And does anybody check?

From: Richard Frawley 
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 6:18 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. 
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] MEMBERSHIP AND A WORLD REVIEW

someone can correct me but isnt it a valid rego number that counts in this case 
as that happens when it comes into the country,  its easy to see in the GFA 
system if a form 2 has been ordered for any given rego/owner on a given year. 





On 1 Feb 2017, at 7:11 PM, Christopher McDonnell  
wrote:


  (and as others will point out, only about half of the gliders in Australia 
are given an annual in any one year, so it all may be moot anyway).

  Gee that’s a worry Stephen.

  Chris

  From: steph...@internode.on.net 
  Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 5:04 PM
  To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. 
  Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] MEMBERSHIP AND A WORLD REVIEW





  From the aircraft register of  2013

  1220 gliders and motor gliders

  950 privately owned

  270 owned by clubs/cadets/societies etc.



  last year

  1276 gliders and motor gliders (+4.6%, 56 actual)

  981 privately owned (+3.3%, 31 actual)

  295 owned by clubs/cadets/societies etc. (+9.3%, 25 actual)



  Only about 3 years difference, I'd be reluctant to say too much about trends, 
have to go back and dig up a really old one. But private ownership (in absolute 
terms) increasing more than club ownership (and as others will point out, only 
about half of the gliders in Australia are given an annual in any one year, so 
it all may be moot anyway).

  gliders on the register newer than 3 years old in 2016 - (64 total) 

  36 private

  28 club

  Of those 64 new gliders 18 "pure" (mostly DG1000s, and 10 of them air 
cadets), 46 with some sort of motor. That's a clue to the future right there.





  For pilot flying times, much more difficult to get a handle on. 








- Original Message -
From:
"Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." 
@lists.base64.com.au>

To:
"Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." 

Cc:

Sent:
Wed, 1 Feb 2017 14:36:35 +1100

Subject:
Re: [Aus-soaring] MEMBERSHIP AND A WORLD REVIEW


to put a different spin on it, how about asking some different questions

1) how many gliders are there now?

2) how many are privately owned (percentage change)?

3) have the annual flown hours per pilot gone up or down?







@johnroake.com>@lists.base64.com.au>

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Re: [Aus-soaring] MEMBERSHIP AND A WORLD REVIEW

[Richard Frawley]

someone can correct me but isnt it a valid rego number that counts in this case 
as that happens when it comes into the country,  its easy to see in the GFA 
system if a form 2 has been ordered for any given rego/owner on a given year. 





> On 1 Feb 2017, at 7:11 PM, Christopher McDonnell  
> wrote:
> 
> (and as others will point out, only about half of the gliders in Australia 
> are given an annual in any one year, so it all may be moot anyway).
>  
> Gee that’s a worry Stephen.
>  
> Chris
>  
> From: steph...@internode.on.net
> Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 5:04 PM
> To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] MEMBERSHIP AND A WORLD REVIEW
>  
>  
> 
>  
> 
> From the aircraft register of  2013
> 
> 1220 gliders and motor gliders
> 
> 950 privately owned
> 
> 270 owned by clubs/cadets/societies etc.
> 
>  
> 
> last year
> 
> 1276 gliders and motor gliders (+4.6%, 56 actual)
> 
> 981 privately owned (+3.3%, 31 actual)
> 
> 295 owned by clubs/cadets/societies etc. (+9.3%, 25 actual)
> 
>  
> 
> Only about 3 years difference, I'd be reluctant to say too much about trends, 
> have to go back and dig up a really old one. But private ownership (in 
> absolute terms) increasing more than club ownership (and as others will point 
> out, only about half of the gliders in Australia are given an annual in any 
> one year, so it all may be moot anyway).
> 
> gliders on the register newer than 3 years old in 2016 - (64 total)
> 
> 36 private
> 
> 28 club
> 
> Of those 64 new gliders 18 "pure" (mostly DG1000s, and 10 of them air 
> cadets), 46 with some sort of motor. That's a clue to the future right there.
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> For pilot flying times, much more difficult to get a handle on.
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - Original Message -
> From:
> "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." @lists.base64.com.au>
>  
> To:
> "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." 
> Cc:
>  
> Sent:
> Wed, 1 Feb 2017 14:36:35 +1100
> Subject:
> Re: [Aus-soaring] MEMBERSHIP AND A WORLD REVIEW
> 
> 
> to put a different spin on it, how about asking some different questions
> 
> 1) how many gliders are there now?
> 
> 2) how many are privately owned (percentage change)?
> 
> 3) have the annual flown hours per pilot gone up or down?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @johnroake.com>@lists.base64.com.au>
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